With news from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Greta Cunningham. The Metropolitan airports commission has asked a consultant to analyze the Fallout from a possible merger of Northwest Airlines The Wall Street Journal reports American Airlines officials are considering by Northwest even though preliminary talks last week produced. No firm offer Max spokeswoman. Amy, Von Walter says the commission wants to be prepared should have take over occur. Just ask them to take a look at you know, any of the possible scenarios, you know, that way we have a couple different things to look at and as we again as we get more information and you know, we'll be able to fine-tune those requests a little bit more than I say 2.6 billion dollar expansion program underway. Von Walter says Northwest is required to pay approximately half that amount and then obligation would extend to any new owner is today in Virginia Minnesota for the man accused of kidnapping and killing Katie Poirier to jurors receded and Donald blum's trial yesterday. Jury selection is expected to last several weeks. Big Crowds Are gathering at Prince's Paisley.Park Studios in Chanhassen today to get a tour of the building. The tours are part of a festival of events to celebrate princess 42nd birthday visitors to Paisley Park will get to see princess recording studios his personal office and his most famous wardrobe pieces the forecast for the state of Minnesota today calls for partly sunny skies with the possibility of some scattered showers in the north. There's a slight chance for showers in the Southeast today high temperatures ranging from 75 in the North 285 in the South. Should I partly cloudy skies state line with Lowes ranging from 50 to 60 degrees at this hour. Blue skies are Farrah temperature of 50 degrees Saint Cloud reports partly cloudy skies and 70 Rochester reports cloudy skies and 67 degrees. It is a Twin Cities partly cloudy skies a temperature of 68. That's a news update. I'm going to Cunningham education reporting on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by Hamline University graduate school of public administration and management dedicated to developing leaders in the private public and nonprofit sector.6 minutes past 12 Good afternoon, and welcome back to mid-day on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm very glad you could join us 1970s were quite an eye-opener for most Americans first. There was the Watergate scandal the political dirty tricks the abuses of power in the efforts to cover up those activities by 1974 the Watergate scandal drove President Richard Nixon out-of-office the next year 1975 the Senate select committee on intelligence. The church committee has came to be known after its chairman. Senator Frank Church held a series of hearings on a broader pattern of abuse committee found that several US government agencies in the name of National Security had routinely been spying on ordinary Americans for years and years before Minnesota senator and former vice president Walter Mondale chair, the church committees domestic surveillance task force during those years. And yesterday during the second of his public lectures on his fifty years and public service Mondale discuss those Revelations and what they say about the delicate Balancing Act between protecting National Security and preserving individual liberty today on. Midday. We're going to hear his comments and the comments of two other participants in yesterday's form about to begin former vice president Walter Mondale speaking at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey Institute of public affairs in the early 70s. We saw the struggle between faith and fear played out and key historic events are painful National debate over the war in Vietnam, the revelation of the government's public deceit in support of the war and the Watergate scandal which For the First Time Force the resignation of an American president. By this time I've been in the US Senate for almost 10 years. I just abandoned my race for the presidency to widespread Applause. And I was now back full-time in the Senate and slowly but surely seniority had become my friend. These were some of the most productive years in my career. It was during this time that I led the fight to reform the Senate filibuster rule shared hearings on disadvantaged children, which led to the adoption of the Child and Family Services act later visited my by my dear friend. Mr. Dixon and I wrote my book the accountability of Power Tour de more responsible presidency. It's sold about four copies, but in and I tried to Grapple with my alarm over the steady downpour of government deceit. Then came the shocking news disclosed by Seymour Hersh is the New York Times accusing the CIA of massive spy operations aimed at American citizens here at home reports of other abusive soon followed and it ignited a firestorm of protest. I remember thinking for the first time that our democracy could be at risk. I believe that and I believe now that the threats from the Soviet Union were real and very dangerous. I believe there were a few Americans very few who wished the Soviet Union to Prevail. But what many people feared but was never true was that large numbers of Americans were allied with the Soviet Union against our own country. This irrational fear led many people to believe that to