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GARY EITCHEN: Today, we're going to start a new series here on Midday. Of course, there are a number of people running either for governor or US Senate in the DFL and IR primaries this September. And we thought it would be interesting to spend an hour with each of those candidates to get to know them a little better before the primary.

So starting today and each week during the summer, we're going to invite one of those candidates in to take your questions. And today, DFL gubernatorial candidate Tony Bouza has been good enough to stop by. Well, thank you, Mr. Bouza for coming in. Appreciate it.

TONY BOUZA: Thank you, Gary.

GARY EITCHEN: How's the campaign going? Getting many calls on the 1-800, Tony-- hey, Tony line?

TONY BOUZA: Yeah, it's got to be H-E-Y Tony, even if it is an agrarian state. I actually wanted to-- I wanted to make a 1-800-hey-Buttafuoco, but they wouldn't let me. It seems like there are too many digits there. But yeah, we're getting a lot. And it's one of those technical gizmos that gives you about a menu of about eight choices, how I stand on a variety of questions. And it's getting a lot of action. I think it is a kind of a technological breakthrough into the 20th century, where I feel very much a stranger.

GARY EITCHEN: Do you have enough money to run a credible campaign?

TONY BOUZA: I think-- I don't know that anybody can ever say yes to that. I think the short answer is no. The money is coming in. The organization is coming together. The issues are being refined. I've raised the least money of any of the candidates. Spend the least. It's being done with volunteers.

It's a statewide effort. I think people are going to discover that it isn't the amateur hour. And it isn't a gong show. We're on bloomsday. Last week, we appointed Lieutenant Governor nominee Kim Stokes. I think Kim is going to demonstrate the substantive nature of what this campaign is all about. One of the talented, bright young leaders in this state, I think, destined to make a mark. So it's real. It's serious.

GARY EITCHEN: I know you've already rejected John Marty's suggestion that all the candidates adhere to put a limit of $100 on the contributions they receive, but in principle, do you think it's a good idea?

TONY BOUZA: No, I think it's hilarious. Try to imagine my life over the last eight months attending every DFL convention, every party, every get together, paying obeisances to the party, observing every single protocol, and regularly getting up and saying, Senator Marty has provided this state with a very nice law, a reform law about contributions, and I'm going to live within it. And then Senator Marty gets up and he says, oh no, I'm above that law. I am holier than thou. I will limit it to $100, individual contributions and no PAC money.

Well, now, of course, he's taking money or in terms of services and an enormous help from the party, which he won fair and square. It was a tainted victory because of forces that he had no control over relating to pro-life, to be sure. But look, if he was ignoring the nuggets of gold on the way to the great big laundered pot of money at the end of the rainbow, he should have said so.

So I think it's disingenuous. I have said all along, I would live according to the party, according to the law. I've even said, I would accept PAC money. Nobody-- no PAC has ever given me any money and I don't think any is likely to. And I could have made a virtue of necessity and become as good a hypocrite as any politician in the state and said, I'm not going to take PAC money. The fact is I would take PAC money, but no one has offered it. I'm willing-- I'm going to live within the law. And I frankly rather resent a holier than thou attitude. The place is above the law, and I was taking a laundered money.

For example, let's assume that you were a big fat cat and you wanted to give John Marty $50,000. Well, you would go over to the party and you would anonymously contribute, ho, ho, ho, $50,000 to the party. And you-- and that party-- and that would be now translated into services, phone, organization, canvassing and so on for party's benefit. Now, do you realistically think that somebody is going to give $50,000 to the party and not let Marty know that he's helping Marty's candidacy? You think that an arm's length relationship is actually possible? I mean, that's disingenuous, in my opinion.

GARY EITCHEN: But he has to pay, what is it, $100,000 to the party, right?

TONY BOUZA: I'll believe that when I see it. Where's the check? And if it comes to that, I rather doubt that will happen. And I look forward to seeing some evidence of it. So I would challenge him to produce the evidence of that payment. And then I would challenge, if made, what is the result of that payment in terms of goods and services received? Because even if he does lay out the $100,000 and gets back $500,000 worth of goods and services, it seems to me that's an exchange I'd be happy to make.

But I never really fully answered your question. I've probably raised about $90,000 and spent around $60,000. And I do expect to raise enough money, but I do expect to raise the least and spend the least. I expect to do this whole campaign for under $1 million from beginning to end. And no other candidate can make that statement.

GARY EITCHEN: Why should DFLers or anybody else who votes in the DFL primary in September pick you rather than the other DFL candidates? Let's forget about the general election at this moment, at this time.

TONY BOUZA: OK, well, I emerged from retirement at the age of 65 to do this bungee jump, because as an immigrant who believes in this great country of ours, who believes that to do one final service, I think we're at a crossroads. I think I will raise issues that are not going to be raised in this campaign, issues of class, issues of race.

