(00:00:00) Good afternoon from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Steven John the head of the Metropolitan sports facilities commission says it'll probably be next week before action is taken on a settlement that would keep the Minnesota Twins playing at the dome for another year Bill Lester says commission lawyers are working on a response to a written agreement forwarded to them yesterday by Major League Baseball under the settlement the commission would drop a lawsuit against the twins in Major League Baseball in return for guarantee that the twins would play in the Metrodome at least through 2003 federal prison officials say an ailing Egyptian cleric convicted of plotting to blow up. The World Trade Center is being held in a Colorado following a four-year stay in Rochester, Minnesota Public Radio, Zarin Galva Lee has (00:00:39) more Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman is now prisoner at the US penitentiary in Florence, Colorado. His location had been kept secret after it was moved from Rochester's Federal Medical Facility back in April Abdul Rahman was convicted and given a life sentence in 1995 under conspiracy charges. He's widely considered to have links to the Al Qaeda terrorist Network. Last month for people were indicted on terrorism charges for passing messages to and from Abdul Rahman about the activities of his extreme Islamic organization. The indictments include his lawyer Aaron globally, Minnesota Public Radio, Rochester (00:01:14) ground was broken this morning for the new Breezy Point Elementary School East of Pequot Lakes and an addition to the existing High School in Pequot Lakes the ground breakings Mark the beginning of work on 20 million dollars worth of projects approved by School District voters last fall students could be in the new facilities by fall of 2003 partly to mostly sunny breezy and warm a wind advisory for the Northwest today. It's currently 88 degrees in Morris and Moose Lake International Falls at 81 look for highs in the upper 80s for the Twin Cities this afternoon right now, mostly sunny and 80 in Minneapolis. St. Paul that's news from NPR (00:01:50) programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by T Source offering more than 200 of the world's finest loose leaf teas in st. Paul or on the web at TC. Start calm (00:02:01) it's six minutes now past (00:02:02) 12. (00:02:06) And good afternoon. Welcome back to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten. This are a midday voices of Minnesota interviews with to minnesotans who have been trying to help the poor people of the world. Tony Kozlowski is the former head of the minnesota-based American Refugee committee will be hearing about his new job with a Swiss humanitarian agency. Meanwhile, dr. Juliet for no lives in Minneapolis, and she is a board member of Doctors Without Borders USA. She led that group's first aid mission to Afghanistan both have very interesting stories to tell and here's Minnesota public. Radio's Danielson. Dr. Juliet for noses in 1979 The Doctors Without Borders team members dressed as locals loaded a packed train of donkeys with medicine and hid money in their underwears. They slipped across the border to start their work in Afghanistan. (00:03:06) We had to be very careful to hide ourselves from the Pakistani army and the border militias to be able to enter (00:03:14) Afghanistan. Tony kozlowski's new job includes finding homes for the hundreds of thousands of children in African nations left homeless because their parents are victims of AIDS the normal mechanisms to cope with orphans are no longer there because the people in the prime of Life have disappeared from these communities stay with us this hour for our voices of Minnesota interviews with Tony Kozlowski. And dr. Juliet for no as they talked about their humanitarian work. For nearly 10 years from 1979 to 1988 when Doctors Without Borders was just getting started. Dr. Juliet for note directed the work of hundreds of international volunteers and Afghan residents these days for no lives in Minneapolis. She works for the University of Minnesota School of Dentistry. She's on the board of directors of Doctors Without Borders USA for no is a native of Paris France. However, she spent a good share of her youth living in Afghanistan. She says her father reacted to his midlife crisis in 1965 by moving the family to Afghanistan where he began a second career in development and humanitarian (00:04:32) work. Well it was exciting for me. I was 10 I moved to Afghanistan and completely different lifestyle and actually a big opening on on the world and on the the freedom of interaction with the a bigger world It was still one of the poorest country in the world, but it was poor but not miserable. It was relatively peaceful. And the former King with right now going back to Kabul was at that time ruling. (00:05:08) So what was your life like where you in a french-speaking or an English-speaking school for children, or were you with the other kids of Afghanistan and (00:05:16) Kabul? I was home-schooled. And my friends where are from all nationalities and mostly Afghans. How long did this last this lasted for over eight years. (00:05:30) So you had an incredible grounding in Afghanistan a country you would return to what about how much (00:05:36) later I came back very shortly after I graduated