(00:00:06) And good morning. Welcome to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us. Well our coverage of the war continues today on Minnesota Public Radio. This are will keep you posted on any major developments and an over the noon hour. We'll have live coverage from the BBC but we've been joined this first our midday by a man who brings a unique perspective to this story former Minnesota. Senator, Eugene McCarthy 35 years ago this month at the height of the Vietnam War Senator McCarthy nearly defeated incumbent President Lyndon Johnson in the New Hampshire Democratic presidential primary McCarthy's showing electrified the anti-war movement helped convince Robert Kennedy to enter the race and led to lbj's decision not to seek re-election. When all was said and done Senator Eugene McCarthy did not win the Democratic nomination for president. Fellow Minnesotan Hubert Humphrey did and Senator McCarthy himself decided two years later not Seek re-election to the US Senate but he has not disappeared from public view Eugene McCarthy ran several more times for president as both a Democrat and independent. He has regularly spoken out on public issues and he's written several books essays and poetry. What's more in recent years. He's been good enough to join us here on midday when he's back in Minnesota from his home in Virginia, and he is here today to talk about the war politics whatever else you might be interested in. So if you have a question or a comment for former, Minnesota senator Eugene McCarthy, give us a call here Twin City area number is 6512276 thousand 6512276 thousand. Our toll-free line is 1-800-222-8477 are a now a happy birthday in advance. 87 years old come this Saturday. Are you still celebrating or no? I'm not going to celebrate until it and I didn't I don't think I'll celebrate (00:01:58) them. Yeah, you quit I could like sort of like your insurance policy. You could have even birthday celebrations that if you don't have to pay more premiums (00:02:10) you had some tough medical problems a few years ago, but you look good. Now do you feel (00:02:14) okay? Yeah, I feel pretty good kind of weak. But I feel all right. Hmm. They say they're treating unidentified symptoms which makes it easy to explain what's wrong with you when people say what are you are utilized a lot of unidentified symptoms and and they don't know how to treat them. So they say whenever we give you medicine we give you we what we know to be the medicine that counteracts bad reactions (00:02:44) kind of covers the Waterfront and identified symptom. That's right. Well, I'm wondering in General Sir. What are you make of the current world situation? We're at War again. (00:02:58) Well, I don't know what you make of it is it's been such a strange War. I mean we were in a position to kind of win something there 10 years ago or have the Arabs the Arab League win something. We walked away from ten years later. We're back on the Valley of the Tigris River again. And it Gary it's sort of the problem of war in a democracy. I guess and It's Complicated by some of the things in our in the structure of our government the two term limitation. For example, you have to have a policy that works in two terms. Otherwise, you're out of it and somebody else's in in in England if you What to bring down the government you bring it down here, you've got it for four or eight to four years and was the second term eight years and the result has been high instability. I think in terms of policy and program. (00:03:57) There are some people who say that that you know, that this war represents a major change in the u.s. Approach to the world terms of a kind of pre-emptive war in terms of a willingness to forge ahead even without the support of many of our traditional major allies in the grass. Do you see it that way? (00:04:21) Well, most of these other rotary likes horses. We got even Vietnam were really initiated by other nations and we came in and support of the French for example in Vietnam. We came into World War II and support in support of England and the European countries and we came in support of World War One this time we initiate it so it puts us in an altogether different perspective. We're asking people to help us and which is our war and I don't know. They talk Phil said the problem with democracy is they always come into a war too late and stay too long as you look at the ward out. It may well be too long. No way to get out now. It's ours. (00:05:12) Hmm But the argument I think is that the u.s. Now unlike in the past the US and joys of unusual so position in the world kind of the lone superpower and that we have a special obligation as a result to tidy up some of the the nasty things going on in the (00:05:36) world. Well, I think that's a possibility but question how you tied it up, you know, just bomb it some more Or send in troops or have a larger Navy. It hasn't proved itself as a technology. I don't know why I rented a worth their say rumsfeld's policies not being supported by the re I don't know what Rumsfeld policy is. I was thinking I'd be a national policy, which is Secretary of Defense would be carrying out but it's all different is like India Darwin Johnson, we had a tax cut on the way before we got deeply involved in we're taking like to take it off we pass in the Senate it took off the communications tax among some other taxes, then the war dragged