(00:00:00) It's 12 noon. And this is midday coming to you in Minnesota Public Radio. Good afternoon. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us or have we have some news headlines next and then right after the news we're going to have more on politics. We're going to hear from Paul begala who's in town to talk with Mark yudof at the University of Minnesota about politics talking about the 2000 campaign in the current state of Politics the budget shortfall bonding redistricting stadiums terrorism and Public Safety. The latest on all major issues of the 2002 legislative session is on session 2002 at Minnesota Public Radio dot-org. You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio Sunny Sky 5 above at Kinder wfm 91.1 Minneapolis. And st. Paul partly cloudy this afternoon with a high reaching 15 degrees above tonight. Some flurries are possible with an overnight low to above 28 above then tomorrow partly cloudy little bit warmer with a high temperature in the low 20s good chance for snow on Sunday. Minute now past 12. Let's catch up on the latest news headlines here Stephen John's dude. Thank you Gary and innocent plea today from the shoe bomb suspect Richard Reid entered the plea to new charges in Boston. He's accused of trying to blow up a transatlantic flight with bombs in his shoes and International Red Cross team has started meeting with prisoners at the US Military Base in Cuba, they'll evaluate whether the u.s. Is violating the rights of the captives from Afghanistan the interim CEO of the American Red Cross says his organization will announce plans to spend the remaining four hundred million dollars in its Liberty Fund at the end of the month Minnesota public radio's Tom shek reports Harold Decker became interim CEO of the American Red Cross in November after members of Congress question why the organization was in spending all of the money from the Liberty Fund on victims of the September 11th attacks the fund was set up after the attacks took place and raised over a half a billion dollars Decker says, all of the money is now earmarked for the families and victims. He says a portion of the He was spent to assist with day-to-day needs he will announce plans for the remaining four hundred million dollars on January (00:02:10) 31st. We're looking to say what are their needs going forward? Do we (00:02:13) need to spend all this money right away or should we be looking at the long term where they may have some long-term needs and we may have to not spend all of that money immediately (00:02:22) Decker says many victims and their family members may need health care and Social Services for years. I'm Tom Scheck, Minnesota Public Radio 3 m plans to cut 2,500 jobs this year as it closes five plants the job cuts and plant closings are part of an ongoing restructuring campaign. The company started last year not all of the cuts are lay off. Some will come through attrition and eliminating redundant jobs after Acquisitions the cuts come on top of 6,000 job cuts the maple wood based manufacturer made last year Company CEO James McNerney expects. The cuts will save the company some 1 billion dollars the announcement came as three M reported operating income had dropped 13 percent in the fourth quarter Edward. Owns analyst bill fiala says the results were as good or better than expected. Even though earnings were down for the quarter. I think given the economic environment worldwide with most of the world in recession. They're really pretty stellar results. 2001 was McNair knees First full year as CEO of 3M. He took over in December of 2000 after working as a top executive at General Electric look for highs of Five Below Zero Northeast to Upper teens in the southwest this afternoon Gary. That's the latest news. All right, thank you. Stephen three and a half past 12:00 and welcome back to mid-day here on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten. Well last hour on this program. We heard from Ralph Nader on the 2000 presidential campaign and the state of politics here in 2002 this hour we're going to hear from one of the nation's top political Consultants Paul. Begala. All the gala was a top advisor to former President Bill Clinton, and he's currently out with a new book on politics that he co-wrote with James Carville titled buck up suck up and come. Back when you follow up this week Paul begala who is now a professor of government and public policy at Georgetown was in the Twin Cities to talk politics with the University of Minnesota president, Mark yudof, the first in a new lecture series at the you called great conversations here to begin is University of Minnesota president, Mark (00:04:22) yudof. Let's start out talking a little bit about President Bush and I know that your official position is that we now need warning labels on bags of pretzels true thoroughly. And if you're pregnant consult with (00:04:38) your physician before (00:04:40) you munch you did write a book is our children learning and what do you think about President Bush in terms of his actual policies is political strategies and what's as a pro? What's your evaluation of them? (00:04:57) First I will say my boss Bill Clinton never had a problem with snack food (00:05:03) right? There wasn't there wasn't a Big Mac and a (00:05:05) three-state area that was safe from him so he had other (00:05:08) issues. (00:05:14) I think certainly on the foreign (00:05:16) policy front we start with the good news. He has very favorably impressed me and surprised me and I'm happy to admit that I always like to see people grow and change or maybe I was wrong to begin with but he he campaigned on a foreign policy agenda that has been fundamentally altered by September 11th and to his credit he changed with the times in the campaign he ran around it was just rhetoric but he ran around said the military has been Hollow and we can't possibly fight and win a warming you remember how the Clinton it ruined the military. Well, you know, he's not saying that anymore thank goodness. She now understands that we have the greatest military in human history, (00:05:51) but you know what James carville's wife said about that. She said her husband, your co-author was a private in the Marines and he was the highest ranking officer in the White (00:06:01) House exactly. (00:06:04) But that it's actually true the but that that right there but then that Clinton trained Clinton staff (00:06:12) Clinton recruited Clinton armed military, by the way using the Clinton strategy from Kosovo, which is Strategic Air power with a proxy round force on the ground, which is how we want to Kosovo has worked very well here this takes a lot for a politician though to come in and to acknowledge changed realities and to change with it and I'm not really not trying to be too partisan about that because he he needs to be saluted. It would have been easier to stick with his political rhetoric to go alone to be unilateral. He waited almost a month after September 11th before he struck back and that took Prudence it took patience. It took wisdom that I didn't think he possessed but he waited and built an International Coalition with General Powell at the helm and that took a lot. I admire that on the domestic side having We endorsed his efforts in the war. And the domestic side there's been not the same level of growth. It depends on education where I know you went saw him last week to sign the education Bill. He threw this very conservative position. He had on vouchers overboard day one which allowed the two parties to come together on what seems to be a reasonable education Bill much more federal spending much more Federal involvement. I like that as a liberal but he hasn't had that same flexibility and economic policy. He came in a very divisive way. He passed his bill which you have to admire but it has squandered about