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SPEAKER 1: Celebrate the season with folksy carols, swinging jazz, and holiday corrals available at the Public Radio music source where good things come in small packages, prms.org.

STEVEN JOHN: From Minnesota Public Radio, I'm Steven John. A state investigation finds that tens of thousands of gallons of jet fuel have leaked at the Minneapolis Saint Paul International Airport over the past three years. The Star Tribune examined violation notices issued by the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency. The notices indicate the fuel has contaminated soil beneath the airport and drained through storm sewers into the Minnesota River. The Metropolitan airports commission disputes the report.

The fatal shooting of six hunters in Wisconsin last weekend has some Minnesota DNR officials worried about the image of the sport of hunting. DNR law enforcement officers say there are sometimes conflicts between hunters and landowners, but disagreements are typically handled peacefully. Craig Backer is the regional enforcement supervisor in Grand Rapids. Backer says he was shocked by the shootings in Wisconsin.

CRAIG BACKER: This was a horrific event. And while it certainly occurred over the opening weekend of deer season, it's not about hunting, and hunting activities, and hunting as part of a family activity. Somebody out there in the woods lost it, and I mean lost it big time.

STEVEN JOHN: DNR officials say most conflicts during deer hunting season involve trespassing, but incidents are usually resolved quickly between hunters and landowners. DNR conservation officers or local Sheriff's departments are sometimes called in to mediate. Search crews have found the remains of a missing 23-year-old Duluth man.

Authorities say volunteers found the remains of Alexander Bobb yesterday in the Whiteface area of rural Saint Louis County. Bob was reported missing on August 26. Foul play is not suspected. Skies should be partly cloudy for Minnesota today. Highs in the mid 20s Northwest to mainly the low seconds elsewhere. That's news from Minnesota Public Radio.

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MIKE EDGERLY: Good afternoon and welcome back to Midday. I'm Mike Edgerly in this week for Gary Eichten. This hour, we'll hear Voices of Minnesota conversations with two of Minnesota's most prominent Catholics. Father Larry Snyder is the new head of Catholic Charities USA, where he'll play a leading role as a congressional lobbyist.

He's the former head of Catholic Charities Saint Paul and Minneapolis. Sister Andrea Lee is President of College of Saint Catherine in Saint Paul, the country's largest Catholic college for women. Saint Catherine's is observing its 100th anniversary this year. Here's Minnesota Public Radio's Dan Olson.

DAN OLSON: Father Larry Snyder isn't convinced that a rising economic tide lifts the boats of poor people.

FATHER LARRY SNYDER: I would like for someone to show me where that actually happens, because in my experience, it doesn't happen at all. And when you say the economy improving, and I know it is, and I think that's great, but when you look at jobs, what kind of jobs are there.

DAN OLSON: Sister Andrea Lee says, it's high time for Minnesotans to decide what kind of future they want.

SISTER ANDREA LEE: If they want a first rate state where people want to live, where there's a strong economic life, where it is an attractive place to live and work, then they have to have-- we have to have a strong higher education system.

DAN OLSON: College of Saint Catherine president Sister Andrea Lee and Catholic Charities USA executive director Father Larry Snyder this hour on Voices of Minnesota.

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Catholic Charities is one of the country's largest and most respected private social service organizations. Its agencies serve society's most troubled people, children and adults who are poor, homeless, addicted or mentally ill. The new head of Catholic Charities USA is Father Larry Snyder. He led the Catholic Charities Saint Paul and Minneapolis office for 13 years.

The Twin Cities Catholic Charities Office is the area's largest private social service provider. It's one of the country's most successful local Catholic Charities. Fundraising has more than doubled the past five years. Its budget is $39 million, with nearly 500 employees. Catholic Charities Saint Paul and Minneapolis operates shelters, food shelves, counseling services, and a school, among many other programs.

Father Snyder begins his new job at Catholic Charities USA in February. The organization's members are 1,400 local agencies and institutions. They help more than 7 million people a year. Father Snyder's responsibilities in his new job include lobbying on behalf of the nation's poor people. He'll try to influence members of Congress who set this country's social policy. I spoke with 54-year-old Father Larry Snyder at his office in downtown Minneapolis, recently.

The number of poor people in this country continues to increase. Is that to be expected in a country where the population is growing, or are the number of people in poverty increasing faster than population growth based on what you see?

FATHER LARRY SNYDER: I can't statistically answer the last piece. I'm not sure of that if in fact, the number of people in poverty is increasing faster than population growth. But the fact of the matter is it is increasing. And again, we as a faith based organization operate from certain moral dictums, moral mandates. And our moral teaching tells us that poverty at any level is not acceptable.

And we have a long history of what we call Catholic social teaching that I think actually most people could buy into. It's things-- first of all, the most basic premise is that all people are worthy of dignity and respect. We say because they're made in the image and likeness of God. But even if you're not in our tradition, I think most people would say all people are worthy of dignity and respect.

