Hey, good morning. Welcome to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm very active glad you could join us this morning. Minnesota has a lively race for governor this year several well-known candidates. No clear favourite. So you might assume that there would be lots of interest in the election this year instead. If you believe the experts voter turnout is going to be lower than ever and not just here in Minnesota interest in politics seems to be down all across the country are guess this our former Minnesota Democratic senator, Eugene McCarthy says, one of the major reasons for that lack of interest is the continuing attempt by reformers to take the politics out of politics Sandra McCarthy who is probably best known for his historic 1968 presidential campaign represented Minnesota's 4th congressional district for 10 years and serve 12 years in the Senate before leaving the senate in 1971. So Sunny's run twice for president as an independent. He's written some 20 books including four volumes of poetry and Senator McCarthy is now out with a new book.Call no-fault politics. It's a series of essays and a wide variety of subjects the damage. He says that's being done by those reformers the problems raised by Washington's preoccupation with Scandal and the Reliance on special prosecutors administration's foreign policy or lack of it even some tips for sorting through candidates for the US Senate Senator McCarthy return to Minnesota from his home in Virginia this past weekend to receive an award from his alma mater St. John's Prep School, and he's been good enough to stop by our Studios this hour to talk about his book is views on the political scene and take your questions as well. I guess this our form of Minnesota senator Eugene McCarthy, and if you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call or Twin City area number is 227-6002 276 thousand. I'll try the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll-free, and that number is 1 800 to +422-828-227-6004. 1 800-242-2828.Jenny McCarthy, thanks for coming in today. I'll write you had a rough year last year health-wise. I know a lot of people would be interested to find out how you're feeling. You look pretty good. I feel pretty good. That's good. I think it's trouble is over good back back on your feet. And and that's terrific why why are so few people interested in politics these days you think Will get a part of this is the lack of issues. I think I was talking some young people the other day. I sure will. You know, when I went from ran for congress issue or NATO of the Marshall Plan the United Nations and civil rights and national health insurance. Those were the central issues of debate. Where is now it's hard to know. What is Central and campaign reform Josie issues in part, but also the Machinery of politics has changed. So it is very difficult to get involved. If you're even if you want to you can be anything but a Republican or Democrat for example for young people are inclined to be more revolutionary but even to participate in Is the two parties we should legalize themselves by the federal election law is very difficult and unchallenging. You're pretty you're pretty rough in your book on the so-called innocence going to be a good government types who've been trying to clean up politics JC and after JC before John Gardner in after John Gardner is the politics before it was Involve participation and Anna with Olaf and politics has become more and more close as even in Minnesota was used to have very open political system is Musa party designation and restricted primary reason and disposition do curved any dissent even within the party the reforms though and all been done in the name of opening up the process and getting people involved and letting the little guy had his say person to use to declaration. Instead we pledge Our lives our fortunes and our sacred honor to God you would have said why don't you just played your lies and your sacred honor enough to $1,000 but it's kind of a full measure of patriotic devotion, you know, it it is really doesn't encourage participation, but it is curb some participation but in doing that it covers the politics are political action of many other more people. Theoretically if you have the government control the process by which the government has chosen you say, oh that's pure democracy, but it isn't assistant we have now or movie charge of having the government Finance politics of the same system. Germany had enforcement Adolf Hitler was elected. So you're clearly not in favor of Public Finance know that's right. That's the worst public financing and the second worse is to set it up so that you'd have corporate controller politics, but that's not as bad as the government control. What about the people who say wow? Big money control politics these days and when when somebody gives a lot of money usually the soft money so called soft money. They're the ones that are going to get the attention that buy the access and they will get their bidding done by the politicians and everybody else will be left out and when it comes to a point where major political skits from corporations who have given political power to But what would a Wilson said? There's not a person who said you should never call a car for a car per person. You give it to an institution which has limited social responsibility and that comes to affect the Congress and the other thing. Of police station limits on regular physical contributions opens the way up for