(00:00:31) Minnesota Public Radio is live coverage of president Mikhail Gorbachev's visit to the Twin Cities is made possible by the international public relations consulting firm of Padilla spear Beardsley, one minute before five o'clock as we await the arrival of the Gorbachev motorcade in Downtown Minneapolis commentators Patty Dale and Evelyn David Heiser are here. I can't read my handwriting and I can't remember anything anymore. Thank you folks so much for coming in pants. You got to take off shortly. What's your impression over all of this trip? So far that you've seen today? It is clearly been a success. Ultimately. The success will be tested in the business response that comes because of it. I was intrigued to find Robert Maxwell as part of the retinue. I was unaware of his participation but That is an indication of Gorbachev's ability to attract the attention and mobile are attract the attention of and mobilize some of the leading businessmen of the world. They are taking him seriously. Do you think that more is accomplished by having him come to Minnesota than just having him visit with or just having trade discussions and political discussions among Business Leaders. Not at the presidential level. Yes, it is important for him to get out of Washington the whole of American industrial and technological Enterprise is not concentrated within the Beltway. It is here in Minnesota. It is there in California. It is also our God which of has come to meet but American Business Leaders is doing so that Maxwell was there is an indicator that he's being taken seriously ultimately the proof of the pudding will be in the eating in in how much extra economic interaction is produced between Minnesota and the Soviet Union because of it. Yes. I think it's been successful. Is it it one day that has a what do you think about the prospects for additional trade between this part of the country and the Soviet Union? Well a lot depends on the problem of Ruble convertibility and some people have put it commodity convertibility, but I think it's critical that he move the economic aspects of his visit to the United States away from Washington to move the economic away from the political the problem with most favored nation status has been political not economic certainly there's there's business enthusiasm for that. So by going to San Francisco by going to Minneapolis and and concentrating on the economic outside of Washington, he he moves towards separating that from the political relations between the two countries. Well, it seems that in in the effort to have the various Business Leaders in the former agriculture secretaries urge most favored nation trade trade status. That he is trying to develop a constituency outside of Washington. I wonder if you will succeed in doing that. I don't know senator boschwitz for one is not been terribly enthusiastic about that most favored nation trade status until we see some improvement in the in the Lithuanian situation and human rights. Generally. Well, yes, I mean that that continues to be a problem. The question is if enough Business Leaders start lobbying do people like Senator boschwitz start listening to The Business Leaders, and hmm. All right, two minutes past 5:00 o'clock. Thanks Helen Patty Dale. I know you have to take off. Thank you so much for coming down here and spending several hours with today. My pleasure. It's been very interesting Petit Des libraries from st. Olaf College in Northfield. He is a political scientist who specializes in the Soviet Union and directs the Soviet studies program at st. Olaf. Thanks a lot. And Evelyn you're going to you're going to hang in here for a while and visit with us as we continue Right Through The Bitter End right through The Bitter End. All right. Terrific President Gorbachev strip to Minnesota has been described primarily as a business trip one theory is that his visit is in part to express his appreciation for the Loyalty shown by some Minnesota companies the Soviet Union. There is a lot of talk about all the business opportunities available in the Soviet Union, but for all the opportunities the Soviet system also presents some serious hurdles. One of the biggest is the currency the ruble which exactly is Patty and Evelyn has said is not convertible Richard board director of international trade for the Minnesota trade-off. says the currency and other matters Cloud the trade picture with the Soviets, you know, it's problematic right now we hear stories about Payments by the Soviets to Western companies being frozen because the Soviets are desperately short of foreign exchange that has not been a problem until this point the Soviets have been very prompt with their payments, but you're right Bob there. Is that shortage of foreign currency which for the time being anyhow is going to put more and more emphasis on counter trade barter trade and those kinds of Arrangements which Inspire entrepreneurs to be creative and imaginative. We know that they can that they have plenty of vodka. They had a story about oil. Is that a practical thing could they load up oil oil and tankers and ship it across well that that has been a primary export for the Soviets but we understand there to that sources of oil are beginning to shrink here and there in the Soviet