(00:00:00) Good morning with news from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm William wilcoxon cleanup operations begin today at a contaminated Beach along the st. Croix River. Asbestos was discovered along the shoreline in Lakeland last September but unfavorable weather and high water levels have delayed its removal. The material had been used as insulation Katie kalkan of the Minnesota Pollution Control agency says the site will be fully excavated to remove the contaminated soil. But a quarter to a third of an acre will be excavated in six inch lifts and then it will be examined to see if the contamination has been remediated or not. And then additional material taken as needed. Hilton says the operation should take three weeks. The mpca has named the owners of a nearby house as the party responsible for the contamination Qwest Communications says it expects to restate Financial reports for 1999 to 2001 because of accounting errors including overstated revenues company officials say the errors were related to telephone services and sales of optical capacity and And they declined to estimate how they will affect the books and did not say when a restatement of Revenue would be complete with a new school year approaching most teacher contracts have been settled in Minnesota the state school boards Association reports just 39 of the state's 341 school districts are still negotiating Elk River and Duluth are two of the largest districts that have not settled. The West Nile virus is spreading through Minnesota a horse was euthanized yesterday in Marshall after it began showing signs of illness the board of animal health said on Friday that for other horses in Minnesota were suspected of having the virus one in Roseau county has died. The virus is spread by mosquitoes partly to mostly sunny skies are forecast for Minnesota today highs in the 80s tonight some clouds developing near Lake Superior in the Twin Cities. Mostly sunny today high in the mid 80s. That's news from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm William wilcoxen programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by the doctors and nurses of at at Northwestern Hospital and the Minneapolis Heart Institute offering prevention care and management of heart disease Abbott Northwestern Hospital and the Minneapolis Heart (00:02:04) Institute Good morning, and welcome to midday. I'm Mike Edgerly. Gary. Eichten has the week off our guest. This hour is a Minnesota native poet and public servant who represented the state for 22 years 10 years in the US House and two terms in the US Senate. He ran for president three times his 1968 campaign for president unseated President Lyndon Johnson and altered the national political landscape Senator Eugene McCarthy. Welcome back to Minnesota Public Radio Mike. Welcome back sir and tell us what brings you back to Minnesota. Well, it doesn't take much to get me to come back but I got a little Restless campaign time, but specifically this time Jerry hating the circuit judges, I guess he's retiring as he sees me he's done that several times and his law clerks and I guess he had about 40 law clerks in the time he was On the bench and they were having a party for him. Now. If you've got to come back and say a few words, I'd nominated him for the bench back in Iran, 1961 or two. I guess it's been a good judge. Some of the things that we'll all you got left of your career is Jerry Haney and Miles Lord and they're both still around aren't they? Yeah miles is retired. He's practicing law. But Jerry you still wear serves on the circuit court and some capacity. We'd like to hear from you. If you have questions or comments for Senator McCarthy. Our telephone numbers are toll-free 1-800 to for to to 828 and then the metro area. The number is six five one two, two seven six thousand you were here in May of last year Senator McCarthy, I believe I think that's what they told me was the last time I was here. Yeah since then it's been quite a period for the country. The nation has undergone an attack that killed thousands of citizens we've gone to war in Afghanistan. The nation's economy is struggling and leaders at some of the country's biggest corporations are acknowledging that they lied and stole from their their own companies and their investors and I'm wondering if I could ask you what you make of this particular period in in u.s. History. Well, it's not surprising up my Well, I guess I've written these tenacity on almost every problem over the years but man named James Kent wrote a book on the United States Constitution in 1831 about the same time de tocqueville was here and he said we'd made a mistake in making it too easy to organize corporations. Well Way Beyond the common law and the Roman law And Paul Douglas and I in the senate about 18 1961 tried to get too excited to take up a pension programs because we knew they were either corrupt or danger of corruption. You have all that pension money lying around everybody wants that the corporation's wanted and unions wanted and we couldn't get any response and it's almost in here and I think you know kind of a Loosely organized corporate structures. You're going to have Corruption of the