Nike Greta 6 minutes past 11 today's programming is made possible in part by The Advocates Minnesota Public Radio contributors include 3M maker of Scotchgard brand protectors and the Honeywell Foundation providing the benefits of control worldwide. And good morning. This is midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary Acton. Glad you could join us for this Friday over 1,400 delegates will get together at the dfl State Convention to try to endorse a candidate for governor. Since there's no incumbent Governor running this year. The conventions are attracting more than the usual amount of media attention, or she can count on some live coverage from St. Cloud, Minnesota Public Radio, but one thing seems certain this year's convention really won't hold it. Hold a candle to the 1968 dfl State Convention that year if you think about this, it's pretty amazing that ear Minnesota's two US senators Hubert Humphrey and Eugene McCarthy. We're going head-to-head for the Democratic presidential nomination contest played out and States all across the nation. But know where was it more interesting and intense and right here in Minnesota to favorite Sons had to had battling over a real issue of national importance mainly the war in Vietnam. What a shower at. Midday. We've been joined from his home in Washington by former Minnesota Center, Eugene McCarthy to reflect a little bit on that contest in 1968 and discuss some of the issues facing Americans are in 1998, and of course we invite you to join our conversation as well great opportunity today to talk to former Minnesota. Senator Eugene McCarthy. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call Twin City area number is 227-6002 276 thousand if you're calling from outside the Twin Cities, you can reach us toll-free at 1-800. +242-282-227-6004 1 800-242-2828 morning Senator. How are you? Feeling? Pretty good last year notes Wiseau. It's it's great to hear that you've recuperated or are recuperating. Yeah, I got a little way to go but I can talk anyway, that is such Ricky. Well in the course your mind is sharp as a tack is always hope so well, I've got something tentatively scheduled for St. John's about the middle of July. And I hope to make that it's I just got out of traveling on airlines when you're when you're crippled up a little bit, but I think I think I'll make that out of you around the middle of July 22nd. I'm not sure but you were the days and I hope to spend some time and in Minneapolis and st. Paul. I looking forward to it. Let's talk a little history first before we get into current behind on my book selling. Well, let's get those out of the way first of all which have new books selected poetry. It's been out for a while, but I've been able to do much with it in the others once come out. Just recently it's a collection of political commentary essay is called no-fault politics. End of kavi talk to you about that when I'm at home and a great treat to I hope are they are they available in the book stores already put out by random house. So I expect they'll get pretty good distribution to portray. You have a problem Distributing poetry. Are you going to have to Pedal it yourself? But they may have some of the Minneapolis It's been out since before I before I was sick, but it nothing much has been done about ex. I had a couple of Paris's schedule for Minnesota and also for New York and Washington before I got sick, so I got to pick that up again, but the other item how should be should be in the book story. If if if it's not right, you know if the bookstore and what's the name of the book again? It's called no-fault politics pretty much commentary on the Clinton Administration. I want to get to that gets to get some thoughts on the on the Clinton Administration here in a moment. But if you would know if you would please a little history. First of all just look back quickly at that 1968 State Convention here as I recall. That was really both you and Hubert Humphrey spoke to DF Fellers. I guess it was actually the night before the official convention began, right? Yeah. I think it was if memory serves that was really the only time joint appearance that you two had in the same stage wasn't unfortunately, you ever didn't run in any of the primary station or and I think it's the only time we appeared together accepting at the time of the Chicago convention. We appeared before the California delegation that must have been fairly intense wasn't coming coming home here. It was scary but not intubated. I was impressed by the California delegation cuz after. We finished we had a question. One of them got episode. What is your stand on Vietnam War? Jessalyn Redwood rot in a kind of boat was he Kennedy delegation, which he had control of him after he was assassinated and he had kind of a delegation this this young woman was really going to catch up on me. I said to Jess. I'm going to congratulate you on your on your delegation. They're really up on the issues here in Minnesota. I would think that that must have been. Hello, pretty intense Time coming back to your home. Then. Hubert was the candidate. Minnesota would have probably been wanted it would have been strongly opposed to the war as is was, Wisconsin, but