Transcripts

text | pdf |

---

KERRI MILLER: I'm Kerri Miller. This is MPR News. Now, a discussion about why women athletes are getting jerked around on pay and why the fans have something to do with that. If you're questioning my jerked-around description, here's a few numbers for context. Out of the 100 highest paid athletes in the world last year, only one, Serena Williams, is a woman.

Golden Warriors star Steph Curry will make over $200 million in the next five years. You know what the top star in the WNBA will make? She's lucky if she squeezes out $100,000. Right now, you're thinking, well, that's about ticket sales and sponsors and advertisers and skill. And yes, it's also about plain old, deeply embedded in equity. More on that in a minute.

As our guests join us, I'd like to hear from you. As a fan of women's sports-- basketball, soccer, tennis, and more-- do you think the women's teams and leagues get the kind of promotion and support that they need and deserve? And if you're the parent of a daughter who dreams about being a professional athlete, what do you tell her about this pay inequity?

So as a fan of women's sports, I want to know if you think the teams and the women's leagues get the kind of promotion and support they deserve. And if you're the parent of a daughter who dreams about being a professional athlete, what do you say? What do you think about this pay inequity?

Here's the number-- 651-227-6000, 800-242-2828. I'm on Twitter with you @kerri, K-E-R-R-I, MPR. Mary Jo Kane is with us. She's the director of the Tucker Center at the University of Minnesota, with me in the studio. Really good to see you again. Welcome.

MARY JO KANE: Welcome to you, too, and thank you for inviting me.

KERRI MILLER: Gigi Marvin is with us. She's a three-time Olympic forward for the US Women's National Hockey Team. And she joins us today from Boston. Gigi, welcome. Really good to have you on the show. Thank you.

GIGI MARVIN: Hi. Yeah, thanks for having me.

KERRI MILLER: Mary Jo, my impression after looking at the salary numbers across sports is that no matter the professional sport, no matter the professional athlete, women always make less, and they make substantially less. Are there any examples to the contrary of that?

MARY JO KANE: Well, the only example that would even be close would be women's professional tennis, and that's only because people like Billie Jean King early on said we should be paid for pretty much the same as what men make, especially in the majors. But other than that, in all women's professional leagues, they do make, as you pointed out in your intro, not just less, but substantially less by millions and millions of dollars on average.

KERRI MILLER: So, Gigi, when you hear the argument, I think we will. Well, this is about ticket sales, and this is about sponsorship, and it's about skill. The men are just more interesting to watch. What's the answer to that?

GIGI MARVIN: Yeah. Obviously, I don't agree with it. But I think the answer is just simply-- you put your money where your mouth is-- if you provide for a boy. So I play for USA Hockey. And so what is provided for the men and for a young boy is not even close. We have so many numbers that have been laid out. But to for the development of a girl, it's not even close yet.

The membership fee is the exact same, or the sales for different things. So you're charging the same to be a member of USA Hockey, yet what's offered and provided is completely different or around marketing. And so the tough thing is, yeah, you know what? Women don't have a league. Women don't really have much fan support. I've heard it a lot with women's college basketball at the same time as-- you need to start somewhere.

And if we have the ability and these massive machines like the NHL and the NBA and some remarkable-- I mean, they have a huge stretch, a worldwide stretch. Why not take just a fraction of it and use that towards showcasing these amazing women athletes because that-- my teammates are-- their strength, their speed, their stamina, they're not these casual, random athletes who don't dedicate every day of their life to their craft. They're phenomenal.

And they do that. And they're not just sitting on your couch and-- everyone hears about beer league and just playing every now and then. No, these women literally dedicate their lives. And you touched on the women's basketball salaries like the same thing. Those athletes are outstanding, especially in Minnesota. I mean, the Lynx are remarkable.

And so I think if we have-- I think it just starts with the willingness. That's what we face within our USA Hockey, is just the straight up willingness to even start to go there. There's just such a refusal to even think about-- how can we market? How can we promote. And how can we develop these young athletes? Because they just didn't even choose to do that.

KERRI MILLER: Mary Jo, I think Gigi used the right word here-- the machine-- and the machine cranks up very early in development and promotion for young boy athletes. It simply doesn't happen for young women.