on and became more and more expensive and Johnson asked us to repeat not to repeat but to back up on our commitment so it can you call me. I was a finance committee answered. okay, when you vote to repeal what we asked you to do six months ago, this was the administration saying the cost of the war and I said I said I would I said, you know, it was kind of ludicrous is the Repeal had been pretty pretty questionable when it took place the Moorhead and gone so far as that, they were not admitting that it was a war yet. And I said, well, I give him a pen that they gave me for voting for it and had it in closing in permanent plastic. I said my I gave it to the lobbyists for the telephone company because he lobbied to have the tax repealed. I wanted back on I said if he can give me the pen get it out of the plastic part of the plastic or I'll send it back to you and give you my vote but it is I guess what you get into these kind of emergency taxes all kinds of funny things happen. (00:07:46) You are had predicted j-just a month or so ago that when all was said and done there wouldn't be a war. What do you suppose happened in your (00:07:56) mind really isn't a war. We haven't even identified the enemy yet except feeling television. I don't worry Vietnam was was a real war you thought it was regular weapons and in a normal fashion, but it wasn't ever protected. It was going to be over in two weeks or 10 days or three weeks or four weeks. It was it was programmed like War this is not program like a were they call it that and we shouldn't let him call it a war call it something else and the Nixon people came up with the incursion to kind of explain what they were going to do in Cambodia. So if you have a different kind of action, you don't call it something else and then judge it bystanders apply to do a war. And if you do, they're not going to work. That's where we are. Now (00:08:50) our guest this hour is former Minnesota. Senator Eugene McCarthy, and he has joined us to share his thoughts on the issues of the day. If you would like to join our conversation, give us a call six five one two, two seven six thousand 6512276 thousand. Our toll-free line is her, excuse me 1-800 to for 22828 Steve your question, please. (00:09:13) Yes. Thank you the honor to talk to you for a Senator McCarthy. I wanted to ask you about how you dealt during the 60s with accusations of being unpatriotic for opposing the War. I notice a lot of the pro-war rallies are accusing people who opposed the war being unpatriotic yet at the anti-war rallies that I've been at. I've seen many many veterans of past Wars openly protesting this present war. I've seen the family of the Baltimore Marine who died accusing President Bush of spa. During basically and oil war and being very angry publicly and I wonder how these pro-war people respond to the veterans when they opposed the war when they say, oh, they're unpatriotic or what. I mean, it seems to me as the very cheap shot kind of way of dealing with the anti-war movement and I'd like to know how it was dealt with during the 60s. And you know, what you think is a veteran's now coming back and protesting the war. Okay. (00:10:14) Well, you're quite right. That is that's the way it happened. We were accused of being unpatriotic and it was one of the things you had to face up to if you took on the war, but it's been a mark of attack in practically every war we've had to accuse those who disagree with of being unpatriotic and almost has begun religious this time. It's kind of a Mark of Faith of some sort of religious commitment, which would never been asked to face up to before So there is a poor excuse of a bad excuse to use it as a basis for criticism, but it's pretty hard to know what you do and especially in this whatever it is. You don't have we were lucky in a way that they were the elections came along early in 68 so you could make the cat in the political campaign the testing ground now it's the year and a half two years before the next presidential elections, which means that I think the criticism is likely to be more irrelevant how so because it was no way to settle it you can't you could protest the war but what do you what do you post it is it's not there to be protested and you got to wait two years to get any kind of tired or opposition or defense. (00:11:42) I'm curious as Senator both. They the people who are opposed to the war and those who would be more supportive of the president's policies both say why we support the troops we support the troops bot or we support the troops. And what is it? What does that mean to you? (00:11:58) I don't know what it means because every hole every record of every war and even those who serve been protests that maybe in a few people who would vote against the defense Appropriations, but I never did and I was one of the foremost critics we we gave them what they asked for we suggested that they should not send in as many troops as they were sending in but there was always there was always the financial support the military support was there so it's not a fair. It's not a fair criticism is that isn't tested Then you get it while you discourage them and all that kind of stuff do psychological stuff which nobody understands. You don't linen would say, you know going to nail them coonskin to the barn door heard people cut and run and it had a lot of Texas images about anyone who opposed the