protect our democracy. We had to violate some of its most basic principles. Against these fear was faith faith in the rule of law faith when America protects the personal Liberties of its citizens. It is stronger not weaker when America honors is Constitution. It is more secure and Powerful in the world and not less. I guess these fears was the belief that our public officers even though you must operate in secret must have been the law. As I read her story, I wondered what had become of these most basic principles and I was not alone in January of 75 senator for story of Rhode Island moves at the Senate create a select committee on government operations to investigate these intelligence agencies. I don't believe that any of us. We're out to weaken the FBI or the other intelligence agencies in the world of crime and terrorism and foreign adversaries. We need these agencies and we need the best officers we can find I have worked with many of them over the years. They are gifted and committed they often risked their lives for us and they deserve our respect. The committee we created known as the church committee for its chairman. Frank church was really an unprecedented thing. It marked the first time in the history of this nation or any other that intelligence agencies would be subjected to this kind of thorough investigation by an outside source. There were 11 of us on the committee Frank Church feel heart Dee Huddleston Bob Morgan Gary Hart, John Tower Howard Baker Barry Goldwater Charles Mathias dick schweiker and myself. As the investigation progressed. I was named chair of the domestic task force charged with investigating. The intelligence community's abuses against Americans here at home. We had an enormous responsibility investigating the FBI the CIA the NSA the Army Post Office and the IRS. Fortunately, we had a brilliant staff summer who are with us today and bastard David Aaron will be participating the panel Professor lock Johnson of the University of Georgia who is very very helpful to me and preparing my remarks. I must also mention Mike Epstein Mike was Central to all of our work and was to participate in today's conference tragically Mike died of cancer a few weeks ago and I would like to dedicate today's lecture to this wonderfully brilliant and caring human being who had a lot to do with a success for this committee's work. It was Mike who came to me early in the investigation to warn that what we were uncovering was beyond belief that proved to be an understatement. Our investigation brought to light an appalling pattern of government lawlessness directed at American citizens much of it but not all had been encouraged or ordered by top officials and presidents of both parties are final report filled 396 pages. And those are just the domestic abuse has also told the committee produced 13 volumes of evidence of abuses by American intelligence agencies and 96 recommendations for reform. None of the agencies question the accuracy of our findings and here's what we found. The FBI files on 1 million Americans investigated a half million so-called subversive between 1960 and 74 without a single conviction the CIA with the post office cooperation illegally open mail for over 20 years collecting information on a million-and-a-half Americans including John Steinbeck Hubert Humphrey Arthur Burns. And guess what Richard Nixon received by America between 1947 and 1975. The IRS gave the FBI the tax returns of 11,000 groups and individuals and conducted audits of them as a form of political harassment. Army intelligence investigated 100000 American citizens during the Vietnam war the CIA conducted experiments with LSD on unwitting subjects the FBI designated 26,000 individuals to be incarcerated in the event of a National Emergency the list included Martin Luther King and Norman mailer. The FBI conducted hundreds of burglaries so-called black bag jobs app little group a master spy plan. No one is the Houston plan was prepared for and approved by President Nixon to monitor Vietnam War protesters who are assumed to be under the influence of foreign powers Nixon later called the operation off major aspects of the operation were implemented. Anyway without formal approval Summit been underway for years. Even today I find it almost impossible to fully explain the enormity of what we found or for that matter the inanity of much of what was done. One of the things that surprised me during the hearings with the response. I often received about the committee's work from the public many people ask me. What's the problem these agents are looking for bad people and if you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about I heard that repeatedly. Well, what about it? We're going to sit people in decent causes hurt by these secret investigations agencies ever go after American citizens who'd broken no laws, simply because their ideas were different. The answer to these questions is a clear. Yes, these investigations targeted Americans from every Walk of Life. No meeting with two small no group to insignificant. The FBI investigated women's groups veterans associations academic religious environmental civil rights organization, the American Indian movement here in Minnesota and Addie War groups in our own State and there is no example that better proves the danger of these practices to Americans innocent