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KATE: And good morning, Mr. Eichten.

GARY EICHTEN: Good morning, Kate. Today on Midday, a couple of Minnesota congressmen will be joining us in studio. Last year at this time, Minnesota's three new members of Congress came into the studio to talk about their expectations for their first year. Well, today, two Congressman, Keith Ellison and Tim Walz, will be joining us to talk about how their expectations met with reality. Then, over the noon hour, Minnesota author Bill Holm.

LAKSHMI SINGH: From NPR News in Washington, I'm Lakshmi Singh. President Bush maintains he didn't know anything about CIA tapes that showed terror suspects being interrogated, or that those tapes were destroyed, until he was briefed by the CIA's chief earlier this month. In an end of year news conference today, the President declined to offer details, while several investigations are pending.

PRESIDENT BUSH: Over the course of these inquiries and oversight hearings, I'm going to reserve judgment until I find out the full facts.

LAKSHMI SINGH: The CIA says the tapes, dated 2002, were destroyed three years later for security reasons. Now, faced with a subpoena threat from Congress, the CIA is turning over materials related to the destroyed videotapes. The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee says he may subpoena former and current CIA officials and attorneys if they refuse to comply.

Doctors who specialize in treating patients in the hospital do as well or better than those patients regular physicians, according to a new study. NPR's Julie Rovner reports.

JULIE ROVNER: Hospitalists are mostly general internists who work directly for a hospital and take over for patient's primary care physicians when those patients are hospitalized. Their numbers have ballooned in recent years. The advantage is that the hospitalists are present in the hospital and know how to make things work. The disadvantage is they don't know the patients personally or their medical history.

Now, a study in this week's New England Journal of Medicine finds that patients cared for by hospitalists, not only did as well medically as patients cared for by their own physicians, but the patients cared for by hospitalists had slightly shorter hospital stays that cost slightly less. The study is expected to give a boost to the hospitalist movement. Julie Rovner, NPR News.

LAKSHMI SINGH: South Africa's top prosecutor says he believes he has enough evidence to charge Jacob Zuma with corruption. Zuma was elected leader of the governing African National Congress party Tuesday, putting him on track to become the country's next president. NPR's Ofeibea Quist-Arcton has more.

OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Jacob Zuma has been expecting these renewed corruption charges and said last week he would fight them.

JACOB ZUMA: Allegations don't mean the man is guilty. The day if I'm taken to court and the judge says, Zuma, we find you guilty. As I walk out of court, I will say to the ANC, I'm stepping down.

OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: South Africa's leading prosecutor, Mokotedi Mpshe, told the Associated Press that officials would announce in the new year the next step in the investigation into allegations against Zuma. An earlier fraud and bribery case linked to a multi-million dollar arms scandal collapsed on a technicality in 2005. Zuma, who was fired as deputy president, faced charges of accepting inducements of nearly $600,000. Ofeibea Quist-Arcton, NPR News, Dakar.

LAKSHMI SINGH: On Wall Street, the Dow is down about 32 points at 13,175, and the NASDAQ is up 8 points at 2609. This is NPR News.

SPEAKER 1: Support for news comes from the Annie E. Casey Foundation, promoting lifelong family connections for children and youth in foster care. On the web at aecf.org.

PERRY FINELLI: From Minnesota Public Radio News, I'm Perry Finelli. A citizens group is going to court to try to block Minneapolis from trying an instant runoff voting system in its 2009 elections. Attorney Erick Kaardal says the Minnesota Voters Alliance and several citizens are filing the lawsuit. In instant runoff voting, people rank their choices for each office. It would eliminate primary elections. Kaardal points to an attorney general's opinion, he says, raises questions about whether the system is constitutional. He says the lawsuit will name the city attorney general and Secretary of State.

A 22-year-old Saint Cloud woman was arrested for suspected drunk driving early today after her vehicle hit a police squad car stopped while officers questioned another driver suspected of DWI. Saint Cloud Police were conducting a DWI investigation shortly after 2:00 AM when the Park Police squad car was hit and the driver fled the scene. Police gave chase and arrested the woman after her vehicle got stuck in a snowbank. Police say two other women in the car also were arrested after fleeing police on foot.

A report says nearly a quarter of Minnesotans under 65 are in families that will spend more than 10% of their pretax income on health care costs next year. The health care consumer organization says that's more than a million people. Families USA health policy analyst Kim Bailey says the report also looked at the number of people and families spending more than 25% of their income on health care.

KIM BAILEY: We found that in 2008, 276,000 Minnesotans will be in families that are spending more than a quarter of their income on health care costs. Nearly 9 out of 10 of these people have insurance.

PERRY FINELLI: Bailey says compared to other states, Minnesota's out of pocket health care spending is slightly higher than average. Right now the Twin Cities sunny skies with some haze and fog, temperature 28 degrees. This is Minnesota Public Radio news.

GARY EICHTEN: All right. Thanks, Perry. It's six minutes past 11:00.

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And good morning. Welcome to Midday on Minnesota Public Radio news. I'm Gary Eichten. President Bush says the year is ending on a high note. The president, speaking this morning at a White House press conference, said the country can be proud of the legislation that passed and wasn't passed in these waning days of 2007. Congress wrapped up its work for the year yesterday, passing a half trillion dollar budget bill that includes $70 billion for the war, no strings attached.

President today criticized the size of that overall spending bill. He criticized the democratically controlled Congress for not doing more to rein in spending earmarks, and he criticized Congress for spending too much time debating the war in the past year. But despite all that, the president said that he and Congress have much to be proud of and he said he hopes this end of the year momentum can carry over to the new year. He says he, for his part, will do his part.

Of course, it was a year ago today, almost to the day, when Minnesota's three new members of Congress joined us to talk about their hopes for 2007, what they hoped their first year in Congress would bring. Democrats Keith Ellison and Tim Walz talked about ending the war. Republican Michele Bachmann talked about shrinking the size of government. Well, that was a year ago. And today, Congressman Ellison and Walz have returned to look back on their first year in Washington. 1st district Democrat Tim Walz represents Southern Minnesota, 5th district Democrat Keith Ellison represents Minneapolis and some of the surrounding suburbs.

