Transcripts

text | pdf |

---

[MUSIC PLAYING] GARY EICHTEN: And good morning. Welcome to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary Eichten, glad you could join us. If you are a white person living in the state of Minnesota, there is very little chance that you will end up in prison. Minnesota, turns out, sends fewer white people to prison than any state in the nation. And most observers say that that is a good thing.

But that seemingly enlightened attitude does not extend to racial minorities in Minnesota. If you're an African-American in Minnesota, for example, your chance of going to prison is 21 times greater than if you were a white person. That racial disparity is the widest in the nation, and goes hand in hand with a blizzard of similar statistics that seem to prove there are glaring racial disparities in Minnesota's criminal justice system. What is less clear, of course, is why that occurs and what should be done about it. This week we've been focusing on that issue here on Minnesota Public Radio.

And today on midday, as a follow up to yesterday's forum on racial disparities that we broadcast on midday, as a follow up. we're going to pull together our Color of Justice news reports that we've been broadcasting this week. We should also note, before we get started today that there is a wealth of information available on our website minnesotapublicradio.org. We're especially interested in collecting your personal stories on the issue of racial disparities in the criminal justice system. m our website is minnesotapublicradio.org.

Well OK, one thing that's clear about this issue of racial disparities, is that there is a wealth of statistics that have been gathered on the issue. But as we noted, what's less clear is what those numbers mean. We begin with an overview from Minnesota Public Radio's, Dan Olson.

DAN OLSON: The blizzard of statistics numbs the brain. The point is difficult to grasp until Tom Johnson pulls a breathtaking number out from the pile on his desk.

TOM JOHNSON: We in 1999, and in Hennepin County, you had over half of all African-American males between 18 and 30 arrested in that one year.

DAN OLSON: Tom Johnson was Hennepin County Attorney in the 1980s. He's president of the Minneapolis-based nonprofit council on crime and justice, the group putting together a new analysis of racial profiling for the Minneapolis Police Department.

The reaction of some who believe Black men commit most of the crime is the black arrest rate makes sense. Tom Johnson says the numbers don't support the presumption.

TOM JOHNSON: To use who is arrested as the gauge by which we make a decision who's committing crime isn't an accurate way of making that determination, nor would I say a fair one.

DAN OLSON: Others say the high Black arrest rate can be explained by racial profiling. Police stopping Black men for no other reason than the color of their skin in the Twin Cities and elsewhere. Ray Jefferson says his wife saw the Sheriff's deputy whip his cruiser around and start following them.

RAY JEFFERSON: My wife had made the comment, well, I think he's going to pull us over. And I tried to assure her that there was no reason that he would do that.

DAN OLSON: Saint Paul police officer, Ray Jefferson and his family were on a fishing vacation last summer at a Northern Minnesota resort. They had finished buying groceries in a nearby town. They turned onto the highway to head back to the lake when they were pulled over. The Sheriff's deputies stopped them because Jefferson wasn't wearing a seat belt.

RAY JEFFERSON: He then was kind of taken aback at that moment, once I had told him that I knew that that was not a stoppable offense, and that I knew that simply because I was an officer too.

DAN OLSON: There have been attempts to make not wearing a seat belt a stoppable offense, but lawmakers haven't approved it. Jefferson says the deputy then told him he'd pulled them over for another reason.

RAY JEFFERSON: And that was because I had a ribbon hanging from my rear view mirror.

DAN OLSON: Items hanging from a rear view mirror are considered a distraction to driving. Minnesota law prohibits them, and police can, but almost never do stop drivers because of it. Jefferson says after checking his identification, the deputy returned to the car and said he wouldn't issue a ticket this time. Sergeant Ray Jefferson, a 10-year veteran of the Saint Paul police force, a middle aged father of four, declines to talk about the many other times he's been stopped for no apparent reason other than the color of his skin, both in the Twin Cities and outstate Minnesota. He recounts this summer's episode with reluctance. As a police officer, he knows there are often good reasons, erratic driving, people who match the description of a suspect for police to stop them. But he also knows from experience, there are times when Black men are pulled over because of their race.

RAY JEFFERSON: When I take my badge and gun and hang it in the closet when I'm off duty, I expect to be treated just like any other person in this country would expect to be treated, regardless of the color of their skin.

DAN OLSON: The numbers show Black men are treated differently. During six months last year, Minneapolis Police stopped Black drivers at a rate more than twice their numbers in the population. An analysis of Saint Paul Police stops shows a similar ratio. Earlier studies show that once in the Hennepin County criminal justice system, Blacks are more likely to be charged with crimes.

When Blacks and whites are charged and convicted of similar crimes, Blacks are more likely to serve time behind bars. The result is the ratio of Blacks sent to Minnesota prisons, compared to whites, is the highest in the country. However, there's no evidence to show Blacks are more crime prone than whites. Is racial profiling Blacks stopped by police for no other reason than the color of their skin the sole reason they are disproportionately represented in Minnesota's criminal justice system?

Minneapolis Police Lieutenant Isaac de Lugo doesn't deny racial profiling happens, but he says it doesn't cause the disparity. Lieutenant de Lugo is in charge of training for Minneapolis Police. In Minneapolis and many other large cities, police track where calls come from and crime occurs often in poor neighborhoods with a large minority population. Police target their resources there. Lieutenant de Lugo says stopping people in those neighborhoods for relatively minor infractions, jaywalking, loitering, broken taillights, often stops criminals in their tracks.

