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SPEAKER: It's been almost two months now since Bill Clinton was sworn in as president of the United States. Seemed to be a lot of enthusiasm and optimism when the new administration took over, the sense that the nation was starting over, in a way. But there have been some rocky moments in the early going-- Zoe Baird, gays in the military, shifting budget numbers.

So we thought it would be interesting to get some perspective on these first days of the Clinton administration and take a look at some of the many challenges facing the president. And who better to get some perspective on these issues from than former Vice President Walter Mondale, our resident statesman here in Minnesota. Well, Mr. Mondale, first of all, great to have you back here on midday.

WALTER MONDALE: Thank you. Delighted to be here.

SPEAKER: Has President Clinton used up all that early goodwill that usually is afforded new administrations?

WALTER MONDALE: I don't think so. This is not to say there aren't tough days ahead, because obviously, that is right in front of our faces. And if you look at the surveys, if you look at the way the Congress is dealing with them, if you look at public comments around the country, I think you would have to say that he's gotten off to a pretty good start and that the public is giving him the benefit of the doubt. He got off to a fairly rocky first couple of days, but he seems to have found a ground again.

And for me, I'm fascinated by the energy he's putting into this. Every day, there's one or two events somewhere. Today, it was in Baltimore talking about defense conversion. He's up at Rutgers. He's out in the West Coast.

He's showing this amazing stamina and ability of his to keep the dialogue going and control the agenda of what's being discussed. He seems to be very well received on the Hill. So I would say it's easy to be overly confident because they're very rough seas ahead. But up until now, you'd have to give them pretty good grades.

SPEAKER: You think there's a danger that he's going so hard here early on that he's going to burn out?

WALTER MONDALE: I worry about that. I worry about overexposure. I worry about exhaustion and fatigue. He's doing 18-hour days here, and he's doing them right through the weekends. I mean, he has very little time. Is he taking off? I know he's strong. I know he's very bright. But I guess I'd like to see him pace himself. We all have limits. I'd like to see him pace himself a little bit.

SPEAKER: Now, you are a vice president. What's your reading early on here as to how he's using Al Gore?

WALTER MONDALE: I think that's working out very well. And I've talked to Gore over the last couple of days, and I've talked with people in the White House who are working with him. That seems to be going very well. The main thing is they seem to each other, and they trust each other. He's in the loop. He's getting the information, all the information, so he knows what's going on. I don't see anything but good news there as far as I can tell.

SPEAKER: How about the dynamic of the president's wife, Hillary? In a way, she's the vice president, too, or assistant president.

WALTER MONDALE: Well, this is not entirely new. We've had Eleanor Roosevelt. We've had other very strong first ladies who have gotten into broad policy and intended to be a strong forces in a president's administration. Rosalynn Carter was a strong person. There have been others.

But Hillary is-- first of all, she's very, very bright. I believe she was number one in her law school at Yale. I've been with her several times over the years, and she's awesome. She's got an incredible mind, and she's got a lot of drive. And she doesn't intend to be pushed around. And she sees. I think she has a modern definition of the stature and status of women in American life. And she's not going to be a potted flower somewhere in the corner.

And so, as we see, she's taking on not the easy ones, but the toughest ones. I mean, this health care issue is a dreadfully complex, emotional, explosive, expensive issue. There she is right in the center of it. So there's no question that. To get to your-- in a long winded way to your-- answer to your question-- there's still plenty for vice president to do.

SPEAKER: Plenty of work for everybody.

WALTER MONDALE: Yeah, yeah, no shortage at all.

SPEAKER: Our guest is former Vice President Walter Mondale, who's been good enough to come in and chat with us a little bit today. We have some callers on the line with questions. Hello? You're on Minnesota Public Radio.

CALLER: Good afternoon. I was wondering why in Reagan's administration, he didn't institute some sort of health care issues so that everybody long before now could have affordable insurance.

WALTER MONDALE: Could you tell me where you're calling from? Interesting.

CALLER: Chester.

WALTER MONDALE: Where?

CALLER: Rochester.

WALTER MONDALE: Oh, yeah.

CALLER: And I'll let you answer that.

WALTER MONDALE: Yeah. Well, it wasn't just Reagan for-- during most presidents, administrations, very little has been done on trying to solve the national health crisis. Some have tried harder than others. But the bottom line is that we have a disaster on our hands. We pay far more for health care than do the people of any other nation. And it's inflating at 12%/15% double, triple inflation every year.