backdoor contributions enforce off money. And as long as you have the First Amendment respected, there's no real way you can talk people who spend any money to Supreme Court has said that in there, right? Well, you know you say hello who's going to limit the time? Walter Cronkite has a talks about him time bank. We should be set up for politics and time will be a lot of the candidates whose go to pick the candidate to get the time or how is it going to be a lot of you going to have water sit there at the window and say come and make an application and they finally do that now is a vintage aside rationing timer political money on political participation. Are you also suggest though that we shouldn't essentially ban TV political ads will I see that's one thing to do I have said you should ban religion and politics from television. Let's let them advertised detergents and Automobiles and thanks for the cat hurt you was very much. if if you can handle television ads or on television time so that it's equitably distributed fairly distributed by the only thing you do is not to have it if I can get enough Knowledge from radio. And from the press to cut. The best political time. We had four communication was when radio came on and before television came on at Roosevelt was a was a real radio. Politician is it radio gave you the means of competing with Monopoly, press like the Chicago Tribune still honor or to Saint Paul paper for that matter and television and turned it back again in the Monopoly control TV debates, though are widely. A lot of people watch the debates at least some of them and a great opportunity for people to get to know the candidates. Will you get to know them in a way but it do you get to know them in a better way if you have nothing but radio in the written press Television they put on a show. I meet you first you had to Bay Street and tell me about presidential debate should have the presidential candidates to be then they have his vice presidential candidates debate, which is ridiculous. Because if you really want to do the every kid president now so that I'm going to depend a lot on my vice-president. They ought to have the president the vice-president debate. Where is it raining there? Why is it could even if it was supposed to let me know Linda and Hillary Clinton debate you can bring in the whole family. Are you running like tigresa, you know, but three others are the respective wives and if you brought up an issue Hillary could have said bill you can have this issue. He wasn't doing well, she could jump over the ropes and tell him on the shoulder and said I'll take it from here. So it's if you catch to be a silly show and tell if it leads to that farmer Minnesota Center Eugene McCarthy is our guests this our Center McCarthy's out with a new book called no-fault politics and he stopped by our Studios today to talk about some of the ideas outlined in that book and it's not good in general about the political system in this country. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call or Twin City area number is 227-6002. 276 Thousand Oaks at the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll-free and that number would be one eight hundred to +422-828-227-6000 or one 800-242-2828. You are outlined in your book Senator. Some of the issues that should be talked about during the election campaigns this year. Some of which may or may never get to discuss one of which it has to do with the kind. Permanent underclass that's developed in this country what can be done about that people who clearly are not sharing in the in the wealth will be done, but it's very difficult to do it. I I think it's accepted Now by some of the social economic political thinkers, and we could carry probably 30 million people of its kind of dependence of the state and still the economy for serration probably get along better that if we tried to incorporate them in the workforce. So it's it's been institutionalized and accepted is that he's good for the economy to surplusage people because they're a drag we think Even though how we know the New World War two people whom they said would not work and couldn't work or what it worthwhile all turned out to be good workers and the same thing is true. Well, there's several things to be done. But one is it is it is a redistribution of work? Samuel Gompers years old labor leader said if one person is out of work without a redistributed go to work there is so he's included that is overly idealistic. But the Brookings institution recently published a report saying if the overtime being work, Could be redistributed it would take care of three million on my unemployed. Who we got to do away with it was the excessive overtime. The labor movement doesn't want to do that. And we ought to shorten the working time. For reasons of Florida employment but also because of the social consequences of when you have two parents working or one parent families parents had to be there in the morning when the children go off to school and one pair of Esau to be there when they're come back in the afternoon the six hour working day. Is really are working today anyway, cuz it takes almost an hour for most people to get to work and to get home. and Well, they had some hearings on. on pretty much the same problem, but the women who testified for welfare mothers and Nixon proposed it if you were a welfare mother. And your children were school age, you didn't take a job when it was offered to you would cut off your age and