as a dental and oral surgeon from the French University in 79. Just after the Russian invasion. Why did you want to go back? I was not really looking to go back I was stunned with what was going on very felt really connected to the the people and the suffering of the people there. I had lifelong friends and it was my backyard. Did they ask you to come back some of your friends? It's Doctors Without Borders. It was still a nascent organization and they were looking for someone who knew the language and the country to evaluate the needs in the refugee camps thousands and hundreds of thousands of refugees. We're flowing into Pakistan. The country was sealed the Soviet Army didn't want to have any Witnesses or foreign presence in Kabul in any forms. And so the UN Agency for refugees contacted Doctors Without Borders. Msf to make a and I will refer to msf. Instead of this long translation of midseason Frontier now on contacted. Msf to evaluate the needs of the refugees along the border and we quickly realized that all of these were tribal zones where the Pakistani government had really not not no control. It was a highly political the aid could be diverted in many ways. So we decided to go inside (00:07:24) Afghanistan. However, the Border was sealed either Pakistani nor Afghan authorities were allowing people in for know and her team decided to sneak across the border. She says it was a logistical nightmare. They made the trip on foot with money stashed in their clothing (00:07:41) tens of thousands of dollar banknotes. And our Underpants and buying medicines locally or in India generic drugs packing all of that in small Parcels of about 40 pounds each to be loaded on donkeys and horses and they were it was being snug against the Border. We had to be very careful to hide ourselves from the Pakistani army and the bottom Alicia's to be able to enter Afghanistan's once we were in Afghanistan. There was this incredible sense of Freedom. Actually, we didn't have to hide ourselves except we had to be careful to be aware from the roads where the Russian the Red Army was petroleum and In some areas travel at night because of the surveillance flights the helicopter attacks and mega decks 95% of Afghanistan was not under the occupation of the Red Army and so the villages and the regions were run in a pretty autonomous way and the local leaders were starving for any kind of attention. They were immediately extremely Keen in understanding that beyond desistance that we could bring on the Practical basis to humanitarian assistance to the health care. We could provide to their to the sick and the wounded that could not otherwise access to any health care. There was an incredible value in having witnesses to what was going on. Were you in Disguise were you in costume? We're we're in Disguise as we were up by crossing the border and then We're we're dressed like the locals in Afghanistan from a distance people couldn't tell that we're we're not Afghans but up close it was so our dress code was also a way to show respect for the local customs and to be seen as being decent decently dressed. (00:09:57) You're on the ground in Afghanistan trying to assess needs and carry out your work (00:10:03) at least once maybe twice you were abducted by whom all various parties or factions of the Afghan Rebel groups. It was a constant education to explain to them what you may need to hire an action (00:10:21) is because they thought you were what what what did they think you were doing? (00:10:25) Well, why would someone a woman especially come from and people other people? Doctors nurses that heaving peaceful which nation Tech risk to come in their country. That is at War poor. There must be some hidden purpose there. So what would be the hidden purpose could be political could be religious could be spying. I mean, they have all these questions (00:10:58) they were eventually satisfied with your (00:11:00) explanations. They were and we had we were demonstrating all the time and sticking to those place it principles and we had to be extremely Vigilant that whatever place we chose to work our interlocutors the leaders. We were associating with the way. We were traveling from place a to place B what we were doing and how we were doing it was impartial all the time impartial and always Focused on the most vulnerable people the most vulnerable victims and regardless of their ethnic group of political affiliation that it did not matter what happened during these abductions. Did they just come (00:11:47) into your area wherever you were working grab you drag you off beat you up and then proceed to question your what happened? (00:11:54) Well personally, I was not as big Fosse, so it's really easy for me to What did you say to make my points? Actually I was held for three weeks in the mountains by radical Islamic group to his be slaw me right now. It's known as his base La me and there were hoping to trade me against weapons from the French government's and you know explain to them that we're not I was not a French government in void that French government had absolutely no responsibility or interest in having me there or out of there that it was a entirely private and personal mission that I was doing there and that was backed and supported by civilians in Europe and in France mostly and they wouldn't get anything out of me. They would have