(00:00:00) Good morning from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Steven John Vice President Dick Cheney visits the Twin Cities to campaign for re-election today. Minnesota public. Radio's Mike Mulcahy reports. The vice president will speak at a luncheon at a Downtown Minneapolis Hotel. Then visit a Mexican restaurant on st. Paul's West Side. His wife Lynn is scheduled to be with him President Bush narrowly lost Minnesota to Al Gore in 2000 and many Republicans say the president has a good chance of winning the state this year. Republicans aren't the only ones campaigning in Minnesota on Saturday Senator. John Edwards held a rally in st. Paul Ohio representative Dennis kucinich also made a series of campaign stops in the state over the weekend and the Democratic FrontRunner Senator. John Kerry is scheduled to be in st. Paul on Wednesday after his visit to the Twin Cities vice president Cheney heads to Wichita, Kansas for a campaign event there. I'm Mike Mulcahy, Minnesota Public Radio a Southwestern, Minnesota, man. Dead in a farm accident The Rock County Sheriff's Department says 29 year-old Scott humbling died in a skid loader accident. The accident happened late Friday afternoon at a farm three miles north of Hardwick st. Paul police shot and killed two pit bulls after the dogs attacked and killed an elderly Woman's pet Chihuahua authorities said the pit bulls were shot by the officers after they attacked a second dog in the East Side neighborhood. No one has been arrested in the incident State forecast. Mostly cloudy scattered light snow showers in the north highs from the upper 20s to the upper 30s areas of fog again tonight and continued mild on Tuesday light snow in International Falls right now in Duluth. It's cloudy and 31 Albert Lee reports fog and 34 degrees. The Twin Cities is cloudy and 34. That's a news update from Minnesota Public Radio. All right. Thanks Stephen at 6 minutes now past 11. And good morning. Welcome to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us. There is a another well-known candidate running for president of the United States for months. Of course, the political world has focused on which Democrat would be running against George Bush this fall but now we can add a third big name to the contest Ralph Nader. Mr. Nadir who ran as the green Party's candidate for years ago formally announced yesterday that he will run as an independent this time around. He says he intends to address what he calls the Democracy Gap in America a problem. He says that neither major party is willing to talk about Democrats say they're afraid that Ralph Nader will siphon off just enough votes to assure the president's re-election. But Nader himself says he believes he'll draw more votes away from George Bush then from the Democratic nominee during this our midday. We're going to focus on Ralph Nader's decision to run what it might mean for politics here in Minnesota and around the nation joining us in the studio is - who teaches political science at the University of Minnesota? She's the author of a well-respected book on Third Party politics titled the tyranny of the two-party system. And as always we invite you to join our conversation. If you have a question or a comment about Ralph Nader's decision to run for president, give us a call here at Twin City area number is 6512276 thousand 6512276 thousand our toll free number is 1-800-218-4243 an online if you prefer just go to our website, Minnesota Public Radio dot org and click on send a question Minnesota Public Radio dot-org. That's the web address. Click on send a question Lisa dish. Thanks for coming over today for she ate it. Thank you Gary. Are you surprised that Ralph Nader when all was said and done decided to run again this year? He was under some fairly intense pressure. Even from some of his more Avid supporters of four years ago not to run shocked. (00:04:00) Are you really? Yeah, there's no question that there's a democracy Gap in this country that needs to be addressed and that we do need a systematic critique of two-party politics. But an independent campaign by a charismatic Outsider is not the way to do it. Why not? Well in the first place Ralph Nader ought to be running on the ballot line of a green party that he secured by his prior candidacy by winning five percent of the vote in the general election, which he failed to do that was the purpose of his campaign was to establish the green party as a party and as a vehicle through which citizens and candidates can build a sustained critique of two-party politics having failed to do that to come in as an independent candidate with no infrastructure. No, Grassroots organizing no consistent. Well developed policy positions and supporters. He's doing he's not A political attack on the political system. He's making a charismatic kind of star quality attack which in many ways mimics the very system he purports to be (00:05:13) criticizing but in terms of raising issues, isn't this assuming he can somehow get on the ballot and so on so forth get some media attention isn't this just as effective in terms of raising issues as if he were running as a green Party candidate or you know any other Party (00:05:28) candidate, I don't really think so for one thing the primary process this time around has worked very effectively to raise at least some issues by dissenters Howard Dean has in fact performed the function of the opposition candidate which very often happens in the two-party system that that function moves from third parties to the primary contest and I think we saw that this year in that Howard Dean made it safe. Least to criticize the president about the war and the and also some of the civil liberties issues that have emerged around the war on terrorism. I do not mean to exaggerate the effectiveness of that kind of criticism, but to run a presidential campaign as a kind of billboard for Outsider issues is not a particularly politically responsible thing to do one should build oppositional institutions and Ralph Nader had the opportunity to build an oppositional institution, which he failed to do. There was a wonderful political cartoon in the New York Times, which I think really spelled out the Dilemma that we face right now. John Kerry is on a stage in an auditorium speaking to a group of people and he's confronted by huge placards saying housed Bush anybody but Bush we hate Bush and he stands there and says, I feel your love well the car. To demonstrates the kind of distorted communication that a two-party system produces voters do not see the