these women said, you know, we need to be at home to send their children off to school and be there when they come back as much as this woman said to women who are producing your insurance salesman. It was a pretty compelling argument. orenda It's both economically consequences, but also as social consequences and shorter working time. Any think American Business could compete successfully in the in the new Global Marketplace on the 6 hour work week is Taiwan news in Korea news on Nigerian soon Latin American American workers long-term are going to have to accept the fact that they just can't get paid as much as they have become accustomed to getting paid to have to make some sacrifices, but it it's been a mother but it would be all right to make some sacrifice cost to go up a little bit. In the same way that Costco coming for you. If you don't allow a cheap foreign Goods produced cheap labor overseas, but you would be making sacrifices for but it is a known cause labor movement. They never want shorter hours. Advance America fact in the Clinton campaign the indoor stove eight-hour day 6850 week year and plus overtime so that the labor movement is not very helpful. When you try to shorten hours. They want to work more time and they want overtime rather than what the doctor said you make some sacrifices if one person is out of work, but we're operating on Will last time we dealt with it was 38 with the wages and ours actually establish. 8-hour day is 50 weeks a year a previous to that. I guess it was Alfred. The Great was the first person to State our policy if we choose work 8 hours a day and sleep 8 hours a day and you had eight hours a day for in between Recreation and prayer and whatever else you wanted to do. So, I know it's 980 so weird. roughly a thousand years of Alfred the Great and Honda 50 years of wages and are attacked and about 75 years of Henry Ford II. Manoj C 8 hour day in the $5 a day payment. Henry said you had to give workers enough time. the drive to work Have you made it work 10 hours a day? They wouldn't have a 2 hours to come and go and buy 19. You were working with 6 hours a week or 6 days a week by 1926 Henry figured out that they had to give him a two-day weekend to all the weekend congestion. You can order Henry. Visit last great social thinking has his last question before we get to some callers hear are you were particularly critical of the of the use of the special prosecutor in the move toward special prosecutors in this country price of Clinton apparently and can of star are on a collision course of sorts of having to do with a subpoena that spin that's been issued now Oakland supposed to appear before the grand jury should he should he go to before the grand jury. Should they have a constitutional Showdown on this once and for all if what you think will I thought I failed to get a response to postpone legal case against Clinton. These are not great issues of state. So they don't have to be settled, you know, this idea that Justice delayed is Justice denied is not true. And this was a kind of justice that could have been delayed if it does involve Justice it but it is it is seen it once you saw her they say well. The trailer did internal contradiction e'rything if you have a Republican president Republican attorney general the application is that you can't trust him. So you say we're going to put a democrat in charge of the investigation. If you have a Republican president of the other way around you can't trust attorney general beyond the party would you could trust a Democrat Democrat say we can't trust and you don't trust our man when you said power with us and we don't trust you or so. You have to make your choice of two bodies. Neither of which is trusted and that's no way to proceed to indicate why she started why almost anything affect you the president has a special prosecutor. And if you do that why the whole order the administration of justice is interrupted Sparta Renaissance Center Eugene McCarthy is our guest this hour out with a new book called no-fault politics. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call Twin City area number again to 276 thousand to 276 thousand out side the Twin Cities 1 800 to +422-828-227-6000 or one 800-242-2828 John your question place is as bad as I know 1965. You were a co-sponsor of the Immigration Reform Bill and since then and a couple of times I read that use basic said that was a mistake. I wonder if you comment on you know, what were you thinking then? What happened in wide why you change your mind about that? I didn't change my mind about the 65 back. But what is Richard's been modified in the way in which it's been administered? Again, it was an exercise in ear responsible politics wouldn't instead of setting real quarters and limitations are they provided that people could bring all their relatives. So you had an automatic increase which was not contemplated in a great opening for a few so they can go back and get married in bringing the boy wife and children to go back and bring in their children, but you're not counted in it or wear as the original 65 Act was pretty good at it broke down the barriers of race and nationality, but the numbers We're left open and in consequence of is why the numbers coming in? Got out of control and not only that but they corporate other groups and we were really going around the world creating the political refugees in Vietnam and Korea. So it opened up the gates to people who either fly with us or or fought alone