Americans, then the FBI secret war against dr. Martin Luther King This Record still astounds me all these years later. Dr. Kane had violated no laws. He was the nation's greatest civil rights. He was a gentle Apostle of non-violence a religious leader acting from the deepest beliefs yet under the bureau's counterintelligence program. No one is going to help Rural King Southern leadership conference was classified as a black hate group and King himself. According to the beer was the most dangerous negro leader in America and intelligence assignation to 1968 the bureau sought to discredit him and then there were to take him off his pedestal Hoover went so far as to suggest the bureau replace king with a safer black leader of Hoover's own choosing. I think that was Sam Pierce what they wanted and Reagan Secretary of Housing. Remember Reagan calling mr. Mayor once The bureau's the bureau's campaign against King involved wiretaps paid informants and Asians who shadowed is every step and it didn't end with spying the bureau set out to destroy his career and his marriage. It send anonymous letters to newspapers denigrating his record The Bureau tried to block King from receiving honorary degree to keep them from meeting with the pulp. They bugged his hotel rooms to record his romantic Liaisons and then supplied reporters with a stream of. Stories about his private life. At the height of the campaign in the bureau mail an anonymous letter and embarrassing tapes to King and what has been taken as an attempt to push King to suicide letter read as follows. There is only one thing left for you to do and you know, what it is you are done there is but one way out for you, you better take it before your filthy abnormal fraudulent self. Is Bared to the nation. J Edgar Hoover deserve special mention here. He had been director for for 48 years. It is later years Hoover was a twisted man who sue saw the bureau is his personal fiefdom many believe Hoover became angry with King because King wants publicly question or the bureau had done enough to protect civil rights workers from violence. But whatever. The reason Hoover hounded King for years subjective subjecting him to vindictive and Relentless harassment after all those years office Hoover head game far too much power irons with a personal collection of secret files that he kept in his old office Hoover collected embarrassing information on Gossip. I nearly everyone in Washington. No one not the Attorneys General who are supposed to be in charge of him. Not even the Press has dared to challenge you. Respect the reporters some of the best who knew about the FBI attacks on dr. King later admitted that they were afraid to write about it. Even Lyndon Johnson. When asked why I had reappointed Hoover who was then deep into 70 said he would rather have him inside pissing out than outside pissing in Herbert Hoover was so powerful and I doubt very much that we could have conducted our investigation if he'd still been in charge of the bureau and alive, but it is too easy to portray Hoover as a sole villain as I mentioned in my first election lecture Lyndon Johnson fruit of the FBI surveillance of the Mississippi Freedom Democratic at our 64 convention because he wanted to keep one step ahead of their political strategy. Even the Kennedys were guilty of intelligence abuse has in fact our committee found that every present from Roosevelt to Nixon had press these agencies to go beyond the law. This was a bipartisan problem. These Preston just saw the intelligence agencies as extensions of their own personal power as indeed. They were in an office whose frustrations have driven every one of its occupants crazy. The temptation to use see secret agencies to accomplish their agendas was just too much to resist. It was welcomed relief, no restraints no arguments what those presents and Hoover also shared was a fear that we might not be able to protect ourselves from our enemies without breaking our own laws. But these fears were always exaggerated William Sullivan the top agent in the cointelpro car that ran all these things for years at the very top close to Hoover for many many years told me that their heart at their height. There were never enough American Communist to carry the smallest Precinct in New Hampshire. Besides you said the head of the national Communist Party Gus Hall was always going fishy. What do you supposed to be working for Minnesota Iron Range? No secret no surprise there. But Hoover never last fed the public sphere of widespread disloyalty when William Sullivan told Hoover that his agents could find no evidence that Martin Luther King was under the influence the Communist Hoover angrily rejected his report when Sullivan eventually reversed himself to satisfy his boss Hoover Road. I am glad to see that the light has filed the decimal decimal a delayed come to the Intelligence Division. I struggled for months to get over the fact that the Communists were taking over the radical over the racial Movement by experts here couldn't or wouldn't see it. Ironically in the last few years. We've been able to get into the KGB archives Soviet archives and we find out there that the KGB was in fact trying to discredit King at the same time because they considered him to be to Modera. The campaign against king and the other intelligence exercises excesses showed that we had created a