It's on to November. Of course now at least for some Minnesota politicians with yesterday's Lively primary Now history Arne Carlson, John Marty Rod grams and witty and I'll move on to the general election. Did they were going to spend some time discussing what happened yesterday? And why and like I had to November as well our guest today or political analysts Time Warner and Sarah stays Tom is the Republican. He is our longtime IR commentator and Sarah is the Democrat in house here. She's an aide to senator Paul wellstone and ranly Mike Freeman campaign for governor this year. I'm sorry. Thanks for coming by. Thank you for having let's let's work through. I will getting the calls in here. Let's work our way through these races one by one very briefly. First of all, how is it that Arne Carlson beat to Allen Quist by a two-to-one margin everybody at least a lot of people thought that would be real close race substantial Democratic crossover people were terrified about Allen Quist and terrified about the Takeover of the sort of far-right extremist.Stir the position in the state and so Carlson could not possibly have done it without that can help put on it. I'm not sure that's really the case. I think there was some democratic turnover crossover, but I think it would have it as much to do with Democrats fling their own party fling a party that they saw in the three candidates was not reflecting their views and moving to the Republican party because of ideologies rather than than fear. I think the second thing to to look. At that disputes did the dfl crossover is that you know, there's not much of a fall off from Arnie Carlson's vote total to ride grams vote totals Arne Carlson had about 320,000 Rod grams is about 270,000 now, that's pretty close to the normal kind of fall off you to expect from the top.The ticket race that is hotly contested has a lot of attention has a lot of energy and emotion going for it to the second-place contest where it where frankly there wasn't much of a contest there never was much of a proceed contest between Rod grams and and can Elders get voted for deer said had she been able to more forcefully inarticulately put her case forward people were just confused about the difference. I think between deer shed in grams, and she was not really able to position herself in the way that and when he was able to position herself Against Time full length. I think you have to give Arnie Carlson his do hear it hear the candidate who people perceive was was down. If not out just a few months ago and not only did he win with a two-to-one margin, but he put together a coalition and a campaign that for the first time in anyone's memory in the state of Minnesota attracted substantially more votes to the Republican primary then to the dfl primary.It's a remarkable accomplishment whether it was dfl crossover or no Republicans coming back to the fold whatever it was Arne Carlson deserves his day in the sun is the incumbent governor. And so one would expect that. He would be able to have a very strong draw. I don't think anybody would go over to you and the other three races and then we can come back and and work. These was over a little more closely. How is it a John Marty be to hatch and Bows especially since he was apparently trailer in the polls right up close to election day. Just goes to show you the unreliability of those pre primary polls John Marty really his victory can be attributed to three factors and not necessarily in that order, but one being very good targeting Marty was able to hold hatch at Bay in some of the first and second district areas.He was able to really cut into boses support in the metro area. He's got a very good Target or by the name of Ed Gross who also did targeting for Paul wellstone Sharon sayles Belton and waiting for that matter. Secondly. He had very strong labor support which was very helpful to him and third he was able to benefit from a strong well-oiled a well-functioning dfl get-out-the-vote efforts. So really what we see is the difference between a campaign that relies on Grass Roots organizing versus a campaign that does not relate to campaigns and did not rely on Grass Roots organizing and in fact relied more on big media big money kind of politics again. I think you have to give John Martinez do he came after the convention things did not go well immediately for him was was reportedly to two.Out of money and as Sarah said put together a good campaign in the home stretch that focused. Well on the mechanics of winning a primary election having said that I think it also has to be acknowledged that this is a candidate who starts the general election in terrible shape and keep in mind that he won the dfl Primary but he attracted barely more than one-third of the vote in a relatively small turnout and that one-third of his vote came an overwhelming proportion from a very narrow segment of the states in the metropolitan area and even more narrowly from Hennepin in Ramsey County's that is not the kind of bass head upon which to build a winning general election campaign is going to be able to pick up the hatch boat and the bows of oat and in the end he will attract back those Carlson crossovers because they no longer have a quiz to fear. Well, I think a lot of the hatch folders are going to move to the Republican ranks, frankly and I think Marty is going to be very quickly painted is a liberal who'sToo young and too inexperienced to serve a quick look at the senate race and I want to get some calls here are grams and dearest add that turned out to be a pretty lopsided Affair. How did that come about