MPR Special Live Coverage of Mikhail Gorbachev, president of the Soviet Union, making a one-day visit to Minnesota. Program contains various reports, interviews and commentary. This segment contains Gorbachev arriving at the Governor’s Mansion.
This is part two of eight programs.
Read the Text Transcription of the Audio.
(00:00:28) Live coverage of President Gorbachev historic visit to Minneapolis st. Paul Minnesota Public Radio providing that coverage throughout the afternoon and early evening today will stay with it. In fact until the Gorbachev plane leaves sometime around eight o'clock tonight. He goes on to San Francisco and from there back to the Soviet Union. I'd like to find out from our from our commentators hear what they think about, you know, what will reaction be in the Soviet Union to Gorbachev's entire trip the summit as well as this trip to Minnesota and later on, California Patty. Many people will probably be concerned with much more immediate things. They will be worried about the possibility that they may lose their job in the immediate future. They will probably be worried about getting some food for next week. And this visit will probably have little significance for them pay dearly. I have learned even Hazard you agree with that. (00:01:27) Well, the young high school student we heard from inbuilt in Duluth wasn't that far from The Mark? I think there is an element of Soviet society. That probably does see the Gorbachev trip as something that the president's doing when he ought to be tending to problems at home. There is still a strain of isolationism sort of Zena phobic elements of Soviet society that we've seen in the past. What's what's different today is that that strain of Soviet society that strain of Soviet political life is much less dominant than it has been in the past, but there's still you know your average worker. Peasant in the Soviet Union who thinks that we should look inwards put the food on the shelves and Gorbachev's not going to be able to do that by coming to the United States. He would be better off (00:02:26) staying home. One of the things I want to get to before we move on here from you folks Patti Dale and Evelyn David Heiser Patty from the from st. Olaf College and Evelyn from the University of Minnesota. Both our political scientists who specialize in the Soviet Union. We were talking just a few seconds before we went on the air about the fact there is a lot of pessimism in the United States about Gorbachev about the Soviet Union that they are teetering on the brink of disaster that Gorbachev is just about a dead horse and so on. What do you think about that Patty? And I think you identified correctly. It's too pessimistic. Yes, there is much political turmoil in the Soviet Union, but gorbachov is a very skillful politician and he is in a very secure institutional position. He's not in the same position that his predecessors were namely dependent upon the support and compliance of his colleagues in the politburo. He is in a constitutionally guaranteed position of President and will be in that position for another four years God which always like a man in a kayak going through Whitewater is a rough ride. Yeah, but he's a skillful boatsman and he is still in command at this point Patty Dale and Evelyn David Heiser our political commentators during this trip by President Gorbachev. Minnesota will be checking back with them in just a little bit why Minnesota is the question. Just by a lot of people when it was announced that Gorbachev would indeed come here State officials who helped arrange details of the visit have some insight on that cot. One is Richard board director of international trade for the Minnesota trade office. I spoke with him a little while ago and asked him to explain the Minnesota connection with the Soviet Union. I think bobbed are two reasons. The first is that he personally has intimate knowledge of the economics and the personalities of Minnesota. And so one of the things he wants to do is to pay his own personal respects to the people of a state that he believed as do many other Soviets stood by the Soviet Union a particularly during those very tough years of trade in the late 1970's and early 1980s during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan that occupation of course triggered a very serious American trade embargo against the Soviets and companies like Control Data hung in there with their Soviet colleagues. Also Bob the trading relationship which has developed over almost 30 years going back to 1963 with those as you will remember those early grain shipments from by Cargill and the early Activities of Control Data Honeywell and 3M those our trade relations have developed over the years and the day he arrives in Minnesota is the day that we will have no less than 50 Minnesota companies either selling to the Soviet Union or doing some form of joint venture across that entire economic spectrum from grain to medicine to computers that had that is so critical to mr. Gorbachev's modernization program. Now, what did you in the Minnesota trade office have to do with either bringing him here or helping to set his schedule while he's here. Well Bob, of course as the arm of state government that assist primarily medium and small sized businesses in the state to promote International Trade. We have been very active not only with our traditional markets but with Gets his well you and I have talked before about the significant trade relationship that has developed over the last 10 years with China and the Soviet Union also has been a major focus of the Minnesota trade office as we seek to get Minnesota companies into a market that is not as easy for them say as Canada. So we've had a lot of familiarity with the types of business. We've assisted a number of Minnesota companies and so it's been very natural for us to work on the trade and economic side of mr. Gorbachev is agenda and our charge Bob has been to make suggestions very early on about how to portray the rich diversity of Minnesota's economy to mr. Gorbachev and his colleagues. Why did he ultimately wind up not making a big public appearance as I know the governor had wanted and certainly a lot of people would have been interested in hearing how Give a speech on the steps of the capitol. For example. Oh, you're right many many. I mean we could have filled that Capitol Mall as you know with half a million people and they would have come out and they would have been waiting for days before I suspect but it seems to me that President Gorbachev recognizes that he runs a risk of getting too much praise too much adulation outside of the Soviet Union when the situation particularly the economic situation and the ethnic violence within the Soviet Union is causing so many of his citizens such dire problems. And so I think it's a question of balance. What do you think Gorbachev personal appearance in Minnesota will gain for him and for Minnesota that could not have been accomplished by