The society is dividing. Minnesota is dividing between greater Minnesota, suburban Minnesota and urban Minnesota, between White Minnesota and Black Minnesota, between old Minnesota and young Minnesota, between rich Minnesota and Black Minnesota. The result is a sweltering, festering sore in the inner Cities of crime and violence and rapidly dissolving social controls and rising levels of criminality and violence, and no one addressing the questions of class or race.

We are a racist society. We've got to recognize that the oppressor is corrupted when he or she oppresses. What we do to Native Americans and Blacks and this society is not only cruel, but it's counterproductive and dysfunctional and dangerous because we create criminogenic conditions that make criminal behavior rioting and revolt inevitable.

And then we throw drugs and alcohol and gambling and tobacco at them, and are perfectly content to watch them shoot each other. But then when they start shooting us, as happened in the Long Island railroad in New York, we begin to get upset. These are the questions that I think are not going to be raised.

I also think that we need to speak about social justice, economic justice, racial justice, County government, a more effective and efficient government, the unicameral legislature term limits, really making the government work, ring economies from it, a populist notion. I'm not going to occupy the governor's mansion. I'm not going to have a bodyguard. I'm not going to have a chauffeur.

We're going to try to make the government work. We're going to try to-- now, no Democratic candidate would reform workers compensation. I noticed with some real interest that this particular broadcast is being sponsored through the generosity of a company in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. That's wonderful. The prosperity of that company is being generated by our excessively costly workers' compensation system.

We need to make this state more competitive. We are now hemorrhaging jobs and opportunities that are not easy to measure, not that visible, simply because of our unwillingness to look at the taxes on replacement parts, which is inhibiting expansion. Workers compensation reform that encourages the worker to return to work rather than remaining on the Dole, and that is less costly. Commercial and industrial tax rates and bringing them into line, and rental tax rates, bringing them into line with property values.

Tough issues. Gun control, pro-choice. The issue of crime, do the crime, do the time. Supporting capital punishment. I think the distinctions are going to be very, very sharp. I believe-- I will introduce a word that seems to be a foreign to the lexicon of the DFL very often, and that's accountability and consequence, individual responsibility. So I look forward to a very vigorous debate on the issues with my dear fellow counterparts. But I think that they should understand that I did not emerge from retirement because I was happy with the landscape.

GARY EITCHEN: Our guest today is DFL gubernatorial candidate Tony Bouza and he's here for the hour so that you can get a better chance or get a better understanding of who he is and what he stands for. Let's go to our first caller. Hi.

AUDIENCE: My question goes to the social disintegration that you just talked about. I'm wondering if Governor, how you would deal with the problem that you've warned us about for so long, namely the growing problem of the underclass and the concomitant crime and violence thereof?

Let me just outline the situation in my own neighborhood, which is in Powderhorn Park. We've had a dramatic increase in African-American population over the last two or three years. We've also had a dramatic increase in crime and violence. I, myself, am the victim of an assault in the park just recently, where I had my nose broken, my arm broken, my ribs broken by a group of Black teenage juveniles.

And I don't begin to know how to cope with this problem. I know that racism is rampant, that unemployment is extensive in the Black community, all of which are the creators of the violence and the crime. And I also realize as a result of my beating, that we don't begin to have adequate protection in our parks, in terms of police. We have a minuscule sized Park Police department of some 29 officers, about 23 or 24 of whom are available for patrol, meaning that there's one officer and one car and one precinct at a time, basically.

And also, now that I'm getting experience in the criminal justice system, I realize that the laws that were written to deal with juvenile crime were written long before the massive surge of violence. So I'd like you to address those problems and how you would see some possible solution or even coping with it.

TONY BOUZA: Well, if we round it up, the young men who assaulted you, I think we will discover that they have-- that there are no virgins among them. They've all been arrested. They've all been in juvenile homes. And then we ought to think about where they came from, what their lives have been like in terms of teenage pregnancy, teenage-- incompetent teenage mothers, poverty, tenement status, exclusion, racism.

We need to do two things in terms of criminals in our society. We need to punish them and safeguard society from them. And we have relied on that now for about 21 years, going back to 1973. And the New York State very draconian drug laws, which became a model for the nation. We have tripled the prison population. We've arrested everybody.

I never call for any additional cops. We were making plenty of arrests and sending plenty of people to prison, but they keep coming. You better start thinking. And you have already because you demonstrated an awareness of the social factors at work of the swamp of poverty and racism and exclusion and unemployment and hopelessness that attends the racist policies.

As governor, I would be talking to issues relating to the punishment, to the sequestration of criminals and making certain that we identified the recidivists and protect society from them. But then we have to figure out where they come from. And that speaks to a sex education, contraception, prenatal care, birth weight, Head Start programs, trying to keep a young woman in school, trying to keep young men from fathering children that they cannot and will not cope with.

I think we need to address the social and cultural and economic components of the issue, instead of relying entirely on punishments and draconian measures. They just will not, in and of themselves, work. Punishment works, but it will not-- so reliance on punishment cannot work.

So now, we need to undertake some long range and sophisticated solutions relating to education, joblessness, hopelessness, housing, health. All of these issues relate. And if you look at across the spectrum of the issues, you're going to discover that as we bifurcate into an overclass and an underclass, into White and Black, into suburban and urban, what we are doing is creating-- broadening the sweep of the swamp that creates the mosquitoes that attacked you.