against the opposition their own country. We searched the whole new group 4 numbers were brought in so it wasn't a 65 act but the interpretation of it and then the modifications of where are creating immigrants now are you knowing African Asian countries argument is that it's really good for America to have as many diverse cultures as possible and hope that's open the doors so I don't know if that's true or not, but What we've always been previously always exercised pretty serious control or this island lot of people return back. I didn't meet the qualifications but it will give you a card with Freddy invited a Cuban dissidents to come in and and capsular shift him a couple of photos of criminals. We should not have happened. But once you open it up and set these general rules and if you're at it, it's if your head of the government, we don't like why you started set the stage come in. It used to be if you brought in an evergreen, they had to have an American sponsor. Oh, no, we almost actually immigrants to sponsor an American. Is the new standard because if you come in here to take all the support of some person who's on relief back to the phones Anthony your question for Senator McCarthy plays. I agree that we're kind of in a situation where the global economy factor is going to be changing our American the work relationship and tourism industry, but I'm also kind of curious what your opinion would be in terms of the ratio of executive compensation, especially at the CEO level compared to what a worker is taking home these days. Well, I don't know what you can consult one against the other is a racial but there's no question. But what the CEO has in many firms are greatly overpaid. He was Plato and Aristotle who said that the top ways you should never be more than six times the average. So if you think the average income of Americans sedative $40,000 that would say $240,000 would be an adequate income for top-level. I don't know whether you would take a plate or Aristotle standard but this whole thing of stock options and special concessions and is out of hand. Why is it bad as long as I mean as a practical matter if you were to redistribute all the all the money you're virtually all the money that the top CEOs make there so few of them that you wouldn't really affect very many people anyway, some of them are worth it, I guess because you're part of it comes out of there being in the office if you take the Income of the executives of Jessie, you know it it's the it's atrocious what they're paid for. really good development kind of destructive cultural Force I joined a little Virginia. There was a proposal to build deer Washington something called. This is America. And I said that you have gone too far. And Virginia Revere ejected. This is America there said they were satisfied with the Confederacy David your next question for Senator McCarthy. Do you see this current combative atmosphere between the president and his enemies in Congress and the house of Congress continuing past the next election. Do you think this will become the norm that the president will have to deal with? Do we have any president? I don't know who the disposition to do it. I think part of it what's involved in the case of the Republicans against Clinton goes back to the difference is reflection of the democratic Congress, although the Knicks and behavior was at a higher level of government and politics disposition to want to retaliate if you get any kind of a case. and you know you can I don't know you could find a few of them. We might break the speed limiter make it an issue. But yeah, I think so and Oh, I felt it. Took the Supreme Court should have said they couldn't really pursue the cases against Clinton until after he was out of office. Do you think based on what we've been told a present Clinton may have done? Do you think that those are amount to impeachable offenses? The basis for impeachment not very clear in the Constitution the founding fathers were afraid they were going to make it too easy to impeach people. So they made it very difficult. They expected their political movements to impeach people and if they want to make it very difficult and then they did these attacks on the president. It seems to be open the way to easier impeachment Which is less necessary now because of the two term limitation, This is the only have a president for 8 years at most if you're into a second term for No More Than 3 or 4 years. effective elements of the to turn limitations Iowa supposed to also a consideration when they adopted the amendment to change the date of the inauguration from March the forest back to January Russian anticipation Roosevelt second term is it in the. Between if you had elected a new Preston and old president would stay in office until March 4th, and he was supposed to do all kinds of damage between November and In March, if you do he was out with the two term limitation. Because you be a lame duck with the to turn limitation. You becomes a lame duck Divinity gets nominated get sworn in trash for years to the works for years and two months or something. You have no respect for me that he's kind of crazy dispositions to control the legends of the presidency every so often they do it by amending the Constitution. That's one of the worst and Second is a tutor the movie the date of the was bad enough. Second was a two-term limitation in the third is he may have it on presidential disability? which was uncalled for you can create all kinds of trouble if it if it was really a showdown on it because it didn't cause her confusion of the legislative executive fired dealing with a situation which is almost unlikely to arise if I had the time I'd rather be governed by Wilson's wife's and by Spiro Agnew or Minnesota Center Eugene McCarthy is our guest this hour again. If you'd like to join our conversation to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800. 