(00:00:22) It is about a minute past three as the trip to the Twin Cities continues the Soviet president. Now in the governor's residence having lunch after which they'll take a brief motorcade tour of the Twin Cities heading on down towards downtown Minneapolis and the meeting with Business Leaders, Minnesota Public Radio reporter Stephen Smith has been covering the motorcade for the pool of reporters and Steven is now released from his pool duties for the moment and Is With Us by cellular telephone Stephen what's going on? (00:00:52) Well Robert as you know, President Gorbachev is in the governor's mansion. I'm standing just outside in the middle of the street and just a few moments ago. I spoke with Senator Rudy boschwitz who has you know flew with President Gorbachev out here from Washington, and he said that it's his understanding that the visit to the farm is now out because the Soviet delegation is simply too tired to make the trip. Really you said that President Gorbachev boss would said President Gorbachev was up until about well met with President Bush until about 8 o'clock yesterday evening and then was up until about 1 o'clock with other kinds of meetings and that they're simply too fatigued to make the entire trip. It's not clear how that rearranges the rest of the schedule. Perhaps they'll spend more time resting at the hotel in Minneapolis. But in any event, it looks now that the farm portion of his visit according to boschwitz is a lie. (00:01:42) Hmm. Now tell me what you were doing in the pool there as Gorbachev was getting out and making his his little forays into the (00:01:50) crowds running like a maniac I was about car. 34 in the motorcade he is car 13 and when he hops out what happens is we get word by radio that he's going to hop out and talk to people in that we're clear to go and do that. As you know, that security is very tight and we've been warned that if we go places were not supposed to will be shot and stuff like that. And anyway when he jumped out the radio message never really came back. We just sort of took it on faith hopped out of the car ran probably a block and a half and then I have this long fish pole like device on which I bet a microphone attached and what I tried to do is lift that up over the crowd and get in close enough to get some remarks between Gorbachev and members of the crowd that was pretty difficult to do because among other things is being a Soviet tripping the whole thing being planned and organized by the Soviets the Soviet press is a few cars ahead of us. So they got there first and it was hard to get over the the inner ring. Not only that every time I kind of launched my fish pull out over Gorbachev and his crowd KGB. Keep pushing it out of the way. I did manage to hear him talking to a few different people. He was speaking in Russian the Americans of course were speaking in English as I spoke with one young man from the northern suburbs who said he felt great. It was wonderful for him to meet the leader of the Soviet Union. He had an adrenaline. I as a result. He said he told Gorbachev that he was looking good. He said he told the president he was looking good and he claims the president responded. All right, although I think that's somewhat doubtful (00:03:24) in the idea Stephen if these if these visits are pretty well planned in advance. It is Gorbachev Simplicity was driver. Okay. I'm going to get out (00:03:33) here little of both. I think they are very well planned and the the KGB is you know is quite concerned about security. But this is one of you know, this is real life for them. Gorbachev has a habit of doing this. It's one of the things that endears him to both the public and get some good media this idea that he's spontaneous. He loves to just hop out of his car unencumbered and And meet the people, of course when you say hops out of his car and meets the people. He's got a half dozen to a dozen KGB and Secret Service agents around him. He's got the core of press people trying to poke their cameras out over the heads of folks in the microphones in there and the meetings are pretty quick, but it makes for good pictures and it makes I think probably for quite a few headaches for the for the Soviet security. (00:04:17) All right, Steven. Thanks. We'll be checking back with you as the opportunity warrants. Okay, Bob Stephen Smith who is reporting live as part of the motorcade, press pool at the governor's residence right now where the Soviet leader is having lunch along with the other dignitaries five minutes past 3:00 o'clock. Once they finish up with lunch. They're going to take a little motorcade tour from The Summit Avenue area down around John Ireland Boulevard and up to the state capitol. You hear a little sound of their from the state capital coming in under that pool fee. And Gary eichten is with us on his cellular telephone sounds like things are picking up a little bit there, Gary. (00:04:55) A little bit Bob. There are substantially more people here now than there were the last time that we chatted although frankly. I'm amazed at how few people are here. Most of the Constitution Avenue part of the route and a fair amount of John Ireland Boulevard are are flanked by people now cordoned off streets, of course, but for the most part we're talking maybe one or two deep and occasionally their little knots of people five or ten deep but really surprisingly few people (00:05:30) here. Nothing like the turn out there was for the Twins when they won the World Series. (00:05:36) Oh heavens. No that was wall-to-wall people and you couldn't you were hard-pressed to find any green space or any open Asphalt for that matter and I think as I recall a robe like 250,000 people up here 200,000 or whatever here. There's Plenty of open space and although I couldn't guarantee if somebody came out right now. I couldn't guarantee a front row position. You could get awfully close (00:06:06) music you're saying earlier Gary that it appeared that a lot of the people who were there were protesting or in some ways trying to show their dissatisfaction with Gorbachev. Is it still pretty much those folks or is (00:06:18) it I think it's balanced. I understand there are probably more people here now just to see Gorbachev than to send her a message. Although again. It would be it would be incorrect to describe this as a small group of protesters in relation to the rest of the crowd maybe a small group of protesters, but the crowd isn't very big (00:06:36) crowd to yeah. (00:06:37) It's it's really it's fascinating and I would be interested to find out why obviously the weather is played a part. There's no question about that. The weather was just horrid earlier. It's better now, it stopped raining and it is not quite as windy, but you wonder how much interest there really is in this event. (00:06:55) Well, you do Gary and I thank you very much for checking in with us. We will get back to you in a little bit Gary eichten reporting live from the state capital area where the Gorbachev motorcade will be driving by in the course. Certainly, I would guess in the next half hour or so as for the current conditions in the Twin Cities light