secret world within government not a pot countable to the courts to the Congress are ultimately the American people as I reread reread the long hearing record the other day. I realized that I'd made a pest of myself as I pressed one witness after another with one key question. Whatever happened to the law. The answers were stunning. I asked Tom Houston who devised the massive domestic spy plan the next White House where he was concerned. About the violations of the law. Here's his answer. None of them offered evidence that they were opening mail or intercepting private Communications and other acts which it was requested that the president authorized is that correct? The report indicated that there were no Melo Wings, there were no surreptitious entry. And in fact, there were well, apparently there were you don't take the lawn to your hand and play God. And interfere with the rights of the American people just because there's something you don't like on Saturday. I agree with that, but that is what you did. Well, I better I understand. That's not what I did. I also grilled an officer from the secret to National Security Agency. And here is his answer. What are you concerned about its legality. The galaty weather in what sense whether that would have been illegal thing to do. That particular aspect and didn't enter into the discussions know I was asking whether you were concerned about whether that would be legal. improper we didn't consider it at the time. I asked to Postmaster General if they were concerned that the CIA was breaking the law by opening the mail which is against the law. Here's what they said. I didn't know that and I don't know now. That's what the CIA was doing was illegal my feelings and my feeling now is that the CIA had overall powers that put them in a different situation than other people. I must see the testimony of just heard from you Mr. Day and be mr. Bun scares me more than I expected because not only found gross an unconscionable interference with the males which threatens the civil liberties of every American but we have the testimony of two former Postmaster General that they don't think it's wrong even today. When former FBI director Kelly testified I asked about a speech which has recently given and what you said. Be willing to surrender small measure of our liberties to preserve their great bulk of them. Which rights would you have us give up? Under the Fourth Amendment you have the right then you haven't met her. I should be free from search and seizure to go beyond that. That's right. You should be able to go go. No, I do not mean that we should ever go on. I remember my friend filhart in a voice we can buy cancer. Saying that his family had been right all along. He said they had told him repeatedly that the FBI was trying to throw arctis dissent against the Vietnam War as a result of my superior wisdom in high office. He said I assured them that they were on pot. It just wasn't true. The FBI wouldn't do it then turning to the witness feel. So sad ending is sad boys what you have described as a series of illegal actions intended to deny citizens their first amendment rights just like my children say none of us will ever forget that more moment. Unfortunately what we saw the victory of fear over faith was nothing new for us. We saw it in the Alien and Sedition Acts 1798 ncn from the Loyalty Crusades here in Minnesota. Are the Minnesota Public Service committee during World War II in the Red Scare Palmer Raids following World War and in the graceful internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II. That's what Joe McCarthy the house on American Activities Committee. We're all about and we now know as we look back at those times. All of it was based on unfounded fear. We disgraced ourselves and hurt innocent Americans. At the end of our work the committee recommended several proposals. We found that there was no one here and authority and the name of National Security authorizing a present or any agency to violate the law. We called for the creation of a permanent senate committee on intelligence. It would have authority over the entire intelligence Community the power to investigate the agency should approve their budgets and their responsibility to clear nominees top CIA jobs are recommendation at our recommendation Congress limited future FBI directors to single 10 year term. We recommended that electronic surveillance mail opening an unauthorized entry should be used in the United States only by the FBI and only pursuant to a Judicial warrant other reforms helped restore accountability. Beginning with 74 he was Ryan act presents now required to personally approved all-important covert actions and report to them to the committee on a timely basis in 1978 Congress created a special Court to review domestic wire tap request in the field of foreign Espionage attorney general Levy issued new regulations to keep the FBI focused on criminal investigations and out of politics. And while we failed to get a legislative Charter for the FBI and the around kind of show Contra shows that I fear of shows that abuse has can still occur. I am sure our work strengthened not weakened these agencies almost every CIA and FBI director since has agreed that oversight works and helps maintain public trust and accountability George tenant to see of the CIA recently said oversight