war and what's a but the record doesn't show that other the few people would vote against Appropriations. But but the main criticism was not it was not justified. We were not cutting off arms. We were inventing new arms or sending in more troops at the same time. We were saying cut it (00:13:15) out Congress voted overwhelmingly last fall to authorize the use of force against Iraq. Do you believe that that should Congress have an even bigger role to play here in deciding whether to commit (00:13:29) troops? Well Gary the Senate should constitutional intent was The defendant had a special responsibility for war and for international policy. It was the only real challenge that that is viable unless you started a cut-off Appropriations and so on and there's no pressure on members usually have no defense the Pentagon can say anything it wants to almost about how war is going. And if you're alone Congressman or Senator, you're standing out there say well, who are you to stand against the I guess the defense department against the soldiers against the president against the administration and against the press against the New York Times as for the war. So you taking on the New York Times and Frankie all the institutions of the government of society. It's all about I think we're actually kind of have a war being carried out under the under the direction and was the support of the military industrial complex. Which Eisenhower said was coming and we stay tocqueville said was coming and it's harder to stand against that if you're a member of Congress there was sand against it even in 68 (00:15:00) Larry or question for Senator (00:15:01) McCarthy. Yes, what question regards both the Vietnam War and the first world war the first call for know the current War. He mentioned the military industrial complex most specifically the oil industry and their interest in even the Vietnam War. There was a brigadier general who marched into Army intelligence of Saigon during the Vietnam war and demanded to know what the heck is true for dying for a night. He was told that was for a (00:15:26) while. Well, there's oil in Southeastern (00:15:29) Asia, right? And and the current where I believe is predominantly about war and the other reasons that we hear about are just protects our masquerade for what we what they're really there (00:15:41) for Center. Well, I think there are other reasons, but but There is an element of interest in oil it was sort of raised in the Desert Storm warm by Baker who said this war which involves jobs and Baker is military industrial complex of several was one in a specially representing oil so that I think there's some some element of Truth in in what's being said (00:16:16) in terms of talking about this. So this issue of oil and so on could the United States afford to have somebody like Saddam Hussein essentially control a large part of the world's oil supply given how dependent the u.s. Is on on oil and not just the United States but all of the all of the countries the world really (00:16:40) well, I think we could get along but the fact is it in the set? The Vietnam War in Southeastern Asian, the question while was an important element in the whole picture in the United States kind of took it upon herself when it was good. It was going to defend all these countries that they defensive oil supplies was one of the things we were concerned about it will we don't want you to build nuclear plants. So we will try to protect your oil supplies it work two ways one helping the consumers and the other helping the producers the OPEC people. So it's a factor. It's a They just played everything in the George Bush the first parade after he came back except along Trace. They should have put a few of them in line saying this was one of our minor interest but we don't want to put it in the parade (00:17:42) down. Now your question for Senator McCarthy (00:17:45) McCarthy being having followed your career for over a half century. I'm wanted to get your opinion on the remarks of Senator daschle made just before we went into Iraq regarding the quote utter failure of the Diplomatic process that made by Senator daschle. Is that an error in judgment on Senator? Daschle Park? We're just poor timing. What's your thought? (00:18:09) Well, I could not understand or some of the Non military aspects that went into the setting up for the second round of the war against. Against sit down. We were in a position to and have you all the Arabs practically involved in opposition to his first military Venture and we walked away from it and you start all over and it's been 10 years of new diplomacy and most of it has been (00:18:46) disastrous. Do you think how serious do you think the the rupture if if that's the right word to use or well how serious do you think it is that there has been such a public dispute between the United States and some of its traditional major allies Germany brought France now Russia as well. Is that a big deal or is that something that the diplomats will paper over (00:19:16) soon? Well, we've never tested whether or not we're going to use the United Nations in a diplomatic complex as difficult as this one is and I don't think it's it's properly structured to use it to be used this way. It should if you're going to do it there ought to be some changes made in the USL. So it was kind of a taken on more than they were designed to take on and