ISAAC DE LUGO: It is through those stops, those officer contacts, that we do find the guns, the drugs, the felony warrants from a different state for murder, and that type of thing.

DAN OLSON: The strategy, many agree, is working. The crime rate is down. That the jail cells in courtrooms are filled with Black people supplies all the evidence many need to arrive at the conclusion Black men commit most of the crime, thus targeting a population is good police work.

DAVID HARRIS: It turns out that isn't so.

DAN OLSON: David Harris says race is a poor indicator of who commits crime. He's a University of Toledo law school professor who is one of the country's most outspoken critics of racial profiling. Harris says his and others' analysis of police records in cities where Blacks are stopped and searched more often than whites leads to a disquieting finding-- racial profiling does not lead to catching more criminals. What it does instead, Harris says, is make the innocent angry.

DAVID HARRIS: And we may say to them, well, it's not such a big deal, you should just put up with it. But the hurt and the humiliation and the anger does not go away when they know that their skin color is what is getting them picked out. No driver is perfect. And if we don't treat all drivers the same without regard to skin color, we will have an infection that begins in our body politic, and it's going to hurt a lot of the important institutions that we have, the trust and policing, belief in the rule of law. It's all on the line with this issue.

DAN OLSON: To get a picture of how a state law perpetuates racial disparity, consider the consequences for drunk driving. Most people charged with driving under the influence, Hennepin County Attorney Amy Klobuchar says, are white.

AMY KLOBUCHAR: You go to the workhouse, you may go to some treatment, you may pay some fines, but that's it. You can have 23 DWIs and not have a felony and not go to prison. Whereas if you are arrested with even a small amount of drugs, you will have a felony on your record, and that creates a disparity in how we look at two different racial groups.

DAN OLSON: There has been progress in reducing racial disparity in Minnesota's criminal justice system. However, numbers continue to show a disproportionate number of Blacks are stopped, arrested, charged, convicted, and imprisoned. Council on Crime and Justice President Tom Johnson laughs ruefully at the observation that white Minnesotans are bored with the issue of racial profiling.

TOM JOHNSON: To say that this might be something less than important or boring, it blows me apart. And I'm having a hard time, my Scandinavian juices are having a hard time not wanting to find this person and say you're wrong, let me have you pulled over for the next six nights until you start getting the idea that this might be happening because of the color of the skin and see if you don't put a foot in the side of that squad car.

DAN OLSON: The numbers collected by Tom Johnson's council on crime and justice will be used along with those being collected by courts in each of Minnesota's counties to see how far the state has come in its treatment of people of color and to see how much work remains to be done. Dan Olson, Minnesota Public Radio.

GARY EICHTEN: Much of the debate over racial disparities has focused on police practices. But in the end, it's Minnesota's judges who bear the responsibility for actually sending people to jail. Minnesota Public Radio's Elizabeth Stawicki has a report on what's happening in Minnesota's courtrooms.

ELIZABETH STAWICKI: A forthcoming study by the Minneapolis-based council on crime and justice shows the gap between Blacks and whites widens further within the state's court system. For felonies, the disparity widens from the point of arrest to sentencing. Judges court staff and prosecutors have suggested in the past that racial profiling overwhelms the courts with people of color. But in the end, it is the judges who have sent 21 people of color to prison for every white person, that's according to the council's updated numbers. Hennepin County Chief Judge, Kevin Burke.

KEVIN BURKE: It's the biggest single failure of the Justice system, because I can't give you any defensible answer as to why we're continuing to have huge numbers of African-Americans, Hispanics, or Native Americans in the Justice system, and treated, at least on the surface, disproportionately harsh.

ELIZABETH STAWICKI: Burke and other judges consider themselves sensitive to race issues, but the racial disparity has widened on their watch, that's leaving some of the best legal minds scratching their heads as to why. No one judge or prosecutor appears responsible. But criminologists and other researchers theorize that barely visible inequities exist at each stage of the criminal justice process.

Some biases in the courts might even appear race-neutral. Standards are applied to all defendants regardless of their race, but may have a disproportionate impact on people of color. These subtle biases add up and result in the high numbers of people of color in Minnesota's prisons. Hennepin County Chief Public Defender, Leonardo Castro.

LEONARDO CASTRO: From the point where we create a law to the point where we try to enforce that law from the arbitrary decisions that are made in the enforcement of those laws, and the arbitrary decisions that are made in the charging and prosecution and defense.

POLICE OFFICER: Line 14 and appearing on an A&D. I believe Ms. Clemenson has the report from probation.

RICHARD HOPPER: Public defenders appointed?

PUBLIC DEFENDER: Your Honor, may we approach?

RICHARD HOPPER: Sure.

ELIZABETH STAWICKI: Here's one stop along the criminal justice continuum where judges have discretion. Today Judge Richard Hopper hears the arraignment calendar in Hennepin County. It's a lighter morning than usual, only 90 cases. Judge Hopper must decide in a couple of minutes whether to release this woman charged with prostitution while she awaits her court date.

He has several options, he can keep her in jail, release her outright, or in the area where he has even greater discretion release her conditionally. If she meets the conditions, she remains free, if not, she goes back to jail. At such moments judges hedge their bets on whether a person will flee or commit another crime if released.