is armoire. Vital and direct link to the American people a source of strength that separates us from all other countries of the world. It gives our intelligence agencies and protects us all. As you may know I want to use these lectures to make my contribution to history and to put in writing what I believe these experiences should teachers. So here's what I believe we should learn from all of this first we should always have faith in the basic loyalty of the American people we've had bad apples always will but we're not a bad people second date. We should do everything that we need to do we can do everything we need to do to protect ourselves here at home within the law and we are much stronger not weaker. What do we do song Finally beware of public officers holding uncountable power. We are wonderful people the best ever, but we are not angels in the Magnificent Federalist Paper 51 written to support and explain our constitution Madison and Hamilton wrote these words. What is government itself? But the greatest of all Reflections on human nature if men were Angels no government would be necessary. If Angels were to govern men either external or internal controls on government would be necessary but in framing a government, which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this you must first enable the government to control the governed and in the next place oblige it to control itself and dependence on the people is no doubt the primary control and government but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions. Minnesota senator former vice president US ambassador to Japan Walter Mondale yesterday. He delivered the second of his Monday lectures on public service The Forum at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey Institute of public affairs. Now following vice president mondale's presentation, David Aaron former journalist and staff director of the church committee shared a personal anecdote about the misuse of his FBI file. I'd like to talk a little bit the way press people do about themselves. We have huge Egos and we take it out all over the place. Originally. I was going to try to talk about content and then sort of the meaning of all this but what I want to go back to is a Serta personal look at this thing, I grew up. In the forties and fifties during World War II it was an error in which we had great belief in government. We had a shred overseas and as youngsters, we listen to the radio and one of the great programs was the FBI in peace and War. Early in the 60s. I took a sabbatical from writing and a senator Fulbright asked me to write a run investigation for 18 months on foreign government lobbying something I've written about. I got my first look inside government. and at that point the CIA oversight was a private meeting with Senator Russell and about four other Senators had with the callum's wherever headed the CIA and no other no other Committee in Congress looked into it and then the house it was even smaller with the chairman of the Appropriations Committee alone. And we all trusted everybody. I mean there was a cold war coming on and we believed and this is a trusting country. But as Fritz laid out things went awry and they went awry because we were fearful. And we're also unknowing and sort of naive. 1959 I was writing for some North Carolina papers and working with Manning Charlie Bartlett. Who is right and who the added bonus was a very close friend in the present then President Kennedy. And I had gone down to Cuba right after Castro taking over. And wrote about the Cuban Revolution and within about two months of Castro taking over and and interviewed people and ever so excited because they hated Americans we had used to be as kind of our gambling whorehouse and they had no identity of their own and it didn't matter that. There was some harsh things beginning but they were their own people. I remember coming back on the plane sitting next to a Cuban and said, did you visit our National Gallery and I said no a gallery and have you visited our national museum and I said, no I did not visited me to report are talking to people and he said no Americans ever do they visit are casinos and they are whorehouses and that's going to change. And I wrote that. The reason I mention it is that year. I also wrote the first story ever wrote for the Washington Post. It was a freelance piece. Even then I started poking into the budget and Appropriations bills. Everything is turned up the J Edgar Hoover for the previous five years are gone up to the hill and ask for an armored car that he knew your armored car in need of protection the five years in a row he didn't and so I was in my 20s and hadn't really seen very much of the world decided. I drive a story and sell it to the post and in the process of gathering information. I also got the plans from the general Services Administration about how thick the armor was going to be under his car and what the place that's windows were like what you wrote the piece. Without thinking twice about it. and it turned out later when I went to work for Sunday full bright that it was one of the first things that was in my FBI file that was shown nachos Centerfield by Pat Center hickenlooper's the ranking Republican Army time in counterintelligence initially just doing Security reviews by ended up doing interrogations with potential