rain at the airport, officially 49 degrees. The temperature the wind is from the north of 21 gusting to 28 miles an hour. So the winds are dropping down a little bit in velocity, but it's still what you'd have to call a fairly raw Blustery Day out there. Let's check in with crystalline briefly who is at Downtown Minneapolis in the general area of the Radisson Plaza Chris (00:07:33) if volume in the Harvest House cafeteria, just the upstairs from Woolworths that half a block down from the Radisson Hotel where the Business Leaders will be meeting with the President Gorbachev in a while folks are having a little lunch here. No breaded walleye that I can see it's mostly a coconut cream pie and coffee. This is the only window seat. Inside with a view of the Radisson and I could find people have been scrambling around down here trying to find a place to be inside out of the rain out of the wind and still be able to see what's going on here in an hour or so ago, but the police of effectively cordoned off the whole block cut off all the skyways. Nobody can get into the sky ways that are in the area but here at the Harvest House the every window seat is taken. (00:08:19) All right, very good. Thank you crystalline reporting live from Downtown Minneapolis at the the business meeting President Gorbachev would meeting with the heads of a number of major American companies. Originally that was seen as an opportunity for him to meet with Minnesota Business Leaders and Minnesota Agri Business Leaders, apparently at the insistence of the Soviets the the scope of the meeting was expanded to include the heads of other major American companies, and we know that one of the people has been invited to attend is Roger Smith the outgoing chairman of General Motors number of other major in Three leaders are they're going to be there too. Patty Dale and Evelyn David Heiser are with us in the studios. Helen is from the University of Minnesota Patty from st. Olaf College. Both our political scientists who specialize in the Soviet Union. Do you think Evelyn that Gorbachev is trying to turn his country into a capitalist Society? No, do you want some elaborate? Yes, I can because that's a pretty unequivocal out. There are many different models of economic systems from which Gorbachev can can choose not to say that Gorbachev or more likely his policy advisors will take another economic system wholesale and and pop it on top of the existing Soviet economy, but they're looking at European systems from which they can take different elements of the economy certainly marketization has Come and important keyword for Soviet economic reform trying to get prices reflect supply and demand in a way that they just haven't in the past in the Soviet Union and and that's why Western commentators like to say they're moving to capitalism, right? That's very introducing Market forces. As a means of pricing Goods is very different than introducing private property. The Soviets are much more tentative on that and if you think about the ideology, it's the private property. It's the arrangement of the means of production if you if you will that really matters but doesn't one really follow from the other. I mean how much can you have Market forces determining the prices of goods without before long you have to have private ownership of the means to produce those goods their different forms of private ownership. Well, first of all, you can you can maintain State ownership in Certain sectors of the economy certainly many of the Western European countries have have done that some of the heavy Industries infrastructure and so forth you maintain you can maintain State ownership in those areas. You can promote cooperatives as Gorbachev has done in the consumer goods and consumer services Industries where rather than the workers being paid wages, like being paid by the hour by the piece. There are profit sharing Arrangements that get away from the sort of exploitation that's associated with capitalism that the Soviets want to and have to stay away from Freddie a logical reasons so that you can introduce Market forces as far as price setting is concerned, but you can avoid things like like wage labor Petty Dale. Do you what do you see him doing there some extent I disagree with evil and In his speech assuming after assuming the new presidency gorbachov talked about the introduction of a capital market and to the extent that Capital will be traded then I think we can talk about the introduction of capitalism to the Soviet Union. But list that is not to say that it will dominate the whole of the economy. Also. It is not to say that Soviet capitalism will be like, let us say American capitalism capitalism can exist in a number of different political Frameworks and what we may see I think is the growth of State capitalism were the political Elite cells what is now public property to itself And becomes a property holding. Bureaucratic class so I think we are seeing the beginnings of Soviet capitalism, but it is not that is not to say that the Soviet economy is going to become like the American economy commentator Patty Dale along with Ellen David Heiser here to make some observations about the situation in the Soviet Union as our live broadcast of President Gorbachev strip to the Twin Cities continues 14 minutes now past 3 o'clock. I should think it won't be too terribly long before they wrap up their lunch and begin. The motorcade tore down Summit Avenue word is the official word is now I have it that the trip to the farm has indeed been canceled the trip to the farm is off and Steven Smith told us that earlier by way of Senator Rudy boschwitz. Apparently the Soviet delegation just too plain pooped out to go down and traipse around in the mud on that farm down there been a rather cold day. They're probably not dressed for it. They'd just as soon get on their way and get some rest I suspect well. Showed a governor Rudy perpich is certainly having the last laugh. At least he is today the governor's invitation to President Gorbachev to visit Minnesota was met with laughter from the governor's political opponents some months ago. But Gorbachev is here and the conventional political wisdom is that Rudy perpich is the main beneficiary but political operative DJ Larry says, it's a little too early to make a clear judgment. I talked with DJ and his colleague why Spano about the political impact in Minnesota of the garbage visit five days from now, they'll be the State dfl Convention that will be the first measurement most of us had observed when former Commissioner of Commerce might hatch got into the election Fray against the incumbent of his own party earlier this year. There was one thing that seemed for certain and that was that the endorsement of that party was kind of going to be a slam dunk for for hatch because he had been the party chair. He kept all those mailing lists and Really worked hard and toiled in the vineyard of the dfl rank and file and the people who go to conventions the the chairs of the various counties and it was from that group a lot of support for his candidacy came. So that looked like it was going to be kind of an easy shot