242-282-8227 6001 802-422-8280 get this more callers this moment. I'm learning Benson NPR's campaign 98 continues with in-depth profiles of the candidates on Mondays All Things Considered will hear from gubernatorial candidate. Skip Humphrey about his plans to boost State funding for education. So I will say this is spending well in a sense, it's Penny, but it's also very much an investment that story on Mondays All Things Considered weekdays at 3 on Minnesota Public Radio k n o w FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities. Major funding for Minnesota public radio's documentary fund has provided by Phyllis Taylor in memory of Walter stremmel should be a real nice day around the area. I'm already is and it should stay that way at least the rest of this afternoon Sunny what eyes mid-70s in the northeast of the 80s and southern and western Minnesota the Twin City forecast sunny with a high temperature in the low-80s. And right now it is 80° and it's sunny in the Twin City metropolitan area for Minnesota Center Eugene McCarthy out with a new book called no-fault politics is our guest this hour. He has been good enough to stop by our Studios. And if you have a question for Senator McCarthy to 276 thousand to 276 thousand or one 800-242-2828 Senator promotional announcement with skip Humphrey featured in that announcement. I can't resist the opportunity to ask you about the the fact that all of these sons of our running we have Hubert Humphrey's son and Orville Freeman. Sign of my Walter Mondale son and the son of the Dayton's and what is this good? Will I I don't know how to send some years ago involving the Kennedy saying that I thought that you should always have one generation in politics it in the generation out before you came back again having Sons and Daughters succeed fathers in and having grandfather's until I was was a questionable practice. I did talk to my son. I said you I feel a little bit left out. The three prominent Democrats are running. Would you like to come back and represent the family? He didn't take the bait rights for the British show. Medical journal the Lancet. He said I think I'll stay where I am. And so I'm not represented in the campaign back to the phone. Bruce is on the line with the question was Senator McCarthy glatzer McCarthy and More in Gary as always. He quit special moderator. I'll get right to the point Senator. I want to ask you a question relating to the prices that happened in this country and 63 and 68 and I guess you don't know what we're talking about here. I was a very young person. I'm 42 years old first voted for Jimmy Carter and I want to find out from you said or how did you find a personal resolve to go on once you realize that human beings would do a nice things to others who did not have the same feeling about the way the world should be perceived what to do with family prayer. poetry your writing to take a look at historical records, you'd be completely pessimistic about the possibility of last name and that in itself is not I got Thomas More said that things are not going to be good until everybody is good, which he said he didn't think would come for a long time. and if you're committed to politics In the Senate particularly. I think you have an institution identification with c. What percentage should be your what Senator should be so you don't have to make you don't start from Ground Zero you side with an Institutional base? My feeling was at the senate had a really for you got it from reading the Constitution and the and the Constitutional debates. Santa has a special responsibility for foreign policy and that military policy and soul in Vietnam. Drag you on it. It was it was a responsibility of the Senate to do something about it as an institution. And the disillusionment I guess I'd call it out cuz it was that it it wouldn't act. It wouldn't vote in 67. We had a showdown vote on Duncan Gulf resolution in and only five people said we even want to debate it. The other 95 or 97 voted against taking it out for consideration. So that is a member to say that I felt it even though the Senate was not going to act. That I had institutional in professional. I guess you'd call Professional responsibilities of a senator to do something about it. Are we attracting in your opinion are we attracting as good of people a good quality of people to public life is so we once did well, I don't know what the good old days. And their situation in the issues bear upon his hard to make a judgment on that, although I think it's safe to say that. People new Senators as individuals are people like way more so nobody knows that they are like way more snow. And maybe 10 or 15 people who are forces and decided I'll spoken forces and political forces for good and bad both. But at least she is individuals were identified which now it's part of the no responsibilities thing. It shows up in various ways of the Johnson. Change the Senate into kind of a House of Representatives. Would like to roll calls in the duplication of issues before the senate in the house and they change the house at the kind