And if that's in fact, the case, then if anyone is in poverty, we need to be asking ourselves, why. Are there personal reasons do this? Does this person not have the skills that they need? And especially, we find that in generational poverty that no matter how much money we put in programs for those folks until we give them the skills and part of that is addressing the spiritual motivational part, until we get those things going, they're not going to leave poverty.

DAN OLSON: One demographer says the degree of income disparity in this country between haves and have-nots is at levels not seen since the 1920s. What should we make of that?

FATHER LARRY SNYDER: We have to look at the priorities of our country. And I know people sometimes get very concerned about the amount of money that is spent on welfare. And yet I wonder, if people really know how much is spent on welfare, because, again, my figure is probably not going to be the most current, but I think it's, you know, under 5% of our federal budget is spent on that.

DAN OLSON: Folks have stepped forward with a couple of specific ideas about how to address the poverty issue, for one, and suggesting, among other things, that, well, the minimum wage needs to be raised, gosh, $10 an hour. That would lift some people out of poverty. Business comes back and says, whoa, that'll stunt business. It'll have the exact opposite effect of what is trying to be done. What do you think? You're going to be in the halls of Congress pretty soon.

FATHER LARRY SNYDER: Well, I think without a doubt, we have to address minimum wage. And the interesting thing there for me is if you're looking at statistics, is to look at how if somebody's making minimum wage right now with two children can't even make enough money to get out of federal poverty guidelines.

So we should at least have minimum wage at the level where someone who is doing their best and who is playing by all the rules and working is going to make enough money to keep them and their children out of poverty level. The other piece is that we don't address how the minimum wage guidelines have not been adjusted for the cost of living for years. And why are we leaving that figure behind. I don't think we should.

DAN OLSON: So if you could sit down at around table like this in your brand new Washington Catholic Charities USA Office, and actually, I guess you'd be going to their offices, Congressman Tom DeLay and Congressman Dennis Hastert in the House and then the Senate Leadership and say, OK, gentlemen, let's sit down here and let's write Father Larry Snyder's dream public policy for social action in this country. What would be some elements?

FATHER LARRY SNYDER: Well, again, I think it's the elements of trying to make sure that everybody has a fair chance. And obviously, I would go personally from a moral motivation and representing Catholic social teaching and representing all the Catholic Charities agencies across the country.

However, I think that there is another case to be made, and it's the case that it just makes good business. It is a good investment. And that's really. I think that the approach that I would take, because it's hard to argue with that. You can dismiss morals. You can't dismiss hard facts, that it makes economic sense to invest in people because the return is so much greater.

DAN OLSON: We hear that and I think a lot of people believe that. It's difficult to see it. We see the crime issue, for example, putting a record number of people behind bars currently in this country. And by golly, the crime rate has gone down. That appears to work as opposed to a scenario which might follow along the lines of what you're suggesting. Wait a minute, put more of that money up front in early childhood and take care of it there. I mean, is it hard for Americans to see what you're describing when they see a kind of results crime goes down when we put people behind bars?

FATHER LARRY SNYDER: Well, let me say this. I think lots of folks are taking a lot of credit for crime. The crime rate going down. I'm not sure that I believe that. It's because we put more people behind bars. I think it's because more people are working. And as far as I can see, it's when the unemployment rate goes down, the crime rate goes down. And so that's where I'd like to attribute that.

DAN OLSON: A lot of these folks, almost all of them will get out of prison, for example, and come home to neighborhoods. They'll be looking for jobs. I don't know specifically about what Catholic Charities can do to serve folks like that. But I mean, in terms of the country, are we on a good footing, in your opinion, to address this issue of almost all of these people coming out from behind bars?

FATHER LARRY SNYDER: Well, it goes again to the philosophical argument about punishment versus rehabilitation. And for a long time, we had a very definite commitment to rehabilitation in our prisons. And I was chaplain at Lino Lakes prison for about three years. And at the time, when the emphasis was on rehabilitation.

And it was amazing to see the motivation of the guys when they would come to church, and what they would talk about, and what they were doing, and all these things that had not been a value for them when they were out on the streets, things like education, things like learning skills, not a value to them. They'd learned through their incarceration that they needed to get these skills. And there was a strong motivation to be rehabilitated.

I get concerned that the prisons now are so overcrowded that they cannot offer prisoners that same opportunity that they had when I was chaplain at Lino Lakes. One of the most difficult things for people leaving prison, of course, is to make a good entry back into society. And I think the rate of people going back into prison is probably directly related to if they have the opportunity to have housing and support to keep from going back to their old ways.

I know at Catholic Charities, the Archbishop several years ago asked us to address this issue because he would get letters from prisoners saying, I'm going out, I want to make a new start. I've mended my ways, but there's no place. I don't even have a place to stay. And I got to tell you, we do see a lot of them in our shelters.

But what we did is we knew that if we tried to open a facility for ex-offenders, there wouldn't be a neighborhood in this community that would allow us to do that. And of course, I always think as long as the facility is well-managed, neighbors aren't going to have anything to worry about. But it's that there may have been some that were not well-managed. And so we all pay the price for that.