contacts at lower levels of government and within business. I think that gets to the second reason Bob going back to your very first question about why Minnesota, I think President Gorbachev is coming to Minnesota not only to pay tribute to the old friends here in the state who have endured and and grown this trade relationship and the cultural and educational exchange over the last three decades, but also to Herald a new chapter. In that trading relationship and you know Bob for Minnesota, it could be an enormously beneficial relationship both from Minnesota and the Soviet Union one of the issues on the agenda in Washington DC. As you know is the trade question will the United States government push to extend most favored nation trade status to the Soviet Union, as you know, we've had a very constricted trade relationship with the Soviets particularly since the 1950s the tariffs on Soviet Imports into the United States are 10 times what they are for most other nations and so it's very difficult for the Soviets to export their goods into the United States to earn foreign exchange for those goods so that they can buy more things from States like Minnesota. So we hope that his coming to Minnesota endorses his Hope that Minnesota will have an increasingly important role to play in the Soviet economic modernization and that once federal policy allows most favored nation status to go through as the Cold War wanes and Export restrictions particularly on high technology from the United States go down. Minnesota will be able to export even more of what it exports best. And that is in the manufactured area primarily high technology, which is what the Soviets critically need Richard board director of international trade for the Minnesota trade office and we'll be hearing more from him a little bit later on in our broadcast live coverage of President Gorbachev visit to the Minneapolis st. Paul area here on Minnesota Public Radio this afternoon, let's go up to the state capital area briefly. Gary. Eichten is standing by on the mobile telephone up there. Hi, Gary. Hello, Bob. Well, what's it like last time we checked in with you about an hour ago there weren't very many people and it was awfully cold. (00:10:33) It's so cold. And there still aren't very many people. I was interested. Mr. Boris comments, you know that any given a speech here. He being mr. Gorbachev why the place would have been jammed for days in advance? It isn't jammed day yet. Although the crowd is starting to pick up interestingly enough if the voter keyed were to swing by here right now about all mr. Gorbachev would see would be people who are mad at him for some reason or other. Is that right? That's right. And or at least mad at the Soviet Union, there were a few people though. We talked to who came out specifically because they're concerned that the only people that Gorbachev will see are people who are unhappy about something. In fact, some of the first people here have been sitting here now for well since about 10 o'clock this morning and they said well gee were worried that you'll think everybody hates it so they came out there's a woman here from Greensboro North Carolina for Pete's (00:11:25) sake I'll be darned. How about that? Are they all dressed pretty warmly? I mean, I think you could almost wear a park out there (00:11:30) today. It's definitely Parker whether this reminds me a lot of the twins (00:11:33) parade. That's right. You are you were broadcasting up with the capital that day too and it was in it was beastly (00:11:39) cold. It was pretty chilly then but interestingly enough, it's just surprising to me that there aren't more people here. Now again, it is cold, but you know given the historic nature of it. It's surprising. (00:11:51) Well, it's also early in the schedule in terms of when that motorcade is supposed to swing by the Capital Area. I don't think they're you know under the old schedule. I don't think there is supposed to do that until about an hour from now at the earliest and they're you know, they're they're a good 15 20 minutes behind schedule as it is now, I would assume at some point Gary they're going to begin blocking that area off aren't they? (00:12:12) Well, they have all the streets blocked out. They do you can't drive around up here. And in fact, they kind of look at you suspiciously if you walk around on the streets, I'm Ron the capital but you can still still get around walking but but no driving and they're pretty much ready to go if the motorcade were to come by but of course as you say that's not going to happen for At least an hour hour-and-a-half. Yeah, (00:12:37) right. Okay, Gary will stay warm and check back with us. When you have something (00:12:41) having a great time Bob terrific by Gary (00:12:44) eichten at the state capitol waiting for that motorcade, which should be by there in an hour hour and a quarter something like that light rain and 48 degrees now in the Twin Cities with the wind gusting from the Northwest up to 37 miles per hour. Umbrellas won't do you much good today. You better wear a rain suit or something like that. If you're going to be outdoors the folks up at the governor's mansion on Summit Avenue across the street from it, Karen Barros and Catherine winter are standing by there on a porch and they are out of the rain. (00:13:14) Hello Bob. I'm on the porch Karen's out in the yard where she's got a little better vantage point and I have just collared our Hostess Diane Fulmer has been kind enough to let us take over a half of her porch and he's here with us now, and I mostly I wanted to ask him is former. Have you found this afternoon that you have a lot more friends than you thought you did? Well, we certainly have all our friends and relatives in one place. About 70 people going in and out off the porch and trying to get the best vantage point from a window or from a post in front of the house standing on the porch railing whatever we're all trying to catch a glimpse of mr. Gorbachev when he comes by have you become an overnight celebrity you and your husband had your door hammered down by media folks like us we've talked to a number of media, but that's an exciting part of it. We don't have a visitor like that very often. So we're all a part of of watching and telling people about it. What about living across from the governor's mansion. Do you get a lot of this kind of thing happening or this must be the biggest thing? This is definitely the largest event we've had here you see odd comings and goings over there. Well, we see comings and goings. Certainly there are occasions when the red carpet is rolled out. And so that's our clue in the neighborhood that there is something happening at the Its residents and now and again we see mr. And mrs. Perry put out for a walk. Well, we certainly feel like the red carpet has been rolled out for us here and we thank you for letting us use your porch and for being with us. It's a delight to have you I appreciate your coverage and