four trillion dollars of projected surpluses over the next ten years so that now we're right back in the same red ink that we were in the last time we had a bush in a white house and we're right back in a recession which we had last time. We had a bush in the White House. (00:07:49) One of the things that's interesting you mean the president's popularity ratings are whatever they are mid 80s or something like that and people sort of naturally assume he'll be re-elected and I think about history and you think about the fact that the Democrats were thrown out of office in 1920 after World War One FDR had his closest election in 1944 wanted by significant, but nothing like the overwhelming margins President. Truman did not run for re-election President Johnson did not read run for re-election President Clinton prevailed in the election of 1992. What's your assessment? It is sort of the conventional wisdom. Is that this popularity in a wartime president sort of carries you through and what do you think about that? (00:08:39) There's this great story. Someone once asked Joe and Li the Chinese leader what he thought of the French Revolution. He said too soon to tell (00:08:48) I don't have the sweep of history that our friends in China have but I do think it is just too soon to tell and I'm not trying to dodge (00:08:55) he his folks his because I'm from Texas and Mark noses to I'm friends with many of the people who are working for the president today and it's been fun to watch folks who I've known for ten or fifteen years now in the the jobs that I had my friends held in the last Administration and he his advisers I think are overly concerned that he'll repeat the mistakes of his father seems like every day is telling us he's not Bill Clinton and he's not George Bush Senior if I worked there, I think I would send him a memo that said this you need to worry about being perceived like Jimmy Carter who's an admirable man in many ways, but he had a recession and a Middle East conflict with no clear end in sight. And he was a sort of a reformer Outsider governor who was elected basically saying I'll be more moral than my president predecessor. And I think that's his big worried his big trap his other great worry again, if I work for him, I'm sure he'll be watching this he (00:09:48) anything but now anything (00:09:50) by the way that that's on the satellite, you know, he'd beams down and he needs to worry about John McCain. If John McCain runs an independent, it could be the end of bush because here we have a war and we in John McCain's a war hero and we have Enron the greatest corporate ripoff in history and John McCain is a by God reformer and he could steal all of that Thunder if he decides to run and I'd be very worried about McCain (00:10:14) without an office in the economy. You have September 11th, which sort of drives things further south productivity is actually off, you know, and to me that's a long run time of Health your two two and a half percent increases employee productivity over decade that's in the end going to be very good and some senators are now saying it wasn't September 11th. It wasn't some of those pre-existing conditions and (00:10:47) lot comes it was the tax cut the conventional Keynesian economics is really deficit spend your way out. (00:10:56) Recession (00:10:59) and the tax cuts put more money in people's pockets. And now I'm sure you're one of the sessions Pockets but increases consumption and all (00:11:06) the rest of it. I mean, is that a credible argument that it really is the bush recession and that it was the tax cut that really more than anything else (00:11:14) triggered it. Business cycle and it's softening of the Clinton boom, but I think people underestimate the very first thing that bush and Cheney did even before they were sworn in as soon as the Supreme Court gave them the election. They said we're heading for a recession just when consumer confidence is very fragile. They started talking down the economy and that is a problem and the Clinton economic team warned them in the transition. They said look you can't do that, you know a president has to be a leader in hope. He's got to be the foremost advocate of the American economy can't be running around telling people that bad times are ahead. So in the near term, I think it was a big mistake to talk down the economy and because that depressed consumer confidence and he did that for political reasons to pass this tax cut on the long term the big two problems we have really is a consumer spending is down and long-term interest rates are stubbornly high long-term interest rates are not controlled by Alan Greenspan. They're controlled by the private sector bond market which looks at the fiscal policy of the United States. They see long-term Us interest rates and long-term go down. They now see long-term deficits and so they have pushed those long-term interest rates up which is choking off capital for the private sector. So yeah, I think there's a very legitimate economic case that this long-term tax cut has choked off the interest rates for the raised interest rates choked off Capital. So I think Democrats make a good case. It's a bush (00:12:39) recession. Let me ask you this a couple of what if questions really gets back to the war issue. I have been a couple of articles that have appeared. What if vice president Gore were in the White House and one writer Al hunt the Wall Street Journal said that they'd have been hounding him. They'd have said that it was the Clinton CIA. It was the Clinton policies in the armed forces and the would have been this. This hunt for the bad guys who intelligence lapses and all the rest of that and that at least with the new team in their you sort of avoid that because for one reason or another you say, well that wasn't your Administration. The other position is the gore would have handled it better, but he would have moved more rapidly to decrease our dependency on foreign oil not a push for the large tax cut and a bunch of other things. Do you've any sense to that? I mean you did work closely or did you work closely with vice president Gore in the campaign? (00:13:44) And in the White House? I did I played George Bush in the debate preps and (00:13:48) I knew Bush was going to beat him because I beat him in the practice sessions. I said hell this guy's in big trouble. Gore is not he's not he's away we go to pursue this little more to answer the question and we'll get back to that. You don't want to trash Al Gore here, (00:14:01) but well first I don't subscribe to the theory that the smarter and more experienced man would do a worse job. I think (00:14:10) I just don't I think bushes. That's my great. Hope as president of the University of Minnesota. I think bush has done a (00:14:18) terrific job, but the argument that Al Hunt made was really troubling may be right but he was basically saying because of The Fringe not the mainstream of the Republican party, but The Fringe element on Capitol Hill the country is nearly ungovernable unless you have a Republican president and I don't accept that but I was working for Bill Clinton in the white house when we launched 65 cruise missiles against Osama Bin Laden, we had hard intelligence that he was meeting in Afghanistan and we launched and we missed him by an hour or two. He got out just in time the same time. We launched missiles in cartoon where he had a chemical weapons plant and the right wing in America then said the Clinton was just doing it to cover his political hide. They wanted to make that another article. Peach meet some of them he was massively criticized for saber-rattling and later. They said oh it wasn't a chemical weapons plant. It was an aspirin Factory. Well, I don't believe the al-Qaeda spend. I mean believe me as a chemical weapons plant in cartoon that we hit and when we had