The candidacy of uber changed all that it was intense on the issues also intense on questions of procedure when we were arguing over took the case to they've got as far as the Circuit Court. on the principle of one-person one-vote in that the rules of the dfl that time gave Every state I think it was either two or three delegates, so we carried that we had to pretty much control of Ramsey and Hennepin County in St. Louis County. Where are you at half of the Democrats live in so we got from those states are orders. We got I think it was a nine votes for his the other 80 counties gave 3 * 80 Or 242 2 Humphrey. So we do I get about that too. But he sees the bait on the procedure was almost as intense as we had the party in trouble because they've been great Advocates of one of one person one vote in the representative delegations. As you may recall in earlier conventions of. Taking the initiative and throwing out the Mississippi delegation on the grounds that it wasn't representative. And even in this invention ever throw you out, Mississippi and in Georgia. Racial discrimination but there's there's no attempt to operate or have a representative delegation on the issue of opposition to the war. There is as you well know what is a six-way fight for the dfl gubernatorial nomination. What what advice would you offer in terms that will not let me put it this way how important is it for these candidates to try to avoid? Bitter debate to maintain Unity party Unity versus a full airing of the issues if it's a question of procedure in a meeting people's delegations or so and I can get pretty bitter because it is beyond principle to be on the issue. I don't know what Let's be raised. I assume they're all pretty much the same on the issues out there pretty quiet so far. I think it's fair to say. I don't know in fights about delegates or not. I don't think so. I think it's been relatively tranquil. No, cuz if I assume that there was about all they have to go on in his father's reputation. Supposed loyalty. What are you can divide the party three ways are five ways. I don't know. I don't know. Do you know what the structure the party is now? It was 30 years ago. Do I apologize Shands is a real? Prefer a are they interested primarily just in getting elected to get elected to hold office or for the most part. Our our politicians are motivated by a desire to actually do something to promote a cause underneath. There's some kind of basic drive to do something to Either to bring up issues of having been raised her take the old issues and do something with tonight. I think it said she had stated as I look at the before 5 it running in Minnesota. They all have some list record of Public Service in the public concern and sometimes I really want to go to the office to undo things to it was in the Republican Congress as they're not quite sure if they want to do anything cuz they know what they want to do. I'm sympathetic to maybe wrongly motivated but they they are motivated. Let me ask you one more question sooner than and I want to get to some callers of a lot of people who have questions and comments for you. They're having a funeral service for Barry Goldwater today. Where does he fit into the political Pantheon? He was kind of a nuisance, you know. And these positions you taking you never sure he know that he was serious about them or what it was part of the act and you go to extremes to kind of draw tension to the positions. He was taking excited Institute to Hubert and I one day on the floor of the senate in Coldwater used to go out and give these kind of extreme right-wing speeches on the weekends and then you come back and he got to put them in the Congressional Record on Monday afternoon. And then send them out to his father because he was freaking playing the right way and pretty much you know, and one day. I don't know what he's giving the speech in Minnesota or not, but he had some International so you need is demanding. 14 points or something that had to be settled before he could accept it. So we are saying I should go after him a little bit. So we did and I forgot now. Humphrey said the den of those fourteen points are already recognized for adult mean anything and he said I've got to go to dinner and do that was that is an indication of the depth of his commitment to the 14 points. But he was a pleasant person, you know, and I debated e164 liberalism vs conservative before he was a candidate. You're so boring. I just tell him I said did you fall asleep for a little while in the middle of that the base and I suppose I think I did doze off a little bit. Can you say so many times that I lost interested that I'm not sure but it but he was just personal guy even she's a good person but politically Former Minnesota Center Eugene McCarthy is our guest this our joining us from Washington DC. And if you'd like to join our conversation, if you've got a question or comment for Senator McCarthy, give us a call to 276 thousand is our Twin City area number 2276 thousand all side the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828. We're happy to report today that if Senator McCarthy is not Hale and Hearty and you sure a lot better off than he was last year when he had