(00:00:00) It is six minutes now past 11:00 and good morning. Welcome to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten. Glad you could join us. Well, this is presidential campaign week in Minnesota true. The next presidential election doesn't come around for another year and a half but several people who want to be the next president including the current President George W bush will be in Minnesota this week looking for support president himself will be here Thursday for what's billed as a non-political stop in Friendly to promote the new federal tax cut. We will have live coverage of the president's visit then on Friday several Democrats who want to be president will be in st. Paul to appear at a national meeting of Democratic party officials. The exact schedule of that event is still a little fluid, but we'll be covering their appearances as well today on. Midday. We've been joined by a former presidential candidate who turned American politics upside down former Minnesota. Senator, Eugene McCarthy's anti-war campaign for president in 1968 is still pointing. To is one of those Watershed campaigns that energized a generation of young people and convinced a sitting President Lyndon Johnson to step aside in 1970 Senator McCarthy left the Senate, but he has remained active in public life running for president as both a Democrat and an independent writing several books on public issues and writing several volumes of poetry as well. He's also been good enough to come by our Studios when he's back here for in Minnesota from his home in Washington, and he is here today to talk about politics and whatever you might be interested in. So give us a call Our Guest is former Minnesota senator Eugene McCarthy, and if you have a question or a comment for the senator, our Twin City area number is 6512276 thousand 6512276 thousand. Our toll-free line is 1-800-222-8477 6,000 or 1-800 to for to to 828 Senator McCarthy. Welcome back to Mid. Thanks for coming right. All right, what's all these candidates in town? And you're in town. Is there a coincidence here? Are you thinking about announcing this week? (00:02:10) Well, I wasn't invited to Discovery meeting. So I don't think I'll do much in the Democratic party this year. It's a it's a curious time, you know, really Linden's. Tapes and and watching the political scene and thinking back to 68 when there was some of the much of the politics which was below the surface. It's kind of good to have Linden tearing off the (00:02:37) tape. What are you even listening to those are reading about it and I (00:02:41) haven't listened. I've listened to a couple of my eye mostly. I just read those transcripts that specialist has put out pretty good. (00:02:51) What have you found particularly surprising about (00:02:53) those? Oh, I wasn't too much surprised. It was you just had to assume that these things were going on because of what happened but it is such an honest report on the part of linen of what he was doing what was happening what he thought and what other people were saying to him you're doing to him that filled in the gaps from my point of view 68 (00:03:20) had people do you think if people would have known a little bit Our about what was happening behind the scenes you would be president the United. (00:03:28) Well, I don't think so. We actually we in 68 I made a point of saying we were didn't expect to win but we demonstrate that there was a strong sentiment against the war and if one were considered about tactics and only time that you can challenge the president really is in an election year and they were election year came at just the right time for our challenge in 68 with to try to do something about a war now when there is the campaign in progress is really kind of a waste of time. It was the president starts a war. You can't do much about it. Unless you beat him. (00:04:11) Have you been paying much attention to the to the campaign such as it is so (00:04:16) far? Well, you can't escape it all together with television, you know, and they keep moving it up. It's sort of like what happened to the religious orders have been addicted to begin to anticipate Vespers and anticipate the prayer hours until they were referred a head us day ahead of schedule. They were they'd anticipated. So they'd have a have a free free day or free week, but they get so many prayers in advance that they have stashed up. They just work on the on the on the on the made-up work, you know, and they eventually they kind of lost track of when they were supposed to be saying their prayers. (00:04:57) The campaigns are long, but I guess they have to be that way they well they (00:05:02) don't have to be it is I think it's a serious mistake, but when they got into this competition for what you were going to have your who's going to have the first Primary in in 68? The primaries were there only about four or five that are event has any significance and and New Hampshire was the earliest one and that was the 15th of March and the nothing in February. So they then got into B will be first in the end of the fight between Hampshire and and and Iowa and the party agreed they'd have both of them could be early but one could only be a primary and the other one had to be a caucus and and this year everyone was every time I read up the paper I pick it up and read it they're moving up a Democratic primary or caucus in February and I wanted to stress what they do that because February I see was Wisconsin which