So what we have done is we have several housing facilities throughout the Twin Cities where we have 80 single rooms and we've dedicated, for example, five of those rooms to ex-offenders who are coming out. And then we also have then a support system in place. And that has been successful for us. But again, I think it's because we have been able to hide it. And again, but it gives those people an address. It gives them support. They get a job and they're back on their feet.

DAN OLSON: Back to macroeconomic issues for a moment. I mean, the assertion for all of us for so long has been, look, a rising tide lifts all boats. If we're just patient and hang on with the growing economy, so many of these problems are going to be taken care of because young people will see job opportunities. It'll restore their hope. Older people-- older adults will get their jobs back and so on and so forth. Is that a model that you see unfolding?

FATHER LARRY SNYDER: Well, I would like for someone to show me where that actually happens, because in my experience, it doesn't happen at all. And when you say the economy improving, and I know it is and I think that's great. But when you look at jobs, what kind of jobs are there?

It's not the jobs that were there 10 years ago that a person could really fulfill the American dream. Minimum wage jobs, and there are a lot more of them now, are not going to be the kind of economic peace that people can really put their lives together, and plan, and have families, and again, I think, buy into the American dream.

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DAN OLSON: Father, Larry Snyder, he's the new head of Catholic Charities USA. He leaves his job as head of Catholic Charities Saint Paul and Minneapolis in February, a post he has held for 13 years. You're listening to Voices of Minnesota on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Dan Olsen.

Catholic Charities and other social service agencies face a changing landscape. Among the changes are a large number of Americans in prison, most of whom will get out and need housing and jobs. Many will return to neighborhoods where there's resistance to programs which serve the poor, including former inmates. Here's more of the conversation with Father Larry Snyder.

I love these little pithy quotes that were able to pull out of context when de Tocqueville visited America and he was so impressed and he said, America is a great nation because it is a good nation. And then he added, when America ceases to be a good nation, it will no longer be a great nation. I may have that about right. I don't know. Is there anything inside of that appeals to you?

FATHER LARRY SNYDER: Well, there is. And I think up to this point, I have been kind of addressing more the problems that we face as Human Services organizations. But I'm glad you brought this up, because actually, there are a lot of other factors here that really go to the heart of what is best about Americans. I look at volunteerism. Last year, there were over 12,000 people who volunteered in Catholic Charities programs.

And these are folks from every spectrum in our community. That's an incredible thing. And why are they doing it? Well, they're doing it because they do want to be a part of the solution. I look at my peers across the country when we have meetings and they'll look at, you know, say Saint Paul, Minneapolis, you've got it made, you've got it made. And in many ways, we do.

The level of philanthropy here is phenomenal. And it is an amazing thing that if the rest of the country emulated, they'd all be in much better shape. But at Catholic Charities, one of the incredible things about my job is I do get to see the most destitute, but then I also get to see the most caring, the most compassionate. And I kind of have this image of Catholic Charities as being this table, which we make sure everybody in this community is at the table.

DAN OLSON: What are the dangers inherent in not addressing the problems you've discussed over a period of time and not addressing poverty and not addressing the hopes of youth and so on?

FATHER LARRY SNYDER: Well, we will all pay the price eventually. I mean, we can either, you know, pay the piper today with, again, programs that are preventive in nature or we can pay the price on the other hand, which is usually in the corrections system for not investing in preventive programs.

DAN OLSON: I guess where a lot of Americans find themselves, perhaps some Americans find themselves, is, look, what should I do. What's the greatest value, giving the money or giving the time?

FATHER LARRY SNYDER: Well, I would always say, first of all, I'd rather have your time because it is in that exchange of people actually meeting people who do need their help, that that's where transformation can happen. It's not in sending money as much as, you know, our people up in our development staff are probably going to kill me for saying that.

But as important as financial assistance is for us. Boy, if we can get people to meet face to face, to put a face on people who are in poverty, put a face on children who are at risk, then that's where transformation and a conversion of heart can happen. And then the financial piece will follow.

DAN OLSON: I think a follow up is that some Americans think, you know, I go out there and I volunteer or I write the check for the donation to Catholic Charities or to whomever. And it's a handout. It doesn't work. It isn't as adequate. It isn't as effective as I'd like it to be. That's frustrating to me, the giver. I'd like to-- I'd like to see more results. I'd like to see something more tangible. You must worry about this and think about this. You've confronted this, perhaps yourself endlessly.

FATHER LARRY SNYDER: It is a concern. And I think we have to admit that not all of our programs in the past have been effective. And that's something that at Catholic Charities we took a very long, hard look at several years ago. We at least we in charities and a few other agencies in our community have moved on to adopt what we call an empowerment model. And the empowerment model really focuses on engaging the person in their own recovery.

And until we do that, then we're just going to have to keep giving a person fish. But when you get a person engaged in their recovery, you attack the problem at the level of motivation, desire, spirituality, so that they can really take on the changes that they need in their life to get where they need to go.