some serious health problems. Great to hear you're back in form again Center. Set a remote car that I wanted to greet you. I have great respect and admiration for you. I worked on your campaign in 68 when I lived in New Hampshire in a very small way such a watershed time. Actually, I had supported General Gavin and then you came into the race and switched allegiance to you. When was very exciting time? And I'm wondering if you would reflect a little bit on that 68 New Hampshire campaign and its its significance. how to report on I don't know what reflection one can what can I draw for me but it was a disturbing here and we started the campaign in a modest way, you know what already raised the issue. and of course into a campaign against Johnson and then tenor of the campaign was changed when Robert Kennedy came infected with change significantly when he came in so we had campaign against Johnson and then campaign against Kennedy and Johnson was true by Hubert came in with shades of complexion again. So every wish it was disturbing kind of campaign when you couldn't really keep it on the issues cuz personalities kept in shooting and what we set out to do with the campaign primarily on the on the on the issues incidentally against Johnson campaign on other issues and other personalities simple campaign. As it turned out and I think it really shook the Democratic party in Minnesota that in the 1948 in Philadelphia. So you're not for you. You're not going to like it then but you were raised the issue of civil rights and that they had the effect of dividing. The party was a highly moral issue. The whole Southern black walked out of the party was Heidi devices with the party faced up to a moral issue in 48 and they came up on the right side of that. Being the Civil Rights by making 68 we had an issue. Different nature but it was moral issue fun fundamentally and the party made the decision not to take the moral standing to go with the pragmatic clinical pro war stand and I don't think it's never quite recovered from it Richard go ahead place, but I'm the last one there in 68. I I was really disappointing for you. I think you were right and bringing the nation into a bird as what was going on the floor. I don't think Humphrey with same as Johnston Humphrey got the nomination you didn't support him and I think because of that it was able to win because he only won by one vote for Precinct United States. So it was that close and you've never supported on the floor hardly and your backers never supported if they probably did some didn't That's why you're not bringing out your supposed to part of support to him. I think that cost the Democrats the affection. Maybe all they had to do is make some concession to us on the war and they didn't do it. Every two things that I'm free had to do one was to make a concession on the war which was difficult for him to do with the other was to show that he was independent of Lyndon Johnson and he didn't do that either one or both of those things. I think would have given him Victory this say about 1 Precinct you see You'd have to go run the averages out and it to get 225 or 35 thousand volts. He would we would have had to change something like increase the voting do I have a couple of million so that you get the what out of 50 years old it was going to vote for Hubert Humphrey so that more thoroughly, but I doubt found anybody yet. Who said that they voted for him. Or would have voted for him. It's always someone saying somebody else would have voted that way people had a choice, but they do Richard Dixon. They do the issue and the new Hubert Humphrey hasn't been in the Public Public eye for 20 years at least and both of whom had a position on the war so that I don't think there's any number of people who were waiting for me to give him more enthusiastic. And anyway, it's never been proved. I was Walter Cronkite and people like that. I've asked him if you know of anybody tell you the / early pregnancy. She asked if I'm free later voted for today. I hope you made a study that I never made a study and then you can't even name one person. I could name a couple who said they did vote for him. And it but the dates of the people were making the statement had no evidence at all of what would have happened. If if I give him a more enthusiastic, I don't think people care much about the door. She was at the presidential level. You can endorse people for a lower office or candidate who they don't know much about him a pay attention to what you start telling people how to vote for the presidency. Most Americans say will make up our own mind on that. Anyway neck guy your question place, and there's very little impact here in the in the Saint Paul Area. The face of the city is will probably forever change due to the influx of Southeast Asian refugees my comment for sending a car to be who make such a decision. How do they make such decision? How do they decide where they're going to place these Stateside refugees? Thank you. Well, of course your decisions made by a series of administrations but a good part of it is my judgment is in response to their feelings of guilt about the war. We created in 45 countries we created or victims And in return for