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[MUSIC PLAYING] GARY EICHTEN: Good morning, and welcome to Midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary Eichten. Glad you could join us. Somali leaders in Minneapolis are accusing six Minneapolis Police officers of murder and say the chief of the Minneapolis Police Department, Robert Olson, should be fired.

The charges grow out of an incident on Sunday when police officers shot and killed a mentally ill Somali man who was carrying a machete in a heavily populated area of South Minneapolis. Police say the man was a threat to them and to bystanders. But Somalis say there was no reason to shoot the man.

The shooting Sunday was the latest in a series of disputes between Somalis and local, state, and federal officials. Tensions have reached the point where some Somalis are claiming that most Somalis are so upset with the situation they may leave Minnesota. Currently, there are an estimated 12,000 to 15,000 Somalis living in the state, one of the largest concentrations of Somalis anywhere in America.

Today, on Midday, we're going to focus on the problems that Somalis say they face in the state. And we'll get to that discussion in just a moment. But first of all, here's Minnesota Public Radio's Art Hughes with the latest on the controversy over the shooting.

ART HUGHES: Representatives of Minneapolis' Somali community say the shooting of Abu Kassim Jeilani is murder and the police officers involved should be prosecuted. Osman Saadi, Director of the Somali Community of Minnesota, says the police responding to the scene in which Jeilani was carrying a machete and a crowbar used excessive force.

OSMAN SAADI: Those officers who have been involved in this shooting should not be reassigned to their jobs. We believe that they are criminals. And they should be treated the way criminals are treated.

ART HUGHES: Police aren't saying how many rounds hit Jeilani, but Somali leaders say there were as many as 15 shots fired. Osman and others point to a string of incidents between law enforcement and Somalis as evidence the police are working against them.

Last fall, federal agents closed down a South Minneapolis Somali money wire service, saying it's a front for terrorists. Late last year, a Somali man died after he was hit in the head while waiting for a bus. The medical examiner initially said the man died of natural causes.

The death was later ruled a homicide. And last summer, Somali leaders complained about the police treatment of a group of Somali men in town for an annual festival and amateur soccer tournament. Somali representatives say the men were doing nothing but waiting for a ride.

Omar Jamal of the Somali Justice Advocacy Center says the police ignored those on the scene who wanted to talk to Jeilani and get him to put down his weapons.

OMAR JAMAL: We are taxpayers. We pay these people to serve and protect us. We pay-- I pay tax, and they tax us. Why? The reason is for us to get protection from them, but we don't want them to kill us. And we don't want the city of Minneapolis to become a slaughterhouse for the immigrants one after another.

ART HUGHES: Friends of Jeilani say he suffered from mental illness that had gotten worse in recent weeks. Minneapolis Police have faced criticisms before about dealing with people with mental illness. Police shot and killed a delusional Barbara Schneider in the summer of 2000 when she confronted them with a knife in her apartment.

Three months later, police shot and killed Alfred Sanders after they say he tried to ram them with his car. Sanders had been acting erratically. A year ago, the department created a critical incident team to deal specifically with mental illness cases. Two CIT officers were called to the scene Sunday minutes after police first contacted Jeilani.

They tried more than once to immobilize him with non-lethal electric shocks from a taser, but failed. Police spokesperson Cindy Montgomery says the five officers on the scene followed proper procedure before resorting to deadly force.

CINDY MONTGOMERY: This was in broad daylight during the day. There were many citizens in the area. You have an individual that's carrying a machete and a crowbar.

And our officers, from what we reviewed, followed policy and procedure in this case by utilizing everything that they have and their training to defuse this situation.

ART HUGHES: Some 30 to 40 Somalis, including Jeilani's widow, met for two hours with Mayor RT Rybak in his office. The mayor says Somalis and others need to wait until all the information is available before reaching conclusions.

RT RYBAK: And I fully understand that this incident to many people is not seen as an isolated incident. Issues of race, issues of mental health, and issues of policing have become connected for some time. And it is important for all of us to recognize that, to the degree that people connect these issues, we are not safe. It's important for us to realize that we'll continue to work on the structural issues that are part of this.

ART HUGHES: About firing the police chief, Rybak says he makes no connection between the police chief's job in this shooting. City council member Dean Zimmerman, who represents the Ward in which the shooting occurred, says he will introduce an ordinance to review the use of guns by police.

DEAN ZIMMERMAN: I just question the need to use this, you know, multiple shots to stop a person who does not have a firearm in their hand. So I don't know what the discussion will lead to. I just know we have to have the discussion. I know we have to change the climate that exists between the police and the community.

ART HUGHES: Six officers at the scene fired their guns, although police aren't saying how many total shots were fired. Somali advocates and an anti-police brutality group are scheduling rallies later this month. Art Hughes, Minnesota Public Radio, Minneapolis.