Twin Cities Rise is a good example of the empowerment model, and we certainly have had many conversations with them, but we have tried and are in the process of trying of redesigning all of our programs that target people living in poverty to be empowerment based models, meaning that if you want something here, you've got to give something as well. Because the old thing is, I mean, we find that if we don't require anything of people, we're not going to get anything back. And the return we have found is incredible already.

We have a pay for stay program at one of our shelters where if you come to the shelter and you're not willing to pay $3, you get a mat on the floor with 150 other men and you get about 6 inches between each mat. Not the kind of place where you or I would ever want to spend much time.

But for $3, the person can go upstairs, get a bunk bed, a locker, showers, everything. You can get showers in a meal downstairs, too. But you don't get a locker. You get wake up calls, all that, all that good stuff. And it's amazing when people have moved up to the second floor how quickly then they transition out of the shelter system.

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DAN OLSON: Father Larry Snyder is the outgoing executive director of Catholic Charities Saint Paul and Minneapolis. His new job beginning in February is head of Catholic Charities USA in Alexandria, Virginia. You're listening to Voices of Minnesota on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Dan Olson. Later this hour, a conversation with Sister Andrea Lee, the president of the College of Saint Catherine in Saint Paul, the country's largest Catholic school for women.

Catholic Charities Saint Paul and Minneapolis operates Saint Joseph's home for children in Minneapolis. It's Minnesota's largest residential program for children from troubled families. A few years ago, Catholic Charities started Covenant Academy in [? Faribo ?] a residential charter school for teens.

Catholic Charities got its start as an orphanage. However, the charter school and Saint Joseph's home don't fit the orphanage stereotype. Father Snyder says, the best outcome for children from troubled homes is to preserve the family. Here's more of my conversation with Father Snyder.

What about families that are in too much distress? Have we as a society been a little too shy about saying to them, I'm sorry, the kids aren't doing well here. We have to be more assertive and aggressive in taking the children out of the home, placing them in foster care for actually a fairly long period of time.

FATHER LARRY SNYDER: Well, again, I think we would say that foster-- taking children out of the home is the last resort. There have to be some really legitimate reasons about the safety of the child, because as far as I can tell, the studies have shown that leaving a child in the home is always much better and giving the parents then the skills and the tools that they need to provide a healthy home, a home where the child is going to really get the development that they need is far better than the trauma of removing a child.

Now, I say that knowing that at Saint Joseph's home for children, we care for children who have been taken out of their home. So we see the trauma that they go through--

DAN OLSON: By the county they've been taken out.

FATHER LARRY SNYDER: That's correct, by the county. We see the trauma that they go through, and we then try to advocate that the parents are going to have the skills, the resources that they need so that this doesn't happen again. Now, having said that, let me talk about another of our programs, which we opened, which is called Covenant Academy.

And it is a boarding school for kids from seventh grade through 12th grade. And basically, it's for kids who don't have a stable home environment and who, in fact, have the talents that they need to succeed, but who aren't succeeding in school because they don't have the support system.

So at Covenant Academy, we-- well, for example, why did we come up with this concept? Well, at Saint Joe's, we have seen kids that by the time they're 12 years old have been at Saint Joe's 15 or 16 times in placements. They don't have the stability in their life to succeed.

But when they're at Saint Joe's, they do very well. And I think there's part of that, that institutional environment that is a safety piece for them. So for those kids, and it's a very, very small percentage of kids who don't succeed in foster care, Covenant Academy is a solution.

DAN OLSON: Well, it sounds like covenant academy then is already a version of something that people didn't want to talk about, maybe still don't want to talk about so much, orphanages. The fact that people, young people, children in the most extreme circumstances need a setting. We've had various other private charitable groups that have wanted to build homes, orphanages. Do we need to go back to that model, return to that model in a more modern format?

FATHER LARRY SNYDER: Well, it's an interesting question because when you look at our history, we were founded as an orphanage in 1869. So that basically is our roots. But if you look at how child care has progressed, developed from 1869 to now, the needs of our community are very different. And I think it was around 1960 that, in fact, the state of Minnesota quit licensing orphanages.

Back when we were founded, obviously, we were in a state full of immigrants. And if I'm not mistaken, there was a cholera epidemic back then and a lot of parents died leaving children orphaned. So you had a situation where there were children without extended families. The extended families, of course, were back in Europe somewhere. And that was a need that needed at that time to be fulfilled.

Now you get to 1960-- well, let me say one other interesting historical thing is when we went through the depression, even though Saint Joe's was still an orphanage, you found people bringing their children to Saint Joe's and saying, will you care for my child because I can't afford it. I can't feed my child. I can't clothe my child. Will you do this? So we did. And now these were orphans that had parents but not viable home situations. And interesting, as the economy then did pick up, people would come back and take their children back home. So that was a need at that particular time that we responded to.

But by 1960, pretty much people had extended families that if there were a crisis with the parents, for whatever reason, the extended family could step in. And in that situation, it really should be the family that keeps the child within their family's system. Now we've got a situation that where foster care, when there is no extended family, there is a good foster care system. And that should be the first choice after extended family.