consequently expect some some trouble kind of trouble were having but as far as the oil is concerned the Japanese and the Germans and the English to some extent all have an interest in it, which goes beyond what it might be under the United Nations and what ought to be taken into account in the whole contemplation of the war. So needed we got very well designed to fight War de tocqueville says democracies. We just shouldn't get into war. The only way out is the There is no way up (00:20:27) un was was built right after World War Two as it does it need to be substantially changed given the fact we're in a whole new century now. (00:20:38) Well, I think I think there is a need for substantial change, you know and what entry and redefining it--and setting limits on commitment and how the commitments are established and how they're carried out because this is haphazard (00:20:55) should have more or less power if you will or authority to govern World Affair. (00:21:03) Well, I think it ought to be defined as it's too wide open see what will you can interfere when you want to and need don't interfere if you don't want to and the The idea Gary sorta was the had kind of three levels of commitment one kind of our for our state department, which is allowed for a lot of manipulation. To is diplomatic action and the third was we're going to be really better by conforming to what the United Nations asked us to do and it's all blown up now. Nobody knows where we're most responsible. Renee told Marshall plans are United Nations who treaties executive orders executive agreements until it's almost unlimited responsibility (00:22:05) fair to say that those many of those post-world War Two institutions have the may have outlived their usefulness. (00:22:14) Well, I think they're they're really they're still needed but what they don't conform to reality the occasion Russia created altogether different European American relationship, but it still stands as we have already accommodated un operation of self to to the decline of communism. The same is true of NATO. We don't know what to do with NATO. You know North Atlantic tree was you put a rush in I guess you could include Russia for more masks or something like that, but it is wholly foreign to what we were thinking about when we when we started to rearrange things (00:23:01) are talking this hour with former Minnesota. Senator former presidential candidate Eugene McCarthy. He is back here in Minnesota from his home in Virginia and has been good enough to come by our midday program today to talk about current events public policy issues. Whatever you'd like to talk about. Give us a call here at 6512276 thousand 6512276 thousand or toll free line is 1-800-218-4243 INS in a couple of minutes programming is supported by play ball the new exhibit at the Minnesota History Center chronicling baseball in the state with authentic twins Saints and Miller's memorabilia open to the public March 22nd through At the History (00:23:43) Center days of the Saddam Hussein regime are (00:23:48) numbered. We suspect a very large number of children might not survive this conflict. I want to support the troops (00:23:59) because you know, they're following orders and they're protecting this country. We will accept no outcome. But Victory, (00:24:07) I'm Lorna Benson for the latest on the war with the rock tune into all things considered weekdays at 3:00 on Minnesota Public Radio. Just a reminder will be going off live to the BBC at noon today to catch up on all the latest news as well right now some news headlines. And here's got a Cunningham grunt. Thanks, Gary. Good morning, Iraq, state-run. Television has carried what it says is a message from Saddam Hussein. The TV report today says Iraqi leader is urging the cheese of tribes and clans in his country to step up the fight against Allied Forces Saddam Hussein reportedly promises. The Allies will flee because quote they are away from home. And because they are aggressors President Bush is asking Congress to quickly approve his request for nearly seventy five billion dollars to help fund the war in Iraq at the Pentagon today. Bush says, he doesn't know how long the War will last but that it will end the Iraqi regime the president spending request is designed to cover the cost of roughly 30 days of fighting plus moving a huge Force Halfway Around. The World also included is money for Homeland Security 80 US allies and the start of post-war rebuilding efforts in Iraq. Another incident of a u.s. Patriot missile battery locking on the wrong target. The US military says an American fighter jet fired on a u.s. Patriot battery in Iraq yesterday after the batteries radar locked on the plane on Sunday a similar battery shot down a British aircraft a US Commander says winds sandstorms and thunderstorms have been hampering some missions for the Allied Forces in Iraq u.s. Commanders are also praising British troops for securing the Kia recce Port of uncas are the first remains of American troops killed in the war in Iraq arrived back in the u.s. Early today two bodies were flown to Dover Air Force Base in Delaware. The base is home to the defense Department's biggest Mortuary in Regional news the opening of the Season on the Mississippi River in the Winona area could be only a few hours away the nearest up bound towboat move through Lock and Dam number eight south of a cross at 9:00 this morning. The