(00:00:00) Russia Iraq, Bosnia Somalia now Haiti and Bill Clinton was running for president last year. He made it clear that he was going to focus on domestic issues and it seemed that most American voters agreed wholeheartedly with that Focus but foreign problems just won't go away and today on. Midday. We're going to spend some time looking at the latest flash point facing the United States namely the situation in Haiti joining us today is Sarah to cause who doesn't attorney with the group Minnesota advocates for human rights. She's visited Haiti on several occasions in recent years and just returned Monday from her latest visit to meet with human rights organizations operating on the island now before we get to our callers, if I thought it might be useful to catch up on recent events in Haiti. Actually the US has been involved in Haiti since at least 1915 when US troops were sent to Haiti for what turned out to be an extended occupation, but public and Congressional attention really focused on Haiti about a week ago when US troops were scheduled to land in Port-au-Prince to help enforce the governor's Island. At that was reached last summer. That's the agreement that calls for the restoration of the our state government in Haiti national public. Radio's Ted Clark picks up the story one week ago President Clinton ordered an American troop ship to turn around and leave Haitian Waters taking with it some 200 US and Canadian troops who were supposed to enter Haiti as part of the governor's Island agreement. They were to help with construction projects and training but Haitian authorities staged a noisy demonstration on the docks of Port-au-Prince and refused to open the slip where the troop ship was to birth President Clinton decided not to force the issue and he ordered the USS Harlan County to sail away. I was not about to put 200 American Seabees into a potentially dangerous situation for which they were neither neither trained nor armed to deal with at that moment. The president had other options besides withdrawing the ship. He could have brought in more heavily armed troops to protect the construction and training soldiers from the Harlan County as they came ashore Administration. We'll say a quick reaction force was nearby or the president could have kept the troop ship in the harbor of Port-au-Prince while increasing diplomatic and economic pressure on authorities there to let it DOC. Mr. Clinton rejected that option. (00:02:13) I did not want to leave the boat in the harbor. So that that became the symbol of the debate. I pulled the boat out of the harbor to emphasize that the (00:02:20) Haitian parties themselves who are still there in Haiti are (00:02:24) responsible for violating the governor's Island (00:02:27) agreement with the deaths of US troops in Somalia still a vivid memory and with more and more Americans questioning the need for GIS to assist un operations the decision to withdraw the USS Harlan County from Haiti was a politically convenient one, but the decision contributed to a frightening chain of events inside Haiti itself emboldening Hades military dictatorship, according to Joseline McCullough executive director of the National Coalition for Haitian refugees. He says the protesters on the docks were bluffing and they won their test of will with the I did States. Everybody was astonished that the United States appear to have gotten cold feet and got scared by a few dozen people from that point on things quickly begun to unravel within hours of the Harlan County's departure gunman fired weapons outside the home of Dante Caputo the UN special Envoy in Haiti the next day Wednesday human rights monitors in the north of the country were confronted by mobs on Thursday two days after the Harlan County left some 50 Canadian mounties already in Haiti were ordered out concern began to mount about the safety of aristide supporters in Haiti, especially prime minister malval and his advisors President Clinton warned Haitian authorities not to harm them. Then GE Mallory Marvel's Minister of Justice and a key aristide supporter was assassinated in broad daylight in what seemed to be a deliberate provocation. Into the United States on Friday, the deadline for Haiti's military ruler to step down came and went Raul said you are simply ignored it the next day Saturday American troops who were already in Haiti as an advance team for the United Nations were pulled out with no protection from US troops human rights monitors in Haiti were forced to withdraw as well aristide supporters felt exposed and vulnerable many went into hiding after pulling out. The G is the Clinton Administration sought and won un approval for renewed sanctions against Haiti and now the administration is hoping the resulting economic pressure will force military authorities in Haiti to abide by the governor's Island agreement Kenneth Roth Executive Director of Human Rights Watch says that agreement will have to be strengthened if aresty does ever to return to power one key element of I think is to begin a process of purging the army of the mass murderers to show once and for all that you cannot literally get away with murder. It is not enough. Ralph says to remove the top leadership of the army early this year when President Clinton ordered the Coast Guard to begin returning Haitian boat people to their country against their will he justify the decision in part by saying he was stepping up efforts to restore democracy in Haiti, if those efforts fail now much of the moral underpinning for the policy of forced repatriation will be gone. This is Ted Clark in Washington. Developments today Amnesty International is urging the