I wish you the best great. Thank you. (00:14:50) Okay, Catherine. Thank you Catherine winter reporting live right across the street from the governor's mansion where President Gorbachev and the motorcade will be arriving within not too many minutes from now last report we had they were on about Interstate 94 and Snelling Avenue. So they probably going down styling of the merrion Street exit. I would suspect and hopping off and going up Seventh Avenue that way although I'm not sure I'm just guessing that's what I'd do. Let's check in with Chris Roberts who is in the crowd somewhere along Summit Avenue on these cellular telephone. Hi, Chris. (00:15:23) Hello, Bob. Actually, I'm not in a crowd. I'm in a hedge right now. I'm trying to block the wind so that you can hear me. Okay, it's really blustery out here. The weather's been bad as we've been saying all along but We're really starting to gather now. It's a colorful Entourage of folks lined up on someone Avenue. I'm near Chatsworth and Summit which is about a half block away from the governor's mansion and we see people coming down from Summit coming. I guess it would be Westward from Summit and I would imagine that there's some spillover from Grand Old Days. (00:15:58) Well Chris I was going to ask you about that. Have you been over one block to Grand Avenue house the turnout for grandal (00:16:03) day. I definitely turnout is down compared to the previous years but a surprising amount of people showed up and a lot of them said that the weather was too bad and they weren't going to venture over block they were going to get home but the weather was a lot worse back then there's no rain now, it's just windy and I think a lot of people are coming over. (00:16:23) All right. And as far as you can tell now Gary was saying that there are a number of people there who appear to be protesting something about the Gorbachev (00:16:33) here on one end of the governor's mansion. There is a group of Muslim Students from the University of Minnesota across the street from them. There are people representing the Baltic states and I think I hear cheers of somebody's coming along and across the street from me right now. We have the first Bus full of police coming here and they're getting a lot of cheers for some reason but across the street from me right now the Laotian in Cambodia Cambodia and group that Gary was referring to have made it all the way up here. They walk from the capital all the way up there and they have their signs out and actually it's kind of funny right now. Not too far away from me is a gentleman leaning against a tree on stilts. He is dressed as Uncle Sam and he is carrying a Soviet flag with sickle and Hammer. So he's getting a few tears as (00:17:25) well. Okay, very good. Chris Roberts who is along Summit Avenue there as the as the motorcade is getting definitely getting in range of the governor's mansion commentators Patty Dale and Evelyn David Heiser Evelyn all these these people who are protesting the Gorbachev trip in one way or another how well represented are they in the Soviet Union that is how much of this protest is legitimate. (00:17:50) Well, certainly the movement for Independence in the Baltic republics is is a real issue in the Soviet Union. All right now, although what is it? I understand that that we've got more Estonian and Latvian zout today and fewer lithuanians, which is is probably the opposite of the picture in the Soviet Union Lithuania has gone much further on the in the move toward Independence then either any of the other (00:18:19) two. It's a (00:18:21) much more homogeneous population. (00:18:23) Relation, uh-huh Ellen, David Heiser. Let's go back to Catherine winter on the porch at Summit Avenue. And apparently the motorcade is just about pulling up. Is that right? Kathy? It (00:18:34) certainly looks like it Tom two loads of police cars and now is a bunch of other there were two busloads of police officers I should say and now the motorcade appears to be pulling in I believe reporter Karen borrows who's out on the lawn here with a microphone has a slightly better Vantage Point Karen. What can you see from there? Well, I can see at least one of the Soviet automobiles here the first one to arrive a carload of what appeared to be secret service people pulled up and despatched about six people who ran back toward the gate. The Bell ringers are lined up. The helicopters are circling. I think we're (00:19:05) close is it appears to me from the live video feed that we are getting that Gorbachev actually got out of his limousine shortly before it would have been ready to pull up to the governor's mansion there and and probably stepped out and shook a few hands. (00:19:21) Yeah. That's our yeah. There's a bunch of Secret Service people are running on the corner. I think it's Oxford and Summit up there. I think that and that's where a group of protesters were assembled up there along with the group, you know of group of normal Twin Cities folks if there is such a thing is and I can see a crowd down there. Now the Secret Service took off down there Bob with their ties flying at a run. So it seems as though something unexpected must have (00:19:47) happened only that most likely is that the Gorbachev got out of the got out of the motorcade. I wonder Evelyn (00:19:55) is he when he does that (00:19:56) sort of thing. It does he have a translator with him so that people can understand him or does he just shake their hand and you know, I think anybody can figure out if a guy is saying well, hi. How are you nice to be here doesn't matter what language that is really (00:20:14) lost in the shuffle. He does have his trusty interpreter who's with him on all these visits to the United States and We also see when Baker Bush Meats gorbachov outside of the United States. If you notice the man always close by Gorbachev bald on top like Gorbachev with a mustache a younger (00:20:39) man. Yeah, actually interpret That's The Interpreter (00:20:42) does Gorbachev have an English. Not really. I mean, he knows a word now and then he's been known to say hello (00:20:50) because I know that there are some of these world leaders who actually do speak quite good English but declined to do so because they figure well, they're kind of in a formal circumstance and they and their better to stick with the with interpretation. (00:21:01) Yeah Gorbachev is not an English speaker Bob if we can break in at this point indeed Katherine, it looks as though the limousine is pulling up the Bell ringers have started playing their Bells from here Karen. What can you see from down there? I can see the limo and there's a crowd of Secret Service Thai people are are are I can say I see a limo Down there in did you say the Bell ringers are doing what they do. The limo limousine is pulling up right now at the front walking gait of the capitalism as opposed to the driveway gate, but we don't know if you can hear these bells but what you have is a long row of people in white