and that even perfect would be smart not to even contest for it. Well purpose announced somewhat into his re-election campaign that he was going to contest for the endorsement bit of a surprise. He made that announcement first and then a couple days later his campaign manager had to resign because he was so busy with his own private legal work. So he picked up a campaign manager John Stanek who's very very capable about a month before the dfl caucus has which is the start of the endorsement process and ever since then purpose has been doing surprisingly well, but I must say that's in contrast to What is perceived to be hats not doing quite as well as we'd expect it and let's face the facts on that that might catch is a victim of expectations unfulfilled. I mean, it's nothing he's done wrong. Anything in that regard is just wackos like me that sit around and trying to put their finger in the air and say that's funny. It's not coming the way I thought it was so therefore the rules a little crazy, but I think when you look at it that perspective then we know that we have a measurement tool later this month and that's the clearly the dfl convention to see what the Gorbachev is. It has done. Well, the timing couldn't have worked out better for Rudy perpich really coming just one week before that convention. The timing really is exquisite for Democrats period because you look that you take today June 3rd and 5 days, hence will be the dfl State Convention. Now that's very very good for purpose because he's got a contest there somebody of his own party and it changes a lot of his image and Idea that he was old tired worn-out been Governor longer than anybody in history the state but then right behind it again for Democrats June 12th is the schedule started the hearings for Senator Durbin Burgers problems, and then just behind that by about three days. I believe the IR State Convention and if you're an independent Republican and trying to Vie for good headlines for your candidates for Governor that at least two of them that are going to be in that convention contest and you're fighting for headlines with one of your senior Statesman in terms of your United States Senator. It's a bit of a problem. So it's been good timing for Democrats all the way around these first couple weeks of June. I'll be interested to see how the national media portray. Really perfect Jan the state of Minnesota Newsweek, of course came up with the much quoted Governor goofy phrase. What's your expectation on? How will fare in the national? Press? Well, I've been talking to an awful lot of them both the national press and the international press. I have a lot of Old Friends. Flatter me. Bye. Bye still calling me. You understand and and everything. You're exactly right. Everything is counter positioned against the governor goofy article that Newsweek did earlier this year and I have this feeling as I've traveled about the state since the Gorbachev visit was announced that that is helped purpose because it gave its shifted everything that was a debit as it were against him over to the credit column where they said an outsider might have thought of this is Goofy in the list. One, two, three, four things. Clearly. Let's recall that his announcing. He was inviting the Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev to visit him in Minnesota when he came for the summit. Hahaha. They were falling in the street laughing and uh, and to say that at that time the purpose was doing badly in the polls and the public opinion is an understatement something akin to saying Mozart wrote a good tune or two. No, I mean this he was in deep deep trouble and getting deeper and getting worse. So I think that when they mix it all in that now he looks like somebody with with some Vision you understand that he's back to that idea that the that he brought back to Minnesota in the 82 campaign that the future Economic Development the state really lies in international trade and he's been able to attract a visit from one of the foremost figures of the late 20th century. Let's bring why Spano in here he is DJ's co-editor with politics in Minnesota a newsletter. That's very widely read by people in the political know here in Minnesota. Why would you think that there's really much interest in the public on the Public's part of a world leader coming to Minnesota? And is that going to have much of an impact on on Rudy perpich? I haven't seen any like polling data. I just you know, just people I've been so stunned at how many people I run into remember when we were talking about having Gorbachev like give a big address. Yeah. So many people say boy. I'm going to take my kid to that. I want to see that and people talking about going out to the airport and you know stuff like that. I mean there's there's a real I'm impressed. I'm surprised there's purpose benefit tremendously from that heard don't the people necessarily attached that much of it to him you bet he does. I just can't see how this doesn't help a lot. You know, you're playing on a whole different stage. I mean to me the only thing that can happen now that hurts / Pages if something terrible happens if the summit breaks up and he goes home, you know and doesn't finish the trip or or But you know absent that kind of stuff. I just don't see how Rudy perpich doesn't look like there. He is, you know with a world leader being being gubernatorial. I just I can't see how it doesn't help him. It meant a lot Bob. Don't forget to every past administration that wanted to stay in office whether it was Lyndon Johnson or Richard Nixon or Ronald Reagan. Certainly George Bush to try and get a meeting in with the Soviet leader who ever happened to be at the particular time. Most recently. It's been a Gorbachev and if it was important enough to them and they could arrange it they did it. Now the same thing I think whatever benefit politically they felt inured to that Vantage into their advantage of that just falls off on perfect shot to a certain degree in Minnesota politics. Well, here's Rudy perpich talking with the most charismatic world leader of the day. Mikhail Gorbachev, do you think this revives really purpose his own interest in running for higher office like the presidency. It'll help him politically enormously if he doesn't mention it, that's right. This is not the time to start in on that one. I thought you were good at when you praise that question. I thought you were going to ask whether or not some of the Charisma would read rub off. Yeah, I'm Rudy perpich. What do you think? I don't know that you can teach that old dog. All those new tricks. He seems to survive anyway, so I think we finally figured out that he doesn't need all that much Charisma and he doesn't need to be the world's greatest orator somehow he seems to to hang in with us. Anyway why Spano along with DJ Leary longtime political observers and operatives in Minnesota. They publish a newsletter called politics in Minnesota 23 minutes past 3:00 o'clock. This is Minnesota Public Radio is live coverage of President Gorbachev as visit to the Twin Cities. We have cleared out our schedule for the entire afternoon and early evening