sky. It used to be that wasn't quite so bad to Savings and Loans were known for pretty bad. But the amounts in the modification and factor in dealing with these Enron and stuff is just beyond anything we'd ever. We'd ever seen I guess it was a fella named Campbell and Englishmen who ripped off people about 20 years ago, and they said he was so corrupt that the English didn't contemplate the couldn't even imagine it and I think it was a quantitative quantitative factor in Enron was so big that no one realized what how bad it could be so quickly. And I don't know Marshall mcluhan in one of his essays written a long time ago said they were competition is going to be for future intervals. And that's really it's competition for the attention of people and when you get doing that you can multiply your your you have a multiplier working for you and that's I think what it was running here. So you were not surprised at what happened with Enron, except only at the magnitude of the magnitude of it. Yeah, you know. we had similar things at the Campbell stuff was the Englishmen was the worst we'd had but Keating in the Savings and Loan and I used to say you could if they started giving money to Mother Teresa it was time to look after and keeping it was a big contributor to Mother Teresa even on the smaller scale good as always little suspicious of people who said I give money to the church there's a good Mother Teresa home for the sick poor something like that all of a sudden they had virtue our guests in this hour of midday and Senator Eugene McCarthy if you'd like to join us our numbers our toll-free 1-800 to for to 288 and in the Metro the number is six five one two two seven six thousand we have Ron in Hutchinson you're on with Senator McCarthy go ahead Ron are you there? There you (00:07:39) are. Okay. My question is Senator. Do you think the hysteria over terrorism now is similar to the hysteria that was over communism during your (00:07:52) time in the Senate? Well, the reports of comparison is somewhat different but the politics of it is being played about the same way as it was anti-communism was if you if you raise any question about how it happened or what might be done about it to their two things about I think the response one is to respond to the particular thing of of the trying to find a terrorist or the people who did New York. The other is to look to the reasons why terrorism has developed and what do you do about you? Don't go on just Prosecuting and pursuing the terrorists and at the same time you're allowing the old terrorism to continue or even creating new terrorists and even to suggest that We have kind of a mixed history of terrorism in this country. The American blacks lived under terrorist pressure for 300 years or more. And even when the Civil Rights Acts were being considered and even after there were terrorists devices used against the black people and others and there's been very little out of the administration. It was 30 years ago 40 years ago. I suppose after the end of World War Two Why we were respected around the world are this nation was we weren't subject to terrorism. So it's taken 30 years to get us into the situation. We're in and the basic disorder. I think you're probably take 30 years to get us out of him. What is the essential underpinning issue related to the terrorism that you've described as well old terrorism? Yeah apart from we've bombed somebody or something on almost every continent with the accepted as he of Australia and North America Central America South America Middle East Far East should be South Eastern countries and generally without doing it for because it particular offense against us, but because of some United Nations judgment or because in the case of Saddam why was oil and it's a very mixed record as to why we should be bombing the Vietnamese. I talked to Nate and we we don't understand why you're fighting us. We only we think you should be fighting us, but you are and their poets all wrote about it and they were puzzled as to why what why is this happening and we've ever given him any satisfactory answers they well you revolted against the French and You're having a civil war you got some communist and all of those are reasons that they don't think of serious. and I've talked to military people and people who deal in terrorism they said something about The response of people who've been bombed they resent it was not fair. Especially they don't have bombs and most of our early attacks on these people were who balmy and then we starve you. And those two pressures are enough to result in if you don't have a means of Defending yourself terrorist activities. American Revolutionary War do we didn't fight fair? The British didn't think we fought Fair we had the Minutemen hiding behind the trees. They were marching down the street and the red suits. What was your Senator McCarthy? What was your visceral reaction? What was your immediate reaction when the attack occurred last September? Well, you'll just strange, you know, you wondered why we hadn't thought of it because all of our worries about terrorism are about nuclear weapons and But generally that happens you just the terrorists think up something that