was not until April in 1968 is now going into February 2 and That is it's just really why the Democrats are in so much trouble February is the worst month. It was to make decisions how so well have been saying is that ever since the old Greeks began to look at it and February a worship the dead even today is people who in northern states and Northern countries are depressed in February. They die death rate is higher in places like Norway and Sweden and upper Germany and so on in February and they're generally depressed in February, even the animals are depressed Lee father groundhog in Wisconsin some years ago and in February and his body temperature was 39 degrees. It is possible that he 10 beats to the minute. He was just barely alive and he and all the animals do is try to get through February the here we are the Democrats say we're going to make our major decisions in February when even the groundhog says get lost, you (00:07:26) know, do you still consider yourself a Democrat? (00:07:31) Well, I have been treated very well why I'm so I have laid any special claim to them or let them lady special claim to me I guess but I think Dispense the state is rather good book brought out. It was written by a woman in the social in the political science department over there on the tyranny of the two-party system and she establishes there. Really is no such thing as a two-party system. John Adams said it could be one but it would be the worst possible arrangement for politics under the Constitution like ours. So it's all come together, but she's written a book on the on the tyranny of the two-party system. We sort of sustained my experience with it. And I'd like to see I don't hear you do it in a year or one campaign but some movement towards breaking up the two-party Monopoly or duopoly on politics of this country. (00:08:37) Do you think it's (00:08:38) record is so bad today though is if you look at it, you take a look at the last 50 years, which the two parties one or the others been in power. The two parties have dominated things is not very good. We had the whole McCarthy two parties both parties would they vied with each other to see which could be most anti-communist (00:08:59) we should clarify. That's Joe. For people who aren't open our American history (00:09:04) creation of it and they both supported the war 68 both parties were for the war. They most support of the federal election campaign all changes, which is the worst violation of first and second amendment and the we've had a record we've actually had party supported Wars for almost 50 years. Now, we had the Kennedy Cuban War which is still going on, you know, you talking about nation-building we had 50 years trying to undo and retake Cuba with no success and to go into Iraq, which is much more complicated and suggested. It'll be a matter of two or three weeks and and we're finding the same thing. They just don't know what to do about it and they didn't know what to do about the Cuba and still don't know what to do about Cuba you so you had a war. And we're left with the results of it. And you had the Vietnam War which was really lost in the administration of Johnson. And you had the Korean War which is not over yet. And Harry Truman said I heard him say several times a day would try to impeach him if he'd agree to what Eisenhower agreed to please a continuous conflict in there was one in Cambodia and you could give some minor ones where we didn't stay very long like Reagan didn't stay very long in Lebanon and this is just 50 years has been continuous War. (00:10:47) You think it would be different if a third party candidate as it were were (00:10:52) president. Well, I think the chance anyway because what's happened it's consistent with John Adams said he parties would either go to extremes or they become in one undifferentiated and what's happened here is you can't tell one from the other without a card anymore. (00:11:10) You think it's likely that a real serious third-party independent type candidate will emerge it's pretty tough is (00:11:19) tougher now than it was before the federal election law was passed in 75 and 76 tougher than if we tried it in 74, I tried it and we couldn't really get any placement is one of the things that Landon is has been Frank about he has a tape. He's talking to Agnew. And he said young man remember, they're only two newspapers in this country the times and the Washington Post the only two television stations and networks are only two then there are only two are only two Anchorman. Then they hadn't been propagated the only to news magazines into wire services and and he said don't think you can fight them. This was Linen in nineteen was would have been 1969 saying that it's gone. So it's more difficult to do anything when you're going to have to to parties they endorsed by all of the sitter's of communication. (00:12:33) I guess this hour is former Minnesota senator and former presidential candidate Eugene McCarthy. He's been good enough to come by today to talk about presidential politics and really whatever you'd like to talk about. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call here at 6512276006512276. Thousand or toll free line is (00:12:53) 1-800-218-4243 (00:12:56) to our first caller here Jason your question for Senator McCarthy. Yeah, thanks for taking my call. I've thought about this two party system and I think that there's really only one way to get to a multiple party system. That is to change how we're running elections. Currently, we're running elections where we're making choices based on the better of two bad choices. A lot of people are making that sort of strategic choice and they don't want the other candidate to get there. So they vote not what they want to vote for but they vote for what they don't want to vote for and if we want to an instant runoff election sort of system. You could then vote. You know, what you really thought about the political Spectrum. My out there and try to voice your opinion through the electoral system, but have the backup position as a strategic of vote as well. I think the example is the 2000 election people could have voted for Ralph Nader if they felt they wanted a more Progressive National politic political system, but they could have also then done the Strategic vote of voting for Al Gore Senator McCarthy a good (00:14:09) idea. Well, it's not a bad idea of sort of what they call the fusion process you get to vote kind of twice and you have your first choice and you have a second one which goes through one of the other two major parties. I think you'd be going. Awry. I quite agree with him that the that the procedures in the system and especially now when we we know that the Supreme Court has been completely politicized that you can't expect the court to rule against either one or the other party because they need to court to preserve the two-party system, which is threatened. So you're quite right there also any number of institutional challenges and obstacles to a third-party choice, but I think it has to be made (00:14:57) do you think people would well, how are you going to get people to vote for even one candidate never mind to voting participation continues to drop the expert so-called experts tell us that people are becoming increasingly dis engaged from politics. What's that? All about? (00:15:18) Well, I think part of it is it's difficult to vote parties aren't offering too many choices and secondly. There's scarcity difference between the two parties. And 32 just haven't all been challenged. But but the procedures. Oh, it's more difficult to do anything about it even within a party that it should be (00:15:41) so may not be a lack of interest. It's just a lot of obstacles in the way in your (00:15:46) mind. Yeah. Well is you take the two thousand election people got out to vote. And when The Showdown cave they said stream Court said you can't count these votes. So the great effort and Clinton is really a not Clinton but bush is really a pretender to the throne If This Were a monarch a you'd be The Pretender and he probably wouldn't last more than a couple of years. It'll be a revolution but you can't do it under our system. It's if you want to ignore the institutions of the Supreme Court particularly as they as they did ignore in Insanity of 2000 election. Why our Doesn't provide for any easy way to to get a president to change in office. You can't can't you can impeach him and it's rather interesting the founding fathers. Were afraid of him getting peacefulness would be too easy. And they're almost impossible. Now that when they were when they were settling they were say we have to have provision so that it won't be easy to impeach a president and what they did was finally to say that if you like them, he's he's there for good. (00:17:07) Let's go back to the phone's Jan your question for Senator McCarthy. Thank you. It's an honor to ask you a question this morning (00:17:14) Senator. Thank you (00:17:15) after hearing that you think that there really is no difference between the two parties. I'm not sure if my question is is relevant. But I'm just finishing Senator Clinton's book right now and one of the things she brings up is a right-wing conspiracy. I would like your comment on that please (00:17:32) it was she brings up what the (00:17:34) right wing conspiracy. (00:17:35) Oh, well, I don't know. It's a conspiracy is pretty open arrangement. It's it's been been in the works for a long time. We had right Wing's offered to opt people operating in the Eisenhower Administration. So it's not a conspiracy. I it's just a what should be expected of what we've been been tolerating in politics. (00:18:05) A lot of Liberals are quite concerned about all the conservatives who you hear and see on talk shows radio shows and TV programs. Is that a cause of concern as far as you're concerned? Well, I guess it is but (00:18:20) I'm pretty much in favor of freedom of speech if they if the allow everybody who's willing and able and desires to communicate if there's no discrimination in terms of democrat or republican or liberal and conservative why I don't think you should be interfered with you. It's a challenge to those who were opposed. And but if you're if you're not allowed to speak or if you're closed out while the other speaks why it's an unfair Advantage. (00:18:51) Why do you suppose conservatives have prospered in that in that Arena and liberals have fallen on their face? Well, I think part of it (00:19:00) comes out of the federal election law 74 which for the first time. Set up bases for political packs. And the corporation's moved in and are the dominant contributors to both Republican and Democratic parties now and the corporation is not a fully responsible person. It's illegal construction. So you reduce both parties performers to the level of what responsibility of Corporation accepts and one Corporation is like any other Corporation and they expressed