so we can bring you this live. Continuous coverage the visit to the farm has definitely been canceled. That is the word that we are seeing on our wire service reports. It's the word we got from Stephen Smith a little while ago via Senator boschwitz that the Gorbachev party has decided to cancel the visit to the brand Farm in Farmington, Minnesota. So that really leaves after the luncheon concludes at the Mansion the motorcade tore down Summit Avenue and around the capital complex area down Interstate 94 to the Radisson Plaza Hotel in Downtown Minneapolis and a meeting with Business Leaders. Then presumably still on the schedule is the visit to Control Data headquarters in Bloomington, just the farm visit so far as we understand at this point has been dropped from the schedule our commentators Patty Dale and Evelyn David Heiser are with us here in the studios Gary eichten at the at the Capitol was mentioning that there really aren't that many people coming out to see Gorbachev. Does that surprise you Patti? I mean the weather certainly is a factor, but it doesn't seem like it's been the Draw that. Everybody was expecting it to be. I think there was a similar occurrence in Washington DC and perhaps this is an indicator of how God which has become part of the furniture that his visit is not that big a deal he is. An accepted and familiar political leader now. Well, I can kind of see that in Washington because they're used to heads of state coming in there just about as often as you and I turned down her shirt collar, but minute this is Minnesota and there hasn't been a Soviet leader come to the Hinterlands since 31 years ago Nikita Khrushchev in 1959 and Iowa, but the world is more technologically open and we can see garbage off on the tube in our home practically every night. Can't wait. Yeah on the news. Yeah Ellen, what do you think? There's also a big difference in American opinions of the Soviet Union between in 1990 as compared to 1959. If we think of I mean this may be evidence of Gorbachev's success in opening the Soviet Union to the Western World the average American doesn't see the Soviet Union as the evil empire anymore. It's not such a curious. Thing to see a Soviet leader. It's you know in the 1950s to see a communist was to see another animal the devil in per day practically. It's not that way and we have an image of Gorbachev as someone who maybe isn't even a communist. Maybe he just has that title. So you can't go out and see the devil incarnate this Sunday. Do you think that the that the Minnesota media have gone overboard in this whole thing? Somebody said that there would I don't know before this event happened. They said this would have about as much substance or less substance. Actually than the Twins winning the World Series. Well, I apparently the population thinks that the media has gone overboard and and they're tired of it already. I suppose the crowds would seem to suggest that although again the weather is probably a factor. I think the point that was made earlier the style of Gorbachev's visit is not exactly conducive to drawing crowds if he had decided to give a major address. It would be something to take the children to write the best one can hope for is to see his motorcade pass along and if you are really lucky you'll happen to be at the point where the motorcade stops but where that is. No one knows. So why go stand in the rain sure. This is a business visit. He has come to tell the businessmen of Minnesota that it is worthwhile for them to further explore the possibilities of doing business in the Soviet Union. He will acknowledge that there are some difficulties that Let's visit and I know my time is limited I have business to do and then I must move on that is the tone of this visit and he and he is a fairly tough business negotiator to isn't he? Yeah. Well, that's correct. And it also points to constituency that he's interested in on this trip in past trips Focus has been on arms control issues the kinds of issues that it really helps to stir sort of general public Sympathy for the Soviet Union the Soviet leader those kinds of things what he wants to accomplish on this trip is to improve economic ties work on the issue of most favored nation status develop a constituency in the United States. It's going to push for those kinds of ties and that's something that he can get from the business Community but not too likely from the general public. So Evelyn David hyzer and Patty Dale our commentators. They are both political scientist shoes with the University of Minnesota. And Patty is with st. Olaf College in Northfield 29 minutes past 3:00 o'clock our live broadcast of President Gorbachev visited. The Twin Cities is made possible by the international public relations consulting firm of Padilla spear Beardsley. Let's go down to the Radisson Plaza Hotel now where Governor where President Gorbachev will be heading after the motorcade tour of the Twin Cities ends where he will be heading for a meeting with Business Leaders from around the nation and around the Midwest. Lorna Moto is standing by down at the Radisson. Hello Lauren. Hi Bob. How's it going down there? Well, we're just all sort of getting set up down here. We got a one of those small armies of press people down here as you probably have seen and heard so much about today and being down on 7th street here. We're sort of experiencing that Minneapolis wind tunnel effect today with the winds whistling Down Under the skyways and doing their best to blow all the equipment around and everything. Well, I think that you'll find that wind tunnel effect almost anywhere Lauren because the last I saw in the weather wire it was gusting up to Miles an hour out of the North so it's not a very chipper day out there. No, it's worse down here on the street. Believe me. Have you seen any evidence of any of the the bigwig business leader showing up yet? We haven't seen any movement yet on the street here Bob all the streets in Downtown Minneapolis are pretty much cordoned off. We noticed we they brought us over here on a bus from the Metrodome of course and as we came through downtown went up and came across on 7th street, we could see that for several blocks in either direction from the bus the streets were blocked off no traffic at all in the cross streets. No traffic running parallel to us either. So basically it's going to be a straight shot as soon as the biggest Business Leaders do start to arrive, but at this point still people still trying to put up some banners around the front of the Radisson making things look presentable for those big shots when they do show up. Is it your understanding learn that the business meeting is still going to be open to broadcast coverage latest where we had Bob over at the Press office at the Metrodome was that yes, the meeting would not only be open. But in fact there would be sound from that meeting available on What's called the pool. The comment feed to the media and that we'd be able to hear everything that transpires there and then apparently afterward also some of the Business Leaders are planning to meet with reporters. I won't say individually, but certainly