RICHARD HOPPER: I'm going to give you a chance to get going on this and redeem yourself a little bit. OK, I'm going to release you, number one. And you've got to do two things, well actually three things. OK, first of all, I'm going to place you on conditional release, which means that you have to stay [INAUDIBLE].

ELIZABETH STAWICKI: Hopper releases the woman provided she gets in touch with a group to help her leave prostitution. She must also stay in touch with the probation officer. Should she fail to meet those conditions, the judge will order her back to jail to await trial. The Council on crime and justice says early numbers from its study show people of color spend more time in jail before trial than whites arrested for the same crime, but it doesn't know why.

Hennepin county's chief public defender, Leonardo Castro, says judges use standards that value community roots when they decide who gets released before trial. For example, do you own a home, have a steady job, or have family in the area? That criteria is applied across the board to defendants of all races. But Castro says those values are based on the experiences of mostly white middle class legislators and judges.

LEONARDO CASTRO: If somebody is a new person to this country, and maybe has just started a job, we place a standard on that person of the person who grew up in this area, who's had a job for 15 years, who's got family in the area. The standards that we place on some people are not fair.

ELIZABETH STAWICKI: Judges can make as many as a dozen discretionary decisions in each criminal case. Some may appear insignificant on the surface, but they may further compound inequities in the Justice system. Tom Johnson of the Council on Crime and Justice says he'd like to analyze these decisions more thoroughly, but in the end, it may not be possible.

TOM JOHNSON: I haven't been able to pick up what happens again by race until the point of sentencing. So there are lots of decisions that are getting made in between that could have racial implications that we simply haven't been able to track.

ELIZABETH STAWICKI: But Chief Judge Kevin Burke says the state doesn't need more statistics to identify what's already known. He takes the racial disparities personally, and even suggests Hennepin may need a new chief judge. He says public officials need to take responsibility for the inequities in Minnesota's justice system.

KEVIN BURKE: I don't believe that this state is going to make progress until the chief justices, the chief judges, the mayors, the speakers of the house acknowledge that race is a key critical issue that this state needs to confront.

ELIZABETH STAWICKI: Until then, Burke says, Minnesota is like the person who's chemically dependent, but won't acknowledge a problem.

KEVIN BURKE: We incarcerate more African-Americans per capita than Alabama. But the problem is, we end up basically saying they're racist, or we stereotype people in the South as being racist, and we're not willing to accept for purposes of discussion. We have those same attitudes.

ELIZABETH STAWICKI: Acknowledging a problem may be doubly difficult for Minnesotans who have long viewed themselves as citizens of a state progressive on the issue of race. The same state that produced Hubert Humphrey, Roy Wilkins, and other civil rights pioneers, now leads the nation in the proportion of people of color it sends to prison. I'm Elizabeth Stawicki, Minnesota Public Radio.

GARY EICHTEN: Discussions of race in the criminal justice system tend to focus on the disproportionate rates at which African-Americans are arrested and jailed. But the growth of the Latino, Hmong, and Somali populations in Minnesota has broadened the scope of the discussion. Skin color, ethnicity, language and culture often complicate interactions between law enforcement and members of immigrant and refugee communities. Police and the courts are trying to adjust to the increasing diversity of Minnesota's population. But some say the changes aren't coming fast enough. Minnesota Public Radio's Brandt Williams reports.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: Over the past 10 years the Hmong, Somali, and Latino populations have sharply increased in Minnesota. Minnesota's Latino population alone has tripled, and that's having an impact on towns like Long Prairie. Many Mexican immigrants have moved to Long Prairie to work in a nearby food processing plant and work in other agriculture-based businesses.

CHILD: Hola.

JESUS PEREZ: Hola. [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

BRANDT WILLIAMS: A year and a half ago Todd County created the Hispanic Liaison Office to help improve relations between the immigrants and the townspeople. Todd County Hispanic liaison Gloria Eden helps Mexican immigrants negotiate life in a new country. Eden says immigrants tell her there's tension between Latinos and police officers.

JESUS PEREZ: [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

BRANDT WILLIAMS: Jesús Pérez has come into the Liaison Office to get a medical bill translated. He says police officers stop Mexicans just to check their immigration status. Gloria Eden interprets.

JESUS PEREZ: [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

GLORIA EDEN - INTERPRETER: They stop us because we're Mexican, and the Americans, the Americanos they don't stop us. They don't stop them, they're driving all over the place, and they don't seem to stop them.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: Eden says in a three-month span the Long Prairie police department asked for the assistance of the US Border Patrol in 17 traffic stops involving Latinos. 13 of the stops resulted in deportations.

STEVE NEET: Are we agents for the Border Patrol, absolutely not.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: Long Prairie Police Chief, Steve Neet says his officers used a border patrol office in Grand Forks, North Dakota to identify people who were not carrying ID. He says sometimes they call in the border patrol because some of its agents speak Spanish, and can interpret conversations between officers and offenders. The long Prairie police force has six full-time and four part-time officers. Neet says his officers don't target Hispanics, but he says sometimes cultural differences lead to misunderstandings.

STEVE NEET: If your name is Juan Rodriguez Mendoza, that may be your correct name, but on the other hand, how it's interpreted and how it's translated to a piece of paper may be different than what it's supposed to be. They might say Juan Mendoza Rodriguez.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: Neet says his officers have been learning Spanish in order to communicate better with Hispanic residents. The Latino population in Long Prairie has exploded only within the past five years. However, Hmong immigrants have been in Minnesota for many years.