I believe I'm right. We're the only Western nation that does not have a health system that covers all of its citizens. We have some 30 or 40 million Americans who have no health coverage at all. And we have millions more who have health coverage. That's hardly adequate. And we have millions of Americans who are straining every month to pay the insurance costs, which continue to rise dramatically.

Somebody told me the other day that over the last few years, actually, American car producers have become more efficient than our Japanese competitors. For example, many of the Ford models are produced with less cost than the Japanese competing models. But the cost of health care in America is so great that by the time you crank in the cost, may be $8,900 a car. It reflects the health insurance costs of the employees who build it.

By the time you crank that in, we are once again behind the Japanese because of the increased cost of health care. And of course, finally, you cannot-- there's no way that we'll ever get this budget under control unless we get some control of health care costs. I believe there's no way that we're really going to get effective welfare reform, so that people who can work will work unless we can do something about health care. Because I think a lot of Americans who shouldn't be on welfare remain on welfare because it's the only way they can get health care.

SPEAKER: Let's take another caller. Hello? You're on the air.

CALLER: Hi. Thanks for this opportunity to talk to the vice president.

WALTER MONDALE: Where are you from? Where are you calling from?

CALLER: I'm calling from Southeast Minneapolis.

WALTER MONDALE: I've heard of it.

CALLER: [LAUGHS]

You've been around here a little bit.

WALTER MONDALE: Right.

CALLER: I just returned from Mexico, and I had the opportunity to talk to a lot of vacationing Canadians and also some Mexican nationals. And we got into talking about the free trade agreement quite a bit. And I was just wondering what your observation was, what you can predict for our relations with both of our neighbors.

It seems to me that the opinions I got from a lot of just average, both Canadians and Mexicans down there, was that, well, if this goes through the way it's in place now, it's just going to be one more excuse for corporations to exploit Mexican workers and perhaps won't be of any benefit to Canada or the US. And I'm just wondering what your observations were and also for what we can predict for the next four years for our relations with Canada and Mexico. I'll hang up and listen.

WALTER MONDALE: Yeah. Once a president commits our country to do something with another nation and the national prestige of our nation becomes committed, things usually happen. And President Bush signed the so-called NAFTA agreement, the trade agreement with Mexico, North American trade agreement. And while President Clinton says he wants some changes, he's basically, I believe, said that the essence of that agreement will go forward. He's concerned about environmental reform. He's concerned about some other matters that he's discussed.

So I believe it will go forward. And what we need to do is to make certain that it goes forward on a ground where it's not a tool for exploitation, not a tool for avoiding essential community and personal responsibilities of these business leaders-- easier said than done. But over the long run, if it works right, it will expand our markets. It should have some beneficial impact. If Mexico could end up with a healthy economy and an honest political system, I believe every American will benefit.

SPEAKER: Another caller is on the line with a question for Mr. Mondale. Hello?

CALLER: Yes, Vice President Mondale from Winona, Minnesota.

WALTER MONDALE: Yeah.

CALLER: Several questions. One is do you have any suggestions for the Clinton administration for reducing the debt? And number two would be as if the Democratic Congress and the Democratic White House are unable to control the debt, do you think the Republicans will be able to capitalize on the upcoming elections? And then finally is, who do you think will be the front-runner in the DFL to run for Dave Durenberger seat? And would you support that person?

SPEAKER: Well, let's see. Let's take them in inverse order there.

CALLER: OK.

SPEAKER: Because we should talk a little bit about Congress and the debt and all of that. First of all, local state politics. Any idea who's going to end up as the DFL Senate candidate?

WALTER MONDALE: Don't have the slightest idea. And I think it's way too early. There are all kinds of candidates being mentioned or people wanting to be mentioned. So I'll just pass that. I don't know.

SPEAKER: Let me ask you this, though, about that race. There has been a lot of speculation in the press that the candidate for the party will obviously have to be a woman. Do you think that's a reasonable criteria for the party to use?

WALTER MONDALE: I think if we took the position that biology must govern who the next candidate is, I would say no. But there's something here that has to be dealt with. But we've never had a woman represent Minnesota in the United States Senate. We've been around as a state for a long time. There are only, what? Five or six elected United States senators who are women out of a body with 100 members.