not much of a raise stamina is as her suggest today. I think the nearest I did not put on as much of a campaign as as some people had hoped and by contrast it, I think Rod grams did the kind of things that you needed to do people have been been prone to count Rod grams out from the time. He announced for the 6th congressional seat in 1992, and he keeps coming up winter he put together a good campaign has held his resources in reserve and I think we'll be well positioned to mount a very effective general election campaign one really interesting a very smart thing that he did was to distance himself from Allen Quist. Although he embrace the same values that Allen Quist embraced at the IR convention. He very very quickly began to stuff those values in.Bushel basket and so people weren't really seeing the Allen Quist in Rod grams was again thought to be maybe it's going to be a little closer then it turned out to be close. But really Tom Foley effectively had one issue and that was crime and die and when he was able to run a very broad-based issues oriented kind of campaign and Foley just couldn't touch her. I think the problem though that faces and when you know is it is in a lot of ways more of a challenge to her to put back the dfl constituency than it is for Arne Carlson with quiz voters because the time fully faction is is a much larger segment of the dfl party. Then Allen Quest is of the Republican party on the other hand. I do think that Tom Foley is going to come around and throw his support behind and Winnie and the Fairly near future inMake a big difference Ariana with Sarah stays and Tom Horner are here and as we discussed yesterday is primary election results were going to be looking ahead to the November election as well. Lots of things to talk about they were lots of interesting races and lots of issues really raised a during the last several months and more to come. Let's go to our first caller Reino from St. Paul told your producer when I call that I wanted they asked what I want to talk what I was I said, it was the use of useless labels by the media. And then right as I was listening to the conversation here. I heard one of your guests say that I think a candidate Marty will and I'm quoting quickly be painted as a liberal and quote and this is the kind of thing that I feel really detract from the from the political discourse. If we take the real the real high road that is the sort of the idea of democracy kind of idea that we're supposed to have a a public discourse on issue.and everything and we have a sort of a Effect that takes place because of the media the money and stuff like that that's kind of degenerates this thing into a horse race. Yes people who they're for what what what they're looking for and all the sudden you're talking about odds in MMA. Everybody sounds like a racetrack tout instead of a citizen concerned about this or that issue and you know, like the liberal and conservative. I hear those bandied about all the time. What does that mean? I mean Kim can can somebody to find that and the one that's that's really gotten to me this year particularly is the use of the word mainstream back at the time of the carcasses. Everybody said that the carcasses were not representative that these were people that weren't of the mainstream and now yesterday we had a primary where 20% of the registered voters which is considerably less than 100% of those eligible to vote cast their votes and now suddenly were we're smack-dab. In the middle of the mainstream apparently paddling away or something in this this is this is something that is it's just it seems to make more of a circus of it and why can't people discuss the issues of what the people want to talk about if they want to talk about gun control if they want to talk about crime do we rely too much on labels and is as a means of shorthand and more importantly, does that somehow distort the debate itself, maybe a little bit but on the other hand, I think there was some very substantial discussion of issues during this race. I mean clearly people were concerned about the gun issue clearly people have been concerned about the health care issue and that was something that and when he made a centerpiece and her campaign and and people responded to a very strongly I think the problem is not in labels particularly when they're good decent and honorable labels, like conservative and liberal but but rather that we were eroded the meaning of those labels and I'd love to have John Marty stand up and say, I'm a liberal and here's what it means and if people want to run on my ticket, I want them to declare themselves as liberal also and and to hear the same on the Republican side and giving definition to a conservative. I think that would add value to not only the political process but but would enhance the credibility of politicians and the faith we as constituents have in politicians that it ought to mean something consistently to be a liberal or conservative. Let me ask you one other thing that the gentleman raised one other point in that is I would do you think it's that the people who voted yesterday do they represent the so-called mainstream Minnesotan or are we still talking about a fairly select group of people at low actual numbers and the other hand we will expect to see substantially higher numbers in the general election. So I don't think it's true to say that people are utterly disinterested and disaffected from politics all the way around. No, I I think that while you get small numbers and it's still something of a cross section of it. Certainly it represents a