Hmong people make up the majority of the state's Asian-American population, and most of them live in Saint Paul. The presence of Asian gangs in the city has led to a closer contact between the police and the Hmong community.

LIL BONE: [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

BRANDT WILLIAMS: The Hmong American partnership sponsors programs which reach out to Saint Paul's Asian gang members. A group of gang members meet on a regular basis at the Hmong American Partnership Offices in Saint Paul. Tonight, six boys aged 15 through 17 talk with a social worker about family issues. When asked about their experiences with the police, the Hmong boys say police officers, even the Asian officers single them out.

LIL BONE: If there's three or four is in the car or something, they'll pull you over.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: This young man calls himself Lil Bone. He's 17, and wisps of a mustache and goatee poke from his face.

LIL BONE: I feel like they're being racist or something, because if it's white people in the car, three or four five people in the car, they don't do that. If it's Asian, they're going to pull it over.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: In an attempt to foster closer relations with its Asian population, the Saint Paul Police Department has recruited about 20 Asian-American officers, and all Saint Paul Police officers are required to take an hour and a half awareness course on Hmong culture. Both Minneapolis and Saint Paul Police departments have compiled data on the race of persons stopped by police officers. In both cities, Blacks and Latinos are pulled over at rates disproportionately higher than their populations. Asian-Americans were pulled over in numbers nearly equal to their presence in the two cities.

There's no breakdown into Hmong or Somali figures in each city. However, some Somalis say they've been mistreated by law enforcement officers.

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

A group of Somali men meet and greet each other near the door of Hiiraan Publishing, located just outside downtown Minneapolis. This is the Office of Dr. Hassan Abukar, president of the six-year-old publishing company. His company started publishing the Somali paper, Warsan, and a magazine called Bridging People during the '90s, when Somalis began coming to Minnesota in large numbers. Abukar says for the most part police treat Somalis fairly. However, he acknowledges there is tension between Somalis and law enforcement.

HASSAN ABUKAR: Newcomers, they have their own cultures, own religions, own way of doing things culturally and all this might be different from what's going on here and this kind of situation creates frictions.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: Some Somalis say FBI agents have entered and searched their homes following the terrorist attacks of September 11. Police officials in Minneapolis are making efforts to build ties with the Somalis. The Department hired a Citywide liaison two years ago. Minneapolis Police inspector Sharon Lubinski says officers are learning to be more culturally sensitive to members of the immigrant and refugee communities.

SHARON LUBINSKI: It is important that officers understand there might be different things to remember so that a crime victim that you're dealing with feels like they're being respected.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: One of the biggest challenges facing Somalis, Hmong, and Latinos is the language barrier. Judge Tanya Bransford serves on the Minnesota Supreme Court's Multicultural, Diversity and Racial Fairness in the Courts committee. The committee oversees the implementation of recommendations made by the state Supreme court's racial bias task force. In 1993, the court reported that racial bias permeates all of Minnesota's criminal justice system. She says the demand for interpreters has put a financial strain on the system, but she says it's worth it. Bransford says Minnesota courts have made some progress, especially in the area of interpreters.

TANYA BRANSFORD: However, there's still the disparate number of people of color that are imprisoned, so we haven't made any progress there, where I think the stats are one of the worst states in the nation with regards to the disparity, compared to the number of people of color in the community, compared to those that are actually in prison.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: Since January, the courts have been recording racial data on all criminal, juvenile, and traffic cases which require an appearance before a judge. Bransford says she hopes the data collection will help the courts find the source of the disparities, a disparity which sends 21 people of color to prison for every one white person. Meanwhile, she says the committee will continue to press for more changes, such as the hiring of more bilingual personnel. I'm Brandt Williams, Minnesota Public Radio.

GARY EICHTEN: If you just joined us, we're focusing this hour on racial disparities in Minnesota's criminal justice system, pulling together the color of Justice reports that we've been broadcasting on Minnesota Public Radio this week. Just a reminder, there's lots more information on this issue available on our website, minnesotapublicradio.org. We are especially interested in collecting your personal stories on this issue, so do log on and participate, minnesotapublicradio.org.

We will continue with our color of Justice reports in just a couple of minutes. First, a reminder that broadcast of Minnesota Public Radio's reports this week on The Color of Justice are supported in part by the Minneapolis Foundation, a center for giving, connecting resources with opportunities to benefit Minnesota. Also, programs on Minnesota Public Radio are paid for by the annual support of listeners like you. Click and join at minnesotapublicradio.org.

ANNOUNCER: The O'Shaughnessy is proud to present Jazz Dance by Danny Buraczeski November 16 through 18, unveiling two new works and the revival of Swing Concerto. The New York Times has proclaimed the Jazz Dance troupe a triumph. For tickets to an unforgettable evening of dance, call the O'Shaughnessy at 651-690-6921. Minnesota Public Radio members receive a discount on tickets. That's jazz dance by Danny Buraczeski, Friday through Sunday at the O'Shaughnessy.

GARY EICHTEN: Time now for news headlines. Here's Steven John.