And a lot of people believe that we have to catch up a little bit here. And the Democrats may or may not unanimously, but I think there's been at least a tentative consensus that they would like to have a woman candidate. And I hope that works out. Now, having said that, I think what really counts is to have a senator, someone who wins and who's right on these issues that affect women and others, and stands for a system of social justice and all the rest. So I guess that's my answer. Not a very good one, but it's the best I can--

SPEAKER: [LAUGHS] Under the budget now. I mean, it is quite a sight to see the Congressional Democrats trying to outbid each other there, bidding up those spending cuts. Now, that's unusual.

WALTER MONDALE: In my opinion, one of the healthiest things to happen in this country the last few years is that the American people have finally seen that this deficit is going to kill us, that it's gotten so outsized. It's now so expensive. It's such a drain on American credit and capital. It is undermining America's capacity to be competitive in the world, and it's a lousy, dirty trick to play on our kids because they're going to have to pay-- their living costs-- they're going to have to pay our debts.

So I think Americans-- a few years ago, I tried to get them him interested in this. And for the time being, they thought there was an easy answer out. Now, Americans know that. So President Clinton has come up with his proposal to reduce the debt, I think, by about 500 and some billion over, what? Four or five years. I don't have those numbers in my head all that accurately. And the Congress has said that's not enough.

So the other day, there was an agreement to which the president acceded to add another $50 or $60 billion in real cuts over the next four or five years. Now, the Republicans are coming along, and they say this isn't enough. We want some more. Well, I say, let's listen carefully to them. Let's put those cuts in place that we can put in place. We may not agree with all of them, but this is one place I think the American people would like to have partisanship set aside. Let's try to come up with a real fundamental answer.

I think you have to give Clinton credit. This is the first president in 12 years to come up with a serious, substantial, painful, real attempt to help reduce the deficit. But I don't think we should say, OK, that's it. You either vote yes or no. I think we ought to-- let's listen to everybody. If you've got some new ideas, let's see what we can do and come up with something that really works here.

SPEAKER: Now to this point, all the Congress has done is essentially passed resolutions, kind of targets.

WALTER MONDALE: Right.

SPEAKER: Do you think when push comes to shove, they're going to be able and willing to take the hard votes to actually make the cuts? I mean, it's one thing to say, gee, I think we'll nip a little here, and we can nip a little there. But when push comes to shove, are they going to be able to actually make those cuts?

WALTER MONDALE: I think this goes back to my first answer. If I'm right that the American people want these cuts made, then it's in their political interest to go beyond the general to the specific. I talked to a friend of mine in the Senate from South Dakota the other day, who had just spent two weeks roaming around his state, and he said, boy, they've got the message. They want these cuts made.

And he said, I was pressed at every meeting. The very few criticisms about any of the cuts that have been bruited about, even though many people in the room there were going to have to suffer a little bit. So he said, I think that the public wants this done. So I think I would get back to the question that was asked here a few minutes ago.

I think that if the Democrats fail to deliver on their efforts to start getting this deficit under control, I think they're going to be hurt politically. Whether the Republicans will benefit, I don't know. In other words, they had government for 12 years, and the deficit just got worse. What I worry about more is that it will feed a sense of despair and national impotence that we just-- even though we're a great nation, somehow when there's heavy lifting involved, we can't find it within ourselves to get that job done.

I think that would be the most dangerous because that's when demagogues start. That's when scapegoats start. That's when we start gnashing our teeth and cursing the darkness. This country with all of its strength and power, surely we possess the capacity as a free people to do what we know has to be done. And if there's some heavy lifting, if there's some denial for a while, if we have to defer pleasure a little bit, we know what that's like in our families, in our communities. We got to do it as a nation.

SPEAKER: Our guest is former vice president, Walter Mondale. Let's take another call. Hi, you're on Minnesota Public Radio.

CALLER: Hello, Mr. Mondale, I'm calling from Saint Paul. Our President Clinton is fond of saying that we should never return to the '80s and that Reaganism-- what we need, really, is a total reversal of Reaganism. And I see the '80s as a time where President Reagan created 19 million jobs. We had seven years of sustained economic growth, and we had low inflation and low interest rates.