But we do have situations where there is not even in the extended family, a viable thing or where a child, because of, for example, attachment disorder, is not going to be able to do well in a foster care situation. Those are the kinds of situations where Catholic Charities today is stepping in and saying, we need another solution here so that all children's needs are going to be satisfied.

DAN OLSON: I want to go back to a comment you made to ask your opinion as to whether or not we made a big mistake in public policy in the '60s and '70s in this country. You mentioned about half of the folks who come to visit your drop in centers are folks who are addicted or mentally ill or both. Did we take a wrong turn with deinstitutionalization and so-called community care, community settings, community homes for folks?

I mean, the institutions in some instances were awful. Not across the board. Some of them were OK, but some of them were awful. But now looking at the folks who are addicted and mentally ill, their circumstances seem awful. They're out on the streets. They're cold. They're hungry. They don't seem to be well cared for at all, except, of course, when they have the good fortune of coming to a drop in center of some kind. Did we make a wrong turn?

FATHER LARRY SNYDER: Well, again, it's an interesting question because on one level we did not. And on another level we did. And I think on the philosophical level, we did the right thing. I mean, as far as buying into the deinstitutionalization, that in and of itself was the right decision to make. The problem is, on a practical level, we never followed through with it. We let people out on the street without a community support system.

So where should mental health issues be taken care of? In the community without a doubt. But we never funded them. And so people were left with no resources. So it-- which was worse, the institutions or being on the street. I think it's a tough question because I think they were both bad solutions.

And what we should be doing is taking care of people's mental health needs in the community, but funding them at the level that they really need to be. And I think there's some very good, good movements now of people recognizing that mental health should be covered just as-- by insurance as to the degree that we fund physical health.

DAN OLSON: Father Larry Snyder, thank you so much for your time. A privilege to talk with you.

FATHER LARRY SNYDER: Thank you, Dan.

DAN OLSON: Father Larry Snyder is the new head of Catholic Charities USA, based in Alexandria, Virginia. He's led Catholic Charities Saint Paul and Minneapolis for 13 years.

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You're listening to Voices of Minnesota on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Dan Olson.

Sister Andrea Lee is the president of the College of Saint Catherine in Saint Paul, the country's largest Catholic school for women. The colleges observing its 100th anniversary this year. Women only colleges are declining in number. Many have opted to go co-educational. Sister Andrea Lee says that won't happen at Saint Catherine's. She's been president there for six years.

The college was founded at a time when higher education for women was rare. Some Catholic leaders opposed opening the college. Women in the Catholic Church still contend with teachings which some say relegate them to second class status behind men. Sister Andrea declines to label herself a conservative, moderate, or liberal on church issues.

She's been an advocate for the ordination of women as clergy. That goal, she says, does not appear to be close at hand. I spoke with sister Andrea at her college of Saint Catherine office. Besides being an administrator, she's trained as an elementary school teacher, a musician, and she's a parent. She became an adoptive parent of her son, Lyons, while working at an inner city Detroit college.

Do I have it right that one day, a group of children from Haiti came through. And anyway, the end of the story is that you became a parent.

SISTER ANDREA LEE: That's correct. Nine children came from an orphanage in Port Au Prince. And as God's grace would have it, one of them is now my son.

DAN OLSON: Who's beyond teen years now. He's a young adult.

SISTER ANDREA LEE: He's 20, and he's a sophomore at the University of Minnesota. Wants to be an elementary school teacher.

DAN OLSON: So you're an empty nester. But I guess parents of college students are never really empty nesters.

SISTER ANDREA LEE: I'm not quite an empty nester. He often comes home on the weekend. He lives over at the U. But he's around St. Kate's because his girlfriend is a student here. So he's here many, many days.

DAN OLSON: So what's it like being a single parent? You adopted Lyons when he was, I think, 15 or so.

SISTER ANDREA LEE: 11. He was 11.

DAN OLSON: He was 11. Wow. And there you raised a teenager, as a single parent. What was that like?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: Well, it was-- some people said to me, well, how are you going to raise a boy. And I said, well, I guess when you're the oldest girl in a family of six, you know a lot about boys. And so it's been a wonderful experience. He's a wonderful kid. And my brothers have been wonderful uncles to him. And I have had lots of support from my religious community and from my friends who-- and no one meets my child and doesn't love him. So he's an easy child to love, and he's been an easy child to raise.

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DAN OLSON: Sister Andrea Lee is the president of the College of Saint Catherine in Saint Paul. Many of Saint Catherine's 4,800 students are headed for careers in nursing, education, or other service occupations. Sister Andrea says an all women's college is a good environment for leadership training. Here's more of our conversation.

I had to smile. I don't know where the quote comes from. I think it was some church leader 100 years or more than 100 years ago quoting the saying, "women will die, if they're exposed to higher education." Would you agree?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: Oh, yes, we have that quote enthroned here. They'll shrivel up and die. And obviously, we have not shriveled up and die. And women are certainly very much in the forefront of higher education, both in women's schools and in institutions of higher education in general.