MARY JO KANE: Well, but it's happening increasingly as a result of being two generations removed from Title IX. And I would like to place this just a little bit in an historical perspective. Speaking of Title IX, which was passed in 1972, I think that when-- and I totally understand why people want to do a direct comparison of women's and men's sports. I get that.

But I think it's really important to understand, at least from my point of view, is that this is a false equivalency in this sense. Women's sports didn't really get off the ground until even, again, two generations removed from Title IX. And so I think that you're trying to-- it's not an apples-to-apples comparison. It's really an apples-to-oranges comparison because for example, comparing the WNBA to the NBA is like comparing a tech startup company to Apple.

KERRI MILLER: I want to say that I'm really glad you mentioned this. The WNBA League was created in 1997, right?

MARY JO KANE: Yeah.

KERRI MILLER: So what you're saying is really important. The development of these leagues is far behind, which doesn't mean that, well, then they have to wait for their turn for investment, right?

MARY JO KANE: No, it doesn't mean that at all. But for example, a sports economist named Dave Berri who's published a lot in Forbes Magazine, made the point that the NBA-- speaking of these two comparisons-- is in its 72nd season. And the WNBA last year averaged about 8,000 fans per game. The NBA did not reach that 8,000 attendance average mark until its 26th season.

KERRI MILLER: And everybody waited and invested for the NBA.

MARY JO KANE: Exactly. And I just think that if you look at the whole issue of Title IX, we've just moved in two generations. I mean, it's been lightning quick. We've gone from young girl-- I'm a pre-Title IX tomboy. We've gone from young girls like me hoping that there is a team, to young girls today, hoping that they make the team. That doesn't mean that there aren't gender inequities that we shouldn't fight for, but I think it's always important to place this in a broader context.

KERRI MILLER: Call here from Rebecca in Saint Paul. Rebecca, you've got the WNBA on your mind?

REBECCA: Yes. And a lot of what I see, especially with the Lynx, is just not the media coverage. There are just phenomenal athletes on the Minnesota Lynx. I mean, how many Olympians are on there? And they just don't get the media coverage. So, for example, a couple of weeks ago when Sylvia Fowles got the league record for rebounds, next morning, MPR. It was literally 30 seconds. And then it was a lead in to an interview with a sports writer about a whole session about why the Minnesota Twins are losing. We have a phenomenal team.

KERRI MILLER: I got you.

REBECCA: And even the media that's aware that there is not the same coverage is also perpetuating that not the same coverage.

KERRI MILLER: Well said, Rebecca. Gigi, that must be-- I mean, you must experience this as well, right? Big media focus on men's hockey. What's your perspective on this, on how important the media coverage ends up being?

GIGI MARVIN: Yeah, we found that. I mean, the media coverage is huge because obviously, it's about awareness and increasing that. That's the first step. But thankfully, we live in a time now that there's social media. And so I think a lot of players have done a great job of trying to build through, and we've done our own work in that.

But I agree. I mean, just to give a small snapshot between USA Hockey, the women's hockey, like the Olympic team, the best women in the country, they don't even have a sales and marketing people directed towards that. Whereas if you look at just the 17 and 18 a.k.a. the development teams for the men's side, they have seven staff members just for the 17 and 18 team alone.

And I mean, that puts the discrepancy. We don't even have our own Twitter page. We don't have our own-- the US Women's Olympic Team or the US Women's National Team. And so simple things like that.

KERRI MILLER: Yeah.

GIGI MARVIN: We do get that all the time, obviously every four years come the Olympics. For two weeks, pretty much everyone wants to talk about it. But we don't live in just the two weeks of the Olympics. We train year round, which a.k.a. also we work year round. And so it's more about-- how do we take what's already provided? And I understand that.

How do we take what's provided and use that toward and dedicate those same resources, or at least even give us one? Why not start now with one, two, and then build ourselves up to seven, just like what is given to not even the men's Olympic team. But simply, their 17-year-old boys and 18-year-old boys.

KERRI MILLER: Tara says on Twitter-- I was an athlete through college, swim, and hockey, and I'm from the beginning a Minnesota Lynx WNBA fan, who's been yelling for years about abysmal salaries of WNBA players. Thank you for tackling the issue of women athletes getting rooked on financial compensation and promotion. And that is what we're talking about.

