(00:00:25) Good morning, and Welcome to our New Year's Eve edition of midday here on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could tune in. So what are ya (00:00:33) for senior us our shares qualms (00:00:37) about Precision Tracy today. I'm addressing you for the last time as Russian president. I have made a decision. I have contemplated this long and hard today on the last day of the outgoing Century. I am resigning Russian president Boris Yeltsin saying that he wants to make way for new leadership with the start of the new year. He went on Russian to national television today to announce it. He is stepping down as President of Russia election will be held in March to formally replace Yeltsin in the meantime prime minister Vladimir Putin whose popularity has soared as the war in chechnya has raged on prime minister Vladimir Putin will serve as acting president. Russia during this first hour of. Midday. We're going to take a closer. Look at Boris yeltsin's career his unexpected resignation and try to learn a little bit more about what happens next. Who is this Vladimir Putin and what might we expect from the new Russia in the New Year Miller stirrer is joining us and is to stir as a columnist with the Russian news Services Bestia former adviser to Soviet leaders, Khrushchev and Brezhnev and currently a senior fellow at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey Institute Professor Patty Dale is with us. He is chair of the new Russian studies department at st. Olaf College in Northfield, and we also invite you to join our conversation. We're talking this our about the resignation of Russian president Boris Yeltsin, and if you'd like to join in give us a call here, six five one two, two seven six thousand 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800 to for 22828. Now before we get started with our discussion President Clinton issued a short statement about an hour ago on the Announcement and let's hear what President Clinton had to say. Not long ago. I (00:02:27) had about a 20-minute phone conversation with President Boris Yeltsin who today insist historic tenure as Russia's democratically elected president. Under his leadership since 1991 the Russian people have faced the unprecedented challenge of building a new democracy and a new life after Decades of corrosive communist rule. His lasting achievement has been dismantling the Communist system and creating a vital Democratic process within a constitutional framework. The fact that prime minister Putin assumes responsibility today is acting president in accordance with the Constitution is the latest example of President yeltsin's achievement. The relationship between the United States and Russia under President Yeltsin his produced genuine progress for both our people 5,000 strategic nuclear weapons have been dismantled. Our nuclear weapons are no longer targeted at each other. We have worked together to eliminate nuclear weapons from the other states of the former Soviet Union. Russia has withdrawn its troops from the Baltic Nations. And now it's troops are serving alongside Americans to maintain peace in the Balkans. In fact, Russia was instrumental in achieving the peace agreement in Kosovo. Of course, we have also had our differences but the starting point for our relationship has always been how Russia and America can work together to advance our common interests in that spirit. I look forward to working with acting President Putin as the Russian people began the process of making the transition from one democratically-elected president to another The president Yeltsin, let me convey my appreciation again for the work we have done together. Hillary and I extend our warmest wishes to him Naina and their family Thank you very much. I have no plans to do that. Yeah, but I liked him because he was always very forthright with me. He always did exactly what he said he would do. And he was willing to take chances to try to improve our relationship to try to improve democracy in Russia. He took the Russian troops out of the Balkans. He recently agreed to take them out of Moldova and Georgia. We got rid of all those nuclear weapons in the other states of the former Soviet Union. We got rid of thousands of nuclear weapons. He's committed to start to and I hope it will be ratified by the Russian Duma so we can quickly move to start three and reduce our nuclear arsenals even further. I liked him because I think he genuinely deplored communism he lived with it. He saw it and he believed that democracy was the best system. I think it was in every fiber of his being and We had our arguments we had our fights. we had our genuine disagreement, but about our national interests from time to time, but I think that the Russian people are well served to have a leader who honestly believe that their vote sought to determine who was running the show in Russia and what the future direction of the country should be (00:06:17) President Bill Clinton speaking about an hour ago. Once again, Russian columnist and Humphrey Institute senior fellow Miller stirrers with us as is Professor Patty Dale who's the head of the Russian studies department at st. Olaf College in Northfield, we're talking about the Yeltsin announcement today that he is stepping down as President of Russia. And again, we invite you to join our conversation. Give us a call here at 6512276 thousand 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight Professor Dale Professor stora. Thank you for joining us this morning. Good morning