blouses and black trousers or skirts playing large golden Bells. Rhythmically, it's actually very pretty and the limo is very slowly sliding into place here and that appears to be Governor purpose walking there. Yeah, Governor perfect is (00:21:59) it's a large motorcade. I know from what Stephen Smith was saying earlier that there about 40 vehicles in the motorcade all together with of course, the the governor and Gorbachev and his wife in the in the first of the vehicles, but there are an awful lot of vehicles in the motorcade and so it may take some time for all of them to get in place there and well in (00:22:20) there's quite a lot of activity a lot. People now running down the sidewalk here who have who are up at the corner either end of the street huge crowds of people pressing against what looks like snow fence. Huh? Very colorful pack is a crowd moaning cameras. Not anymore. It's now it's double duty Cyclone (00:22:41) who's actually going to be having this meal (00:22:43) with so it's an enormous guest list. I think the governor and Lola pervert or walking through the gates right now Lola perpich wearing a yellow suit for what it's worth writing down the street from houses to get a look at there's a large crowd of people coming through and I think television cameras. These must be the Press pool people know I think this in the middle of that might be Gorbachev because when television photographers hold their cameras up in the air at arm's length, they only do it when something or someone is coming to take a picture of right those things are heavy. It is a thick Crown Bob. It's not a not a tidy line of people. It's a thick clump. Sure of people going through the gate at the governor's mansion which has been done up with festoons of greenery and there is some red carpet which can't see anymore because there's all kinds of people on (00:23:31) it. They're trying to make it look spring like even though the weather is anything but I see a number of people dressed in Slickers out there as they await the (00:23:40) arrival there been a lot of people here in Slickers for a long time standing up on their risers here getting rained on it is not really raining right now, but still blustery cold and very (00:23:50) cloudy you're talking a little I was asking you just a little bit about the guest list for lunch (00:23:54) Karen. Do you know something about the who was on that list? I don't think they have released a list of luncheon guest as I understand it the luncheon guest were not all finalized up in until the very end. We might find out after the luncheon who got to sit at the governor and the governor's table here. We did receive a press release about the luncheon and it did not include the names of those invited. It just been included what they're going to eat and it talked a little about idolaters and right China patterns from Dayton's and Crystal from day. How many's a large crowd of people headed in the front (00:24:25) door and I see Gorbachev there? Yes ready on the television feed I see him going in (00:24:31) how many people can they (00:24:32) serve in the in the governor's residence (00:24:34) the governor's table in the dining room seats 18 people and I think they were talking about an additional 30 maybe 50 55 to 60 total who will be dining here Gorbachev is just waved and now he's turning to go inside. I believe as you know, where across the street it's not it's not a terrific manage point. It's certainly better than a lot of people have we are about we're across to Lawns and on the other side of the street standing on a porch. So (00:25:05) I want to ask Patty Dale about those those limousines that we're seeing there. They're quite some vehicle aren't they? They must be the most represent one of the rarest Motor Vehicles in the world. It's my understanding that they are handmade and only Five are made. Yeah that makes them much more rather than say a Rolls-Royce. They are very very heavy as you mentioned earlier. Yes, they must get a very low gas mileage and they are they use is confined to members of the Soviet politburo not even the heads of Industry get to use them as that. Right, right because there is a second level icicle the chaika is and so members of the Central Committee and what would the ordinary Soviet citizen drive if in fact he or she is lucky enough to have a (00:26:00) car (00:26:00) there's those you Glee which is a fit 124 a built in togliatti grad in a factory made by the the Fiat company in the late 1960s that factory has never been retooled even though fiat's own plants. In Northern Italy have been retooled at least five times. So they're basically turning out a late 1960s vehicle in night with 1960s equipment. And this is a good illustration of the problem of Soviet industry that recapitalisation and technological innovation have both been neglected. And what would a Soviet worker pay for a vehicle like that in terms of the number of weeks or months, it would take him to earn the amount of money to buy the car. My memory is saying to me eighteen thousand rubles for a new she goalie, but I will stand correction. But if you have to put that money up front and then you have to wait perhaps 12 or 18 months before you obtain delivery. So no buying on credit and no special orders from the factory and did not (00:27:18) but if you think about the situation for consumer In the Soviet Union what seems like a very high figure in terms of how long a worker has to work to save the money for a car. It is indeed a long time. But the savings is not a terrible burden on the worker and his family because consumer goods are in such scarce Supply that there really isn't anything that he's dying to go spend the money on in the meantime, so that money piles up without without trouble and the old joke about buying a car in the Soviet Union went worker goes to the car manufacturing says, you know, I want the car. Okay Conrad you can have it in two years and such a day in the worker says shall I pick it up in the morning or the afternoon? And the guy says why does it matter the plumbers coming in the morning? So this is this is very (00:28:17) right typical of yes, and I agree with evil and you know we Also need to point out that to date Soviet citizens have had to pay very little for the necessities of life rent and food. Now this is going to change under perestroika. In fact ever the prices of a lot of God's doubled food is doubled and yeah the things but when you consider that that the price of some Commodities even doubled is still very cheap. So a loaf the regular price for a loaf of bread used to be 15 kopecks that depending upon what exchange rate you use it. It's a rat it's somewhere between five ten cents. You can ride anywhere in Moscow for five kopecks. That's it's perhaps a penny and Soviet citizens are now very concerned about these subsidies being withdrawn because they used to them and because they cannot Not readily and visit what it's going to be like to have to pay market