STEVEN JOHN: Thank you, Gary. President Bush and Russian President Vladimir Putin ended three days of Summit meetings today. The two leaders had warm praise for each other, but revealed no sign of a deal sought by the United States to pave the way for a national missile defense system. Authorities are investigating whether turbulence and the material used to make the tail were a deadly combination in the crash of American Airlines flight 587. The use of composite materials in the tail and wake turbulence from another jet are considered leading factors in Monday's crash. The Pentagon says Taliban fighters and followers of Osama bin Laden are apparently making a stand in Northern Afghanistan, in the city of Kunduz.

US warplanes are targeting the last pocket of Taliban resistance in the region and opposition fighters are poised to move in. Elsewhere in Afghanistan US airstrikes on two buildings killed some senior Taliban and al-Qaeda leaders. Lawmakers say they've made progress on making the nation's airports and planes safer.

House and Senate negotiators say they've reached a tentative deal on aviation security legislation, they're still working on the details. A Northwest Airlines spokesperson says two security managers have been suspended following a breach that shut down Seattle-Tacoma International Airport for two hours this week. Planes at the gate and all passenger concourses were evacuated Tuesday after a food service worker apparently misunderstood his security personnel and went through a checkpoint after being asked to stop. She was stopped shortly afterward and nothing illegal was found.

Minnesota State Senator Becky Laurie is touring the state today to announce her bid for governor. The DFLer from Carrick made her first stop in Duluth where she spoke at a YWCA early childhood education program. Partly to mostly sunny and mild across the state today with temperatures ranging from the upper 50s in the North to upper 60s in the South. It's already 64 Marshall, in Austin 55 degrees, Saint Cloud with 53, International Falls 51. And in the Twin Cities, it's sunny and 56. Gary that's the latest from the newsroom.

GARY EICHTEN: All right, thank you, Steven. It's about 27 minutes before 12:00, and this is Midday on Minnesota Public Radio. This hour we're focusing on racial disparities in Minnesota's criminal justice system. Of course, all week we've been broadcasting a series of reports on this subject, the title of the series The Color of justice. And today we've packaged those stories together for those of you who may have missed some of them. We should also note that there's lots more information available on our website.

Now no question, most of the attention on racial profiling and racial disparities is focused on the situation in the Twin Cities. But those disparities are also evident in rural counties with large minority populations. In Beltrami County in Northern Minnesota about 20% of the population is American Indian, about 20%, but Indians make up nearly half of the people who get arrested and put in jail. Why this statistical disparity? Well Main Street Radio's Dan Gunderson found out that there's no easy answer to that question.

DAN GUNDERSON: It's Monday morning in Beltrami, County District court. Most of the orange-suited jail inmates here for arraignment on various charges are American Indian, that's typical in this northern Minnesota courtroom. The court keeps no race-based statistics, but spot checks over six months found more than half of those appearing in Beltrami County court are American Indians. Those American Indians are likely to be represented by public defenders, like Christine Kohler.

CHRISTINE KOHLER: In my practice as a public defender, representing Native American clients in Beltrami County, I believe that they are treated more harshly or more severely than a white client who can pay his lawyer.

DAN GUNDERSON: Kohler is chief public defender for the Ninth Judicial District , she claims racial bias was evident in the courtroom on this day. Two people appeared before the same judge on drunk driving charges. The White man was released without bail, but the prosecutor asked for $1,000 bail for the American Indian man. Kohler pointed out the disparity and convinced the judge to change his mind and release the Indian man without bail. She says had someone not challenged the judge, the Indian man would be sitting in jail awaiting a court date.

CHRISTINE KOHLER: By the time the court date came up, the Native American man could have lost his job, could have had family implications, and has lost his liberty, whereas the White man, if that situation had played out the way it could have yesterday, would not have suffered any of those consequences. I don't see any justice in that.

DAN GUNDERSON: Kohler says this is typical of what she calls a different standard for American Indians. She believes her Indian clients often receive harsher sentences than their white neighbors. Any statistical analysis to support or discount her allegation is extremely difficult, because the courts keep no comparative data.

But Beltrami County attorney, Tim Faver, bristles at the suggestion his office treats American Indians differently. Faver, a slim gray haired man with a deliberative air, has been County attorney since 1989. He says he's made clear to his staff, race is not to be a factor in prosecutorial decisions. Faver says if there is racial bias, it's incumbent on victims to challenge the system.

TIM FAVER: File a motion, we'll go to court, we'll litigate it, judge will make a decision. And if the judge says, cops you screwed up, prosecutor you screwed, up I accept that. But someone says I'm being treated this way because of my race, I can't just say, well OK, then fine dismiss the case.

DAN GUNDERSON: Faver says he can only recall one race-based complaint being filed with his office. He acknowledges racial bias exists, but he says the bias is usually subtle and difficult to identify. Faver says he wonders if claims of bias are often more perception than reality. The perception of judicial bias is most often based on contact with law enforcement, American Indians in Beltrami County complain about dreamcatcher stops.

Police make a traffic stop because a dreamcatcher hanging from the rear view mirror blocks the driver's vision and violates state law. No one can say whether American Indians are more likely to be stopped for such violations. Again, no data is kept to support or disprove the allegations.

But there is no dispute about the raw number of Indians in the Justice system. Everyone agrees American Indians are far more likely to be arrested and jailed than their white neighbors in Beltrami County. But Beltrami County Sheriff Keith Winger says racial profiling is not the reason.