Now, you can talk about the deficit. But obviously, the deficit, in my opinion, is caused by spending. And if you look at the cause of the deficit in the '80s, it's primarily because of spending on social programs, which I think it's a little disingenuous to blame on the Republicans. And I just wonder, is our president right in saying that we shouldn't return to lower taxes and less government? That's my question.

WALTER MONDALE: Well, let's just take a look at what happened. When I left public office with the total approval of the American people, I might add, the national debt was something like $800 billion. And it had been accumulated since George Washington had been sworn into office. And the annual carrying cost of that debt was something like $58 billion. That's what we left in January of 1981.

Today, the annual carrying costs on that debt is something like $230 billion somewhere. I could be off a little bit, but it's now almost the largest function in the federal government. We pay more just to carry this debt than all the social spending that seems to bother you. It doesn't build a house. It doesn't educate a kid. It doesn't feed a hungry child. It doesn't build a road. It just pays debt. And that's what we're doing. The national debt has gone up to about--

SPEAKER: Total of--

WALTER MONDALE: About $4 trillion in 12 years. It's going to go up another $300 billion this year. Now, something's wrong. I don't think those are glory days in American history. This was a debt binge that was deliberate, and it was based on fiction that somehow you could cut revenue by $300 billion. You could increase defense spending by $300 billion, and you'd fill that hole by magic.

Well, it never occurred. And we're worse off than ever before. And there's plenty of blame to go on both sides. I'm not trying to make a partisan point here because those budget resolutions in the early '80s passed with the support of the Congress, too. What I said earlier, I really believe. I think the American people are beyond this blame debating point that you're trying to make, and they're now confronting reality, this enormous, monstrous, growing, debilitating national debt that has to be dealt with. That's changed.

Now, the American people in '92, above all, voted for change. They did not want more of the same. Some 80% of the American people said they were very unhappy with the way things were. And that's what this new administration is trying to do now. You can argue about the change, what kind of change it is. But I think the American people want something different.

SPEAKER: Let's take another caller. Hi, you're on the air.

CALLER: Hi, Mr. Vice President. I'm calling from Medina today.

WALTER MONDALE: Yeah.

CALLER: I've been a strong Democratic supporter, and I'm very excited to have Clinton in the White House. And incidentally, I voted for you, sir.

WALTER MONDALE: Oh, you're the one.

CALLER: I'm the one.

WALTER MONDALE: Oh, yeah.

CALLER: My concern is this, that with-- Clinton has made so many promises to so many different people with different agendas, that I'm afraid that no matter what he accomplishes in the first four years, he's going to fall short of their expectations. I'm wondering what your opinion is on this. Has he bitten off more than he can chew in your opinion? Thank you.

WALTER MONDALE: That's a very good question, and I'll be honest, I worry about it myself. We've got this remarkable system in America, where we elect governors to be president. We did it with Carter. We did it with Roosevelt. We did it with Reagan. We did it with-- now we're doing it with Clinton. And that's been true many, many times, Wilson.

And one of the things that happens here is that we have these often gifted new national leaders who are suddenly the president of the United States, but have not dealt with any of the major difficulties of a presidency before. A governor doesn't deal with national defense, doesn't deal with national security problems, doesn't deal with foreign policy, doesn't deal with national budget problems, doesn't deal with the Federal Reserve Board, and so on.

I watched this with Carter. I saw it was with the previous presidents under whom I served, who did this. And they come into office full of all kinds of hopes and aspirations and beliefs, honest beliefs, that they can do all of these things and get them done. And the good news there is that we need that enthusiasm, that hope, that optimism.

But also, they're going to find out that a lot of times this stuff is tougher than they thought it would be. And they're going to find out that the world does not behave very well. And I'm sure that he was inaugurated. He didn't plan to see the World Trade Center blow up. But we've got a major problem now, maybe on our hands for the first time with international terrorists starting to play their tricks in American soil.

I'm sure that the severe difficulties in Russia now over the survival of a democracy while they knew about it, I think the problems are deeper and more profound than they hoped would be the case. So what I'm saying is, and I think that's what your question was about, there is a sobering and maturing period that a new president goes through. And I think Americans will say, well, if the person is being honest and full of hope and maybe expressing aspirations that are difficult to achieve, maybe we need a little of that.