the war in Kosovo Clinton was undermined at every turn he did it anyway, but there was a point at which the House of Representatives refused to vote for a resolution endorsing the use of force in Kosovo. I've been proud that both parties now are supporting this war effort and it would expect anything less but there is a question. In fact, the only problems bushes had been from the far, right? Green is a question at what point some people will suspend their rabid ideology and simply put patriotism first. And actually I felt the radical right for that (00:15:50) but, you know get back to another points as we want to stir up some controversy here you obviously or maybe not obviously but you seem to me to have some reservations about vice president Gore maybe the way he ran his campaign and there was the Contra Thompson, Florida and I'll talk to you a little bit about that. But did he blow it? I mean they're he carry Tennessee. He's president no matter how they count the votes in Florida. How did you see that? I mean again yours, you know, you know a great deal. I had a Lector person president of the United States. I'm really talking tactically strategically not so much. What was the right position or the wrong position on the substance? (00:16:32) I think both those two. I think the election was stolen from him and I think he blew it. Those aren't mutually exclusive. I think he clearly was the Tended Choice the people of Florida and it may be that legally. He couldn't get credit for that and we have to deal with that but You're right. It should have never come to that. I worked with him closely in the white house. I think he would be a terrific president, but he was a terrible candidate. He ran a terrible campaign and I think if he hopes have a political future. He's going to have to acknowledge that and try to learn from the mistakes. He made to wit. He began with the premise that his greatest risk was Clinton having had a girlfriend. Okay. I never believed that people in hold against (00:17:11) Clinton that he had a girlfriend. They work in a hold against Gore. And so that it's like, you know in mathematics if you (00:17:20) start, you know the longest equation with with a math are at the beginning you're going to have a man out there at the end. (00:17:26) And so did you try to reason with him about the he was real open to this discussion? Believe me? (00:17:32) I thought his big problem was and I think this (00:17:35) is not fully fair. But his big problems of people thought he was a phony they didn't think he was a philanderer and they didn't worry that his friend was a philanderer. Therefore. He was a bad guy. They worried that he was not authentic that he was a phony and Bush for my many criticism of him is not a phony, you know him. I know him a little bit. He's a genuine guys a nice guy. I mean he has his limits but he is a (00:17:55) lovely man and he's comfortable in his own skin and (00:17:58) he played that to his great strength. He made it about me. Yeah, maybe okay. I wasn't top of my class like mr. Smarty pants, but I'm a at least I'm normal. I'm human (00:18:07) and Gore (00:18:10) Gore in December. Of 98 hugged President Clinton on the grounds of the White House the day he was impeached and called him one of the great presidents of our time something. I believe six months later six months when he announced for the presidency. He said how shocked and humiliated and disgusted. He was the Clinton had an affair. Well, you can't hug him on impeachment day and slug him on announcement day and expect people to think you're not a phony because that's a funny thing to do. May I love Al Gore? I wish he was our president but he had the wrong strategy from the beginning. (00:18:41) Let's talk a little bit about Florida, you know, and I'll just say some things that occur to me and you may not agree with them but one is how dead wrong the lawyers got it absolutely dead wrong. The data is very clear. The gore people thought they had been robbed of the under vote. Where's the fact those were more Bush votes and the bush people thought that was the over votes and they did they didn't do nearly as well and that group so and that happens when you compact something and you don't I can't do all the fact-finding and all that. I thought the gore team was outlawed in Florida. I say that as someone who watch the presentations and without getting specific as to personalities. Do you agree with that (00:19:26) assessment? Yes for one thing. You know, they just wanted it worse some of it not the lawyer in the politics of it was sleazy though. They Tom DeLay all name names Tom DeLay our chief Republican in the Congress and the house (00:19:41) who you praise in your book (00:19:42) by praising the book for his work ethic because he does he works his tail off (00:19:46) but he works his tail. He sent a group of taxpayer-financed they were on leave but they were taxpayer Employee's Federal Employees to Florida to Stage a near-riot people were beaten. They stood out in front of the vote counting area in Miami-Dade like a Banana Republic like banana Republicans and (00:20:07) they screamed and yelled and beat on the glass and they beat people up. A cop in Miami not by not necessarily by these guys, but (00:20:15) a cop in Miami was beaten with a baseball bat. I mean, this is nuts that's Banana Republic stuff. That's third world's. I don't mean to criticize our friends in the third world. I'll (00:20:23) get all the mail now, but they actually been doing a better job. I do (00:20:26) campaigns overseas still and they laugh at us now. So the political will that the Republican showed was far greater. I think it was very chilling though because it showed me that they don't really care so much about democracies. They did about power now. The lawyer ring was on the level and I respect the way the bush team lawyer their operation and they did out lawyer Gore but At the end of the (00:20:50) day, I think this is (00:20:52) your view. It's certainly mine. It should never been decided by the United States Supreme Court. Well, and that thing was a disaster and it really helped it helped sort of shake my faith in the one unshakable (00:21:02) institution with area. We're wanted to challenge you a little bit. You know, I there's a famous article written by Richard Posner fifth Circuit Judge and I'm not at all sure that when all the votes were tality would have gone who has way. It's really quite debatable and within the margin of statistical error, but you know, he makes the point in the article. He says, you know, the country needed to have this settled. They trust the Supreme Court Supreme Court's definitive decision maker, they brought us, you know, Brown versus the Board of Education and other things that I think people take pride in. But that's not what the Constitution says. The Constitution is very clear that the authority ultimately lies in the House of Representatives indeed you and I know you remember this from your class that they probably (00:21:58) expected (00:21:59) many times. It would be no majority winner. John Quincy Adams didn't carry the popular vote. You didn't have a majority of the electoral votes and he finally won in the House of Representatives, but is that the way the country views this that ultimately they prefer the Supreme Court that quote non-political body as opposed to a clearly the framers of the Constitution had in mind that and just such events is this the House of Representatives would have the last say (00:22:30) I don't think the country wanted it resolved immediately. I think they had more fun during that thirty five days Civic lessons and they've ever had before the media kept saying people want it resolved immediately, but I thought the country loved it and even if this the house At first I do think I did maybe it was not possible to count but there