White House to put extra pressure on Haiti to stop the killings in that country and its criticizing the Clinton Administration for refusing to allow the Haitian refugees into the United States. Amnesty International says at least 1,000 people were killed by the military since its overthrow of the democratically elected president. Jean-bertrand aristide in September of 1991. Meanwhile an aide to ousted President aristide says that us and un envoys are now a pressuring pro-democracy prime minister Robert Mulvey all to include ministers loyal to the military in an expanded Haitian government Smallville for his part is threatening to quit unless Hades military and police chief stepped down by October 30th. Well, that's where we stand today and joining us now is as we said was Sarah de Caso the Minnesota advocates for human rights. He's just back from Haiti. Thanks for coming in. Appreciate it. Were you one of those? Human rights monitors who were confronted by Angry mobs that detect Clark was reporting (00:06:27) on no not at all. Those monitors were members of The Joint United Nations and organization of American states mission that was in Haiti until the entire un mission was removed last Friday and (00:06:40) Saturday. Did you get a sense of personal danger while you were down (00:06:44) there? No, I didn't things are very tense in the streets of Port-au-Prince. People are very nervous. And certainly those affiliated with human rights organizations have had Direct threats against their organizations and against individuals, but I did not feel any personal threat while I was there (00:07:02) how widespread is the opposition in Haiti to this un agreement? Is this a fairly broad based group that is opposing the UN agreement just a narrow group of basically thugs. What are we talking about here? (00:07:20) I would say that it's a very narrow group. When President aristide was elected he won the election with 67% of the vote. It was a very very strong Victory with broad broad popular support and my sense is that he still has a great deal of support the vocal opposition seems to be a rather small one. However, they're very well-armed. They're willing to be extremely violent as they've demonstrated over and over again and recently they've been particularly successful in having the attention of the international press Corps upon them. So I think that actually the Press attention that they've received might have exaggerated their actual popularity in Haiti. (00:08:04) Do you think that the president made a mistake by having that boat turn around and go back or should the US and the UN forces just pushed ahead and come on shore. (00:08:17) I don't know that I'd call it a mistake. But I think that there are certain factors that might have been evaluated in different ways. For example as Jocelyn makalah commented in the introduction The Presence at the dock was in truth not particularly large. It appears that these were members these were at sachets who are sort of the enforcers for the military and the police force in the Port-au-Prince area and in the rural areas and whether they represented broader popular opposition to the arrival of the American ship I think is very questionable. So I think that might have been something that could have been evaluated differently. (00:08:56) Is there a is there a lingering distaste in Haiti about past us actions down there gunboat diplomacy all that or are the people that kind of the average Haitian looking to us for help more than Looking Backward to sins committed in the (00:09:15) past. There's a very We're distinction. The popular feeling in the streets is certainly that people would welcome United States intervention and that I had a very clear impression of and the spoke with many people about there has been a lot of coverage again of these people known as the Otis Shay's particularly a group that was recently created known as frappe, which is the front for the advancement and progress of Haiti and that organization again is very closely linked to the military and the police they have taken a very nationalistic stance, but most in Haiti would say that in truth this nationalism is nothing but a cover as a means to to protect their their power in Haiti. (00:10:05) Now, we have heard a lot about Raul cedrus the military leader and then Francois Joseph Francois or Michelle first time. I saw your head of the police. Port-au-Prince, are they they in fact the two most powerful people in Haiti at this (00:10:22) point. Yes, they are and they Michelle Francois His official position is the as you mentioned the police chief of Port-au-Prince in truth. His power is far far more broadly reaching than that. They both as I mentioned are very willing to be extremely violent in the past two years. They've committed wide wide human rights violations including executions arbitrary detentions and torture the human rights platform in Haiti has documented upwards of 3,000 cases. And as you mentioned Amnesty International has documented upwards of 1,000 deaths attributed to military and police forces. So they they are certainly the leaders. They're very reluctant to step down to let go of the power that they have and as you saw the October 15th deadline for To give up power has passed and they continue to be to be pushing to maintain (00:11:21) control Our Guest today is saridakis who is with the Minnesota advocates for human rights. She has just returned from from another trip to Haiti. Let's go to a collar with a question or comment. Hi, you're on Minnesota Public Radio station in the Coast Guard in 1983, and I was involved in some of the Haitian migration operations that were taking