And by the way, we also invited representative Bachmann to join us, but she declined. However, if you have a question for Congressman Ellison and Walz, give us a call 651-227-6000. 651-227-6000. Toll-free number 1-800-242-2828. Or you can send in your question or comment online. Go to our website, minnesotapublicradio.org and click on Send a Question.

Gentlemen, thanks for joining us.

KEITH ELLISON: Hey, Gary. Glad to be here.

TIM WALZ: Thanks, Gary. Pleasure.

GARY EICHTEN: So how did the first year in Washington square with your expectations for the first year in Washington? Congressman Walz.

TIM WALZ: Well, I guess for me, Gary, and where I differed a little bit from my two freshmen colleagues in that I didn't have the legislative experience. So the expectations, I guess, were somewhat different because I hadn't seen that body work. I would say, overall, I was, I guess, very optimistic that the system works the way you would hope it would. There's a lot of give and take in terms of discussions that happen, especially in our caucus, where decisions are truly made.

At times, that's very empowering. It's very much the way you'd like to think things are. At other times, it's terrifying to know there's no safety net there on some of the things we're discussing. And I think overall, we brought a new agenda and a new set of values that we wanted to see enacted. We wanted to make college more affordable. We wanted to make sure that the environmental issues and climate change were addressed. We wanted to make sure oversight was restored to the first branch of government by asking things and asking questions.

I think the president's comments this morning that too much time was spent debating the war, I would argue you can never spend too much time debating a war. That is the inherent responsibility of all Americans. And the president just wasn't used to that and the president wasn't used to things being questioned. And he used his veto power, which is well within his responsibility as the executive branch. But I think he used it on things like SCHIP. He used it on things like more accountability on this conflict in a way that I think the American public will be the ultimate judges on it.

So overall, for me, I think ethics reform that came around. Was a big thing that I ran on. We saw some great changes in veterans care, largest ever. And we passed a Farm Bill and will get to the president's desk next month that I think showed the way government could work. So overall, I was-- I'm optimistic. I know there's a lot of work to be done. I think people are realizing they learned the word cloture this year very well, and 60 votes in the Senate. And those things all play into this. But I think the system is healthy, the system is still there. We've got a lot of work to do, but I feel a real responsibility to restore that, so.

GARY EICHTEN: Congressman Ellison, did this first year in Congress meet your expectations?

KEITH ELLISON: Well, it's funny, Gary, I didn't have very much in the way of expectations. I went there trying to do the best I could for the people of America in the 5th congressional district, and I didn't have any settled expectations as to what to expect. I had never been a page or worked in Washington before. And I did have legislative experience, as Tim pointed out, but it's so different from the state legislature that within about a week, I found out that I couldn't apply the same rules as I did before.

For example, in the State House, we have assigned seats. In the Congress, we don't. You just go down there and vote with your card. A lot of differences. But overall, I feel good about the year. I will tell you that the omnibus bill that we passed on the last vote of the year is we got some things done in there that we wanted, but it is not adequate for the long-term investment that the American people need.

We do need to revisit. We do need a new-- in my opinion, I'm here to give you my opinion, we need a new president and we need to get a Congress, a Senate that will look at the long-term investment needs of the country. As Tim pointed out already, we've got to have children's health insurance such that we can meet the needs of all children in America. We've got to have-- we've got to get out of this war militarily and be a productive force in terms of reconstruction and reconciliation.

There's so many things left to do and yet I feel that we were able to achieve some goals. Gary, one thing I just want to point out is that I know-- one of the organizing principles of my campaign was an opposition to the president's Iraq policy. We're still in Iraq. Of course, I can't be satisfied, given that's the case, but I want people to know that we did put up a strong opposition. We had many, many hearings.

And we passed-- actually passed a bill and put it on his desk, which brought accountability and brought-- and showed a way forward out of Iraq. But the president vetoed it. And so what's needed now for those folks who are so concerned about peace and justice as I am, is just we just have to remember we have to be persistent and we have to be consistent, and we can't expect that things are going to be done as quickly as we want, but that's when true resolve shows through.

GARY EICHTEN: All three of you, and I say the two of you and Republican Michele Bachmann, when you were in last year at this time, said you were opposed to this idea of the surge, increasing troop strength. Well, and you said the president probably will not push ahead with that because public opinion would never allow it. Well, he did, and public opinion seems to be more or less supportive of what's happened as a result.

Reports of progress, stability in Iraq, so on and so forth. What happened?

KEITH ELLISON: Well, I guess I don't agree that the public supported the surge or that the surge is what accounts for a greater degree of peace in places like Ramadi and Diyala. I think the fact is that tribal sheikhs in the Western provinces of Iraq formed a movement called The Awakening, and they went toe to toe with al-Qaeda and shot it out with them in the streets of Ramadi and took their community back.

And some really good soldiers, like General Gaskins and Colonel Charlton, supported that effort and helped stabilize and help promote reconstruction in the Western provinces and in places like Diyala in Iraq. I think that accounts for the change. Actually, as a matter of fact, The Awakening movement was before the surge. And in fact, we have seen a greater degree of peace in certain areas, and that's a good thing.

But the fact is that the fundamental problem is that the level of reconciliation that needs to take place within Iraq has yet to take place. Unfortunately, the Bush administration, in my view, has not done nearly enough to try to promote that reconciliation. And so there we find ourselves still in this conflict longer than we were ever even in World War II. So I don't think this is an occasion that the administration can claim victory on

GARY EICHTEN: Congressman Walz.

TIM WALZ: Yeah. Well, I think the number of troops, and what I thought, Gary, is that the surge, and it's not that I didn't understand that when you put more American soldiers on the ground, that they will bring more stability, at least in the short run. And if we had listened to General Shinseki in the first place, we would have had the number of troops necessary so the insurgency never got a foothold.

With that being said, I think the surge has coincided with the increased scrutiny that Congress has given to this war. And Secretary Gates himself has said on many occasions that the discussion of the war and the discussion of tactics and changes in policy was healthy because it did several things. One is it forced the Iraqis to realize that we weren't going to be there forever. We weren't setting up a dependency state there, and that the surge was meant for them to take charge of this.

Now, I'm pleased to see that some of the incidents are down. We still have an incredible refugee problem. We have many Iraqis returning home because they're running out of money now. We're still seeing domestic violence is fairly high in Iraq. And I think it's measuring something as an insurgency death, if you're shot in the front of the head or the back of the head when deaths are still deaths. And we still have that going on. I think the biggest news that's come out at least over the past half year was the Annapolis conference.