prices isn't there also a concern among the the Soviet workers that the job that they have is necessarily going to be guaranteed to him anymore. (00:29:37) That's that's been a big problem part of the whole Brezhnev era was to provide the worker with a great deal of security. If you marketize the economy, if you try to encourage a fin efficiency for Enterprises by allowing Enterprises to go out of business, you're allowing Enterprises to lay off fire. What have you the workers? Not only is it a matter of guaranteeing workers jobs in many cases. It's a matter of guaranteeing workers the job that they have housing often comes along with a job housing is built by the Enterprise and for This is the larger factories. So this is this is extremely (00:30:30) problematic for the for the workers. There hasn't been (00:30:34) a very strong social welfare. Net in the Soviet Union on the one hand prices have been very low subsidized housing is guaranteed for what it's worth. It costs only a tenth of one's income, but there haven't been very good means for paying unemployment benefits for retraining (00:30:55) workers commentator is evident David Heiser from the University of Minnesota a political scientist. And Patty Dale was political scientist at st. Olaf College and director of Soviet studies there you're listening to live coverage of president Mikhail Gorbachev visit to the Twin Cities our coverage made possible by the international public relations consulting firm of Padilla spear Beardsley President Gorbachev and his Entourage are now at the governor's mansion on Summit Avenue and st. Paul presumably sitting down to a Our elegant lunch which reporter Kathryn winter described to us a little while ago a lot of things that certainly are beyond my capacity to pronounce but let's go back out there to Summit Avenue and see what's going on (00:31:34) Catherine. Well actually bothers pretty big protest going on directly in front of the governor's mansion. Karen borrows has pulled aside one of the people demonstrating and is with him now out on the front lawn of the Mansion where we're staying Katherine Gorge, Jace is with me along with his flag of Lithuania. And I guess my question to you is what what do you want to Gorbachev to walk away from this with Ian like Gorge Gorbachev to know (00:31:59) there are a lot of Lithuanian and Baltic State people here asking him to recognize their quest for Independence (00:32:07) what you know, Governor purpose has said that he will not press this issue when he meets with Gorbachev. Do you think that's a mistake on purpose is (00:32:16) part o obviously, you know, that's an issue everybody skirting Bush it squirted it apparently had camped. Also along with the German unified Nation. I mean, let's talk about let's get it out. We've got to have that issue are we got to get it resolved? (00:32:32) Logistically. What did you guys have to do to get your flags in here and yourselves in here? This one? This must not have been an easy task. Well, there wasn't really all that difficult. I think the weather had a lot to play with it, (00:32:43) but we just parked two blocks away came over. We've had some meetings. We've had two or three weeks in meetings and we've got about 500 people here and they're all with their flags and with their placards. (00:32:53) Okay would tell me about some of the other flags. I see a yellow and blue flag and maroon and white flag, which flags are (00:33:01) those. Okay. There's three are Nora rather for nationalities. There's a latvians the estonians lithuanians and ukrainians have a large contingent also. (00:33:11) Okay, and I think the Afghan he's our up on the corner also (00:33:14) the Afghan, he's our vocal. We are making our message by our flags in our IR respect for the flag. (00:33:22) What are you going to do when he comes out? Well, actually, I'm heading on my way to the Capitol right (00:33:27) now. I think that's sort of place where get some visibility. Once again. (00:33:32) Okay. Well, thank you very much. Thank you for coming up here on the yard in the yard and chatting with us Catherine. Okay. Thanks Karen. Right now. There are more people than I had expected would be able to get onto this street which has been cordoned off. The sidewalk in front is thronged with people. Some of them have signs. There's a sign in front of me the Soviet Union and idea whose time has gone. Most of the people who are going to the luncheon appear to have filtered into the Governor's Mansion at this point and there are not many still out on the governor's lawn. So the people who are Milling around here are primarily people either who live in the area who have managed to get onto the street anyway, so right now everybody's inside the Mansion as near as we can tell. (00:34:13) All right Catherine. I wonder if Senator boschwitz might be hanging around out there somewhere and if you happen to run into him while you might you might get a chance to visit with him for a little bit, too. (00:34:22) I should explain Bob that because of where we are situated in order to get up onto the porch of this Mansion. We had to leave the cordoned-off area and we're not permitted to re-enter it. So we will try and get a hold of people but our chances became very dim once we came up (00:34:36) here. Okay, very good. Thanks a lot Catherine Catherine winter reporting from the governor's from across the street at the governor's mansion where they should be sitting down to that that rather Dynamic luncheon here in just a couple of seconds crystalline is in Downtown Minneapolis on a cellular telephone across the street from the Radisson Plaza Hotel. What's going on down there now Chris. (00:34:58) Well Bob, they've actually moved me around the corner the police have sealed off the block right around the hotel very tight and get kind of surly. If you get very close to it at all on a lot of cars are starting to arrive Jaguars BMWs a few limousines. They move by quickly enough that I am not sure who it is, but they are important folks arriving for the business meeting already as though they're the only vehicles that are moving down the street. The hotel some folks Spectators are beginning to gather although unlike the scene in St. Paul so far. There's nobody here who looks anything but happy at the prospect of seeing. Mr. Gorbachev. No, no protesters yet. But on Intrepid people already begin to gather inside out how many apples (00:35:38) any indication that some of those Business Leaders who are going to meet with Gorbachev has begun to show up yet. (00:35:43) Yeah. That's what I want. My guess is that's what all those of all of the the long big cars that are moving in moving down the block to the hotel are there are some folks getting out of those cars there a block away as as close as anyone like me can get but I'm sure that's the they're the only folks the Secret Service people are letting (00:36:00) boss. Well, I doubt that Roger Smith will be arriving in as ill. I have a feeling he'll be driving