Union. So the long-term viability of oil is looks a little doubtful at least for the moment. We're told the Soviets reward loyalty and that companies like Cargill Control Data Archer Daniels and some have been loyal but is there a point in your view when businesses should react to a country's violation of Human Rights and essentially stopped doing trade brings some power of the purse to bear. I think that a number of minnesotans have gone that route particularly during the 1970s number of Minnesota companies continue to hold back because of that issue but as the Soviet Union increases its immigration to Israel and to other countries going to say it out of Richard boar here director of the Minnesota trade office so that we can check in with crystalline who has the motorcade insight and actually we're going to Run, yes, Bobby Addison Plaza. Yes, Bob. I'm directly across the street. Now from the entrance to the Radisson Plaza the limousine bearing President Gorbachev has just pulled up and pulled into the they're dry. There's a circular driveway or that goes in front of the Radisson front door as he drove by us here on 7th street. He could see him leaning forward leaning toward the window waving to the crowd of reporters on the street and he was beaming I think it's the only way you could describe it smiling from ear to ear as he drove by waived and they immediately pushed him around into the driveway and we can just see through the through the pieces of banner here. What's going on Lauren? What is that yelling? I hear in the background. You hear that that barking? Yes, that barking is a apparently a secret service agent some sort of security moving cars around showing cars were to go showing buses were to go. He's obviously very upset that tell us where it belongs. Oh that fellow does not sound like he's from Minnesota. He's not being very polite. He looks like he's from Minnesota Bob is he really he doesn't really have that that that appropriate. Sorry. Yes, what'd he shoot you the bus? He's yelling at is the Bus full of these Business Leaders various dignitaries. A lot of them carrying these Euro bags as they're known, you know, these shiny plastic bags that you often see in department stores and that kind of thing and now we're seeing the bus here the large sort of executive limousine getting out of the way and that's what he was trying to I see via the pool video feed their Gorbachev in a in a welcoming line. I saw him just greeted by Kurt Carlson Carlson companies and he is now making his way down the line visiting with some some of the other people there who are greeting him with the Radisson Plaza. I'm sorry Bob. I lost you there for a second. I'm just saying that my observation from the from the pool video here is the Gorbachev is is being greeted by some people at the Radisson Plaza among them Kirk Carlson. And I trust that you'll be going inside. They're quite shortly. Yes. I think that's so it is we have been informed by the way that some of the biggest of the big shots as it were the out-of-town people the Lee iacocca's of the world the Roger Smith for example, or not able to make it to the meeting today or is that right? That's right. And that apparently has made room for some more lesser big shots as it were more minnesotans apparently getting in Harvey Mackay. For example, it was originally left off. The list now is going to be in that meeting and a number of other people were told there's an advertising executive from (00:10:13) Iowa. For example, who is now going to take part in the meeting because of these vacancies created by the (00:10:18) nationally known celebrities not showing up. Well as I understand it one of Harvey's books. I think the first one was probably translated into Russian added quite well over there. That's what I've heard to and (00:10:29) I (00:10:29) imagine he might be a popular guest there. By the way, he city is seated at the same table with Jack Granja First Banks. So maybe they'll find something common to talk about imagine. I imagine there'll be a lot of meeting of the minds down there at the Radisson Plaza later on today. No Soviets at the table with Harvey Mackay that we can see by the way. Now the interesting thing is that apparently despite gravitas penchant for getting out of the vehicle and talking to people he did not do that on his way down to the plaza this afternoon. Well, what we saw here was about the last block block and a half of the motorcade is a twist down 7 Street looked like it'd be like it was going about all the 30 miles an hour. Even when I wish through the final corner there at the Nicollet Mall. And as I say, we what we saw in the Press Corps was Gorbachev pressed up against the window of the limousine smiling broadly waving and then just just a brief flash as he went by and made that you turn into the Radisson driveway. Is it your understanding learned that the the meeting is still going to be open to broadcast coverage? That's the latest. The information we have Bob. Yeah, we double check that with the Press office. The folks were coordinating this curvature. I visit they tell us that as best. They know they're not sure where that report that you had came from that meeting would be close but it's best. They know the meeting will be open and it will be