On the other hand, I think we're going to have to be understanding of any of them when so much of what they want to do becomes surrounded and limited by tough times and reality. I mean, I saw Carter go through that, and it's a very tough thing to go through.

SPEAKER: Do you think it's fair for the press? This is something that the media likes to do a lot for the media to say, well, you promised this and this. And here you are two months or two years or four years into your administration, and you didn't do it. You didn't do this. You didn't do that, or you change gears entirely.

WALTER MONDALE: Yeah. I think that's fair. I think you live with your words. We promise our kids certain things, and sometimes we can't deliver. We'll say, you're not going to the movie because you didn't do your homework. But, dad, you promised I'd go to the movie. I said, well, yeah, but you haven't done your part.

In all parts of life, we find that we make promises we sometimes can't keep. The key to this is as long as the process is honest, as long as people are trying, change is part of life. But the essential element is honesty, genuineness. And that's the key to public acceptance and public trust. Without that, if it's just manipulation and cynical promises and so on, nobody can live with that.

SPEAKER: Let's take another caller with a question for former vice president, Walter Mondale. Hi, you're on the air.

CALLER: Hi. Mr. Mondale.

WALTER MONDALE: Mhm.

CALLER: I'm very glad you're here today. I'm calling from Maplewood. Although I was born and raised in South Dakota of a very politically active family. And I spent most of my young adulthood and childhood working in the offices of George McGovern and Jim Abourezk and working for Walter Mondale. And I'm hearing these days that a lot of people think that Clinton-type Democrat is the new breed. And this breed of Democrat is so different than the old guard, as it were. And I don't believe that's true. What do you think about that?

WALTER MONDALE: I love that question. Well, when I hear about this new Democratic administration wanting to build roads and bridges and fix up airports and educate kids and health care, it sounds somewhat familiar to me. Well, having said that, I think there is something about Clinton and his thrust that is responsive to the times that have changed. In other words, when I-- I never expect somebody who gets elected as a Democrat to do what Humphrey did or to do what Roosevelt did.

That's silly. It's now 1993, and we have to deal with the problems and the changes in the world and the issues as we now face them. What should be the same, it seems to me, however, is a sense of justice, a sense of fairness, a sense of decency, an attempt to try to make the system work so that people have a better chance for a decent life in America. The use of power around the world for human rights and so on, that's what ought to be the same. But the details, the fund and programs and so on, will change.

And I think that's what's different about President Clinton. He's assembled a team of brilliant people. Everybody's talked about health care, but he's actually, knock on wood, may actually do something about it. That takes a lot of energy and a lot of brains and a lot of courage because there's going to be a lot of heavy lifting here. But if we could get a decent system of health care in this country that retains the wonders of the current health system and yet brings that within the reach of all Americans, that would be a wonderful thing.

He's made some promises about changing welfare. Well, I hope he can do it. I think we'd all be better off if we could get a more hopeful system, where generation after generation doesn't just end up on welfare. There's a lot of things that I believe demonstrates a sensitivity and a commitment and an energy that goes under the rubric of change here. How successful will be? It's too early to say, but you can't deny, but that he's trying.

SPEAKER: Another caller is on the line with a question for Mr. Mondale. Hi, you're on Minnesota Public Radio.

CALLER: Hello, I'm calling from Southern Minnesota. I first of all, want to say how profoundly I respect Vice President Mondale and how grateful I am that people such as himself and Senator Humphrey and President Carter were our leaders. You represent all that is decent and good in our political process. So thank you for your service.

WALTER MONDALE: Where are you calling from?

CALLER: Southern Minnesota.

WALTER MONDALE: Where? Give me a name.

CALLER: Albert Lea.

WALTER MONDALE: Oh yeah. I grew up in Elmore.

CALLER: I know that.

WALTER MONDALE: Just out of town there.

CALLER: My question is this. In President Carter's book outlining his presidency, the chapter in which he deals with the Iranian hostage crisis, there is a photograph in that book of you sitting in the Oval Office in the hours before President Reagan was sworn in, and the expression on your face seems to convey a great deal of exhaustion and frustration and perhaps defeat. Would you be so kind as to talk about your feelings as those hours of your administration were coming to a close, how you felt that day upon leaving?

SPEAKER: Great question.