GARY EICHTEN: Sunday's shooting follows a series of high profile incidents in recent months. The beating to death of that elderly Somali man, and the federal shutdown of several money transfer services last fall, the deportation of 10 Minnesota Somalis last month. And joining us now to talk some more about the problems that Somalis say they've encountered in recent months is Omar Jamal, who you heard in Art's story, Mr. Jamal is the Executive Director of the Somali Justice Advocacy Center.

Also with us is Ahmed Samatar. He is the James Wallace Professor and Dean of International Studies at Macalester College in Saint Paul. And as always, we invite you to join our conversation. If you have a question or a comment about the problems facing Somalis, give us a call here at 651-227-6000, 651-227-6000.

Outside the Twin Cities, 1-800-242-2828, 651-227-6000, or 1-800-242-2828. Gentlemen, thanks for coming over today. Appreciate it.

AHMED SAMATAR: Thank you.

OMAR JAMAL: Thank you.

GARY EICHTEN: Mr. Jamal, let me start with you. You said that Minneapolis is in danger of becoming a slaughterhouse for immigrants. Do you really believe that?

OMAR JAMAL: Well, given the recent history of these all crimes happening in the Twin Cities, especially in the light of September 11th, where none of which has been prosecuted or anyone has been charged of anything, actually after the incident that a gentleman get hit on the head by a hate crime was later ruled as a homicide.

And what happened last night is really sending a signal to the community where they don't feel secure. And I was just sending that message to the people that the city is really turning into a slaughterhouse.

GARY EICHTEN: Is that an overstatement?

OMAR JAMAL: Given the circumstances within the context of the situation, I think it pretty much reflects the feeling of the overall community in Minneapolis.

GARY EICHTEN: Do you think that when all is said and done, justice is going to be done in the shooting case that there will be a full and fair investigation into what actually happened on Sunday?

OMAR JAMAL: Well, given the history, actually, it's not very promising. But because of the early stage of this case as we speak under investigation by the Sheriff's Department, I'm limited to speak because of that. But I hope and, as a community, we all hope that justice will eventually be served.

As the mayor, RT Rybak, thanks for him for initiating the meeting. He promised that there will be a full investigation. And eventually, I hope justice will be eventually served.

GARY EICHTEN: Professor Samatar, do you see the situation as being as critical as Mr. Jamal does?

AHMED SAMATAR: No, I don't. I think it's an overstatement to say that the city of Minneapolis is becoming a slaughterhouse. That's an exaggeration of the first order. But there is no question that there is a degree of anxiety on the part of Somali community who are here.

And cases like this, whatever the final investigations will display, initially, there is no question that it accentuates that anxiety. After all, remember, that the Somalis who are here, are people who have left a country and a kind of exodus condition in which security itself was a problem, civil war, and major problems of personal security types.

And coming to Minnesota, therefore, for them is a refuge, a place where they can find peace and security. And moments like this, difficult like this, painful conditions, like this particular case, certainly, accentuate that anxiety. But I want to remind our audience and the Somali community also that this estate is one of the safest place for minorities, I would argue, particularly for Somalis.

People here have been received rather very well, a great investment in settling them down and giving schooling and jobs to them. And the question then becomes, how to balance between what I think is a very generous culture in this state of Minnesota for people who are coming and particularly for the Somalis, I would suggest.

But also a moment in which misunderstanding takes place. And that misunderstanding then gets, I think, figured out in a context of high anxiety, in which the police would have to scramble to keep the peace, in which individuals-- they could be Somalis or others-- are caught up in that kind of a context. And perhaps, particularly when the person might be someone who sick and who doesn't know what he or she is doing that creates a tragic situation for both communities. The Minnesota community of old and the new Somali Americans who are here.

OMAR JAMAL: May I?

GARY EICHTEN: Yes, go ahead.

OMAR JAMAL: Well, Minnesota has been really very nice personally speaking for me. It's been very safe. And I've been treated well. But when I'm saying that, I'm speaking to the perspectives of these refugees and immigrants, where they've been victims of civil war, and victims of civil conflict, single mothers, elderly people with a tremendous lack of language barrier, and language, and basic skills to go out and work.

And within given a short time period where two of them have been killed in Minneapolis, 10 of them-- 10 of whom from this state get deported back to anarchy in Somalia. And business is getting shut down.

I usually speak through the perspective of these people, rather than speaking from my own perspective of this state. So because I work very closely with them and I think I'm not exaggerating or overreacting based on their view of what's happening to them as we speak right now.

GARY EICHTEN: Well, let me ask you this, gentleman. We have heard that the situation has gotten so dire or perceived to be so dire that many Somalis are thinking of packing up and leaving Minnesota. Is that true or no?