Democrats and in particular they do not necessarily see John Kerry as a truly clear oppositional voice for the tremendous amount of dissent that exists in the United States right now. He is their only choice and they will vote for him in order to vote against George Bush that is not a particularly useful mode of political agency to not vote for but rather vote against Ralph Nader doesn't give us anything to vote for either as a single charismatic (00:07:43) individual remind us why it is that he is not running as a green Party candidate this (00:07:48) year. He's not running because what it would have taken in the prior election for him to qualify the greens for a permanent for permanent. Ballot status would have been five percent of the Vote in the general election, which he failed to get and part of the reason he failed to get that was that he very often focused his campaign on those states where he had a tremendous amount of support where there were lots of progressives here. For example, Oregon is another place Wisconsin was another place and people many voters made the typical gesture that they make towards third party candidates in a two-party system was they got cold feet when it came time to vote because progressives actually did see a difference between Al Gore and George Bush in the previous election. One of Ralph Nader's biggest mistakes was to campaign on the idea that there wasn't a difference between Al Gore and George Bush and there truly was that wasn't why his campaign was needed his campaign was needed because we should have built a framework for a green party. And in order to do that. He should have campaigned harder where citizens could have cast a cost-free vote for the green party where for example, there was a safe state for Gore or a safe state for Bush he Choose a party building strategy in the ways that he ought to have when he ran and had he done that he would now have a fabulous fabulous opportunity to bring forward the issues that I think he's wonderful on and that are not being voiced. No one is voicing the stress that is on working people in the United States. No one is voicing that no one is voicing anything about the corruption of campaign Finance. No one is voicing that and we have no candidates on the you know, who are visible and viable who would be inclined to do that because they benefit from special interests and they are not candidates who understand anything about the lives of working people and I would love to have Ralph Nader in this election in a truly party rooted way, but he failed to create an institution for himself. (00:09:51) If if he's not in your mind going to going about this in the right way in terms of a challenging the basic political system. He likely to have an impact on how the election turns out in November which seems to be the big matter of concern certainly the Democrats and presumably to some Republicans and some haters claims. He's going to take more Republican votes than Democrat votes. Will he be able to influence who actually wins in November? (00:10:25) I doubt it. I think that the sentiment among progresses against George Bush is so strong. And the sense that we inadvertently had a world historical election in the year 2000 the whole landscape the the way in which the international political order works now civil rights and civil liberties in the United States have taken a remarkable turn partisan differences have hardened all of this is a result of George Bush's remarkably authoritarian presidency. And I think that Americans have or have a deep-seated bias against independent Challengers anyway, and I think that they will probably shun Nader and I think actually personally I think that's a shame because I think there's a lot of dissent that is not Being voiced but when third parties are independent candidates behave irresponsibly in this system. They confirm every stereotype that American citizens have about descent and we are as progressives people are really confronted with a genuine agonizing dilemma. I (00:11:43) think we're talking this hour with the University of Minnesota political scientist. Eliza dish author of a book on Third Party politics titled the tyranny of the two-party system. She's been good enough to join us today to talk about Ralph Nader's decision to run for president this time around as an independent rather than as a green Party candidate as he did four years ago. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call here, six five one two, two seven six thousand or 1-800 to for 22828. We want to remind you can also submit your question online if you prefer is go to our website, Minnesota Public Radio dot org and click on send a question Cynthia your Right place. Thanks for taking my call. Hmm. (00:12:27) I agree that Ralph Nader may be undermining his own candidacy by running as an independent (00:12:33) and yet I agree with his argument that both parties are bought off by big powerful special interests in corporations. I also agree with Professor dishes view that no one is addressing the real needs of working people and that includes Senator Edwards. So the my question is who where else can we go those of us who want to vote for a candidate (00:12:58) that (00:13:00) reflects our (00:13:02) priorities? (00:13:06) It's too bad, you know Ralph Nader had established in his reputation on being a consumer Advocate and that I think that was his motivation for his previous candidacies for the with the green party and I voted for him in 96 and 2000. I don't personally believe that I cost Al Gore the election Al Gore cost Al Gore the election. That's what I firmly believe. (00:13:41) So I (00:13:41) mean where else can we go on except not (00:13:44) vote Cynthia. That's a an excellent question where else can we go? That is the Dilemma that the two-party system produces for us where we can go as we can organize electorally in oppositional ways at the state level so we can continue to turn out for green party candidates here we can contribute to that party use our political. Contribution rebate that way we can go door to door for green party candidates. We can work to get them elected to the city council and we can fight the two-party. Tyranny on the city council that is redistribute redistricted itself to eliminate the green party seats. We don't have any place to go nationally. I'm sorry. If you don't want George Bush to be re-elected you ought to vote for whoever the Democrats come up with you are right you didn't you did not cost Al Gore the election it is a myth a widely understood math or a widely