great concern because X has got two million dollars from Clement Stone better to have him get two million dollars from climbing stones to get in to get two million dollars from 15 other corporations. The only had a deal with Clement when you deal with the 20 other you hadn't filed what the pack stood for and Liberals are down. This is who begat have Clement Stone contributing to billion dollars to Richard Nixon think of the affected it have influence you have you see, what do you want? Pure Richard Nixon, I mean a little outside. influence might might be good for a woman who's just and Liberals are just never never aware of what was happening to we try to tell him in the 70-74 act that they had opened a way for corporate control of politics in America and you got it now and at the same time this was happening the warning that I've never give us about the military industrial complex was the reasoning to need for the Democrats in was it was demonstrated that the Military industrial movement was affected both parties and de tocqueville had warned against it in slightly different words in 1831. He saw a potential for the military to dominate politics in America. If we got to the point where you had a larger military than was needed for any immediate work. He said it becomes a republic within the Republic and and it didn't come as a surprise. They built it up the They change the name of the war department in 1947 World War 1 or 2 was fought with it by the war department but in 47 they change the name of it to the defense department. So we haven't had a real war ever since we just had defense. We've declared a National Defense no matter where it is in Iraq or or Grenada and the Russians are doing now everybody declares defense in the they did that. Then they contracted in 67 with a think tank, too. Determine what would be necessary for America to control the world and all of this was going to be done by the military industrial complex and it's worked its established. (00:22:14) I have to ask you one other question here before we break for news the collar brought up the question about Hillary Clinton you suppose she's going to be the first woman elected (00:22:23) president. Well, I don't know should she run for survival alive, which I do not to say she should run. I don't know. I didn't think Jimmy Carter should run. So I've been you have some I have some restraints about being far. But as you line her up with some of the candidates we have and some of the president's we've had including George Bush why she doesn't look too (00:22:51) bad. Pretty polarizing figure though. Is that all should that be a concern to (00:22:57) Americans? I don't know. It hasn't been really the alternatives to have presidents like Eisenhower. Who can I warn you when the after the horse is gone out of the barn. and I don't I saved you a question how you judge? No, I've always always out always maybe for 20 years and felt that the worst possible choice for president of the governor. That they're not only uninformed, but they're generally misinformed and don't have a proper conception of what the presidential function is and Hillary if she's alerted all wood will certainly learn something by being in the Senate which George Bush jr. Didn't burn (00:23:52) our yes. This hour is former Minnesota. Senator, Eugene McCarthy former presidential candidate, and he's in town visiting this week. He's been good enough to come by our Studios with ought to be interesting, especially with all the presidential candidates coming to town to talk with a former presidential candidate, and if you have a question, or a comment for Senator McCarthy, give us a call here at Twin City area number is 6512276 thousand 6512276 thousand or toll free line is 1-800-218-4243. Time now for some news headlines. Here's Tim plug Martin. Thanks Gary as US soldiers trying to crack down on a rocky resistance. There are signs the resistance is continuing the military says it has detained more than 400 people in dozens of raids in Baghdad in Northern Iraq in time. A US Soldier was killed by a sniper last night in Baghdad a federal appeals court panel says the Bush Administration can keep quiet about hundreds of detainees in a 221 ruling the court says the administration does not have to publicly identify the more than 700 foreigners a detained in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. Palestinian officials are hoping to reach a ceasefire deal soon with militant groups Palestinian prime minister Mahmoud. Abbas is to hold talks with militias today a Palestinian lawmaker says, there should be positive results may be within a day Roman Catholics in Arizona say they're praying for their spiritual leader Phoenix Bishop, Thomas. So Brian is charged with leaving the scene of an accident police say he hit a pedestrian with a car his car over the weekend and then drove away an intensive search has turned up. No trace of five-year-old a five year old Chisholm girl who disappeared over the weekend Liana Marie Warner left her house Barefoot for what should have been a block long walk to a neighbor's home Saturday. She hasn't been seen since the 17-day search for a man charged in a triple homicide near Pillager is over but the police investigation continues autopsy results confirmed that suspect Benjamin. Kennedy was found dead early yesterday in a Las Vegas hotel room Minnesota's unemployment rate held steady in May the state seasonally adjusted rate registered at four point three percent