Well, whether anything comes out of that, but a realization that American foreign policy needs to be much broader than a street by street security effort, like the surge was. It needs to address the inequities, and especially the Israeli-Palestinian issue. It needed to address-- and I think when President Musharraf giving up his military title in Pakistan was a step forward and a re-realization that we're losing ground in Afghanistan, where till this day, and it's an absolute travesty, that the people who perpetuated 9/11 are still at large and are still living and working freely to bring about their means, which are definitely not in America's best interest.

So I think General Petraeus brought some coherency to this. I think General Petraeus did what, and the American military will always do. They will do their job and they will bring some stability. I think [INAUDIBLE] sentiment here that I want to see the al-Maliki government, they better deal with the carbon laws, they better deal with what's going to happen with the oil. They better decide what's going to happen with the Constitution. They better start moving those things forward. Or as president Bush so clearly pointed out last summer when deaths were high, you can't measure the progress in Iraq by a snapshot of when the deaths are high because I would argue that he was exactly right.

No more than you can measure them when they're low. If that core group of economic, political, and everything else isn't getting done. So I think we've got an opportunity here. I think the Middle East is at a time when we're seeing, as Keith said, the strategy is and has changed. It's better to make friends than to make enemies. And I think that that organic group of sheiks that started doing that, it's in our best interest. But I think, again, the enemy of my enemy is my friend type of thing. I think we need to be very cautious who we outfit.

Outfitting the Mujahideen in Afghanistan and training Osama bin Laden sure didn't work out well in the long run, even it was because they were anti-Soviet. So I think that the president has been forced to listen on this. We've held more hearings. We found out and asked about Blackwater, all the questions many of us had. And that's healthy. That is healthy because none of us have said we want to see a failed Iraqi state. Every one of us who came to office, I think the Democrats, at least, we said that the president's policy up until last year wasn't working. So I think there is a not just a coincidence that we come to office and things start to change a little more because we're asking the questions.

GARY EICHTEN: Talking this hour with Minnesota Congressman Keith Ellison and Tim Walz. They are back in Minnesota, having completed their first year representing Minnesota in the US House. They've joined us today to reflect back on that first year. We should also note, again, that we've invited Republican Michele Bachmann to join us as well as she completed her first year, but she was not able to do so.

If you would like to join our conversation, give us a call 651-227-000 or 1-800-242-2828. Or again, you can use our online service. Go to our website minnesotapublicradio.org. And then when you get there, click on Send a Question.

Were you gentlemen surprised at how unified the Republicans turned out to be in terms of supporting the president right down the line in terms of upholding-- making it difficult to pass legislation in the first place, upholding vetoes when necessary. The pundits kept saying, well, they would never back a weak president like that. But of course, they did. Congressman Walz.

TIM WALZ: Well, yeah, I was somewhat surprised because I feel like many of these policies are out of step with where the American public is going, and many of them have dug in, some of them fighting against the energy bill, which has incredible support across the political spectrum to raise fuel efficiency standards, to take the emphasis off of oil, especially foreign oil, that is a magnet for conflict. And yes, I was pretty surprised.

I think what's happened here is there seems to be-- it is about slowing down legislation. It's about the same old tactics. And with that being the case, there's very little message other than we're going to have to hold resistance. And I've always said this, when the president's approval ratings are low, like they are, and people say, well, Congress is just as low or lower, the one thing is the president's approval rating is talking about an individual.

What they're trying to do is undermine the support in the institution. And I think that's very dangerous. When I say that, they don't have to believe with where we're at, but these continuous motions to recommit, the obstructionism, and the trying to stop legislation, it's been very clear.

And I'll have to give it this. Our colleagues on the other side of the aisle are very disciplined in that. And they run a very-- I think it's-- I don't know if I would call it punitive, but there are repercussions for voting against that. I've always said, and as I was saying earlier in our caucus, you're allowed to vote your conscience, your constituency, and then they ask you to talk about the caucus. And I said, that is in very empowering. It's very-- to me, it was just very optimistic. But I said, at times, it broke us apart to the point where we couldn't hold a consistent message together because there wasn't going to be forcing that.

So yes, I was surprised. I think it's because there's going to be a very difficult election for them coming up again, because they haven't provided us-- no matter what the president says. President is talking about all these pet projects and earmarks. That's Highway 14. That's Keith's bridge repair.

KEITH ELLISON: Right. Right.

TIM WALZ: So him telling us that I said is when earmarks under him increased 200%, under us, they decreased 50%. Under him, lobbyists increased over 150%. So the president lecturing that they're trying to stick to an election message, not about governance. What I find in the 1st district is people want government. They want good government. They don't want politics or wasteful politics or divisive politics. So I think that I was surprised. I thought that the message would be better. But I can tell you that I think sticking that way they do at their own peril because I think the American public see that.

KEITH ELLISON: Tim, I have to say that I really wasn't that surprised, and I'm going to tell you why. Because I think that the president is pursuing a strategy to say, look, if my numbers are in the toilet, the last thing I can do is allow the Democratic Congress to look like it's going to be effective. So I'm going to obstruct. So now even though he never vetoes before, now all of a sudden he's vetoing everything. But as Tim just pointed out, this is putting political and partisan issues ahead of the best interests of the American people.

SCHIP supported by 80% of the American public, he vetoes it. I don't know why in the world we couldn't overcome. But I'm just going to say, on the other side of the ledger, Gary, we did defeat his veto on the water-- the water resource bill. We did in that. And we did have tremendous bipartisan support on the increasing the minimum wage, even on a number of the first agenda that we passed, 9/11 Commission recommendations. And the a number of things that we passed in the first 100 hours got overwhelming bipartisan support.

But you are right. When it came down to Iraq in particular and in SCHIP, they were able to hold on to a core that was very frustrating. But elections have consequences. The American people saw who was fighting for 'em and who wasn't.

GARY EICHTEN: Randy, your question please.

AUDIENCE: Yeah. I'd like to first off commend both of you. I think you guys have been fighting a good fight out there, and I understand it must be frustrating. I have a comment and then a question. The comment is-- well, they're both questions. How do you get rid of the perception that is becoming more and more prevalent, that it's become of the people, by the people, for the people with money.