place off the coast of Haiti during the Diwali am Administration with baby Doc and found that Haiti was the most impoverished country I've ever visited in my entire existence and I was really you could you could sense the tension that was there at the time that the end military definitely had a control over the people and what I'm wondering is is has there with with the changes that have happened and they had these two administrations even with the small end time that are studied was We Empower can you actually expect that this country is going to ever be able to move away from the military power that is enforced on its people is democracy really something that's viable in (00:12:31) Haiti. Well, I think that our steeds brief term as the acting president of Haiti based in Haiti. He was in power for eight months from February of 1991 until the coup d'etat and September 30th of 1991 during that time the numbers of refugees seeking asylum in the United States dropped significantly people had a tremendous amount of hope. I was in hating that period and there truly was a was a notable enthusiasm and optimism in the streets and people really felt that the change had come that the election as was noted by International observers had been an honest and a fair one and He had won a significant by a significant Victory. So I think that that continues to present the greatest hope and Haiti that they had if only for that brief period they did have true democracy and people in Haiti continue to hope that if the IRS did government can be restored to power that that they can continue to move in that direction certainly since the coup d'etat and the two years that have passed since Civil Society in Haiti has suffered terribly a number of the changes that I received was trying to make for example, the division of the military and police and the control of rural police chief's known as the chef de sexy on who have a long reputation for violence and in the rural areas already stated attempted to control all of those those players in in the Haitian society and was having some success since the coup d'etat. There's been a great regression and Slipping backwards, so I can't see into the crystal ball to predict what will happen. But I think that I received certainly presented a great hope and his his election was was this was a symbol that perhaps Haiti can move (00:14:30) forward there been charges that while he was actually in power. There was a lot of political violence to directed against his opponents. So who could like the shoe was on the other foot is that true (00:14:42) there during his Reign there was political violence on a popular popular level and this has happened in Haiti a number of times before when baby doc duvalier left the country in 1986. There was a great deal of political of popular violence directed against the Tonton macoutes when I seed came into Power there was similar incidents particularly prior to his actual inauguration following his inauguration those number of incidents drop significantly and during his reign Political violence committed by the Haitian authorities again has is no way can be compared to what has happened since (00:15:25) then other callers on the line with a question or comment how you're a Minnesota Public Radio. Hello. My name is Neil. I'm from Mounds View. I read an article in I think it was a new Republic. Don't quote me on that that said that era Steed was in favor of necklacing now for those of you who don't know what that is. It was invented in South Africa. It's where you take a tire fill it with gasoline scrap it to an individual and light it on fire. It is an extremely horrible and gruesome death. If Aris deed is in favor of necklacing and according to magazine article, he had a painting in his office that he said was his favorite painting and that he extolled the virtues of necklacing for the suppression of political Rivals. I'm wondering if maybe the military isn't stepping in to protect the citizenry from another bloodthirsty killer like Duval. Yay. I'll hang up and listen to the answer and a touching on the same thing we did before but little different (00:16:32) slant. Yes, the the reference that you've made to our students condoning the use of necklacing stems from a speech that he gave on September 27th 1991 and I have that portions of that speech here in the speech. He was facing a potential coup d'etat and address the situation with remarks as to the conditions in the country some of his comments were As follows your tool is in your hand. Your instrument is in your hand. Your Constitution is in your hand don't neglect to give him what he deserves and then he went on and commented what a beautiful tool what a beautiful instrument what a beautiful Appliance and in this the actual reference to necklacing never appears literally many people did interpret that as a reference to necklacing the use of the tool. The only distinct reference to the word tool was in regard to the Haitian Constitution and using that as a tool to bring to bring Justice (00:17:33) as a practical matter. I mean is era Steed a true Democrat in the way that we might normally think about it or is he just seen here as the lesser of two (00:17:40) evils? I think that. If in fact his endorsement of the necklacing means of justice of popular Justice is correct. Then there certainly are democratic means within the judicial system to pursue a remedy for that for that behavior in terms of his own views on Democracy. I wouldn't be able to comment exactly what those are I certainly can come and however that he was democratically elected as the president of Haiti in an affair and adjust election. So