available on that pool. Audio feed very good. Well, I hope that's the case. All right, Lauren. Well, keep us up to date if you see anything interesting down there way. Holler back at okay right now, I think I'm seeing the same thing you are which is sort of a wide shot of the meeting room people seated at various roundtables various Business Leaders, awaiting the arrival of garbage truck. And as I understand it Lauren Gorbachev, this meeting actually will not get started for about 35 minutes yet as I understand it. He has a little rest time they're not the hotel. That's what we've been told to they call it private time. But basically it's kind of a (00:12:14) chance for (00:12:16) President mrs. Gorbachev to recoup to have a couple of rooms reserved for them at the Radisson and apparently that's exactly what I'm gonna do is what anybody else would do after a long trip is got to go and freshen up a little bit, you know, maybe special cold water and their face and sit Rest your legs digest that big meal if they had at the governor's breaded wall. I've heard so much about yeah, absolutely. All right. It is 11 minutes past 5:00 o'clock as our live coverage of the Gorbachev trip to Minnesota continues. We sort of interrupted a conversation Midway with Richard bore of the Minnesota trade office in order to catch up on the arrival of the motorcade in Downtown Minneapolis. Richard Moore has a number of interesting comments to make and I think it might be worth our while to go back and listen to some of them. You think it's any of our business in Minnesota whether or not the various Republic's get independence. We have heard throughout the course of and will hear throughout the course of the afternoon today from some of the ethnic groups that are backing Independence for their Republic's is that any of our business? Who should we just pretty much say? Well that's their Affair let them deal with it as they will I think minnesotans have always regarded that issue as minnesotans business many minnesotans have been vocal in that area. And there are ways that minnesotans can bring pressure to bear in those areas to get mr. Gorbachev to respond one way or the other you think they should do it at the meeting today. I'm sure that President Gorbachev is going to be fully aware of the issues that a number of minnesotans will bring to him how much u.s. Red tape and bureaucracy is a problem with trade with the Soviet. So is most of the trade are most of the red tape and bureaucracy. They are an issue of there's I think on both sides Bob red tape is becoming less problematic on the Soviet side in the old days. Of course, you just go to minister. I've enormous Minister. I have enormous Minister Ivan and try to find a factory through a centralized bureaucracy that wanted to buy your ball bearings. Now, of course, the power has been radically Decentralized push downward from ministers at the top all the way down to in many cases the factory level so that that means easier access for the Minnesota business person. Of course the trick is to get to the right Factory to get to the right manager, but that seems to be working a lot better because it does cut bureaucratic time and it does enable minnesotans if they're astute to find the end users also on the American side as the Cold War Wayne's there is obviously less and less a strategic concern for the technology that we used to want to export but which could not go forward because of export controls. And so the process is going to be considerably simplified in coming years because those strategic issues will evaporate over time you think the most Nation trade status is really going to make a significant difference in terms of Minnesota trade with the Soviet Union. I do Bob because it will enable as I said earlier the tariffs on Soviet Imports into our country to be radically reduced the more we can buy from the Soviets the more money we can put in their pocket so that they can then buy more of our goods and services the Radisson Hotel Venture was announced a few days ago. I guess Northwest Airlines is seeking greater access to Soviet air space and so on. What have you been hearing on the Grapevine in terms of the other things that might be coming along? We know that there are more high technology joint ventures in the works particularly in the area of computers testing equipment instrumentation. These joint ventures seem to be again areas where we have a particularly good mesh with developments in the Soviet Union. We're also going to see Bob more joint ventures and and Joint developments in medical care procedures of one kind or another where the Soviets are very very good and where we might not be quite so Advanced the procedure to correct nearsightedness, for example, and we're going to see more and more research and development in areas of very concerned very keen concern to both of us in education for example can computer enhanced education. In-service training in management and I think that one of the most exciting potentials on the horizon is the creation in Moscow of an of a an Institute on entrepreneurship and of minnesotans aren't entrepreneurial there. Nothing that's Richard board director of the Minnesota trade office in a conversation. I had with him a couple of days ago. It's about 15 