cross-section of philosophies just by looking at who the candidates are in the the boat that they draw would suggest that but it also draws a more educated voter more involved folder somebody who probably participating in the political process color from Saint Paul is on the line Joe go ahead and good. Mr. Grant is vulnerable in the general election for two reasons first credibility problem number one with a personal tax problems as well. As a number to which is his the abuse of the franking privilege is male privilege that's come out within the recent months and number to the second reason of his vulnerability would be as extremism his statements about not giving the alleged cop-killer. Mr. Baker a jury trial judge. Summarily executing them and then secondly all of his quiz supporters about how everyone who is supporting Quest is now going to be with Mr. Graham to Mr. Grimmmz caters to those people. I just like to hear that. Thank you say Sarah if you are running in one of his campaign with those be the two things you target. I think we can expect to hear and Winnie attacking grams on these ethics issues. These are issues that didn't just pop up in the last several weeks there issues that have dogged him throughout his political life and I think they will be hearing a lot more about that from an wynia on the other issue. The issue of of Graham's extremism. I think that we will absolutely be seeing more of that Rod grams. As I said before is attempted to distance himself from Allen Quist, but there really is no not much difference between grams and Conquest aside from their hairdos and pretty faces and access to in a well-run teleprompters. They're very very similar kind of candidates and I think that and when he will be very skillful, In her ability to draw grams out and allow the public to see the real ride grams. No because I think the people understand and again it's reflected in the vote totals yesterday that I'm well Rod grams and Allen Quist agree on a good number of issues there areas of emphasis a far far different Rod grams is giving voice to the finding an appropriate role for government it to living within our means those kinds of bread and butter economic issues that I think are important to the people of Minnesota on the personal side of the business tax issue has been kind of beaten to death and when you get into personal character assassinations, it is difficult for a Democrat to do that. You don't give in the history of of a collapses in both parties among all candidates in the the last couple of years. I don't think that those kinds of issues watch very much. Or the score pertaining to his abuse of the franking privilege and his own personal financial problems is that he is such a champion of cutting taxes and cutting spending and so he leaves himself wide open to criticism on that score well, but you're going to have a candidate and in John Marti who's going to run on an Ethics issue. I didn't hear John Marti give voice to the problems of a d long or on Welly or or Bill Luther jumping to to win an office and end and clearly carpetbagging m&a I think all candidates are are vulnerable and more importantly, I think people are a pretty sick and tired of those kinds of personal attacks that moved too far from the the bread-and-butter issue that it's not just a personal attack. It's a question of ethics and personal integrity and I don't think people are tired of that at all. I think people care about that very very deeply. I think they care about it when it's relevant. I'm not sure that what we have heard here is relevant mean Franking privilege Sarah who are the biggest users of of the Frank. It's it's the democratically-controlled Congress every member of Congress with very few exceptions makes extensive use of the franking privilege. Well, well one major exception here is Rod grams. He used it more than anyone else. Well, but but sorry, there's a long tradition of dfl use of the franking privilege and proper to use it all I'm I'm not saying it's in proper to use that. I'm just pointing out that he used it more than all of the rest of the Congress people can combine and that's a lot of users. But again, that's not a typical. All right. All right. Let's go back to the phone. Sarah from Rochester's are the line High difficulty and only to vote against Quest. I thought it was a dangerous candidate and I didn't particularly what even look at the other Republican candidates but vote for a Or whatever, but I thought it was most important to vote against Quist. I even if it's that meant giving Arne Carlson the vote and I definitely will be voting Democratic in the November race. And that I think there might have been more people out there like me who are Minnesota to don't want a candidate like quiz, Steven getting on the ballot whenever any evidence from the preliminary information that's come out so far that there are a lot of people like Sarah from Rochester or just a few or we know that you and anecdotal evidence. But I think it will be substantial totals. When you go back in there the preliminary numbers from the Secretary of State's office is that the turnout was about 26% That's exactly the number to Star Tribune used in its survey that was published Sunday and in determining where the races were at and the margin of victory for Arne Carlson is pretty consistent with what that survey was showing yet. Survey just went to people who had identified themselves as independent Republican. No doubt. There was some crossover but but instead of focusing on that where I aren't Carlson, I'd look at that as an opportunity saying you voted