were thousands and thousands and thousands of liberal Jewish Democrats who voted for Pat Buchanan even Pat Buchanan says don't want my people Pat says I don't want them, you know, (00:23:00) you know Judith that you can and they can't as a matter of law, you know that recant be reconstruct that maybe you're right. It's a matter of law. It may be that we can't unscramble (00:23:06) those eggs. But if you just say who was Florida trying to send to the White House, it's very clear was Al Gore that may not be something we can action take action on I can live with that. What I can't live with is our Supreme Court particularly Thief Justice rehnquist chief justice (00:23:21) rehnquist, who who has we're supposed to keep it up here. I'm sorry. I can't stand the guy I used to believe you taught me this that they wear (00:23:32) these robes and you know, they're all they have, you know, they're above politics and this is a man who has had a jurisprudence of states rights, which you know in Texas where I come from has a very sorted and sullied history. Whoo. Believes that states should have the right to execute the retarded it presumably if they're guilty maybe not execute the elderly execute. The underage should have the right estate can discriminate against its employees federal government can't do anything about it. Alrighty discrimination laws no longer apply to the states. He is a States writer from the word go and all of a sudden he has this Epiphany like Saul on the road to Damascus. He says, well a state can't count the votes the way the state supreme court interprets the state statute to count the state's votes and the federal government has to intervene and this this court appointed by the father of one of the candidates is going to decide who the president is. It's nuts if this happened in a third world country, we would say it was a coup. (00:24:29) Well, I know you don't feel strongly about (00:24:31) this. Again, but the bottom line is this though because but the bottom line is you're right Al Gore should carry his home state. He should have carried New Hampshire. It should he (00:24:41) should he should never have made it close enough that they could have stolen it and that's my party's fault. Not anybody else's (00:24:47) well, one of the things I wanted to talk about were a few Clinton stories because I've heard some of them from you and they're (00:24:53) wonderful to talk about him when I'm not under (00:24:55) oath there. Yes, and (00:24:59) Paul is one of the few from the administration who didn't have massive legal fees. (00:25:04) It's true. And you know, of course, we (00:25:07) have a little story and I'll just tell them that I was in my office one day and I was always giving Paul advice on how to advise the president. (00:25:15) And I was seeking it I (00:25:17) decided I would make a gift to the president Paul was on campus and I gave I had located two pairs of University of Texas boxer shorts and I gave one to Paul and I put the other in a bag with a note to President Clinton and said this is a gift to the Clinton family and would who whichever one of you wears the pants in the family, this is for you. Next thing. I knew I was off the Supreme Court (00:25:48) list. (00:25:50) It was just a joke. It was just a joke. Well, why don't you tell them the end of the story? Well, (00:25:55) so I took it on the level my law school former (00:25:58) Dean says get so I took him to the president and have this wonderful picture made of me holding up the underwear with the president and the vice-president standing on either side of me. This isn't the first year of Clinton's first term in 1993. And I think those shorts now are in Ken Starr's basement somewhere. (00:26:19) They were never subjected to any tests. They were (00:26:21) the (00:26:22) the first most famous pair of underwear in the Oval (00:26:26) Office. What do you think about you were very strong for the president and very articulate as always and you know, you've had a little bit of time that's passed between the time that the impeachment proceedings were brought in the and today in the writing of this book. I think they I think they are audience and the coordinate campuses and here we just be interested knowing that you believed in the man and you defended him sort of what your take was on it and you know and with 20/20 hindsight could it should have come out with our other turns in the road. The President should have taken (00:27:12) well both first off. Although my wife is thousands of miles away. Let me go on record as being strongly against infidelity. But it's nobody's business. But his wife's girlfriends in God's you know, I just don't think it's any of my business who my (00:27:28) boss is feeling (00:27:31) at the same time. And I don't think this is inconsistent a president must never lie. And we deal with this in a book is nobody loves Bill Clinton more than I do in Carmel does but he would have been a lot better off. I don't it just takes a lot but he would have been a lot better off on the first day. He would have said, you know, I did I'm not the first middle-aged guy to have an affair with a young girl at the office, but it might be the worst and I'm very sorry and I need to mend my marriage and if you all will pardon me and leave me alone for a few days, you know, I'm a go, you know get the old wood shampoo from the Rolling Pin that Hillary's got waiting for me. That would have been very difficult. Okay, but preferable so I don't excuse it's not my business to judge his marital life, but I do not excuse I don't take lightly any president saying something false and when I came to realize when he told me that what he had told me was false what he had sent me out to tell you all was false. I took it very seriously and I almost resign And I went away on vacation and I thought about it. I came to this conclusion. He personally asked for my forgiveness the way he did the whole country but alone and in private and I won't go beyond that, but he asked me to forgive it in my religious tradition that becomes my moral obligation my religious obligation to forgive him and it's not easy personally as well. He's you know, he created my career. I wouldn't be here but for Bill Clinton and I owe him a debt of loyalty and then professionally I felt very strongly that I didn't actually work for Bill Clinton. I worked for the country. I work for the United States of America and I thought it was while I was furious with Clinton. I thought it was not a close call on impeachment if the Republicans have not tried to impeach him. I might have felt free to quit but I thought and I'm proud now that I stayed because I believed then and I know now I was defending the Constitution if they hit him peached and removed this man for this sin. That would have forever diminished and undermine the presidency and it would have been I think a horrific act and I was so proud that even the Republican Senate acquitted him of all that and threw it all out in a country stood by him and you know, so I think you know, he did the wrong thing in the first instance and it was a terrible sin, but I frankly would his political enemies used that to take advantage of and try to overturn the election. They lost was even worse. (00:29:53) That's a question. I wanted to ask. I mean there is this question of high crimes and misdemeanors and how this fits and I think you know, if you're going to argue along that line, you really have to talk more about the misrepresentation than the underlying conduct, but you always was an edge of VMS in the to furtive attitude. Toward Bill Clinton, which I frankly just don't remember. You know in other presidents of one party or the other and the first lady at one point said she thought there was a right wing conspiracy and so forth. But at least I sense it. How do you explain that? It wasn't just the