of a set it on foreign policy until what you had was sort of the chaotic relationship and it was hard to sort it out and it it makes it more difficult for members of the Senate I say to distinguish themselves because they're they have to go to this kind of chaotic situation isn't farts created by Johnson and his Park created by the issues want two things that come out of that came out of the Vietnam War experience was the all-volunteer Army what you refer to as a mercenary Army in your book. I should we move back to a draft in this country my Georgia Lottery. And it was Jefferson view that we should not have Alexander Hamilton one of the mercenary Army. Jefferson says we and he was courting the Greek saying the only safe military establishment is one that reflects a Citizens and the only way to get that is by buy some kind of draft in the lottery when you have a country the size of ours. but it is that action if Grady the volunteer army was read the last station putting together the military industrial complex, which It started kind of looked at these over time. You see how they started away in that 47. revision of the armed services Act of the change the name of the World War II was fought under the direction of the water department. In 47 by Statute they changed it to the defense department. and who suggested that someone said we better not call it a war department because some of you say where's the war and you don't have a lawyer? That's a what do you need the money for? And it or are you planning to war then you'd be an even deeper trouble. So they call it the apartment and you can't have enough or too much to fence. So he had it open in for a feel for your arms and Appropriations and so on established the Air Force as a third branch. which gave them additional popular support because the air force was a show-off Force in World War II at least got there was a different kind of a and And then they finally closed the thing with a volunteer army who said you don't have a Citizens Army. So the liberal said well, that's good because there's a war we don't like we won't have to go and and the military said now we'll have a real military army the kind of Alexander Hamilton had in mind. Troll and then they said establish Air Force Academy which ensure the continuation of the Host of the Air Force is the third branch should all of it tended to consolidate and then the rights of the military-industrial complex was really informing was rather curious and Desert Storm. Although there were some soldiers who objected a few defectors is General judgment was it didn't have a right to objector to defect. Because they were volunteers that they had signed on and therefore had no right to pass any kind of judgment on the action. Which were the citizens citizens arrived Army? It would retain all the rights and responsibilities of citizens to pass judgment on the war. Answer the phone. So Tom your question for Senator McCarthy. Please naming all the landmarks on the farm after him. I think a lot of that going on in this country, especially way back through the Republicans in the Hoover Dam and then I'll be presidential libraries now and I think we should name things after maybe the great writers and Poets and pictures of our country rather than glorifying the political leaders. So I was wondering what your thoughts are on that the political leaders do the naming know so you can get your flying into they just rename the Washington National Airport to Ronald Reagan Airport. My name is after Kennedy the name but was Idlewild which is a nice name for an airport in to Kennedy Airport? And therefore to Washington was originally called Chantilly which was the name of the area in Virginia where it was built and they change that to the John Foster Dulles airport. So I think Alicia is here for major cases where we exchanged names of airports why it's been better if they followed your your proposal instead of, New Hampshire. Politicians how they were going to name and presumably it's still alive. I plan to name the post office. So the Eugene McCarthy post office here in St. Paul. We're the Old Post Office. Where does that set? That is so it's alive again that these someone had put a hold on it something I didn't know they could do in the Saturday. They say you can put a hold on it bill or none of us. They so you don't know who the who is put the hold on your bill. We just got in the fashion sayings to be able to hold on certain bills on a few available. He always had to say put your name on the hold let the New Order of things you can you can do it anonymously you put the pill in a convertible in and then put an anonymous hold on it so you can hold your own bill against people on the basis of Communism back in the 50s. We were talking about it. Not the kind of the same way. Minnesota was never apprehensiveness some or Minnesota politicians shouldn't have been we had guess all of us from Minnesota. He was ahead of the Communist party there real name is Alburgh. We knew that that his family was up in northern Minnesota. So guess what never seem to be a real threat to us and the other Lady Gaga me to Skype with whatever they were socialists trotskyites. And in Party politics are pretty well gone with her some of them around and when I first got in there, so if we could always sell on their Principal book was not the Communist Manifesto of the Robert's Rules of Order. So you say what you call me? Just one of the guys you say that's in the management in the third degree