OMAR JAMAL: Well, some of them actually express that to me yesterday when we were meeting with RT Rybak. We don't want that to happen. I would like to assure them that this is the land of the law, not land of the land. We make sure that the law protects them equally under the state of the law.

No one is above the constitution. And we had a lot of legal consultations and legal forums. We met with US Attorney General yesterday with Thomas Heffelfinger. And they are assuring us that those who allow law-abiding citizens of Somalis and even immigrants have nothing to fear. And we would like to send the message to them that, in spite of what's going on, we make sure that everything will be due to process. And the law will be followed. And eventually, we hope that justice will be served.

GARY EICHTEN: Professor.

AHMED SAMATAR: Well, I think people who speak on behalf of communities ought to be very careful in the way they articulate the anxieties of the community. And to speak on behalf of the community without any kind of historical analysis and a context in which this is happening. We said there are minimally maybe 15,000 Somalis.

Do all Somalis feel the way that Mr. Jamal is telling us now they feel? I doubt very much. So I think it is important to calibrate the wound and the pain of the Somali people as they try to settle down in this wonderful state. And the difficulties that come along, both on the part of people who are coming to a new territory, new climate, new language, new culture, new laws, and community that, on the other hand, has to also help those communities to settle down so that they will find safety, and prosperity, and be accepted, that's what we have to balance.

And there are moments in which tensions are going to be high. This is not only to the Somali community. It happens in other communities around the United States.

And my argument, therefore, would be that what the Somali society community here to take a deep breath and think about the way in which they can pursue when they think that their own integrity and sense of being here has been violated. And this might be a case like that.

We don't know yet. But at the same time, they also have to understand the kind of an adaptation processes that the Somalis would have to go through. And it requires, therefore, a sense of mutuality between the two communities.

And language like a slaughterhouse is not going to help. I think it just exaggerates the problems for us. And it compounds the sense of misunderstanding that might already be here.

OMAR JAMAL: Gary.

GARY EICHTEN: Very briefly. And I want to get some callers on the line.

OMAR JAMAL: I think what we are talking about is not how I feel or how the professor feels. I think we're talking about how the widow I sit with yesterday, whose husband has been killed. I think that's what I really would like to get across, her feeling.

And when she was really very emotional and crying. And I have to go and assure her that justice will be eventually served.

AHMED SAMATAR: Yes, but the question, feeling, it's not just about feeling. It's about analysis. And I think if this gentleman, Mr. Jamal, is going to speak on the name of the Somali community in this area, then he needs to get the full analysis.

Somalis have been here now for nearly a decade. Slaughterhouse for a decade? I think that's really an exaggeration.

GARY EICHTEN: OK, well let me get some listeners involved here. Lots of folks on the line with questions and comments. We're talking today with Ahmed Samatar, who is the Dean of International Studies at Macalester College. Omar Jamal is with US, executive director of the Somali Justice Advocacy Center.

We're talking about some of the problems, high profile incidents that have occurred in recent months that affect Somalis living in Minnesota. Again, if you'd like to join our conversation, you might want to jot the number down. Most of our lines are busy right now.

So you'll get a busy signal. Try us in a few minutes. 651-227-6000 or 1-800-242-2828. Ali, your comment, please.

AUDIENCE: Hi. Good morning, Gary.

GARY EICHTEN: Good morning.

AUDIENCE: Thanks for taking my call. You got two gentlemen here that are on odds. You know, not actually agreeing on basically anything. Professor Samatar and Mr. Jamal, I don't want to actually agree with one person and disagree with the other.

But I think my call, I just want to show you the broader picture here. I mean, I'm not--

GARY EICHTEN: Well, briefly though, Ali. We don't need a big speech here now. So get to your point, if you would please.

AUDIENCE: I think my point is the incident on Sunday, I think, that is a minor incident. When I see actually what's coming up in the next few months, perhaps, even a few years, where the United States government, especially the federal government has in mind and put in place to treat the Somali people.

Actually, so I think Somalis should be concerned what's coming after them, but what has happened already has happened. But I think the next steps that the state and federal government are taking against the Somali people is really a real concern to me that majority of the Somali people don't really-- aware about.

And I think, you know, right now, I think they are not even aware of what's going to happen to them in a few months, a few years down the road. And I think this is going to be a very, very slow process. But I think I should wonder why the United States are bringing more refugees to the US. And as a matter of fact, they are treating this current refugees this way.

GARY EICHTEN: OK. Ali, can I ask you very briefly, what is it that you see happening to the Somalis three months, three years down the road?

AUDIENCE: I think what I see happening is already the Somali businesses are under attack aggressively by the federal government, accusing them of terrorism, links to terrorism. A lot of these businesses have been shut down. And I think they have a special-- they have an eye on the Somali communities operating in the United States all over.