minutes past 5:00 o'clock is our live coverage of the Gorbachev trip to Minnesota continues. I think you may hear. Yes. You hear it now in the background, that's the sound of the room where the meeting with the Business Leaders is going to be held about half an hour from now President Gorbachev is at the Radisson Plaza Hotel in Downtown Minneapolis, he and mrs. Gorbachev have a rest period scheduled for about a half an hour. Then they will begin the meeting with the Business Leaders and that is expected to last until all about seven o'clock or so, then they'll Leaving the Radisson for Control Data headquarters in Bloomington, that's off Interstate 494. They're down around 34th Avenue or so not too terribly far from the airport from the Control Data meeting. They will go to the airport. They will be a control data for I suppose 3540 minutes something like that looking at a computer display meeting with perhaps the head of Control Data, mr. Perlman, and then then they eventually will be making their way back to the airport and getting on their flight for San Francisco. If you have not heard about other events today prior to coming to Minnesota President Gorbachev and President Bush held a news conference in Washington the to declared their Summit a success and they said they will meet with each other on a regular basis. They confirmed their impasse over the military shape of the United Germany Gorbachev. Also warned Israel that he would consider suspending issuing exit. For Soviet Jews, if they continue to be settled on the West Bank or in Gaza Bush also added the disagreement over the kremlin's treatment of of Lithuania and other Baltic republics that want independence. There was also a quick reminder of Gorbachev's political difficulties at home. He was asked by a reporter for the government newspaper izvestia about his relationship with Boris Yeltsin and to that question Gorbachev replied and I quote. I don't think you've chosen the best place for clarifying our internal problems unquote Gorbachev describe the summit as one of enormous importance and said he is invited Bush to make a state visit to the Soviet Union, the two leaders reached a number of agreements at the soil at the summit among them one to ban production of chemical weapons. They agreed on a framework toward a treaty on cutting nuclear arms and in a concession to Gorbachev, they agreed on a pact to normalize trade relations between the two countries for the first time in 50 years. The news conference Gorbachev embraced several new commercial agreements mentioning IBM and Chevron by name in there prepared statements. They both touched on the success of the summit Gorbachev listing A Fistful of agreements. They also made clear they continue to disagree on the future of a United Germany despite their differences. The presidents agreed the summit had done wonders for their working relationship Bush said, he and Gorbachev have achieved a spirit of Candor and openness Gorbachev said the talks in Washington made it possible to speak of a new phase of cooperation between the u.s. And the Soviet Union acknowledge. There are differences and questions were quickly put to the leaders about festering disagreements on Germany and Lithuania Bush said that Lithuania was indeed one of the thorns in the side of the overall relationship. He said the trade agreement he and Gorbachev signed on Friday won't go to Congress without Soviet enactment of liberalized immigration laws. Bush said he received no Assurance from Gorbachev that the Will lift their economic sanctions against Lithuania. So those are some of the highlights of the news conference that presidents Bush and Gorbachev had just before President Gorbachev took off from Washington en route to Minnesota. There were just a couple of changes in the Gorbachev trip to Minnesota. First of all, the plane arrived a little bit later than expected possibly. That's because they left Washington a little later than expected and that might also have been due to the fact that there are such strong winds from the West Northwest that may have slowed the aircraft down a little bit sometimes I know I've been on flights when that's been the case you sometimes get ahead when it slows you down you get a tail wind speed you up. The other thing major change in the Soviet president's itinerary is the cancellation of the trip to the brand Farm the word came not long after President Gorbachev arrived in the Twin Cities that the party was not in fact going to go down and visit the Richard brand Farm. In Farmington apparently because the Soviets were simply too tired had a chance to visit with John brand the son of the owner of the farm and he said that indeed the family was pretty disappointed with what happened after all they spent a lot of time getting ready for it some of their relatives and driven for as long as 12 hours to be down on the farm to have a chance to visit with Gorbachev, but he said that indeed if they were offered the opportunity of Hosting another major world leader that yes by golly they go through with it and they'd get ready and they give it their best. So 21 minutes now past five o'clock our live coverage continues here on Minnesota Public Radio. We've cancelled all of our regular scheduled programs until the Gorbachev