in May down slightly from 4.4 percent a year ago. It's almost two points under the national average of 6.1% The state unemployment rate held steady from April when it was also 4.3% the state. Forecast this afternoon partly to mostly cloudy a chance of showers and thunderstorms highs in the 80s and last report Rochester 82 loose 63 the Twin Cities 75. I'm Tim pug Meyer, Minnesota Public Radio. All right. Thanks to him 27 minutes before twelve in this is midday on Minnesota Public Radio reminder over the noon hour. We're going to rebroadcast a program that we put on last month featuring the legendary actor Hume Cronyn one of the original Guthrie Theater actors. He was at the Guthrie last month as part of the Guthrie's 40th anniversary celebration really a great conversation with artistic director Joe Dowling talking about the old days at the Guthrie and about human cronin's career Hume Cronyn passed away over the weekend and we thought that we would be rebroadcast that program today give you one last chance to hear from him. I think you'll find that quite interesting and entertaining so that's coming up over the noon hour. That's our we're talking with former Minnesota. Senator, Eugene McCarthy about presidential politics and whatever you'd like to talk with the former Senator about again our Twin City area number six, five. One two, two seven six thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight J your question, please actually I have no question. I just wanted to say Senator McCarthy that every time I hear you it you seem like a breath of fresh air. Well, thanks. I wanted to thank you for staying involved. (00:28:36) Well, thank you very much. It's a it's a hard time really for politicians. I have simply farther. I feel identification with somewhat but it seems almost unfair to us kind of stand aside when things are as difficult as they are. It's like this almost every day. There's something to sort of disappointed the post and the times have been going on about whether reporters what should be done about reporters that file of stories that are true. This may come up and I tried to Bradley when he was had to cook story really Jimmy story that she wrote which was made up and I said, you know, she she wrote a story was true, but she didn't have the right names. Generally, you have the right names and you don't have the story. I don't know which is the is the worst offense or the firing of raised the post was our times was looking for an excuse to get rid of him. So they say well we'll get rid of him and said do it in the name of Integrity of the press. It's just an excuse me, when you have two papers with such kind of qualifying conditions in their news programs. The the worst I know of it was a real eye Massacre which was Marsh 50s or 17th and 68 and both carried stories about it. What they said was the two companies of American soldiers and surrounded a hundred and twenty-eight Vietcong. Held them while they were killed by helicopter fire. That was what was put out which was in fact the belie massacre and neither one of them has made an explanation as to why they did it or why they thought they were Justified and that's the really serious kind of misrepresentation and and abuse by the Press. (00:30:48) Does that happen a lot? You think kind of all I think you're right Irish reporting that misleads (00:30:55) people. Well, I think so. I have a very high regard for the Press is what they well it is what they'd print what they don't print it shouldn't happen, but it's involves two things. I think one they never should have let Goose paper go and television stations. Because he became dependent on television income. And their news programs at all have been affected by whether or not their work will be adversity criticized by the government which is or by the Federal Communications Commission. Which Kazakh economic control. Okay Graham in her autobiography said that she told her people to go easy on Cambodia because they might lose television stations and she said Richard Nixon to threaten to take away or television stations and she didn't want to disturb him to have him. So she said go easy on Cambodia. Will Cambodia was a pretty serious story to treat that way but that was that was her message and she also told him to go easy on On on the Kent State story because it might stir up the people while the people should have been stirred up by what happened at Kent State. It shouldn't have been covered up and that kind of operation you have a condition of the news to where you don't can't really trust any of it. You know, (00:32:34) do you think this is going to get worse this problem that you perceive? Is it going to get worse now that the Federal Communications Commission has opened the door to further consolidation in the news media. (00:32:44) Well, I think so. Yeah, I think so. The only way you can really operate to affect freedom of speech is too you can't set up a new group to decide who's going to decide you have to have as many sources as possible. So every time the Consolidated Network or a new network why you've reduced the operation of free speech because somebody else no matter who it is. Would have a different point of view from Rudolph Murdoch. And I think I think it's worse (00:33:21) back to the presidential candidates are caller called in Senator. I had to hang up because they had a bad cell phone but wanted to know what you think about all the millionaires are specifically millionaire Democrats