something else. I think it's a good. All right. Thanks Chris. Crystalline. Who's down at Minneapolis Radisson Plaza Hotel the meeting with the Business Leaders gets underway a bit later apparently according to the earlier schedule sometime around all five o'clock or thereabouts. It's our understanding that that is going to be available for I have broadcast and if it is we certainly will bring that to you Minnesota Public Radio canceling its regularly scheduled programming this afternoon, so we can broadcast live the historic trip by president Mikhail Gorbachev to the Minneapolis st. Paul area lunch at the governor's Ranch Misha mansion, that is the item of business right now following that a motorcade to her down Summit Avenue and around the Capital Area then to downtown Minneapolis the meeting with the Business Leaders, they move on from there later this evening to the farm in Farmington, Minnesota then back up to Control Data headquarters in Bloomington at around 7:30 and then departing by airport for San Francisco at around 8 o'clock or a little thereafter any visit by a head of state obviously attracts quite a gaggle of groupies, press and other hangers-on now John Chancellor fits only one of those categories. He is a member of the press but it isn't only President Gorbachev visit, which attracted John Chancellor's Chancellor is on a book tour which happened to bring him through Minnesota just as Gorbachev came as well. So I used the opportunity to talk with television commentator and Veteran journalist. John chancellor who offered a brand new Theory as to why Gorbachev is visiting today. Well when I'm fascinated by the schedule and I hope they they've changed it a little bit while he's here when I heard that he was coming to Minneapolis. I said now why Minneapolis and st. Paul and I thought aha, I know it's the skyways I've lived in Russia for two years and I lived in there for for two Russian Winters in Moscow and they are very comparable to the winters you have here in the Twin Cities, but Minneapolis and st. Paul have learned how to cope with those Winters better. It seems to me than any snow belt city in the world. Therefore I said smart old gorby is coming here to have a look at the skyways and at those Atria you have with the trees growing in them and end this wonderful and I think unique contribution that that that Minneapolis is made to snowbelt architecture and there are a lot of cities in the Soviet Union that would benefit from these relatively inexpensive. They're imaginative. They're not expensive. Well, if he doesn't get into a Skyway, I think he's missing the best part of the trip. Well, he's going to be meeting with a number of Business Leaders in agriculture leaders in an effort to do something about his economy, which is really in bad shape. What do you think the prospects are over there? I don't think I think we are truly in a situation where no one knows it that weather where the economist at the KGB do not really know. I get a sense of Free Fall not just in the economic indicators, but in their in their understanding of what the next political development maybe and I think that you've got to keep your eye on Boris Yeltsin in the as we call it the rsfsr the Russian Soviet federative. Rated socialist republic the Russian Republic. He is already challenging the central Authority and some fascinating ways. One of which was his demand that Republic law in the Russian Republic take precedence over Soviet law in domestic matters civil suits things like that. I don't know where they're going. My guess is that Gorbachev doesn't know where they're going shevardnadze yakovlev. All of that crowd do not know where they're going. I thought they were pretty well put together for the first four years. Say your three years of perestroika and glasnost and then we we realized we got very little perestroika restructuring an enormous amount of glass know'st openness. I think more glass nose than they could be comfortable with myself and yet not an end of and the Panic buying in the stores and all of that. So I don't I used to say 50/50 on Gorbachev's chances. Now think you ought to amend that if you're thinking about it to say simply nobody knows. Hmm. What about us relations with the Soviet Union? How do you see those changing over the next 10 years or so? Well, the I think we have to solve the problem of Germany before we can solve we can get the problem of soviet-american relations in place. Remember it's only about 350 miles across Poland from the Western German border to the right of the West to Eastern German border to the West part of the Soviet Union. They think that's really pretty close. They remember the war more than we remember the war. They took far heavier hit in the second world war than we did. And so I must say I have a lot of sympathy for Russians who say we've got to make sure that the that the Germans don't come again and that's after all why they set up the buffer States in Eastern Europe. So that what they're arguing now it seems to me is for some big vague kind of Europe in which Weston above a United Germany would be a big vague kind of part and I don't think that's going to fly and but yet I also share Gorbachev's apprehension of having to go Was own people who may someday be actual voters and say Germany is going to stay in NATO because they think NATO is aimed at them. And so we've got a lot of sorting out to do on that. Do you think the cold war per se is finished with? Yeah, I think the Cold War I don't think you can get that toothpaste back in the tube and one of the great reasons I think is glass no stand and I don't end and the fact is that I think the polls and the checks and the hungarians and the East Germans would probably fight to the last person if they've Soviet Army tried to ride to become the hegemonic power there again, so I don't think you got a new Eastern Europe and I think you have a new Soviet Union and therefore what we're going to have to do I think in this country is Taylor our defense spending to the needs of the 1990s and Beyond which are low intensity conflicts in other parts of the world and I think We need to retool I'm not sure we need all the battleships. I do know that I don't think we should worry as much as we used to worry about tank armies rolling across the north German plane. I'd worry about the Middle East now more than I would have bought the north German plane. What do we do about the nuclear threat not from the Soviet Union, but from Renegade states that could somehow develop the technology and use it if they wanted our don't really know Bob what you do about that. I don't think that the Strategic Defense Initiative is isn't is likely to Be an Effective shield on that. Let's take let's take Colonel X in country y Who develops a missile that could hit the United States and suddenly we find that Colonel X has can put a nuclear warhead on it and everybody runs around the United States saying the sky is falling. Why don't we have the