Jacob Michael Eckstein is pushing 9 barges last year the first toe arrived in Winona on March 16th a forecast for Minnesota calls for partly sunny skies Statewide with a slight chance of afternoon showers in the southwest highs today ranging from 47 in the north to near 58 in the southwest right now in Sioux Falls. It's sunny and 50 one more had reports Fair skies and 43 some clouds in Duluth and 38 and in the Twin Cities Sunshine a temperature of 47 Gary. That's a look at the latest news. All right. Thanks Greta. It's about all 27 minutes now before noon. This is midday on Minnesota Public Radio and our guest this our former Minnesota. Senator, Eugene McCarthy who really made American history in 1968 changed American history in 1968 campaign for the presidency largely. On the on the on a platform of opposition to the Vietnam War and he has joined us today to talk about the current world situation. Again. If you have a question for Senator McCarthy, give us a call six five one two, two seven six thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight Ruth your question for Senator McCarthy. (00:27:17) Yes. Thank you senator for sharing your Insight here with us in Minnesota. There are many of us in the state that want to support this war and we're dealing with trying to support it and then being very suspicious at the same time particularly. When we learn that the vice president's former oil company has received contracts for the oil wells in southern Iraq. I'd like to hear your take on it. Thank you, sir. (00:27:46) Well, it's a Curious Thing de tocqueville talks about the problem of Democracies they were fighting to establish it somewhere but you destroy your own in the process of what you're what you're trying to do for other people you undo in your own country or any your own laws. And and I think that's essentially what we're caught in in all of these new protective actions that are being taken and thing like Cheney. I don't understand how it was taught. It is tolerated because it's so clearly it seems to be a conflict of interest as you treat the vice president differently from what way you treat other people or Do you just continue to do what actually the Bush Administration? he sort of like a an intruder he doesn't care whether what he does is legal or traditional or not. He just goes ahead and does it and there's nothing you can do about unless you call out the Air Force or the Army and they're busy and I don't know half of half a dozen of our institutions have been not destroyed. But undercut the Supreme Court has been corrupted. The Army has been corrupted. The vice presidential office has been corrupted. And Bush almost said oh, what are you going to do about it? You know how you what are you going to do to be put me in jail? If not, you just go right ahead. And as I said to Gary earlier that we were lucky in 68 as we had a presidential election where we could put the president to the test. There's no there's no such opportunity now and the administration of the Attorney General seemed to say well we'll just run this the way we want to and you see what happens when the next election comes wrong. And and the Shady is the Grocer's example, I think is is Shaney. You should really shouldn't have to give that much away of constitutional law and government just to get shady as vice president (00:30:15) setting aside vice president Cheney's situation for a moment. Don't you think though Center in the argument that that you that that's made is that with the attack direct attack on the United States on September 11th, 2001 really much has changed and we simply cannot operate as we used to operate. We can't make the same assumptions. In fact, the president said the other recently that he might think entirely differently about Iraq had September 11th not occurred. But once that happened you have to adjust your thinking. (00:30:52) Why did you do that? That is it is a difference between Vietnam Vietnam thing. You didn't have any event comparable to one in Iraq. We were not really attacked before Vietnam. We were just came in to support French colonialism and oil and in this case, there's a provocation and it makes it very more difficult to stand up and defend it to the the question was just funny thing is is there a proportion between what we're doing and what the bombing called for how much do you do to sort of halfway undo something? which is almost unrelated to the to the developments we got into the war itself just do is destroy a whole country because because somebody bomb these two buildings and you know, we don't have a very good record on on terrorism. We terrorize the black of America for 400 years in slavery and a large element of the control of slate of the wax was was terrorism. I read a review of a book on lynching in this kind of relates to almost 5,000 people between about 1880 and the passage of the Civil Rights bill, (00:32:35) but does that horrible history? Should that paralyze our our responsibility (00:32:42) should make us look at it twice at least to be aware of this has happened and the whole unreasonable development of nuclear weapons both of them in kind of retro of weapon and and the quality of them. Was it was attacked on our part of terrorizing people say look if you don't behave will bomb you. And early thrust of justifying The increased production of nuclear weapons was all inside of going to threaten