other guy. You don't see this so much with Democrats and Bush right now, but what is it that explains what seems to be the contempt the hatred really that so many people of the opposite party had for President Clinton, (00:30:55) you know, I honestly I don't know I've thought about this a lot. There is a Cadre of people who he just drove crazy. And I mean I look I have one of my proudest possessions. I have two binders each about three four inches thick of hate mail and my secretary put them together for and it's just the greatest hits. It was not every piece. I got it was just the (00:31:14) stuff that she thought was like really good and I mean back then I had (00:31:20) briefings on Anthrax in the mail because we never got any but we were we were that Read to me he engender that kind of hatred and those of us who went out publicly to defend him. You know, I loved it. I always liked it because it meant I was doing my job and I was if I was really pissing them off I was serving my country I thought And I don't know what drives it. I think (00:31:39) among the poor deserve the Congressional Medal of (00:31:41) Honor. That's the test among the partisans on (00:31:44) Capitol Hill. I think that they understood his talent that they said whoa, wait a minute man. This guy has the combination of skills that I think we haven't seen since Franklin Roosevelt as able as Ronald Reagan was and he was very able. He didn't have the depth of policy command that Clinton had and Clinton was in some ways a better Communicator in some ways a worst communicator but a communicator on a par with Ronald Reagan, so we haven't seen his like since FDR and I think the Republicans said look what FDR did he change the world? We can't let this guy out of shooting. We can't have we can't give him a clear day and I think it was the politics of personal destruction. I disagree with Hillary. It was not a conspiracy. It was very overt. They were very upfront about it. They're very honest about it. They said we hate him we wanted to go down and I took what put tries that I don't know. I think though at least among the partisans in Washington. It's this fear that if we had given this guy a clear shot at the track he to change the whole (00:32:40) world. Well, you know, let me try another theory just to see what you say that you know, Bill Clinton was Them son of an alcoholic and he was perhaps a brilliant speaker. I mean, I only heard him a few times one of the most verbally Adept charismatic people. I think I've ever accounted ever met encountered is it that the idea is that you know that he could talk you out of anything that he could talk you into anything that you know, he was just so verbally Adept it was sort of very hard to lay a glove on him. I am I missing (00:33:18) some solutely a Newt Gingrich (00:33:20) used to say that Newt Gingrich would say I'd go over there and I'd leave and he would he would clean my clock. This is new Gingrich. He's very he's a brilliant man to begin with and pretty hardcore partisan and he hated going into negotiations with Clinton and that can make you crazy. But go and read Jeffrey words book about FDR first-class temperament. That's what they think. They got the title from Oliver Wendell Holmes jr. Who said of Roosevelt? He does not have a first-class intellect, but he has first-class temperament Roosevelt was slick Frank everybody who came into his office thought they were getting their way Abe Lincoln was that way he was slick as he could be and so I actually want a president whose slick, you know are more rigid president's, you know, maybe Coolidge or Wilson some would say Jimmy Carter who I admire but was very rigid have generally been less successful than the ones who make it crazy at their ability to co-op the other side. Would you (00:34:14) like to help me with that flat tax? (00:34:23) I got some people tougher than nude out there. Okay enough. Why don't you have any (00:34:34) other Clinton stories? I mean, I think it is fun. You said, you know there used to be that joke that Al Gore was one Big Mac away from being president and about these late nights and donuts stands and how engaging the president was was that an invention. Was that the real Bill Clinton who put them on a diet (00:34:56) Hillary and a guy named Dean ornish not here sell Dean's books. But he's one of these diet doctors a University of Texas graduate who's a friend of mine from from from college days and Dean helped him drop a bunch of weight after the election and he came in and actually helped Hillary fired the chef who was a classically trained French chef and it's a little controversial but she brought in a new Chef who to his credit the current president first lady of kept on (00:35:23) who's he had that sort of power in the one (00:35:25) day. She could fire the chef. She also had buddy neutered which I did not particularly. (00:35:34) I'm kidding. (00:35:39) She brought in this new Chef who was able to cook a wonderful new American Cuisine. It was more low-fat and he worked hard at that and you know, it's interesting. These people are people to these politicians. And at one point he said to me, you know, I wish those guys on late night TV would stop with the Big Mac stuff. You have quit eating that I've been so good-looking. I've lost 30 pounds whatever and like a fool. I called a friend of mine who writes for Jay Leno name is and this is the dumbest thing you can do is to debate these guys. So I called him I said his name is John Max. I said, you know Max maybe you haven't noticed but the president's lost a bunch of weight. He doesn't go to McDonald's anymore get off it and he said Mikela J is going to have to jokes on Clinton for as long as he's in office eaten and cheating. So if I were you I'd get his ass back to McDonald's (00:36:25) and it turned out to be prescient freshened advice from Jay Leno's top joke writer, you know, what's hot, you know, your job was to (00:36:34) travel with Bill Clinton and And you read a my judgment had the tougher assignment, you know that James, you know, he stayed and where was it? Where was a little rock around it was the you know the sort of general of the campaign and you're traveling around the country and getting the governor then Governor ready for each day's campaign. And you what was your toughest job? How did you interact with him? We was it always peace and Harmony (00:37:06) quiet between the two of you. He's a he's a brilliant man. He's a whole lot smarter than I am and he's very strong-willed man. Those are all good assets and attributes of the president the terrible attributes and political candidate, you know, you want malleable pliable stupid preferably you hunt and he was none of those things and so we would have and I don't mind this is the way I do business to we would have screaming profane arguments every day. Why are we doing this? Why are we doing that? And and you know, and I would (00:37:37) say You want to trade you want to switch? I'll run for president you go do all the work. You know, I'll get millions of people cheering me and you know, it's kind of that's how campaign works though. It's not it's not as (00:37:47) formal and sort of hierarchical is the well-ordered University that you're right. Oh, yeah, we're (00:37:50) very, you know, I like to say Paul (00:37:54) to University. It's like being manager for Cemetery there many people under (00:37:58) me. No one's listening. But he my moral suasion doesn't think like that far, but but I'm intrigued by this go ahead. He was the best boss in the world that way though because (00:38:14) you you learn actually he hated yes-men and I won't say who but there was someone in our campaign who always was yes. Yes. Yes and he wound up being very marginalized and that's a great strength. It's actually a strength of bush has as well Bush want strong people around him. He