When you look at the numbers, it is undeniable. There is a deep inequity s when it comes to compensation for women in sports. We want to know why. Why don't the leagues invest? Why don't fans invest? I think fans have to take this on for ourselves as well. Where's all the sponsorship? What does it mean? And as the parents perhaps of a daughter who dreams about being a professional athlete, what do you say about this pay inequity? As a fan, do you think that the women's teams and the leagues get the kind of support and the promotion that they need and deserve?

802-242-2828, wherever you are in the region, 651-227-6000, and on Twitter, @kerrimpr. To Sara in Minneapolis. Hi, Sara. Thanks so much for waiting.

SARA: Hi.

KERRI MILLER: Good to have you on the line. What do you want to say?

SARA: I think that you guys are really nailing it on the head. I think it's been really impressive-- the partnership, the wings have with the Timberwolves. And now the new Women's Hockey League has the Whitecaps, has with the Wild. But I think it just isn't enough. I think that people are afraid. And they don't think that the support for women's sports is there. But I play on the Minnesota's professional women's football team, which now everyone's going to be like, Minnesota has a professional women's football?

KERRI MILLER: You just nailed it. Just what I was thinking, I didn't know that. So tell me what the story is here. When do you play? Where do you play?

SARA: Our home games are played at Simley High School in Inver Grove Heights, and our season is April through July. And we're part of a bigger league called the Women's Football Alliance that has, I think, around 60 teams throughout the country.

KERRI MILLER: Way to go. Wow.

SARA: Yeah. It's amazing. It's an amazing opportunity. But each league is self-funded. And for us, it's hard to find sponsors who are willing to put money behind a women's sport because they don't think that the attendance is there, or the interest is there. But our team has one of the biggest fan bases in the league. I mean, it's still hard for us to get going. We dream of a sponsorship with the Vikings, but it's just not there.

KERRI MILLER: Sara, you've raised something, and I'm really glad you called to talk about sponsorshipspeak. What a circular problem this is, Mary Jo, because as Sara just said, the sponsors won't come in until they see the fans, but the fans aren't going to come in unless there's more awareness and promotion. And some of that is about sponsorship. What do you do to break that?

MARY JO KANE: Well, it is a vicious cycle. It also is the $64,000 question in terms of the chicken and the egg. And to go back to-- I mean, I think that the corporate sponsorship won't come in until they see more media coverage. And media coverage is going to say, well, people aren't interested. And that's reflected in the fact that there's no corporate sponsorship.

So let's talk a little bit about the media-- what we know in terms of data. And I'm a scholar, so I like to rely on data. We know that about 40% of all sports participants in this country are female. And we also know that in terms of Division I scholarship athletes, 43% of all scholarship athletes are female. Now, that's an extraordinary development, given that prior to Title IX, you didn't have teams, let alone athletic scholarships.

KERRI MILLER: Right.

MARY JO KANE: But what we also know is what the latest studies show is that overall, across the vast sports media landscape, women only get about 2% to 4% of all media coverage. So the media actually are underreporting women's interests. And I would argue that those kinds of numbers indicate that there is an enormous interest in women's sports, both in terms of attendance and participation and viewership. But when the media won't acknowledge that and under-reports what's actually happening, then you have a situation where corporate sponsors stay away.

KERRI MILLER: Gigi, when you talk with your fellow athletes and your fellow team members on the national hockey team, I'd really like inside view of what you say about the media coverage and how frustrating this is, because I think you said a minute ago, sure, everybody's interested two weeks before the Olympics, but then nothing.

GIGI MARVIN: Yeah, it's challenging. But I mean, I understand where we're at. I think what your guest was mentioning earlier is we're not comparing to this 70-some years of existence that the NHL has had. They started with six teams, and we're starting with five teams in the National Women's Hockey League. There's seven teams in the Canadian Women's Hockey League. But you got to start somewhere.

But for us, as far as marketing, I think it's amazing when you can do those partnerships. Perfect example for Minnesota is when the Minnesota Whitecaps, which is a women's professional team, is partnered with the Minnesota Wild. And the wild is constantly tweeting or allowing the women's team to use their rink. And then therefore, we'll have more access to KARE 11 news or the variety of different-- there's tons of news outlets in Minnesota.

