(00:00:00) From Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Greta Cunningham Minnesota Governor. Tim pawlenty is in San Francisco today to attend the bio 2004 conference on bioscience initiatives plenty has underscored Minnesota's bioscience industry on a previous trade mission to Canada and has helped create bioscience investment zones in the Twin Cities and Rochester Minnesota Green Party held its state convention in Bemidji over the weekend activists elected 28 delegates to the party's National Convention in Milwaukee later. This month delegates her split on their choice for president most are either uncommitted or support running. No candidate this year Nick Raleigh is State chair of the party. He says many believe the parties focus should be on strengthening its Grassroots base. We need to build the party in the community's first and and get voters support for our local candidates first and show that show that we can serve in public office and we do a good job when we do it and and when the voters confidence piece by piece over a longer period of time five minutes on a delegate support green party presidential candidate David Cobb an attorney. Texas to delegates are committed to Consumer Advocate Ralph Nader who is running for president as an independent party officials say the lack of consensus for a presidential candidate could cost the greens their majority party status in Minnesota Minneapolis school board will announce finalist for a school superintendent this afternoon, Carol Johnson announced her resignation as superintendent last summer to take a similar job with the Memphis School District the school board appointed David Jennings as her successor last September without public discussion Jennings plans to leave the post at the end of the month cloudy skies and Breezy conditions Statewide. It will be very warm and humid as well with a chance of thunderstorms in Northern and Central Minnesota. Some could be severe later this afternoon with highs ranging from 78 in the north to 93 in the southwest right now Duluth. It's cloudy and 58 in the Twin Cities sunny skies and 81 degrees from Minnesota Public Radio news. I'm Greta Cunningham. All right. Thanks Greta. It's six minutes now past 11:00 and good morning. Welcome to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. Go I'm Gary eichten flags are at half staff Across America today honoring the 40th President of the United States Ronald Reagan who died over the weekend after a long battle with Alzheimer's disease. Mr. Reagan was the longest living president in US history. He was 93 years old when he passed away later today. His body will be moved to the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, California. Where a lie in Repose through tomorrow night. His body will be flown to Washington on Wednesday for a formal State funeral on Friday today in midday were going to remember Ronald Reagan and take a closer. Look at his legacy over the noon hour. We'll be hearing from Reagan authors Dinesh D'Souza and Peter Robinson this are oh we've been joined by Mitch pearlstein the president of the center of the American experiment at Twin Cities base conservative think tank Mitch worked in the Department of Education in both the Reagan and first Bush administration's will also be talking with a number of other folks as we move along through the hour. About Ronald Reagan and we also invite you to join our conversation. If you've got a question or a comment about former President Reagan, give us a call here at 6512276 Thousand or our toll free number is 1-800-218-4243 or go to our website, Minnesota Public Radio dot org and click on send a question. Which proceeding. Thanks for coming over today. Great. Pleasure Gary. Thank you. Before we what I want to do here is break up the conversation of a little bit into into for discrete Parts National leadership Reagan's economic policies is foreign policy and his role in fueling the conservative movement and transforming American politics, but overall first of all, before we get into all the specifics here, how do you think historians are going to treat Ronald Reagan few years ago? As I recall a New York Times historians. They took a poll of historians and the consensus seems to be that he would go down as a near Great president on the historian scale. Would you agree with it? Actually, I seen polls in the past that didn't have them nearly that high. I've been really quite struck and appreciative over the last couple of days by the warmth and the reverence and respect that great numbers of folks across the board have had for him have come to have for him perhaps if you take a look at the 20th century, it's hard to imagine any two presidents playing a more pivotal role in the life of this country and of this world than FDR and Ronald Reagan. So you would you would put him in the in the Roosevelt category without question if you Bill Bennett was everybody's been on the tube in the last several days and he talked about the end of the Soviet Union the end of Communism as an event worthy of note over the last 500 years and Ron. You can certainly wasn't the only person responsible for the defeat of Communism and the Soviet Union, but he certainly played a very significant role very significant role setting aside specific policies, which will get to hear as they are goes along Reagan has been described repeatedly, especially over the last few days as a great national leader number one. Do you think that's true and number two if you do why what were the elements of that leadership in your mind? He was a grown-up. I've been thinking about this the last several days. He was a grown up in terms of Civility the dignity the strength of conviction, very important very impressive reassuring president. Hmm. So was It was the attitude that he brought to the nation to the office. I think it would be a mistake to focus only on the atmospherics on the chemistry. And there was certainly chemistry that was also the ideas. He brought a vision of the United States in the world, especially vis-à-vis the Soviet Union and tyranny that was fundamentally different at least significantly different from what had been the case for decades before