that we said you can come to the United States Vietnam free sample hours Cambodia. Cuba and Are in Paris was because of especially if you take the case of Vietnam as you get these. Recent in post-war, right? He's hardly anybody said they were ready for I didn't fix the only one I know who was never reported as having been against the war was Dean Rusk McNamara said he didn't believe in it. Actually Hubert never quite said that they've been some of his people said he didn't but he never did but Linda said he had doubts and make George Bundy had doubts and almost everybody who was advocating war for supporting it after it was over said that they really hadn't believed in it. And so in reaction to that Refugee group in 45 countries why the people who had guilt feelings I will get the ones that supported us and to give them the right to come to the United States and that's pretty much how it happened Center. How would you how would you rate our President Clinton's foreign policy performance at this point where we stand in the world are we I will always call the soul the only superpower free world. Dealt with issues that nobody knew quite what to do with any way like who knew what to do with a t that came out pretty well who knew a lot to deal with Somalia that came out pretty well when you got to the tougher ones why you know what to do with him and didn't come out. So well like you could love you all dearly for what he's done or not done. It's been more accidental I think but that's not so bad if he We were just so excited. So, you know, it's kind of government by ex-governors and volume turns very well, unless the situation so confused that anybody can do it. It's hard to be a total failure is President knighted states anyway. I tell him I'll text you cuz I don't know what one could have done but you could have had people in the administration who could have anticipated. What was going to happen? If you don't receive Northern Minnesota Democrats, you know, there was going to be trouble. And it was heaps deep-sea to travel around so long. Of History. places examples from from experience when Tito married to his second wife. I was talking to a diplomat from that part of the world. He said this is terrible. He said the service will get back into the government. She's Disturbed. So you felt that eat or should not have married to serve because it would it would give the surge power in the uses of Governor under Tito. or I when you burp became. vice president gallbladder taken to John Rudy was governor anywhere. He was supposed to been that anyway, and I said John. What you want me to I suggested leave that he put you in the Senate, which is you deserve it John said no, don't do it. He said the He won't do it anyway, and I want to know what you want to give him a chance to turn me down. I said, why is that he said he's a Croatian. Panda I'm a civilian. And that was all he said. You didn't expect to see if you have that kind of division between Croatia and Slovenia news in Minnesota. You can imagine what you had in Yugoslavia. Just sent the state department experts up to the range for a while to get a early Ridge without an understanding use they understood they probably couldn't have done much about it. and at the same time Are the same same incident? Not in Minnesota, but there's kind of a animator. Do you still have a general manager? Regency Hotel in New York, I knew he was he's about 65. I thought he walked around in a get her jacket all the time and very proper followed. When they say they broke up over there I should wear. This should be good for you to solve your freezer ices, and he said we serves have got to take over. So these are currents are still running in the United States and they're doing the keishin to me that the White House was aware of this. Is that even though they might not have been able to do anything if they had but they would have had some knowledge of switch to pay at work and I think he's ready to same thing now or who knows what to do with it. Indian Pakistan, but that they understood the problem was there and one of the pictures of the above? Pakistani Islamic bomb go back 25 years ago when beautiful is President of Pakistan. He made a speech so you made it here. But anyway, it was reported here. Shane is Islam that they had to go ahead Pakistan did with a nuclear bomb. Because this one was the only major religion that didn't have a nuclear bomb. So they all they had was Allah. They figured that wasn't quite enough. They needed to two sides of the equation. And you know that he was serious about it. And actually Saddam Hussein said that they also needed a nuclear bomb. He would if you're an arachnid have it as a representative of the Islamic Nation. So now I induce have a bomb in the Christians have lots of Bahamas in The Atheist said bombs and didn't leave anybody but is found no indication that anyone in the administration was taking into account some of these strange with realistic and offered to principles of these countries follow Center. We need to write a quick break here and we'll get back to some more questions from listeners in just a moment our guest in this our joining us from Washington DC former, Minnesota. Senator Eugene