GARY EITCHEN: Where does the money come from for the programs that you would need to address those root causes, if you will?

TONY BOUZA: Well, that's a good question. Where does the money come from that is so lavishly attends the criminal justice system? Look at this state, about to spend an additional $480 million in a criminal justice system. Tougher judges, bigger prisons, more cops. Why not begin to think about shifting some of these resources around, distributing them more intelligently?

GARY EITCHEN: Isn't that a tough sell, though? I mean, people seem to be willing to support more money for the visible up front judges, criminal justice system expenditures. But as soon as you start talking about these longer range squishier things, support drops. So it seems to drop off pretty fast.

TONY BOUZA: It may actually be an impossible sell, Gary. I don't know of any political figure. And you talk about me making a distinction between my colleagues and myself. The reality is that every political figure in America is saying bigger prisons, tougher laws, mandated sentences, three strikes and you're out, and let's hire more cops.

But we've tripled the prison population. We've arrested everybody. Our prisons are bursting. Everybody's under arrest. The murder rate continues to rise. Crime has tripled. The family disintegrates. Violence escalates. Our Cities are being abandoned. And we better start thinking about housing, health, education and jobs as well as prisons. And relying entirely on expanding and inflating an already very large criminal justice system is the wrong way to go.

Sure, that's what the American people want, but I think they're wrong. Sole reliance on punishment and draconian measures won't do it. We have convinced ourselves that we are a bunch of woolly headed liberals that are just content with mere slaps on the wrist. And when are we going to get tough?

Folks, we've been tough for 21 years and toughness alone will not do it. You've got to be tough, and then you've got to be understanding. You've got to figure out where the Willie Horton's are coming from.

GARY EITCHEN: Would you want to cut back on the amount that's being spent on those tougher things to fund the more social-oriented programs, or would you be talking about raising taxes?

TONY BOUZA: No. The answer is yes. I think we ought to cut back. The Minneapolis Police Department that I headed for nine years, I never asked for a single additional cop. I reduced the upper rank level, so from 23 to 12, the number of lieutenants from 112 to 38.

Returned surpluses regularly. And they made more arrests for street crimes. And I emphasize that they made the arrest, the Minneapolis cops, and they did a great job. They increased the street crime arrests by 60%. They did decoy operations and aggressive tactics. They responded to twice as many calls. We introduced 911 to the state and more than tripled the traffic enforcement.

The reality is that what was lacking in the Minneapolis Police Department and is lacking today, there and throughout the government, is management to wring economies from bloated bureaucracies to shift resources. And yes, I think we spend too much on the criminal justice system. I think the crime bill that the state has passed is a bad one, and it's wasteful, and in the end promises safety that it will not be able to deliver.

And I think Clinton is wrong as crime bill. 47 additional capital punishment, huge amounts for sweeps and roundups and drug deals and very little for education, treatment or prevention. It's not sophisticated enough. It's not analytical enough. It's pandering to the worst instincts of a terrified electorate. I am not going to do that. I'm going to tell them the truth. And yes, I would shift resources away from the crime bill. I think the crime bill that they pass is wasteful.

GARY EITCHEN: Go back to the phones. Another caller is on the line with a question for Tony Bouza.

AUDIENCE: Yes, my understanding is that the polls done by the Citizens' Council on crime and justice show that people are waking up to the idea that punishment is not going to solve the problem. And what I hear Chief Bouza saying is we need to spend money on things like Head Start that work and not things on things like jails, where it costs more to send somebody to jail than to go to college.

My question is about a statement that I believe he made in discussing your book, The Police Mystique. And frankly, it's refreshing to hear a politician who's willing to talk about race and class. And in talking about the overreliance on the police and the criminal justice system to solve social problems, you said that, as I recall, the police's role, in fact, is all too often to protect the people at the top of the society, the upper class, and to repress the underclass.

I'm wondering-- a lot of police don't want to do that. They want to protect and serve everybody. How can we change the role of the police, and how can we change the centers of public and private power's use of the police and start solving these problems instead of trying to brush them under the rug?

TONY BOUZA: Well, tough question. Thank you for having read my book. I disagree with the citizen's council on crime and justice. I don't think the public is getting it. I think the public continues to rely on repressive measures, and they're perfectly content to build more prisons, hire more tougher-- more and tougher judges, and hire more cops. Witness President Clinton's debate with the D'Amato. Witnessed Minnesota's own flirtation with the crime bill.

Until America understands the symbolic significance of the March 3, 1991 Rodney King incident in the Los Angeles Police Department, until he recognizes that the Los Angeles Police Department was acting as our agent in attempting to make invisible and control an underclass, we're not going to get it.

The reason why we solved the Vietnam War is we got it with the My Lai incident. They massacred a bunch of children and women, and then we said, well, who did it? And we saw sought a scapegoat. And it turned out to be Lieutenant Kelly. And then the question is, well, did he do it by himself?