I think also that there has been a very strong campaign to discredit our esteemed particularly using this reference to necklacing I wholeheartedly condemned the practice of necklacing and in no way would like to minimize it when the caller mentioned however that the present government is trying to protect themselves against another duvalier. I think that it's extremely Really important to look at the practices of the present government to look at the violence that occurred during our steeds regime compared to the violence which has occurred since and the human rights violations that have occurred since September 30th 1991 are extreme. They truly are extreme and they are far more extreme than anything that occurred during our steeds term in addition. If you look at the history of the commentary on these on this particular speech the sources from which this commentary has has come were for example from the Prime Minister the first Prime Minister under the military dictatorship and he was a very active proponent of this argument again, I think in comparison with The Human Rights records under that that man's regime. It merits careful (00:19:41) analysis Our Guest is Sarah to cause who is an attorney with the Minnesota advocates. Human rights. She's just back from Haiti current military leader rolf's a dress says that 10,000 people died as a result of the previous economic sanctions imposed on Haiti. And that many many more are going to die now with the UN reimposing those sanctions. Is he (00:20:04) correct? I think that this will largely depend on the efficacy of the Embargo if the Embargo is applied with strength as certainly we've seen on the on the coastal borders on the sea borders of Haiti. I think that will have a tremendous effect. It needs to be applied if truly to be effective along the border with the Dominican Republic which has very active transport between the two countries and has a very active Contraband between the two countries. My sense is that if in fact they successfully closed the Dominican border as well as the port's to Haiti the the effect of the Embargo might in fact occur quickly before an issue such as starvation would become a danger in the past when General sudras came to the table for the Governor's Island Accords this past July. Embargo was in effect for 10 days. So the military in recent history responded very quickly to the effect of the Embargo and it did bring them forward and sort of break their their will to to continue (00:21:21) but who do you think is going to be affected the most assuming this remains in effect for a while? Will it be in fact be the the leadership that we're trying to influence over there? Will it be the average Haitian again at the bottom of the totem pole going to suffer the most (00:21:35) right? I think that certainly the the military with the kind of control they have over the Haitian population can limit the effect of the Embargo on themselves personally. However, I think it certainly will have an effect on their ability to function their ability to continue to repress most significantly in the amount of fuel that's available to them and certainly the numbers of weapons that are available to them. So I think that again it's difficult to say exactly what the impact will be. I think they'll certainly will be an impact on all sectors of Haitian Society. (00:22:10) Do you think what's your best guess do you think that in fact it will will open the door for our steeds return anytime close to the October 30th the scheduled date or no (00:22:24) this again this will this will be a guess right but I think at this point the the governor's Island Accord called for Sid Ross and Francois to resign on October 15th, they have failed to do so, it called for the malval government to take to take power and they have been unable to do so because of death threats against them and of course the recent assassination of game Mallory, so I think that a lot of the groundwork that needs to be in place before our esteemed could return has not yet happened. So my supposition would be that with the Embargo that will probably speed things up a bit but there are certainly several other steps that need to take place before our esteemed could successfully returned. (00:23:06) Lots of callers are on the line with questions and comments. Let's go back to the phones. Hi, my name is Lyle. I'm calling from Edina answer to comment the previous. First of all like to thank your your guests to Sarah for being on the air with such intelligent cometary. She's obviously very perceptive Observer of the scene in Haiti. Secondly. I'm amazed that someone would call in as previous caller did and in some manner impugn the possibility of are STDs being a superior administrator to the present ministration the necklacing, you know fears are just ridiculous. Finally. My basic comment is that in connection with the threat of the use of military power US military powered Heating and for that matter elsewhere in the world. We continually hear our citizenry in our our media commentators Express the fear of losing American boys in foreign lands. And the one contradiction that I see in this approach to limiting what are certain necessary extensions of American power is that when people volunteer for the military, I mean that's part of the game. You can't say I want to I want to train to be a pilot and then refused to go on the air. We've had a military establishment. Now since the Vietnam war that has been used to sitting around Barracks collecting paychecks eating at the PC at the PX and then waiting for a 20-year retirement plan. Right isn't it difficult though to sort out when it is. I mean