GARY EICHTEN: OK.

OMAR JAMAL: Gary, I would like to-- Ali comments some of his things that he said. I would like to assure the Somali people out there that there is no conspiracy against the Somali community by the US government. Our president said that the war against terrorism is not against all Muslims.

It's against a specific group of terrorist organizations. And I would like to put emphasis on this. And this is one of the problems we've been facing, unfounded fear from the community that there's a kind of a conspiracy that the government is sitting somewhere conspiring to make up cases against Somali community.

No, there's no such thing as a conspiracy against the Somali people. Things happen. And we're making a follow up to this. The incident that happened yesterday, we spoke about the government shutting down businesses, some of which were very legitimate. And some of it were not.

And the system gives you the chance to fight back legally. And we urge the community to just be a law-abiding citizen. And if something happens to them, which they think is not constitutional, to take it to the right path to fight that issue back to the system without resorting to some illegal activities.

And again, I would like to assure them that there is no conspiracy, whatsoever at all.

GARY EICHTEN: Down the road though, professor, if the US does end up involved militarily, especially in Somalia, again, isn't that likely going to have an adverse impact on Somalis living here?

AHMED SAMATAR: I think so minimally because it is very possible that people who might get caught up in those kinds of military activities inside Somalia itself could very well be relatives of people who are living here. So that dire possibility exists. But you see, we live in very an unordinary times in the sense that the United States has got serious security, national security concerns.

And some of these concerns could also be exaggerated. Some of them are for real. And the federal government and other governments in the United States State and local would have to also act with that sense of their own concern about the security of this country. And the Somalis are now part of this country.

So I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I think Jamal is right that the Somali community in Minnesota ought to hold together two things. One, is that they have every right to protect their own civic rights in this country and in this city. No question about that. And I think the people of Minnesota will support that because if the Somalis lose their sense of civic identity with the state and with the community, then there is a loss for our own community.

But at the same time, I think the Somalis, as Jamal said, have to be very, very careful in understanding the context in which they live, the difficulties that are associated with their own adaptation process. And therefore, they would have to understand the obligations and the responsibilities of the authorities locally, and in the state, and nationally.

And it is a sense of holding those two together, in which I think one prepares the fertile ground for a sense of citizenship, and acceptance in the community, and becoming secure people in our own state.

GARY EICHTEN: Dennis, your comment please.

AUDIENCE: Well, thank you for taking the call, sir and gentleman. In reference to the deportation of the 10 Somalis, how can it be wrong or discriminatory to deport these people when eight out of the 10 deportees had been declared convicted of various crimes, ranging from drug offenses, to acts of violence, and this information was reported in a news article last week in the newspaper.

Why should I, as a taxpayer, be responsible for their confinement and care in a US prison when they are not citizens of the United States and have pretty much shown by breaking their agreement when they came to this country as immigrants to support them? I mean, why is this a discriminatory problem? Thank you. And I'll take the comments offline.

GARY EICHTEN: Thanks, Dennis.

OMAR JAMAL: Well, Gary. Half of the statement the gentleman said I kind of agree with him. But what I like to let him know that is that because given under the circumstances of Somali country, where there is no functioning government in back there, it's like deporting a Palestine person back to Palestine, where there is no state there.

And that because of the fact that we're still investigating, whether really some of them were criminal or not, even if they are criminal for argument's sake, INS has no legal grounds to deport people back to a country where there is no functioning government. And if someone is criminal, I think it's better for the citizens to keep that person out and be the crime they committed.

100%, I agree with that. But at the same time, there's international law that we as American signed that no one can be deported back to a country where there is an anarchy and lawless. So that itself, is something that's unconstitutional. And I completely don't agree with INS.

And on the other hand, INS is not expediting the process of TPS, which is temporary protection status for the Somalis by putting them in a position where they are deportable. And we're asking the INS to enforce the law in their books. So those people have somewhere to fall back.

GARY EICHTEN: Professor, do you see that this instance of the Somalis have been deported as a fairly narrow legal issue, important legal issue, but more of a legal issue or, again, a broader question of treatment of Somalis?

AHMED SAMATAR: I would say it's the first. That's to say a narrow legal question because, as I was saying at the beginning, you have to couple our conversation, or you have to locate our conversation in the context of the broad way in which the Somali people have been received in the state of Minnesota.

And in that broader sense, the reception has been quite good and very supportive of the community. I have spoken in many, many different forums in which I have met 100 and maybe even thousands of Minnesota people from Marshall, all the way to the North, in which the people in these communities want to receive the Somali people and help them settle down and become productive members of this community.