WALTER MONDALE: You've just described it. I mean, that was a horrible moment in my life. We had been defeated. We were leaving office the next morning. We had these American officials yet being held hostage in Iran by a manipulative and mean person, Khomeini. This was Carter's last day.

The one thing we wanted to do was to get those hostages out of there. We thought we were close. We had been working for months with all the details so that they could come out of there. We wanted to close that chapter before we left, and we wanted to know that these wonderful Americans who had been living through this torture could come home.

And I don't know when that picture was taken, but it was probably-- and then mind you, we had to be ready in all dressed and shaved in about 2 hours to be up the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue to celebrate the election of the new president. So it was not my greatest day. But all during this time that-- we had been up all night trying to get this done.

Khomeini just kept manipulating us and diddling us. I was physically exhausted. I was emotionally dispirited. I felt so sorry for the president. I guess my face showed it.

SPEAKER: Hmm. Well, you said it all.

WALTER MONDALE: Yeah.

SPEAKER: Let's take another caller. Hi, your question?

CALLER: Yes. I would like to come back to this whole question of the deficit, and it seems to me that Mr. Clinton rightly talked about two deficits and Robert Reich and other people, the budget deficit that we're all familiar with and the investment deficit in our people. It seems to me that there's been quite a few cuts over the past 10 or 12 years in programs that help people and invest in our people.

And Clinton, I think, rightly made the point that we can balance our budget with one of the lowest tax rates in the industrialized world and make all these spending cuts in food and clothing and shelter programs. But if we don't invest in our people, then we're not going to be able to compete with Germany and Japan. We're not going to have a healthy economy, and our country is going to go to pot.

What can we do about this investment deficit, which seems to have been forgotten? And a related question, will campaign finance reform be necessary so that these cuts do not disproportionately affect people who don't have big checkbooks to give to campaigns?

WALTER MONDALE: I'm very grateful to you for that question because I think it's at the heart of our difficulties, and it shows why being president right now is so tough. Because if he could just deal with what you're talking about-- improving education, improving the efficiency of the economy, dealing with health care, making certain that American Research and Development levels are up so that we could outcompete our competitors and bring the wealth in our own country, that sort of thing-- what a wonderful, wonderful time it would be.

But regrettably, he has to both deal with this yawning, massive inherited deficit and at the same time try to get some momentum back in those things that would help improve the economic standards and the competitiveness of the American economy. And so he's trying to-- and some other things-- try to get the system changed so that people will be better off if they work than if they stay on welfare, if they've got that option, and so on.

We have starved education. We have starved the support for our highways and our bridges. And those are the programs that really took the cuts in the '80s. I mean that as defense spending rose, as the deficits increased, the pressure was always on to cut and cut and cut those things that made a difference in the lives of vulnerable Americans and average Americans.

Actually, while the-- so that Clinton is trying to do both at this time. And I think your question is a very good one. And I'm pleased to see that there seems to be a substantial amount of American support for that.

SPEAKER: What about the campaign finance reform issue?

WALTER MONDALE: Oh, I'm all for campaign. I think campaign finance reform-- I'm not a great admirer of Perot's, but I hope he'll keep the heat on there because we need to reform the way in which campaigns are financed, the openness and honesty of the American public process. We need to, I think, put ceilings on how much is spent in these campaigns. We need to make it possible for honest people to go into public life and remain honest. And we need to disabuse the system of the influence of big money on the decisions, which, of course, is what your question is about.

And finally, Americans, in order to trust the system, have to see that it's being run by the American voters and not by big money. So I think there's all kinds of reasons why we need deep and profound campaign finance reform and lobbying reform. And I pray that the president will push those programs hard.

SPEAKER: Another caller is on the line with a question for Mr. Mondale. Hi.

MAHEEN SAJOI: Hello. Good afternoon, Vice President Mondale.

WALTER MONDALE: Good afternoon.

MAHEEN SAJOI: My name is Maheen Sajoi. I'm calling from Saint Cloud.

WALTER MONDALE: Right.

MAHEEN SAJOI: I'm an Iranian. I came here before the revolution in Iran, and I know that you were vice president during that revolution.

WALTER MONDALE: Mhm.

MAHEEN SATOI: Now, as you know, there has been a lot of changes in Iran. My question is with the present administration, with the Clinton administration, I do not really know how much knowledge he has about Iran and about the politics of the Iranian government. And I also recently noticed that he has appointed some people in his administration that is dealing with Middle East.