Well, no, our boys helped. And then the magical phrase all boys suddenly connected us to this awful crime. And we began to understand the moral horror of the Vietnam struggle, and to our everlasting glory, I think, we withdrew from that terrible swamp.

The same is not true of what is happening in America. We have totally missed the message of the LAPD of Rodney King, March 3, '91 incident and failed to recognize that those cops were really acting as our agents in oppressing a Black underclass. And that there isn't a Black male in America, who could not identify with Rodney King. We've got to get it.

And the Citizens' Council on crime and justice is-- I agree with all of their positions. I don't agree with their conclusion that the American Public is finally getting it. Just the opposite. My own experience tells me that nothing engenders more hostility or resistance than my notions of trying to look behind Willie Horton.

By all means, Willie Horton is a monster. Let's destroy him pandering to our racist instincts. But how about trying to understand him? Where did he come from? What were the forces that shaped him? We might be the Dr. Frankenstein's creating these monsters.

GARY EITCHEN: Our guest today is Tony Bouza, who is seeking the DFL nomination for governor. He's running in the September primary. And good opportunity today for those of you to get to meet Tony Bouza and learn a little bit more about what he stands for and why he wants your vote for governor. Joe from Saint Paul is on the line with a question. Hello.

AUDIENCE: Hi. I just-- Mr. Bouza, I've been listening, and I agree with almost 90% of the things that you've been saying. But my question has to do with your position on the death penalty. I'm personally opposed to having a death penalty. I understand you support it, but I have three areas that I just like for you to discuss.

The first area of the death penalty is the discrimination factor, how most people who are on death row today in America are poor and they're a minority. If you're an average middle class or upper middle class White, and you commit murder, most of the time, you're not going to get the death penalty, statistically.

Second area is the deterrence factor, how that almost the last 20 years has proven statistically that it's not a deterrent, if it was places like California or Texas would be extremely safe, and they're not. And the last factor is the practicality, just how we can't afford to have a death penalty, because sometimes people are on death row for 10 or 15 years while they go through appeals and retrials and other legal situations. So if you could just basically talk about those three areas, and I'll hang up. Thank you.

TONY BOUZA: Thank you, Joe. My wife agrees with me with 90% of what I stand for. And the death penalty gets to be the 10%. So there we are. I have written on the subject and debated it. The short answer is Ted Bundy. But to answer your question specifically, the discrimination factor, we've got to obviously attack the racism factor.

Ours is a racist society and everything that we do is going to reflect that, whether it's admission to a law school, or appearance in boardrooms, or appearance in the suburbs, or housing, or education, or death row, or prisons. Black males constitute about 6% of the American population, about 46% of the prison population, and curiously, 39% of the death row population.

So Black males actually are somewhat-- because of the efforts to try to address the racist factor in death penalty cases, they actually represent a slightly lower percentage of death row inmates than occur in the prison population. But that is climbing. And there's no way you're going to eliminate racism entirely from our sentencing of features or poverty.

And you're right, most of the people in prison, most of the people on death row, are both poor and an overwhelming, a disproportionate number of them are minority. We simply have to factor that in and follow the laws that I follow, the 1975 Supreme Court decision that the executions in this country were discriminatory, and that race had to be factored into the equation. To some degree, we have done that. We're never going to totally eliminate it.

Deterrence, the human animal is only conditioned through two forces, positive and negative, punishment and rewards. So to say that punishment doesn't deter is to say that the human animal is no longer amenable to punishment as a way of affecting behavior. What the studies demonstrate is that North Dakota is the safest place in America, with about 10 murders for 630,000 citizens, and Washington, DC with fewer citizens, 570,000 would have 500 murders. So, look, the North Dakota doesn't have the death penalty. Washington, DC does.

So obviously, the death penalty doesn't deter. What we've got to understand is that you're only trying-- you're only talking about a small percentage of murders that are calculating. We're talking about serial killers, professional killers, cold-blooded, premeditated killers, or political assassins. And they can be deterred, I think, through the possibility of death penalty. You'll get the chair for this and so on.

There's practicality and cost. A very good question. The average inmate spends 11 years and costs a huge amounts of money and on death row. I think what we need to do is to establish guilt before sentencing to death, beyond a shadow of a doubt that would lift it beyond a reasonable doubt to beyond a shadow of a doubt. Factor in the question of race. Allow for one professionally prepared appeal and execute within a year of sentence and that addresses. So I hope I've addressed the however unsatisfactorily the three points of discrimination, deterrence and practicality.

GARY EITCHEN: If your governor, are you going to push for the addition of the death penalty to Minnesota's criminal code, or are you just kind of intellectually support the idea of the death penalty.

TONY BOUZA: It isn't going to be my number one priority. Social, economic and racial justice are going to be my number one priorities. Make the state economically competitive. Try to make us bullish about the future, not bearish attack, the whole issue of crime and its causes and make the government work more effectively. But I do support the notion of a death penalty.