hand. He came to office after the years of assassinations and Vietnam and Watergate and the rest and brought confidence. All these things have been said over the last several days and I believe that they're all true. Hmm on the line now is former Minnesota Republican senator, Dave durenberger, Senator and burger. Thanks for checking in. My pleasure. Thanks for asking me. Do you think we're kind of focusing this segment on this? Reagan's role as a national leader accurate in your mind to describe him as a great national leader. Yeah, I agree exactly what Mitch said that and I'll put it in my own experience. We had a conversation in early in 1982 out in Bloomington before he made a speech for me about the fact that he would be the last American president who was an adulterer in the Great Depression and that just set him off because he took that seriously you never thought about in that context but the seriousness with which he approached responsibility. We really haven't seen in and I think that's what Mitch was saying about being a grown-up the other the other part of that of course is what Bob Dole thought about him this morning and I was in New York Times where he said he could he always appealed to your hopes not you're not your fears and isn't that the greatest thing that our parents speaking for people my age that are parents who were the adults in the depression always did I mean they did appeal to our hopes not to our fears. Mmm. I remember when he was elected. There was a there were a number of people in this country who were scared to death of what it was he might do they were convinced that that he would lead us into nuclear war among other things yet. He was wildly popular. What were the elements of that popularity which seem to override even the concerns that some Americans had about his policies. I think the the key is in the things we've already been talking about plus plus consistency. I mean, you know an optimist is going to Trump a pessimist any time particularly over the over the long run. I think the fact that there was a moral Foundation that he articulated well, which is hard to express in political terms, but you're absolutely right that we all started out with four years. I mean, I must add a batch of letters from my best friend's a particular people that were in Amber good old sister Giovanni at the Guadalupe area project. Oh my I loved and respected so much writing me a letter about how he was destroying the you know access to food. I remember John Gardner once lecturing me when I said isn't cutting inflation a lot better than just pouring more money into meeting human needs. But in my election the the Sunday of my re-election campaign in 1982. I raise fifty thousand bucks to put myself on television and take Ronald Reagan off of Television because his message was stay the course at a time when unemployment was like eleven percent inflation was about the same something like that and he wanted a lecture stay the course and we said nobody's going to get reelected on stay of course, so I went on you know, and look people in the eyes and said, you know like me and but things changed because we did stay the course. Hmm was he easy to work with you were in the Senate? Of course at the time he was easy and he was frustrating he was easier. Sense that he was a fellow so well met you know, and and so sincere in the sparkling eyes and all the stuff that typical Neil's talks about better than anybody else is really really true. I remember the hardest thing that some of us did and has been repeated now is when the most conservative Among Us had to sit down and look at my look them in the eye and tell him we were in support his version of the of the highway spending bill because it was going to be so good for us on the other hand. You could be terribly frustrating. He had no mind for details, you know, and you'd walk in there. I did the new the Reagan new federalism. I did one of his major planks and his energy efforts and 81 things like that. You'd walk in with all the details and his eyes would start to glaze over it. So it was it was good news bad news would have all the time Gary if I could jump Insurance. Senator, of course everyone knew that he wasn't real good on details, but you wait a couple of years in this instance a couple of decades and he has now died. And one thinks about what leadership at the presidential level is all about and of course questions of details become secondary or tertiary, it would have been nice. I trust if he had a greater interest in details, but it was even better that he focused so firmly on the really big questions and Mitch that get you the the another topic we're not going to spend time on apparently, that's the economy and when we sat in the finance committee, and with this Mantra of cut cut spending by cutting taxes, but over a period of time 81 82 and 86 with help from him and that and his treasury, I mean we cut taxes in the right way. Not only do we reduce marginal rates, but we broaden the base. We did not use the tax code to as current Republicans are doing the spend money on everything that looks like it's a good idea, but we don't want to spend money directly on we use the tax code to Do It Center? Thanks for joining us. My pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity. Former, Minnesota Republican. Senator, Dave durenberger joining us as we reflect on Ronald Reagan and his legacy Mitch pristine is in studio president of the center of the American experiment and we'll be talking with a number of folks as the our goes along if you would like to join our conversations 6512276 thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight or use our online service go to our website, Minnesota Public Radio dot org and click on send a question Robin. You have a comment. Yes. I first of all it was a bit of a background. I was the very first presidential election I voted in was in 1984. I voted for Minnesota's very own Walter Mondale. I am disagreed with President Reagan's policies 95% of the time. However, having said that and in light of his death, I think in some ways I like Hear what your guest has to say with regards to this I think in some ways his presidency