Professor Stewart. I let me start with you. Were you as surprised as many of us were that this announcement came today? (00:07:02) Yes, I was surprised. For that mister, Yeltsin would stay in the office until June. But at the same time, I must say quite frankly that his move was a real statements like move and he even stole the show from the Times Square and the millennial celebration throughout the (00:07:25) world the Russians Professor Dale Russian seem pretty happy with this stock markets sword today. What do you make of that? Well, mr. Putin is very popular. I disagree with many aspects of president President Clinton's assessment, which I think was altogether too Rosie. And what I think is going on is that the Yeltsin political Clan is changing leaders and this is a good moment for mr. Putin to assume the leadership of this political self-protection. And the reason it's a good moment right now is because mr. Putin is very popular because of the war in chechnya, which I see as sort of electorally driven Butchery. So I'm afraid President Clinton's assessment of you know, a democratic transfer of power whilst accurate in the details is is rather Rosie. I think the Yeltsin Clan is changing leadership and keeping itself in power Mel our store. I would you agree that this is largely a calculated political (00:08:41) move. Well, of course, it's a largely calculated political move Mister Yeltsin had several reasons to resign first reason was personal his health. It was quite obvious that he couldn't continue because of his ill health. The second reason is his sense of History. He wants to be remembered As a man who defeated communism in Russia who began the democratization of the Russian State and that's why he wants to go into the history books as a hero not as a villain or a railing and helpless and hopeless political animal. The third reason is of course completely political. He understands that. Mr. Putin has real chances to get elected and giving him these three months as an acting president. He supports all his chances and he needs put in and this is the fourth reason. I called the fourth reason clean Nixon Ford combination. If you remember Nixon resigned under the condition that mr. Ford will pardon him somehow. Mr. Yeltsin seems that mr. Putin can defend him after he resigns not so much him but his family because his family is involved in some very questionable financial and economic deals and it's vulnerable from the lowest point of view and mr. Putin can defend him can secure for him retirement for him and for his family without the interference of law these four reasons. I think defined his decision to resign now over the (00:10:43) years. We have heard repeatedly in this country that you know, Yeltsin may have had his problems but he was the Democratic alternative and by golly we needed him to stay in power lest. The Communists would return or evil authoritarians would take power in Russia. And the Cold War would resume number one was at analysis ever accurate and number two. Should we be disturbed now that mr. Yeltsin is no longer in office. Yes, the the analysis was accurate but there are unfortunate consequences from that the Democracy or the the manifestations of democracy that we've seen in Russia are if you like democracy by Design democracy institutions rules and indeed a constitution of December 1993 designed to keep Yeltsin in power now that is not democracy in a democracy. The rules are more powerful than the individuals President Clinton for example could not run for a third term the rules forbid it but what we've seen in Russia are rules contrived to keep this man in power and to be sure he's leaving power and transferring power in accordance with those rules, but those rules are of questionable stature and I do not think that we can say with confidence that that we have a democratic political system in Russia now large Dora. (00:12:14) No, I wouldn't. Be there the point is everything is relative in our life and in comparison with the United States or developed Democratic era countries of the Western Europe, of course democracy in Russia is quite questionable one, but if you compare democracy in Russia with Communism regime and even with Gorbachev's perestroika, it's a great Great Leap Forward and it was done in 10 years after 70 years of Communist Regime and after 300 years of absolute regain of Russian Czar and it was done bloodlessly. I am not talking now about chechnya without Revolution without Civil War and Mister Yeltsin somehow can claim that it was him who Introduce this kind of democracy maybe fledgling maybe not complete. But even our constitution, of course, it gives almost unheard of power to the president. But at the same time he is restricted by the Constitution. He can't run for the search term. He can't overrule Duma our Parliament and the other of course checks and balances which are again, I stress the are not ideal. They are sometimes used as a tool of a president. But if you compare with our past, it's a great of course success and great progress. Everything is relative (00:14:04) Vladimir Putin apparently put out a statement on the internet not so long ago talking about what he described as a third way for Russia one. That would involve a regulated market economy a fairly paternalistic State. He said there was no chance of a western-style democracy in Russia. What do you folks suppose? That means what? How does that translate to our ears? Well, I've not been able to read that statement but it does not surprise me. And in fact, it