And I would be a hypocrite if I said that if a bill came along that fit my exacting standards, I would not sign it. I would sign it. But it should also be said that if the United States of America and the President of the United States adopted my view of the death penalty, actually the number of executions in this country would decline dramatically, because we would have established that the necessity for proving guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt factor in the question of race and have one professionally prepared appeal and execution within a year.

GARY EITCHEN: Russell is on the line from Minneapolis with a question for Tony Bouza. Hello?

AUDIENCE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Bouza. A question I have relates to many of the things you've been talking about. I'm particularly concerned about the increasing spread between rich and poor, and how this spread is being compounded by our politicians and on state level.

In the '80s, we had the business community, a coalition of power, descend on the legislature with the cry of business-- of a poor treatment of the business community. And they were successful in getting $1 billion tax cut on income taxes, most of which went, of course, to the top earners. As a result-- and they also were successful in getting their own tax rate. The top 10% people in the country, their own tax rate cut by half.

Well, the result subsequently has been a deficit through the years that we've suffered through since then. And we've had to shift that on to sales taxes and property taxes, regressive taxes. So that what's happened with this state is we've changed from a progressive tax state to a regressive tax state.

The last time I checked, the lowest 10% of the people were paying 17% of their income in taxes. The top 10% was paying 7%. Now that, by definition, is regressive taxation, but it contributes to this spread, which contributes to crime, which contributes to all the other domestic problems we have.

TONY BOUZA: So your question is?

AUDIENCE: The question is, do you have any plans to begin to put Minnesota back as a progressive state that addresses these problems?

TONY BOUZA: Well, I do not propose to tamper with the income tax. I agree that the growing dichotomy between the rich and the poor is creating very serious separations, but tampering with the Minnesota income tax is simply to promote the growth of the populations of Florida, Arizona and Nevada. And the reality is that we are already uncompetitively high on income tax rates. That is an issue that ought to be addressed nationally.

On a national basis, Americans are amongst the lowest taxed people of any industrial society and provide the poor with the fewest services. In terms of health, we're the only industrialized nation without a universal health coverage. Housing, in terms of public housing, education, unemployment insurance. We have the lowest floor for our poor, but that's not going to be addressed in Minnesota. And I have no intention of tampering with an income tax that is promoting the flight of citizens from this state.

I agree that sales taxes are regressive. I think we ought to consider the possibility of reducing the sales tax to 6% and taxing clothing, which has been found in studies not to be that regressive, because the rich tend to spend disproportionately higher shares on clothing and tourists. The rental taxes is another hidden cost on the poor. Renters pay higher proportion of taxes than home owners.

And then, of course, there is the issue of gambling, a rarely mentioned tax on the poor. The poor gamble disproportionately. The state is encouraging the poor to gamble. So I do think that we need to revisit the whole question of taxation. Income taxes is not an area that I propose to alter dramatically. I propose to look at the other areas.

GARY EITCHEN: What do you want to do with gambling?

TONY BOUZA: Well, gambling-- the Indians now have a well-deserved and hard-earned monopoly on gambling, but I think they ought to voluntarily pay a fee for the retention of that monopoly on the order of 25% of gross proceeds, which would probably raised somewhere in the order of $100 to $150 million a year for the state, in exchange for which we will guarantee a legal monopoly over casino gambling to the Indians. And they would continue to pay voluntarily for as long as they retained that monopoly.

GARY EITCHEN: And if they didn't want to do that, then you'd open up gambling across the state of Minnesota?

TONY BOUZA: You would absolutely have to threaten to expand gambling throughout the state of Minnesota. I have no intention of lying to the citizens of the state. I oppose the expansion of gambling, but I would reluctantly adopt an expansion or an expansion policy.

As we speak now, the sharks are in the water, and they smell blood. Bills are introduced into the legislature, expanding gambling. The recent disclosures of the amounts that are being dispensed to tribal members have gotten most Minnesotans pretty upset. I think the Indian monopoly is endangered. I want to preserve it. But I also think the Minnesota taxpayers are entitled to some payment in exchange for the preservation of that monopoly.

And I'm going to insist that the Indians either pay something on the order of, not married to this figure, 25% of gross proceeds, or a risk of watching a casino gambling expansion throughout the state. I think we're going to-- we might get expansion of gambling throughout the state without the citizens reaping the benefits that they could get and retain sequestration, that is, casino gambling only on the reservations and provide the Indians with a vehicle for self-sufficiency, which they have never had in this nation.

GARY EITCHEN: Back to the phones. John from Saint Cloud is on the line with a question for Tony Bouza. Hi.

AUDIENCE: Hi. This is John Peterson from Saint Cloud. Mr. Bouza I believe we spoke at your MSUSA, the luncheon speech you gave right afterwards in Saint Paul.

TONY BOUZA: Thank you. Yes. Tell them the straw poll results of that.

AUDIENCE: I didn't recall.

TONY BOUZA: I was told that I outpolled all the other candidates.

GARY EITCHEN: Now, what organization was this?

TONY BOUZA: Minnesota Students' Union.

GARY EITCHEN: OK.