And what is your true-- the energy bill that just passed has been just shoved down our throats as a wonderful, giant step forward, which I don't believe it is. What's your real opinion of the energy bill that just passed?

GARY EICHTEN: Congressman Ellison.

KEITH ELLISON: Well, let me jump in. I think that we have to face the unfortunate reality that money plays too big of a role in politics today. I know that I spend lots of hours on the phone asking people for money, and I don't think that it's necessarily healthy overall. It is a negative-- it is one of those unfortunate necessities of the job. But we have to have government paid-- government-funded campaigns, and we have-- and that's what we need to be able to do. That's a movement we have to go for.

In the meantime, we have to make sure that candidates really have an opportunity to talk on the-- talk and use the public airwaves to get a message out. And we have to make sure that debates are more inclusive. But unfortunately, I think that the caller, you have a good point. We got to make sure that it's not that way. But I will tell you that people power is strong. We've seen-- I'll tell you that a lot-- we get a lot of calls. I listen to my calls very carefully. I get a lot of mail. I listen to my mail very carefully, and I think that there's a whole lot of people who get their message through who don't have a bunch of money to pass out.

But I think that we got to understand that this is a problem that needs to be fixed. I'll say if you look at SCHIP, for example, the kids, these are not big money. These are kids, lower income kids, working poor kids. If you look at the minimum wage increase, these folks are not passing out big checks around Washington. So it's not all about money, but I will agree that it's a bigger problem than I would like.

GARY EICHTEN: Congressman Walz, you want to comment on the energy part of this?

TIM WALZ: Yeah, I will. And Randy, I thank you for your comments on this. And I think you're absolutely right. The one thing is that I think the reason people are talking so much about this energy bill, Randy, is that the last time this country had an energy policy, it was done behind closed doors with Enron executives, and the Supreme Court ruled we didn't have the right to know what they decided when we tried to find out what caused that energy bill, what implications that had in the rolling blackouts in California.

So I always told the story, the only person in my district, up until we passed this energy bill, that knew what our current energy bill was, was Jeff Skilling, the Enron executive who's in federal prison in Waseca. And what's good about this is there's been a dramatic shift. No one believed it was possible to take on those big special interests, improving fuel efficiency standards by 40%, having renewable fuels, getting some of the incentives away from big oil, and putting it into a sustainable future.

But you're absolutely right. I sure don't want to tell you, Randy, that this is perfect. But one of the things I have learned in Congress, and I think it's important for all of us to keep in mind, it's a process, not an event. And I was told some very wise words that we can't let the perfect get in the way of the very good. And I think the reason people are touting this was is that under this president, to have any type of movement on energy towards sustainability, renewables, or fuel efficiency seemed impossible. But this is one where the American public would have steamrolled anyone who opposed this. So I think that's where that one went.

KEITH ELLISON: And I actually agree with Tim on this point. If you don't mind me adding, Gary, I think that increasing the CAFE standards to 35 miles per hour is not that great when you compare it to Europe and you compare it to what we can do, but it is a significant increase over what we are doing. And so we need to just remember that there's another round coming up and we got to be ready to fight it. This is the time when people who want a greater, more fuel efficient, greener future have to just stick and stay and not quit.

GARY EICHTEN: Chris, your comment please.

AUDIENCE: Yeah, fellas, listen, we were all very heartened when you folks were elected. We expect to see some changes and we understand there's some inertia in there to the negative side. But the thing is we're so frustrated out here. We got to know-- we got to believe that some strategy here that Pelosi and Reid have got as to why they keep rolling over for these guys. Come on, guys. We've got to-- you've got to tell us what is the plan? Are you guys afraid that you're going to be beat over the head by the righties on the next election cycle if you go against some of these things?

GARY EICHTEN: Congressman Walz.

TIM WALZ: Yeah, I want to take this one on. And Chris, trust me that where you're coming from, we hear this a lot. And make no mistake, I'm right with you on this. 17 months ago, I was teaching in my high school classroom and I was frustrated to the point I said, we've got to change this. It's not that we're not afraid. I said, I will never cast a vote based on politics. I said, if I go back to my classroom, so be it. Yesterday I cast a vote with only 63 other members on middle class tax cuts. But rest assured, you're going to see huge ads.

I voted twice to fix the AMT, which I think is a terrible, unfair tax, but it was not paid for. And I'm not going to add $53 billion to our deficit. So I dug in on that. And my colleagues, even in leadership, told me, you need to just take the political easy way here and vote for this. I'm not going to do it. And what you need to realize, Chris, this is-- and it's not a cop out. We need to keep fighting the fight. Only one third of the Senate turned over. There has never been a time in our history where the House and the Senate are so out of phase or sync with each other.

And please keep in mind, our majority in the Senate is predicated on John McCain's latest endorser. So you have to realize that the Republicans have a huge amount of say in this, as they should, in terms of protecting the minority. But if we can't get 60 votes in the Senate, we can't even vote on it. So we in the House passed more legislation than any Congress in the last 20 years. We met more days than any Congress in the last 20 years. We put up some of the stiffest fuel efficiency standards, energy standards, changes, of course, in Iraq, some of the best stuff that got through for passing and helping our veterans, our children, making college more affordable.

But as long as we don't have 60 votes or the White House, the way the system is set up, we can't get it. And a woman said, well, you just need to do it anyway. I was at a public forum. She said, you just need to do this, do that. When she was done, I said, ma'am, you're describing a coup and we have a constitutional Republic. And so I know it's frustrating, but here's what I would tell you. As Keith said, round two is coming. And when round two gets in, that's where you'll see the changes.

GARY EICHTEN: But Congressman Walz, you voted for this budget bill, which includes $70 billion for the war, which you said you opposed. Why?

TIM WALZ: Yes. I never said I opposed the funding. I said I opposed the way the war was being carried out. I opposed the principles and the facts that got us into it. It doesn't change the reality that we're there. It doesn't change the reality that we have soldiers downrange. And in my 24 years of experience, I understand that if these things come to the point where the budget starts to get cut, I don't believe, and I don't criticize my colleagues who do this, I have to vote with my conscience. I know if that funding is not there, people who say cut the funding in this war we're in are predicating on President Bush doing the right thing in this war. That has not been my experience.