accepted myth that NATO's presence in the election swung it to Bush but in fact in Iowa, New Mexico, Oregon and Wisconsin Buchanan's vote total, exceeded the difference between Gore and Bush which is to say that had Buchanan not been in the election George Bush would have won, Iowa, New Mexico, Oregon. Wisconsin (00:15:05) but it also is true though that had Nate or not been in the race. Presumably Gore would have carried carried (00:15:10) Florida, right? Yeah, but Gore wouldn't have been able to win simply by carrying Florida had Bush won in the states where you can and Swing Vote. (00:15:19) What about Nader's claim that this time around? He's actually going to get more votes from Republicans and Democrats. Is there any I mean, I just seems to fly in the face of common sense, but that's his argument. Is it true? (00:15:33) I have to say that I'm very puzzled by that and I don't know what rationale he's giving for that. Are there a lot of pro-environment pro social welfare state pro-tax Republicans running around I don't notice them in our state. I you know, I don't think that the criticism that that nature provides of this system is something that has purchased with Republicans. I think it has purchased with a tremendous size. Paralyzed Progressive Coalition that as Cynthia says so powerfully doesn't have any place to go. There's no Organization for (00:16:13) them. Now presumably Ralph Nader would not have much trouble getting on the ballot here in Minnesota. I guess just 2,000 signatures are required out of a population of five million, but Nationwide is that going to pose quite a problem. He was on 43 ballots in 2000 as a practical matter. Can he get on very many ballots in other states? (00:16:36) I would be very surprised. I shouldn't speak about things that I don't know directly, but I would be surprised that there are enough progressives willing to mobilize to gather the signatures necessary to put him on the ballot. So he will probably have to narrow his Campaign to a number of strategic states, which really only makes him look even worse because he's not viable as a nationwide candidate again and here is where it would help to have a party because if you have a party you have ranks who are well, I mean if you had a party he'd have a ballot line, but you this it is a tremendously costly Enterprise to get yourself on the ballot Ross Perot accomplished it by paying between one and five dollars per signature. Ralph. Nader's not going to do that and rightfully so but I do think that the obstacles that the two major parties put up to oppositional candidates will blunt the force of Nader's campaign and he simply he's entering into late. I (00:17:42) think John your question, please well, it's a comment. Thanks for your show. And thanks for your guests compliment the insights. You've kind of described to me I voted for Nader. At last time around and felt great about that. I think this time around I will not do so, but will vote for the Democratic alternative not take a vote away from Mater but to try and Advance a change in the white house. So I appreciate to the previous caller and your response of ways that we can try and promote a third party alternative but clearly don't see that as a an option for me at the national level. So now I'm switching from from Nader to a Democratic candidate. Whoever that person may be. Okay. Thanks John. Appreciate the call online question Lisa dish from Michael and Saint Paul who asks isn't the sole reason that Nader's not running as a green because the green nominating convention isn't until June and of course if he didn't get the nomination why it would be presumably pretty late to do much of (00:18:48) anything. Michael I don't know and we should ask Kim Borden when we have him on (00:18:55) will be talking with him in a couple of minutes. Let's go back to the phones here Jeff. That would be you go ahead place. I think seeing my call. I agree with your guests 100% I was an atar voter in 2000 and supported him in every way that I could at the time and when I got an email a few weeks back when he announced that he was thinking about running and I sent a rather impassioned email encouraging him not to you know saying that I think right now that there's a bigger issue at hand and that we need you know that for lack of a better term regime change here, but I think I think this is a major mistake for him. Politically. I think it's almost political suicide because he's really coming across as I don't know almost desperate. I heard it. I heard an interview with him the same day on NPR on talking the nation and he he sounded like he was almost angry at the response and he was being but he was he was bucking really hard saying this is you know, people are trying to take away my right to run the exact same across very wrong. I mean nobody's trying to take away his right to run it. Just I think there's a bigger issue at hand that everyone that I know is simply looking to get George Bush out of the White House and okay encourage them to run in 2008 and I thought that was a better idea. But thanks Jeff. Yep, Ralph Nader argues among other things that there are, you know, a hundred million people who don't even bother to vote and that his candidacy among other things will attract a lot of those people. Is that true. (00:20:45) I don't think so. There's a lovely myth that If you build it, they will come that little baseball movie many many years ago. There's a lovely myth of spontaneous eruption that there are people who don't vote and who would only vote if they could be drawn by someone that they feel compelled and represented and identified with and this is a very dangerous myth because the reasons people vote are because they are systematically shut out of the system. They are demobilized. It's not because they are uninspired it's because they are (00:21:23) demobilized and a lot of people come out to vote for Jesse Ventura in 1998 who otherwise just weren't (00:21:31) interested. Yes, Ventura had a kind of charismatic appeal but let's remember that Ventura had a ballot line. He did run on the ballot line of the Reform Party. There is a structure in this state to allow for more open. Mobilization we have same day election registration. We do have the political public campaign financing which enabled Ventura and also the presence in the debates and on national public radio NPR NPR which enabled Ventura to it's more Ventura was more than a charismatic candidate is what I'm trying to say. There were a number of structures that allowed him to bring a flow of people into