you and and when they moved from the numbers and from the atomics of the hydrogen to the neutron bomb, the argument for each Improvement was that the people will be more afraid of us now than they were before it wasn't when all we had were these other bombs and we I say this we have to take in terms of history and what the reaction of these people is. They look for we in do it tell me did he was an Arab and why should it be this response? But I think it had to be a strong response on Bush's part, but they don't even know where it stops (00:34:01) Lori your question, (00:34:03) please well, thanks for taking my call. It's great to hear the senator again. My comment is about the Can I see between the anti-war movement now and during the Vietnam era during Vietnam, we had leadership at the top who helped us to oppose. The war this seems much more to me to be a Grassroots movement. Senator Dayton is opposed to the war but we don't really have any spokespeople in the Senate and the other thing is the difference in age the protesters I see tend to be much older. I think college kids now are getting involved but the protesters I see are much older into their 70s 80s of them. So, I'd appreciate your comment on that. Thank you. (00:34:47) Well, you're quite right to the observation. I spoke to a group a couple of days ago here in I think the average age was 50 years at least and there weren't very many young people out. But in the protest of the street, the young people are well represented with their again. There is a sort of a petty on people are the military-industrial people are not that they're not any effective. They're thinking you have to realize most times people. That's the military. They just don't know what they are. But they aren't the first real sign of change was in 1947 when the Pentagon changed the name of its appropriation not from war department, which is what they were. The War World War II was fought under the war department in 47. They change the name of it to the Department of Defense. We don't have War now you have defense and the expedition was a lot easier to ask for money for defense and ask for it for war. For the next question you get to say, where's the war you got to have a war you pining for a war and the Army contracted with a think tank. It was run by Douglas aircraft in 1947 for a report on what it would take to impose an American piece on the world. There's nothing to do with oil and American piece on the world in the Pentagon was thinking in terms of plans why which we might Implement that they progressed on through unbelievable things McNamara defense department at a study made to establish a national religion for the armed services. it was like the tf-x you pick up your religion when you pick up your boots and left it behind when you left for services and and this is unification. And the last thing they did was really to do away with the draft. So it progressively the military forces and those who supported were insulated and separated from civilian control. (00:37:12) You think we should reinstitute the (00:37:13) draft. Why is that we should ever left it Jefferson said we should not have a volunteer army. We should have an army that that is chosen by lot and De tocqueville said the same thing (00:37:33) the other another thing that our caller pointed out was that there in her mind, there isn't like a spokesman and in many ways. You became that that spokesman in 1967-68 with your presidential campaign a a person that people could rally behind who are opposed to the war at the time zone. So forth somebody who was out there is there in your mind a need for somebody like that, you know, there are a lot of people who are opposed to this war is our need for somebody to stand up and say hey, I'm the guy or I'm the I'm the gal here who's ready to lead the (00:38:13) charge. Well, I think it would be helpful because the protest is 68. We're kind of drift. It could have been anyone else going to run but they would rally around they would have were ready to Rally around somebody from the Senate. As I said earlier, the Senate has a constitutional responsibility. I think for war is one of the special obligations and and in explaining myself. I said we tried to get the Senate itself to act and it wouldn't do it and I finally concluded that the only time we could do it was it was in the primaries? It didn't make that much difference. There were probably ten other Senators who could have done it, but they didn't and I think that what they need now is some we just got to take a chance and say look we're going we're going to talk about this. So I'm going to talk about but there's going to be a lag because there is no presidential election for two and a half (00:39:12) years. The Vietnam War of course went on for for several years (00:39:18) seventy two or three before I ended it but (00:39:21) okay during when you ran for president, it had been underway full scale as far as us involvement for you know, three four years and of course prior to that had a long while what about though the argument want to come back to this because the caller is this earlier this in this in this particular instance, and we've heard this from even from Of Congress many of whom voted against giving the president Authority the authority to use military force. They have argued that well, we certainly do not agree with the president's policy. We're not