So I see more of a legal question. And I think the caller is right. If you have a situation, a specific situation in which an individual either comes into the country without papers or the wrong papers, therefore, in that sense, breaks the law of documentation, or they commit crimes that the local society or the federal government sees as crimes that also break the law, then the people will have to pay for the consequences of that.

And if one of the consequences, therefore, is that they have to be deported to where they came from, I don't see any other alternative. And I think we also have to be very careful that not every place in Somalia is anarchic. That's another exaggeration. Not every place is anarchic.

There are many places inside Somalia that are very peaceful, in which communities exist. They don't have a state at the national level. But they had a local governance system, and they are going about their own lives as best as they can.

There are well over 7 and 1/2 million Somalis living inside the country. And they are not all being run over by guns and a statelessness. That's a national problem. But there are locally peaceful communities.

GARY EICHTEN: But presumably, professor, the federal government, if it chose to, could find all kinds of people here in America who are eligible to be deported, if you will, who have committed crimes. Seems like don't you feel like you're being picked on?

AHMED SAMATAR: Well, perhaps, so. I think it might be possible that given September 11th, and the connotations of that that is to say associated with Muslim communities around the world, it is very possible then that connotation feeds into a particular stereotyping of say Somalis and other Muslims. And hence, those communities then become subject to a quick suspicion and may be tightening the laws on them.

That's very possible. But it doesn't still, I think, free us from the obligation of having a set of rules in this country wherever we are. The Somalis have run away and rightly so from a place in which the rules of the state and the society broke down. And it became a kind of a chaotic Hobbesian situation as my colleague has been describing early on.

We don't want to create the same thing in this context. So there has to be some basic law in which the community functions. And we have to then have some confidence in our own institutions local and national that they will fulfill those laws with the optimum degree of property and the optimum degree of legal and careful operation.

GARY EICHTEN: Omar Jamal.

OMAR JAMAL: Gary, one thing I'd like to remind the professor is that Ashcroft or US Attorney has extended the TPS, temporary protection status for the people who are nationals of Somalis. Keeping in mind the political situation in Somalia, he gave them the extension that they can apply and file that application.

Therefore, they will be undeportable because of that situation. And therefore, I completely agree with Ashcroft on this issue. And would ask the INS to enforce that law without delaying that process.

And when the office of the US General released that extension, unlike the professor that the Somali is very stable country, they have in mind that it wasn't given the foreign policy of this administration in the White House. They think that the Somali is an anarchy. And there is no law there. And at the same time, to deport things is very contradictory.

AHMED SAMATAR: But that's not true because I have been doing research on Somali society for a long time. I have been to Somalia again and again. There are segments of the Somali territory that are still in chaotic condition. And yes, there is no effective national government. But there are many places that are very stable and in which people are leading a decent life.

GARY EICHTEN: We have to take a break here before we continue our conversation. We're talking with Omar Jamal, who is the executive director of the Somali Justice Advocacy Center. Ahmed Samatar is with us, Dean of International Studies at Macalester College in Saint Paul talking about some of the highly publicized problems that Somalis are facing in Minnesota or say they're facing in Minnesota.

Again, our phone bank is full. We'll get to more questions here in just a couple of minutes. Right now, we're going to break for some news headlines.

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Click and join at minnesotapublicradio.org. News summary now from Greta Cunningham, Greta.

GRETA CUNNINGHAM: Thanks, Gary. Good morning. A Pentagon spokesman says US troops will continue their campaign to wipe out enemy fighters in Eastern Afghanistan. A Pentagon spokesman says US commanders have rejected an Afghan allies proposal to halt bombing and allow the enemy fighters holed up in the Eastern Afghan mountains to either give up or leave.

The truce plan reportedly came from an Afghan commander. Operation Anaconda has been the biggest ground operation of the war in Afghanistan. A Houston prosecutor says Andrea Yates is mentally ill, but he says she must be convicted of capital murder, anyway, because she knew drowning her five children was wrong.

But in his closing statement, Yates defense attorney termed mental illness as a medical condition. He compared Yates case with a truck driver running over and killing five children after suffering a stroke. He says a jury wouldn't find the truck driver guilty of murder.

The search is on for three crewmen from a US Navy helicopter. The Pentagon says it crashed into the Mediterranean Sea this morning while on a routine training flight. The Seahawk chopper crashed off the Coast of Greece after taking off from a US destroyer in the area.

In regional news, an official from the Minnesota Historical Society says Fort Snelling will not have to close because of budget cuts. However, the society plans to cut 14 jobs and reduce hours at other sites, including the forest History Center in Grand Rapids.

This is the 35th and final day of the South Dakota legislature. Lawmakers have three vetoes to consider. One deals with the operation of state reform schools. Another bill involves contract talks between teachers and school boards.