for me. Once I now want to prove the case that you ought to vote for me again. I think those now are his voters to lose. Well, I disagree with that and I think that Arne Carlson has some extreme vulnerabilities for example in Greater Minnesota. He just simply has never been able to establish much of a strong base secondarily in the metro area. I think he's quite vulnerable to John Martis attack on his over-reliance on the property tax as a very unfair way of collecting the public revenues are necessary to run our state and so I think he's very vulnerable. I think Marty has a good chance of cutting into his Metro base. And I think Arne Carlson says when I inherited this date from eight years of democratic Administration with a 1.8 billion dollar shortfall. I put the fiscal house in order there. There's nothing to suggest but that if you turn the government over to another Democratic Administration, we won't face the same kind of economic problems to the extent that he did put the fiscal has an order. He did it on the backs of property taxpayers. And as we have seen people are very fed up with it and everybody every public policy analyst will say we have to reform the property tax system that Arne Carlson has taken the lead in doing that ought to be recognized as an issue of leadership not an issue of of class to visit as of of rural versus Metro, but rather of putting States fiscal house in order and showing the kind of leadership the people say they want from politicians. He has only taken the lead in reforming it to the extent that he has shifted our reliance. And property taxes and so that we are relying more and more on this very regressive unfair method of taxing people sifting through the The Embers from yesterday's a primary election. Looking forward to the November general election. We have another caller on the line from St.Paul. Go ahead please I'm calling to my name's Dale. What's another baby? Well, I I voted for Ernie Carlson the last election and I plan to vote for him again. I'm usually Democratic voter and I do like him I suppose because I'm a renter I don't worry about property taxes. I'm concerned about the perceived strengths of the Republican party. I think for Minnesota have a strong and good legislation. I think that we need to have both parties fairly strong and I'm wondering how that the religious right influx in. The last few years is affecting than that. And that's one reason why I decided to vote in the primary to August support attorney Carlson. How is that going to say to him that as a renter, he more than most people in the state ought to worry about property taxes because through his rent. He is paying one of the highest property tax rates not just in the state but in the country on on the future of the Republican party and and where the elmquist people go, I think Arne Carlson again has a great opportunity to take those voters whether they were modders new people or Democratic Crossovers and build a new future for the Republican party in Minnesota. One of the Did the real losers frankly in in yesterday's primary was the structure of the Republican party in with with one exception every endorsed constitutional office candidate on the Republican side lost in and yes, you can argue that it was because a lot of new people are coming into the poles and they didn't know the name, but the other side of that coin is that the party didn't do the job in supporting the endorsed candidates that that it should have an Arne Carlson did a very good job and redefining the party he needs to continue to do that and part of his strength and doing that I think will come from two of the biggest winners in in yesterday's primary and that is House minority leader Steve swiggum in the end someone already leader Dean Johnson, they went way out on a limb and in supporting Arne Carlson and because they did that they now have the opportunity to participate with Arne Carlson in winning. I would hope even though I'm a Jew Do you know the House of Representatives and reinvigorating the Republican party and and consequently the two party system in Minnesota surprising some people although not to me lessons from yesterday's primary was the different levels of support that each party gave its candidates for the Democratic party did a very good job of supporting all of its candidates from the top of the ticket all the way down to the minor candidates with a great deal of infrastructure support. And that simply was not true on the Republican side. That's a clear contrast that I think we should keep in mind when thinking about what will happen to November. That's Point. Number one point number two is has been a lot of discussion about the demise of the caucus system in the weakening of the importance of the endorsement in while we may raise some questions about what's going on in the Republican party as a result of what we saw yesterday. I think that the Democratic party has said the dfl has really Vindicated itself. Warrior leader of this morning and she was just adamant that certainly she personally wanted nothing to do with Arne Carlson. She was going to go look if we didn't matter if John Marty one or not. She wanted no part of as far as she was concerned. She figured the rest of people like her just absolutely will not sign on and and and work with Carlson that sounds like a party divided to me. I think there will certainly be that narrow range of of Kathy Warriors and that has been the criticism of that faction of the party for a long long time that they are not interested in the party. They're not interested in Republican principles of