to feed me forever, but that and I would be a pest to them and for About two three weeks. It was like a god well Mutual understanding that developed. It was always respectful. I was always treated as a guest you were not tortured. You were not beat not only not beaten and tortured but I was given the best food of the village and the best mattress to to stay and the best of everything the debate was was serious, you know, they really were inquisitive about whether we were missionaries if we were going to Papa get another religion or whatever and offer all the time. They did they started understanding these principles of impartiality of neutrality of humanity, too often humanitarian principles or charity in those countries are just a veil to hide some other political goals or political in action as well. That's why it makes people suspicious that there is nothing such as impartial humanitarian Aid that there must be something there? It's fishy. What did your family think about your work up (00:14:15) your family and (00:14:15) friends you were in great danger. What did they think of what you were doing? My father had the time was working in Indonesia. My mother was going back and forth between friends and Indonesia and they were supportive actually, you know being a volunteer is actually my parents were supporting me financially they were worried, but they never had me carry that (00:14:45) guilt. Were you always a pretty independent where you independent-minded as a kid? And as a result, it came naturally as an (00:14:52) adult. No, I was not I was a very what we call an easy kid, but I had very independent-minded parents who I think I could nice themself in what I was doing and how I was doing with an independence of mind but in a very gentle non aggressive fashion made of our programs were so far in Afghanistan that we had to walk 35 days crossing the coach and very difficult rugged situations with very scarce food than and dangerous. But all the time when I was meeting groups of refugees are people walking to Pakistan going the other way would write letters that were being mailed from Pakistan and would end up to my parents that's you know, the carriers and actually that's how me and my teams were communicating in Afghanistan as (00:15:52) well. I hope somebody saved those letters they'll be First book perhaps that you'll write (00:15:56) a oh, my mom says everything she's a she could be an archivist in the library. (00:16:05) You're listening to a voice is of Minnesota interview on Minnesota Public Radio with dr. Juliet for no. She led teams of Doctors Without Borders Volunteers in Afghanistan for nearly 10 years when the country was at war with the former Soviet Union. For no and other Doctors Without Borders volunteers reported to the outside world what the Soviet military was doing in Afghanistan, they described attacks on civilian populations, including the use of anti-personnel bombs, which maimed and killed children the reports cause the Soviets for no says to begin a defamation campaign. They labeled her a drug dealer for noses. The defamation campaign was evidence The Doctors Without Borders work was getting in the way of the Red Army by the mid-1980s. Their work was complicated by Afghanistan's changing political landscape young men from Saudi Arabia began appearing in the country preaching a radical version of Islam. The abductions continued kidnappers took a team of 10 Doctors Without Borders volunteers 150 Afghan workers and 150 horses carrying medicine for no says she negotiated for the release of the workers and noticed the presence of a man. She later realized was Osama bin (00:17:22) Laden. I went right to the leader who was the head of that political party with commanders in the field had abducted my my team and was there sitting with him and next to him was this Saudi tall with big eyes sweet face, and it's only after that I realized it was Bin Laden because three of his invoice were part of the group that abducted my team. (00:17:57) This man who has now become this Pariah was sitting in on this negotiation session with you for you to get the release of your team. (00:18:06) It was not negotiating with me and he never spoke Farsi was picking another hobby call the time with the Afghan but it could very well understand what was going on, but he was pretending to never address me or never look at me. (00:18:19) How did you win the release of your team? (00:18:22) Actually, I think there are a number of things that happened. I kept it real quiet for a month. So there was no I didn't get out of in a bigger debate. I used all the time. I use the most fundamental one of the most fundamental tenets of Islam, which is Hospitality hospitality is one of the five Commandments I love the way that the Muslims defined themselves and in Afghanistan. It's such in the fiber of the people the hospitality. The law of is patella T, uo protection and Hospitality even to your worst enemy if he's in your home. So you had to be nice to these people out. You can stab him but when it is in your home, uom, protection and hospitality and So based on that I was saying not in love only we're not your enemies were helping your people. You will working to bring unconditional support for the civilians treating the women and the children and the elderly is and vaccinating against missile so that the kids don't die like