at the point being here, when is a proper use of force, when is a national interest actually at stake? I mean, it's somebody would have suggested for example that we send troops into Nicaragua back in the 1980s that would have met with the substantial amount of opposition, but it's clear that that what we recognize as human rights abuses are rampant and where the we're clearly the forces of internal democracy are being denied and and we can rely on other news media besides our own to establish that but in Case the simple argument that military people should not be put In Harm's Way is a contradiction of what a military occupation is all about. And I think it's absurd that that argument should be raised whether it's for conservative or liberal cause I mean that argument is ridiculous when it's applied to the use of military force and I leave it to greater minds in mind to decide whether or not you know, our national interest is at stake or what the parameters are involved in uniting forces in a particular situation, but to use that as an excuse for not extending for us for any reason to me, especially ridiculous. Okay. Thanks for your call. How do we sort out? Obviously, there are human rights violations all over the world documented regularly by groups like Amnesty International and so on. How do we sort out? Well, this one this particular situation has reached a threshold so bad that we should leave the United States should do something about this. (00:26:02) I think certainly there's there's a number of different factors that go into those decisions as an advocate of human rights. Of course, I think that you need to track the human rights violation understand how serious those violations are and work for solutions to those problems the means that you choose to do. So, I think get involved in in a much broader political discussion. (00:26:27) I mean in terms of military intervention, do you think the situation in Haiti has gotten to the point where at least the United States should consider that well that bad (00:26:38) I think the situation in Haiti is very very bad. It's been going on for a very long time and as I mentioned the destruction of society in Haiti, whether it be popular organizations, the Press human rights organizations has been very severe. I think at this point, we they have come Do the other two sort of sides to the disagreements came and agreed at Governors Island to take certain actions the most prominent amongst those it was the use of the Embargo and I think certainly that has been agreed to and at this point we're just have to wait and see how that works. And what further actions might be taken. (00:27:21) Let's go back to the phone's another question or comment. Hello. Hi. I'm calling from Duluth. Thanks for taking my call. I am glad to hear that this discussion. One thing that has perplexed me greatly is how in the world could era seed when he goes back to Haiti if he will indeed do that. How can he overcome this violent military regime that's in place. Now that seems to be backed with a lot of money and a lot of arms. I'm just wondering if the guest knows if there are what are speed has in mind for overcoming this know. Terry and I will hang up and listen to the answer. Okay. Thanks for your call. How does he deal with the entrenched military opponent police power there, which clearly is not much interested in having him back in the country. (00:28:14) Right? I think as I mentioned before there certainly are a number of paluma nari steps which need to need to occur before he could safely returned to Haiti his approach in the past when he held power in Haiti was to start to take those initial State steps to divide the police and the military. He was also in the process of um, excuse me, creating a presidential guard along the lines of our of our secret service. He also was had successfully disbanded the chef de sexy, ah who are sort of the rural enforcers for the military and their sub-lieutenants as it were the attache. So those certainly I think our number of steps that he would again try to take I think that the means by which he can move in that direction will be largely. Virtue of popular support and I think that there's a great deal of popular support people as you might imagine are are exhausted. They've been terrified for so long. They've been suffering from extortion from human rights violations personally directed at virtually any person who supported president aristide. So he continues to have a very very broad base of support and I think that that ultimately will be what allows him to move forward simply that people cannot accept this kind of violence any longer (00:29:37) take another caller with a question. Hello your turn Minneapolis. First of all, I'd like to applaud your speaker today for taking time out of making money and pursuing the American dream and on behalf of our fellow human beings in Haiti. That's that's very venerable. My question would be this given that President aristide wanted to increase the minimum wage for the Haitian. People's is it possible that there were business interests in Haiti that supported the TomTom Akutan former baby doc followers given that they would have to Fork out obviously lots more money for the cheap labor that they're enjoying and what type of us business interested we find in Haiti and then finally as a tangent to that question, would you say that our government is acting uniformly towards the same goal and and Nicaragua we saw the state department pursuing Jose moderate human right goal human right oriented goals while RCA was pursuing the end objective with the means justifying the end. Okay. Well, let's see. First