was inevitable and I think that it was inevitable because of not merely the national traumas that the United States American society had undergone during the 1960's and 1970's but also the certain kind of cultural moral malaise if you will the narcissism the Christopher lash talked about that we had in this in our society about the time that he was elected and what about magic? I agree in part and disagree in part. I do believe in pendulum swinging if things were getting wild and crazy over a couple of decades. I certainly would have imagined in the 1980s into the 1990s. They would've been more coherence more patriotism if you if Will more traditionalism if you would like to put it that way but there was no guarantee that Ronald Reagan was going to win the presidency much less get the Republican nomination in 1980. It might have been Howard Baker. It might have been the first George Bush it might have been someone else. So there was a certain inevitability I would argue about the very Spirit of the nation changing that the trend line of the nation changing but Reagan was special over and above hmm wasn't and not in the sense of inevitability as you know what I mean? Actually George Bush Senior won the first big primaries, right 1980. That's right running on a campaign of accusing Reagan of voodoo economics as I recall so it wasn't inevitable but there did seem to be already after 1976 quite a Grassroots movement underway in the Republican party was there not though. It goes actually moving moving to our to the right well Or then the rise of Goldwater in 64 with its roots in the 1950s the intellectually the work of Bill Buckley for example on the Democratic side on the liberal side the rise of the neoconservatives the current term neoconservative is as a strange variation on the older thing we're talking about people in the 1960s and the 1970s and into the 1980s many liberal Democratic often. Frankly New York City Jewish intellectuals people like Norman podhoretz and others who had been strong liberal strong Democrats their argument was that they were holding steady. It was liberalism in the Democratic party that was flinging off to the left and it was many of those people who and talking about Pat Moynihan for example as well who became strong supporters of Ronald Reagan not necessarily more in him, but Moynihan, Senator Moynihan who died a year or year and a half two years ago. Now I almost went to work for him when I finished graduate school in 1980 Democratic senator from New York. He had three members of his staff at the time who wound up within just a few years becoming assistant secretaries in the Reagan Administration. This was a period of moynihan's move to the right Checker fin in education Richard Perle in defense and Elliott Abrams at the state department in addition by the way, Tim Russert who's now Meet. The Press was on the Moynihan staff as well. We're focusing in this segment here on Reagan as a leader Ronald Reagan as a leader. Was there a point during his presidency? When you Mitch pearlstein sat up and said, wow, this guy is he is because again, there was a lot of disagreement about his policies, but clearly if you look at the election, Schultz there was there was little or no question that people just really found him irresistible almost. I mean, he carried virtually every state except Minnesota for me, perhaps one of the key moments. I was at the Pioneer Press at the time. I was on the editorial page it was either. Oh late 83 early 84 when he gave his evil empire speech to the religious broadcasters calling the Soviet Union and evil empire and I wrote a piece saying that was a good thing. We elect our public officials not to be silly and undiplomatic in silly ways. But to tell the truth, ultimately and primarily and that's what he did. Remember some of my colleagues not entirely pleased with me, but I pleased I wrote what I did when Ronald Reagan took office in 1981, the US economy was a wreck a stratospheric interest inflation and unemployment. Human traits by the time he left office. Those ills had largely been cured but the federal budget deficit at exploded to record peacetime levels Republicans say that Reagan saved the American economy and set the stage for the unprecedented growth of the 90s Democrats. Say that mr. Reagan left behind a mess that took two presidents nearly 10 years to clean up. Well joining us now is Minnesota public radio's Chief economics correspondent Chris Farrell Chris. Is there any consensus on the Reagan economic record? Like I said the economic record and it's a mixed bag, but largely positive and go through some of the positive things. We remember that period of time when he came to office that's when we were scared about high in Rising inflation. We were Hostage to OPEC. There was a sense of malaise the Japanese were taking over the whole global economy American businesses were just shutting down and could no longer compete and Reagan came to power. And he was part of what I think the right term to use is called the market Revolution. It's also represented by Margaret Thatcher, but it wasn't just on the right. It was Embrace of markets. It was a brace of more open borders deregulating the airline's Financial Services telecommunications to sort of bring Market forces in market prices the bear throughout the economy. And I think that's one of his legacies that truly stands now big debate at the time about so called trickle-down economics. What did we learn from from that? Well, what we learned from trickle-down economics is what we knew all along. Look at the economy is growing fast everybody participates. I mean that's really true. But the notion that you cut taxes on upper income individuals and that's what's really going to turn around the economy. I don't think that there's a whole lot of credence behind that point of view and I think one of the most important things when it comes to taxes Thinking about Ronald Reagan is something that he did that is forgotten. No one wants to talk about is that I don't think it's been mentioned yet in any of the commentaries that I've been reading this morning, which is the 1986 tax reform act. Remember he rebelled against Gucci Gulch all