And so I mean, that's huge. Just thinking about-- same example with a startup company versus goo, goo, goo, goo, you're already attracting. And you already have a massive following, then you come under your wing. Same with the Wild. They have a phenomenal following. And just by simply partnering with that, it's important to find other businesses and really wrap their heads around, hey, these women are phenomenal athletes, and they simply just need exposure, and putting journalists or media members upon instead of just simply going every four years, which, to be honest, everyone has commented.

Everyone remembers an Olympic moment because they're so powerful and just-- I mean, I'm an athlete, and I still have these remarkable memories of watching as a fan when I was little. And to think that we captured that in only two weeks every two years, man, we could be capturing those powerful moments of perseverance, dedication, what? women, or just even throughout the entire calendar year, instead of just February or August.

And I think Serena Williams is a phenomenal job with that as far as even sharing a story about-- now we have women who are pregnant and competing or have given birth and still coming back and playing at the highest level. Those are stories that need to be shared and communicated in addition to simply raising the awareness among women athletes and women's sports, in general.

KERRI MILLER: Mary Jo, I hear what Gigi is also saying about the men's leagues investing in the idea of this, and also investing in the exposure of this. I was reading something that the NBA commissioner told the New York Times. He said for years, the NBA has under-- this is, quote, "underestimated the marketing investment that it takes to launch a new league." In other words, if the NBA had been as interested in the WNBA as they should have been, or as they were in the NBA, I mean, what could have happened around the promotion of the WNBA? He's basically admitting that we didn't understand what it would take, and we didn't make the investment that is needed. And we still aren't.

MARY JO KANE: Yeah. And I think that that's an absolutely critical point. And I want to go back in terms of some sort of historical perspective here. I think one of the things that we should ask ourselves is, again, given all these data and given the enormous growth that we see in women's sports since Title IX, and also the interest in women's sports, when people are given an opportunity to watch and support women's sports, like in the Olympics every four years, the question then becomes, well, so what's going on? Why is it that, for example, the NBA is acting against its own financial interests? That's the logical-- OK, so here's my analysis.

KERRI MILLER: Yeah, what's your theory on that?

MARY JO KANE: So if you have an institution like sports that for decades and decades and decades has been monopolized by a majority group, in this case, men, and especially given an institution that is so identified with maleness and masculinity, I mean, Title IX didn't come to be because men on the 19th hole in golf 45 years ago said, oh, my god, what an oversight. We aren't giving half the resources to women. We got to do something about this.

KERRI MILLER: Yeah.

MARY JO KANE: So what has happened then is that on the one hand, you do have many men who support women's sports, especially the dads with daughters demographics. So I never wanted to miss that.

KERRI MILLER: I'm seeing that on Twitter.

MARY JO KANE: However, having said that, there is still enormous resistance to women's equality because what has happened is that what was once a monopoly in one of the most powerful, important institutions in this culture, has been that all-male sacred space has been penetrated, if you will, since Title IX, by women. And so at the same time that you have lots of support for women going forward and supported by men, like Adam Silver and the NBA--

KERRI MILLER: But there's also resistance.

MARY JO KANE: --you also have resistance because of what it means for women to be equal in that realm.

KERRI MILLER: On Twitter, my daughter's goal is to have sports help her pay for college. She's a basketball player. As a first-year teacher, she would make more or the same as a professional female basketball player in the USA. Overseas leagues pay better. I want to say about golf. Lydia Ko, youngest player to ever be ranked number one of either gender in 2015, she made less money than the male golfer who was ranked 25th in the world. If that is an inequity, I don't know what is.

MARY JO KANE: Let me give you one more. A'ja Wilson, who was the number one draft pick in the WNBA this last year and plays for the Las Vegas Aces, what her salary is this year is $54,000, and she's the number one pick in the WNBA. Now, that said, as somebody like me again, who's in the mid-60s, but we have a WNBA, and in its 22nd season. And it has had more corporate sponsorship, more media coverage, more fan attendance than ever in its history. It's on the one hand, on the other.

KERRI MILLER: Monica in Saint Paul. Hey, Monica. Thanks so much for waiting. What are you thinking about here?

MONICA: I'm thinking about the fact that I love-- I'm not a sports person one way or another, but I am a feminist. And my husband is-- I really admire the fact that he will go to as many women's games as men's. He will see women's soccer the same way he sees men's soccer or women's hockey, and come home and talk about it to our kids and talk about the athleticism and invite buddies. You want to go to a hockey game? And then they say, oh, wait, a women's hockey game? And he says yeah.