DAN OLSON: Why do you think it's a good idea to educate women in a college separate from men?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: Our experience over the entire century and the experience of other women's colleges has made it clear that women have opportunities to lead and influence right while they're students in higher education institutions for women. Our particular institution has had a long history of really generating graduates who are disproportionately represented in leadership positions, in business and in education, in social work, in the church, in the community. So if you look at the representation of women in congress, women on the judicial bench, women in Fortune 500 companies, disproportionately graduates of women's colleges.

DAN OLSON: I don't know the number, but I think a fair number of formerly all women colleges have, in fact, gone coeducational. I mean, what's the pressure? Do you see that in the future of College of Saint Catherine eventually?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: No, I don't. And anyone who's heard me speak, I gave a speech two years ago called At the Heart of the Matter, and the faculty affectionately called it my love it or leave it speech. And I talked about the core identifiers of the College of Saint Catherine being women, Catholic and liberal arts, and that we were not going co-ed, at least not on my watch. And we're very strong. In fact, I think this fall, we will become the college in the United States that enrolls the most women in undergraduate programs for women only of any women's college.

DAN OLSON: What's the status of women in higher education in this country? Are they enrolling in colleges generally in about the same numbers as men?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: Actually, in many institutions, they are the majority of students. And in fact, some institutions have gotten a little worried about that, about the fact that women have really advanced in terms of raw numbers in higher education at a rate that's higher than their actual presence in the population.

DAN OLSON: Well, after graduation, women's salaries are still across the economy, lower than men. What does that persistence of that gap tell us do you think about our society?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: Well, it says a lot about how persistent the gender biases are. It's reflects itself in not only the fact that overall the wages of women are about $0.76 on the dollar for men in the same jobs, but also in terms of traditionally female occupations, teaching, social work, nursing, daycare, early childhood education, places that are predominantly populated by women are also the lowest paid in terms of wages.

DAN OLSON: What happens to college of Saint Catherine graduates? Are they more oriented towards those kinds of service, lower wage type jobs, or where do they end up?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: Our belief is and our evidence says that they're leading and influencing wherever they find themselves. So, for example, in we may have nurses who graduate who rise to the top of the nursing associations, or they become teachers, or professors, or department heads in the hospitals. But that doesn't change the fact that they still are women across the country are in jobs that are systematically devalued by the economy.

DAN OLSON: What's been the effect of the Supreme Court ruling regarding scrapping affirmative action guidelines in some college admissions, do you think, around the country? Now, a handful of some public sector and I assume some private sector colleges around the country are seeing fewer faces of color in their incoming classes. What's happening at College of Saint Catherine? Is there less diversity, more diversity and then generalize to higher education?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: Well, at the College of Saint Catherine, we're very fortunate to have a wonderful and good array of students of color at our college. Across the nation, I think that there is increasing concern among higher education leaders that we are creating a system of a bifurcated system where students of color who are disproportionately low income will not have access.

DAN OLSON: Does a number of percent come off the top of your head for College of Saint Catherine enrollment of students of color?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: Our incoming class is around 22% students of color.

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DAN OLSON: College of Saint Catherine President, Sister Andrea Lee. You're listening to Voices of Minnesota on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Dan Olson. A growing number of families in this country can't afford a college education for their children. On the other hand, colleges face limits in their ability to offer financial aid to families. Let's return to the conversation with Sister Andrea Lee.

The cost of college tuition continues to increase, I think, at a rate really several times faster than inflation. So why is that happening? What's driving up the cost?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: Well, one of the things that's driving up the cost is that-- is the effect of 25 years ago, institutions holding down their tuition and trying to do that and then play catch up. So if you look, I would dare say, that most institutions could open their books to the scrutiny of any auditor or any analyst and not find much waste. It's a very labor intensive business, if you want to have good interaction between professors, and students. And no one would ever convince me that college professors are overpaid.

DAN OLSON: Well, that was my next question. Are faculty salaries the big driver in cost increases?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: They're certainly a driver, but they're not the only driver. Student financial aid, another one. The cost of facilities, a lot of aging infrastructure on colleges around the country, insurance, health insurance, benefits for employees.

DAN OLSON: Well, that really gets us to the point. How can young people and their families these days afford to attend, you know, high quality private colleges like college of Saint Catherine, given modest means?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: Well, one of the things that's kind of counterintuitive is that many lower income and low middle income families are willing to sacrifice more for their children's education financially than parents who have more means. Very interesting phenomenon. But it's been borne out. We have many, many parents of students here who make incredible-- incredibly humbling sacrifices to send their daughters here. And our financial aid staff do whatever they can to provide financial aid, provide help to students in seeking scholarship funds so that they can attend.