the Gucci lawyers and it was the simplify the tax system it eliminated distinctions between income and capital games. It was a phenomenal move and under President Clinton and under President Bush. We have moved completely away from that did President Reagan kind of lead the effort for that simplification or was he dragged Kicking and Screaming? No, he you know, there's some back and fro aim. This was the period of time. Remember James Baker was you know, highly sophisticated and you know, we're not really going to do this and this was an example of Reagan saying No, this is what we're going to do. This is what's going to happen and the sophisticates in Washington said we can't do that. You can't do that and he said no this is what I want to do and of course. The administration rally behind him. He is the president of states in something really did happen. But no one in Washington really liked it. No one wanted to take that as the beginning of genuine Ruby genuine reform towards simplification because at that point, what's the you know, why be an Insider did he change our thinking about federal budget deficits? Yes, and I think this is the thing where he's to be heavily criticized and there was an interesting comment in Paul O'Neill's book was really written by Ron suskind but all the information came from Paul O'Neill and in there Paul O'Neill was complaining about the budget deficit and Dick Cheney Vice President turned to Paula Nielsen. Well, we learned under Reagan that budget deficits don't matter and I do think that there is a Cavalier attitude toward budget deficits. There's a very distinct philately tude toward government and that these things have lingered and have done some genuine damage now In fairness to Reagan, When he's did see the size of the deficit, you know, he did backtrack and he did raise taxes something that this Administration has been unwilling to do which is one of the reasons why people look back with Ron Reagan with a lot more fondness than maybe they felt that the time because he did have a certain amount of flexibility and willingness to compromise at the margin that help Define his leadership. Finally Chris and I bring this up because I think we're going to hear a lot about this. Well, I know we've already heard a lot about this. We're going to hear a lot more about it as the presidential campaign this year unfolds. Is it true that the policies economic policies that Ronald Reagan set in place in the 80s set the stage for the explosive economic growth of the 1990s. I think that they help set the stage for the explosive growth of the 90s, but then there were other policies that were done in the 90s that continued it. I don't think this is one of those debates that you can say. Well the Republicans did it in the Democrats has benefited or the Republicans do it in the Democrats didn't I mean if you What Bill Clinton did he did eliminate the budget deficit that was really a signal move but also as a Democrat he embraced the North American Free Trade Agreement and the creation of the World Trade Organization and that was building on the Reagan Legacy. But boy that for a Democrat was a real move forward. So I look at what Reagan did was a step forward what Clinton did was a stride forward. Thanks, Chris. Okay Prospero Minnesota public radio's Chief economics. Correspondent Mitch. What do you think? What what is going to be the lasting Legacy of Ronald Reagan terms of his economic policies. Let me give you one example another job. I had 20 some odd years ago. I was on the staff of former Governor Al quie, but my favorite person on planet Earth and we wrote at the time about a jobs climate. We were hesitant to write about a business climate the thought was that would coming from a Publican Administration sound as if we were favoring business, so we use the euphemism. We needed a better job climate people now talk about a business climate and they do so confidently both sides of the aisle. That is just one small example. Don't maybe it's not all that small greater Faith much greater faith in business meaning the market free markets Sharon. You're come in please. Yes, you're on the air a lot of what I was talking about going to talk about kind of was covered because I have real mixed feelings and a lot of them not real positive about the Reagan Legacy. I think one of the pieces that I wasn't thinking of but I think coming in and the cheerleading thing, you know on some on some level was probably good for us, but maybe that eliminated our need to really Ponder the things we had been do through, you know, the corruption as far as the Nixon Administration and the Vietnam War and so forth and maybe we should have had some more sober discussion about what you know, what we needed to do better instead of just rarara were wonderful in the world and and that led to you know, the Invasion of Grenada thus the interference and the support of some of the wrong regimes in Central America and so forth. So, I think he laid the groundwork for a lot of negativity to that. Perhaps is why Bush felt so free to get in to where we are. Now this sort of thing. Okay, thank you. Thank you. I think we have plenty of introspection in the 1970s about Watergate and and other problems. We had plenty of introspection in the 1960s into the 1970s about Vietnam. I don't think this nation ran away from hard questions during that period I would only add by the way in Central America that we're on the right side. We were against the sandinistas. For example, we were against the Communists in Nicaragua. That was a good thing. Did Ronald Reagan make it okay to be patriotic or did that have to come along later? It was always okay to be patriotic. I was part of the anti-war movement in the late 60s. I'm 56 years old now late 60s early 70s and it wasn't a matter of most folks who are opposed the war being unpatriotic they weren't at all. I considered myself quite patriotic the fact though is that too many folks who are opposed to the war too many people on the left willingly gave up. They willingly forfeited the symbols of patriotism. That was a terrible mistake by folks on the left and they're not making it again this time, which is good news. We're