So the reason that I do that is until we can find a better way, until we have the momentum to get this thing done in a responsible manner, cutting the funding will not do what people think it will do. And I know there's people that will totally disagree with that, and I respect your opinion greatly. I can only go on what my experience is on this. So this would be one of those we couldn't get it through the House or through the Senate.

I wanted to see this have great measures on it. Not that I want to hamstring generals. That's a ridiculous argument. I want to force the Iraqis to realize that this nation no longer is going to or can maintain the type of presence we had. We've given them the opportunity. Now stand on your own feet and do what you need to do.

GARY EICHTEN: Now, Congressman Ellison, you voted against that bill.

KEITH ELLISON: Yes, I did.

GARY EICHTEN: Even though it had money for the bridge in your district and a lot of other good projects. Now, how can you justify that?

KEITH ELLISON: Well, the posture-- the posture of the question. The question when we came back from the Senate was, do you agree with the Senate amendment? The Senate amendment was the Iraq funding, and I've decided that I am not going to say I'm opposed to this war and then continue to vote to fund it. So I voted no. But I can tell you that I wasn't-- I voted-- I've never, ever voted against meritorious projects, like our bridge. I've been a consistent fighter all along. And the question before us was not the bridge funding. It was the Senate amendment, which was the Iraq funding.

And let me just tell you, I sent my staff after this question aggressively because I knew that this was going to be one of those tough times when we're going to have to really search our souls and ultimately decide whether to press red or green. There is no other button to push, Gary, as you know. Yes or no. That's how we get to vote. And I hadn't-- I had to vote no because I felt that I could not agree with that Senate amendment, which included the Iraq funding.

And again, we are all sent here from our individual districts. We all have to search our souls and do what we think is right. We all have to-- and we bring what we have to bear. We have our experiences. We have our intellect. We have all the people we're talking to. Our districts are different. Our districts aren't all the same either. The people who send us here expect us to cast votes which reflect their views. And I think that the 5th congressional district is a place that is just absolutely had it with this war and wants their representative to oppose it in every way that we can.

And so that would account for it. But no, that this vote was not about the bridge. It was all about Iraq funding.

GARY EICHTEN: Talking to Sarah with Minnesota Congressman Keith Ellison, who represents Minnesota's 5th district, Tim Walz, who represents Minnesota's 1st district as they reflect back on their first year in Congress. If you have a question, give us a call, 651-227-6000 or 1-800-242-2828. Online address is minnesotapublicradio.org. And we'll get to more of your questions here in a couple of minutes.

SPEAKER 2: Programming is supported by Second Harvest Heartland, who, thanks to their many donors, is coming closer to achieving their mission of ending hunger in the heartland. More information at 2harvest.org.

GARY EICHTEN: The following is a test of the emergency alert system.

Professor Johnson, we get an A on the test? Excellent. All right, let's catch up on the headlines. Steven John, go ahead, please.

STEVEN JOHN: Good morning, Gary. President Bush says he's reserving judgment on the destruction of CIA interrogation tapes until pending investigations are completed. The tapes showed harsh interrogations of two suspected terrorists and were destroyed in 2005. The incident is being investigated on several fronts. The president says he didn't know about the tapes or their destruction until he was briefed earlier this month. The US military says an American soldier and at least five Iraqi civilians are among the dead from a suicide bombing today outside a city council meeting Northeast of Baghdad 10 soldiers were hurt.

A morgue official said 14 civilians were killed. The reason for the discrepancy isn't known yet. In other violence, a car bomb exploded near a liquor store in the center of Baghdad, killing four civilians. The attacks came as American soldiers discovered mass graves next to what they say was a torture center in Diyala Province, North of Baghdad.

The Commerce Department reports the economy sprinted ahead this summer at its fastest pace in four years. The 4.9% GDP growth was especially impressive coming amid the housing market plunge, but analysts expect the economy to slow through the final three months of this year as housing and credit issues take their toll.

Doctors are giving Republican presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani the OK to go home to New York after spending a night in a Saint Louis hospital. His campaign office says Giuliani had flu-like symptoms and went to the hospital for precautionary tests. A citizens group is going to court to try to block Minneapolis from trying an instant runoff voting system in its 2009 elections. Attorney Erick Kaardal says the Minnesota Voters Alliance and several citizens are filing the lawsuit. Instant runoff voting is an alternative method in which voters rank their choices for each office. It would eliminate primary elections.

Minnesota weather. Still some fog statewide. Areas of sunshine mixed in, maybe some patchy mixed freezing drizzle and light snow. Highs from the upper 20s to mid 30s. Gary.

GARY EICHTEN: All right. Thanks, Steven. It's 24 minutes before 12:00. This is Midday on Minnesota Public Radio. Over the noon hour, we're going to hear from Minnesota musician, author, essayist Bill Holm out with a new book, Windows On Brimnes, An American In Iceland. And I think you'll find that pretty interesting. This hour we're talking with Bill Holm's congressman, Tim Walz, and also who represents Minnesota's 1st district, Minnesota Congressman Keith Ellison, who represents Minnesota's 5th district.

And they're reflecting on their first year in Congress, which came to an end yesterday. We also invited Michele Bachmann, Congresswoman Michele Bachmann, to come by, but she declined. However, we have a full bank of callers with questions for Congressman Ellison and Walz, and you can send your question in also online at minnesotapublicradio.org. When you get there, click on Send a Question. Ali, your question, please.

AUDIENCE: Yeah. This question is for Keith Ellison. And I am Somali who lives in Minneapolis. And I never heard Congress talking about what's going on in Somalia. There's a billion people dying from hunger and Ethiopian troops are doing genocide in Mogadishu. Why the Congress they don't want to talk about this issue?

GARY EICHTEN: Congressman Ellison.

KEITH ELLISON: Well, let me just tell you that-- well, Eid Mubarak. But let me just say that this issue is very much on the minds of people in Congress. I can tell you that I have conversations about Somalia almost every day. As a matter of fact, Congressman Donald Payne, who is the chairperson of the subcommittee on Africa, is going to Somalia. He and I talk about Somali almost every day because he knows I have such a large percentage of Somalians in my district. And I think, Tim, you have a number of Somali community as well.