McCarthy. And if you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call. 227-6000. Side the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828 and you know before we get to the break of the ever-vigilant hamhuis points out that and she's absolutely right. We made a goof in our introduction to the program pointing out that Minnesota has two US senators are going head-to-head in the uniting 68 presidential election. Well course Hubert Humphrey at the time was the vice president, but he was a Senator here so long it seems like he was in Minnesota senator who gets more question just a moment. I'm Mary Lozier this week on all things considered. We've been examining a scientific mystery the worldwide Vanishing of frogs now reports of deformed frogs many. I'm from Minnesota have added two scientists concerned that the plight of frogs is a warning to humans come in tonight at 5:30 on Minnesota Public Radio k n o w FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities. We're going to have a full Special Report on this issue of the disappearing and deformed frogs this noon here in our midday program. So a couple of opportunities to catch up on that issue over the noon hour today here on midday. And then again on all things considered this afternoon. There's a possibility for some light rain in Southwestern in northeastern Minnesota generally partly cloudy though this afternoon with highs in the fifties pretty cool Twin Cities partly cloudy and cool with a high in the mid-fifties right now 53 and cloudy in the Twin City metropolitan area joining us from Washington this hour of our midday program for Minnesota. Senator, Eugene McCarthy lots of callers on the line with questions and Comments for Senator McCarthy David go ahead place with the current Administration and our state of economic Affairs. How do you see the future American liberalism in the 20th century, text the word and oh, by the way, I do enjoy your poetry sir. Well as you say that the way you could do anything today. Will a pretty socialism sort of went away. I think that our liberalism is gone. a situation in which the two parties compete for the same ground y I think you can have the results that the British had which is wrong with C disappearance of the old liberal Labour party in England in the same thing could happen. Here is we Clinton could have been a republican candidate I think. It wouldn't have been difficult for you to shift on the issues on the issue just a little bit why you cannot accept what the Republicans are offering. And is that good or bad? It does seem like well it appeals to a lot of people to take out what amounts to a kind of a Centrist compromise position. I don't mean that in a derogatory sense. But you know as opposed to kind of idiot logical solutions to problems. Well, it depends on if they're interested. If he joined it I still think the health-care thing is one with the surrendered on too easily. They're not finding out that the hmos are doing all the things that the photos of healthcare it says. We're going to be done by the government. and that could have been anticipated by anybody who is He got the problem. It's sort of like 30 education over to to private management. It doesn't work. Is there a mule unfortunately had a close up close and personal deal with the medical system this last year any if you had a wand a wave, is there anything we could do to make the system better when you set out to set up a set up a medical system that will not doesn't allow for death why you're trying the impossible. It's sort of like an educational program is going to eliminate ignorance there certain things that you can't quite happy with the program. You can only do the best you can. I thought that after the 92 election and set it in a couple of debates like leaves it we had a pretty good medical base to work on. Medicare and Medicaid in the veterans program. That's what we ought to take what we had and fill it out. I've been looking at it back in 5456 Bob Taft a republican. Who am I considered the founder in the champion of conservatism more than Barry Goldwater? Who proposed that we adopt a catastrophic medical insurance program for the country? Show the people was unusual medical expenses. And then we should we work down from that Democrats said we're not going to let him do that. We don't want to go out after do it and it'll get in the way of special programs more comprehensive will we finally passed Medicare and Medicaid in 64 65? Or we could have started with some catastrophic medical expenses and we could have taken up catastrophic medical expenses as part of the campaign of Elections with but didn't do it. so is it it's been more question of tactical failure, I think on the part of the Democrats and desire for political advantage They're dropping medical Medicare, but now I have to fight the hmos. Tony your question for Senator McCarthy, this is quite an honor student at the University of Minnesota and I just got back from class discussing the 1968 campaign. So to turn on my radio and hear you is quite a surprise. This is great. 