running for president question being can they actually represent the people or as politics just become a rich man's game or rich (00:33:45) person's. Well, it's been coming on when I was there that Congress was be especially decided was beginning to fill up with with Millionaires and with people who were subjects of Foundations and and trust funds that had been set up for we had a couple of candy men there Brock was there we had plywood heirs we had Morton salt and family guys, like several Kennedy's and several tasks that it was it was a it was a he but it's worse now. Yeah, it's worth it because someone who doesn't have money can't really compete it used to be you could have you could get money from Clement stone, for example, or someone else and use it for political purposes. Now the limitations principally because of John Gardner I said to John Gardner had been consulted by Jefferson when he was writing the Declaration of Independence and Jefferson said, I like to sending a pleasure lives our fortunes and our sacred honor and God you would say why don't you just pledged your lives and your sacred honor and up to (00:35:07) $1,000 former head of the common cause with John (00:35:11) Garcia. This is good news common. Cause is not collecting very much money. They think they may collapse So that would be 4 it'd be an improvement (00:35:20) money aside are the best candidates running for president these days (00:35:25) or I don't know. (00:35:28) Is that the kind of thing where you know, otherwise well-qualified people who would actually be good presidents, you know just don't get involved. Don't run. (00:35:38) Well, I guess is more difficult to do it and it's easier for people with a lot of money if they want to spend it and it just has been become more prominent and more more customary almost customary since the passage of the federal election law of 73 and 74 was bound to happen. You just I've been an advocate the restoration of Polo is a game for the rich. They don't have anything to do in October (00:36:16) Leo now your question, please. Oh, well, I'm it's an honor to talk to you sir. When our oldest daughter was at Macalester. She got on a bus and went to Wisconsin to campaign for you and he was a had a Major at Macalester wonder where they were for Meto and political science. Oh, yes, and she went on to in Vista ended up in Kansas city is now America where I understand but she got her Master's in public administration working days and going to school nights and so on and we hold her up as and some others of the things you can accomplish if you want to but we had wall-to-wall college students here and they had to go to a peace March before at the Capitol before they could come out and help us plant trees and so on and when she was 14, we were in Washington and Dirksen who I admire so because getting in an elevator and Goldwater is speaking on the floor and I'm free came and talked to us afterwards about civil rights and it's pretty heady stuff for young people who want to come back and work in DC but she's changed her mind on that. But I really think that the campaign should be shorter. I think people go ahead nauseam. That's too much and I don't know why we can't do like the brief doing shorten the campaigns. (00:37:33) Well, we could do it and you're right you do these ridiculously keep advancing the date of the election and of the beginning of campaigning when I first ran in 48 Harry Truman was running and he didn't start his campaign until Labor Day. Which was about three months before the election itself. We kind of knew he was going to be at you had to Convention but it really it was accepted that you didn't campaign until Labor Day, of (00:38:02) course even by 1968. If memory serves right you announced for president about a year before the election. Did you (00:38:08) not know? I don't know in January that I was going to run in the in the primary in New Hampshire. Okay. So I really didn't announce except you were about three or four months before the first primary. Mmm. (00:38:25) Let's go to the back to the phones Donald your question, please. Hello Sue McCarthy. I just want to say I've admired you since 1968 and I wanted to know my number of my friends and I and students a Minefield at the current unelected president in the White House is probably the worst president we've ever had for the last hundred years. Would you agree with that? I'll just take my answer. (00:38:49) Well, I don't know about a hundred years, but he's one of the worst of a bad lot to do probably the last six or seven and part of it is I think that he's not illegal president. He's like a pretender and I think we will notice if we have more experience was Pretenders that or even watching Bush operate that they're quite disrespectful of Law. And especially if Traditions such as the function of the Supreme Court instead of the elections that he's he's really there because of the five Supreme Court to members of the Florida winner-take-all rules and and the votes of refugees from Cuba and from the New York income (00:39:44) tax. He has been a George w-- Bush given lots of credit for the way. He received kind of rallied the country after the September 11th attack. Do you share in the enthusiasm for how he handled that situation? (00:39:57) I don't think anyone could have failed badly country was to it was such an affront to the sovereignty of the country ready one. Could have been a good president under those (00:40:08) circumstances