of all Haiti business interests where they are. Do you think that they are in somehow connected with this whole opposition to our (00:30:54) state? Yes, very clearly when I was in Haiti during our steeds presidency people their number of people mentioned to me already at that point recognizing that the Elites in Haiti had a great deal of antipathy towards re Steed that the the final factor that might put them over the edge and lead to a coup d'etat would be if our Steed were to raise the minimum wage as it turned out that's there were certainly a number of other factors involved but that's very nearly what happened. He did announce very soon before the coup d'état that he was planning to raise the minimum wage. So certainly the business interest in Haiti opposed our state very clearly and I think that then they were also linked to American business interests there. I buy my understanding of American business interests in Haiti is that probably the largest sector is the assembly industry. So again, they would be very closely affected by a raise in the minimum wage per the your other question about the actions taken by the United States government. I think that since the coup d'etat. In fact, we've had we've been sending very mixed signals to Haiti while we have not recognized the present government as a the legitimate governing Authority in Haiti. We particularly I can point to the refugee policy against which has been interdicting Haitians since the coup d'etat as a factor which many many Haitians and certainly it's recognized that the military authorities have pointed to as a diminishment of the serious threat posed to the Haitian populace by these leaders. So the view on the street in Haiti was Surely the United States government doesn't doesn't really believe that these violent situate that the violent situation in truth exists here because they're just sending these refugees back and we can and we continue to do so despite the president bar go (00:32:58) now I was suggested in the in the story that we ran at the beginning of the program that one of the central tenets of the Clinton Administration policy was in terms of repatriating would be Haitian refugees that go on back. We're going to get democracy set up and there's no need to come here. Yeah. Was there any legitimacy to that? (00:33:21) I think if our steeds terma is a good example that certainly there is during his term the refugee flow from Haiti lessened significantly since the coup d'etat. There has been some 40,000 Haitians who have attempted to leave the country and seek Refugee status. So they're certainly I think You can have a tremendous impact if there is peace in Haiti if their security in Haiti people people very much want to stay there if they can have security. (00:33:51) What what would be a reasonable policy at this point in the interim as the sanctions are applied to Haiti as pressure continues to try to get are stayed back in power in terms of from your Viewpoint as a human rights attorney. What do you think the United States should be doing in terms of refugees allow them to come in again or continue with the repatriation program and essentially a not allowing them to leave (00:34:16) right? I think that our treatment of Haiti and Haitian refugees is distinct from that of refugees from any other country in the world. We presently have our boats in Haitian Waters and international waters stopping refugees from leaving the country and not only doing that but taking these people who are who are fleeing repression in Haiti from rural areas where frequently they have embarked on their Journeys. And we're bringing them in Coast Guard boats to Port-au-Prince to The Harbor at the harbor. They are turned over to the Haitian authorities in many cases. Just the very people that they are fleeing with a manifest giving every one of their names and also then they are they must go through a receiving situation in which all of them are fingerprinted and interviewed by the authorities. So I think our present policy is has created danger in some situations where there wasn't any certainly under international law which we have ratified in the United States and is our national law. These refugees should have the opportunity to have a hearing and present their case for a well-founded fear of persecution in in Haiti (00:35:36) other callers on the line with a question. Hello. Yes. Well, thank you for your guests as a person who Served in the US military just prior to the time that the US helped to put the dreaded to value a regime into power and who's gonna let American specialist ever since I'd like to make two points. First of all the CIA planting of the stories about the necklacing and collateral and collaborative magazines, like the new Republic the CIA release of the so-called profile attributing impersonal and mental instability to the priest is part of an ongoing effort begun in the Bush Administration to defame and destabilize any government appearing in Haiti or any well alcinous letters clutter American hemisphere which proposes a truly Democratic Grassroots threats to the the Elites in this country and in Latin America and They complained that hasn't been brought out that the Haitian military use essentially a military narcotraffic Auntie Mafia, which is collaborating with a similar Mafia in the adjoining country and they will do anything to maintain their power which amounts to millions and millions and tens of millions of dollars per year of drug trafficking into this country and around the world. I would much prefer the so-called instable police to these narcotraffic aunties and thank you. Okay. Thank you for your comments. First