in a smaller group so that there might be a chance to kind of debrief them about their impressions of Gorbachev and how the meeting went. Well terrific Lauren will be checking back back with you as the afternoon continues and as we get closer to the scheduled time of that business meeting the official schedule now looks this way that at 4:15 the Gorbachev party will be going to the Radisson will be leading the Radisson around seven o'clock for a trip to the Control Data headquarters in Bloomington and whether there will be a period for a little rest down there at the Radisson or whether the business meeting is going to be a little bit longer than we expected as a little unclear at this point. I suspect it'll just be a little rest time and then the plan is to leave for the airport just around just a little before eight o'clock the visit to the farm having been canceled word on that coming. About a half an hour ago. Gary eichten is standing by up at the state capitol on the cellular cellular phone and we'll check in with him now. I'll go Gary. (00:31:01) All right, Bob. Actually, the crowd is starting to pick up. These people are smarter than I am but they didn't get out here until just the nick of time. Yeah, actually the crowd start to pick up pretty good. And of course we're getting close to the time for the motor kids or other than standing out here like fools in the rain when it was cold. They just waited until it was time and headed on over so the crowd his building pretty good (00:31:23) and is it appear that it's mostly sightseers and not so many protesters. (00:31:29) Well, there's still a lot of a lot of people here are sending a message hmm sending a message. In fact, I'm the thing that struck me is kind of interesting and I don't know that this means anything but take it for what it's worth. There are a lot of flags here, especially Latvian and especially Latvian flags. And then we have Estonian flags and I think that's a Russian flag down the road. They're not absolutely certain of that only one American flag so far, but it's right in front of the Capitol interestingly enough where according to the unofficial Lottery that's underway if mr. Gorbachev stops. It's assumed that he's going to stop right in front of the Capitol and that's been the most popular spot to stand (00:32:12) what sort of unofficial honor you talking about (00:32:14) there Gary. Well Bob, we can't talk about that on the (00:32:17) air. I see. All right, as far as the crowd are there any other many families with little kids there show the little ones a glimpse of Gorbachev. (00:32:27) There are some there are Thumb and well, actually there are a fair number but it's so cold Bob and I think a lot of people really did stay away because of the weather is becoming more and more convinced of that because there does seem to be some genuine enthusiasm starting to build here. Now as we get closer to the actual time when he's going to drive (00:32:45) by. Okay, very good. Well Chris Chris Roberts was suggesting to us earlier in the day that the festivities for grandal day, which usually was expected to draw about 200,000 people appeared to be down considerably because of the weather tool so I suspect that that you're absolutely right about that. Well, thanks Gary. We'll check back with you as as it looks like the motorcade is is going to begin to depart. They're all right, Bob 25 minutes. Now before four o'clock, one of the people who has covered the Soviet Union for many many years was Moscow bureau chief for the New York Times for a number of years and has won just about every award that the journalism profession can confer on individual is mr. Harrison Salisbury a native of Minneapolis. Graduate of the University of Minnesota and he is on the line with me now from his home in Connecticut. Mr. Salisbury. Thank you for joining us today. Well, I'll tell you this much. It's bitter cold out here. It's about 48 degrees with a Brisk wind. So you'd need to wear your heavy clothes. That's for (00:33:44) sure. Mr. Gorbachev sense of what he's going back to in Russia. (00:33:48) I think that's probably true. Right? I want to ask you mr. Salisbury if you by any chance and this is really just a shot in the dark question. If you by any chance were involved in covering Nikita Khrushchev trip to Iowa when he was here 31 years ago. (00:34:03) I couldn't have been more involved. I was with him every step of the way. I was with him and that famous day at Roswell garst the farm when Garth was showing him how he grew corn and how he processed it and indeed I was right after Garth side and Khrushchev side when Doris began throwing corn cobs at photographers who were getting in the way of Gustav's look, Is his corn loading operation he was doing it with some with some bulldozers and loaders and the photographers were so excited. They grew so couldn't get a good look Garcia started throwing his corn cobs Adam and then he started making a swirling kick to get them out of the way and said if you followers don't get out of the way. I'll kick you out her away and he let forth this great kick and got me in the (00:34:56) shin. (00:34:57) He's very tough the sentence in great surprise. He said even if your name is Harrison Salisbury big (00:35:04) moment, what what sort of a what sort of a person was Khrushchev and particularly in comparison to (00:35:12) Gorbachev. Well, he was a very much out front he He was what I would call a populist politician people in Iowa. And I think people in Minnesota also would have said that that heading and running on the farmer-labor ticket. He probably would have swept the field. He he was very down to earth and full of homegrown gestures and things of that kind of this got into a lot of trouble such as when he he took his shoe off in the United Nations and bang on the table, but he was a he was a he was a popular guy. He won friends because people sense that he was earthy and he was he was really very interested in farming and all that sort of thing. I had great curiosity as to how people lived and worked in all that are gorbachov is much more laid-back. He's a much more sophisticated man. Khrushchev had had no college education Gorbachev has our Khrushchev really was a self-made man a self-made politician. He come up really from the very depths in the just down on the board of the Ukraine. Gorbachev has had all the Advantages of a different era and he while he has many of the same objectives both men. Wanted to get Russia going again Barbershop. Does it with modern technology and modern the Slick techniques that Khrushchev wouldn't have known how to handle. (00:36:32) Well Khrushchev had appears to have had a much tighter grip on on the country. Then then Gorbachev does at least at the moment. Is that true? (00:36:41) I think that's probably true in is because he came after me and after styling you see when things were in such a state of Terror and turmoil that he came in as the guy who was going to fix the machine and he won enormous sir support to because he was such a relief after what they had but he really shocked the people when he made that famous speech your against sound the secret speech