they can use and we're not prepared for the British weren't prepared for us. The black certainly weren't prepared to defend themselves against Church bombings and arrested so it was this second thing about not looking at the total picture and saying what do we do about Bill Fulbright wrote a book and published a book in 66 on the arrogance of power. It was pretty much taken from a series of lectures. She's given a Johns Hopkins that I don't watch the response. I don't I didn't hear any member of Congress or any of the people written Administration. Say I've been reading for four rows back. It was a pretty good book. I like it because I rode one photo showing the same year called the limits of power bill would kind of what anyway the motivation or theoretical questions, but And so I was bound to happen. And the first of my book was that it wouldn't work. The Santa pretty. Well what got pretty good attention overseas. It is translated into Spanish and in the German, but it wasn't very well. Well one very well sold in this country are guests in this hour is midday of midday is Senator Eugene McCarthy. Let's let's go back to the phones and on a lie in st. Paul you're on with Senator McCarthy. (00:13:52) Good morning, and thank you for taking my comments. I wanted to say regarding your comment about one of the corruption in the corporate world that most of these big companies corporations got very big under the leadership of the administration of former President Clinton. So I don't think it's fair to lay the blame under the food or President Bush, which really is not really (00:14:21) the true. Well, I reusable aiming for everybody corruption would do enough surviving for his own manipulations will answer for that. But what you do and what I spoke earlier about James Kent who wrote about the In America in 1831 and Woodrow Wilson said you should never call a corporation of legal person because it isn't a person it's less than a person and it has only as much ethical sense of ethical responsibility as you put in the law and we've allowed too much leeway. I took out of course at the University when I was in graduate school in corporate finance and They quoted Economist named Snyder who is rather popular at that time. It's 1940 maybe or I will that's when I read him and Snyder said something like deep is our prejudices against avarice and greed. There's no question what they've been great forces for the building of America. And this is I think the way the Enron people look at it. We're just corporate incarnations and we're as moral as we have to be and that's all. Well, they say the bottom line. I've probably for someone else bill magali of Minneapolis 10 years ago on the non-financial economics in which we raised three or four moral curses questions, which C corporation doesn't respond to unless the law makes them do it. And that's what we're talking about doing now, I think If you'd like to join our conversation with Senator McCarthy, the numbers are 1-800 to for 22828 that's toll-free and in the metropolitan area. The number is six five one two, two seven six thousand. Let's go to Tom and Scandia you're on with Senator McCarthy. (00:16:19) Hello. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. I would like to ask Senator McCarthy what he was referring to when he said he thought it was going to take 30 years to recover. Is it 30 years until we can clean up Corporate America or was he referred to 30 years to get rid of terrorism. (00:16:37) I think 30 years on terrorism. I think it's going to take 10 or 15 years on corporations. And and then you're going to have trouble there were people got into sort of the Theology of capitalism a couple years ago and everyone comparison of it, too. To religion the religion of capitalism was no conflict between religion and capitalism and I wrote a piece when I was somewhat serious. I you're five or six problems. And I said, you know, I wonder what Jonathan Swift would have done about these and I concluded for the corporations and the capital to see we've proposed it. All Brokers and money handers are take oath of poverty as priests and monks and people who wanted on the edge of the volcano. They have to prove that they're immune to the Temptation that is a particular point of religion. And the religion of capitalism was read to make money for the for the clients not for the priest. But as we as a broker's operate why the first person's to make the money other manipulators and I said was rich would have said make them take the oath of office and with the poverty and and be a good idea to have all CPAs take an oath of my kind true CPA is in the way claim to be professionals, but they have no profession. They have no principles of the only don't have the institutions that Lawyers do for example and doctors but they're about the only professions left, right? You're listening to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Mike Edgerly in today for Gary. Eichten. Our guests in this hour is Senator Eugene McCarthy. Let's go back to phones Beth and Elk River. You're on with Senator McCarthy (00:18:26) a good morning. Thanks for taking my call as Senator McCarthy. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts or even go so far as some advice for the average American who is concerned and tries to stay current with the issues that are going on in the face of you know, we have credit card companies contributing to bankruptcy bill as we heard in the last hour. Yeah, the accounting industry is writing our regulations governing Finance. The oil companies are writing our energy policy and I just read this morning when the farm bill was passed that the FDA purposely excluded to studies which showed how important consumers actually want accurate labeling on food products, but that was not put into the farm bill. Because their studies were not given to on I'm just wondering as an average American what recourse do we really have because the politicians that we elect supposedly to voice. Our concerns are the ones that are being bought by companies that are writing the legislature. I'm just wondering how (00:19:37) you're right things get built into the system. I was Mother people oppose the the campaign Finance law in 75 when it was passed and everybody was worried about the corruption and we pointed out that they were putting the corporation's into politics by the special privileges. They gave the corporations and we figured it'd take about three elections for the corporate lawyers to figure out what to do and they did so that politics was to a large extent that was not really controlled by corporations now is and so when you talk about what you're going to do about these problems you raised you have to do it. By considering what the corporate spirit is in the corporate a conscience is and it's built into the system both. It's partly a consequence of the two party system. The two parties have legalized themselves and put obstacles in the way of any opposition and until you break up the structure of thing and procedural thing. I think it's hopeless. hopeless desperate it's the corporate contributions are the major contributions. And so the campaign money finally comes from not from persons responsible persons, but from something which is institutionalized and reflects the kind of limited morality of the corporation and their bottom line, which is a is their standard by which they guide all their actions are were supposed to say the bottom line. I think of any time a president said I'm listening to this President especially says, it's the bottom line Bayada impeach him. Let's go to Robin Ely you're on with Senator McCarthy (00:21:38) hide Senator McCarthy. My memory serves me right I was for you when you tried for the nomination. I hope so proud to be for it was but right now quick I got to give a little quick addenda to what the question is about. Fifteen years ago. There was a grad student here at the University of Minnesota that did a thesis on the book 1984 and he came up with the conclusions that the hundred and sixty some predictions that Orwell wrote Into the book a hundred and forty two hundred and fifty had taken place in our life already just the common date things about convenience and Communications and all that and he said the only thing that was keeping us from being in 1984, like state were major happenings things like this terrorism thing and what it's doing with patriotism and other things surrounding it taking away our rights and freedoms and serving us up war that we don't really know what's happening. They're doing it all on their own and they're not really telling us and any other kind of major changes like that. Do you see any well, I oui (00:22:53) oui Do some comparisons between 1984 and and 1968 the perfect particular one. It's always stressful Orwell's predictions or is writing our if you have reference who was the latinization of language dealing with war and he talked about rectification of boundaries, and and he said, When you when proponents of War began to use Latin words, he said it's like snow falling on on on the corruptor that it's even supposed to eat easy out and he gave several examples and actually in the course of the Vietnam War. The first require SLI Advocates of the war had was to Latin languages. They talked about rectification of boundaries and pacification and they went beyond our well. Was he in injection of the word incursion under Nixon they began to talk about the incursion into Cambodia and we had never been cursed before because there's no verb for in curse at the kind of happening. And it was just another Step Beyond what Orwell had talked about but there are other things done in the advancement of that war that were predicted. and warned against by Orwell You're listening to midday on Minnesota Public Radio our guests in this hours Senator Eugene McCarthy will return with your calls and questions and comments for the senator after this break and then we'll be back. Greed some say it's human nature others say it's a sin that can ruin lives even huge corporations. I'm Neal Conan. How do you decide when enough is enough the nature of greed next Talk of the Nation from NPR news. That's today at 1 o'clock here on Minnesota Public Radio, Minnesota Public Radio relies on listeners to help pay for programming and operating cost to become a member click and join at Minnesota Public Radio dot org and thanks time now for