And the final veto came on a bill calling for a study of legislative powers. It requires 2/3 votes in both the Senate and House to override vetoes. The forecast for Minnesota calls for snow in the North with a little freezing rain also possible in Northeastern Minnesota. It'll be partly sunny in the South today and high temperatures will range from 38 in the Northeast to 55 in the Southwest.

Right now, in Marshall, it's cloudy and 39. Ely reports cloudy skies and 30 degrees. It's cloudy in Thief River Falls and 36. Sunny in Austin, and 34. And in the Twin Cities, sunshine with a temperature of 37. Gary, that's a look at the latest news.

GARY EICHTEN: Thanks, Greta. 23 minutes before 12. This is Midday on Minnesota Public Radio. And this hour, we are talking about the situation facing Somalis in Minnesota, many of whom are very upset about several incidents that have occurred in the last several months, the latest of which the shooting death of a mentally ill Somali in Minneapolis on Sunday.

Joining us here in the studio, Ahmed Samatar, a Dean of International Studies at Macalester College. Omar Jamal is with us. He is the Executive Director of the Somali Justice Advocacy Center. Mohamed is on the line with a comment. Go ahead, Mohammed.

AUDIENCE: Hi, Thanks. Thanks for taking my call.

GARY EICHTEN: You bet.

AUDIENCE: I would like to make a few points. First of all--

GARY EICHTEN: OK, just pick one or two because we--

AUDIENCE: OK, I'll pick two.

GARY EICHTEN: All right.

AUDIENCE: My first point is I agree with Jamal with every instance. I mean, after September 11th, what's been happening at the Somali community is, in large, I live with a couple of cab drivers. And 80% of the city's cab drivers are Somalis.

I don't know if you noticed that. And police have been giving them tickets for no reason, I mean. And when he says it's a manslaughter, I don't have anything against the Minnesota people. They're generous people.

But there's law and order in the city. These people came from civil war countries. And they came to the United States for refugee and to get a better life. And when the law doesn't help them, I mean, you know, I don't know if you guys understand the point that I'm trying to make.

GARY EICHTEN: Not precisely. But point number two?

AUDIENCE: The point number two is the deportation. I mean, I just came back from Somalia. And I'm only 23 years old. And I lived here for 10 years.

And when I went up there, it was totally different. I mean, there's no federal government down there. And there's no security. And there's tribal issues. And it's anarchy.

And when a young person who lived like 10, or 12 years, or a decade in the US is deported back to Somalia, which maybe his tribe is not down there. I mean, he can face execution.

And that's why they came to this country, at the first point. So I don't agree with the professor at that point, at all. And I think they should be given time before they're deported, or given other legal issues, or see their case with whole.

Like in New York, there's tons of people in other states, who are waiting for the same thing. And they're just given time. There's government, or there's some kind of security.

GARY EICHTEN: All right, thank you, Mohammed. Gentlemen.

AHMED SAMATAR: Well, I want to repeat what I said before. And I think if we do this very carefully, it will become obvious that there are two issues in Somalia itself. Everybody agrees that there is no national government. Everybody agrees that.

But that is not coterminous with the assumption that everywhere in Somalia is chaotic and anarchic. That just is not true. In Northern Somalia, for example, there is a whole state structure.

There is a government there. It might be weak, but people live in peace. And they elect their own officials. And they go about that process as much as they can. In the Northeast, there are also the same kind of structures in place, difficulties yes.

So at one level, there is no national government. But that does not mean that Somalia is what it used to be 10 years ago. And then the second point is on law. And that is, as I said before, I think every Somali like every Minnesotan has a right to protect his or her own civic rights.

There should not be any compromise about this. And if the Somali community or individuals in the Somali community feel that their own civic rights are being undermined, or abused, or hijacked by the police, or whoever else, they need certainly to respond to that.

And they will have to resist, and they will have to mount a challenge to that. But at the same time, they have to remember-- and this is I think where leadership becomes very important. We have to watch for the Al Sharpton effect here.

And that is the exaggeration that one issue, or two issues, or even three issues can be used to speak about the whole quality of life of more than 15,000 Somalis who live in many different parts of the state of Minnesota. I think in the end, that kind of an exaggeration might work to the detriment of the Somali people who are here.

GARY EICHTEN: Omar Jamal.

OMAR JAMAL: Gary, the recent press release by the end is extending the Somalis to TPS, temporary protection status. Actually, it states the fact that the country is not stable because only those whose country is not politically stable get the extension.

GARY EICHTEN: What about this question in terms of what Mohammed was suggesting is like the police harassment of Somalis here, setting aside the issue of anarchy and so on in Somalia.

OMAR JAMAL: I agree with him. There's quite a slight of increase phone calls we get about the police brutality in Minneapolis in Twin Cities. And that, I don't agree with being a conspiracy. It happens.