spies and washing very excited and after was over in the same year 59 it was something called a beginner use Festival, which I went to after I went to Cuba and Charlie Bartlett told me your group up in Cambridge was putting together a anti-communist group to go to what was essentially a used Congress. The people around the world that the Soviets were running in order to recruit young leaders from abroad. and Charlie said it'd be a great story and why don't you go and it would be so I used to describe it a college weekend with Russians and So I when it was only $100 round trip plane fare from Vienna include her all your food and living or living on a Fairgrounds, which had been everybody look together. We're on the Plane full of Americans and got there and suddenly discovered that the people that were with me on it all had their way paid by the Cambridge bass group. And they were all college students but they were student leaders or editors Publications and little by little they all got pulled off to go to the Chinese Opera the Bolshoi ballet and nobody went to the meetings in which we always supposed to represent American view. So I ended up running into delegation. I came back and within about a month or two I had dinner with somebody was a friend of mine who I saw it worked in the Army and some out behind the arras came one of the Deputy directors of CIA to announce that I just taking part in one of their big are student operations and what I consider joining the agency and I was stunned I was about 26 what the blazes was going on and but I think about it until you can't think about it too long. Because in order to insert you in the job we had to pick you up to go attend. Another used Congress as the representative of the American use seaweed in about 2 weeks. I was voted the delegate by Young Democrats young group of the whole bunch of groups, which they were manipulating and I became the delegate and by the time I went over there I bring an easy but the whole thing so I didn't Didn't join the agency also do a lot of people still think I did and that this is one of the great undercover operations full-time. The only reason I lay this all out. Is a 1961 2 years after I could before I win when I came back debriefed about it. I wrote about it in the Washington star. In 1961 my 10x wife. Call me on a Sunday totally hysterical. She had to apply for a job with the Navy that require a security clearance had called her in on a Sunday and navy intelligence and in front of Navy Intelligence Officers into FBI people. She was asked to disclose my communist background and they had on the desk and she describes her to sort of 5 inch high background paper on me and the Communist festival and everything I said. And therefore it was proof positive and the chief should disclose all my friends in college all our friends that we had arrived yet. Mary box 21 has chocolate and she should have closed it off by saying in if if you don't do this, you can't see your son again because you're being irresponsible. terrible father I was lucky enough because Charlie Bartlett New the president who's in talk to the under Secretary of the Navy and was in a week. I got the clearance, but it was my first exposure to what those records could be used for. Instead of being rational I then got angry and took part in a group book that was written about Hoover for conference in Princeton in the early sixties in which I can sort of went to the budget. And again just like the car the car is by the way. We're Justified later on the grounds that he gave them you offered them to the president's anytime president. Wanted to go to some City Hoover would be able to offer him a car there by the president could save money and not have to ship the tone of cards one of the little things you do for people. The same thing was done in with his preparation for agents. It turned out for 8 years in a row, he would go up and and and say we need 50 more agents or a hundred more agents and Congressman Rooney of New York who regularly gave me anything you wanted gave him the money except when I added up all the new agents. He got money for and the agency had he would have had twice a bigger Bureau because he just took the money and spend it on something else and when that article appeared he really went bananas and Rooney get up on the floor of the house and attacked me personally and of course pull out the fact that I was a communist because I had gone to the Communist use Festival. And you special stories? Follow me ever since. That's nothing compared. His fortune said to what he did. To the civil rights movement and what he did to even minor people. And it's something that that it's hard in these days to consider and to think could happen. But it did happen. And although we put safety. Clauses in the set in legislation legislation is only as good as the people who want to use it. I cover Duran country for 5 Years Around Contra in many ways with the failure of the Congress. To actively investigate what was going on because they were fearful that they may have been wrong about what was going on and in Nicaragua. I never felt strongly enough in their own to call the Reagan administration's Bluff to go down and make their own investigations. And so it was a sort of a deadlock between the people that should have been enforcing the rules and the people that were