exposing all the crimes and things have been going on and and I have to say that many people in Russia didn't think he should have talked to her. Thank you. They thought that he did exactly the right thing. But he stepped on the toes of a great many of his bureaucrats. His military people is other as fellow politicians and he had plenty of political trouble. He he didn't manage his Affairs very tightly on the other hand Gorbachev has got plenty of political trouble to (00:37:34) what Linda Christians downfall (00:37:36) I think basically is cut in the armed forces you cut about a million men out of the army including about I don't know maybe five or six thousand generals and they didn't like losing their perks and things of that kind and they got together with some of the politicians Brezhnev in particular who didn't like his his campaign against the bureaucrats and they cost him out. (00:38:00) How is Gorbachev or I'm sorry. How is Khrushchev remembered today (00:38:04) are he is remember very fondly in Russia. They didn't like him too much while he was there the intellectuals up look down on him. Now. They think of them as a very benign force a guy who did his best but couldn't make it. (00:38:16) And of course the other thing that has changed so dramatically is basically while Khrushchev was a very active ingredient in the Cold War Gorbachev seems to be a very active participant in ending the Cold (00:38:29) War. Well, this is true, but I also would have to say a word for Khrushchev whom I knew damn well that he he was very eager to end the Cold War and when he came back when he came over to the United States and and finally sat down with Eisenhower at Camp David, he thought that he did have a cold war on the way out really but unfortunately Ike was supposed to go to Russia and have a big trip over there and unfortunately on the 1st of May of that year, which would have been about 1960. I guess the you two were shot down over Moscow on a day and that blew the trip out and they blew blew the end of the Cold War off for several years. (00:39:12) How close do you think the United States ever came to nuclear war? The Soviet Union. (00:39:17) Well, I think they came very close. I think that the the most critical moment was undoubtedly the Cuban Missile Crisis when it was touch and go I think that before that followed was a great deal of thunder and talk and all that are both sides. They showed a lot of responsibility and actually they did in the Missile Crisis as well. But but in those years you were just living on the edge of the possibility of nuclear war and that's now been pushed way way back first of all through Reagan and Gorbachev and now through Bush and (00:39:50) Gorbachev. I just one more question. I'll let you get back to your other activities there. I'd love to talk to you for an hour be so interesting. But do you think Gorbachev is going to (00:39:57) survive? I'm sorry to say I think that he is not I think that in spite of all his accomplishments here at the summit. Are he goes back to face a very very difficult political situation. I don't know how long he can do it. He's a masterly Manipulator of the tightrope he walks he walks in Terror all the time and something which I don't think many people have noticed is that there are going to be one or two more Summits this year and I think that he hopes that by virtue of those that they may be able to get through this year and is an ex Twitter, but I was just in Moscow and I confess I did not find a single person who thought that he would still be in office a year from now. Mmm-hmm (00:40:48) Harrison Salisbury, you have been out to Minnesota on a number of occasions on book tours. Do you have any other books in the works right (00:40:54) now? Well, I'm working on a big book about China but I've got a lot of work to do on it yet. It won't be finished for for nearly a year. I'll be out in Minnesota again though. I like car like my native state a lot and I enjoy visiting it (00:41:06) great. Well, I hope you'll have a chance to stop by Minnesota Public Radio. We'd love to put you on the air. Okay. Thanks a million (00:41:12) right over here in (00:41:13) Salisbury longtime, New York Times. Respondent author of many many books on the Soviet Union and on China, he has covered just about every hot spot in the world during the course of his long journalistic career. It is 17 minutes before 4 o'clock our live coverage of President Gorbachev strip to the Minneapolis st. Paul area continues. We anticipate that we will be going to the motorcade out of the luncheon in just a few minutes. Mr. Dusko daughter is on the line with us. Now, I believe from Chicago if I'm not mistaken. He is the author of a biography on Mikhail Gorbachev. Mr. Deodhar. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you. Tell me what your impressions are of Gorbachev particularly coming out of this Summit in Washington. Did he get what he needed to (00:42:04) get? I don't think he got what he wanted to get. I think he got a little bit but not enough to show that he is been strong and successful in on the (00:42:15) strip. Whatwhat did he not get that he should have (00:42:18) I think he should have gotten he wants to get mfn. And I think he wanted to get more in the way of something tangible economically. I think that the visit to Minnesota and San Francisco is going to be more successful from his point of (00:42:30) view. Hmm in terms of the disagreement over Germany. Do I gather they did not really resolve much of anything at all there. What do you think the the scenario is for (00:42:41) that? Well, I think mr. Gorbachev was situation is very difficult there. As you know, the NATO does exist why Warsaw Pact has disintegrated. In fact, we have a problem trying to find a mission for NATO and I think that his references to to the wartime trauma that the Russians still feel about about Germany about it has encouraged President Bush has been sensitive to it. But this is the situation cannot be resolved as quickly. I (00:43:14) think we Just hearing from Harrison Salsbury seconds ago who said that on a trip to Moscow that he'd just returned from he didn't find anybody who thought Gorbachev would still be in power a year from now. Do you concur with that? (00:43:28) Yes, I do. I think that you know predicting, you know, what a man is wrong 50% of the time of course, and then it's very hard to say but it's very difficult to see how he can continue to play a magician and pull these rabbits out of the hat hat is really getting smaller and smaller and the rabbits begin to look sicker and sicker. (00:43:52) Well what follows Gorbachev then in terms of not necessary just you know, in terms of personalities of a leader number one and secondly policies. Will they were will it become a more repressive Society will reverse the course of perestroika. What do you (00:44:06) think? I think that you have emerged and so a number of younger people who now Attractive political figures but I don't think that they that they do have a program of their own. I think the stroke is dead. I think Roberto is a great figure because you liberated his own country and he liberated