flies in the winter with during the middle epidemics and malaria epidemics and the TB that is rampant and the kids that were dying from infection because they had picked up. In the fields booby-trapped teeny bombs Etc. And so they knew we were doing that and I said not only we're not addressing you but we are helping your people and where we host so you have duties to modest and so I kind of turn it around using their own principles and know and the whole new rules and their own a custom my loss or so. Did you carry a weapon for self-protection never never touched one and never even felt a need my best protection now best protection was to not be armed. What would happen if you were armed? Well, we could. Be perceived as a threat. Any run-ins with the Red (00:20:34) Army, I think you said earlier they were essentially an only five percent of the country that the rest of the country was somewhat free (00:20:40) of them. Yes, there were in control on the roads when they were on the roads with their convoys In Between the Wheels of their tanks and of the air, But that's all so the re square minefields booby-trapped or anti-personnel mines on the way ambushers by troops and bombing or attacks from helicopters. Mostly because the mix not being not very precise in their targeting Russian convoys and troops have ambushed. Our team's people were killed people were killed not expatriates, but Afghan staff was killed four of my hospital as were brought down to ashes in the first one and half year of our programs there fortunately, they had had recognizance flights the day before and the Afghans with whom we worked since the danger and decided to evacuate the hospital and the being patience (00:21:55) now through all of this the stress on your patients the people who you were serving and the stress on your staff and you must have been great. Were there moments of Despair when you thought I may have to pack it in. I may have to beat a hasty Retreat to Pakistan through the mountain (00:22:12) soon. Yes, I mean there are moments when the danger hits there were ideas crossing my mind thinking why did I put myself in that situation or why would I put any people in that situation and that's why I was one of my highest priority in my work was the security of my team's I was responsible morally responsible for the life of hundreds of Afghans that were working in our programs and expatriates, you know, they didn't choose to be there. The Afghans had chosen to be there. So in many ways, I was even more responsible for the expect great msft me. Birds that are we're going there over nine years. I sent more than 500 doctors and nurses and surgeons lab technicians and other from Europe and they will came back which is I think it's not a miracle. I think it reflects that they were respected as neutral. They were being protected by the civilians. Everybody could see their own interest in protecting them. And also I was spending a huge amount of my time while working time. We're having a network of information to make sure that the road say we're going to take we're safe to double-check informations all the time on the security on the conditions on the the people in the hands of whom they were I had never slept quickly for nine years. I always thought I had it was felt like a mom responsible for 35 children in Side of Kenaston (00:23:58) you left a 1988 your work was done or were you forced to leave? (00:24:01) My work was not done. Actually, it had expanded greatly. I had over 15 Hospitals and Clinics all over Afghanistan and the Russian had we're negotiating and making the steps withdrawal from Afghanistan. And I sense that if I didn't go then when things were looking good. I would never be able to leave when things are difficult and hard so I had to take that was a good time for me to go. Otherwise, I would have spent my whole life there. (00:24:33) Dr. Juliet for no recounting her nearly 10 years in Afghanistan is the head of mission for Doctors Without Borders or msf. The French acronym for the organization. You're listening to voices of Minnesota on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Dan Olson. Juliet for no lives and works in Minneapolis. She says she met her partner a Doctors Without Borders volunteer physician in a Pakistani refugee camp when their volunteer work was over they decided to move to the Midwest. Msf. Or Doctors Without Borders was started in France these days the organization does humanitarian work in 90 countries around the world. It's volunteers and staff number in the thousands. The organization was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1999 for no has been a member of the board of directors of the u.s. Branch of Doctors Without Borders for 11 years. She says this is her last year Doctors Without Borders for no says guards its independence. It does not take government money and does not work with other groups for no says the need for humanitarian assistance around the world is (00:25:41) overwhelming. What do we do is a drop in a bucket or we can do is prove that it's feasible. It's not an end to itself. You know, you many Diane assistance should be a means to restore health and dignity to people and what is dispiriting is that the condition of life is abysmal not because there is a lack of Aid it's because there is not there is a lack of political will to put an end to the