misusing the rules on a democracy you have to keep active and you kept to keep working. The last one I want to make is that as has been pointed out the the church committee came about as a direct result of the articles by Sy Hersh. A lot of the FBI misuse of its powers to go after the Civil Rights Movement was was exposed by Jack Nelson. The first book on the failures of the CIA was done by Tom Ross and Dave wise all of them done by reporters. I have a basic belief that that kind of reporting people getting involved in people Taking Chances is is important part of of this whole process as is congress's being involved and the public you people at large willing to take chances go out on a limb. And one of my concerns about the current day is it there is less of that. There's less of that because the institutions of the price or less eager to take them on because they've been more and more centralized and that's just my own server private things that you need an active populist looks at these things and raise questions, you need an act of Congress that makes use of its powers in the right way. The political way and you need a very active press that's willing to take chances And when they see something wrong right about it and keep writing about it until it's corrected. Those three things together, but would make this country work. And if one of them is out of balance or two of them, I think we're in real trouble David Aaron former journalist and staff director for the church committee. He is now a senior trade advisor at The Dorsey & Whitney Law Firm as a civil rights worker and age of the Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. Andrew Young witnessed FBI surveillance of the Civil Rights Movement first-hand still he believes the United States needs governmental intelligence agencies. Just as long as they are open and truthful Andrew Young has served as US ambassador to the United Nations has been a congressman and a two-term mayor of Atlanta is also an ordained minister. He was the final speaker at the second lecture in the series 50 years. The Mondeo lectures on public service. Here's Andrew Young. I just like to say that the the whole question of faith and fear is a good place to pull Hubert Humphrey and paraphrase in a little bit if you think intelligence is expensive you ought to try ignorance. I think the inside of the Humphrey said education is expensive. You are try the cost of an ignorance, but it it's equally true and one of the reasons why we have never lost faith in this country is preachers and his victims is that we we know how difficult it is to make things work positively having now been on both sides been in the government side as mayor. Member of Congress it is virtually impossible for any agency alone to maintain the security of this nation and looking back. We've always known that we've always known that our security depends really on the freedom and courage of the Democrats within our midst that The event where the president discussing with Martin Luther King, I'll drop it in some members of our staff. He rejected that and finally the president said that we'll look I'll get Burt Marshall a debrief you on it in more detail and Martin didn't even want to talk any more about it. So he said you get with Brooke Marshall and let him tell you if he's got any evidence. So I ended up spending a day in the only place Brooke Marshall would meet with me was in the courthouse federal courthouse in New Orleans, and we walked around and around and around in those huge car. It is arguing about, you know, the Communists in our midst send trying to find a sum. Some rationale for dealing with us a problem, which we didn't even feel the president believed or anybody else. But that was a fear of Hoover that was translated into the difficulty of getting votes from Senate to Eastland and sound of a Russell and the southern Senators to pass this bill. We knew we weren't going to get their boats. Anyway, I'm so out of that came up a strategy that really I went to the churches the National Council of churches had formed a commission on religion and race and we arranged with. I think the Reverend Robert Spike then to pull together a group of Business Leaders led by J Irwin Miller Cummins engine and AT&T a group of religious leaders, which included Rabbi heschel and Protestants Catholics and Jews and civil rights people together and they made the rounds and visited people out to try to argue this issue and they visited your sound of the Hickenlooper from Iowa who they sort of felt. Once he began to see the religious and humanitarian implications along with the politics that bad sort of turn the tide and we've always believed that that swing the five or six. Western senators are brought about by the representation of our religious communities was the thing that really provided the accurate Intelligence on the civil rights movement that moved us forward to a new dimension. The same thing was true in just about everything else. We did at the United Nations, and I was always running counter. Intelligence analysis with the agencies, but I came out of the school. Oh that understood the wrong bunch. I had his Beginnings in our nation and I don't think that there was a final public servant in the twentieth century than Ralph Bunche, but roundbunch began his work with the US government as an academic employed by