talking this our about Ronald Reagan and his legacy Mitch pearlstein has joined us. He is the president of the center of the American experiment Twin Cities based conservative think tank Mitch worked in the Department of Education in the Reagan Administration. Also the first Bush Administration. We are also talking with several other folks this our than over the noon hour. We will hear from two folks who have written books about Ronald Reagan Dinesh D'Souza and Peter Robinson. We also are inviting you to join our conversation as we as assess the legacy of Ronald Reagan 6512276 thousand our toll free number is 1-800-218-4243. And which is Minnesota Public Radio dot-org. That's our web address, Minnesota Public Radio dot org and click on send a question and we'll get to more of your questions here in a couple minutes. Let Abel's tippy. Tippy Crawford. I mean the orchestra had I sit way back, but I have a very very important job. I play the triangle. They couldn't do it without me. That's right. Timmy and Minnesota Public Radio couldn't do it without listener contributions your financial support keeps the station strong, whether you're the conductor or the triangle player every contribution matters. Go to Minnesota Public Radio dot org and make yours today a hundred and ten people have done so so far 13400 $12 closer to our goal. So we hope to hear from you before the end of the fiscal year. Let's catch up on some headlines. There's got a Cunningham gonna thanks Gary. Good morning. Former Soviet leader, Mikhail Gorbachev is planning to attend the funeral of former President Reagan in Washington DC on Friday dozens of mourners have gathered today at the California funeral home where Megan's body is being kept for now later today. The body will be moved from the funeral home to the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley where he will lie in Repose through tomorrow night. The US military is planning to withdraw more than 12,000 troops from South Korea over the next two years about 3,600 of the troops will be redeployed to Iraq. This will be the first Your troop cut in the Korean Peninsula since the early 1990s Martha Stewart sentencing has been delayed to allow her lawyers to seek a new trial one of her lawyer says emotion will be filed later this week Stewart was to be sentenced on June 17th for lying about a stock sale. Sentencing is now set for July 8th Stewart is expected to seek a new trial on grounds that one of the government's Witnesses has been charged with perjury the US Supreme Court says foreign governments aren't protected from certain lawsuits in America. The court says Americans can sue other governments over looted art stolen property and alleged war crimes dating back to the 1930s the 623 ruling supports the efforts of an elderly California woman who's been trying to get back 150 million dollars worth of paintings. She says the Nazis stole more than 65 years ago in Regional news in Minneapolis city council committee is holding a hearing today on the city's proposed smoking ban. The city's Council Health and Human Services committee will hold the hearing at 1:30 this afternoon at City Hall. The council is considering an ordinance Banning smoking in bars and restaurants. Minneapolis Cloudy Skies around the region Breezy conditions. It will also be very warm and humid with a chance of thunderstorms in Northern and Central Minnesota. Some of those storms this afternoon could become severe high temperatures today will range from 78 in the north to 93 in the southwest right now in Sioux Falls. It's sunny and 83 more had reports Fair skies and 81 skies are sunny and Rochester and 83 Cloudy Skies to report in Duluth and 64 and in the Twin Cities Sunshine with a temperature of 85 Degrees Gary. That's a look at the latest news. All right. Thanks Greta 26 minutes now before 12. This is midday on Minnesota Public Radio and our Focus today former President Ronald Reagan who died over the weekend. The state funeral will be held on Friday national day of mourning today. We are reflecting on President Reagan and his legacy Mitch pearlstein has joined us in the studio. He is with of the head of the center of the American experiment. We have a full Bank of callers accept. Our toll-free line is open. So if you want to call it That with your question or comment one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight course our online services also fired up. Our web address is Minnesota Public Radio dot org and click on send a question. We're going to shift our Focus now to Ronald Reagan's foreign policy. And on the line is Miller Stewart who's a retired senior fellow at the University Minnesota Humphrey Institute. He's been a political columnist for the Russian news Services Vesta for over six know over 50 years matter of fact, he's currently in Georgia covering the G8 Summit meeting for Russian newspapers Miller store or thank you for checking in welcome. I'm wondering, you know, there's the real Focus has been as we reflect on Ronald Reagan on his relationship with the Soviet Union and his his belief firm belief that the Soviet Union was collapsing and let's let's push the Soviet Union Over The Edge Let's lead to the collapse put some pressure on what was the impression in? Russia of Ronald Reagan. Well, let me start with my personal Recollections. Sure. I met President Reagan when he was a governor in California. One of the Californian artist wanted to go to Georgia Russia. I mean Georgie of the Soviet Republic to paint and he found me and asked me personally to help her to arrange her trip to Georgia. And this was my first meeting with him and I must say quite frankly that he Charmed be entirely as to the relations between Reagan and the Soviet Union. We have to separate two Pioneers in this relations. One of the words of course evil empire approach. He called the Soviet Union the EU Olympia and I don't think that his policy was the decisive one in destruction the Soviet Union and the Socialist camp, but of course his policy of arms ways contributed to the downfall of the Soviet regime. This is of course unquestionable all the other hand when he developed very close and very warm relations with President