doesn't strike me as a guy who only wants. Yes men and yes women around him and Clinton was the same way. He loved the give-and-take. He loved the fighting in the arguing and he would reflexively take the other side. Even if you agreed with you just to tease out the argument so and on a personal level as a boss again, I don't mind a yelling and screaming I'm that way myself, but when there's a human Dimension some politicians treat people like me like dirt where the hired help and he treated me like family and when Anna in that campaign, My wife and I had our first child and three weeks before the baby was due. We started the first bus trip and we started it at in New York City at the convention. We're going off through New Jersey to the Midwest and as I was getting on the bus with her put his arm around me said you're not getting on this bus. Diane's gonna have that baby. It might come early. Here's your ticket. You're going home. And I won't you come back until the baby's born in safe. And I said, oh no, it's fine. You know, he said because I was going to go but not three weeks early and he said my father never lived to see me born. And the greatest day of my life. Is it even if I become president of greatest day of my life is when I held Chelsea in my arms it was there when she was born and you are not going to miss this and he paid my salary in the campaign for four weeks three weeks before one week after to be with my wife and a baby came and in any other campaign first off they would have paid you second off. You wouldn't get the seat next to the candidate again. If you surrender that seat that's precious real estate some other sharp. He's gonna be sitting there having elbow view aside telling the candidate. Well, I'll pause a nice guy, but you know, he's got these other priorities. I'm the one who's really want to see you elected. He held that seat right there for me and the I breeds a loyalty in a leader that yeah cost him four weeks of my work, but I bought him now 10 years of my undying loyalty (00:40:13) but yet, you know was a dick Morris and do I have the right name right there when when he was hired. You left the Clinton White House and I can't remember I think George Stephanopoulos stayed through that period Then wrote his book afterwards. What about what about that? I mean you did have that loyalty from him during the campaign, but obviously something went awry at that point. (00:40:40) Well, we lost 59 how seeds and 9 Senate seats and I was his chief political advisor. So, you know can't (00:40:46) you know go ask go Red McCombs here. You can't fire (00:40:49) the whole team, you know. So Dennis Green who's a great coach. He's out the window. He lost faith is political team including me and so he turned to this guy Dick Morris who I had only met once in my life and maybe it was unfair, but I did not like him and I was not going to work with him. And so I went back to Texas bought a house in Austin got a job at the university did some we've got a job at a PR firm and then I went to Clinton to tell him I was quitting because I knew he could talk me out of anything. And he said, oh don't you know, I just didn't want to work with this guy and I told him that and he said please just stay and I said, no, you know, we got this 13th Amendment there my law school education coming back to help me. There's no more slavery in America. You can't force me to do work. I don't want to do and I never publicly said that at the time because it wasn't right wouldn't be loyal to undermine the president's new political team. But at the same time I didn't like Morris I wasn't going to work with him. I didn't think he was ethical maybe I was wrong. Maybe I was right but you know, I had to sort of do that on my own terms, but my view of the Loyalty was I had a right to quit but I didn't have a right to attack him after quitting. I kept my mouth shut (00:42:00) other things. I wanted to ask you you represented Bill Clinton or work for Bill Clinton. You worked for governor, Casey and Pennsylvania Harrison Wofford. I remember Gary Kephart. Now, they are all Democrats. They all shared many positions. I mean, that's that's clear, but they're not they weren't so carbon. These have each other. I mean Casey was a pro-life on the abortion issue Democrat (00:42:26) and against an exception for rape. And incest. I mean the most pro-life position you can (00:42:30) hand and on other issues Kephart had the views on the international trade which I vaguely remember when I totally consistent with the president's and all that. You know, how do you draw those lines mean every profession has and it's not unique to you. I mean their accounting firms were having (00:42:46) problems (00:42:48) clients and one thing I told him is you never destroy the records ever. Yeah. How did you deal with that? I mean in a way you're a Hired Gun and that's fair people are entitled to the best political Consultants on the other hand. You do have a point of view presumably you're human and thoughtful. How did your modulate all that? Oh, how did you decide who you would work for who not and when do you let your own views and true did not intrude (00:43:16) some of it is personal first off. Let me point out a personally that That actually is a question that Judy asked on the radio show last week, but you took it and made it your own just seamlessly. That was very clintonian one. That (00:43:26) plagiarism is my Hallmark pretty good if you can't plagiarize at home, where can you plagiarize but that's right to privacy of your own home between a husband and a wife is dead. (00:43:40) When when I would work for politicians a lot of it was personal chemistry Carville and I very nearly went to work first for Tom Harkin than for Bob Kerrey. And then finally we interviewed with Clinton and really fell in love with him and on the issue front. I am very much a Democrat but I'm a Democrat more on these economic issues than on the social issues my own view, which is mine. Is it the Democratic party? What ought to unify Democrats is Economic Opportunity for particularly for middle class and poor people that kind of of that set of issues. So I have former clients who voted for the Bush tax cut. I will never work. Them again period you can be for abortion. You can be against abortion. That's fine with me, but I'm never going to work for somebody who I think is you know, hurting poor people to help rich people now everybody's different do I know people who are very very strong on the social issues like abortion and could never work for someone that doesn't hold their views their I respect that for me. It's those economic issues that drive the train and everything else I can I can deal (00:44:43) with do you think the Democrats are vulnerable sometimes when I'll Loosely call it political correctness type arguments and to the point and without identifying exactly what they were maybe you want to do that but in some ways, you know, the there's some times more heat on the on the social cultural issues than there even is on how large a tax cut should be or whether you put more money in the Medicaid or something. What's your analysis of (00:45:13) that? Anchor right and I get so frustrated by that the truth is the world will little note nor long remember to pick up a current. Percy whether one of your future speakers Cornel West is teaching at Harvard or at Princeton it's a big social controversy right now, my friend Larry Summers is a president Harvard. He desperately would like to keep these star faculty members, but forgive me if I don't give a damn which Ivy League school Professor West teaches at he's a brilliant scholar. He's going to be at home at some wonderful University may be here but I don't care if he's in the speaker series. I know (00:45:43) he's coming out. That's when they put a plug in for (00:45:45) that and