TONY BOUZA: And they took an informal poll of those who attended and I outpolled all of the people. You should have-- did you or did you not participate in that poll?

AUDIENCE: I participated.

TONY BOUZA: Thank you. I mean, I don't want to be made into a liar this early in my campaign.

GARY EITCHEN: All right, what's your question, Mr. Peterson?

AUDIENCE: OK. My question is about the proposed unicameral state legislature. I called up 1-800 Hey Tony when I heard about it. And I thought it was refreshing to hear that you once eliminated your own position. So I'm wondering, what do you envision our legislature looking like and working like, if you have your way?

GARY EITCHEN: First of all, let me interrupt. Before we get to that question, is there any realistic chance that that's going to happen? I mean, if you're--

TONY BOUZA: I think it's a tough sell, and I-- but like-- I think my whole program is a tough sell from beginning to end, class, race, poverty, social justice, economic justice, racial justice. It's a tough sell from beginning to end. That's why I entered this race to demonstrate to Minnesotans that we still have a chance before we slide into the icy waters of Detroit. And I intend to push it.

Unicameral legislature. Look around you. Look at Honeywell. Look at 3M. Look at General Motors. Look at IBM. What are they doing? They're cutting back. They're streamlining. They're undertaking efficiencies and effective measures and laying off and looking at bankruptcies and sales and profits and losses. And look at the government. It just swells and expands like a cancerous pizza, swallowing everything in its sight.

How about making it more accountable, leaner, more effective, more efficient? How about County government? How about a unicameral legislature? How about term limits? How about not occupying the governor's mansion and attacking the imperial governorship with Togas and Laurel wreaths and chariots?

How about no chauffeurs? How about no bodyguards? How about introducing some of the economies that every listener is subjected to, except those of us who have been wallowing at the public trough? How about introducing to the public trough some of the merciless disciplines that 99% of our citizens have to live with every single day, that the wonderful creature of capitalism invests us with?

That's what it's about. So a unicameral legislature would be one legislative body, probably a third the size of the current body that would be proposing bills, passing bills, submitting them to the governor's signature, and serving-- instead of conference committees and all the posturing, serving as one legislative body as opposed to two.

GARY EITCHEN: Back to the phones. Mark from Stillwater has a question for Tony Bouza.

AUDIENCE: Hi, Mr. Bouza.

TONY BOUZA: Are you calling from inside or outside?

AUDIENCE: I'm calling from inside.

TONY BOUZA: OK.

AUDIENCE: Mr. Bouza, I'm a teacher in the Minneapolis Public Schools. And I listened to a lot of what Arne Carlson has had to say about children, and it seems to be all smoke and mirrors. And I'm not in favor of outcome-based education. And I think that the state has some serious issues with child abandonment, and the way we treat our children. And I want to know what you propose to do about these kinds of things.

GARY EITCHEN: Education in Minnesota.

TONY BOUZA: I will this afternoon be meeting with the Minnesota's Teachers Federation. I think with education, as with health, and with housing and with-- we have a two systems. We have the best system in the world and the worst. When you're talking about Native Americans and Blacks, we have the worst. When you're talking about inner Cities, we have the worst. When you're talking about suburbs, we have the best. We've got to begin to equalize it.

One way to do that would be to a gradual state takeover of educational funding as opposed to predicating it on local funding. Another way, I do support the notion of outcome-based education. I think our graduates have got to be-- ready to be citizens in terms of functioning as citizens, and ought to be ready to work and ought to have skills. I do believe that education is the most important function of the state. And we've got to attack the inequities of funding between suburban and urban youth and the facilities.

And it speaks to crime prevention. I think that if we had better facilities and better education and smaller class sizes, outcome-based education and an equalization of expenditures, I think we would be a more just society and a safer society. That's really what crime prevention is about. It's about health, education and housing. And I intend to speak to these questions and make education one of the top priorities of my administration.

GARY EITCHEN: In terms of your philosophy, do you see the education system essentially run at the grassroots level, or do you think the best way to change the system is from the state level down?

TONY BOUZA: I think it ought to be run from the grassroots level. That's where the needs are most obvious and the concerns are deepest. But I think it ought to be funded by the state in order to equalize the rates. And I think we've got to recognize-- Jonathan Kozol wrote a wonderful book, the title of which tells you everything, Savage Inequities.

The reality is that we are engaged in savage inequities between suburbs and urbs, and between the rich and poor, and between the White and Black, and that's got to be addressed, if we want to make for a safer and just society. And these are the issues that speak to the question of crime prevention, of real programs.

And what we are now doing is simply crossing the street into a diner and creating a super duper educational system and abandoning the Minneapolis schools where the war was appealing, and the facilities aren't there, and the pools aren't there, and the facilities aren't there, and the abandonment is there. You're absolutely right. We are abandoning our children's and-- our children in the inner Cities.

GARY EITCHEN: Bill from Shoreview is on the line with a question. Hi.

AUDIENCE: Thank you, Gary. Thank you, Mr. Bouza. As you-- the erudition alone ought to carry you through.