is consistent with the the institutions that I see developing in Russia. The state will remain a massively involved in the economy and the economy will not be regulated by rules investment procedures are not transparent and we have a small group of extremely powerful extremely affluent people that sometimes we call the oligarchs they include buddies berezovsky who have one foot in the political system and one foot in in the economy. And they are using their political influence to avoid regulation and constraint and I think this is further evidence for why we are not seeing the consolidation of of either a market regulated economy or of rule regulated democracy in Russia Belarus Dora. What does that that statement say to you about Vladimir Putin's plans for (00:15:41) Russia? Well all economies at this moment in the transitional period from centralized subsidized run by the state economy, true free market or fee market-oriented economy. At first it was done harshly without any preparation and we got what we got just a few people became multimillionaires o'night Delia Years and the majority of the Russians live below the poverty line, which is quite different from the poverty line in the united states in the United States. The poverty line is $14,000 a year for the family and in the Soviet Union Russia $14,000 a year is just a dream. That's why we need some kind of state interference in our free market economy to rectify what was done quite badly before in the first years of yeltsin's presidency. I mean what mr. Guide our and true buys did with the so-called privatization of Russian economy, and maybe the smooth transition would be easier to achieve if the state also Participates and there's you know nowadays they are dialogues going on everywhere. Whether Western kind of capital is especially American capitalism is the only way for every country and you have to take into account the big round of Russian economy. The level of Russia's economic potential and of course the situation with the people who live in a very bad conditions and that's why when mr. You put in means the third way, he doesn't mean something between democracy and communism. He means middle way between the Surface economy of American style and completely centralized economy, which we had before the dissolution of the Junior (00:18:15) achmed's on the line for Minnetonka with a comment on the Boris Yeltsin resignation resignation. Go ahead sir. (00:18:22) Hi, how you doing? Just fine. I'm trying to say the my opinion for Yeltsin and very sad at all. When I remember Yeltsin Yeltsin is like I remember Hitler when he's killing his own people or the Jewish people the right now when I heard every day watching TV or MBR and Robert Held our second time, so else in he killed his own people. He killing the judge me and the Muslim people without nothing without no reason so mr. Boot him my opinion. He's a power-hungry. He's going to be president in his country and he killing his people. I'm trying to get the American people to do something for the Yeltsin and the Russians the killing their own people. They don't even look the side for Humanity and I'm trying to see mr. Clinton do something for like Kosovo you do them when the Serbian skimming the Muslim people for the Kosovo. I want to say happy holiday all of you guys (00:19:17) by thanking to you. Thank you for your call as a practical matter. Does the United States will it will the United States have any influence whatsoever on the new Russian government in terms of policy and chechnya know and we met will see the increase of anti-American sentiment in the Russian government the Western World in general and America in particular is blamed for many of the ills of the Russian economy. Rightly or wrongly I but that is the case and just as the Chechen war is politically popular in Russia. So is anti-americanism so we may see a more anti-American posture from the Putin government. Would you agree with that Miller (00:20:11) stora? Yes. The point is that Russia is Not Yugoslavia. Mr. Yeltsin was not milosevich because Miss because Mister Yeltsin has no clear power behind him and do remember when he was in China. He reminded. Mr. Clinton that Russia is still nuclear superpower. And this makes a decisive difference. Nobody can now really interfere in the chechnya war because it's impossible to do you can't start the bombing Moscow as you bombed Belgrade, but it doesn't make the war in chechnya. Just War I am personally against what is going on now in chechnya and in my writings, I criticized, mr. Yeltsin and mr. Putin, but on the other hand, I don't think that the United States or the Western European countries or International Financial. oceans Canada, really Push Russia toward peaceful solution of this conflict. It's impossible nowadays, especially that mr. Putin's Faith as a future president is very much connected with the success of Russian armed forces in chechnya. And he will do everything to take grozny to subjugate the chechens and to deliver chechnya to Russia. Russia's nationalist (00:21:49) feelings malar story before we wrap up this first half hour of our program. I wanted to ask you there's a biography of Yeltsin out written by Leon Aron and in that book. Mr. Aaron says that Boris Yeltsin will go down in Russian history as Russia's Abraham Lincoln or perhaps Charles de Gaulle. Would you agree with (00:22:12) that? No, I do you see. Mr. I don't know. I don't know why he is so in Activate it with the main character of his book, of course, not of course