Strategic Defense Shield over the United States so that this buccaneer Land a nuclear weapon on the White House. Well, the fact is that nuclear weapons can be fit into the trunk of a folks wagon. And if Colonel acts really wants to be a threat to the United States SDI isn't going to keep him out. He can bring that stuff in here in his in. We you know, we import I don't know how many tons of drugs every day in this country really determined terrorists would get a nuclear weapon right here in the Twin Cities if they wanted to in a suitcase. So I think we have we are going to live in that connection in an increasingly dangerous world one final question for you. John Chancellor. What do you see as the prospects for trade between the United States and the Soviet Union specifically between trade with this part of the United States in the Minnesota the Upper Midwest area. I think you're still going to have large grain sales to them. I think they we all would like to see their their agriculture improve. I mean, I think because the agricultural the problems they have destabilizes that country and we're going to I have to go through a period where what you have now, I think is you've got the Soviet Union that is a country that is flat broke. But heavily armed. It's the second or the leading nuclear power in the world. I think it's second and it doesn't have any money and that's a that's a dangerous combination. It seems to me and so that I think you will still as they restructure the economy. You will still have grain sales to the Soviet Union. I would hope someday to see them and I think Minnesota Farmers ought to think about this in the upper middle west ought to think about this that if they work it right, they will not need large amounts of American grain. We're going to have to find other markets for it and we're going to have to say to ourselves in a practical way. That's the best outcome. The the worst outcome would be to perpetuate what we have now in this flat broke heavily armed Soviet Union, and I'm sure it's nice to sell the grain, but I'd much Rather have a Russia more or less on its feet than one tottering around with hands full of nuclear weapons John chancellor who is in the Twin Cities promoting his new book called parallel and promise. Thanks John. Thank you Bob 12 minutes. Now before three o'clock our live coverage of President Gorbachev visited the Twin Cities area continues. He and Governor perpich are at the governor's residence on Summit Avenue right now presumably they have begun and are working their way through a multi-course luncheon. I would suspect that. The Gorbachev party is rather happy to have that lunch since they arrived late and lost in our rather gained an hour when they moved from the Eastern into the central time zone the reporters Catherine winter and Karen Barros are across the street from the governor's mansion on Summit Avenue. They've been chatting with a number of people who have stopped by Catherine. What do you have (00:46:31) there? Well, Bob a couple of things most of the people in suits Important people in suits have gone inside the buildings now as we mentioned before but apparently what has happened on either end of this street is that the Cyclone Fence has come down and so on this side of the street the opposite side from the governor's mansion. There are about a zillion people on the sidewalk and crowding up onto people's Lawns. Some of them have even brought chairs with them and are sitting in them reporter Karen Burrows who's in the front yard of the mansion from which were broadcasting and she has with her someone who was apparently in the crowd when President Gorbachev stop his limousine. Is that right Karen that is right Dane Richter of Minneapolis got here at 11:30 this morning because he wanted to be able to have a chance to see Gorbachev and I guess you were up on that corner at Oxford and Summit what happened? Well, I someone had spread a rumor that he had gotten out of the car on Lexington earlier and all of a sudden I look around and there was a large group of protesters on the other side of the street and they had been chanting for most of the morning and I looked around and there was Gorbachev and he went directly up to the protesters the group and he started shaking hands with And then he walked down someone up for a little while and and on the side of the street. I was standing he walked over to the side I was standing on and and he waved to the crowd from there and he continued on his way so that he arrived at the governor's mansion on foot. Do you think yes, he arrived on foot. He walked the two blocks of summit just walked into while everyone else wrote in their cars. What what was the crowd doing at that point where you were? Well, there was a barricade there was a small it was a barricade up for where some reporters were standing and when Gorbachev started walking down the street they started to crowd the fence. So no one could see so that the barricade was that was brought down and and the people just walked up behind the reporters and watch Gorbachev walk at the same time. What did the protesters do when he walked up to them? They turned silent and and they couldn't hear them. I Hear them chanting anymore. I don't know if Gorbachev spoke to them or but I could see that he was shaking hands with them with with a his normal security people around his around him. But he shook he shook hands. Then he walked down somewhat towards the governor's mansion. So you got your wish you got here earlier and you got to see what you came to see. What do you do now? Well, I probably just stay around here and see what's going to happen next and and maybe see if he if there's another chance that he'll be coming down the street again. Okay. Thank you. That is Dane Richter of Minneapolis who got here early got a good seat and got to see what he came to see Katherine. Another thing that we've talked a little bit about the menu. One of the items on the menu is veal and the veal protesters are here. Now. How are you holding up holding up a sign in protest of the use of v on the menu (00:49:31) say I'd like to know that I understand the walleye is one of the items on the menu (00:49:34) there. That's right. Tape it's a pecan breaded walleye the menu features a Minnesota Specialties. And of course while I would be one of them. Yeah, but now wait a minute here while I protesters. Well, no not while I (00:49:45) protesters but you know while I that would have to be a while I caught by a client by a recreational fishermen because there's no commercial walleye fishing in Minnesota. Is (00:49:53) there isn't that interesting, you know, I have no idea where the wall I came from perhaps it came from spear (00:49:57) Fisher's I wasn't the other thing it would be would be a frozen Canadian walleye. (00:50:00) Well, the my prediction early on was that they would serve some of the fish from the orbits in Chisholm, you know, giving the governor a chance to boost his hometown area, but