plane leaves some time after eight o'clock this evening. The visit of Gorbachev to the North American continent is certainly gaining widespread coverage for him back at home. But a Radio Moscow reporter we talked to said it would be a mistake to overstate the interest of the Soviet people in the Gorbachev trip. We talked with Irina Sola Sola. She's a reporter and editor for radio moscow's North American Service. She said the popularity of garbage has slipped at home that the Soviet people are looking for action on economic reform (00:23:32) popularity also Gorbachev now comparison to his popularity several years ago has to be looked upon from from different angles when he won a fifth when he came into Power the entire life in this country with so much different from the way it is now that he was perceived as probably the savior in a sense as a And who was determined to see change in this country? And of course, he was hailed and welcome to and he enjoyed really quite a quite a high level of support unanimous support, but for the opposition, of course, we should always been there. Although had a different maybe character several years ago than it has now right now that the things have changed and he is saying that he is going through a declined but he's losing popularity is probably staying just showing just one side of the picture because there is always it's a very complicated picture complex, but you have to know all the other aspects to it one is that today? He is looked upon as a man who should act and you know, the major achievements of the last five years in this country. Of course been associated with Blossom lost and openness in the political sphere rather than the economic sphere the economic reform which has been talked about for so long a time right now has been stalling because probably there hasn't been anything like an economic reform in the proper sense of the word. So right now I think because things are so bad in the economic sphere and the economic aspect. He is expected to act more swiftly more radically in in the economy and on that I think much of his popularity hinges right at the moment. I don't think he is losing popularity on you know, verging on being toppled or anything although prognosis to to that effect abound in in in other countries, and some of the people here are talking about it. I don't think he's really losing the grip on power. The moment I think he is trying to Grapple with too many problems at the moment. And that's not that's not something he is to blame because the overall situation has been too complex to be put to right over a short period of time (00:26:18) use his trip to Minnesota being viewed with any interest by the people over the Soviet Union. (00:26:24) I think like the first president of the country of course is looked upon with some aspiration and hope for the better. Of course for many people here the The Summit in Washington which is going on now and anything that goes beyond the boundaries of the Soviet Union has a slightly minor importance than their own immediate needs and preoccupations and and people are still very much preoccupied by their current problems at the moment that perhaps one of the one of the people I talked the other day too. But as Summit in Washington is like a sideshow, so perhaps it is right in a sense that you know people people are looking upon his trip to the us as something they can hopefully benefit from and if they can interest at least We'll be growing. If not if things that are decided the will only have a side effect on their on their everyday life and of course, you know interest tends to dwindle (00:27:40) Irina solid silver reporter and editor for the North American Service at Radio Moscow. I should explain that she is not part of the media Entourage following Gorbachev around North America rather. She is helping hold down the fort back at Radio Moscow is headquarters. We may be hearing from her little bit later this afternoon to I must say parenthetically what an interesting woman she is and particularly considering the fact that she is only 26 years old. Yes, 26 years old her English is just amazing. She spent some time in Britain she told me but she has not been to the United States and yet she has absolutely Flawless English understood everything that I was certainly able to say to her and I thought was able to speak in a in a very forthright and very Fashion about some complex issues 26 years old kind of kind of makes you a little bit scared doesn't it? It's 27 minutes past 5:00 o'clock. We have the new weather forecasts out for Minnesota and we'll get to those after we pause just for a little break. And it's 28 minutes after five o'clock our live broadcast of the Gorbachev trip to Minnesota continues. And Gary eichten is back from the state capital. You don't look all Frozen. Gary must not have been too bad out there. Well thought out Bobby thought out out a little bit. It was me. It was nippy, but it was well worth the experience and I talked to a several people after the motorcade had left course. He didn't stop at the Capitol. So people didn't have a chance to get out and talk with him and touch him and stuff. But to a person they all said boy. This was well worth the wait and some of them had been there since you know, 