TIM WALZ: Absolutely.

KEITH ELLISON: But I want to tell you that I have taken a very firm position that Ethiopia should leave Somalia. And I know that not everyone agrees with that position, but I think it is the right and moral position. And I think that, given the loss of life and given the long-term suffering Somalia has suffered, that we've got to bring this violence to a very abrupt end. I've signed letters to this effect and I've supported this, and I will continue to do so.

But I also want to let you know that members of the Somali community have come to the Congress, have walked the halls of Congress, and have made the issue very clear to members of Congress. Individual Somali members and various people who are from Somalia itself have walked the halls of Congress and talked to individual members of Congress and just really left information and made themselves very clear. So I don't want you to think that people don't care about Somalia. Somalia is an important issue, and I will continue to do this.

And again, I will do-- and Gary, this is an important thing for me to add. Congressman Donald Payne has promised to come to Minnesota to address the issue of Somalia. And after he said, particularly after his trip there in the beginning of the new year, he'll have a lot more to tell.

GARY EICHTEN: Want to get back to this earmarks question that the president raised this morning. And he noted that progress was made in reducing the number of earmarks. But he said the Democratic-controlled Congress still way over the top here when it comes to these special interest earmarks. I think that's the phrase he used.

TIM WALZ: Yeah.

GARY EICHTEN: Well-- and Congressman Kline, for example, 2nd district Republican here in Minnesota, is refusing earmark money. Says it's corrupt this year. Not in past years. This year under Democrat--

KEITH ELLISON: What year you mean there.

GARY EICHTEN: Are these earmarks, the acceptance of that kind of money corrupt?

KEITH ELLISON: No.

TIM WALZ: Well, let me explain where these are coming from, and then Keith will have this. But the president lecturing on fiscal responsibility is a bit like the DC Madam lecturing Mother Teresa on morality. They increased under him hundreds and hundreds of percent. And there were earmarks all over. And of course, the influence there was is they were not earmarks for the bridge and Highway 14. They were earmarked for Duke Cunningham's boat and yacht. And what we have done is we've brought a transparency to this. We've brought that this is the first time in the history of Congress that you have to attach your name to an earmark.

Now, I can't believe it hadn't already been there. We have to sign an affidavit that no one in our family or immediate friends or donors are going to make money off our projects. We've reduced them by 50%. And the thing that people have to understand about earmarks, I'm not going to defend the system where seniority is able to get more to that. But there has to be a sense of you can make any set of laws you want. It's the integrity of the officeholder. So what I did on my earmarks was these are local projects that have been vetted by local public officials who are definitely responsible to their constituents, like all the mayors along Highway 14, from Mayor Albrecht in New Ulm, Mayor Kuhn in Owatonna on down the line.

And this is not extra money. If this money is not set aside for these projects, it goes back into that general budgeting and then it is earmarked via the administration's appointee. So Secretary of Transportation Mary Peters will dole it out. Secretary of Homeland Security will dole it out, Chertoff. Or in the case of FEMA, at one point, then Secretary Brown, Attaboy Brownie, will dole it out.

My point on this is when I'm asking for money for cancer research at the University of Minnesota and the Hormel Institute, Highway 14, or asking for domestic violence research down at Winona State University, they have an elected official who is responsible to them every two years standing in front of them. I have signed affidavits on this. These have been vetted and they are partnership programs, in some cases, public private partnerships, that benefit everyone in there. So my take on this is now to say you put forward you have all these projects that you want, you want to do these things.

My Republican colleagues have to realize it sounds good to say you want to help veterans and you want to put a program in to help veterans, but you're not willing to ask for the money to tag that money. I don't agree with it. So I think that we have done a good job with it. I think there's still abuses that need to be laid out, but it's getting better.

KEITH ELLISON: I agree with Tim. I don't know how you can say that a gunshot detection system for Minneapolis, given the violence people say, is some sort of a pork thing. How can you say the Minnehaha watershed or the Northstar commuter rail or central corridor, these are important projects. These are important things that Minnesotans need and people all over the country have them. I put my name next to it. I can stand on the House floor and justify every one of these things I ask for. And so I just cannot agree with that formulation.

TIM WALZ: It resonates with the public, though, and the president has seen and there's still the bleed over from Abramoff and the K Street scandal, Tom DeLay and some of that stuff. We still have members on the floor that are under indictment from some of this, but the system itself shouldn't be. This would be to throw it all out, I think. And if we're going to do that, I guess people need to realize it's going to be much more difficult to deal with projects and what I think is a very conservative and very close to the people, because the mayors of Owatonna, they know everybody in town and they're the ones that ask for these projects. So the mayors over in Minneapolis.

So I think the president is trying to make some hay out of this. I think we have to have utmost scrutiny on these things. But I want people to know that I don't think it's wrong to fight for your district.

GARY EICHTEN: Tom, your question please.

AUDIENCE: Yes. Thank you for taking my call. I want to thank you both for your service to our country. And a question for both of you, especially Congressman Ellison, is that in your campaign literature, you have mentioned that you will stop the illegal torture and illegal wiretapping. Now, we have been hearing more and more about the CIA torture tapes and the government and the Bush administration trying to make phone companies get away from what they turn over to the government. My question is, what is the Congress going to do to prevent this from happening again?

GARY EICHTEN: Congressman Ellison.

KEITH ELLISON: Well, let me just tell you this, the House passed a important improvement to the FISA bill. That's the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which requires that if you're an American citizen, that there would have to be a warrant to surveil you. So there are things that have been done in moving forward on this issue. I can tell you on the issue of torture, one of the things that we passed is that, and that the president opposes, is that the US Army manual sets the standard for interrogations.

And military people will tell you that torturing people does not bring you better information. It just-- people will just tell you whatever you want them to hear. But I want to tell you that I've raised issues around habeas corpus in Guantanamo, introduced a bill to that effect with Representative Jerry Nadler. I have worked on this issue tirelessly, and we continue to do so. Also visited the Pentagon and raised questions about Samuel Hodge, who was a journalist who was in Guantanamo right now.

Just want to know why he can't get a process to determine whether he's a threat or not. This guy is a cameraman. It concerns me when a journalist whose responsibility is to inform the public is in custody for doing that job. And so you can bet that we will continue to fight on that front. And I think Tim probably wants to comment on this as well.