a check of news headlines. Here's William wilcoxon. (00:25:20) Thanks Mike in the news stocks are up sharply this morning. The Dow Industrial Average has have soared as many as 300 points analysts say the market is benefiting from follow through buying after a rally materialized in the late going on Friday whether Traders believe the market has really hit bottom. It appears that they do not want to be left behind in the rally President. Bush says work is the pathway to dignity in a fundraising trip to South Carolina today Bush renewed his call for tougher. Our welfare to work rules. The president is pushing lawmakers to take up legislation to renew a landmark 1996 welfare overhaul law in the fall top prosecutor in the Ukraine says pilot error and poor planning are likely behind the world's worst air show disaster a military jet plowed into Spectators over the weekend during the show in a western City killing eighty three people and injuring more than 100. The prosecutor says the jet had been flying too low and that show organizers should not have allowed stunts to be performed directly above the crowd. The panel reviewing have some Catholic Bishops handle sex abuse cases will be hearing from advocates for victims tomorrow leaders of the survivors network of those abused by priests would address the committee's first meeting for about a half hour in Washington. The group had pushed for a spot on the lay panel set up by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops last month a storm that whipped through parts of Minnesota last night shut down Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport for a while delaying flights for 45 minutes, but the hardest hit parts were in southern Minnesota where the National Weather Service reported wind gusts of up to 60 miles per hour golf ball-sized hail was reported near Lake Pepin on the border with Wisconsin even bigger Hale was reported near Tyler in Southwestern Minnesota the forecast for today calls for most partly to mostly sunny skies Statewide with high temperatures in the 80s in the Twin Cities, mostly sunny and a high in the mid 80s. And that's news from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm William Wilcox, (00:27:15) welcome back to mid-day. I'm Mike Edgerly and today for Gary eichten a reminder the coming up. Noon today. It's a new Minnesota Public Radio news documentary over the hill to the poor house. And that comes your way at noon today on Minnesota Public Radio in this our midday. We're talking to Senator Eugene McCarthy Senator McCarthy. I'd like to begin this half-hour by asking your assessment of President George W bush. How do you think he's done in his first old almost two years in office? Well, I think he's done. Nobody knows what to do about terrorism. So whatever he's done is as good as I think anybody else could have done my own opinion would have been it should have been more concentrated. There should have been a more concentrated search. Were the terrorists no declaration of war and some attention Pages basic causes of terrorism. He didn't do it that way but it's kind of thing searching for terrorists. You don't know whether the president is really know something. You don't know. I was always suspicious when they said if you knew what the president knows you agree with him because I how did they know I didn't know what he's doing and how do they know I would agree if I didn't know whether or how did they know that? I know what did know and wasn't agree with that. I I think he shows a weakness which Rosie I wrote an article about four elections ago saying that kind of help the people out and picking the president's because there's no system anymore. There's no party structure there in both parties. They somebody captures the presidency and you know, you could run the Sheriff of Nottingham for president in the United States. He might win to be had a good record that the worst people to put into the presidency or governors. We used to say in the Senate if you're elected a governor to the senator took him six years to get over it the election to the presidency. He comes in he thinks he's a governor of the state the Albany. I handled a national Garden shot a few students. I'm not afraid to shoot people that their whole approach is and I think this is a it was true of Jimmy Carter and Clinton ran for governor of the United States and got elected and I think he ran it as though he were governor and have left some problems because of it and pushes another governor. because it all started by the governor for the worse than former vice presidents were the next bad in order and then we got down to 50 out Admirals and Generals and Before you had an acceptable presidential candidate, but in the British parliamentary system before a person is made prime minister. He served in three or four Ministries. He knows financing and he knows the defense position foreign policy knows the welfare of thing here. Just bring them in. You know, Eisenhower said you either great General in World War II the British throughout Churchill after the war because they said he wasn't aware of what the problem was. He wasn't even a general and I think it's hard to know because the Heavenly terrorist