If you live a life, and you live in a Metropolitan city, of course, you will encounter police. And you may, as well, sometimes, get a ticket. If the person that's given a ticket questions the process that he was given the ticket, he can take up to the court to the due process.

And we will encourage them to call the center. And if they feel that their basic civic and Bill of Rights have been violated, there are so many help available, thanks to so many lawyers who are volunteers at the center, counsels the people at immigration issues, criminal issues.

And there are a lot of non Somalis who are out there cares about this. And I don't-- this is not something, I think, is someone out there who is really having ill-minded towards the Somali people. Somalis are one of the most recent immigrants to this country.

And they're going through their transitional period. And going back to the deportation issue, one thing I would like to state the fact is that taking the professor's point that there are some parts of the country where it's stable, and, therefore, people can be deportable in that specific areas. Even if that may be the case from professor's side, I don't think so.

The INS is taking the time to sort these deportees out as to which region they came from. They dumped them into the capital city, where whether he is from the North, whether he is from the Northeast, they shackle them. They handcuff them. We questioned the process. And they dumped them into a capital city where there's the anarchy one can ever imagine.

GARY EICHTEN: Very, very briefly here because I don't want to get too sidetracked on this deportation issue, only because there isn't much-- it seems to me that Minnesotans could do one way or the other about that particular issue.

AHMED SAMATAR: Well, my point is very simple. And I think we agree on one level. I think he's right that Mogadishu is still a very chaotic place. There's no question about that.

And therefore, dropping people from airplanes or taking them on shackles and dropping them in the middle of Mogadishu is wrong. And this is where it is really important for those who think they are speaking on behalf of the Somali people. That is not an argument for the assumption or the assertion that Somalia is a chaotic place.

And there is, therefore, no place to go. It is just not so, but Mogadishu certainly is chaotic. And is still a very unsettled place.

GARY EICHTEN: Yosef, your comment, please.

AUDIENCE: Thank, you for taking my call, Gary.

GARY EICHTEN: Yes.

AUDIENCE: And my comment is I will argue that the situation is not extremely dangerous the way Mr. Jamal here is portraying. And I agree a little bit with the professor because what we need here is just a total understanding and cooperation between our civic leaders, state, and federal government officials with the Somali community in understanding the Somali way of life and, you know, how we are coping with the situation in Minnesota.

That's exactly what we need to take place. We don't need, you know, talking things here and there. And there are a lot of loopholes here and there. But what we need is a cooperation between these officials. And I think that will be the only way we can solve the differences here, and I will be off now.

GARY EICHTEN: OK, thank you. I'm wondering, Omar Jamal, if there is not a conspiracy. And you say there isn't. Why do you suppose there seems to be so much distrust between, at least, some Somalis and government officials? If they're not preying on the Somalis, how do this kind of thing spin out of control?

OMAR JAMAL: Well, Gary, one has to keep in mind the context of these events that's really happening right now. The country has a very racial historical background that they cannot get away with it. And there could be so many other factors that could play a role here.

And in the light even in September 11th, I think there needs to be more educational forum from the police department and from the community department, rather than one thinking that there is some people who are out there conspiring against them. And it's one of the transitional period that usually immigrants go through that we're going through.

Not that I condone what's going on. Actually, we as a center, spend much of our time trying to work with the Somalis and with the authority. And it's not something we like to see it happen. But that's the fact of life.

And I caution to question the intention of my mayor and my chief of police. Of course, they can do some criminal activities, whereby I have the right under the law to challenge that. And I would like to send that message to the community. And, of course, there's been increase of these things in light of September 11th.

GARY EICHTEN: Professor, care to comment?

AHMED SAMATAR: Well, there is no question that the transition process for any community is a very difficult one, especially when that is loaded with different language, different religion, different racial background, and maybe even broader culture. No question about that.

Those transition problems then get compounded. I think Jamal is right by events like September 11, which is something that we have never seen before in this country. But where I would take this would be exactly what the earlier caller said. And that is to balance events that have taken place, like the killing of this Somali gentleman who was sick, which is, if the evidence comes through, and that's what it was, and he was mentally sick, then we can come to particular kinds of conclusions that the police should have done better than this.

But all of this would have to be balanced. And I repeat this. With what is now very legendary, even known among the Somalis, and that is the enormous welcome, which was given by the people of Minnesota, including the state and its organs in the state of Minnesota.

And the continuous wish on the part of the people of Minnesota to support the Somali people, we have to get them get hold of those situations, which create a different kind of a context and misunderstanding for us. And then solve them, and a language that is overexaggerated, in the end, only, from my point of view, destroys the building of a sense of collective identity as Minnesotans.