68 actually, it's the course. I'm just current recent American history. I see so it was American history what that's a university didn't get very much involved in 68. They were one of the more passive campuses. That's what I had heard especially compared to campus of such as Wisconsin. It was quite 73 win. Okay, but it's 68. They were rather on the passenger side. Wow. I've been asked to give a speech at the University of Minnesota proper since before 1968. Well, I'm going to make note of that popular at the you as you are at the dfl. Termination. Anyway telling me you're a little bit on civil rights at the time of the campaign and also your perception of Robert Kennedy stance on civil rights at the time. I lie written about that. I think you must have read some of the Kennedy stuff is anyone who was filed a civil rights to the my record was all the standard test. It was perfect record going back to 1948 part of the Kennedy campaign with 2 was to the only person I've been for civil rights at any time was I was for civil rights when he was chasing Communists and lobsters with John McClellan. And so part of his guy says you was to say that I did not good for civil rights, which was representation. but it is to rather to involve to It just sort it out. wish taken in a special text message was true, but it was alive and that's an aspect of the campaign. That was never be taken up by the press and you didn't have time for you to do it. As far as the major issue, but certainly one of them are related to civil rights. These days is the issue of affirmative action. Is that at what what's your position on that particular cases. I think I When I went to Congress, I debated Ellen Outlander. And 49 or 50 units will be called on me there. He was a senator from Louisiana. And he took a flat position that blacks were inferior race. This is a member of the senate or congress who Express that view. We come a long way from that it in roughly fifty years of action is it is a problem because it's It's contrary. It's an admission that we failed the Constitution says because the right. Equal right to be unequal. So when you get to the point of equality then do you say this is where we stopped everything or do you allow for equality or inequality? And it it it's I didn't I think we've done pretty well on the Primitive action considering the difficulty of it between some congressional action and executive action and not just by the federal government and also by the courts at the progress has been as good as I think we could have hoped it to be and we should continue much to be done was got to be done got hit by a continuous pressure with a supportive of the really had to get e to wear their corporations Witcher almost independence day. Are we going to concern themselves about formative action? and keep the pressure on the corporations and the government agencies in the courts and progress is made of the next. 50 years has it was the last 50. Why would be in good shape on that Scout Patrick your question for Senator McCarthy. Wondering how your views compared on Vietnam compared to Senator William Fulbright. I understood understand that he did not support you in 1968. And in fact, he said that that you can't run a country with a bunch of hippies. I'm wondering what the kind of background check with a bunch of hippies. I didn't support me but you continue to oppose the war which was as much as we asked if I could be it was an issue on which endorsement by another Senator didn't mean very much as people knew what the war was and we're making it with a simple enough proposition if they wanted to be against it or not. I don't think anybody was going to be for me because full-ride said he was for me, but they We're for me because you positioned Hebrews 4 with one that I was for. And the only about 4:45 Senators who openly supported me Saturday Morrison. Senator from Iowa and that was about it. Did you actually want to be president or did you just want to get that war policy change the war policy as I said when I'm free caveman I said I was not really campaigning against Linda Johnson. We should just take you as my campaign from Kennedy when he came in that war was the same War when he ever became a candidate as it had been when Leonard was a candidate so my concern was to me to change policy on the ward if that require becoming president either required a campaign for the presidency. But whether you had to become president to change it I didn't I didn't never came to that conclusion. Louisa you're coming place. You can imagine how happy we are to hear your voice. I know I'm speaking for thousands of people who are are well. We're just delighted that you're recovering and sound just like your old self today saying some Republican and put a hold on the on the pill to the post office after me and I'm sure they'll get that resolved. This is a ridiculous a person that introduced the bill could put a hold on it anonymously be opposed to his own bill. Saturday should speak and be heard to be identified. It's absolutely for the good of the system would have to see about that. We agreed with your analysis earlier on in the program of the influence of your somewhat belated endorsement of Humphrey. I have never met a single soul either who said I voted for Richard Nixon's because Eugene McCarthy didn't endorse Hubert Humphrey the