politics and the Reform Party had frankly been, you know had been organizing for eight years in the state and that was not immaterial to Ventura his candidacy had he run as an independent. I think that the outcome of that election would have looked quite different but in fact he ran as something that was looking like a kind of national movement that tapped social progressives people identifies socially Progressive and fiscally conservative rational or whatever you want to say, so I it's not that I disagree with Ralph. Later that we have a tremendous problem with the non-voting that we have but I I think his analysis of it is naive to break through the systemic demobilization of non-voters requires institution and painful pains taking Grassroots efforts and it requires institutionalizing opposition in the people in the political system. Not simply giving it a place to Simply Express itself. We need to to systematically build parties from the Grassroots up or organization from the Grassroots up. I meant to actually say earlier when Cynthia asked what can we do? I mean, it's not that question needs to go beyond. How can we vote? We need to be taking to the streets. We need to be supporting unions. We need to be engaging in Acts of protest. We need to find places other than the electoral system also to mount opposition. We need to go on strike the way the grocery workers are doing in California. We need to find other Our political our party system is set up to paralyze our agency and there's nothing more paralyzing than having to vote against rather than vote for we accept this, you know, everyone who's called is calling with such a tone of resignation, which is such an ugly thing for a country that thinks of itself as Democratic (00:24:08) Cokie Roberts was making the argument this morning though. That although she said, you know, I have no - she said I have no data to support this but it was her sense political commentator for NPR and ABC her sense that the country is so big so diverse that if you have as a practical matter more than two big 10th political parties, really the there there would be a genuine problem danger that the country would just Splinter and fall apart ultimately because we were not a small contiguous Little Country like Europe or something that can accommodate a whole bunch of little Parliamentary parties. What would you think about that? (00:24:52) Well, I'm glad you mentioned that because I heard it and it infuriated really hoping you'd call me so I could come on the show and talk about that that again is a long-standing American Myth that you know, it goes back to the Federalist Papers that we are so diverse and so fragmented that we are in danger of spinning apart, you know, we are you know, if you if you gave everyone all of the choices that would actually begin to represent the range of ideologies that exists in this country. We would be ungovernable. The fact is if you read party scholarship and if you consult your own experience what happens in a two-party system is you can call it stability if you want to give it a nice name, but it's so it's still tough occation the two parties Chase each other towards what they perceive to be the center. It's not the actual ideological center. It's towards what they perceive to be the center they chase each other towards that. You're and they get stuck there and for about a hundred years in this country third political parties were able to provoke what we call realigning moments political partisan realignments. And what they did was the third party actually organized showed the existence of an organized constituency, that would be attractive for one of the two parties to reach out and capture and because they could see it strategically as oh a voting margin. It's out there. It's organized. It's real it's palpable will move there the two parties do not move of their own accord. They move toward each other of their own accord. They do not move for innovation of their own accord. This is not a stable place. This is a frightening Lee stuck place whose institutions give very little room for the kind of dissent that could promote political (00:26:46) creativity. We're talking to shower with Lisa dish. Teachers are political science at the University of Minnesota. She's the author of a book titled the tyranny of the two-party system. She's come by today to talk about Ralph Nader's announcement that he is running for president again this year this time as an independent rather than the Green Party candidate for president as was the case in 2000. If you'd like to join our conversation, all of our phone lines are busy, but jot down the number tries to in a couple of minutes, six, five one two, two seven six thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight. You can also send in your question online go to our website, Minnesota Public Radio dot org and click on send a question and we'll get to more of your questions here in a couple minutes to get you to contribute to Minnesota Public Radio. We often appeal to your intellect. Of course, sometimes we just appeal to your emotions make your contribution now and you could win a 42 inch plasma TV monitor. It's a Fujitsu plasma Vision slim screen courtesy of HiFi Sound providing solutions to complex choices in audio and video systems. And you'll help us reach the fund Drive goal that much sooner. Don't wait the drawing ends Friday jointed Minnesota Public Radio dot-org. There's no contribution necessary to enter its catch up on some headlines here Stephen John Stephen. Thank you. Gary officials in Washington. Say the Army had has decided to cancel its multibillion-dollar Comanche helicopter program. The cancellation is one of the largest in the Army's history about eight billion dollars had already been invested in the program. Some extra protection is on the way for Americans in Haiti Pentagon sources say a team of 50 Marines is heading to Haiti to protect the US Embassy and diplomats the move comes in the face of a growing Rebel Uprising. The rebels are threatening to attack the capital United Nations. Envoy says quick progress could be made on creating a new Iraq e-government if the work starts right away in a report released today, the envoy says elections for a new government would be possible by the end of the year if preparation start immediately Federal officials. Say a bird flu strain found in, Texas. Highly contagious among Birds but poses a low risk of sickening people. The US Department of Agriculture also said the disease is not related to The Deadly variety found in Asia