did that event fundamentally change America? We always hear that. We were a change Nation (00:40:16) now. Well, I don't know, you know, they say things like that didn't you say it often enough? So it's accepted as being truthful. I think the Americans responded as any anyone would have expected them to and they're still what they were before because they were they were solid persons before to say that this experience all of a sudden we became responsible to became became patriotic is not since the patriotism in America. So strong that a president has to be very careful not to not to exploit it. (00:40:50) Do you think it they attack of September 11th? Properly serves as a justification for the change in foreign policy that we witnessed. I don't think you did ministration has repeatedly talked about. Well, we have a new threat now we need to deal with these things (00:41:07) differently. You had to have a strong response, but it had to be much more restricted and directed than what they're attributing it to know that there was bound to be in property. a retaliation of some kind so far as you could but to say we're going to have war and declare war on whole Nations before we really made an effort either through International efforts are our own to rectify or establish some Positioning provoked by 9/11 was too much you don't and just by says I could declare war, you know, well this say against V against Iraq is not really a war with no, you can't find the enemy or is weapons. But you declared a war then you impose wartime regulations on the country de tocqueville says that's what happens at the freedoms that you say you're going to secure for people by fighting for them have the effect of reducing your own Freedom, which is what is Homefront stuff is all about and attorney general making up rules and and and attributing everything out of wartime. (00:42:34) How does this compare in your mind the current atmosphere compared with the litha Red Scare days the Are theism of the early (00:42:43) 50s. Well, it's terrorism is the substitute. For what was anti-communism than the Atacama engine is sort of gone once Russia Russian Communism collapsed why? The same people who were concerned about Russian Communists were concerned about terrorism. And you know, it's curious we We practice more terror than probably any major Nation from its 1700 1800. We were terrorized the black people first as slaves and then afterwards just to Simply American blacks and the methods used to contain and control them were essentially terroristic burning churches burning schools bombing people hanging them. Lynching views even on the streets and the second terrorism was was of the different scale. It was it was implicit in our continuous build up of nuclear weapons Beyond any particular need for situation. You can Define until we had supposedly enough nuclear bombs to defeat the Russians 30 times. Well that meant you had some stuff left over for 902 non-committed Nations and and we exercise the terroristic Force One by the number of bombs. We had and secondly by The Continuous Improvement of the bombs until we special we get finally got down to the neutron bomb which was considered Superior because it just killed people it didn't destroy buildings and The Advocates of that bomb said this is very will be a real deterred because We'll be afraid we'll use it because it doesn't destroy buildings. (00:44:42) That doesn't it doesn't you know, Uh sama Bin Laden Al Qaeda don't they pose a genuine threat to you know, she'll be here in your (00:44:49) classroom, but you go after him but you do you do it was secret agents and you do it with real strikes with you find out where they are, but you don't start. Destroying whole Nations and then say we're going into nation-building. We haven't had much success of nation-building as I said, we've had 40 years to reconstruct Cuba. And nothing has happened. It's still outlawed. We tried we tried to construct a government of community in South Vietnam. That didn't work. It has really worked in in Korea. And here we have nothing but a record of failure to build a nation. We cannot even destroy them in the case of Cuba. We have been able to destroy it. So here we're going to reconstruct a much more complicated or construct. So he in a much more complicated cultural and political and religious situation (00:45:50) Ron. Now your question for Senator McCarthy. Yes, I followed the Senators distinguished career all the way from st. John's University to Washington and I have a question in going back and looking at LBJ and Vietnam and the Gulf of Tonkin. Do you see a parallel there with the George? (00:46:13) Push in the way that there was (00:46:16) possibly some deception (00:46:17) going on and (00:46:19) could you compare LBJ and George Bush (00:46:23) in with with with your vast experience? Well, I think it's not just the LBJ and Bush. It's an attitude that's been developed by the military people that they don't have to tell the truth. And so Linden was able to propagate the talking Gulf resolution real matter of this misrepresentation and the same process has been followed by Bush and it's almost accepted as institutional now that you can expect the military to lie to the public (00:47:06) isn't that what but isn't the present supposed to serve and the civilian leadership supposed to serve as a check on the (00:47:12) military. Well used to be the way but it's what the tocqueville talked about. And what island are talked