sure those death or fish or pit fish apparently lost out to the to the to the walleye. (00:50:17) I've been told now authoritatively that it is a red Lake Indian Reservation walleye so that interest there. We are that that's where the commercial fishing is done. That's right Red Lake. It's about the only place I think that's that can be done not in the state of Minnesota. All right. Ladies. Thank you much Catherine winter and Karen Boris across the Feet from the governor's residence where the luncheon is. Now taking place Evelyn David Heiser. I was interested in the fact that Gorbachev got out of his limousine and talk to the protesters. (00:50:45) It's classic Gorbachev. Try the sugar first. He I mean certainly these protesters aren't a thorn and Gorbachev side. I mean if he if he wants thorny Baltic protesters, he's got them at home. And so why not try a little travel miss (00:51:06) little positive persuasion there Patty Dale. Do you think that that this is that these these apparently spontaneous stops by him are really spontaneous or are they planned up pretty carefully in advance presumably the location of the stop is not planned in advance, but it's part of his public relations routine God which of has very definitely cultivated. A cult of personality with Western public opinion and is acting to maintain that how does he play in his own country? He was immensely popular to begin with probably a little less. So now do these are the Soviet people tiring of these little stunts of his so to speak. Yes, they are the Soviet many Soviet people want to know was the beef and you know, where's the food on the table? But I would draw our attention to a recent public opinion survey published by the Soviet Journal again York. This is a popular satirical magazine 25 percent said that they were worse off fifty percent said they felt about the same 25 percent said they felt better off. So what is happening in the Soviet Union is that social inequality is increasing there are winners and there are losers and the winners are essentially the young the better educated and those able to contribute to a technical and consumer Revolution. The losers are the older more information the less well-educated and in that sense perestroika can be compared with ISM in factor, is mm-hmm. Patty Dale who is a political scientist from st. Olaf College in Northfield Minnesota one of our commentators Evelyn David Heiser from the University of Minnesota. Also political scientist is with us to the rise of Boris yeltsin's political fortunes this week with his election as president of the Russian Republic has captured just about as much media attention as Gorbachev s visit to the United States Boris. Yeltsin has announced that he's willing to strike some agreements with other Republic's including the the way Nia. There is a perception that Yeltsin is a threat to the political future of Gorbachev for some illumination of that topic. I spoke with Arena. So let's OVA a reporter and editor for Radio Moscow. (00:53:38) Tell me what he is the the two people have absolutely different obligations. They have in a sense even different duties. Although Yeltsin is now set for presidency of the Russian Federation and mr. Gorbachev. Of course being the president of the entire country. They Boy by virtue of their positions. They are supposed to pursue different interests because mr. Gorbachev, I think is of course interested in consolidating the country, which is the biggest probably the toughest task for him right now. Now what mr. Yeltsin is trying to do he is thinking in more limited terms about the future of Just One Republic of the Russian Federation that is a republic big enough to to worry anyone. I mean with the with over half of the territory of the Soviet Union under over half of its population but to tell you Frankly, I don't think that what mr. Yeltsin or mr. Vaughn's Burgas is going to do in the next few months is going to be again looked upon as a conflict between these people and mr. Gorbachev. It's rather a problem as the solution of the crisis of the many crisis. This country is going through so if mr. Yeltsin, Is going to abide by the rules meaning by the Constitution by the given by the unwritten rules. I think the crisis will be resolved eventually if he is going to take a tougher stand like mr. Lundberg is who has violated the Constitution repeatedly, I don't think it's going to be constructive. So either of the two for either Mister Yeltsin are mr. Gorbachev is a matter of consolidation. Now who has and one more thing is that mr. Hill someone who is get a wide with received as a he's met with a very very mixed response here to say that he enjoys the overwhelming popularity of the Russian people's probably to to say wrong thing. He's an erratic populist, you know, flamboyant critics who has closed his political Korea and hose much if you stop your Verity to his radical Stan and his criticism when he was an opposition and he has spent so many years in opposition, but some people think you know, he really belongs in the opposition and and maybe he should have been kept in the opposition now that he takes in charge the biggest Republic of the Soviet Union. He's going to play a constructive role at least that's what he's supposed to do. And that is a totally different story. Although he of course, he enjoys the popularity among a considerable part of the people here. And right now he has a quite a strong. He is believed to have quite a strong team behind him team of the economist's of politicians who are backing him up and it is they help this team and not so much. Mr. Yeltsin is going to bring through the reform to carry you through it. In the Russian Federation, hopefully, so I think yes, he is. Sometimes thought of as a man who has who probably should have remained in the opposition but on the other hand he is perceived as an honest man, you know, and and if this can in this country, if you know, this is a very very important quality he is perceived as an honest man a man of integrity who can you know, look people in the eye and tell them the truth and this is something that this country has been liking for four decades, you know, so he probably his popularity is also due to his personal characteristic (00:57:48) Arena solid silver who is a reporter and editor for radio moscow's North American Service and I spoke with her in Moscow by telephone yesterday morning. I believe it was our live coverage of President Gorbachev visit to the Twin Cities is Possible by the international public relations consulting firm of Padilla Speer Beardsley three o'clock is the time and this is member supported, Minnesota Public Radio. This is klow Minneapolis st. Paul in the Twin Cities light rain 48 degrees the wind gusting to 37 miles per hour. Broadcasting Live President Gorbachev strip to the Twin Cities today on Minnesota Public Radio. We have canceled our regularly scheduled programming so that we can bring you live coverage of this historic event.