all 6600 birds at a farm where the first case turned up last week have been killed and official of the for the Center for Disease Control and prevention said they are monitoring for any cases of the flu strain in people so far. None have been found police. Say a forgery ring that has cashed $50,000 in worthless checks in the Duluth superior area is unraveling the police chief in Superior says six people have been arrested in four vehicles brought broad with worthless checks have been located University of Minnesota officials present their vision for a new on Campus Sports Stadium to a senate committee today some a state lawmakers may be ready to chip in to clean up. They suggested site and possibly build roads 27 players begin workouts today at the Lee County Sports complex in Fort Myers, Florida pitchers and catchers reported to the twins spring. Meaning Camp yesterday mostly cloudy skies for Minnesota today scattered light snow showers in the north highs from the upper 20s to the upper 30s currently in the Twin Cities cloudy and a 34 degrees Gary. That's the latest. All right. Thanks Stephen 26 minutes before twelve over the noon hour. We're going to hear today from former President. Jimmy Carter who was in Northfield over the weekend to speak at the Nobel Peace Prize Forum talking about what he perceives as America's lack of interest in what's going on around the world and why that is not a good thing. We'll hear from the former president over the noon hour. This hour were talking about Ralph Nader who wants to run for president is running for president this year. He announced over the weekend that he is running as an independent candidate this year. Lisa dish is our guest. She teaches political science at the University of Minnesota on the line right now is Camp Gordon former green party chair and Minnesota Public Radio green party political analyst morning cam. Good morning, Gary. Were you surprised that Ralph Nader? Hat in the ring. Oh, I'm not too surprised. It's certainly been talking about it for a long time and he bet had an exploratory committee up and running for several months. So what are you hearing from greens and Minnesota? Are they pleased generally that he's decided to run not as a green Party candidate in my dad, but as an independent, oh, I think greens are mixed about the about it. I think there were a lot of greens would hope that he would run for the green party ticket, and I know that there's at least some motivation across the country to still try to draft him to run as a green. I think there are the greens that were hoping that he wouldn't run at all and I certainly think they were greens eager to see the green party and endorse a candidate in Milwaukee and June there was one of our listeners a sent in a question or supposition being that the reason Ralph Nader chose not to run as a green Party candidate this year. Was because a decision on a presidential candidate won't be made until this summer. Is that true? I'd heard he talked about that. Yes. I think there was also some division about how hard to run a campaign this year and perhaps that went into whoops. I had a little static there. That's all right. That's your phone or mine. Well, let's hope it's yours. Okay. Well cam we're going to 44 listener sake let you go here, but very briefly is is this going to have much impact in Minnesota and nationally do you think on in terms of who wins and November? I don't know I think certainly would have had a larger impact if well-fed been running with the green party organization. I think that it's his campaigns going to offer without all the organization in the backing that the grains can bring to the race. So I don't think it'll have a whole lot of impact there. I do think it will bring him an important message that will be left out of the campaign though as well. I think that there's things that will go on spoken with the two parties. I think that the greens believe that we need a lot of work done in this country that we can and we deserve a universal health care for example, living wages for workers across the country and that we need to invest in a more peaceful world and not continue this Solving our problems do Warren violence and I think that we should celebrate diversity in our politics to and that's one point that I want to make before I get cut off is that it's having more people run and having more political parties actually will broaden our debate will bring new ideas into the into the form and we have to figure out a way to structure our democratic system so that it Fosters participation and inclusiveness and and I hope that we can keep doing that and I know that Lisa dish and others are certainly have a lot of great ideas about how to bring more parties into the picture here and I hope we can do that in the future. Thanks a lot. Cam preciate it. Hey, welcome. Sorry about the phone. Also. No problem cam Garden former chair of the green party here in the state of Minnesota. And of course, you've heard him frequently here on Minnesota Public Radio. He has served as our green party political analyst Lisa dish can Ralph Nader raisin? Money to effectively get his message out because although people may decry the role of money. It's pretty essential to be able to get some ads up and travel around so on so forth. (00:34:26) That's a good question. I think that remains to be seen I think cams point is absolutely insightful that that's one of the things that Ralph Nader could get from running on a party line and he would have that party support in the party is one way of raising money rather than needing to find concentrated support of large cash. I mean, it's really nice for John Kerry that he can Finance his own campaign with six million dollars of his own private Fortune. But Ralph Nader's not going to be able to do that and while the Democrats continue to run candidates who are wealthy and can self-financed. We aren't going to have a critique of a political system that enforces that kind of discipline on political (00:35:08) competition. All right. Let's get back to the phones here Ashley your comments. Yes, thank you for having me on the air. I really wanted to comment on how disappointed I was this weekend hearing the Nader was going to be running for president because I don't necessarily believe the idea that he took votes away from the Democrats when when the elections happened in 2000. But I also think that it's ridiculous for him to think that this time around that he's going to be taking the votes from the Republicans. I think that because he ran as a green