thing came on all of a sudden but I don't he sounds to me like someone giving her valedictorian address at High School all these things he's going to do in state of the nation and he's kind of obvious things about what the American people are is too much sail for the boat. Do you see any parallels between his conduct of his presidency and his father's presidency? Well, I don't know his father never shaped up into any kind of president. Peggy Noonan was a speechwriter for him for sure that it's been writer for Reagan and she said they rejected her early offerings because they she's they said she used a pronoun i' too much in George didn't like to say I and and then she said they told her he didn't even like subjects. He just like Freddy Cuts. So you got up this morning started a war. I do solemnly swear. I didn't say I don't say I and I was looking at the language of George Junior. And it's a peculiar language. The key to it as I see it was when he said they asked him about concentrated control of television stations and networks. He said I've noticed her more few. You see what do you apply that? Generally? You can just kind of slowly have everything disappear more few. And then you away with a few and it's interesting as you apply the language. It was actually more few and another concept his faith based charity. Faith-based politics. Let me say that some cells are bad enough, but but he believes in face the based religion. which create some real problems when you start dealing with the Muslim and so it's kind of a morpha sort of thing that That I don't think you've sorted out, you know right in that kind of world of language. You can contradict yourself without having to answer for it, right? If you'd like to join our conversation with Senator Eugene McCarthy, our number is 1-800-218-4243 or in the metropolitan area. The number is six five one two, two seven six thousand. Let's go to John and Duluth. You've been hanging on a bit. You're on with Senator McCarthy look too (00:33:45) long Senator. I have a question about the war against Iraq. This morning's Duluth paper. The top article is consideration of strategies for our war against Baghdad and we've had other articles in the past and op-ed things. It's just taken for granted that we're going to go to war against Iraq right in front of me holding it in my hand. I have a copy of the Constitution of the United States and in article one section eight at said that the Congress has the duty to declare war Etc to raise money in support of the armies and so forth under the president. It's the same as the commander-in-chief but in the Way does it Grant him the power to start a war now, the Congress should take this action and they don't waste any time, you know, they debate things like privatization of Social Security election funding reform and all that. They spend a lot of time on that but I've not heard any debate in the Congress about a declaration of war against Iraq. It seems to me that there ought to be a stand that we do not attack Iraq and less the Congress declares war. How do you feel about (00:35:01) that? Well the water down the whole question of how you get into war by so many doctrines and treaties and and resolutions that The Constitution is going to enforce the side. I agree with you that the testimony Rock I thought was was when they had defeated him in Battlefield and they walked away and let him go back to where he was that was in decision on the part of bush and but it is curious. There's an old Irish well called a hates of caddock things that he didn't want to happen one was he hated to see a scribe that load War and what you got on your rock is practically the is like Vietnam practically the whole press in the country as far as dating Iraq now and as they were for invading Vietnam and mrs. Bush Barbara was quoted as saying I'd like to see Sadat how well what's the president's wife doing suggesting that? Head of another state should be should have said hang but she said hung and this talk was going on now is unless it's consistent with the War Powers Act which really gives the president time to have a six-month swore on his own in a kind of a legalistic framework. Could you know, he's telling the lawyer that had too much of With the writing a law. They have 60 Minutes 60 hours 60 days 30 days two days wait two weeks. And then you do something and the War Powers Act is loaded with that kind of legalistic language, which never replies to never has applied to any War we've gotten into and I agree with you that there are few members of the Senate. However, who raised you some questions about it. if I get rocks and it's a whole mix. mixed picture to involves Iran and Iraq and whole Muslim thing, but what's been done now is most everything done by the administration is preparation for war. Let's go back to the phones. Mike and Spicer you're on with Senator McCarthy. (00:37:36) Thank you for taking my call senator for over 20 years. The word liberal in the United States has been held in contempt in your opinion. What will it take for the word liberal to be politically favorable (00:37:48) again? Well, I think there's kind of a vacuum now, it could be brought back campaign with Dukakis why