going to agree with it. We will criticize the president but for the meanwhile, I mean the war is underway the troops are in the field and we should keep our mouth shut for a little while and then let this get over with and then we can renew the debate. (00:40:08) Well, that was pretty much the same argument was being made in 68 and 67-65 and (00:40:18) but at that time, I mean there had been several years at rolled by and presumably you could have waited for yeah. (00:40:24) Yeah, that's right. Well, it's harder I think to do it in this year than it was in 68. There's some substance justification for the arguments that are made but the on the other hand the same old language is coming around you you don't challenge the government witness Rafael a war and we thought these were all made in Vietnam case of Linden said, you know, they cut and run and and Rush said we were causing joy and Hanoi and and there was kind of a shower of shells that you had to go through run, but it's society different orbit. what we're letting ourselves in for I think it's a clear example of the war which is supported by the industrial military complex that even Vietnam was and either you have to be ready to challenge it the minute it starts. Or else pick it up along the whales or otherwise wait for another presidential election. (00:41:36) Jim your question, please. (00:41:38) Thanks for the program Senator McCarthy. I just wanted you to comment on what you think of the constitutionality of the Patriot Act and I'll just listen off their thank you, sir. Alright, thanks you. (00:41:53) Well, I think it's unconstitutional but it's the sort of thing that happens every time you get into war the Constitutional protection her all wither away pretty fast. again, I I do like to quote the so cool because he thought about things in our Constitution that no one else has really talked about and one of which was that you in the name of protecting your Liberties you Prejudice them and lose them and he said that you what you get is a republic within the Republic and it doesn't pay any attention to the Constitution. It says look we're in danger. And so we change the law. Anyway, we have soon and and the Citizens for and the patriarch the Patriot Act and just just using the name. Is it excusable? Because they're Patriots on both sides, but to claim that your program is a patriotic program is indefensible. I think (00:43:00) Nancy are your question. Yeah. I think you guys are (00:43:03) kind of touching on what I'm thinking about that. I love your program. By the way. I want to know I called Senator Mark Dayton's office this morning and was told that he feels it's a time right now to support the troops. (00:43:18) No, that's the first (00:43:19) excuse and and that he won't speak out against it and you know you were talking there is nobody on the inside that is saying the vote they made in October was wrong. They should not have done that and and somehow we're getting the message that they're all thinking that but they're not saying anything and and this gets into the Patriot Patriot Act Two. I'm hearing in the news that nobody had time to read it yet. They pass. That law. I'd like to hear your comment on that. I'll take my answer after year. Thanks. (00:43:56) Well, I was in politics in the whole McCarthy period in the challenging to everyone who had an idea as being here (00:44:04) we should emphasize. This is Joe McCarthy. Well, yeah. (00:44:08) Well, there are two would (00:44:10) have four were younger younger folks who may get The McCarthys masseuse. What if you (00:44:15) had I debated Joe McCarthy in 52. I was in the house and the person running the program said, you know, the only reason we took you as we couldn't get anybody else and (00:44:27) and you have the same name. I might say that would have been a tough to debate a debate to moderate McCarthy Senator McCarthy. Now, it's your turn Senator McCarthy participated, but (00:44:41) I appeared with Minnesota two or three people. I knew all the horror of the on America. Activities Committee just to say look the this person is no communist and he's no threat to the Republic with was very little success and I was a House member of the time I said, we could tell the Communists in the Minnesota rallies that they didn't bring the Communist Manifesto. They brought Robert's Rules of Order and so their whole procedure was too abstract and it's almost that way today when I say, you know, the Patriots laws, Inexcusable, (00:45:27) I have to uh, before we run out of time. One thing I have for sure wanted to ask you about was the media coverage of the war. You have had over the years I suppose what could be called a kind of testy relationship with with some of the major news outlets. What do you make of this Live 24 hour a day 7 days a week coverage on the scene of a war as its unfolding. (00:45:56) I don't know how much it's controlled or how much they will allow its television. We really haven't if I am able to assess what effect has had it. Generally television eventually comes to support the establishment. The I almost every major newspaper in the country now has a television station depends on income from television to keep this business going. And she's keep that a keg I have in her book, which was loudly exclaims said she had told her people to go easy on Cambodia because she thought Richard Nixon might take away your television