GARY EICHTEN: But has anything actually changed in the past year on this issue?

KEITH ELLISON: Yeah.

TIM WALZ: Even in the FISA legislation, which was not by any means a good bill, and I would probably define it as one of those that a very bitter pill to swallow, that made sure that we had at least the Director of Homeland Security, as well as the attorney general, having oversight as well as the committees in both Houses looking over that. There's much work to be done. It expires because no one would have signed on to it had it not had a sunset clause. So we'll direct it. The biggest thing is we are now at least addressing the issues.

The president made it clear for all the years prior to us getting there that it was somehow unpatriotic to talk about this. I think it should be a prerequisite for any running for office to answer the question, is waterboarding torture? And has this nation served well by that? You can try and justify it all you want, but I think what people need to realize, those who say we're soft on terrorism or all of that, we're the ones that increase the border guards here in the United States, as well as securing our ports, as well as having a good strategy.

One of the strategies is, and as a soldier I know this, is that, as Keith said, torture doesn't work. There's always the fear, too, that if a nation condones torture, there's no reason for people to surrender. There's also no reason to give you quarter if you're captured. Those types of things. What we're trying to do, the battle here, is to win the hearts and minds. The soul of this nation has always been one that the idea that we would even, as US congressmen, discuss what torture is is unbelievable because everyone in this nation knows it.

And I think I've listened to members on the floor, members of our current house of Representatives that think it's OK to take someone, give them no rights, strip them naked, turn them upside down, stick a rag in their mouth, and pour water in their mouth to make it feel like they're drowning, and think that that's OK and that they can justify it in the end. That is a counterproductive. And even as Keith said, on the slight chance you actually get good information, the damage that does in the long run to this nation's not only standing in the world, but to our own, I guess, moral psyche is incredible.

So, Tom, I would have to say, I wish there were more like you that were expressing deep concern, but you can-- Keith is right. These people out there, ourselves, working hard to make sure we get this right.

KEITH ELLISON: If I could just one clarify, the bill that was passed in August and was signed into law, that's the one that I agree with Tim, was not a good law.

TIM WALZ: Not a good one.

KEITH ELLISON: And I also want to say, but the Restore Act that the House passed--

TIM WALZ: Yes.

KEITH ELLISON: --was significantly better.

TIM WALZ: Absolutely.

KEITH ELLISON: And that's the point that I was making.

GARY EICHTEN: Is the US torturing people?

TIM WALZ: Well, if we're using waterboarding, we are. I have to say that. And I don't think it does us any good to go anywhere else on that. The rest of the world seems to. The Geneva Convention includes it as that. And we signed these accords for a very important reason. These are things that were under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And I feel very-- and the argument that's always made, and it's a false argument always, that the bomb is ticking and every one of these people know that the bomb is ticking.

The problem is, we've already found out many of these people have been released with nothing on them afterwards. And this nation, again, we want to protect our safety, but our core principles-- if you're giving up the core principle of human dignity and that you don't torture people, what's left to protect? And--

KEITH ELLISON: Tim, let me just add this. Not only is waterboarding torture, we're outsourcing torture. We're having other people do our torture for us, like Syria. There's a guy-- I was in a committee hearing with a man named Maher Arar, who was a Canadian citizen of Syrian ancestry, who was-- when he was coming back from overseas through New York, was taken into custody, was put incommunicado for two weeks, then sent to Syria, tortured, put in a cell the size of a coffin. Then they said, oh, you're not the guy we thought you were.

Now, let me tell you, from Republican to Democrat, both sides of the aisle, when he appeared before our committee, apologized to him because no one but no one believes he's the person who he was believed to be when he was abducted. The Canadian government has done a full inquiry and completely exonerated him and compensated him. And yet, when he was in front of our committee, he had to appear vis-a-vis satellite because the State Department wouldn't take him off the terrorist watch list yet.

I'm telling you, when Dana Rohrabacher, who's a hardcore Republican, as you know, says, I apologize. You're not the person who we thought you were, but we're in a war on terror, so we had to do this. I disagree with him on that.

TIM WALZ: Yeah.

KEITH ELLISON: But there was no dispute as to whether this was the wrong thing to do. It was clearly the wrong thing to do. We can't torture and we can't outsource it either. And we've got to draw a firm line in the sand and say that we are better than that and that-- my patriotism is rooted in the fact that this country is a good country and stands for the right things, and Americans need to come together on this point.

GARY EICHTEN: Jerry has an online question wanting to know, can you talk about the partisanship issue? Is it improving, getting worse? What are you doing to improve relations between Republicans and Democrats? And let me tag on to that. Do you have personally any real close friends on the other side of the aisle?

TIM WALZ: Yes. Yes, we both do, I think. And Jerry's question is probably at the root of these are all important issues, but until this one is addressed, it's going to be very difficult. No, no. The partisanship is still very much there. It's much stronger in the leadership. And I would say my observations are redistricting in this country has created a lot of districts that are either very, very strong to the left and Democratic or very, very strong to the right and Republican. And quite honestly, there's very few like mine that is truly 50/50 or 51-49 and--

But I see members. I know Keith works a lot on the other side of the aisle. I know Keith comes from a very strong DFL district, but Keith understands the need on this is about compromise. It's about us getting together. It's about showing the American people. It's about effectiveness. And I do have good friends on both sides of the aisle. I think both of us would agree. I go for advice, even on policy a lot, not just politics, but to Jim Ramstad, who many of us respect greatly. I spend a lot of time with my freshmen reps, Gus Bilirakis and a few of these people who said on VA with me, and they're over there.

These are new members. We share a lot in common. Our families have spent a little time together and we're really working at that. I think that's something that, as Jerry's question alluded to, I think the American public is demanding us to do that.

KEITH ELLISON: Well, let me tell you, on the Liberian issue, I worked closely with Tim Walberg on that issue, together with Patrick Kennedy, on the-- Jim Ramstad on mental health parity. Zach Wamp, who's from Tennessee, on issues of Muslim, Christian, Jewish, interfaith dialogue is something that he's taken a big interest in and I have an interest in as well. And so we work across the aisle a lot. But the truth is, on certain votes, we're just not going to agree. Issues of war and peace, how we divide up the economic pie in America.