DAN OLSON: I mean, as you look at the profile of the young women coming to the College of Saint Catherine, as you talk with your higher education colleagues and look across the country, are we seeing apparently that more and more of the collective student body in higher education in this country are kids from or young people from wealthier families? And so we're-- is that-- are we increasingly seeing a two tier of society being perpetuated in higher education?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: I think that's certainly a danger. There's an increasing widening gap between the haves and the have-nots in the country around many fronts. So it would not be surprising that it reflects itself in terms of access to higher education as well. I think one of the things that we work very hard at St. Kate's to overcome is the belief among lower income students that they can't even consider college because they couldn't afford it. And so our admissions and financial aid staff do a lot of work with prospective students and families. And many-- all the colleges do this to try to say, yes, you can afford it, and here's how we can help you to do that.

DAN OLSON: What's to be done? Pay higher taxes to create still another way of financing higher education for students.

SISTER ANDREA LEE: Well, I think many states, Minnesota certainly among them, are facing this dilemma, not only in terms of the financing of higher education, but financing of education in general. It's reflected at the federal level with No Child Left Behind Act and try to look for the funding to undergird that act. It's just not there. If you look across the states, and I look at the higher education, particularly in Minnesota, there's no question that the state legislature is going to have to wrestle with this issue in a very fundamental way.

My personal belief about this is that it is time for the state, its people, and its legislators to really do some hard thinking about what the priorities are within the state, if they want a first rate state where people want to live, where there's a strong economic life, where it is an attractive place to live and work, then they have to have-- we have to have a strong higher education system.

And I think in this state and in all states, the complementarity of the community college system, a flagship university like the University of Minnesota, and a strong private system is the best way to attain that. That may mean more taxes. And I happen to believe that people who want certain things, if they understand the relationship between what they want and what it costs, are willing to pay for that.

I think it is very unfortunate when either at the legislative level or in the press, we start talking about pitting higher education versus K to 12 or pitting public against private. No one is served well, then. The fact is, a low income student who wants to go to college in Minnesota needs financial aid, whether he or she goes to a community college, to the University of Minnesota or to the College of Saint Catherine. And so it's to our peril not to reckon with that.

DAN OLSON: College of Saint Catherine president Sister Andrea Lee. Saint Catherine's is the country's largest women's Catholic college. It's observing its 100th anniversary this year. Sister Andrea chooses her words carefully when talking about the role of women in the Catholic Church. She advocates a stronger role for women. She's also aware of the church's admonition that followers must abide by church teachings. Here's more of our conversation.

Do you still favor the ordination of women as priests in the Roman Catholic Church?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: It deeply saddens me that women are not ordained in the Catholic Church. I believe that women could serve in that capacity very well, and I hope and pray that will happen someday. At the same time, I respect that the teaching authority of the church has said that that's not to be right now. And I continue to work within the church to find good and constructive ways for women to become more engaged.

DAN OLSON: I mean, in your personal look at it, do you think we're closer or further away from a day that women will be priests?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: I don't know that I could answer further or closer away. I started working or being interested in this issue when I was in my 20s, and I don't see that much has changed. Although, I do see many efforts on the part of the church to engage women in active leadership roles.

DAN OLSON: How do you think American Catholics, especially American Catholic women, are getting along with the church these days?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: I think women, lay women, in particular, and religious women, have become increasingly vocal, increasingly unwilling to not have their voice heard. That is true for women, religious like myself. But I also believe it's true for lay women who, say, are no longer willing to just kind of sit down and wait to be told. They are competent leaders who are force to be reckoned within the church.

DAN OLSON: I gather from what I read and hear that the church, the Catholic Church leaders are more interested these days in encouraging members and followers to more closely follow church-- doctrine church teachings on a range of topics. How is that being received by you personally, by Catholic women generally?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: Well, I'm not sure that I would want to answer about personally, but I think, in the country, the response is coming in two ways. One is that there is I think, a growing, increasingly vocal group of self-defined Orthodox Catholics. That's the way they would define themselves, who would see rigid alignment with the church's teachings as an essential litmus test for being Catholic.

There is another increasingly vocal group of Catholic laypeople and religious who, like our own Archbishop John Ireland did 100 years ago, believe that there is an American brand of Catholicism, that's probably not the right term, but an American way of being Catholic that may not be the same as it is in Latin America, or Africa, or Europe.

I believe that's a wise way to think about it. I do think the cultural context within which the church develops is different in America than it is in Latin America, than it is different in Africa or Europe, and that Americans are pretty much going to insist on a recognition of the fact that an American Catholic Church is alive and vital and has to be reckoned with.

DAN OLSON: That doesn't amount to parishes and congregations breaking away from Rome.

SISTER ANDREA LEE: No, I don't mean that at all. In fact, I don't think-- I don't know very many people who are interested in breaking away. They're interested in being vital, engaged, but also having a liturgical and other church life that really is consistent with their experience as Americans, Catholics.