governance. They're interested in promoting a very narrow agenda to them. I would say so long good luck and and good to be rid of your frankly to take his 470 is 317000 volts and go out and build a new party on Republican traditional Republican principles that include respect for the family that include respect for the individual that include strong family values. I just remind you I will not have 317000 votes because number one he's going to lose the Democratic crossover votes and number to the Kathy Warriors of the world that will stay home from the poles will will will not help him at all I all I think this is going to significantly hurt Rod grams because remember Rod grams is a very similar candidate Allen Quist. And if Kathy Ward doesn't show up to vote for Arne Carlson. She won't show up to vote for ride grams either presumably and that's going to eat at his base in a very substantial way looking at the the primaries in the the two parties would look at John Marty and say I'll take John Martis position today over Arne Carlson Summit. John Marty has a party that also is divided has a party that could produce a winning margin Force endorsed candidate only by drawing from a very narrow Geographic and philosophical base. Where is Arne Carlson did show Statewide support of checking on the collar Micah from Cottage Grove is on the line. Hi. Hi how you doing? For years ago? I a normal a democratic person was absolutely disgusted by all the Democratic candidates for Governor and Republican as well. So when Just was pushed out of the campaign more or less. How's that was happy event for me because I had a least worst Choice another words Carlson. So this year I was absolutely repulsed by Graham and Cliff. So I'm one of those people who crossed over. when I voted for Dish dad, I was just Hoping against hope that she would win instead of Graham can your commentary especially Republican of it? I should have time. Please answer this question. Why did not win? What should she have done to win? And secondly, what does Winnie have to do to make sure that she beats Graham? Keirstead should have drawn out her opposition the way wynia Drew out the differences between she and Tom Foley and that is what we need and we'll have to continue to do and I am certain will do in a very capable way. She will be able to Define Rod grams as a representative of the extremist right? There said just simply was never able to sharpen her message and sharpen her Focus to the extent that she could distinguish herself in a very clear away from her opposition unfortunate thing for the party and in some people would suggest that they have a winning Republican candidate for the United States Senate in Rod grams mean here's a guy who has done a very effective job of of the retail level of campaign and going around a small groups and and very effectively communicating up a position that distinguishes himself from Alan quest in that he's not narrowly focused. And end his emphasis is on those kinds of bread-and-butter economic issues that matter not just to Republicans. But but to a lot of minnesotans, I think the proof in the pudding again is that Rod grams grew substantially more votes than than Alan quisp 280000 to 260,000 able to do that is because people did not understand the distinction between he and general Pierceton. In fact, I think people didn't understand and it is because they understood that they voted for Rod grams. I think they also signed Rod grams a candidate who can women November a candidate to very effectively can communicate the Republican message and a candidate who will have the the kind of money. It will take to win against a very well-financed and when you well and I think that's a very good point one one major area of difference between Rod grams in Allen Quist is Rod grams of Woody to draw money and so we did see the combination of big money and far right-wing extremism in his campaign answer with. Yes. You was dead Rod grams did not spend very much money in the primary didn't need to spend very much money because he very effectively campaign in in the style that a lot of people say everybody out of campaign the very personal very one and one very very down-to-earth. It was an wynia who was drawing all the national money spending huge amounts of money to what what time Foley would say lie about his record just that it's Rod grams ability to mask this kind of extreme position about embracing the IR platform at that convention. He went into it with open arms position that you don't like that you think is out of step with most minnesotans on the bread-and-butter economic issues. Where is Rod Graham? I think that Rod grams is out of step in virtually every area in Social areas. He is a very very conservative and Embraces values that are exclusionary rather than inclusionary and that doesn't represent Minnesota economic issues that government what audit live within its means that we ought to to text tax lessons in and spend less he wants to live if Government to live within its means and yet he votes to support the super collider, for example, let's move on and rec room battle foxy news a person that I have what we sent is a misrepresentation of Rod grams record and a misunderstanding of Rod grams record, which is why I needed the win the primary Roberts on the line from Coon Rapids. Go ahead to Sarah from Rochester and the last candidate Play cross party lines. I guess I just don't know the reasoning on the primary why individuals cannot cross party lines and if they did cross party lines because they're afraid of a particular kind like Sarah from