Mister Yeltsin isn't Charles their goal. Of course. Mr. Yeltsin is not a from Lincoln, but for Russia for Russia, that's the point not for the whole world, but for Russia, he looks like Lincoln. He looks like the goal. He looks like he isn't he looks like and unfortunately, we couldn't produce any other leader who could preside over the dissolution of the Soviet Union. He was the best what we had and he grabbed the power by the way, the goal said that in the 20th century, you never conquer you just grab the power and Mister Yeltsin did it and I also very much I don't agree with President Clinton that Yeltsin was anti-communist Etc. He was bitter against Gorbachev. Was curvatures are Church enemy and this enmity pushed him towards Democrats. He didn't come to Democrats. We free willingly free willingly. He was pushed by the logic of political infighting inside the politburo and then of course his confrontation with orbital that's why to say that he was a link on it would be grossly exaggerated (00:23:49) 50 years from now very briefly. Mr. Storrow will Russians remember Gorbachev is the Man Standing on the tank or will or will they resemble remember him as as frail? (00:24:02) It depends. It depends you'll see Mister Yeltsin resigned to imprint in the memory of the Russian people and of the whole world and the history books his figure standing on time. Challenging communism, of course. This picture is much more pleasant than the figure of completely physically destroyed man who just pretends to rule the country. I it seems to me that history will be much kinder to him then his (00:24:41) contemporaries. Thank you for joining us sir. Appreciate. It. Mellors Dora who is a columnist with the Russian news Services. Vesta is a senior fellow at the Humphrey Institute at the University of Minnesota. We're talking this our about the resignation of Russian president Boris. Yeltsin unexpected announcement made today on Russian national television Professor Patty Dale is with us. He is the chair of the new Russian studies department at st. Olaf College in Northfield, and we'd love to have you join our conversation. Give us a call here at 6 5 1 2 2 7 6 thousand 6 5 1 Two two seven six thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800 to for 22828. Enjoy the sights and sounds of some of Europe's most famous (00:25:27) performance spaces on Minnesota public radio's magic of Music Tour of Italy. The nine-day trip includes (00:25:34) guided sightseeing tours lodging at four and five star hotels gourmet meals (00:25:39) and tickets to special performances including an evening at the (00:25:42) La Scala Opera House in Milan. It's (00:25:45) Minnesota public radio's Italy tour April 27th through May 7th for information and reservations call 1-800 (00:25:52) to 287 123. By the way, a reminder that programming and NPR is supported by Sony Pictures Classics presenting all about my mother in 1999 Khan film festival winner playing now at the Uptown Theater in Minneapolis. All right, here's your New Year's Eve weather forecast. We can look for some light snow or flurries across Northern Minnesota through the afternoon. Not much to speak of partly cloudy to Sunny. Is across the southern half of the state with highs today on the mild side low 20s in the Northeast upper 40s in the southwest New Year's Eve tonight. We can look for some flurries in the north may be some freezing drizzle in the Northeast partly cloudy elsewhere with lows from zero in the northwest of the mid-20s in the Southeast tomorrow. We start the new year with a cloudy Sky, maybe some flurries in parts of Minnesota with highs tomorrow 10 above in the Northwest upper 30s in the south east partly cloudy for the Twin Cities this last day of the year in the Twin City area with a high in the upper 30s partly cloudy tonight with a low in the low 20s tomorrow. We ring in the New Year in the Twin Cities with a cloudy Sky light snow and a high temperature in the low 30s right now around the region Duluth with a cloudy Sky 16, st. Cloud cloudy and 26 Rochester partly cloudy in 30 Fargo cloudy and 27 Sioux Falls sunny and 36 Twin City temperature is 28 degrees and skies are partly cloudy. Invitation to join Catherine land for and me tonight here on Minnesota Public Radio special New Year's Eve broadcast will be on the air starting at 9 o'clock with some music commentary news. Keep you posted on the Y2K issue will go right on past midnight at least until one o'clock. Find out how the Y2K thing plays out and maybe Beyond so hope you can tune in make us part of your New Year's Eve. That's tonight starting at 9 o'clock over the noon hour today a great chance to get some last-minute Y2K questions answered second hour of our midday program. This hour were talking about the resignation of Boris yeltsin's President of Russia. Patty Dale is with us chair of the Russian studies department at st. Olaf and Nick has joined us now. He is the chair of the history department at Hamline University in Saint Paul morning, Nick. Good morning, Gary. Were you surprised at the announcement this morning? (00:28:17) I certainly was It cuts you very much. I've got about six o'clock this morning. As a matter of fact when I flipped on the radio, but if we put it in perspective, it's just it's in a way a marvelous because one thing that Yeltsin had done he was the master of the politics of the unpredictable from his first rise to National and international attention in way back in the late 80s in 1987. When he first defied Gorbachev at and inner sanctum or politburo