licences. This is a strange attitude for a free press a and the New York Times. On the seventies or eighties and Martian 68 is a true today of before day after the New Hampshire primary had a front page story about how to American companies who surround 228 Viet Viet Cong and and killed them in a pincer Movement by fire from helicopters. That was in fact. I'm Eli Massacre. The story was given to the New York Times and they gave it to us as a hundred and twenty-eight Body Count brought on by. American troops killing him are I guilty Vietcong troops. So I'm pretty jaded on anything military says when they get into it why? They don't tell you the truth and and they have the media that they'll tell you the truth because I don't like (00:47:53) is it better? I think there are like 500 reporters actually assigned to various military unit. So presumably they can see for themselves. What's happening. Is that as I could develop (00:48:07) - I don't know if they're seeing what they see is not controlled but on the experiences with Vietnam, I question everything. I see this authorized by the Army the distant in In a mood to deceive people that whether we get any better judgment, if people worse even worse he's and we have seen I don't know. I don't want to blame it on television. I thought it in 68 that the most effective media were the still life pictures in time and Life Magazine of high school graduations of people who died in Vietnam, but once you turn of War roofs, it's it's hard to control it and We've turned them loose I think (00:49:05) is there any way any way for let us say the administration decided at this point, you know, we really made a mistake. Nobody anticipates are going to say this of course, but let's say they did I mean is it as a practical matter anything they can do at this point to just stop and walk away from this. So (00:49:28) yeah, we finally did that in Henry Kissinger who got the Nobel Peace Prize for watching the end of the war he had advocated. Just walked away from it. They ready up stuff now about how they negotiated in Holland how clever they were and how they got people to agree to end but there was really nothing much to do about Vietnam, but walk away and that we could walk away from from from this one with some few precautions, but you really had to get to it before it got as far as it did I think Hmm once it started once it's were involved in community of got I don't know how many nine hundred thousand troops and some various movement. the military has got such an advantage in of us V and attention that almost have to be a president so he can do it after being defeated by the by the voters. (00:50:36) Do you think that the nation is in danger of becoming as divided bitterly divided as it was during the (00:50:44) my own sense is that it has its they haven't been knocking people down in the streets yet protests have been accepted and have been effective but they've been accepted. I think it's just maybe one of the things that carry over from Vietnam that the public says you have to demonstrate you have to protest that. You can't trust the media. You can't trust Congress and you can't trust the (00:51:17) administration. And people are more accepting of that. I think so, you (00:51:24) know. But it's kind of a bad size of means that the institutions of government are not working that there. You really a country like us can't conductors you'd say can't conduct its foreign and domestic policy on the basis of demonstrations and protests. Has to be some institutional responsive you got any difference to the elect a president. on the basis of the votes of five Supreme Court Justices and refugees from Cuba and from the New York income tax. You don't know what you're going to get out the government with that kind of a base (00:52:13) Center. We are out of time, but I want to appreciate you say that I really truly appreciate you coming by today and keep well. Okay, (00:52:22) opal. Well, I find more difficult. I had a much less difficulty making judgments on Vietnam and I have on this involvement yet. (00:52:33) Thank you, sir. Appreciate your coming in former Minnesota. Senator, Eugene McCarthy Journey joining us for this first hour of our midday program break here for station identification and then live coverage from the BBC programming is supported by Ecolab dedicated to improving cleaning and sanitation standards for leading Hospitality Healthcare and food processing customers worldwide on the web at Ecolab.com. Programming is supported by Twin City coops Federal Credit Union financing new and used auto loans in the Twin Cities information and rates online at www.canadianoutback.com bank, where you belong you're tuned to a 91.1 Kinder wfm Minneapolis. And st. Paul Sunny sky right now and it's 47 degrees in the Twin Cities Sunny to partly sunny the rest of this afternoon and it should hit the lower 50s for a high temperature tonight partly cloudy with a low in the low 30s, then tomorrow pretty much the same kind of weather partly cloudy, maybe a tad warmer with a high in the upper 50s, but the weather changes by Thursday, the Weather Service says that some rain and snow will move into the Twin City area temperatures will start dropping into the 40s and then the 30s and if you believe these long-range forecasts, you should know that over the weekend. It looks like the best will do for high temperature is in the upper 30s.