And it racializes. It creates its religions fragmentation. And in the final analysis, undermines the collective civic culture that we want to build here.

GARY EICHTEN: Sarah, your comment please.

AUDIENCE: Yes, I'm a psychologist, and very sensitive to mental illness, and very supportive of immigrants. But I feel like it's really unfair to construe the situation that happened with the police in the way that-- I can't remember the man's name-- the man professor is talking about it.

If he was waving a machete, I lived in New York the year the Long Island ferry man killed seven people with a machete. It's an extremely dangerous situation. And to just decide the police should have done X, Y, and z with lots of people passing by, I think is really unfair, if you weren't in that situation.

People with mental illness are not at fault, but can be extremely dangerous if a situation like that ensues. And to turn this into killing grounds and talking about people being against the Somalis without, as the professor was saying, talking about all of the tremendous welcome that's happened here, I truly think there's much more harm than good.

And as a liberal person who is very supportive of the Somalis being here, I think this is a two-way street that we really-- I hear a lot of distrust coming from the side of the Somalis in terms of talking about everyone is against us. And we're being stopped more and everything else.

And I think there is a lot on the side of the Whites living in Minnesota also after September 11th. It's a two way responsibility here. And I think lowering the rhetoric would be a great first step and not making these kind of incendiary comments that to anyone who thinks seem really ridiculous.

GARY EICHTEN: OK, Omar Jamal.

OMAR JAMAL: Yeah I couldn't agree more with the caller that the state has been very welcoming, and Minnesota is nice, and actually-- but the statement that she just said that-- she said if he was waving a machetes, a crowbar the victim, and that's one of the things. That's now one of the early stages of investigation.

Whether he was a threat was really waving. What really happened, I think, someone to conclude-- make a conclusion out of this early stage of investigation, I wouldn't go there. But the fact that this state has been very welcoming to the Somalis is out of the question.

And it's, just as you mentioned, it's a two-way street here. And I'm really very appreciative some of the support I get from non Somalis, Christians, coming and helping the immigrants in terms of legal advice, free legal consultations, even sometimes even financial.

So it's more onto the narrowing the gap between people who have gone through 11 years of civil war with the mental traumatized and found themselves in big cities. It's more like dealing with them and sending a message to them that they are not in a harmful city, which is sometimes very, very difficult position one can find himself into.

GARY EICHTEN: In retrospect, Mr. Jamal, do you wish that you hadn't used the term talking about slaughterhouse in Minneapolis or that charges-- there were charges at the press conferences the last couple of days that the police were guilty of murder. And, of course, the investigation hasn't even been conducted, yet. In retrospect, do you wish that maybe more temperate language had been used? OMAR JAMAL: Well, some of the language I haven't used, but the one that I did, actually, I would say that again is in light of the feeling and the state of mind of those people who are out there right now as we speak. And I want the Minnesotans to come out and help to lessen that fear, to send the message with them that they're not out there to harm them.

And that's what we've been preaching to them every now, and then telling them that those people out there care about you. And in direct relationship to what they feel and the position they find themselves are-- sometimes, I may find myself overstating or even, sometimes, understating.

But when I speak, I'm not speaking on the behalf of how I feel or what is my feeling, but rather than how they feel like. The widow I sat with yesterday was crying emotionally. How does she feel like? Not how Jamal feels like.

GARY EICHTEN: Professor, we're just about out of time here. But any advice for folks who aren't Somali in terms of trying to smooth over or bridge some of these divides that do occur?

AHMED SAMATAR: Well, I have a quick one on that and maybe a quick one on the Somalis, too. The quick for the non Somali Minnesotans is continue to do what they have been doing the last 10 years. And that is intelligence support for the Somalis families, individuals so that they will find roots here, build a worthy life here, and become part of this state.

And I think our community has been very good at that. Perhaps, we want to do a little bit beyond that given the September 11th and come to know more about Islamic culture, and society, and East African culture and history on that. But continue what you have been doing.

And that's incredible generosity for the Somalis. Be careful about who speaks for you because you want to make sure that whatever difficulties that you have with individuals or offices in the state, should not overwhelm the broad support that you have with the community, and that you are now part of this society.

GARY EICHTEN: Gentlemen, we're out of time. But thank you so much for joining us today. Appreciate it.

OMAR JAMAL: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

GARY EICHTEN: Our guests this hour, Ahmed Samatar, Dean of International Studies at Macalester College. Omar Jamal is the Executive Director of the Somali Justice Advocacy Center.

I'd like to thank all of you who've been with us this hour, especially those of you who called in or tried to call in with your questions and comments. Writer's Almanac coming up right after a test of the emergency alert system. Well, we failed the test. And so five minutes now before 12:00. Let's get on to the Writer's Almanac.