meeting in Moscow and all the way down to his more recent behavior of unexpectedly shuffling the government's around or creating certain unexpected public faux pas. He always managed to keep everyone off guard and even yesterday Vladimir Putin had to take the stage for a Kremlin appearance where Yeltsin apparently declined to appear, but Putin was speaking as if the president was preparing for his first I mean trip to Israel and was still on the job and so forth. So I would have to conclude that even Putin was caught off guard today (00:29:25) in do you expect huge changes in u.s. Russian relations the result of this change in government in Russia, (00:29:33) you know, I think absolutely not Gary and in a way one of yeltsin's more enduring legacies will be that he facilitated a transition to where us American russian-american relations are probably on a fairly permanent course, it is not going to be the course that let us say the Bush Administration imagined at the end of the Cold War of some sort of World Partnership for peace or even as President Clinton implied in his remarks today. It is going to be a course where they clearly cooperate on some issues. They clearly take strong exception too much of our foreign policy from Yugoslavia to Nato and they clearly will show that they have the right to exercise their own. Policy and National Security interests chechnya being the most obvious example today and they will not be the totalitarian superpower rival to the United States ever again, but they certainly will chart their own (00:30:34) course Bill your question, please (00:30:37) thank you Russia in regards to the Middle East. Do you think having a new leader ousting Yeltsin? Do you think they're a Middle East policy will change do you think they'll be more influential or less influential with the Middle East countries? That's your tail. (00:30:52) I don't know the the epicenter of instability and attention will be the Caspian Sea because of its oil and gas reserves and number of countries including the United States have interest in that area. It's unstable because the oil has to be transported through areas where there is internal war Civil War political conflict and I don't know whether Russia will be able to increase its influence in that area. Min already one pipeline has been built to the Turkish coast of the Mediterranean Sea and further pipelines of this nature will by Will bypass Russia. So it is possible. That Russian influence in the area will actually decrease but time will tell but I think Professor Hayes. (00:31:56) Well, I the worst-case scenario is that the Russian government will seize any opportunity to Ally with an anti-western radical state from North Korea to perhaps even Beijing or radical middle eastern states Iraq, or perhaps Libya. I don't think that that is going to be the course in point of fact the signals for the last few months are actually the opposite and if you consider the way they've Justified or attempted to justify in the first phase the war in chechnya pedal is quite correct in pointing out to the sensitivity and the focus on the Caspian caucuses area, but keep in mind the way Vladimir Putin defended the policy had a large editorial. What was it three weeks ago. So in the New York Times trying to argue to the American public that Russian policy is in a way aligned with us on this that they are combating Islamic terrorism Islamic fundamentalism in Russian public opinion. One of the greatest anxieties is what they call the road from the south the instability of the Islamic states to their South and they are sending the message that it would be better to have them as a partner in dealing with radical Islamic middle eastern states and have them as an (00:33:19) antagonist. We're talking this our about the resignation of Russian president Boris Yeltsin, he is being replaced by acting President Vladimir Putin who has been serving as Russia's prime minister elections have now been called for March 26th and joining us this hour to bring us up to date on what this all means for Russia for the United States and for the world professors, Nick Hayes from Hamlin / Sir, Patty Dale from st. Olaf and if you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call here at 6512276 thousand 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800 to for 2282865122760041. 802 for to 2828 Hakeem your question, please (00:34:09) yeah, I want to tell my opinion about what I think about the Russian president the way I see it is that he was a murderer terribly wrong murderer. And Putin is the same as him, you know, it doesn't make a difference democracy doesn't give you the license to kill your own people. I mean the United States supposed to do something about the pride of the civilian Church me and rashes using chemical weapon every weapon that you can think of that was panned by the UN to destroy a Muslim people just because they are Muslims (00:34:48) basically same let we talked about this a little bit earlier in the program. But let me ask you what is it that you would like to see or you think the u.s. Is a practical matter could do about the situation in (00:35:02) chechnya. I would like to see the u.s. Stopped giving know any eight to the rations as long as they killing their own people. I would like to see the rash on to stop murdering people for no reason. I would like to see chechnya become a free state as they wish or have them refrán de more some type of Freedom, you know. All (00:35:25) right. Well, let's let's get some comment here. First