TONY BOUZA: Thank you, sir.

AUDIENCE: For us, it would be tremendous. As you go about the state, you might remind so many that candidate in the dictionary diacritical marking is long and delegate is a short. So we're not candidates or delegates. But here when you get to be one or the other, you have to discern the difference.

One of the opposition people of Saint John, of Roseville railed against all his colleagues and all his seatmates and made mighty fusses he above suspicion like, Caesar's wife. And then he took after all the lobbyists. And then Mr. Bouza, he turned around and put a lobbyist on his ticket. To me, that's a real contradiction.

Could you discuss your running mate? And then I've heard you cover unicameral. That takes care of my other thought. And for heaven's sakes, Governor, to be tougher judges, at least one who knows an automobile can be a lethal weapon. Thanks, and good luck.

TONY BOUZA: Thank you, Bill. I wish the callers would call me Tony, but OK. Running mate Kim Stokes, 36, a wonderful education, Saint Olaf, Harvard School, tremendous experience in private life as in banking and Public Life at the national and local and grassroots level, running Senator Wellstone's office, working in Washington, well-traveled, a wife, a mother, a worker, one of the future leaders of the state, Bush fellow, and an Iron Ranger, latterly. I think she is going to surface. The Lieutenant Governor is going to be a real job.

I think I wanted a woman because I'm a feminist. I wanted an out-of-stater because I didn't want this to be a macho effort. It didn't matter to me whether it was the Iron Range or any other range in the state. It had to be tough and it had to be smart. I look forward to the surfacing of Kim Stokes in the state of Minnesota. I think you're all in for a treat.

This is a really tough, smart, admirable young woman, and one of the future leaders of the state. And she brings, some people think, a level of maturity to the ticket, albeit only 36 years old. Some people think I'm something of an old kid, and at least you can read the actuarial tables with some other Lieutenant Governor candidates don't seem to be able to do.

GARY EITCHEN: Our guest today is Tony Bouza, who is seeking the DFL nomination for governor. Marion from Minneapolis is on the line. Hi.

AUDIENCE: Yes. I like what you're saying about the state and the fact that we should all think about how the racial situation gets involved because of the situation in which those people are reared and raised, because of the underlying social difficulties. But I would-- you've talked about education as the most important issue, but I would like to know education is not going to create jobs. How do you propose creating more jobs in Minnesota?

TONY BOUZA: Good question, Marion. Thank you. As I listen to some of my DFL colleagues, I often think that repealing capitalism. The state can do a number of things. It can develop the infrastructure, telecommunications, highway, ensure access for the whole state.

When we created our road system, we basically excluded large segments of the Western part of the state and others. And we promoted the growth of the Saint Cloud, Minneapolis, Saint Paul, Rochester oval to the exclusion of the surrounding area. We can't afford to make the same mistake where telecommunications are concerned. We've got to educate our workers.

One of the glories about of the state is traditionally-- I think, we're slipping on this, but traditionally, we have produced an educated workforce. The votech system, the technical colleges can help to do that. We can-- and then we can begin to think about creating an economic structure that fosters growth, reforming of workers' comp, or a repeal of the sales tax on replacement parts, or reduce the sales tax and tax clothing.

Look at the commercial and industrial and rental and farm and residential real estate tax rates. I think we've got to make some very difficult choices. I fundamentally am a fiscal conservative in the sense that I think we have to pay as we go. I think economies can be wrung from the state government. I think we can raise a lot of money from voluntary fees on Indian gambling.

And I think the-- and we can shift expenditures around. I do think that we're spending a huge amount of money on a government that is fundamentally paralyzed, and we ought to be thinking about shifting resources. Certainly one would be away really from a wasteful crime bill and towards things that have to do with housing and education and health.

GARY EITCHEN: Gary from Minneapolis is on the line with a call. Hi.

AUDIENCE: Yeah. Hi, Tony. I want to say I really like your policies on crime, except the death penalty. And I particularly think your analysis of race and class is very good. A two-part question for you. How do you understand your crime policies to be different of those of DFL gubernatorial nominee John Marty? And number two, if you don't succeed in winning the DFL primary, what role will you play after November and working for progressive reform of the criminal justice system in Minnesota?

TONY BOUZA: OK. Well, Senator Marty and I have debated the death penalty. And I think that speaks to the whole question of the punishment question. I think I would tend to be more severe on the punishment question, targeting the recidivist, executing serial killers, and just being tougher on them. In terms of where they come from and the social policies, I think we tend to view it rather similarly.

I have vowed to go through this whole three act opera. The first act is the convention, the second act is the denouement that occurs with the primary on September 13, and the final and climactic act occurs on November 8 with the general election. The fat lady ain't sung yet. I've gone through the whole process, appeared at the convention and spoke, and did not trash the party, did not trash the candidates, and received some, I think, praise from the party chair.

I intend to support whoever emerges as the DFL candidate on September the 13th and then work for their election. I intend to continue to work for the reform of the criminal justice system, and not only punish the criminals, which I think may be where we differ most dramatically, but also try to figure out where they come from, where I think that Senator Marty and I tend to view things rather similarly.