about is you get the military. That has more power than it needs for any military action. It begins intrude itself and impose itself upon civil society. And that's what's happened to (00:47:32) us collar before I wanted to know who you thought was the worst president. I'm interested. Who's the best president? (00:47:38) Well, I've still gotta stand with Harry Truman the ones that I served under him and he knew he knew what he was Harry Truman and he knew when he was president. From that time on has been confusion of the two roles presidents forgot that they were what they what they were as persons and acted as though they could do almost anything as president. (00:48:03) How did he end up so wildly unpopular when he left the time he left office. He was way down in the polls now his stock I guess has gone up dramatically with the historians over (00:48:15) time. Well, he has some faults. There are some paintings would but generally was pretty good. Mmm, under difficult circumstances not just the circumstances, but the way he came into power and he did very well following Roosevelt why he was right under mattock. and then facing Eisenhower who was You know hero and everything else. But he did pretty well. I was like Harry because his language was pretty decent Harry never wanted anybody and said, he was the best man. He says he's a good man. Or very good man or damn good man, but he never said he was best or better. He never applied to Blue Ribbon committee and he played a committee and we used to say good. It's not a blue ribbon committee. It's a brown ribbon committee, which is what you get for bringing your horse to the race was from that time. It's been nothing but the greatest And it's misleading as big misconception is clouds people basis for judgments, you know. (00:49:30) We don't have a lot of time left but we were talking about presidential candidates. And the rest President Bush will be going into the election campaign here with extraordinarily High approval ratings. Is there any reason to believe he's he won't be (00:49:46) re-elected. Well, I think there's a number of good reasons why I should not be re-elected with whether there be accepted or not. I don't know that depends on what the Democrats are offering in place over him and maybe they'll say we could run the war better that he has and nothing nothing indicates that they wouldn't do (00:50:04) that seems to be a fissure Hmong Democrats as to whether or not to stake out a real liberal position. If you will or more of a moderate position, do you see it breaking down that way if you have four Democrats, I (00:50:17) don't think they're putting in a deadiy kind of context either of history or of intellectual judgment on the war on the role of America. And until they do that. Why what you're going to have is this catches can catch such as what we have now day-to-day and Faith related to politics and you know face related religion and Faith related social welfare programs and attorney general who's sort of the chief Apostle of conservatism, which is now presented almost as a religion, but we had the same sort of thing in the 52 election when Eisenhower ran, you know, they they said that the Democrats are agents of the devil and they were fighting against the Crusader and against God and put the chains of pledge of allegiance and had required money to carry in God we trust and and something about it was it was a God thing in the post office to that promise better delivery, but the doll campaign the other God flow to put a God's float in the / in inaugural parade and said we've figured with a sudden God we trust on the money that it was not a vote of confidence in George Humphrey who was the Secretary of the Treasury and it just got everything confused and same thing is shaping up now, even though I don't have religion with reference and nuclear weapons who told president of Pakistan 25 years ago against was said Pakistan had to have a nuclear bomb because Islam that time was the only religion that didn't have the bomb. All they had was Allah. Had the Christians had lots of bombs the other day Israelites and Joe had Jehovah and and they had nuclear bombs and the Hindus had a bomb and Buddhist had a bomb Buddhist had a bomb, but they didn't have a missile which was kind of a representative of their religion is one of intensity. You didn't need to deliver just be and this is all come feeding back into the into the politics of our time and I don't think the Democrats are making a distinctions they are too. (00:52:51) Big picture stuff is what they should be talking about. Well, sir, big picture things (00:52:55) they well least. Yeah. I don't know. What a Buddhist is (00:53:00) Center. We have to leave it there we're out of time. But thank you so much for coming and have a great visit Bucharest for your visit here and hope you will be back again. When you come back every (00:53:09) bad. He'll look for you and I come back. Okay. (00:53:11) Thanks a lot. Former Minnesota. Senator, Eugene McCarthy joining us this first hour of our midday program reminder that this program and all of our programs are available on our website. If you'd like to listen to it again, our web address is Minnesota Public Radio dot-org. We're going to break for some news headlines and then rebroadcast program featuring the legendary Guthrie actor Hume Cronyn who passed away on Sunday great conversation that was recorded at the Guthrie Cronin and Joe Dowling that's coming up after the news.