that there are a lot of people who care desperately about that right now. There's this huge Contra top going on not just at Harvard but to the Washington press in New York Press and I just don't give a damn meanwhile in Anniston Alabama The Washington Post reported this that the Monsanto corporation for 20 or 30 years have been dumping pcbs. Into the water source, of course in the African-American part of town cancer rates are through the roof there they knew about it for years. They did nothing about it. (00:46:15) Now, that's a life and death issue. That's what people ought to be screaming and yelling and protesting about not (00:46:20) which Ivy League school has which genius scholar and so I my life I try anyway my political life to really make it revolve around things that actually will transform someone's life not these sort of symbolic social issues which while they do matter they matter to a rather small slice of people compared to the enormous number of people who are disenfranchised when the state of Texas is no longer allowed to offer affirmative action. For example, when we were at the University of Texas, that's a huge issue that I think people out of fight and scream about as opposed to these more (00:46:54) talk a little bit about the media and I really did enjoy the Stephanopoulos book and it may have told all but not enough for me and and I thought was quite Written and but it says the media is for political figures both your best friend. And your worst enemy. And in your book you say attack dammit attack is a section of your of your book like you explain that a little bit, you know, we live in a world of very different than the past. You know, you just don't have three networks. You have multiple outlets and you're much more coverage and instantaneous in all that. Is it a good thing? You also say one point that being negative is or can be a good thing. And if I miss quoted you correctly. I mean that's sort of this notion most of us have of the War Room, you know, that volley was fired and you shot back immediately and why is that good politics? Is that good for the country? Is that are not just good politics (00:47:58) both and he's terrific politics is terrific for the country the highest turnout election. I ever saw I didn't participate in at that ever saw. Was the governor's race in Louisiana between Edwin Edwards and David Duke? The most negative campaign in American modern American history and it got more people out. (00:48:14) They were both right they were right one side. The other was not see the other side. The other was a crook and what the hell they were both right now if you're in a that's an extreme case, but Jonas in a situation like that and you find out that your opponent was a klansman and you don't tell it. I mean, I don't believe in sort of strictly positive campaigning at all. I think attacks should be (00:48:34) about policy not personalities or not personal, you know personal qualities, I think attack should be on the record. They should be fair. They should be factual but they should be mean (00:48:45) absolutely if somebody, you know votes to raise taxes and you don't like that you should say is that big tax-and-spend liberal right? If I don't like a tax cut because it gives all the money to Kendall a for example to pick a name out of the air. I should have a right to say that That's how politics ought to be fought. I mean people are tough. It's a tough country, you know, and I just I think that this is sort of your mealy-mouthed view that all we should just all sit here from Marquess (00:49:09) of Queensberry rules. But if first I would bore the voters to death, I think if there were more negative campaigns more people would turn out to vote. So I'm all for attack (00:49:18) politics if it's on the record and it's about ideas. (00:49:21) What do you do? You know, and I think the audience would be interested in your in your comments on this. Everyone's looking for a leg up in the media just like they are and many areas of life and you gave me some examples from the bush Clinton race of events that never happened and as I wanted a third maybe share them with us and and sort of how to you as an advisor. You know, how does how does the truth ever kept catch up with the lie, (00:49:50) and that's a great. Well, this is great Mark Twain saying right that the truth is halfway around the the LIE is halfway around the world before the truth even pulls its boots on and that was before Fox News (00:50:01) that was you know before Matt drudge that way (00:50:04) before you're not good at no Spin Zone. (00:50:08) That's just a fact (00:50:10) it's very difficult. Here's an example that we're talking about before President Bush senior George HW Bush was not shocked to see your grocery scanner. I can actually see you show of hands how many people didn't know that how many people thought Bush was like astonished to see a simple grocery scanner. Guess what never happened the way that they reported it. I've talked to people who were there. I wasn't there but I talk to people who I trust who were there Bush was that some sort of like National Grocery manufacturers convention and they're showing the latest technology and I think it was some new generation scanner that would scan the whole card at once or something. But even if it was a regular scanner Bush was being polite. He was being what a president does and I'm sure you have to do this with the biggest watermelon or whatever. You know, I mean, (00:50:55) yeah, I got a standing rule Clinton had to do that all the time. You gotta send their own by I've never seen anything like them isn't that impressive and that's what the president was doing Bush senior. (00:51:04) He was not shocked to see a grocery scanner. He (00:51:07) that Bush was Phi Beta Kappa at Yale. Okay, he was he was a very smart man and he knew exactly what a grocery scanner was but it fit the presses (00:51:18) Master Narrative of bush as a clueless guy who didn't understand how normal people worked now. I actually thought that was true in the large sense. That specific was false, but it didn't matter. It fit the storyline, so it went example from Clinton's day. How many people know about Bill Clinton getting a haircut on Air Force One delaying air travel for thousands of people. Never happened utterly. Holy false. He got a haircut on Air Force One. The only people he delayed with the 10 reporters who were on the plane with him. When that first happened I said that because it's acid that's rude. How can you do something like that? He was pounding the chairs that I told the captain has a colonel who in who flies Air Force One by the way in those in those days the colonel who flew Air Force One was a graduate of Texas A&M. He was an Aggie made me very nervous every time I got on that plane, (00:52:11) but he says I can't remember the name (00:52:12) that I told Colonel whatever his name was that and he assured me we weren't delaying any air traffic. And so I let the guy cut my hair even Clinton believe the new story until a few months later under a freedom of information request a couple of newspapers USA Today and the Associated Press got the logs from the FAA and found out that it was completely false not a single plane had been delayed and it was a disgruntled reporter on the plane who said that because he was being delayed he was being inconvenienced and you know, maybe Clinton owes an apology for that but thousands of Americans were not inconvenience 10 hotter boys out of Washington were and so they spread this lie all across (00:52:48) the country, you know, Paul. We really don't have haircuts (00:52:51) candles. And between would like between you and Ventura, that's the arrow Club for Men around here. And we feel the governor. I feel the people have a soft spot as so to speak for hair challenged (00:53:06) individuals. We're