Rochester didn't want Quest. What is the history on as anyone ever won on a right in after they lost the primary? They were not on the ballot. I guess that was my question cuz of Sarah to say voted across party lines cuz she didn't want Quest and her can it didn't make in the primary the Kennedys she did want. Is there anyone that's one on the right and then take him in reverse order has her as a major Canada ever won on the right in not that I'm aware of a suspect at the closest. Anyone ever came was in 1990 when Arne Carlson was about to mount a write-in campaign that most people thought would at least be credible probably couldn't win but it would at least be credible and then ground set left the ticket and and Carlson became the that you can Now the first part of this question, you know, we always here while you if you can't you can't vote in both columns or pick a pick and choose because it's a it's a primary but yet on the other hand anybody can vote in these things and Independence can go and they can pick either Republican or Democrat. Why not both? Why not the governor in the Democratic Republicans in the Senate pretty well because the primary and and that's the purpose of the primary. I think what you're you're allowing me to dependents to go in there and walk around. Anyways, you're asking Independence to be consistent in supporting a philosophy a ticket. It is more than just voting for individual candidates. And I think we've lost that because we've lost a lot of the recognition of how valuable political parties can be when they're properly structured in and do the kinds of things that they used to do wood. What primaries are designed to do is Advanced the candidates of a party that A relatively consistent philosophy would you also want to avoid in the primary is the Mischief of of somebody going in to vote against somebody and then Crossing back and forth we leave that to the general election Mark for Minneapolis is on the line. I was calling to voice the observation that I have a lot of gay and lesbian voters that are friends of mine had voted across over because they felt an obligation to Carlson and it actually sort of speaks to the experience that people experience with parties which was for many years gays and lesbians had in the party platform is dfl supporting gay and lesbian rights and yet they weren't able to do in the Democratic governor perpich with the Democratic democratically-controlled House and Senate and they began to feel a lot more allegiance to people who actually stood up and took stand on the issues. Marty has done that. Do you think that those voters will go back and support John Marty in the giant strictly on the abortion and the game lesbian rights issues and didn't feel they were getting that kind of satisfaction from perpich and and then felt that since he had actually delivered on having a fabulous find I felt an obligation to defeat Kristen help Carlson out for the fear that if if indeed Carlson had lost his primary, he would not have the Republicans would never touch skin lesbian rights issues again in to Arne Carlson on one hand and an extreme fear of Allen Quist on the other hand systems. They just they had us a strong reaction across as matter fact. I talked to a couple of them afterwards and I was very surprised that people were doing that because I'm more of a a Democratic Party Loyola immediate reaction was they didn't realize once they got in there and started voting for Carlson that that meant they had to put the Republicans. I wonder if if that'll affect in the future but I do think of Carlson brings out or if he brings out his record or strongly I think that will happen. I the only reason I mention the other was I don't think they really were prepared to vote for grams or or you're sad and I didn't really know who those people were. Alright. Thanks for your call Mark. Let's go to our next caller. Let the question or comment. Yes with some five of the eye are endorsed candidates of 7 losing nomination for State office house by our party going to put together a credible slate of candidates, especially since some of the nominees are not are not very credible. I'm sorry, but given the division in the Republican party is going to be very hard for the wounds to heal in time for the general election. So there's no more division in the Republican party than there is in the dfl party. Both parties are going to have to do a lot of bass building me up Tom Foley as much as calling and when you a liar and a cheat, that's hardly the basis for a 11 relationship coming into the general election. I think though that the the color does raise a very valid point that on some of these offices the Republicans simply don't have credible candidate Simon there is there's no getting around it that when you have somebody of the caliber of Sharon Anderson running for one of the state constitutional Law Offices, that's not a good situation. That's not the basis for party-building. Anybody can can make a lot of bones about that. What what you do have though in and it is so here's the good news. What you do have is the top of the ticket that that demonstrated great drawing power. Yes, there were some dfl crossovers but we've heard from the callers today are people who Voted for Arne Carlson 1990 they voted for him again this year. Yeah, they crossed over but you know, they're starting to vote Republican with some fear consistency here, whatever they call themselves, as long as they what Republican will take that you've heard from people who don't have strong loyalties to the dfl party and have a strong loyalty to to Arne