of all very briefly. How much Aid Are We Now giving the United States? That is how much 8 are we giving the Russians? Not a lot and the amounts that have been promised in the past have never fully materialized in Moscow moreover much. That Aid has actually been paid to to Western corporations and American corporations to provide services in Russia. So the answer is not much and I'm afraid that we could not expect to exercise influence over the Russian leadership by withholding this item. Nick Hayes has the has the Russian position the war in chechnya has it hurt Russia internationally or as as the rest of the world essentially turned its back on this issue. (00:36:22) Well first let me just follow up on the issue of aid. I've always over the last decade kind of paraphrase that the Russians pretended to reform and we pretended to help in reality. Our Aid was largely symbolic and largely there to Curry the favor or indicate our favor for the existing political Elites in terms of its influence on the society as a whole. It did not really have any effect at all, but in terms of Larger issues and how we could how Russia has fared coming out of the war in chechnya. I would say it fared remarkably. Well in a certain cynical position Above All Else the criticism from the Europeans, which it's probably most sensitive about has been very very benign in mild. Tony Blair after the elections was immediately congratulating Vladimir Putin after the recent elections and there has been no really significant criticism or interference by the European Community or the organization security cooperation in Europe that would change Russian policy and then ironically and I think tragically when Yeltsin delivered the message the United States remember that Russia is still a nuclear power. It was a rather brutal way of bringing things back almost to the bottom line of Cold War politics and to tell Washington remember we are a nuclear power and we will act as Please in these matters and you will remember why you do not interfere in our policies. (00:38:04) His Vladimir Putin President Clinton today made a point of mentioning during his statement Boris. Yeltsin support for nuclear arms reductions in policies. Is that likely to continue under mr. Putin (00:38:19) or probably they have indicated immediately after the election. They indicated that they would be able to move ahead now with the ratification of the start to the major pending nuclear arms reduction agreement. Although I read that in part Gary in the context of the dispute over chechnya. Again. It's almost a classic replay of the way politics worked with the Soviet Union in the 1970s. It always was a quid pro quid in which Moscow would send a message to Washington that are domestic affairs our own domestic affairs. And the priority with what Washington is nuclear arms reduction will work on nuclear arms reduction. If you do not interfere in our domestic affairs, it was used to be the old human rights cases in a way Putin is sending the same message will handle chechnya as we see it fit to handle chechnya. You will not interfere. And by the way we can offer you this larger security agreement, which is in the long-term much more important to the United States (00:39:21) Patty Dale. I would agree with Nick's assessment. I think it's very well. Put mmm now these elections the date for the elections have been moved as a con as a result of the Yeltsin resignation. They were scheduled initially for June. They've been moved up to March 26 any significance to that. Well, this is required by the Constitution. There is no office of Vice President of the Russian Federation the Constitution provides that in the absence of the And the Prime Minister assumes the presidency and elections must be held within three months. So the significance is that the letter of the Constitution is being maintained. But as I argued earlier, the real meaning is is the defining of a fortunate moment for the maintenance of the Yeltsin political Clan Mullis truer use the word family. I use the word clan. We mean the same thing and we mean a political a corrupt political Self Protection group. Mmm, Nick Hayes. Is there any way given the fact they're going to have these elections on March 26 that anybody can mount a serious campaign against Vladimir Putin? (00:40:41) Well, I'm afraid the irony of Yeltsin Legacy is of course Gary that the only party that could mount a serious opposition that actually Has a chance at winning would be the Communist party and that is not likely to occur due to the overwhelming power of the Kremlin Elite the advantage they have right now coming out of the last elections and the bottom line that they can control the election this March just as they did in the last major elections in the summer of 1996. (00:41:13) Nick Hayes is quite right to the only party that could mount a challenge is the Communist party because the Communist party is still the only party in Russia and you know, we make the mistake of viewing these so-called political parties, as you know, large organizations that connect Elites two masses that is not true in Russia. The the party that Putin allegedly represents came into existence just a few months ago. It has no platform other than support for the existing government and its only merits in the eyes of people who will vote for it is its pursuit of that of the Chechen conflict. So yes, there is no organization that can mount a challenge to Putin other than the Communist party. Is there any reason to believe now with new