implausibility of that position mind-boggling that other people lately. They think they know what other people did other people are convinced. It's right. I would like to also mention that as you said you were in such a long supporter of all the civil rights legislation going way back, but another thing I think that many people especially the younger people are not aware of this that you had the courage to face Joseph McCarthy when he was the most lethal. Most people and certainly most political figures had no desire to debate him in public what you did. I wish you'd mentioned a couple things about that because I think that was very important. Well, I don't know I think two or three things one. I knew Irishman like him we were kind of the guy that we would have started fighting and leave the room. Yo, it's your tip over the tables and stuff, you know of it. He was the person that they identified with it. I Well, it's kind of a long story but it was kind of rather General concerns affecting the whole culture of America and the 50 years that I was in Congress. When was he had a thing and it is it poison family relationships and pull the politics and the whole culture is suspicion of everybody and it was just cuz he was never in danger of a communist takeover with Minnesota do that way. I remember when I was first in Congress and States fair had two booths for the communist or socialist workers is a socialist labor party. We try to do what these people are like it or not frightened by you say we could tell who the Communist Party meeting understood Robert's Rules of Order is a guy pull out Robert's Rules of Order. He said he's a communist. It doesn't have to be a Marxist. Manifesto visit Robert's Rules of Order while you were identified so we could take him and most of the third degree or something and that was something we couldn't do much about it. But I did get involved in today to Joe did a few other things that they will campaign against me at 1952 and say Paul was Was it I was super duper the time of the switches were seeing if they said I was one I'd say well baby, but when they call you a group of economy, does it call you a real to the second was the Vietnam War? You know what that record was in the third is what I've been involved in since 74 that they hold all movement to reform reform politics. Formed the Congress see there's talking about for the reform now and everything. They propose it violates freedom of speech and freedom of assembly and even though even they had a lobbyist position is contrary to the Constitution guarantee of the right to petition the government and the Liberals are all for reform when you get liberals turn reformer, she got trouble. It's like the second stage of the French Revolution when they invented the guillotine. and said, it was a Humane instrument and it was it was treated everybody equally, so this is about the same principles involved in the in the But I can see receipt big challenges to try to stability of a constitutional government and life in this country have all been challenged in the last two. 50 years and in all three of them have been supported by the Press. So there's something to be said for the stability in the basic strength of the country of the Constitution that no, one of them is for failed accepting. The federal election reform which is partially succeeded but refused to be in trouble the courts me straighten that out Senator. Unfortunately, we are just about out of time here. I can't let you go without a quick comment from you on this whole Lewinsky business the investigation into the sex scandal. So is this something that Americans really should be concerned about it's bad enough so you should be concerned that, you know, Jerry. Lmia are doing The Senate Office is not a training ground for the interns and he said they'll be running against you three or four years. And the White House is really not a place for intern should you can't take an intern training to be president so I can present themselves are kind of insurance and I think they are asking for some kind of trouble on your clutter up at Administration with Harry Truman head-on, and there's no training program in the Truman White House that I know of. And that's the way. If we're honest it's a pretty but to our office. So I don't know if I could have said the court said they couldn't do it a question do almost anything, you know de tocqueville said there's nobody who body that has the power of the court has it really no limit on what it could do in the name of the Supreme Court and I thought the implications are so we've been better off if it has been put off until after his term. Senator we have to run but thanks so much for joining us all today. Hope you can get out here in July and the new book no-fault politics, right? And of course you got the other book of poetry is 2 bucks now. Okay. Okay get started on that third one in and get well. Thank you, sir. McCarthy joining us from his home in Washington DC looking back a little bit to 30 years ago to the 1968 the historic 1968 campaign. And of course talking about the issues here in 1998 as well. 5 minutes now before 12. This is midday on Minnesota Public Radio and time now for The Writer's Almanac.