and identify them that was about the extent of the threat here in Minnesota. You are one of the first people to publicly stand up to a Joseph McCarthy. Senator Joseph McCarthy who is probably the leader of the whole anticommunist. What's a legitimate fear of Communism or where they're just a few Rogue politicians trying to capitalize on on the thing. Well, I didn't think there was but it was also an American Activities Committee was was Primary in the office station until Joltik or that it became of Senate issuing. Got more attention, but I had a 1-1 Minnesota who was named in the list of 265 so versus it. Look became the subjective of executive it. Inquire the day was how old are Hanson. I remember he was no threatening, but I knew someone went to the university, but then you said it. All. Hanson is a communist red. We have nothing to fear. Well, I never met at all. Let's get at least one more caller on here before we run out of time time. You'd be next go ahead please. Hello. Play calling from up here and then, Minnesota. text line item veto and Santa both the president would like it and the US Congress would like it. I was overruled by the third branch that judicial branch is there too much power in the judicial branch are unaccountable power how to turn off a constitutional it was around when I was in Congress. There's always a line item veto. And I don't think we ever had a photon. I was just talked about but I felt from the first introduction of it that it was unconstitutional that it gave the executive branch legislative power, which the Constitution didn't intend and present is most democratic presidents in the water to keep the difference is clear. But Clinton came in without a very clear idea of what the federal government was all about him the techniques of Governors kind of ran for governor United States and governors have line-item vetoes and governors have been to Constitution. Does it state that they have total budget for today shut up and pass around this is so the end of the session of Congress more and more and become like the end of the legislative session and they're taking money out of one fund and put it into another program. So we got to keep the budget balance, which is it is it is a bad idea and I was a duck pond and put it in the fish fund balance budgets are a bad idea. I was in Congress for 22 years and we balance the budget practically 10 years in time the total it's one of these two no responsibility good because your loan balance the budget you can you can balance the budget or unbalanced a budget without a resolution. And it sets the stage for all kinds of logrolling and irresponsibility say well I couldn't do it because it would have been balanced the budget you could have done and you didn't have to establish the balanced budget proposal, but I was 22 years. refinance what's the time in the national debt increased from 250 billion to 300 and 720 billion in 22 years and we didn't have any balanced budget amendment that all paid for the war pay for every Medicare build a highway program and balance the budget. So it's another one of those devices. I can't actually say well I didn't do it the national natural indexing did it, you know, I just was just responding to the index. Are we just responding to the balanced budget amendment? Or I did it but the president could have given to the line-item veto Jiffy the video if you wanted it to all these marshalling peripheral actions that tend to make members of Congress less responsibility residence less responsibility or bad ideas. I should ask you any predictions as to who were going to end up as candidates for president in the 2004 control the national politics. and the last of Senator non, governor To run who didn't run because you've been vice president. They're all governors in the Democratic party. Sorry was Dukakis and Jimmy Carter and Walter Mondale ran but he ran. Only because you've been vice president. and Tire And Clinton. You should be pick a senator or something like that and it put a governor in his vice president just to give him some training. Now they picked the governor and he picks the president is the running mate a pretty tough to call for him for 2 years. What do control is is in the state of the Democratic National Leadership Council, which is pretty much controlled by Governors. I think they'll they'll be the dominant Force tell her thanks for coming in today and glad that you're feeling better and really appreciate your coming on your trip out here with. All right. Every time I make sure you do it on the program here. Yeah, you could do that. I don't think I ever and also and your program but not yet. Not yet. Thanks a lot for McCarthy is out with a new book called no-fault politics modern presidents the press and reformers an interesting book touches on a wide number of subjects and it's available in bookstores. Now, this is midday come and get you. Minnesota Public Radio we're going to take a short break here and then we'll be back with Writer's Almanac and over the noon hour will hear from the chairman of the Democratic National Committee coming up. I'm Linda wertheimer later today Riverboat gambling is legal in Missouri. The question is what's a Riverboat authorities are all floating in this artificial Basin design to look like for riverboat casino boats in Motes of Missouri voters want to get rid of them, but jobs and economic growth are on the line that story in the day's news later on NPR's All Things Considered 5 minutes now before 12