GARY EITCHEN: Quick question before we go back to the phones, do you regret having said that there were no gangs in Minneapolis? This was occurred while you were a police chief.

TONY BOUZA: I think the answer is yes, but what I really said was the Minneapolis does not have a serious gang problem. It has a serious youth problem. I was trying to deflect attention away from what I felt was a racial epithet, gangs referring to Black kids.

I created a gang unit. I had a decoy operations. We greatly increased-- we actually enforced curfews selectively. Very tough, aggressive law enforcement posture. During the time I was in Minneapolis, there were few evidences of gangs. Obviously, there were Crips and Bloods involved in drugs. And we were very tough on them.

But I also wanted to shift the locus of the debate away from what I thought was a thinly veiled racial epithet. I said there were no-- Minneapolis does not have a serious gang problem. It has a serious youth problem. Nobody ever heard the second part of that quote.

GARY EITCHEN: Back to the phones. Mark from Sauk Centre is on the line. Hi.

AUDIENCE: Yes, good afternoon. I wonder if you might speak for a moment or two to the issue of radioactive waste storage in Minnesota, but maybe more importantly, to the issue of radioactive waste production in Minnesota. And then particularly to the Prairie Island issue, whether you-- if you could take that in the context of environmental racism and big corporate will and big special interests like NSP. And then maybe lastly, if you have any comments or thoughts on how some of the DFL leadership, Roger Moll, Irv Anderson, Lauren Jennings, Steve Novak actually muscled that bill through a bill which many of us view as NSP's bill.

GARY EITCHEN: OK, first of all, would you have signed that bill once it passed the legislature?

TONY BOUZA: No.

GARY EITCHEN: You would have vetoed it?

TONY BOUZA: Yes.

GARY EITCHEN: Do you oppose all storage of nuclear wastes out there? You want to shut the plants down immediately?

TONY BOUZA: No, I oppose dry cask surface storage of nuclear waste on Prairie Island. I'm perfectly willing to allow them to go on storing them in the pools, but the pools are filled. So at this point, we ought to be envisioning a closing of that plant, while we're still only relying on the 20% and going to alternate sources, biomass, co-generation, wind, sun. There are lots of alternatives.

I would not have signed the bill. It seemed to me a Faustian bargain embracing poisons. We should not be engaged in dry cask storage on the surface. And obviously, there are special interests abound. In this case, the unions supported the notion of dry cask storage. In some cases, the corporate interest supported it.

Where the person's treasure is, there shall their heart be also. People are trying to protect jobs and profits, and neither is evil in and of itself. But the dry cask storage on the surface of the Mississippi River is embracing poisons in a dangerous policy, and I oppose it.

GARY EITCHEN: Do you see the whole issue as being one of racism?

TONY BOUZA: No, I actually don't. I think racism pervades the society and it occurs whatever you're selling, whatever you're buying, whatever you're doing. So it is no more racist than any other issue.

GARY EITCHEN: We're just about out of time. I should ask you too, would you have put as much time and energy into trying to keep the Timberwolves in Minnesota as Arne Carlson has?

TONY BOUZA: I think I would have put more. I don't want to be critical of Governor Carlson. I think he got some deserved praise for it. I would started earlier. I think it would impinge on the morale of the community. I support it, and that's another distinction that I have with my colleagues in the DFL. I would have support. I said from the beginning, I supported a reasonable buyout of the Timberwolves, that it's an important commodity.

That big League areas are defined by the presence of big League sports as a very important morale issue for the community and a tremendous resource. And I would now be working for retention of the Timberwolves, which is by no means assured, and for the return of a Major League hockey franchise to Minnesota. Reasonably, you don't want to get involved in a nutty bidding war, and you don't want to enrich profiteers who are in it for their private emolument.

GARY EITCHEN: Are you expecting your former boss, Rudy Perpich, to enter the race?

TONY BOUZA: Yes, I expect him to enter the race. And that will obviously muddy the waters. But I look forward to the combat ahead and I expect to win.

GARY EITCHEN: And why is it that you're not going to stay at the mansion? It's the public's house after all. Would they expect the governor to hang out there and serve as a tour guide once in a while?

TONY BOUZA: I expect to turn it into a public building for the people. I do believe-- I believe it belongs to the people. We ought to have ceremonies there, weddings and bar mitzvahs and baptisms and conferences and return it to public use. I'm sick to death of imperial government.

And if we're going to have people living in mansions, we ought to give them purple Togas and Laurel wreaths and March them around in chariots. I'm fed up with it. Let's get back to good old-fashioned populism and the style of Floyd v Olson.

GARY EITCHEN: Thank you, Mr. Bouza. Good talking with you.

TONY BOUZA: Thank you, Gary. Great to be with you.

GARY EITCHEN: DFL gubernatorial candidate Tony Bouza, who is, of course, running in the DFL primary against what could be quite a crowded field by the time the filings close in the middle of next month.