the Liberals rejected liberalism it took about 20 years for it was a good word. When I first ran for for congress in 48, it was still all right in 58, but progressively it deteriorated and it was a good adjective. The problem is you should never make an adjective into a noun if you do is subject to all kinds of attack and that's what happened to Liberal was a good adjective back in 48 your the you could be a liberal Democrat a liberal Republican liberal Presbyterian the liberal whatever but eventually it became Pure liberal just a liberal. There was a woman in Wisconsin wrote a poem. He drives up his little bit like what happened? To the goat. She said the goat was a useful animal at one time milk and pulling carts and Hyde's and stuff and but progressively worked its way up and finally it became a deity and then people began to attack the gold so it became a reduced to presiding over kind of Lower order religious ceremonies eventually became the person responsible for losing the ball game and eating tin cans and all that stuff seven the same thing happened to the word liberal and once it became an island if you get a code, well, I'm not a liberal Mo old-fashioned liberal or I'm a conservative like Buckley said Egghead liberal until the even the Liberals began to apologize for the word and I said in this speech with the able to be editor of the National Review he was telling saying about what kind of a conservative he was. He wasn't a traditional one and he wasn't a new liberal and you know, what kind of our new conservative and he said what kind of liberal are you we said to me I said I'm a deal. I'm not a neoliberal. I'm a pure Neil I said to you what you've done to the word liberals. I we had a retired for seven years and everybody wants a position to hide you can be an eel for seven years and then you could come back and be a liberal Neil if you want to be with the word has been disgraced and I think the time for it to come back. There are few people were saying they're liberals now. hello, I think I think there's a Readiness for You're listening to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Mike Edgerly in today for Gary. Eichten our guests in this hour Senator Eugene McCarthy. Let's go back to the phones Bruce. And st. Paul you're on with Senator McCarthy. (00:40:58) Hi. I'm wondering if you don't think that we can look at the problems that the son George has inherited from father George to be make a corny analogy to Hollywood. I think what we have here in terms of the terrorism situation as well as the regulation issues things like that is kind of like to compare talk about Frankenstein and the son of Frankenstein if you look at the Afghanistan situation biggest operation ever in before the 19th, at least through the 1980s with the CIA was the funding of the creation the mujahideen and they were the Frankenstein monster created and Unleashed against the Soviet Union caused a lots of bombings death terrorism, especially directed toward the Soviet Union. I would say now the chickens have come home to roost because the same people who were involved then became stronger Osama. Bin Laden was given 20 million dollars by the CIA and it was someone even larger named within hekmatyar. They CIA tried to kill just recently was given two billion dollars to create the Fighting Force against Soviets. And now after all these years the some of those very same monsters have turned their destructive forces against the US similarly we could talk about the deregulation wrist. You have a question in here. Yeah. I'd like to ask Senator McCarthy if he feels that yep indeed the monsters that we created in the past are now biting Us in the back side. (00:42:34) Well, that's pretty true a lot of the programs that the CIA and government-sponsored have come because you have come back to roost and and the Afghanistan's example in the participation in the bombing of various places in former Soviet, Russia and It's sort of proves. What de tocqueville said if you have a military establishment, which is bigger than you need for your own defense. It'll get you into trouble and that's what happened to us in 1947 in the defense appropriation World War II was directed by the war department when they begin to settle the military again after World War 2 1947 appropriation bill called it the defense department. And I've tried several times to asking the Pentagon said when did you decide to call it the defense department? And why did you do it? He said we don't know what just happened. Which will you I don't believe you follow several years of you think more about things and I and you want us to believe you do. I said it defense department. Now, we don't we don't have any offensive Wars anymore. We just have defense we declared the National Defense weather worries Vietnam or Grenada or Cuba did not have element of Defense in it and they said well, it's just been in there since 47. I said, I know it but how did it get there when you got at least have a department of offense and Department the Department of Defense like a football team would be better balanced and we are but de tocqueville said it will become a separate Force. And it will have its own foreign policy its own