10 11 o'clock this morning through several rain storms through biting winds. Uh-huh. It was great. Are you little bit surprised about that Ellen David Heiser that these people would stand there for so long just to get a glimpse of a guy that you know, they'll never meet. Well when we talked about it earlier. I had a great explanation for why the crowds were so small now, you're asking for an explanation of why all these people well they were I do think the crowds were eyes. I was still surprised there weren't People there, you know, maybe there were five. I'm not good at crowd estimates. I would guess maybe 5,000 people up there. But when you think about the twins drawing hundred and 50 or 200 or whatever it was up there. Yeah, it's quite a quite a difference and it is nice to see that kind of turnout as you were saying earlier for an international political figure rather than you know, a rock star Hollywood celebrity kind of reassuring to see that sort of out pouring my the American populations. Mm-hmm. 5:30 is the time. We've got some new weather information. Might as well pass that along here. What we're waiting for is the start of that business meeting down at the Radisson Plaza Hotel that should theoretically get underway at about a quarter to 6:00 here and indications are that it will be available for Li broadcast and we certainly will be bringing you that but if you thought it was a little bit chilly today wait till tonight. Is Believe It or Not a frost advisory in effect for the northern and Eastern portions of Minnesota tonight cloudiness will decrease and skies will clear later on Frost is possible with lows mainly in the 30s and low 40s possible in the southwest chance of showers tomorrow afternoon and Western Minnesota highs will be mainly in the 60s with some low 70s possible in the southwest then Monday night. Mostly cloudy a chance of rain Statewide lows in the 40s and 50s for the Minneapolis st. Paul area frost advisory for tonight temperatures falling through the 40s with mostly clear skies the 30 Tuesday partly cloudy 20 percent chance of showers and temperatures getting a little more seasonable by Tuesday up to the low to mid 70s around the area right now. St. Cloud is cloudy and 50 degrees at Rochester cloudy 48 the wind from the north gusting to 33 Duluth superior, mostly sunny and 50 and Minneapolis. St. Paul Now 51 degrees Cloudy Skies the wind northwest gusting to 25 miles per hour one expert says that the rate of emigration from the Soviet Union has expanded Beyond anyone's predictions Minnesota. He says has one of the highest rates of Soviet emigres resettlement. Robert Aronson is an immigration attorney in Minneapolis for years. He studied the Soviet Union. He speaks the language and as he puts it has a deep affection for the country Robert Aronson credits Mikhail Gorbachev with turning around the Soviet Union's position on allowing its residents to leave. I spoke with him at his Law Office in Minneapolis. Aronson is most familiar. You're with Jewish emigrants from the Soviet Union. The whole rate of immigration is escalating Beyond anyone's wildest dreams. As an example 1985 which one of the low water marks in Immigration less than 1000. So we Jews emigrated from the Soviet Union this year alone in April roughly. 13,000 Soviet Jews came out of the Soviet Union. We're looking at at immigration flows surely to the United States over the next year roughly 40,000. Actually. It's 50 to 60,000 Soviet Jews and minimally 10,000 other nationalities who face a well-founded fear of persecution. In addition to that immigration. Israel is anticipated to to top 100,000 in 1990. This is absolutely unprecedented. Approximately how many Jews are there in the Soviet Union estimates vary officially their 1.8. Million Jews. Depends on how you define a Jew with the chance that Soviet Jews have a certain favored position and leaving the Soviet Union the population of Soviet jewry is increasing progressively by some estimates. It may even reach seven million. So it's somewhere between one point, you know, 5 million 1.8 million 7 million most responsible estimates put it about 3 million. Well still it seems clear that based on those numbers at the majority of people the majority of Soviet Jews are not trying to emigrate are they In strict terms of majority know the United States though. The embassy of the United States has issued approximately 500,000 the called preliminary applications. That is the initial document which Begins the immigration process in addition to that. There are any were certainly the immigration float Israel for this year will be about 100,000 the feeling is that that will continue to escalate so in a strict Majora and strict numerical sense. No, not everyone wants to leave but certainly a disproportionate amount to the population are looking to leave kind of a digression will get back on the main point but the emigration of all those Soviet Jews to Israel in their settlement on the West Bank in the occupied territory seems to be causing great deal of difficulty. What are your views on that? Well it it has become a political football. There's no question about that. But the fact is that less than one half of one percent. Of Soviet Emma Gray's are resettling on the occupied territories. 