of all, you think that all the criticism of aristide is Cia the result of CIA (00:37:28) influence. I don't have the documentation to demonstrate that that would be the case. (00:37:34) You're just you're Sands from visiting the country. You said before that. In fact, there was some popular They're inspired violence against our steeds opponents. Correct? Yes, so there was some violence now whether he was what his situation is. You don't know right and any in evidence that in fact, the Haitian military is made up essentially of drug trafficking Crooks or are these sort of semi legitimate military people? (00:38:09) Again, I don't have the hard evidence to demonstrate that this is the case. However, it is very very early widely understood and I certainly have heard anecdotal evidence. Even my most recent trip evidence of someone very closely linked to Michelle Francois who is very actively involved in drug drug trafficking. So I think that there certainly may well be truth to the to those allegations of narco-trafficking on behalf of the Haitian (00:38:39) military State another question from listener. Hello. Hello. My question is simply this what has can you respond? What's the role what has been the role of the American sugar interests in in Haiti because don't doesn't doesn't the Florida sugar crop be harvested by the the sugarcane be harvested by people import from hey, Every year for at very very low wages. Okay, (00:39:15) sir. Yes. I actually I don't have the statistics on our import levels from Haiti. I actually am very familiar. However with the situation in the Dominican Republic Hades neighbor and who uses Haitian labor on the Dominican government plantations to to cut their sugar cane in very very difficult conditions and certainly in recent years. There's been many allegations of forced labor on those plantations and also of child labor on those plantations, so I know that the the Haitian sugar industry is far smaller than the Dominican and I'm afraid I can't give you the exact statistics on its import (00:39:58) Our Guest today is Sarah to cost who is with the Minnesota advocates for human rights. She has made several trips to Haiti in recent years. And in fact just came back on Monday from her latest visit and was there when all the trouble broke out done in Haiti and has been good enough. Come by to share her perceptions and thoughts. And what's happening down there. Let's go back to the phones and their callers on the line. Hello. Yes, go ahead sir. Yes. I've been to Haiti to observe things here. And we also have a connection with Haitian Evangelical people down there and have had for a number of years and we've supported as a Haitian people as much as we possibly could because of the what I saw down there when I was there a few years back and we find that the food is a tremendous problem down there to have sufficient. Sometimes the people are so impoverished. They can't even feed their children one meal a day. And so we've tried to do what we could for that but now we're seeing a policy that's totally different from the one in Somalia. They had food down there that they couldn't distribute but now we're we're taking away the food from these people and the opportunity to run anything that isn't the common people and do anything they could to provide food there. Very often Grouse there where it's impossible to grow food and it seems to be a reversal of the universal policy to feed the children at the UN had prompted. So you're opposed to the UN sanctions. I gathered at least that kind of sanction. You can't even get the food into the country to feed these poor little children that are just running around there just as which hardly able to eat them one meal a day my understanding though food can get in just that it once it gets there. If you don't have any oil to operate the transit system, then you can't get it out to the people. Right and what I hear from my sources, I see what this Saturday know much more about (00:42:05) that. Yes. My understanding is that the Embargo has specifically excluded those needs of Aid organizations. So that fuel should be available to Aid organizations and foodstuffs should also be available to Aid organizations. So I believe that they should not be Ed by the Embargo and their ability to get food out to the Haitian public who needs it. (00:42:31) Why is it that the the military and the police would allow the eight agencies to continue operating in a situation like that why if they needed the oil to feel why wouldn't they just take it if they wanted the food? Why wouldn't they just take (00:42:46) it? I think that's that's the certainly will be a risk. Hopefully the the strength of the Embargo may may be such that those that the military forces can be dissuaded from from Simply walking off with with the fuel in the food that that's needed by the aid organizations. I think certainly controlling that is going to be a risk and the the military authorities in the past however have shown or in keeping with this actually have shown that they are more than willing to crush popular organizations and have sir. I directed much of their attention to the church the Catholic church and Protestant churches in Haiti. So I certainly agree with with the collars concern for for those people who may be affected by the Embargo. The hope is that if the Embargo is is effective that it will pass very quickly and that the broader effect of this continuous repression of organizations, including those item innovations that can provide food and have done so on a long-term basis that ultimately over the long term they will be able to reach the population more effectively. (00:44:02) Let's