KERRI MILLER: Don't tell Gigi that. Uh-oh. Right. Monica, I think that's progress. Yeah. Right in the home, what your kids are hearing, I think that really matters. I appreciate the call. Let me go to Mackenzie in Saint Paul. Hi, Mackenzie. Your observation on this.

MACKENZIE: I am a rabid Lynx fan-- introduced to the team by my friend Rachel. And when we're talking about fans paying money and supporting the team, when the Lynx were in the finals, I couldn't find Lynx merchandise anywhere in the Twin Cities. I went to every store I could think of to support the team and wear the white.

And finally went to a Dick's Sporting Goods. And I could find stuff on Alabama's Crimson Tide. What do I care about that when I'm a Lynx fan and nobody here will carry their merchandise? How am I supposed to support my team if nobody gives me the opportunity to do that?

KERRI MILLER: Mary Jo, is that an issue?

MARY JO KANE: Oh, I hear that all the time.

KERRI MILLER: Really?

MARY JO KANE: I absolutely hear that all the time. And again, it's a situation where-- I keep going back to Title IX. We were told for decades and decades that women weren't interested in sports, and even if they played, they wouldn't be any good. Well, guess what happened? We built them ballparks and playing fields all over this country, and they have come in unprecedented numbers.

And I just would hope that the marketers and the controllers, the gatekeepers, if you will, of women's sports, get it and make those kinds of opportunities available for women and men, because I should say that just like in men's sports, where it's about 60% to 40% men to women fans, in the women's sports, it's flipped. It's 60% women and 40% men. But there's a lot of men who follow women's sports, and men and women are desperate for that kind of merchandise.

KERRI MILLER: Gigi, is that an issue for the women's national hockey team other than the two weeks before the Olympics?

GIGI MARVIN: Absolutely. We don't have any US women's hockey. We don't have a US women's national team store, where you can buy, for example-- how you walk in the wild locker room at Xcel Energy, and you can buy a ton of different apparel, a ton of different designs. You can get things like a keychain, even. I mean, that's something we talked about so much and so frequently because our friends and family want to represent the USA on their front, and then their daughter or their sister or their cousin or whatever on their back end.

So what we've had to do because there's nothing provided as far as at-home games sold for us women specifically, we the player, each four years before-- my three Olympics I've been to, we are the ones that have designed our own shirts in order to even use. And we use it to fundraise, to help cover costs for our families to get to these Olympic games.

And so it's something where kids-- especially, I coach, and I run a hockey school for young girls and boys. I mean, when they saw the T-shirts that we made this year, I mean, they ate it up. They wanted it, just like this viewer went around the Twin Cities looking for stuff. And I'm like, it's there. I mean, you see so many women were in Minnesota Vikings shirts. They don't really even know football.

And then all of a sudden, you get this same market, like you said, the 60% women, 40% men. I mean, there's a desire for it and especially for those who are passionate about the sport, but those who just come alongside it, just like many examples of, say, women going along to just football games and not necessarily enjoying it, but loving the entertainment value of it.

And we have that also. We have people who've come to our games and a little bit begrudgingly or with one of their friends. And then they just love the entertainment. And they love the speed. And they fall in love, but they don't have anything to wear proudly to support our program or our team. And that's the highest level, much less the other leagues.

KERRI MILLER: Gigi, I wish you well with the school and the team. And really a pleasure to have you on the show today. Thank you. Thanks for the insight, from your perspective as an athlete.

GIGI MARVIN: Yes, thanks so much for having me.

KERRI MILLER: Gigi Marvin, three-time Olympic forward for the US women's national hockey team. Joel says I'm the father of a girl, seven years old. Seven years ago, I decided to watch the WNBA as my primary sport. How do you tell a girl you can do anything and continue watching only men's sports? Men and women need to watch where their money goes and what it says. Feeling you'd agree with that, Mary Jo, on the 30 seconds I have left.

MARY JO KANE: I would say hear, Joel. But we do support women's sports. And I'm just asking all of those who resist to come along and go women's sports and go Gophers.

KERRI MILLER: Laurel says, hey, Kerri, what if MPR decided to take on this issue in a serious way? If we really care about women in sports, why not pledge to make 43% of airtime about sports dedicated to women? If media is a problem, why not be part of the solution?