Eastern Europe what I see as the most likely scenario is that you will have a sort of a hard-line regime temporarily regime backed up by the Armed Forces. (00:44:43) All right, sir. Thank you very much. Let's go daughter who has written a biography on on president Mikhail Gorbachev speaking to us live on the telephone from Chicago interesting while mr. Daughter was making the response that yes, he doesn't think Gorbachev will be in power a year from now both of our commentators Petty Dale and Ellen David Heiser were shaking their heads. No rather vehement lie. I'd like to hear you explain. Why well, I mean you asked the right question if no Gorbachev, then who then what It's not a question of Gorbachev being able to come through on his policies as much as it is a question of what or who can replace Gorbachev I think and I don't think that there's a politically viable force waiting in the wings able to replace gorbachov. We hear a lot of talk about the military being discontent the military waiting to to else gorbachov and promote a conservative solution the Soviet military simply has never been in that kind of political position. They they have a strong interest in the success of perestroika because they're not getting the kinds of high-tech toys that military's like so they're not I mean certainly their generals who are you know, upset that they were retired early or whatever, but the military is a whole isn't a significant threat to Gorbachev the most difficult. Well, he's got to Problems facing him that the economy in the nationalities. There isn't a viable Solution on the economy. There's no one standing out there offering an alternative policy yeltsin's been harping on the slow speed of perestroika the lack of success of perestroika, but not offering a policy alternative. He's been saying it's too slow. But I oppose the new market reforms that were discussed in the last couple weeks. He is not a viable solution one might imagine a scenario where the union breaks up into its various component republics, but they're very strong economic reasons why that's not really a viable solution either and why a complete dissolution of the Union along nationalities lines isn't very likely either. So so and Patti you you will see also Gorbachev continuing on. Yes, I do he is not Upon the support of his colleagues in the politburo. He has a constitutionally guaranteed position with the Constitution provides for his removal only if the Supreme Court of the Soviet Union finds him guilty of violating his Constitutional Powers and they are now very considerable. We might can compare garbage of right now to the dictated in the Republic of Rome that is so that is to say constitutionally guaranteed powers for a limited period and a limited purpose and in four years little more than four years time God, which of has to come up for re-election. He has that period within which to do something about the economy the possibility of his extra-constitutional removal by a coup d'etat, I think Is very limited the military is divided and yes, there are a lot of people grumbling and there are a lot of people dissatisfied but that need not turn into the Revolutionary overthrow. We also must remember there were a lot of people dissatisfied with the way things used to be there was a lot of frustrated Talent a lot of young people sick and tired of of the ineptitude of the gerontocracy of of the governance by old people. So yes, there is dissatisfaction. There is grumbling. Sometimes there's nothing in the shops. I do not see this translating into Gorbachev's removal commentator Patty deal from st. Olaf College in Northfield and Evelyn David Heiser from the University of Minnesota. Both our political scientists who specialize in the Soviet Union. Well, it's about 10 minutes before 4 o'clock. Where do things stand here? The Gorbachev folks are still so Far as we can tell at the governor's mansion in st. Paul finishing up their lunch. They will begin a motorcade tour of st. Paul down Summit Avenue around the capitol complex area and down Interstate 94 to downtown Minneapolis a meeting with Business Leaders at the Radisson Plaza Hotel from there. They will be going to Control Data headquarters in Bloomington. And then on to the Twin Cities International Airport for departure to San Francisco at around 8 o'clock or so the visit to the farm in Farmington, Minnesota, the brand Farm has been canceled. And it is about 8 minutes down before four o'clock our live coverage of the Gorbachev. Visit continuing I have on the telephone line with me now John brand who is a member of the Brand family in Farmington who had been prepared to receive. Is the Gorbachev party at their farm this afternoon? When did you find out John that the trip to the farm was (00:50:55) canceled. I was feeding causal earlier going to milk a little early. I suppose it's been about a half hour know that I actually found out. I was actually in the barn. Mmm, and then it was still kind of iffy thing. But now it's for sure. They just started tearing everything down right now the trailers and what (00:51:13) did you hear about why they decided to cancel (00:51:17) sounded like he's pretty exhausted and they wanted maybe more time at some of the other sites. I guess. (00:51:23) How do you feel about this? (00:51:25) Pretty disappointed? Well, I would imagine we put a lot of work and relatives that have drove as far as 12 hours then a lot of a lot of volunteer work that's coming here. We volunteered a lot of people cleaning up right now, so It's quite disappointing but it looks like we can go up to the airport. So (00:51:45) all you're going to be able to go to the airport and then will you have a chance to meet him at least or (00:51:50) at Lair? They're thinking maybe we can so at least see him. So (00:51:53) yeah. Well that really is too bad because like you say everybody was all prepared for it looked like (00:51:58) we're going to kind of react even went through the whole thing. It was actually, you know, right world every step of the way. So we're going to actually the day was going to end out. Okay here we probably could have been our at the picnic table towards the end of the milk and cheese cake and everything. So how (00:52:14) was how was the they're talking about it being kind of Muddy for the walk around the the outdoors that was at a problem where had you gotten that taken care (00:52:21) of? That wasn't a problem. I sure hope that getting a you're getting her shoes little dirty went with wasn't what stopped at. I hope but no we had they had he broke open. So it wouldn't have been a problem. We had crushed rock. We had a lot of rock hauled in and it actually dried up a little bitter. (00:52:39) Well, this is going to make you think twice the next time a big Comes through (00:52:44) I don't think so. We'll go through it again. It was fun. Good. Well disappointed. (00:52:49) Yeah John. Thank you. Thank you so much for talking to us. Okay. Thank you, sir for calling sorry. It didn't work out John brand who member of the family that President Gorbachev was going scheduled to go and visit down in Farmington, but unfortunately that is not to happen yet