Party candidate which in many people's minds seems like it's something that's even further left than the Democrats that I think it's just ridiculous to believe that people who would have voted Republican in the last election would just all of a sudden vote for someone who is so aligned with the green party and it's just disappointing that he steps in right after the Democratic primaries are getting started to bring his views up and I side with the green party most of the time in my beliefs and I agree with mater that we need to focus more on the Grassroots democracy and fixing the problems that we have in the two-party system. But I also believe that there's a place and a time for everything and I think that the place and the time for NATO right now is in focusing on that Grassroots democracy and making change on different levels as opposed to entering a presidential election that is inevitably going to be type as the polls are already saying. Alright. Thanks Ashley. Thanks. Let me follow up Lisa dish with an online question from Eric who notes. He's in Minneapolis. He says there are more than three parties on the presidential ballot socialist reform etcetera. Why is nater singled out as a spoiler? (00:37:05) Probably because the assumption is that Nader because of his name recognition and because of his own network of supporters will be the most viable of any of those parties and that those parties may get somewhere between one and two percent of the vote if that but that nature has the potential to pull more given that he had. This is his third time running and has networks of support. (00:37:30) Now as I understand it Ralph Nader has made a pledge to the Democrats that he won't criticize the Democratic nominee, but will focus all of his attention on President Bush unless the Democrats choose to criticize him in some way. Is it is that well, what do you make of (00:37:48) that? Well, I actually think that's a fairly ethical thing to say because what he's saying is I'm not going to run a negative campaign. I'm going to (00:37:55) run it can be pretty negative towards George Bush is (00:37:57) going to mount opposition against George Bush. Well, it's well, I mean, I think what he's trying I'm to say he's trying in his own way to say I'm going to try to fight this system which puts me in the structural position of being an opposition against a progressive of splitting the progressive vote. And he's trying to say we're going to run a to barreled campaign against the president. I mean, it's a peculiar thing to imagine that you could do because it completely ignores the structure within which he's working which is one in which he cannot help but compete with the about the nominated Democratic candidate and is can mentioned there are many voting systems that could alleviate this problem. One of the most promising right now is instant runoff voting which would enable progressives to make Ralph Nader their first choice and in the very likely event that no candidate on the first count of the ballots would receive more than 50% of the vote those those people who chose a candidate who was not one of the top two contenders would have their second choice. Vote count in other words their native vote would not be taking away from someone who could potentially win the election it would be registering their their place in the ideological Spectrum much more precisely. So there is a it's called instant run off because you don't actually have to have a second election which raises all kinds of issues and difficulties, but there's a transfer in a recount kind of the voting. (00:39:32) Do you see that being adopted anytime soon? He'll flip well, let me ask you this could States one-by-one adopt that for federal elections or if you were going to use that in a federal election. Would you have to do that on a national (00:39:45) basis? I think states can adopt it one by one, but I'm actually not honestly, I'm not sure but that I didn't think about that before I came in States ought to adopt it for as many certainly as many Statewide elections as possible simply to set the example that something like that can work. The states are supposed to be Laboratories of innovation and that would be one place would be One reform that we could work for to alleviate the Electoral democracy Gap, you know, the problem with Ralph Nader's argument about the Democracy Gap is that it is a part of our institutional structure and he hasn't done enough to change that institutional structure to be working within it (00:40:27) Corey your question, please good morning. Thanks for the topic. I find that there is a presidential candidate who is already running for the Democratic party who I feel is very close and it's platform to Mater and that's Dennis kucinich earlier on I heard you mentioned that a lot of the progressives who follow nater don't really have an institution to follow and yet kucinich has well, the Democratic party doesn't necessarily push them to the Forefront right now. He's well established and he has that institution and I'm wondering if you feel that by increasing the number of parties rather than increasing the type of diversity within the two parties the progressive specifically but more people can get real representation because although Dennis is out there. He hasn't been getting a lot of representation. That's partially immediate question, but I'm interested in what your viewer thinks about trying to diversify the two parties. More evenly for already splitting it too many more parties. (00:41:38) It's very difficult to reform the two major parties from within because as we saw in this primary season, although Howard Dean provided an important Counterpoint to Republican policy on on one particular area, which is foreign policy. He rose to the front of the primary pack in an extraordinarily conventional way, which was by raising an amount of money that Drew media to him granted. He raised that money in small contributions and through an Innovative use of the internet, which is very smart in the wake of campaign Finance reform, but he came to attention in the most conventional way and Dennis kucinich has been overlooked though. He is obviously the most leftward most Progressive Voice or he's what what I would as you put it with green voters could see as representing them. He's been marginalized in the campaign because He in fact did not succeed in all of the conventional proofs that you have to offer of your viability as a candidate. So the difficulty with reforming the parties from within is that the candidates who can