conflicts and the manipulation of Civilian populations 222 that are being used and hostages in those conflicts (00:26:27) you pointed out msf does not take sides. But you see yourself as a reporting organization as a set of eyes on the scene. Why is that important you (00:26:35) feel it is important because we have a responsibility to Bringing the assistance and the relief to pain alone will not be enough and that's a concept that became clear after ostrich and World War II that the Red Cross the International Red Cross had been active in the in the camps, but they never were below all had decided to talk about it or we're able to talk about it. So we that's at the end of World War II after the death of 38 million people the Geneva Convention where written by the leaders of a new political leaders and other countries and ratified by most of the countries in the world because they recognized that there was a need in armed conflicts to have impartial independent actors whose Goal, and aim was to protect and and bring relief to the civilians this convention defined the legal terms for what is an act of War. What is the war crime? What is a crime against humanity and it's within that framework that the humanitarian organization are active and it is important that we be impartial but we also need to talk about it because what we find if it's only reported to the political authorities by the time they take action it might take the end of the war. It's very lengthy. So unless we speak out and bring it out in the open to the public to the knowledge of everybody. It won't have any effect. Msf. Apparently (00:28:32) sometimes maybe often declines to work with other organizations instead apparently decided to go It Alone. (00:28:38) On your own work in the field. Why is that well, too often coordination bodies gather non-governmental organizations from many different affiliations with goals and missions that are can be very diverse and there was sources of funding not always clear or when they are clear. They do not respect the neutrality in in partiality when an organization receives more than 90% of its funding from its own government. Well, of course, it's not going to conduct missions in a settings that are controversial or bring a speak out in a freeway about issues that would be contrary to their government goals. Otherwise, they would lose their funding. So that means there are offices closed down. So that's why intellectual Independence comes at the cost of monetary Independence (00:29:43) Juliet for no says the philosophy of humanitarian assistance is being compromised. She says some governments are using the term to describe military assistance to (00:29:53) civilians humanitarian action is as its defined in Geneva Convention is neutral and impartial. So, how can I now me deliver new tall or impartial aid, but they're helping people are helping people and so it is to the it is Aid to populations. It's 82 civilians, but we object to is that it's you it's been labeled as humanitarian Aid to often like in Kosovo or in Yugoslavia armies have engaged by the lack of political power of engage in humanitarian action because they didn't have the guts. Ha the wheel to solve the problem on a political level. (00:30:40) I take it your definition of humanitarian action is help for anyone (00:30:45) it's help to those. Well the most vulnerable regardless of their affiliations. (00:30:53) What will be the outcome do you think I mean, what does msf want to do to try to protect the day the domain of humanitarian work if you (00:31:01) will, what do we want to put take that space of humanity and impartiality? Otherwise those enclaves are going to become political tools and maneuvers of one conflict one side of the conflicts against the other and again, the civilians will be hostages. Syrians are the hostages of these walls since the (00:31:27) 90s. When you speak with your friends and neighbors here in Minnesota about the work you do and what you have seen in your life. What kind of reaction do you get? Do you get a spirit of activism from your neighbors and friends in Minnesota or complacency sense of complacency about the problems of the (00:31:43) world? Well Americans have the very very strong identify themselves very strongly with the principles of Justice fairness equality and yet what is conducted outside of the US in the name of the US interest or in the name of the US companies or in the name of democracy is not fostering there was issues for example pharmaceutical industry treatment of an AIDS patient cost $15,000 a year. So that's not the best use of the money that is given to us and yet it's critical. So for years now. Msf has engaged into a battle. As a totally different angle, which is how to make medicine and health more accessible to patients because the barriers are not only bringing the medicines to them. It's getting the medicines our governments mostly the Swiss government and the American government but some European governments also have been really unhelpful in negotiating agreements to bring the prices of those medicines not only to us, but to the governments who have the most massive population of sick people like South African government Canyon government and those those poor countries so that they can put on the market those drugs at a cheap price and the US government along with the Swiss government