Carlson. You can build a party around a person that the problem in the past has been that Arne Carlson hasn't wanted to participate in that but I think this is a change turn to Carl's at night. I think this process has awakened him and we now have the opportunity to head to build around not only Arne Carlson, but again the strong relationship that he developed with the legislative the Republican legislative leaders that the. Form a good base and Tom, how do you think Arne Carlson is going to go about bringing back? The Quist folks into the party? I think so I'm to bring back on the economically issues some you bring back on the the family value issues on. And they agree and some you just cut off and I I just think that's going to be the majority of them. So many of them are there because what I'm saying is that so many of those quiz folks are there on the kind of family value quote on quote issues that are very simply separate Carlson and and Quist in a very Stark way and compare that lifts Jon grunseth 169,000 votes in September of 1990 and find a pretty high degree of commonality yet. Those same people turned out in November to vote for Arne Carlson. I think they'll be there in November of 1994 and I think they they have the potential to form a base that that can reinvigorate Republic turn the Kathy War. I have to go back to the phones Paul from St. Paul's on the line height. Despite in some of the radick behavioral Rudy perpich, but the last year that he was in office the tfl legislature voted in a two-year budget and I remember that it was a 23.4% increase over two years and you could factor out approximately 3 1/2 per cent per annum if that would be inflation which means 23.4% - 7% of the time when the recession was still on people's incomes were dropping you were seeing almost in an eight and a half percent per year real in increase in real dollars over to your. And that was scary and I suspected that those Tendencies are still there and it's just a question of keeping them in check. And as soon as we let those people in that means, you know, where the top five in the country in terms of Taxation. And it's just going to take off again. I think we'll go pay the number one. And the other thing is I'm enjoying your to panelist but there was a woman that Sara you're a little too stride and you trying to make points all the time and I take time to actually come off as much more effective because you're more balanced and honest in your comments. I thank you for your media criticism. And last time last time and I were on I was too tired old. Let me make one comment to call her because I think he does make a good point that more and more people are paying very close attention to bread and butter economic issues what the state is bending and how that affects us as as the quality-of-life issues on the ability to keep a job. One of the things that happened in this year's primary that has not happened before that. I think you do see reflected in Carlson's vote total much more than any dfl crossover much more than anything else. Is that for the first time? Business Community got involved not at the level of the CEOs or of the senior executive but by approaching the employees of 7000 + businesses around the state and educating them on issues not to say vote for Carlson or vote for quiz to vote for Marty. But to say here are the issues here is how you get involved. Here's how you are to evaluate your candidates and end the evaluation was on how how economic issues affect income and and jobs and wages and and that paid huge dividends and I think we'll be an enormous fact in the general election car also points out another somewhat troubling dichotomy that all politicians have to deal with on one hand people complain an awful lot about paying taxes on the other hand people are attending to treat their government very much as if they are consumers of government services and they want government services and we hear all the time that they want more of this. More that are or a better delivery of this or that and and yet aren't aren't willing to to Annie up and pay for it to the phones here. But are we going to get a good solid discussion between Carlson and and Marty on the economic issues because there are some pretty significant difference is really a significant difference in the approach to how to deal with government and Society problem to try to marginalize John Marty as a candidate who only cares about ethics the reality is that ethics and some of these campaign Finance questions impact directly on how economic issues are debated within the political Arena 2. I think Arne Carlson will make the centerpiece of his campaign these economic issues in the future of Minnesota and and the appropriate role of government in his View and and what government ought to do and the limitations on government. I'm not sure John Marty will carry that same theme and end in answer to your question then Gary. I don't think you'll get as much of a debate. I think what you'll see our two candidates one who is focused on I'm only going to take $100 and I'm at the call in the other who is more focused on on these bread-and-butter economic issues Teresa from Alexandria is on the line. Hello. I'm calling first. I want to say that I love MPR because I'm going to be the media critic that they just said last night when I'm going to talk about and it's happening today the representatives that you have in your studio who are debating these issues are Democrats and the Republicans and I guess personally I would like to hear experts political science people historians. I was really looking forward to the discussion at noon. And this is the same thing that happened last night on Channel 4. They had Younce maybe on for the Democrats and Rudy boschwitz on for the Republicans and all it ends up being is a talk fast over over what what sound bites I want to get in. All right. Well your plants well-made. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right, let's move on to the next person question. The comment is on campaign Finance reform. It seems that John Marty one on that issue in his example and in his history and the fact that Tony bouza and Mike Hatch said they can run a special interest, but they were sneaking endorsements. Shrimp scampi in your question. When is campaign Finance reform really going to happen? Well, so I'll be a little bit of the historian here to satisfy the other caller campaign Finance reform depends on when it's discussed who's in power and where the money is coming from. There was a time when Democrats were were were violently anti Pac political action committee because they weren't getting the money from political action committees that money was going to Republican candidates packs started to change their philosophy and became much more means for access to promote access which meant that you gave the money to incumbents and most of the incumbent for Democrats. And so now Democrats get a good chunk of their funding from political action committees and a lot of of Democrats don't want to put significant limitations on unpacked by contrast Republicans get a lot of their money from from individuals and are are loath to put any kind of of limitations on in Vegetables because it means that the only way I can do it is you have to accept public financing and public financing put the cap on how much you can spend that tends to give an advantage to the incumbent and there were back to the Democrats again until both parties approach this issue. Not as as good public policy, but rather what's going to benefit us politically from our very narrow interest. I think the only way campaign financing is going to be resolved is and I hate to do this because I think it's an abdication of elected offices roll, but I think you have to set up some kind of an independent Observer of of campaign and figure out some middle ground that that maintains a competitive balance and races yet puts a limit on the enormous amount of money that is is being channeled into politics, you know, a lot of people have said that John Marty was not acting in his own best self-interest in refusing to take money from Pacs and refusing to take contributions of Over $100. I think he has been really pretty clear with respect to his feelings about packs as have some other politicians too. And I don't know that it's not in their best interest. In fact, I think we say that he was able to raise quite a bit of money, but do it in these small chunks and and run a very competitive race. When you talk about limitations on Pax, however, I gram create and I got a kind of a different spin on this I voted for hatching fully. And I am I seem to have a problem. I think the Democrats are going to have trouble because I look at that. I just can't afford the kind of government that that the John Marty wants to give me and the same with and when he is so I'm going to do what I did last time and vote for Charleston. And as far as Graham goes he's not where I want on the social issues but his fiscal policy is a lot more where I'm at the end when he is at and I just I'd like to comment on that how many Democrats are going to cross over again? Because the question and brief answers folks. I I just I think he's he's in the minority. I think that and when he is really representing not the kind of big tax bigspin kind of liberalism that people have tried to describe her as is espousing, but in fact is representing a very reason kind of thoughtful approach similarly what John Marty is advocating is a Preventive approach to some of the kinds of social problems that that take up a lot of our tax dollars could have put up never got past the convention because the dfl convention is as narrow as the Republican convention. Isn't that was Mike Freeman the second most difficult candidate for an Arne Carlson to to defeat is my cat again because he feels to that same kind of mainstream Minnesotan that Arne Carlson does Mike Hatch couldn't get past the dfl primary I think and wynia and John Marty will be painted as I'm very far to the left and rightly so my cat is failure to get past the primary head more to do with his perceived flip-flopping and some key issues and it did with his more moderate the some might say moderate physical positions. I think four years ago. We had all probably the wildest maybe the dirtiest campaign them and I Long long time state of Minnesota course, all the attention was focused on the governor's race at the senate race got pretty nasty 15 seconds the same thing this year as it's going to be pretty Placid by comparison. Now, you'll never have a repeat of 1990 got high like but I I think we will not see the same kind of intensely negative having said that you'll certainly see compare and contrast and yes, you'll see some shots across the Bow by all candidates in all Races because that's become a very extensive meaningful sevens of discussion of the issues because there are some very significant issues that distinguish these candidates from one another it's too bad that you aren't a political scientist. So it's degrees, you know, Alice Time Warner and Sarah States been kind enough to come by today for today Gary I can thanks for tuning in.