test for the primary are judged on very conventional standards electorate, you know election ability and (00:42:55) money reasonable standard to bring to bear though if you're trying to win an election, (00:42:59) isn't it? It's a reasonable standard as long as you think that the system that we have. Sets up the kinds of proofs that would select for the kinds of candidates that we want and the system that we have six selects for candidates who do not really represent much opposition. It selects for candidates who play the status quo. I mean, what do we have in John Kerry, you know, we have someone who's happy to take lobbyist contributions who voted for part of an important part on investor lawsuits of gingrich's contract with America he cast a yes vote on a rock and on the Patriot Act and he's a Vietnam war hero. He's not a nun admirable man, but I wouldn't say that he stands very far to the left the mainstream. So progressives are not represented by John Kerry and the (00:43:52) argument isn't that the way I'm sorry to interrupt but isn't that the way politics are supposed to work in the in the sense that it for example in the Democratic party you had candidates from Dennis kucinich all the way over to whoever you want. Put on the other side Joe Lieberman the people who you know went to the caucuses in Iowa voted in New Hampshire. The other states had a choice to make and they chose kind of the middle-of-the-road guy. Isn't that what's supposed to happen? (00:44:24) Well again, I I can't see what's happening as a genuine choice in a system. That is so driven by money as ours is and in a system where so much where the where the established parties hold so much control about how our votes can be interpreted right now. It takes money to succeed. I don't think that's a good qualifying Criterion. And at this point if we want to think about democracy gaps in the way that the system is set up to produce what looks like choice, but in fact isn't we should be thinking about redistricting and we're in fact the science of drawing District Lines has gotten so precise that the two major parties collude and fight a combination of both to figure out to decide how our votes will count. Even before we have cast them. It looks like we're voting it. Like we're making a choice, but in fact, we are playing out the inevitable Logics of a system that does not allow us to say no. So those of us who would like to say no to the Democratic party. We would like a less mainstream candidate. Thank you very much are not going to be permitted to say that in a way that has a powerful effect of changing the circumstance that we find ourselves in if we really decide to say no if we decide not to vote if we vote green if we vote for Ralph Nader, we will have more of George Bush and if we don't have more of George Bush will have John Kerry who may not be that much different than more of the same Rick your (00:46:03) comment, please. Yes, thank you and good morning morning. My initial question initially answered way long time ago went to your myth of the third party being a spoiler suppose. We contend that more but now that Ralph Nader's moved away from the greens and he's put himself up as a personality. Could you comment on how the difference is when someone your start to look at a person themselves instead of the the party that the part of example, you know out of the democratic party there was six seven eight viable candidates are supposedly viable and yet as it's come down to one or two, they still have the backing of the party the platform the planks and so on that they would represent. There's no and when Mater stepped out of it, he's you're looking pretty much just that the personality and that to me conjures up some pretty pretty negative things in political history when you're looking at the person. Okay, (00:47:04) I certainly would agree with you that the personalization of politics is a problem. But I do think in fact that in in running a highly personalized campaign Ralph Nader is merely aping exactly what the major parties do and that is an effect of the big tent parties that Cokie Roberts told us this morning that you like so much to be Big tent you can't have a very precise platform. You can't have very clear principles and you tend to sell your candidates on who they are. And certainly George Bush was a master of that. He ran on being a genial man who would be a compassionate conservative and I think anyone who looks at any of the major policies that he has pushed through the Congress couldn't possibly imagine him to be a compassionate conservative, but that was his personality. That was his self presentation. The Democratic candidates are doing very much the same thing. I mean there is little substance. (00:47:58) We have an online comment from a person who identifies himself or herself as a dfl party chair in central Minnesota, and he or she says nater for president. He wants to help us survive the effects of NAFTA. He really supports labor and respects Family Farms. I feel Democrats don't care anymore. And this is from a person who identifies himself as a dfl party chair. It sounds like at least for this person Nader's really tapped into something here and right on Ralph. (00:48:33) Yeah, and I mean no question Mater Mater can tap into that but can he make it politically effective and you know, just, you know, these collars and writers in our are pleading with American politics to give them something other than an ultimatum. And again, you would Define you would (00:48:54) Define his ability to be effective not necessarily is winning in November. Correct. (00:49:00) He doesn't have to win in November. No, that would be a really too high bar to set for a third party candidate, but he needs to build us an institution that can keep returning that can return over more than one election that can mobilize people that can win at the local level that can begin to reshape politics from the ground up that can actually challenge some of the rules that make it. So difficult for this for descent to be organized and expressed those sorts of things would be a very constructive intervention into this process because it's going to be a long time before we really see a candidate who could actually interrupt this to party Monopoly on (00:49:36) politics Rachel your comment, please yes, I thank you for taking my call interesting topic. I guess I feel like it's it is easy enough for for an independent or someone to step right up and say here I am because that that's exactly what Ralph Nader is now attempting to do and what I'd