military policy winter goes beyond that. It's on PX and it's actually in when McNamara was running things. They had an idea of a GI religion unified religion for the armed services and there was unification and and they did they would be a unified religionist until you left the Army and you could go back to being what you were whether there was no limit to the what they begin to conceive of. Is could be established by the military institutions. Let's go back to the phones Leroy and Lauderdale. You're on with Senator (00:45:11) McCarthy Senator McCarthy. I do not have an astute question to ask you but it's a little break of what I've been listening to my last name is kristensen Leroy kristensen and I was a student of yours at Mandan high school and of (00:45:28) Abigail as a long time yellow Leroy Christensen, (00:45:32) and I thought I'd hear in your voice as I was doing my errands this morning. I had to call and say hello. Well good for you. And I Remember The Debate Club subject at that time in 1940 was Pro or con unicameral legislation, and I think we're still discussing it. (00:45:51) I guess you're still being discussed unicameral yellow eye. I'm more concerned about the legalization of the two-party system. And then I am about the unicameral by I don't think unicameral is a bad idea. But John Adams who's getting some attention. Now, I'm glad to know said that the worst political system. He could conceive for operation under a constitution. Like ours was to have it controlled by two political parties. He said they either would go to extremes or you have a situation where there's no difference between him and in our case. There's hardly any difference between the issues are talking about privatization is no real issue, you know and welfare reform Clinton's welfare who knew we will have welfare as we know it will have welfare as we knew it. Which was not very good. So you get into where you could have two parties fighting with slogans rather than with substance. That's a pretty good campaign line. Yeah, that'll work. Yeah the right thanks for your call. We have just a couple of minutes left Senator. I'd like to ask you one question. Now, you're after the show you're heading off to meet with a group of riders who share an interest in the use and misuse perhaps of the English language. What do you make of current English usage today? You've cited several examples just in the last half hour of Miss House of the language. Well, I really try to stay away from particular issues of between the Democrats and Republicans and pay attention to two things one. things that I think affect the structure of the constitution in the operation of it and of the operation of politics like the two-party system, but on the proposition that if this structure is destroyed why you have to it's like zero based thinking you say why go back and start over and the other is language and part of its language of the military and the angular language of the CIA, but it's the general failure to speak good English and I sort of have an on this group by accident in Minnesota, but I've been involved. I'm on the usage Board of Random House dictionary and I edited a dictionary for McGraw-Hill when I was in Congress and political language. And so it's question of kind of keeping the language pure and Miss television, especially in this instant language thing why I think the language is You should be misread and principally in Wartime is threatened even in peacetime now, so this is a good group and and whatever. I'm back in their meeting I going to talk to him asking what they're doing there, but it's part of a broader interest I have in language and I just brought out about a year ago of book called A BCI of American politics, which tries to clarify meeting its I concluded that the proper study of. of of the press and politicians is animals. So the old Pope thing about his study of man. That's not enough. You got to use animal metaphors and this group is I've got a it's a pretty good book is helpful book on it does two things. We think we are words that were being used. The people don't know what they mean like. I guess who the Washington Post said there was a quandary in the Horn of Africa and the only thing you could Jeff McNally road drew a picture for you to Jeff. What is the quandary looks like and it's pretty good representation and impasse in Damascus is like to blocking the streets, you know, the image F naught and this is the other kind of animals that we take the animal behavior that's defined and And apply it to political action like George Bush's Administration. I met you may have remembered but when they were setting up the cabinet, we're just about I'm sorry. We're just moments away. Okay. Well the they were going to recuse themselves. They don't operate when they had no conflict of interest and it half of their people wouldn't be able to do anything and there was a report of a breed of Oriental goats that fell down whatever they were threatened. They just go deal and then they'd come back I said, this is the image of the Bush Administration said here McCarthy. I think we're going to have to leave order as words and on that image. Thank you very much Senator, Eugene McCarthy.