have been the most obstructive into the revision of the trade agreements that protect those patterns. Until a not last November the fear of national and tracks epidemics in the u.s. When for postal workers died from Antics the US government demanded that the price of the drugs to treat and tracks be given at the generic price from the pharmaceutical industry at that point. We said well if it's good for for u.s. Citizens, why should that Sam Law would not apply to millions of people that are sick but can't access to the de medicines that exist in Africa and Asia is that that some humans are more equal than others (00:34:14) office holders in the United States are raising a huge controversy over the price of drugs. Do you think that this is the beginning of a breakthrough in that area that will lead to more affordable drugs and overseas. (00:34:28) It is the beginning. Of the Breakthrough a reconsideration of certain Goods like medicines and certain medicines not all of the medicines not necessary for Comfort medicines as not being subjected to the same property rights as others. (00:34:47) Dr. Juliet for no. Thank you so much a pleasure talking with you (00:34:50) my pleasure. (00:34:52) Dr. Juliet for no a member of the board of directors of Doctors Without Borders USA for nearly 10 years from 1979 to 1988. She led the group's medical work in Afghanistan. I spoke with her at her home in Minneapolis. You're listening to voices of Minnesota on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Dan Olson. Donny Kozlowski, led the minnesota-based American Refugee committee for nine years. He helped Arc win High marks for its humanitarian work in Kosovo during and after the war in Yugoslavia Arc under Kozlowski Grew From three million dollars to a 26 million dollar-a-year humanitarian organization. Last year Arc was named one of America's 100 best Charities. Tony Kozlowski is a native of Bridgeport Connecticut after getting a degree at King's College in Pennsylvania and a master's degree from the University of Maryland Kozlowski went to work for the Ford foundation in the North African nation of Tunisia. It was his first job in a developing country. He worked for the office of the United Nations High Commissioner for refugees for 10 years. Then did a 15 years tent for a geneva-based humanitarian organization all that before coming to Minnesota for nearly 10 years. 20 Kozlowski is back in Switzerland. He now works for a family foundation with the Swiss acronym AFX be a good share of FX bees work is helping AIDS orphans. I talked with Tony Kozlowski by telephone from his office in the Swiss city of seal. I just got back from a visit to Uganda and Rwanda where we have two programs. These programs are managed entirely by indigenous staff both medical Psycho Social Workers administrators managers. What we do basically in both countries is focus on AIDS orphans and helping the community cope with AIDS orphans as you probably know these countries have been decimated by AIDS and people in the prime of life. So, The normal Community mechanisms to cope with orphans are no longer there because the proper people in the prime of Life have disappeared from these communities. So what we try to do is through various Community committees that are established by the communities themselves identify families who can actually take orphans into them into their midst and provide those families with income generating activities to be able to support those orphans and at the same time provide the schools with support so that these orphans can go to school. And for the children who don't find such as you describe it foster care situations. What what happens to them? Well, that's the big big problem that we're facing in Africa and increasingly in countries, like India and China when the ravages of AIDS takes its course, we're seeing more and more orphans that are not being provided for they become inevitably Street children in urban centers. For example, former American Refugee committee president. Tony Kozlowski. He left Minnesota last year to take a new job for a swiss-based humanitarian agency with the acronym AFX be a fxb is helping about 5,000 families and AIDS orphans in Rwanda and Uganda. I asked whose house key to talk about where he gets the inspiration for his work after more than 30 years with Terry and agencies, my happiest achievements are being associated with organizations like the American Refugee committee or a fxb today which bring me to face to face with people in really dire circumstances, whether it's following the genocide in Rwanda or whether it's following the ravages of AIDS to see these people and the hope that they still have and the ability that the communities around them have to welcome them and to help them get on with life and to the small extent that we can help really makes me feel at the end of every day that it's worth. It does the word picture come to mind whether it was early on in your career in Tunisia or later on as you were working for unhcr or perhaps in Bosnia with American refugees. Midi of an instance where you felt? Yes, these these dollars in this human effort is really making a difference. Well, I just got back from a trip from Rwanda and Uganda and I think a woman that I met in in Kigali the capital of Rwanda really epitomizes what I'm trying to say and what makes me feel so proud to