KEITH WINGER: Because it happens in places like Los Angeles or Minneapolis, then in some cases, there's an assumption made that it happens in Beltrami County too. I've been sheriff for three years, and I have had complaints against officers. I have not had one complaint against an officer based on race.

DAN GUNDERSON: Sheriff Winger is a soft spoken man who grew up in Beltrami County. He says to conclude racial profiling is the reason a disproportionate number of American Indians are arrested is simplistic.

KEITH WINGER: Nobody wants to come right out and say, well, the reason it's disproportionate is because they're committing more crimes, that's not a very popular thing to say. And I wouldn't say that unless I brought up a lot of other things, those contributing causes.

DAN GUNDERSON: The Sheriff says poverty, alcohol, and despair are contributing social problems that won't be solved by calling his officers racist. The flat denial of racial profiling by law enforcement causes Joe Day to shake his head in frustration. Day heads the Minnesota Indian Affairs Council his office is in Bemidji. Day contends he's witnessed racial profiling.

He says at a community event, a Sheriff's deputy admitted he was running computer checks only on tribal license plates. Day says the issue is a complex mix of white racism and Indian social problems. He says American Indians feel they have been mistreated by the system for so long, frustration often leads to confrontations when Indians encounter law enforcement. He says those conflicts only deepen the racial divisions.

JOE DAY: And the analogy is you kicked the dog, so long it's going to turn around and bite you. And that's where I see this relationship today.

DAN GUNDERSON: Law enforcement officials say they are reaching out to minorities. The Sheriff says he participates in the Bemidji Race Relations Committee, but he says if Indians don't challenge perceived injustice, wrongs cannot be righted. Joe Day says that's like telling a crime victim it's their fault they were assaulted. He says many American Indians have simply given up on the judicial system.

JOE DAY: The philosophy from the American Indian perspective is, why go up and file a complaint, it's not going to go anywhere anyway, it'll get shoved underneath the rug, or nothing will improve if we do complain. And a matter of fact, if we do complain there might be some retribution.

DAN GUNDERSON: Day says the obviously disproportionate number of American Indians in the Justice system in Beltrami County should be considered a crisis. Instead he says, most white people are simply indifferent to the plight of Indians. Some local leaders are aware of the problem. Beltrami County Board Chairman, Jim Heltzer says he was shocked at the number of American Indians in the County jail. He's pushing an initiative to significantly increase County spending for chemical dependency treatment.

And County commissioner Quentin Fairbanks wants a complete examination of the judicial system. Fairbanks grew up on the Red Lake Reservation. After a stint in the army, he was a Minnesota State trooper for many years. Fairbanks is an enrolled member of the Red Lake Band and works for the tribal government. Fairbanks says he doesn't believe racial profiling is widespread in the County, instead he thinks economic injustice is more pervasive in law enforcement.

QUENTIN FAIRBANKS: They get a uniform and a badge and they love that power. The easiest way to use it or get a promotion in these things is make an arrest. And what is easier to make an arrest is a person that's economically deprived, that they cannot pay the fine, they cannot get an attorney to fight a case, even if it was injustice. I'm not saying they would pick on Indians, I'm saying they pick on people that were down and out.

DAN GUNDERSON: Fairbanks says it's time to get beyond the issue of racial profiling and attack the poverty, addiction, and despair that leads so many American Indians into the Justice system. But other American Indians say addressing social problems is not enough. They say as long as there's racial bias, American Indians in Beltrami County will continue to be arrested, jailed, and in court far more often than their white neighbors. Dan Gunderson, Minnesota Public Radio, Bemidji.

GARY EICHTEN: Much of the discussion of racial disparities in the criminal justice system is based on statistics. There are reams of statistics available, virtually all of them open to various interpretations. But many African-Americans say that all that data merely shows what they've suspected all along, namely that police target African-Americans because of their skin color. To hear that human part of this story, Minnesota Public Radio's Brandt Williams conducted a rolling roundtable discussion on the issue of driving while Black.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: We're four Black men in a rented minivan driving around Minneapolis and Saint Paul. D. Eric Harmon teaches English at a local community college. He has also been a freelance reporter for local Black newspapers. Adnan is a salesman for a large pharmaceutical company, his wife will be giving birth to their second daughter any day now. The Reverend Devin Miller is a social activist in Saint Paul, he works with Black youth and police officers on a daily basis.

We're driving while Black and we're talking about what that means. All the men say they've experienced racial profiling in one form or another. We drive down a busy street in North Minneapolis, and Eric remembers an experience he had here a few years ago.

ERIC HARMON: I saw a cop come on Emerson. And I looked at my rear view mirror and saw it was a police officer. I checked my speedometer immediately, I was doing 30, OK, I'm cool. My license is fine, I don't have any warrants, the insurance is cool, everything's hunky-dory, I shouldn't have any problems.

Well, they got behind me, that's that close to tailgating following you. You feel like they're scanning you. You're like, Lord, what are they trying to find out? And she pulled me over, it was a female officer. I'm like, well what?

BRANDT WILLIAMS: Eric says he thinks this was an example of racial profiling. He says when he drives, he always makes sure his blinkers, headlights, and taillights are working. He says he doesn't want to give police officers an excuse for pulling him over. This time the officer said he was speeding.

Adnan says he's experienced similar situations. He says while driving in Georgia, he was once pulled over for driving too close to the curb. He moved to the Twin Cities from Illinois a few months ago.