this afternoon. It is now about five minutes before 4 o'clock. As you know, one of the people who helped arrange the visit of President Gorbachev to Minnesota is allies Lee a public relations consultant in Washington Isley along with Control Data Corporation founder William Norris and other control did a company Executives lay the groundwork for the visit Isley Works in Washington. Now, as I said, he's a native a blue worth in southern Minnesota and is worked for former Senator and vice president Walter Mondale when I talked with him yesterday. I asked him if Gorbachev would have canceled his trip if he hadn't gotten what he wanted out of the summit. Well, he hasn't gotten the agreement to seek most favored nation trade status yet. He wanted that but he did get a very good surprise bonus which was the trade agreement that they signed they still they still don't have the mfn status, but he probably will get that. I think he would have come. Anyway, I think he really needs he really needs Minnesota as much more than Minnesota needs him. He needs to demonstrate to his own people that he has political popularity in the US and he still has stature as a world leader around the around the in other countries and he needs to demonstrate that he can enlist American the help of American Business Community to help improve the economy and above all to raise the living standards of the Soviet citizens. Do you have any idea why I took so long for him to set the agenda here. You mean beyond the soda again? I think it's just the Soviet way of doing things. I think that they they did not have time to focus on that because they were so concerned about the first part of the trip which was The Washington Summit portion of it. And again, I think that they wanted to go out which has very good at PR. I mean, I'm in the business but he's much better than I am and he he doesn't do anything without calculated intent and I think he wanted to to have the best forums here in the best the best kind of agenda that he could use to to deliver his message. Why do you suppose there's so many non Minnesota Business Leaders involved in that in that business meeting in the afternoon. That doesn't that kind of shift the focus away from Minnesota little bit. Well, I think that it does but again that's that the Soviets request they wanted from the very first they have made it clear that they wanted representation from not only Minnesota, but from the Midwest the 12 surrounding 10 or 12 surrounding states. I met with a number two men in the embassy about two weeks ago. And that was one of the first points he made was that they want broader representation than just Minnesota. What do you think the Practical outcome of all this is to be well, I guess it's going to take a little while to see but I think the I think at the best there will be a there will be two things happen one. There will be some some real business deals done as a result of this joint ventures and other sorts of business outcomes of business Arrangements, Minnesota companies, I think and Midwestern companies will actually do considerable more business with the Soviets in the coming months. The second thing I think which in many ways is important or more important will be a real better understanding by the American people of what it is that that the Soviet Union needs in and I think we go back to former Vice President Humphrey always talked about the importance of economic relations is being even more important than military competition and I think we're going to see that there are enormous opportunities in the Soviet Union for not only American companies, but American individuals retired Farmers for instance who can give their expertise to Soviet Farmers retired teachers or young People Peace Corps types are all kinds of of Good Neighbor policies that I think will result from this. Why is it important in your view for Gorbachev to come himself rather than just carrying on all these discussions at a different or lower level. I mean does it really make any difference if gorby sees a Minnesota cow? Well, I think the answer is that the this it's a symbolism of the top man coming here. I mean, it's you wouldn't have the kinds of enthusiasm and interest here that you have if anybody other than Gorbachev came, he is after all the most exciting and interesting and perhaps charismatic politician on the world stage today and it's an enormous compliment to Minnesota that he decided to come here. But it's as I said, it's like it's the biggest thing to happen in Minnesota since the last Glacier went through here about 10,000 years ago. That's a little bit of hyperbole Now, isn't it? Really? Well? I'm entitled to a little hyperbole. I guess you probably are we here that the Soviets have fallen behind on some of their payments for In sales and some joint ventures have been delayed getting off the ground. Does this Bode ill do you think for American companies trying to get into business with the Soviets? Well, I think it's it's an example. It demonstrates one of the most serious problems the Soviet have which is that they do not have much hard currency. The the ruble is not convertible. It's a very big problem for them. I have said many times that American companies that want to do business with the Soviets and in the Soviet Union should go into their eyes wide open and their hands on our wallet. It's a tough place to do business. The Soviets are tough negotiators as the arms control people can tell you it's there's a language barrier there. It's an expensive place to do business. There's very little infrastructure. They're difficult to even get a fax or a telephone call return there or from there. But by the same token, there are great opportunities there for four companies that take a long range approach and are willing to be patient. They're not going to make a profit. Tomorrow or next year it's going to take them a while. But there is a there is a very underdeveloped Market there of 285 million consumers who are who really need the most basic things that we take for granted. How do they pay for it? If they don't have hard currency and they don't have a convertible currency on how do we get the money for it? Well, what they've done up to now is arrays of kind of a barter system where they trade as ships or vodka or fers or caviar, whatever Goods that can be sold in the West for hard currency. I don't know they're going to have to resolve that problem. That's that's one of their major problems is that is that of paying for these things? They do the Soviets do have you know, they're a huge country with enormous natural resources natural oil and natural gas oil gold all the kinds of things that can be sold on the World Market, but getting it getting it to the point where you can sell it and exchange it for hard currency as a Public relations consultant allies Lee Who is credited with bringing Gorbachev Minnesota at least with extending the initial invitation to him. It is now one minute past four o'clock. This is member supported, Minnesota Public Radio. This is can o w Minneapolis-Saint Paul light rain 49 degrees in the Twin Cities at last report the wind gusting to 28.