work with a humanitarian organization. I was meeting with a group of perhaps fifty or sixty women in Kigali just about a week or two ago. These were all AIDS victims who we were supporting through income generating projects and we were talking about their problems and their perceptive of things one woman got up and she said look, I know I have AIDS I know through your Organization that it's possible to live with AIDS and to get on with life. What I really want to do now is tell my neighbors and tell my community that it's possible to do so to get on with life because I have hope and all I want from you is a few little materials to be able to hand out and be able to convince my neighbors who are in the same situation that this is possible and I just think that's fantastic by contrast Tonio what have been some of the moments I zoom there have been some moments which must cause you great soul searching and perhaps even some despair as you look at the money in the human effort that's available and measure it against the scale of what you're facing and it must cause it must cause some great concern. Well, I think the Thing that I think of most in my experience of near despair in the humanitarian field was arriving shortly after the genocide in Rwanda actually in the neighboring country of Zaire at the time now, it's called the Democratic Republic of the Congo with colleagues to try to see what we could do really the situation. There was comparable to to Dante's Inferno where people were really dropping like flies because of Cholera and they were all around us and fortunately Arc is a very very malleable organization and goes to a place not to raise the flags. So to speak and do something that it thinks is necessary, but goes there to find out what really the Problems are and then to try to see whether we have the weather Arc has the capability to respond and fortunately was able to do so in those circumstances at the time. We were really concerned that this situation was getting out of hand fortunately through a coordinated effort by the International Community in which Arc took took part. The cholera epidemic was able to be contained have you faced some personal danger whether it's from people hostile to your work or just a run-of-the-mill public health dangers yourself Contracting some something that you were on hand to try to fight. You know, I consider myself very fortunate. I can count on my hand on the fingers of one hand the times when with Arc we And previous to that we were really faced with danger. I think the last the last time was just just a year ago. In fact in Freetown Sierra Leone where I was visiting our programs which were fantastic programs. In fact, very very much similar to what I'm doing currently because they're the AIDS epidemic in Sierra Leone is very big but as you know in that country there have been tremendous Slaughter and hacking off of hands and feet of the People by the rebels we were confronted with that very thing when people well when my my colleagues and I are staying at our country directors house were in fact rated by a band of five or six of Of these people really at about four o'clock in the morning when we were all sleeping and they came in with guns and machetes and I thought the Moment of Truth had come fortunately, although we were robbed. No one no one was seriously hurt and these people had left but it was quite an experience at moments like that Tony. What what goes through your mind? Oh, what what kinds of thoughts did you have? You know, it's very interesting because when they burst into my room all five of them with their AK-47s and machetes and I was in bed with a with a mosquito net around the bed that they ripped me out of bed. I just said well There's nothing I could do. I just let them do what they they came for and fortunately as I said, they were really not after my life, but basically after money or other valuables. As you travel both for your current work and then as for your previous job at American Refugee committee here in Minnesota. Do you encounter a kind of a growing degree of Interest among governments that you deal with whether it's in Africa or wherever or a kind of continuing denial if you will whether it's HIV/AIDS or other public health issues, you know, it depends again on the government and on the country. There are some countries that are very very open to dealing with problems whether they are Refugee problems or HIV problems and there are other governments that just ignore it to the detriment of their people. In fact, my organization a fxb has developed a petition to get these governments to try to recognize the tremendous problem. We are having an are going to have with AIDS orphans if governments. Do not start addressing this problem and I'd like to invite the listeners to go to our website if x b Dot o-- r-- g-- and sign the petition you can sign it on the web and we already have over 1 million signatures worldwide for this petition for governments to really take action. I think it would be very fitting if we can get a real contingent from Minnesota to do. So. Also you're listening to a voices of Minnesota conversation with Tony kozloski on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Dan Olson for nine years Kozlowski was president of the Minnesota based American Refugee committee now he works for they fxb. I spoke with him