Gorbachev. The attitudes toward him. No has changed in the Soviet Union. He was a very warm personality very Charming Man and even with his luggage of The evil empire when he came to Moscow, he was received very very warmly by the Soviet people. I covered all the meetings between mr. Gorbachev and President Reagan and I felt how day by day the relations between our presidents. We are improving and the same applies to the Russian attitude toward. Mr. Regan when he went to Moscow every Russian who met him ask him one in the same question President Reagan. What do you think? Are we still evil empire or not? And at last we extract it from him the answer? No, you are not an evil empire. Anymore. Mylar Stewart would they Cold War have ended when it did had someone else other than Ronald Reagan been president? I didn't catch. Can you repeat again? What the Cold War have ended when it did if somebody other than Ronald Reagan had been president during the you know during the 1980s. I don't think so. Of course it would be ended but it would take much more time President Reagan was pushing pushing and that's why I think that he accelerated the process of destruction of the Soviet regime in the Soviet Union and in the Eastern European countries, and without him, I think it would take much more time our story. Thank you very much for joining us good talking with you. Thank you. I'll or Stewart who is still in the newspaper business working for izvestia and a number of other Russian newspapers. He is down in the state of Georgia. Could I add one point if I might go ahead? George and I are the the syndicated columnist who focuses on International Affairs tells the story she and a handful of other reporters were interviewing President Reagan sometime in a second term after Gorbachev had come to power but I think before he went to Moscow and 88 and he said something about how the Soviet Union was no longer a threat and they thought he had misspoken. They thought he had gotten soft or utopian and he said no the Soviet Union is no longer a threat. I'm paraphrasing because of the rise of Gorbachev another example of this man was indeed ideologically driven. But again, he wasn't rigid about it. He was he was in many respects a utopian. Hmm. What what what what did he do back long before he was president back when he was the head of the Screen Actors Guild. I believe it was in the late 40s during the during the Red Man hunts and so on of the Redskins, did he Rate with the my understanding is he played it fair? He there was a piece in the Wall Street Journal today, for example that he didn't participate in witch hunts. But the fact of the matter is that the Soviet Union was trying to infiltrate Hollywood and other American institutions. We lose sight of that fact again. My understanding is that he played it straight and he got to see by the way. It's folks such as Max kampelman who wound up working for him as an arm's negotiator and old Hubert Humphrey colleague a Democrat. He got to see how Marxist acted and went about their work up close and personal in the deceitful lying dangerous ways that they did back then it was very useful for him. Joe your comment, please. Yes, I guess first of all and just to deviate into the McCarthy or said that the Soviet Union was trying to infiltrate. I was just wondering if you had some sources on that but getting to one point on Reagan that I've been thinking about and I'm somebody that voted for Mondale and you know been a progressive out in. You know kind of opposed to what Reagan stood for but the thing I thought about was that Reagan didn't engage mostly in personal attacks. He usually attacked his opponents aren't based on principle and I think if there is a lesson looking for my perspective to mr. Pearl scenes perspective is that it made him very effective as opposed to well. I'll warn you that, you know people like Ann Coulter and various other Neo cons are doing a real good job of mobile motivating the left a couple points on the role of the Soviet Union indeed leading the way and spying and trying to push the left the hard hard left in the United States. I would urge you to read it. Any number of books by John Haynes and Harvey clear. Ha ynes is an old friend did his Doctorate in history from the University of Minnesota. If you'd like to call me at the center I can give you Citation, I agree with you on Ann Coulter. By the way, I don't go around announcing this but I'm not bashful either her style is not my style her style the the nasty in your face, for example, questioning the patriotism of folks that she disagrees with that. She did in her last book is neither my style or American experiment style. Ronald Reagan's foreign policy. He has received a lot of credit for the end of the co bringing the igloo Cold War to an end. What about his other policies in other parts of the world as successful? Well, the 1980s did indeed see an expansion an unprecedented expansion of democracy and the Western Hemisphere and Central America and the rest of Latin America. I think one of the great sadnesses dangerous sadness is now and that there was no decent way out of this perhaps in challenging the Soviets through the mashhadi Min in Afghanistan. We gave strength to folks who are now after after us hmm did best. You can tell Mitch pearlstein did did Ronald Reagan care a lot about foreign policy issues beyond the simple fact that a communism is bad. The Soviet Union is bad and we're going to win but in terms of broader interest in foreign policy was a something he stood about stood about a lot. I don't think he stood about Much of anything you have this great confidence. This is a and I don't know exactly what he thought about other aspects of the world. I can't speak to that. But let me let me say this there was this assumption I came out of graduate school in 1980s. So I was an environment that wasn't necessarily disposed to to Ronald Reagan of course, and there's been plenty of conversation over this about this over the last several days that he was at all that bright. He was an amiable Dunson all this nonsense the fact is and this has been better understood has come to be better understood in the last several years. He