leadership that Russia will become less Popped less influenced by what we have been calling criminal elements in Russia. It's possible. But you know again time will tell it will become less corrupt when a future leader sees that it is more in his interests to enforce the rule of law and he begins to do that by arresting and putting on trial corrupt Central and local government officials. But on the contrary what we see what we have seen so far is indeed the non-prosecution and the pardoning of of corrupt officials and I think not Astra was was quite right in in making the the Nixon Ford comparison Putin will be elected. So and he will protect Yeltsin. So I think for the immediate future corruption will continue in (00:43:08) Russia nikkei's well, I do think last summer Gary I was gay. In a series of interviews with various persons and politics and economic life in Russia, and I tried to throw this question out what will happen or what will be the future of corruption and I do apologize for always speaking in such a cynical voice today. I guess that's the answer is many of the leading criminal figures already. They tend to Olga legitimate after a while by that. I mean that the kind of primitive stage of corruption the outrageous Corruption of the early 90s obviously cannot be repeated because most of the state assets are already stolen the criminal elements themselves become more Consolidated more orderly, you know after a while they want to send their children off to Harvard and Yale to they want a stable life and the system itself is developing. I think much more of a sense of order it will always be a inherently corrupt system, but the outrageousness that Characterized it's a from 1992 to about really to August 1998 when the economy fell through I think that phase is thank God behind (00:44:22) them. Mmm. Now I ask mellors store this question a little earlier this half hour and I want to put it to each of you. What do you suppose the abiding picture of Boris? Yeltsin will be 50 years around. Is it going to be that man standing on the tank fighting against the communist hardliners or is it going to be this frail weak? Sick man that we've become accustomed to seeing the last few years both and and correctly. So I mean in 1991, I mean Yelp and the winter of 1991 Yeltsin was extremely significant in preventing the the power Ministries the old bureaucratic organizations of Communism from assuming power. And I mean, his role was real it was significant and it should be remembered but following that he was preserved in power by what I call democracy by Design. He acquired a corrupt political Clan around himself and I think secondly can now be seen as the father of the Clans political system in Russia and I see this this self-protection state continuing into the future (00:45:47) McKay's well, Gary, No, I to be honest, I think to really describe or understand Boris. Yeltsin requires a Shakespeare maybe a Russian novelist. Look Dusty ask you to really capture the character not a political commentator or biographer. I IC Yeltsin and I think he will be remembered in a long centuries old tradition of gut somewhat autocratic populist Russian leaders. And we tend to see I think things too much in terms of the dichotomies probably in the average Russian mind. They see it as a whole it all makes sense. I mean above all else Yeltsin has been a certain sort of working-class populist figure. He's had a good Instinct for the average mentality of the country from his early days as a Communist party boss out in the urals to his days in Moscow to finally his days in the Kremlin secondly did he have a sense of democracy? I to me, it's always been Essence of democracy was you get the other guys out and you get your guys in but yet there has always been within that one of his most significant contributions for all of the corruption for all of the cynicism is Moscow today has to pay attention to what the average man or woman on the street thinks they may have to buy the vote. They may have to manipulate it but they do have to be sensitive to that power that has come to the average person m in terms of politics in a real sense. I think from the late communist days probably from brush next time on maybe Khrushchev before him there had been a crisis of power at the top the political Central executive power have fragmented and decline in become ineffectual. I think yeltsin's real political contribution. Is He restored in autocratic strong presidential government. He may not have been the man to exercise the power but that is the Legacy. He leads leaves to his predecessors or his successors. Excuse me, and Above All Else, he basically salvaged what remains of Russia maybe this is what the war in chechnya is about that the disintegration of the old Empire. He had to draw the line in the sand somewhere. He did kind of reasserted Russia as a power even though not a superpower and restored a bit of national pride in the Country (00:48:09) Gentleman we're out of time but I appreciate your coming in and joining us today to talk about the resignation of Russian president Boris. Yeltsin our guests this our professor Patty Dale who's chairman of the Russian studies department at st. Olaf College in Northfield and Nick Hayes who is the chair of the history department at Hamlin in st. Paul Monday Tuesday or Wednesday? Boring old news Thursday, very boring old news Friday. (00:48:46) It's Word of Mouth a radio guide to be our With Chris Roberts at 6 p.m. On Minnesota Public Radio (00:48:59) five minutes now before