There will be times we disagree. But I think that the funny thing is, one on one, we tend to get along really well.

TIM WALZ: Yes.

KEITH ELLISON: But when we get in our groups, we tend to balkanize. And that's just an interesting phenomenon. I think that one of the things too is that I think that when a big sweep comes through Congress, a lot of the people who are in the middle tend to get wiped out. And I think sometimes some of those more moderate voices, some of the Democrats that are closer to Republicans or Republicans that are closer to Democratic positions, I mean, it seems like taking the more strident position is the one that sometimes people want to hear you take.

GARY EICHTEN: Let me ask-- let me ask you this, gentleman. Now, when you were here last year at this time, I asked you how people should judge whether you were a success. And of course, it was actually going to be at the end of two years, but what the heck, we'll jump ahead for a year here.

KEITH ELLISON: Interim report card.

GARY EICHTEN: Congressman Ellison, you said judge me on whether I'm responsive to my constituents, whether I'm visible in the community, and whether I deliver on my campaign promises to end the war and help the middle class. So that being the standard, how would you-- how would you rate your performance?

KEITH ELLISON: I could only give myself a B. I've had over 20 town hall forums. We've been responding to mail and email. We've been very visible in the district. I think I did very well on that. I think that on middle class prosperity issues, I was front and center on the issue of the subprime mortgage crisis, brought Barney Frank's here, introduced bills to redress the predatory lending and credit card debt issues, and increased the minimum wage, and tried to improve middle class-- the hit of the AMT, try to be responsible on that.

And also increased-- was part of increasing veterans funding, which I think is a middle class issue. But on the other-- but when it comes to-- and also, but when it comes to the war, I think we're still there. I can't give myself good marks on that because we're still there. I will say that I get good marks for effort, but you know what? Results are very important here. And I'm going to hold myself to a high standard. Won't rest until we responsibly and safely militarily get out of Iraq and really invest in terms of reconstruction and reconciliation.

I'd like to see us have a regional conference where we come together in Baghdad or in the region, pull the regional players and the internal factions and really talk about stopping the violence and really beginning the reconstruction in Iraq.

GARY EICHTEN: Congressman Walz, you said judge you on your constituent service, the way you conduct yourself, hopefully in a way that constituents can be proud of you, and you wanted to be judged on whether you were promoting a vision that transcends politics. How do you rate yourself?

TIM WALZ: Well, I think I've done pretty well on those things, I would have to be honest. I think Keith was probably being a little harder on himself. We don't have the White House, so Keith's work on the war has been there. As a teacher in that, I would probably give him an A on that. I think I've done pretty well. Our response in constituent outreach, as Keith said, we're very visible. We're as accessible as anyone could imagine. And I think people would say that we've had 150 public meetings, over two dozen forums. We wrote the Farm Bill, beginning farmer and rancher legislation.

Some good stuff on conservation security programs were written out of those meetings, went to me, went through subcommittee, went into law. We responded to our flooding. The worst maybe the state had ever seen, I think in a very proactive manner. Very high profile. And I very much took responsibility for that. I said, don't blame FEMA. Put a face to this. It's not a faceless bureaucracy. I've worked tirelessly for veterans and elevated that. And I think I've elevated myself as a national spokesperson on that issue, that people say that this is one of those issues that he understands.

We helped write a Farm Bill that, again, is not perfect, but it's pretty good. And I think I've talked about the things that I sure don't claim to have all the answers, but I do know that I will go out and search for them. I want to get to the point where many of these issues are, as Keith said, we're going to differ on some core issues, but effectiveness of working together. I have not been critical. I don't think I've taken a tone of attacking. I haven't been a flamethrower. I've been one that I think my colleagues on both sides of the aisle see me as someone who will be reasonable on the issues.

And once we take on an issue, I tend to be kind of a bulldog on it and stick with it. And I'm still fighting on some of these things with our veterans, but we're getting them through and getting them paid for. So I think overall, it's been a great learning experience. It's a humbling experience to represent such great people. But I'm standing on the shoulders of giants down there in the things that have been done in the 1st district, and I think I'm representing them well.

GARY EICHTEN: Big issue for the coming year. We don't have a lot of time left. Congressman Walz.

TIM WALZ: We have to finish the Farm Bill, obviously, and we're going to have to once again take a strong look at our foreign policy as it deals with Iraq. It's not going to go away. I'm deeply concerned about Afghanistan. And I would say an issue that was I was unfortunately predicting when we won support for combat pay in Kosovo is we still have problems in the Balkans, and they're going to have to get that work through. So the United States, again, has to do that.

And I would leave you with this one message that came out of the Bali conference, where the nations of the world were there, and they said, we need you and we look to you for leadership, but if you don't give it, you're going to have to step out of the way and we'll do it. The rest of the world is asking us to have that voice again, to stand up and lead with a vision on climate change, on global peace, on food issues. And it's time for us to do that.

GARY EICHTEN: Congressman Ellison.

KEITH ELLISON: Well, if you look at your average American, most families are living with a negative 1% or maybe even 2% savings rate. Americans have three decades of stagnant wages, increasing energy costs, increasing health care costs are really struggling. And so I'm going to-- I think one of the huge issues is going to continue to be consumer debt. And under that is the subprime mortgage crisis, mounting individual debt, payday loans, title loans, things that people are having to go to in order just to make it.

Middle class prosperity is the deal. That's what we've got to work on. We need a high wage strategy to put more money, more real dollars in people's pockets so that they can actually meet the needs of their families. That means health care will continue to be a big deal. And of course, I agree with everything Tim said about the international policy issues as well. I think-- I hope to see Annapolis truly take off, people really invest in the Israeli-Palestinian crisis. And so those will be some of the high points.

GARY EICHTEN: 5th district Congressman Keith Ellison, 1st district Congressman Tim Walz, thanks for joining us today.

TIM WALZ: Thanks, Gary.

GARY EICHTEN: Congressman Ellison and Walz joining us to reflect back on their first year in Congress. Again, we want to note that we also invited Michele Bachmann to stop by, 6th district Republican, but she declined. OK, we're going to break for some headlines. And then when we come back, we're going to shift gears altogether here. We're going to hear from well-known Minnesota essayist Bill Holm, who's out with a new book. We'll hear from them right after the headlines.

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