70% statistically roughly 70% of the Soviet Jews going to Israel are settling within the established metropolitan areas - Tel Aviv Jerusalem. There's where the jobs are. There's were. Those are the areas which can more or less replicate the type of Life. They were used to in the Soviet Union highly urbanized job oriented. I believe that the entire balance of power is not being affected by the immigration of Soviet. Jewry to the Mideast how many of those people come to the to the United States what you said about 40,000 to coming here, but how many come to Minnesota and why do they come here in terms of numbers? The Twin Cities area has been extremely generous in terms of his Hospitality to not only Soviet Jews but but nationalities from throughout the world. We have the highest per capita resettlement of Soviet jewry in the United States. There are in this past year and a Twin Cities roughly 500 individuals have come from the Soviet Union the reasons mainly its family connection. That is Anchor families who can support and help them over the immigration stage. What kind of people are they? What is their background? What are their skills? What do they want to do in this current? Of the wave which is now coming to the United States, they're disproportionately professional in their in their orientation. In other words. What you have is really the middle class giving up on the Soviet Union and making the really radical step of immigration. They are highly oriented toward computer job skills physics, the hard Sciences music number of excellent musicians have immigrated within the past year and you suspect that perhaps the Soviet authorities recognizing this brain drain of a sword are going to try to make life a little more appealing for those folks so that they will not want to leave. I think that there's a general desire to make life more palatable and Soviet Union, but I think that the problems of that country are perhaps now intractable that is the so the Soviet Union and the process of adopting and conforming his behavior certain Norms of international Behavior have been forced to open up its immigration doors and given that possibility Were more Jews are deciding to leave the the Soviet Union. I think that that General tendency is going to continue to escalate tell me a little about your most recent trip over there. And when and when was that, yeah. I just got back from the Soviet Union less than two weeks ago. I was there on a very meaningful interesting project to me. I was putting together a study for National broadcast on the situation of Soviet. Jewry and the position of Soviet jewry vis-à-vis the rise of Russian nationalism during that period of time visited Moscow Leningrad and Riga was with a television crew and Matt during the course of that trip with the current Jewish leadership within the Soviet Union the cultural revivalists among the Jewish community members of the Latvian Jewish Community as well as various government and quasi-official representatives many of them being under Russian nationalistic side. What'd you learn from them? I think the Jewish life today is being shaped by four forces and I think that in light of those four forces the tendency toward an enhanced immigration will continue to escalate first of all under glass - there's a general tendency in the Soviet Union today toward an enhanced self realization of nationalist identity. You see it among Soviet Jews, but you also see it under other nationalities that is scientific communism has proven itself bankrupt people are looking back into their own ethnic roots to take self-definition. Number two going out of this you have the outgrowth of Russian nationalism and a particularly virulent stream of Russian nationalism, which has as one of its Central tenants anti-Semitism and the course of gloss nest in the country being opened up to an increased form of populism and you have a much greater manifestation of anti-Semitic Behavior not Government sources but really from deep-seated suspicions of non-russian population directed toward the Jews number three, you've had a very serious and very bothersome downturn in the economy and an unraveling of the social and political structure making current life more and more unpalatable and the fourth major element shaping Jewish life today is a great suspicion as to Future instability in the country. All of those things put together, I think are making the Jews so we jewelry much more assertive in terms of the right tool to practice their culture and the religion and probably much more of the opinion that they could that can only be done outside of the Soviet Union either in Israel or the United States based on what you've seen over there and the things that you have heard from the folks who've talked to what do you think the future course of that country is do you think it's really going to come apart at the seams? Are is Gorbachev going to be able to hold together? I for the past several years all Soviet ologist have been consistently wrong in the prognostications. If we can start from that premise here is my general feeling from my racing trap. That was Robert Aronson a Minneapolis churning in The Firm of ingeborg and Aronson an expert in the area of immigration from the Soviet Union specifically Jewish emigration.