like to see is last time around I think Ralph Nader got a free ride. There was no scrutiny of his of his personal life. There was no scrutiny of really anything about him and how he would how how effective he would be as a as a president and as a someone who represents the public in there have been a number of books written on unwrapped nature and how well known or how well-written they are. I really can't comment on but but they're there are some Why Ralph Nader is not the knight in shining armor who represents exactly what the progressives are looking for. All right. So I just maybe it's a little bit off the topic of what you're talking about. But maybe it shouldn't be too just too easy for someone to jump in and say here I am just put me right on the ballot. Okay. Thanks Rachel. Yep. Thank you. What about that? Is it now granted? There are some significant ballot access questions that we talked about earlier, but is it too easy for people to run for president? (00:51:24) Nope, it's not it's certainly not too easy to get on the ballot and it's certainly not too easy to get the attention of the media and citizens and it's certainly not too easy to build a following because as an opposition party, you are usually having to re qualify for the ballot every time around every electoral cycle every two years. If we force the major parties to go through that exercise and to mobilize the kind of support that it takes to gather signatures to put yourself on the ballot. They wouldn't be able to do it not with the kind of apathy and lack of affirmative commitment that we have two political parties in this country. They wouldn't be able to do it. (00:51:59) So I'm wondering about the debates that presumably will be held this fall with the presidential candidates should a person like Ralph Nader be included in those debates. (00:52:13) Yes, depending on how many states he manages to be managers qualify. And I mean this is always a big dilemma because you cannot in as a matter of fact many more people run for president than we realize and it would be utterly unwieldy to have thousands. Yeah in which we included them all that would be that would be absurd and yet we tend to draw the lines too narrowly draw the parameters to closely around who we will in fact have participate in the debates and I think one of the things that I'm seeing citizen say about this primary contest among the Democrats is that it has been tremendously liberating to hear the range of views among Democrats in the debates that we've had and citizens really do want someone to voice their issues and pose difficult questions of candidates so that they can't have these so that there is there are points and counterpoints articulated in in in the political dialogue. So people do want more positions represented as cam was saying we do need to allow for Greater diversity of views rather than having, you know, two candidates argue over how we're going to privatize Social Security, you know, we need to have someone talking about expanding the social welfare. Net not how you know, not whether and how quickly to narrow it. These are What opposition candidates give us. So yes if Ralph Nader can show can meet some viability standards and I honestly don't know what those are because those are really contested right now. We have been arguing for about since Ross Perot over what it ought to take. You know, what makes someone a credible voice for the opposition (00:53:49) not a lot of time left, but when all is said and done here number one, do you think that Ralph Nader's going to end up as the candidate of the green party that comes this summer they're going to say, okay, let's get by and Ralph. (00:53:59) I don't know. It was really hard from what camp said. It sounds like they're very divided. I would much rather have Ralph Nader running on a party line and I would love to be able to cast a vote for a green party in this election because I frankly don't think the major parties are simply entitled to my vote and I don't think That I'm too smart to be Fooled Again by Nader. I think I'm too smart to be Fooled Again by a Democratic party that doesn't present me with someone who is truly speaking about the things that are (00:54:23) unsaid and for all of your Progressive Fen friends who would say Lisa dish if you did that you'd be electing George Bush you'd be responsible for George Bush Republicans would chair Democrats with boo. How would you answer (00:54:37) I would say that sometimes it takes a crisis to provoke radical change and we very much need radical change in this country. (00:54:46) Well, thanks for coming in today. Appreciate it. Thank you. Interesting subject Lisa dish. It was our guest today. She teaches political science at the University of Minnesota. She's written a well-respected book titled the tyranny of the two-party system tracing the history of third party politics in Minnesota are in the nation over time. Of course joining us this hour to talk about Ralph Nader's decision to run for president again this year this time as an independent rather than the green. Candidate we're going to break for some headlines. And when we come back, we're going to hear from former President Jimmy Carter. He was at st. Olaf in Northfield over the weekend to participate in the Nobel Peace Prize Forum talking about America's role in the world and our apparent lack of interest in that role in the world will get to that right after (00:55:33) headlines programming is supported by AT&T now offering choices and local phone service with one right USA. You can find out more by calling 802 eight eight forty to fifty-five or on the web at att.com. (00:55:47) This is Minnesota Public Radio. (00:55:49) Whether on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by CenterPoint Energy. Mini Gasko bringing efficient clean-burning natural gas to more than 700,000 Minnesota customers (00:56:00) whether for the Twin City area Cloudy Skies the rest of this afternoon with a high near 40 degrees right now. It's in the mid-30s 34 degrees with cloudy sky and not a whole lot of for changes forecast for the next few days Cloudy Skies tonight fog will develop again, like last night overnight low near 25 degrees tomorrow kind of a re-run of today cloudy Sky fairly dense fog in the morning with a higher on 35 by Wednesday little bit to at least the Sun Will Come Out supposed to be sunny on Wednesday with a high near 35 and Thursday Sunny to partly sunny and again temperature high near 35 degrees your to 91.1 Cana wfm Minneapolis. And st. Paul news headlines coming up next.