was a he was a voracious reader he read enormously and he was a prolific writer and it seems to me impossible to read a lot and to write a lot without thinking very deeply about a lot of things Dan your comment In 2000 C-SPAN conducted a thorough survey of presidential historians and Ronald Reagan was ranked number 11, which from my perspective places him as one of the twelve or fifteen great or near grade president's I'm wondering do you feel that in the broad context of American History? Is that a fair ranking? I wouldn't argue at this point over I might pick it up a bit given the stakes involved in the in the 1980s on the latter part of the 20th century. I'm pleased that he was ranked as highly as he was in the survey that you suggest of course anecdotally perhaps you hear so many comments from academics who were not nearly as as kind stock politics for a little while. Is it fair to say That Ronald Reagan transformed politics in the second half of the 20th century. Is that a fair assessment? Absolutely. Yes, and well it goes beyond Bill Clinton. For example, let's look at the next well two administrations later. It's more than Clinton saying the era of big government is over. Not that it's over not that it will ever be over but to take a look at welfare reform for example with Bill Clinton finally signing a piece of legislation pushed by Republicans mainly in the Congress that was certainly of the spirit that what what Ronald Reagan would have liked to have passed in the in the 1980s Bill Clinton came to office with the help of a magnificent colleague a staffer of most folks don't know the name. He was behind the scenes player political philosopher by the name of Bill galston who wrote this great paper. This is an example in about 1989 is called a liberal Democratic case for the two parent family Bill Clinton became president because he moved To the middle. In other words moved moved to the right at least in a fashion inspired. I would argue provoke perhaps by Ronald Reagan former vice president former presidential candidate and former Minnesota. Senator Walter Mondale is on the line now, mr. Vice president. Thanks for joining us. Good morning. You had the dubious distinction. Mr. Mondale of losing twice by pretty overwhelming margins to Ronald Reagan first as a vice president and the Carter ticket in 1980 and then the ticket to lead yourself in 84 what in your mind made Reagan such a formidable political opponent. Well, I told somebody the story yesterday of going to see Jess unrwa who had run against Reagan for governor of California gotten slaughtered in the campaign and asked I knew him I said Jessie, how do you defeat Ronald Reagan? And he said I don't know and I don't think you're going to find out either but he had he had the touch he had he carried himself. He was able to express himself. He he people trusted them. They he inspired them he had this. Unvarying Lee optimistic idea about public life and about what America could be and even in times of tragedy. He was there reassuring Americans. And so I think I don't know how she described it. It's sort of mysterious but he had the touch was he in your mind primarily a popular because of his policies or his personality or both. Well, I believe that some of it was policies. Some of it was coming off the fact that we'd had some very tough times in our Administration with the capture of our hostages in Iran the problems we've had with the economy. So I think there was as some of these things even doubt or were solved I think that it was some of his policies he made some very bold move. Huge tax cut and the idea of shrinking government the and some other policies at home and abroad that I think had had did have some following at the time no question about but I think I think the the same policies could been a pursued by somebody else would be may not have been nearly as popular as they became under Reagan because Reagan had the touch is it fair to say that the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980 marked a real Watershed in at least recent us politics a shift away from the liberal tradition, which had dominated certainly from the days of FDR to the to more conservative approach to politics. That's a tough question for me to handle I would say. Yes, and I would say no or maybe yes because he has his Appeal for the big tax cuts passed and some of the changes he wanted to make or the downward pressure on the size of the federal government. In fact became a reality but I would say no or maybe because with time it didn't work the way it had been advertised It produced enormous deficits Rising interest rates, it ruined our International competitive picture and it had to be undone through tax increases and through other steps that had to be undone. So I think historians are going to have to rate and rank how that how they want to read that if there was historians called you up today. Mr. Mondale. How would you rank President Reagan when all is said and done when you take the goods and the bads I would say he was a good president and and a very very nice human being and I would say that it's a little earlier early to go beyond that at this point. But in my impression I'd call him a good present and he and although we didn't know each other that well we were always political adversaries. I feel like I lost a friend. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Nice to talk to you former vice president former Minnesota senator and former presidential candidate Walter Mondale who ran head-to-head against Ronald Reagan in 1984 and Reagan won every state except for Minnesota and the District of Columbia. I believe it's proceeding. That is correct. One of the treats of my newspaper Life, by the way, this was a 1984 was having a presidential race come out of Minnesota. So I attended a number of events that mr. Mondale was part of and I've always been very fond of him, and it was a great treat for me. Why did Minnesota Buck the trend was it simply because the native son was on the ticket, I believe so sure but in your mind Reagan was every bit as popular here as he was elsewhere. No, I wouldn't say that either. I think Reagan would have one here. He would not have won by his much as perhaps. He won in Idaho. I want to talk a little bit about how he transformed the Republican Party. Can you summarize the difference between Reagan's approach to conservative? Political thought and I don't know Gerald Ford's approach to it. There's an ideological crispness and I want to come back to that about there was about Reagan and the people around them. There was a there was a clear point of view ideology scares away. Some folks the point I make the left also has ideology, but generally when we talk about ideology and politics, we generally talk about conservatives and Republicans. I would argue with all due respect and I like Paul wellstone personally a great deal. He was an idea log on the left, but the media for example generally do not describe him never described him. That way it was a more fully thought out when talking about the Reagan approach fully thought-out conception of the role of government the way life political life in this country should be as To the more informal I'm trying not to use words like pragmatic of the other candidates because I believe fundamentally Reagan was pragmatic. It's an interesting combination of having a crisp worldview without being enslaved by was he as conservative as is conservative backers hoped he would be on certain issues, of course not because ultimately had a government to run. He just couldn't sit off and make noise and right pieces on the question of abortion. For example, I recall that he rarely if ever attended the big anti abortion rally in Washington every year. He would send his message by phone by public address system. There was a certain distance he was clearly and firmly pro-life, but he had other battles to wage former Minnesota. Senator Rudy boschwitz is on the line sir boschwitz. For joining us. Yeah. Thanks. Hi Mitch Senator. How are you sir? How did in your mind Senator boschwitz? How did Ronald Reagan transform American politics if he did? He transformed American politics because when he came to office, it was at the end of a 17-year period of down owners starting with the death of President Kennedy and then through the Vietnam War and then of course Nixon and and the pietschmann proceedings and eventually Along Came quarter and quarter was also talking about malaise and incomes President Reagan who talked about The Shining City on the hill and was optimistic and believed in America and thought that the best was yet to come so he just changed the attitude of the country change the attitude of the Republican party and he was a winner. Is it fair to say that he energize the party here in Minnesota after all it was in the mid mid 70s that the Republicans changed their name to avoid being called Republicans and became independent Republicans. Did he did his we didn't fool anybody anything? I always liked that big time. We are we still independent Republicans know we change couple years ago. We're back to Republicans again fair to say that he energize the party here in Minnesota or no. Oh, yeah, he energized to put in every state the energize the nation and really the first big step that he took came quite by accident and that was the air traffic controllers after that everyone knew he meant business and he went from there and that set the tone and we had a very good eight years ask you the same question. I asked him. Mr. Mondale when all is said and done Center boschwitz, you think Ronald Reagan was popular primarily because of his politics or his personality. Well, I don't think there's one of the other I think it's he was popular yes or his personality and popular because he stood for something and even if a person didn't agree with him, they respected him because if he said something he meant it well tell her thanks for joining us. Well, let me let me let me one of the best things about Reagan was of course the jokes and stories that I was in the leadership of the Republican caucus of the Senate and so we met every week with Reagan and every week that he was there and we were there which was probably two out of three weeks and you always started off as he started off everything with with the joking story and of all those that I've heard in the last couple of days one of the best was what he told Jim Baker he had gotten together as the staff requests. Bishop tutu South Africa and he had a nice conversation with him and Bishops to promptly went outside and talk to the press and beat up on the president of for the presence of the next day baker said to to President Reagan. He said well, how did the meeting was Bishop tutu? Go and bring said to do so, so that's what it was gonna leave it there Senator we're out of time. But thank you so much for joining us. Yeah. Thank you. Former Minnesota Republican. Senator Rudy boschwitz and Mitch pearlstein. I want to thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for the invite. It's good to see you again in what do you want people to remember about Ronald Reagan? Good, man, Focus matters conviction matters civility matters manners matter Metro State who is the president of the center of the American experiment? We're going to break for some headlines will continue our coverage of Ronald Reagan right after the news among others. We will hear from Dinesh D'Souza right after news headlines. Business school graduates run the largest companies in the world. There's even one in the white house a degree from a top school can earn you six figures in your first job alone. What kind of managers do these programs turnout people graduate believing that management is simply pronouncing great decisions and Grand strategies for others to implement. I'm David Brown putting the em back into the MBA next time on Marketplace from PRI. 6:30 this evening here on Minnesota Public Radio your to 91.1 Candor wfm Minneapolis. And st. Paul summer has arrived in the Twin Cities right now. We have a sunny Sky 85 degrees in the Weather Service says we could hit 90 yet today. There's also a possibility of very summer-like thunderstorm later this afternoon also a good chance for showers and thunderstorms tonight with an overnight low around 65 tomorrow again showers and thunder showers are possible High 80 to 85 degrees.