very PC. In fact, there's some scientific literature in this is not that we don't have follicles that just so small people can't see them (00:53:17) and genomics (00:53:18) will solve this sucker someday. I would be remiss out of order just to Simply say what's your take on Jesse Ventura and I want to for the audience here and across Minnesota. I want to disassociate (00:53:35) myself from anything. Then I have nice. I have never met (00:53:43) him in person. But I've interviewed him by a satellite and as a as a talk show guest he was extraordinary his terrific very quick-witted very authentic. I like a healthy dose of smartass in my politicians. I like that about Bush. I like it about Ventura anybody who gets in the arena anybody who particularly this guy beats the to entrench parties. I have to admire. Okay, you gotta admire success. I admire that I'm never going to run for office. Believe me and so my hats off to him. It's as a Democrat course, I'd rather see a democrat in there, but it's going to be interesting to see as the election unfolds if he runs which he seems like he will how people well if weather and when that disarming Candor becomes alarming misstatements, right? I mean, I've seen the statements about Religion being a crutch for weak people. Okay, I don't live in the states and not my business or judge that but I imagine there's a lot of church-going people in Minnesota who took offense to that Jay Leno had a great line on that. He said oh, yeah, unlike pro wrestling. (00:54:53) You know Governor. That was Jay Leno. Not me. The my favorite was when he said he wanted to come back (00:55:04) in reincarnation as a 38 double d brassiere. (00:55:08) It was in an interview with Playboy. And actually that's why I said it turns out the only boobs in that magazine or not in the centerfold. They apparently are in the interview section as well. So I like it was entertaining. I don't know how he's doing. This governing is (00:55:20) that you know, you talk about master narratives before other different standards for different politicians. I really mean that seriously, I think since we're leave President Bush or vice president Gore Senator daschle had made some of those statements the would have been a much I think a much more extended you are is they're sort of modulation the way the public views a particular person that makes them more or less accepting of (00:55:48) comments. You're right like just like the master narrative with Bush was he was out of touch in the master narrative Clinton was it he sort of gone Hollywood Master narrative my future is he just a straight-talking average Joe and so you can he can get a whole lot more leeway. I for one. Hope we cut all politicians that much leeway though. I hate political correctness and I say this as a liberal, I think PC does more damage to liberals and it does to conservatives case in point Bill Clinton famously. Lee said the era of big government is over. The original line which was supposed to be the line out of the speech was yes, the era of big government is over, but we must never return to a time of every man for himself still making the case for activist government helping the disenfranchised and the PC police in Clint Administration cut that out because you can't say man. So they changed it to get this something like the era of big government is over, but we (00:56:47) must never again return to the days when neighbors didn't care about neighbors are blah blah blah blah blah what so every editor with any sense chopped off the be S on the end. It just ran the first half the conservative half and (00:57:00) it you can tell it still makes me angry. That's PC (00:57:03) killing an important liberal principle, which is you don't have to have big (00:57:06) government to have activist government that cares about poor people. (00:57:09) How did you know that that's another subject in your book. But you know, that is the sound bite, you know, and that's that would could have been a whole bite. It was sort of half by the way they got in and I had a good friend Bob Strauss who was in Faster under President Carter and I said Bob they're always seem to you always seem to just get the ball know. They always got any said markets here is my strategy. They interview me 20 minutes and I totally incomprehensible confused and I say nothing intelligible except for two sentences, and they Always quote those two (00:57:42) sentences. That's the only thing they understood during the whole (00:57:45) interview. He also told me never run for political office unless your constituents need to use a long distance phone to reach you. That was his he believed in local government just didn't want to be a part of local government. How did you train him? And what's your advice to the candidates? You know, you say tens of thousands of words every day, but you're really on that sound bite. (00:58:12) How did you do that Clinton hated that he hated the turn of the sound bite in 1968. The average sound bite from presidential candidate was 42 seconds today. It's a date. And Clinton you say I can't say anything meaningful in eight seconds. Well, how about do unto others as you would have them do unto you it is about three seconds. It's pretty powerful thought there. How about as I would not be a slave owner nor would I be a Slave? (00:58:39) That's it. You can speak and I would try to train these politicians. You can say powerful truths (00:58:43) in a limited amount of time. It just takes discipline and I did this with clean actually I use John 3:16 for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but shall have everlasting life Clinton the southern baptist. He knows his Bible. I thought I could connect with him. (00:58:57) So I go through that with Clinton We time it out. It's like (00:58:59) 6 seconds and I say Governor if the Lord God can explain every important principle of Christianity in six seconds (00:59:07) surely you can tell us if you for the balanced budget amendment had no discernible impact on Bill Clinton. I always remind our (00:59:15) people to Gettysburg Address was 220 some words, you know, I mean his little more than eight seconds, but there was a Lincoln got a great deal into that somewhat more than we do in our average report (00:59:27) University of Minnesota president Mark yudof talking on Tuesday with political strategist Paul begala co author of a new book titled buck up suck up and come back when you follow up conversation was the Installment in a new lecture series sponsored by the used College of continuing education titled great conversations. We should note by the way that there is going to be a lecture every month is part of the series to Spring. Next one is an architecture and it's scheduled for February 19th. Well that does it for our midday program today? I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us. If you missed part of our conversation with Ralph Nader will have that on at nine o'clock tonight. And of course all of our middays available all the time on our website, Minnesota Public Radio dot-org Sarah Mayer is the producer of our program and we had help this week from Clifford Bentley and Michael coup. I'm Gary eichten. Thanks for joining us today Walter Mondale Will Be Our Guest on Monday. Join us on sound money this week when Steven schoenfeld of Barclays Global Investors shares the hows and whys of investing overseas Saturday morning at 10:00 and Sunday afternoon at 5 on Minnesota Public Radio. You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. We have a sunny Sky a table of windchill three below at Kinder wfm 91.1 Minneapolis. And st. Paul partly cloudy through the afternoon. It could hit 15 above today flurries tonight with an overnight low to above 28 above then tomorrow partly cloudy with a high in the low 20s on Sunday snow again a high in the middle 20s.