He says he's been pulled over once for speeding since he moved here. He says he doesn't think it was racially motivated, but Ad says a couple of times police have followed him for brief periods. Ad drives an $80,000 Mercedes Benz, so I ask him why anyone should care that he gets closely scrutinized by police.

ADNAN: Because it doesn't matter. And I've worked hard to get to a point where I am now, and that's why I don't deserve that kind of treatment. I work hard, anyone that works hard whether they are rich, poor, or whatever, it's irrelevant. No matter what you're doing, as long as you're not breaking the law, you shouldn't have to be subjected to that type of harassment. That's why--

[OVERLAPPING VOICES]

ERIC HARMON: [INAUDIBLE] to be concerned because it's not right. And when something's not right, everybody should say, well, that's not right, I don't want to be pulled over for anything other than the fact that I might be committing a crime.

ADNAN: Well, but that's the problem, the fact that you might be committing a crime. But why do they suspect you might be committing a crime?

ERIC HARMON: Because of your skin color, that's not a probable cause. Oh, he's driving, he's Black, he probably is doing something wrong. Let's pull him over, let's check him out.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: The three men say their experiences are shared by African-Americans around the country. They say white America doesn't see the side of law enforcement they see. Eric Harmon and Devin Miller.

DEVIN MILLER: When you bring this thing up to white America, they think you're tripping, or you're paranoid, you're whining, you're just delusional, that you're making excuses. We're past that.

ERIC HARMON: Yeah.

DEVIN MILLER: That was back in the 60s, that doesn't go on anymore. After 65 everything was hunky-dory man.

ERIC HARMON: Right.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: Devin says there's a large perception gap between Black and white Americans that goes beyond the subject of racial profiling. He says Black and white Americans have generally responded differently to the terrorist attacks of September 11th.

ERIC HARMON: The whole issue of 9/11, and this is not popular either, I'm sick of it. Yes, 5,000 plus people died, I'm sorry. But you are raising millions upon billions of dollars for folks who lost their families and things like that. What did you do for my family when we lost folks during the 60s, when you were sticking dogs on us and putting water on us, because we wanted to sit at a lunch counter.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: Ad and Eric also say they've been unmoved by all the flag waving that goes on these days. However, Ad says regardless of America's problems with race African-Americans should jump on the unity bandwagon. Eric says the calls for unity are hypocritical.

ADNAN: But as far as being united, I believe that, I'm not saying, yeah I--

ERIC HARMON: No, no, no no. See, this is what I mean by that's crazy.

ADNAN: OK.

ERIC HARMON: This country has never been united. You got to go back to history when the country was started.

[OVERLAPPING VOICES]

Well, it was united behind making sure that we were three-fifths of a human being according to the Constitution.

ADNAN: I'm talking about being united front.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: The minivan creeps along with the traffic on University Avenue in Saint Paul. And Eric and Ad's debate grows more spirited.

ERIC HARMON: If you look at the media, you look at what they're reporting on, this is still seen as a white country, and a white person's problem. In terms of when they say us, the United States, they're talking about them, it's code word for them, it's not us. Oh yeah, they'll sprinkle a Black person, or Hispanic, or Asian in every once in a while, but we know that white supremacy--

[OVERLAPPING VOICES]

--it is about them.

ADNAN: All right, so Eric, if something happens to them, is it not going to happen to us.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: There is a saying in the Black community, when America catches a cold, Black America catches pneumonia. The guys in the van say they fear that America's war on terrorism could have the same negative impact on African-Americans as the war on drugs. Devin Miller.

DEVIN MILLER: So it's not going to be driving while Black, it's going to be driving while Black, Brown, fair complected. If you hang with people of Muslim descent, you are a target. If you have friends that are from Arab countries, or whatever, you better be careful.

Everybody's going to be in a heightened state of paranoia. Because now you don't know who you can have as friends, you don't know if your friend who's name is Abdul, you don't know if he's connected. And if he's connected, you don't know who he's connected.

ERIC HARMON: I'll tell you what, those brothers who got down in the 60s

[OVERLAPPING VOICES]

They changed their name back to Mark.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: Earlier in the discussion, Ad said African-Americans use humor to cope with racism. He said humor helps the pain roll off, like water rolls off a duck's behind. Being perceived as a thief by store security isn't funny. But Ad got a laugh when he described how he tries to avoid being stereotyped when he goes shopping.

ADNAN: When I go shopping now, I pull my $80,000 car up in front.

[LAUGHS]

I pull up in front. And I step out. Gee, I step out, I want to be so clean, they might think this brother is overspending. He's spending money, he ain't come to steal, he's going to spend some money. Because you're right, I don't want people looking over their shoulder, over my shoulder trying to figure out if I'm stealing something. [INAUDIBLE]

BRANDT WILLIAMS: The guys laugh because they can relate. Maybe not with the expensive car, but they say that doesn't matter. They say it doesn't matter what job you have, or what clothes you wear. They say all African-Americans are potential targets for racial profiling, and they don't know when that will change. I'm Brandt Williams, Minnesota Public Radio.