the office of strategic Services the Forerunner of the CIA to do an analysis of the situation at Africa before the second world war the Ralph Bunche was down in South Africa and 1937-38. He went from Egypt and Morocco and all the way down to South Africa and Ralph Bunche is scholarly analysis of Africa logistically in politically not only laid a foundation for the US allies. survival and Military strategy in the second world war but it was passed on to the United Nations and the game the became the basis of the decolonization of Africa and so I think it's a mistake for us just to focus on the failures and shortcomings of our intelligence work and it's like the failures to deal with the problems of crime in the city until the community gets involved until we all feel a part. I think that the the best, you know, the the best answer for the secrecy is for people to talk openly and we can talk openly about secret things because we don't know what their secret. Missionaries from our churches feel very very uneasy about talking to official government agencies, but they don't have any problems writing to that church periodicals. They don't have any riding in a problem talking with their members of Congress Congress and and to the mayor's are there's a tremendous intelligence network of students of churches. Although I've got out of business that gives us I think on any given day a better feel for what's going on in the world than our agencies in secret can ever pay for And so making sure that we are mobilizing as a government of the people so that the people's intelligence disgusting a free press openly engaged in an academic institution such as this involving. The debates and I are religious institutions. Are we really thought about the Battle of The Liberation movements in the church as well? Because I was 60 minutes. And the CIA what convinced that The Liberation movements in Africa with Marxist terrorist is ridiculous. Now when you look back they were talking about people like Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu. These will the note Aureus terrorist that we weren't supposed to have anything to do with it. We knew them all to be products of all Christian Missionary institutions and many of them the beneficiaries of Kennedy Administration and Fulbright scholarships to come and be involved in in these United States and you and Minnesota have a tremendous right to be proud of that. One of these students that you worked with and produced is now the Secretary General of the United Nations stop and think what would have happened to him if he had been monitored investigated or in any way harassed while he was a student here at McAllister. Above and loved and embraced and involved in what democracy in faith and freedom is really all about we do have to have good intelligence. We do you have to have a tremendous awareness of what's going on in the world, but we really don't ever have to give in to our fears about the world our fears about the world largely come out of our ignorance and the more we can share with each other the more we can travel the more we can interview and get to know a people who work overseas of students who come from overseas the more bacon see the vitality and vibrancy of the freedom and prosperity that we share as a result of that freedom. I think the more secure and safe we're going to be will always depend on Good government, good strong wise courageous senators and good bureaucrats to raise questions and also a free press to expose us all whether we're right or wrong. And usually I think the Press is wrong, but it's good being exposed and let him have the debate and we can argue it out in the open then and by and large we are better off being ourselves and enjoying our freedom indeed celebrating our freedom in such a way that everybody else wants to be a part of it. Andrew Young the former civil rights worker US ambassador to the United Nations former Congressman the two-term mayor of Atlanta the final speaker at 50 years the Mondale lectures on public service play Forum was held yesterday at the Humphrey Institute at the University of Minnesota. Andrew Young said the press in his view is almost always wrong. We like to think that most of the time we're right but alas, Maricopa Maricopa, we made a grievous error today identifying the second speaker is David Aaron. Well, it wasn't David are in a tall. It was Walter Pincus award-winning journalist talking about his experiences with the FBI in our apologies. If you missed a part of the noon hour today, we're going to be re broadcasting this program at 9 tonight. I can hear thanks for tuning in today. Public affairs programming on NPR is supported by the Minneapolis office of shandwick international a public relations firm dedicated to helping clients. Tell their stories through local National and international services. NPR listeners are movers and shakers. They have a strong voice in their communities want to be hurt become an NPR program sponsor find out more call Sarah at 651-290-1249. You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. We have a cloudy Sky 69 degrees at Kennedy FM 91.1 Minneapolis. And st. Paul partly cloudy through the afternoon fairly brisk winds with a high temperature reaching the low 80s partly cloudy tonight with a low in the 60s partly cloudy pretty warm tomorrow with a high near 90 degrees.