DAN OLSON: Well, I'm very aware of the care you're using and choosing the words to describe this, because I gather that, at least professionally, would you prefer to be seen as a moderate, somebody who is working inside and trying to bring factions together. Is that how you see your role?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: You know, one of my early mentors said this, and it's always something that I've tried to hold to. It's that we are loving critics and critical lovers of the church. And so I don't know that I want to be labeled as a conservative, a liberal, or a moderate. I would say none of the above. I am an engaged, professional Catholic woman who cares very deeply about the church and is willing to work to help it be its best self.

DAN OLSON: So at a Catholic institution of higher education, how does church doctrine unfold? I mean, take the case of discussing abortion in the classroom. What are the limits of discussion?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: Well, there would be no limits to discussing abortion in a classroom. Our expectations at a Catholic college would be that the faculty teach the Catholic position on whatever the topic would be, but we would also expect that they would, as part of the student's education, teach other perspectives on it, and lead students to the development of a mature conscience that could make those kind of serious ethical choices.

DAN OLSON: What about faculty members who aren't Christian and who, in one instance here, I think somewhat recently invited somebody from the Freedom from Religion Foundation to speak on campus. They were barred from speaking on campus, spoke off campus instead. How does that square with the perception that a college campus is a forum for raising any and all topics?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: A college campus is a forum, but there are procedures on campuses for how speakers are engaged and brought to the campus. And in that particular case, procedures were not followed. Where I have drawn the line here and would continue to do so would be bringing to campus any speaker who would ridicule or denigrate the Catholic identity of the college. So we might well and have had speakers here who aren't Catholic, who disagree, who are publicly disagree with Catholic teachings on this or that issue, and will continue to do so. But at the same time, I would not knowingly invite someone to campus who was going to ridicule or denigrate our beliefs.

DAN OLSON: Religious moderates seem marginalized at the moment by extremists who claim religious backing as well. What do you think about this current religious revival we are in the United states, regardless of whose religion it is?

SISTER ANDREA LEE: Well, it's very disappointing to me. I have for my entire life been both inspired and motivated by, in my faith, the call of the gospel to engage in creating just world. And it's disappointing to me when people-- disappointing and dismaying to me when people use religion as a way to marginalize people, as a way to exclude people, as a way to justify behavior that I can't find consistent, not consistent with the gospel, at least, that I believe in.

Worldwide, I think religious extremism, as we've known over the centuries, and particularly in the last few years, has fueled so much hatred and so much sadness and misery in the world that I hope that, in some ways, the more moderate traditions of the great world religions, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, can somehow come together and overpower this extremism in some ways. And that extremism manifests itself in every single religious tradition.

So that part is it's a deep sadness to me and something that I truly believe must sadden God Almighty in a very profound way. Some people have said to me, well, why doesn't God come down and rescue us. But, you know, a friend, a spiritual director, said to me many years ago this that God leaves us to work out our own salvation in a grace filled world. So I guess my hope is that we find both the experiences and the people who are the embodiments of that grace and keep at it. We're in it for the long haul.

DAN OLSON: Sister Andrea Lee, Thank you so much for your time. What a pleasure talking to you.

SISTER ANDREA LEE: It's a pleasure to talk with you as well. Thank you so much.

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DAN OLSON: Sister Andrea Lee is the president of the College of Saint Catherine in Saint Paul, the country's largest women's Catholic college. It's 100 years old this year. You've been listening to Voices of Minnesota on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Dan Olson.

MIKE EDGERLY: And this is Midday coming to you on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Mike Edgerly in this week for Gary Eichten. A reminder that all of our Midday programs are archived on the website MinnesotaPublicRadio.org. And then at 9:00 tonight, it is the Midday repeat. You will hear our conversation with Minneapolis Star Tribune outdoor columnist Dennis Anderson talking about hunting, hunter and landowner rights and conflicts, and access to hunting and angling properties in our region. That comes your way at 9 o'clock tonight on Minnesota Public Radio.

SPEAKER 2: I have a question for you guys about turkey, and it's kind of a bizarre one.

KERRI MILLER: Trying to crack the code of holiday cooking. Tune in to Turkey Confidential. Lynne Rossetto Kasper, culinary sleuth and the host of The Splendid Table will save the day or at least save your Thanksgiving meal. Join me, Kerri Miller, for a special mid-morning from 9:00 to 11:00 on Thanksgiving Day. Then stay tuned for Giving Thanks with John Birge at noon.

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SPEAKER 5: Twin Cities weather for this afternoon, partly cloudy skies. We may see a high approaching 35 degrees. It'll be a little breezy. Northwest winds 5 to 10. Tonight, mostly clear, partly cloudy later on. The lows tonight 15 to 24. For tomorrow, Thanksgiving Day, partly cloudy in the morning, then becoming mostly cloudy in the afternoon. The high around 35. Tomorrow night, cloudy, a 50% chance of snow, Thanksgiving night. Temperatures steady in the upper 20s.

And then Friday, mostly cloudy. The high reaching 40 degrees. Saturday and Sunday, partly cloudy both days. The highs around 35 degrees. Heading into the workweek, partly cloudy, the highs around 30. Presently, in the Twin cities, it's mostly sunny and the temperature is 31 degrees.