GARY EICHTEN: Well yesterday 40 members of communities affected by the racial disparities issue got together at Satathani Community Center in Minneapolis for a forum on the issue, a forum sponsored by Minnesota Public Radio's Civic Journalism, an initiative, perhaps you heard that broadcast yesterday here on Midday. Tom Johnson was a key participant in yesterday's forum. He is a former Hennepin County Attorney. He is now President of the Council on crime and justice, the organization that has collected many of the statistics available on the issue of racial disparities. You heard him a little earlier this hour and he joins us now. Morning Mr. Johnson.

TOM JOHNSON: Good morning.

GARY EICHTEN: So let me pose the last question first to you here. When will this change?

TOM JOHNSON: I hope sooner rather than later. I think that the debate that's going on about this issue now, the public awareness that's building around the disparities that exist within the criminal justice system, and the existence of racial profiling as a piece of that disparity issue, I think that's all very positive, and I think precursor to change.

GARY EICHTEN: Mm-hmm. We heard the Beltrami County Sheriff raise this issue, it came up at the forum yesterday. On the one hand, a seemingly simple question, but on the other hand, of course, not so simple. Based on your statistics are more minorities arrested and incarcerated because they're committing more crimes than white people?

TOM JOHNSON: Gary, there's limited information on this, as strange as that may seem. If you look at homicides, for example, it is clear there that African-Americans are most often the perpetrator and the victim of homicide. There it is safe to assume that most homicides do get reported. Most of them are cleared by an arrest, so we know who the offender is and there's a high conviction rate, so we can have a fair amount of certainty around homicides.

But once you move away from homicides, it becomes much less clear for a lot of reasons. I think, when you get down to the lower level crimes and see huge disparities, it does, I think, strike one as being odd that you would have such a huge disparity based on an actual difference in crime. With respect to some types of violent crime it may very well be that certain populations of color are involved in those crimes more often, but maybe at a much lower rate than would be reflected by the difference in arrest rate.

GARY EICHTEN: Mm-hmm. It was pointed out at the forum yesterday that drug laws and drug enforcement policies tend to play a big role in creating this disparity. And somewhere I read that Black people are 39 times more likely to end up in prison on a drug charge than a white person, is that true?

TOM JOHNSON: I don't think the statistic is that high. There is a disparity in Minnesota, I believe it's closer to 14 or 15 to one in terms of the difference in imprisonment rates for drug-related crimes. Although, again, minorities, particularly African-Americans are more likely to be incarcerated in the workhouse than our whites as well. So you've got an overall incarceration rate, prison and workhouse that is pretty exceptional.

GARY EICHTEN: Mm-hmm.

TOM JOHNSON: Now there is some National Research, not unique to Minnesota, so you have to qualify, that would show that drug use across racial lines is relatively comparable. So if that is true in Minnesota, and that's an assumption that we have not yet been able to establish, but if that is true, then there certainly needs to be a question mark over the very significant difference in arrest rates.

GARY EICHTEN: Mm-hmm. At the root of this, you've developed a lot of statistics on this issue, you worked as a Hennepin County Attorney, at the root of this issue, are we talking about practices in the criminal justice system primarily, or the attitudes of the people in the criminal justice system to account for these differing rates of incarceration, arrest stops, and the rest?

TOM JOHNSON: Well to the extent that it is the system, and the people within the system that's contributing to this disparity, I think it's a combination of the two. Although I tend to think that it has more to do with practices and policies, and that people are applying practices and policies without really being cognizant of the effect that might have in further widening the disparity. So I think, because of that, if we can identify, which I think we will be able to, alternatives to policies or practices that are still protective of public safety, but don't have the effect of widening the disparity, then I think policyholders, policymakers within the criminal justice system will be receptive to those changed strategies.

GARY EICHTEN: Finally, you talked a little bit about this earlier in the hour in Dan Olson's report, but why should white people care about this issue frankly?

TOM JOHNSON: It's a huge issue for white people. And if we don't think so then we better do a reality check. I think it's a huge issue of just fairness and justice that we get on top of what's going on here. But when you look at the demographics of the state of Minnesota and how significantly they're changing, if you're a white person just worried about where your social security check is going to come from when you're retired, it's going to come because we've got a viable economy that is based largely on employees coming from the communities of color.

And if those communities aren't available for good productive jobs, because they're caught up in the criminal justice system, it isn't going to work. And as that population grows our problem is going to become more significant not less. And this is the time that we have to get a hold of it, and it may be our last best chance to get on top of it.

GARY EICHTEN: Mr. Johnson, thanks for joining us, appreciate it.

TOM JOHNSON: You're welcome.

GARY EICHTEN: Tom Johnson, who is the president of the Council on Crime and Justice, Minneapolis-based organization. He's also a former Hennepin County Attorney. Played a key role in yesterday's forum on this issue of racial disparities. Much more information is available on this issue on our website, minnesotapublicradio.org. And we're also especially interested in your sharing your personal experiences on this issue. minnesotapublicradio.org.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

DAVID BRANCACCIO: The tragic business of human trafficking.

REPORTER: You can only sell a gun or drugs once, but you can keep a person enslaved and exploiting them for years, and years, and years.

DAVID BRANCACCIO: I'm David Brancaccio, the latest in our week long series on the underground economy, plus we'll try to make sense of the day's financial and business news. Later on Marketplace from PRI.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

GARY EICHTEN: Marketplace heard each evening here on Minnesota Public Radio. Five minutes now before 12:00. Quick reminder, Justice Alan Page at the National Press Club over the noon hour.