And I have seen that there's a lot of different publicity about Iranian government. I do not know what would be President Clinton's policy regarding Iranian government, in particular. And what do you think he would have in his agenda?

WALTER MONDALE: That's very difficult for me to answer. I haven't talked to him about it. There has not been an awful lot of public statements by the new administration about their view of Iran. I can speculate a little bit about-- I must say that they've appointed and will be appointing-- I know about this-- people dealing with the Middle East who've had a lot of experience there.

And I think they will be as sure-footed as you can be in this very dangerous and complex area. The problem in trying to get along with Iran right now is that while the current leadership has pulled away from some of the extremes of the Khomeini regime and while people like Rafsanjani are trying to have a more moderate leadership in Iran-- and that has to be encouraged-- they nevertheless seem to be trying to pursue support for more radical Islamic behavior there and around the world.

One of my dreams before I check out here is to see an Iran that plays a positive and powerful role, not only in that region, but in the world, because Iran has such strength resources. Her people are so gifted. But they're going through. They're trying to work out in their own minds the-- oh, the pain and the heartache of a tragic history and all the rest that goes with it. In other words, what I'm trying to say in a clumsy way here is I believe that Iran is still a very nettled issue for any Western government yet, and I hope for change, but I don't think it's there yet.

SPEAKER: Let's take another question. Hi, you're on Minnesota Public Radio.

CALLER: Good afternoon. I'm calling from Brainerd, and I was listening to a lot of the roundtables that Mr. Clinton had prior to inauguration. And there were a lot of people, business leaders, and individuals who called in recommending a significant federal gas tax increase anywhere from $0.50 to $0.75 a gallon, with those monies being earmarked for infrastructure, if you will, roads, bridges, et cetera, and putting people to work.

I understand that there is a proposal for an energy tax, which is across the board and certainly will affect the price of gas at the pump. But I look at the price of gas at the pump as being a tax that people opt to pay, not ought to but opt to. You can do more efficient driving. You can curtail driving. You can buy more efficient autos. And I guess I'd just like to hear why, Mr. Mondale, feels like a tax-- if he does indeed feel like a tax like this, why is it so difficult to get something like this passed?

WALTER MONDALE: I don't know because I agree with you. The gas tax generates a lot of money, and an individual can reduce his gas tax by his behavior. You can buy a more gas-efficient car. You can drive less, and so on. And there's that. And you can also shape a gas tax so that there's some relief for low-income Americans-- recycled back to them in some way.

But we proposed a gas tax. You remember, we were trying to deal with the energy crisis. We proposed a gas tax that would build up over the years to $0.50, I think. We couldn't get anybody to support it. We had four or five members of the House, and I think half of them were sorry. They said they were for it.

And there have been others that have proposed it. And for some reason, it can never get started. One reason is that in the less populated states, in the Mountain States, and so on, where they drive these vast differences, they hate that gas tax because they think it picks on them. And each of those states has two senators. It's not based on population.

There are certain industries that depend very heavily on gas and fuel for transportation, and so on. And they hate it because they say you're picking on us. So it may be a judgment was made. They just couldn't get it done. And so the BTU tax would be easier to pass. I don't know. But I agree with the thrust of your question. But no president has been able to get it done.

SPEAKER: Another caller is on the line. Hi, your question for Vice President Mondale.

CALLER: Hello, Mr. Mondale. Thank you for being on the program today.

WALTER MONDALE: Thank you.

CALLER: I'm a union employee with Northwest Airlines, and I was wondering if you'd be interested in talking about some of the issues here for a little bit.

WALTER MONDALE: Go ahead.

CALLER: OK, I was wondering, since you're a member of the board of directors, what would you think about equal representation on a board of 15 directors consisting of five company, five neutral, and five union members? And I also have another question after that.

WALTER MONDALE: Why don't you give me the other question? Because I think I'm going to give you the same answer.

CALLER: OK. This one concerns Mr. Clinton. What can he do for the airlines, or if he's done anything?

WALTER MONDALE: OK, well, on the first one, I'm a member of the board. There are negotiations underway at this point. I'm not involved in those negotiations. Anything I would say on that, I think, would be counterproductive. So I don't think I should respond to it.