recently by telephone from his office in the Swiss city of seal much of FX bees work is aimed at helping children orphaned by AIDS because laski says the HIV/AIDS epidemic is taking a huge toll worldwide. I'm 13 million young people are have been orphaned by AIDS already and it's estimated by us that perhaps this figure can go up to 100 million by the end of this decade Tony on the hiv-aids front. We have all been hearing that Africa is the continent of most deeply affected is that where most of your work is focused? Well, our work is focused in Africa Asia and Latin America. It's true that according to official un statistics that aids has really hit hard in Africa. In fact, most of those statistics say of 40 million people today living with HIV are in Africa, but the fact of the matter is this is a worldwide pandemic and it's spreading like wildfire particularly in Asia and particularly in India and China and no official statistics exist for those two countries. So it could be that the 40 million that I talked about is just the tip of the iceberg Tony. Do you find the size of the pie in terms of money for the broad-based humanitarian work that you've done over your 30 years expanding staying about the same or were actually shrinking it shrunk over the past two decades, unfortunately, both for humanitarian assistance and for development assistance and even though the Bush Administration has Promised to increase our development assistance over the next two or three years we have to as Citizens ensure that our Congress people actually follow up with with that pledge made the United States spends. I assume billions. I don't know the precise amount on humanitarian and development assistance over season yet were told that that is on a per capita basis a rather small number compared to some of the other worlds industrialized countries. Is that still the case or is that changing very much the case, you know in terms of volume of the amount it seems large but on a per capita basis, it's really the smallest of all of the developed countries and the Scandinavians and the and the Dutch are the largest and I realize of course you're living abroad now, but when you were in the it states a I gather there's a certain public sentiment among many Americans that a lot of the overseas foreign aid is is money that ends up in the hands of kleptocrats in secret bank accounts enriching their extended family rather than rather than going to work and helping people What What In fact is is happening to you think, you know, there's still some of that I think is really greatly improved over the last few decades because of the vigilance of intergovernmental organizations un agencies the World Bank, in fact to avoid these things but the best thing of course is to channel funds whether they're for humanitarian Assistance or development assistance through non-governmental organizations through reputable ones like the American Refugee committee or a fxb to ensure that these funds are really used for the purposes for which the The wants to give the money and I can speak for both organizations and and tell you with without the slightest hesitation that the money really goes to the to benefit the people and not the kleptocrats in the three decades as you've been doing this kind of work. What do you draw on when you find yourself looking for that next surge of motivation that you need to keep going? I draw on my wife Pamela and my two sons who are daily Inspirations to me. My my wife works in the has worked in this area in the human rights field. Both of my sons are and non-governmental organizations one as I said in Minnesota at the American field service and the other one currently in Paraguay working for a paraguayan environmental organization, and they give me inspiration on a daily basis Tony Kozlowski. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you, Dan. And it's been a pleasure talking with you and talking with the people of Minnesota. I really miss it. And we want to come back frequently and we want all of our friends to come and visit us here in Switzerland. But of course not all at the same time Tony Kozlowski last year. He left his job at the minnesota-based American Refugee committee and went to work for the Swiss based agency with the acronym A fxb Kozlowski has been involved in humanitarian work for more than 30 years. He spoke from his office in Seal, Switzerland. You've been listening to voices of, Minnesota on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Dan (00:54:16) Olson. (00:54:17) And that does it for our midday program today, by the way, if you missed part of Dan's report is to interviews with Tony kozloski and Juliet for no will be re broadcasting this program at 92 night. And of course it will be available on our website Minnesota Public Radio dot-org tomorrow at 11:00 our meet the candidates series continues. We'll be talking with Republican candidate for Governor. Brian Sullivan. That's an 11 and over the noon hour. We'll hear from Robert Caro author of Master of the Senate another in his series on LBJ Gary eichten here. Thanks for tuning in today (00:54:56) programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by the law firm of Madden tenza protecting the Charities who build our communities on the web at www.chimartialarts.com (00:55:06) Talk of the Nation is next. I'm going to Cunningham.