take another caller with a question. Hello. Hello. We're calling from st. Paul and we have a question for your collar concerning the return of RC to Haiti on the 30th and whether or not she believes he's at risk for assassination and her opinion as to what the US would Do if that were to happen Okay, let's assume he goes back on or about October 30th the military and the police give in and say okay you can come in as we said you could and will even go further will abide by the agreement. We will resign will step aside. Is there is there a danger that aristide would be assassinated? (00:44:48) There's a very clear danger that he will be assassinated many people who are members of the military and certainly the attache is again, very closely linked to the military have sworn to assassinate already studied whenever his return maybe in Haiti so that will I think continue to be a danger if he's allowed to return for the duration of his presidency prior to his ever becoming president. In fact, there were several attempts on his life by the authorities in Haiti. So this is something that's been ongoing. So I think that that will continue to be a Again, the steps that I mentioned before if Sid Ross resigns if Francois resigns if our steeds government is allowed to even go to their offices leave their homes and and actually begin operating. I think that again the society will come nearer and nearer to to the actual restoration of his of his government at this point. I think things in Haiti are such that that his return certainly would pose a risk to his to his (00:45:52) life. Hmm. And if he the other half the question being if he did return if he was assassinated, what would be in that instance a proper us response to that development, (00:46:03) right? I think. Most likely that the the proper us response would be the respect of the of Haitian law and respect for the appropriate manner of succession under Haitian law. So that would I would be the would be the tag that I think would be most would be the best for our for our government to (00:46:26) take rather than sending in the troops. (00:46:30) Yeah. I really I don't feel comfortable speculating on on (00:46:33) that. Let me ask you this as a senator or a congressman Oberstar who's been in Haiti several times a couple of times suggested that if we are going to be involved here. We really do need to send some troops down there root out the bad guys and be done with it. Otherwise nothing really is going to be accomplished assuming that we did that is that is that conceivable? Is it possible that you are there so many opponents to democracy in Haiti that you'd be there forever. Is it a fairly small group of people that that you could Target Howard? What's the practicality forgetting about the wisdom of such a move the practicality of such an (00:47:13) effort? Right? I think there are I think there are practical measures that can be taken. The population of Haiti is nearly 7 million people. The military forces have a membership. I believe it's about 10,000 members about 1500 of whom are police the sublevels of the chef dissection and the ata's Shay's become sort of more numerous. So their their numbers are exponential there, but I think that if the United States as was agreed to and the governor's Island Accord were two were to come in and perhaps conduct retraining as was agreed to to try to professionalize the military to gain control of the military and again, most most importantly if the our state government is actually allowed to be in place and to function. I think that that there certainly are steps that can be taken to move. Back towards democracy in Haiti. (00:48:10) I think we've got time for one more question and let's go back to the phones. Hello. Good afternoon. My name is Dave. I'm calling from Sioux Falls. Yes, sir. I am retired Navy. I've been in Port-au-Prince several times and I understand that the problems in Haiti are bad, but it is just another third world country that if you take all of the third world countries, they all got some type of problem like this and I really think that we've lost sight of helping in a non-governmental way the problem the problem that we have is we go in there with force and the first thing you stir up problems with the idea that we're trying to dictate to them how they should live and it's unfortunate that we can't just go in as people, you know and do things and and the gentleman was talking about the religious group. There are a lot of other groups that they can go in and provide Aid provide training and provide them assistance that isn't tied to a government of any sort including the UN. Okay, we've got to run here sir. But Sarah you were obviously down there are doing pretty much the same thing a monitoring human rights and so on. It's a reception pretty good to people like Americans fundamentally in Haiti. Do they look to the United States for help here? What's what is the relationship bottom Linden? (00:49:38) I think that certainly the human rights organizations. With whom I was working were very happy to have Americans interested in what was going on in Haiti willing to work on their behalf supporting the end of repression and a violence in Haiti. I think they were very happy for that kind of support the problems in Haiti are very severe. I don't know that that in our hemisphere right now that That there are too many other countries under which where populations are living under this kind of repression. So, I think that that he does Merit our attention not only in the monitoring of the human rights situation, but as the caller mentioned certainly in supporting the popular organizations,