SPEAKER: Do you think the administration should do something?

WALTER MONDALE: No, I'm now going to the Clinton question.

SPEAKER: Right, try to prop up the--

WALTER MONDALE: Yeah.

SPEAKER: Airlines, sir.

WALTER MONDALE: Clinton has said, I gather your-- are you a pilot?

SPEAKER: Yeah, I think he's--

WALTER MONDALE: OK. He has talked three or four times in the campaign. And since then, he was out at Boeing, and so on, wanting to do something to deal with the severe difficulties of the airline industry. All of the equity accumulated by the airline industry since its beginning has been wiped out in the last couple of years. There's no question. There's a crisis here.

Several of the airlines are in chapter 11, bankruptcy, and several of them have disappeared. And that process is not stopped yet, I fear. It's very difficult to know what might be done to make a substantial difference. There have been suggestions about waiving these excise taxes that are tacked on to the tickets that consumers pay.

There's quite a lot of revenue raised for the federal government from these excise taxes that appear on the-- that are part of buying a ticket. Some hope for some relief on that to make air transportation more attractive. There's been some suggestions about the domestic air like Boeing, and so on-- the aircraft industry-- about trying to make the rules of competition with the Euro Airbus fairer if that's seen as an unfair situation. And there has been a lot of public money poured into the European Airbus industry.

I'm stammering here because I don't really-- at this point, I haven't been able to come up with something that I think would make a tremendous difference that could be as public policy. And I'm worried if they're not careful, that they could do more harm than good.

SPEAKER: Mr. Mondale, hopefully we get a couple of calls in. But I do want to ask you before you go here about the situation in Russia, which seems to be that constitutional crisis involving Yeltsin and the parliament seems to be getting worse, virtually minute by minute. What's going to happen over there?

WALTER MONDALE: I'm very worried about it. The economy is in dreadful shape. They have horrible inflation. Corruption knows no bounds, from what I hear. You have a nation with very little experience and commitment to a Democratic process. You have Mr. Yeltsin, who's trying to make it work but with a parliament.

One thing that people must remember, this parliament was elected while there was still a Soviet Union, and it was elected at a time when it was thought not to be very important, when another body, the Supreme Soviet, was really running the country. So you had a lot of people running for the parliament who were second raters, who were old communist apparatchiks, and second-rate pals.

And you've got this body of over 1,000 people elected under different circumstances, at different time, unwilling to let go and allow some reforms and changes to be made. And it's nearing high noon over there now. There's a big stand-down as we talk today. I see Clinton starting to do something on this. I hope the West will do more to try to be of help to Yeltsin, to try to make his chances more hopeful, to show respect for him.

That's about all we can do at this time. I'm not a great admirer of Nixon's, but he said the other day something I agree. If this Russian effort for democracy collapses and if it's replaced by some authoritarian or totalitarian system, that goes back to the old days where they pedal these arms all over the world, where they developed nuclear forces and use it to try to threaten and leverage their political systems.

If they get back into the Middle East and start giving arms to people like Assad and Saddam Hussein and so on, we're not going to that at all. And so I think we need-- after all, we spent $150 billion each year for 40 years to get ready to kill them. It seems to me a little bit now from the Western world, not us alone, to try to give them a little bit better chance to make this change toward a democracy and toward an economy that works better or works effectively at least. It seems to me that that's an effort that, first of all, is way overdue. We've allowed two or three years to slip on us here.

But secondly, I think that we're not going to the alternative, and I think we should try as best we can. A lot of limits here, but we do the best we can to give these people that want democracy a chance to survive.

SPEAKER: If Yeltsin is bounced, do you think there's any chance that the so-called democracy movement in Russia would live on anyway?

WALTER MONDALE: I hear and read from experts over there that there is a chance that there could be an alternative set of leadership, but I don't know who it would be. They argue that the people, whatever they think of Yeltsin and the parliament, they don't want to go back to communism. It was so bad. It was such a failure that they've had enough of it. I hope that's the case, but I would hate to risk it.

SPEAKER: Right. Mr. Mondale, we have, unfortunately, run out of time. Hours fly by quickly here. Thanks so much for coming in.

WALTER MONDALE: Thank you.

SPEAKER: Our guest today, former vice president, Walter Mondale.