(00:00:00) With news from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Greta Cunningham a news task force is meeting for the first time today to discuss the future of the Twins and funding for sports stadiums in Minnesota Republican representative. Kevin good no of Moorhead is a member of the stadium task force. He admits the stadium task force may be more Pro Stadium than the general public who could now says unlike previous task Force's this one will have a variety of people and options. (00:00:23) This one involves the house senate and the governor's office. Let's try partisan. We're trying to do a mix of legislators and citizens. So it's well, it's just an effort to try to bring everything (00:00:35) together. What does says unlike previous task Force's the current group is charged with looking at the stadium needs of all Minnesota's professional sports teams and the Gophers Polaris Industries is recalling about 12,000 all-terrain vehicles because the rear wheels can lock which could cause drivers to lose control and crash the Minnesota company has received reports of seven incidents of loose screws in the transmission that cause the wheels to lock the recalled ATVs Are the 2000 2001 and 2002 model year Expedition 425 with 5-speed manual transmissions Northwest Airlines says if you're flying somewhere for the Thanksgiving holiday, you need to arrive at the airport only an hour and 15 minutes before flight time that's down from the two hours Northwest and most other carriers advise shortly after the September 11th attacks an airline. Spokesman says Northwest has greatly improved security procedures and the airline is confident. It can handle the large Thanksgiving crowds, but most travel agents and the Metropolitan airports commission are saying air Travelers should get to the airport at least two hours before departure the forecast for Minnesota today calls for partly sunny skies. Statewide high temperatures today will range from 40 in the Northeast to 58 in the southwest right now in the Twin Cities cloudy skies and 34 degrees. That's a news update. I'm Greta Cunningham. (00:01:48) Thanks Greta, six minutes past eleven o'clock programming and Minnesota Public Radio is supported by Ordway Center for the Performing Arts presenting Mark Twain's classic The Prince and the Pauper as a new musical premiered. December 19th to January first tickets available at 651224 42 for two to 26512244222. And good morning. Welcome to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us while most of the focus in Afghanistan has been on the war. There is another story unfolding in that country namely the story the women of Afghanistan shedding their head to toe Burke has hundreds of Afghani women gathered in Kabul yesterday to demand their rights after five years of Taliban rule the Northern Alliance which Now controls the city band a planned women's March putting it off for a week saying that they had been given no warning about the woman's intentions. But the leader of the March says the women will not give up their goal say the women is to win a place at any meeting convened to discuss the shape of a future Afghan government the Gathering in Kabul yesterday follows a new rhetorical offensive by the Bush Administration first lady Laura Bush went on National radio over the weekend to decry which he called the brutal oppression of women in Afghanistan. Saying that such oppression is one of the central goals of the terrorists Secretary of State Colin Powell says that Afghan women must have a voice in the new Afghan government these rights. He says are not negotiable, but how much can the u.s. Do to promote women's rights without meddling in the internal affairs of the Afghan. He's but about other countries where women are not accorded the same rights as their recorded in the west joining us today to discuss. This issue is Barbara fry a professor of international human rights and director of the human rights program at the University of Minnesota's Institute for Global Studies. She is also the chair of the Twin Cities committee on foreign relations and last year. She was elected to serve as an alternate member of the United Nations sub-commission on the promotion and protection of human rights, as always we invite you to join our conversation. We're talking this our about women's rights in Afghanistan and elsewhere around the world and how u.s. Foreign policy should promote those rights. Give us Here six five one two two seven six thousand. That's our Twin City area number six five. One two, two seven six thousand outside the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll-free. And that number is 1-800-218-4243 or 1-800 to for to to 828 our prai. Thanks for coming by today. (00:04:39) Thanks for having me Gary. (00:04:41) How important in your mind is it that women be included in any planning for a new government in Afghanistan. (00:04:47) I think it's a tremendously important policy statement and envisioned by the Bush Administration in this regard obviously women's human rights have been at the center of the criticism of the Taliban has human rights record over these period of years that they have been in control. They have had the most repressive tactics of any of the Islamic States in in regard to Two women not just the physical manifestations that we think of the wearing of the burqa, but also just completely taking away the right to education of women and girls even primary literacy which in any studies of cultures. We understand that the lower the literacy among women the more economic social and ultimately I would argue political problems that result. So I think it's I think it's an important move. Of course, it won't be one without criticism since the United States represents the ultimate in individualistic approach to women's rights something that has been rejected not just by the more severe countries like Afghanistan, but even more moderate countries tend to to have different opinions about the role of Women in culture, but I do think by raising it to a level of significance in this change of power that it will it will add some legitimacy to our involvement there and it will at least raise the level of discussion within the country. (00:06:38) If you if you're a Bush Administration policy maker how far do you push this issue? If for example the people who would otherwise be involved in there supposed to be a meeting coming up here shortly now to discuss putting together at least an interim government if those folks say no we have our people here and they don't happen to be women how critical is it in terms of overall human rights policy for the Bush Administration to push this and say, well you have to include women. I mean to the extent that they have any control over this process. (00:07:18) Well, I think Let me separate the question into strategic political interests and and human rights interest. First of all, I have to believe that one of the reasons the Bush Administration has decided to push this particular issue right now is they see it as a way of slowing down the warlord's Takeover and pragmatic control of these areas that they have that they have liberated in the past 10 days or so and that that I would guess that by injecting this new issue and involving basically a new source of leadership or potential leadership in the discussion that at at a minimum it slows down the ability of the former repressive Warlords to just resume their positions again, and an exercise as much Authority as possible. So it's in some ways. I see this as a wrench in the Machinery that the Bush Administration is intentionally doing for foreign policy reasons in terms of how important is it for Rice priority. Well, I think it's fundamentally important. I think that women's human rights have as I've said they have shown to have had intimate connections to the well-being of cultures around the world and that when women are involved in at a minimum making decisions over their own lives in terms of having control of property having the ability to educate themselves and who make money for themselves and to provide for their children and and then ultimately the ability to determine when and and how often to have children or whether to have children that those are decisions that have you know, the most significant far-reaching effects upon any society. So I have been saying publicly that I think that this is a way that that the Bush Administration can bring a higher Vision to it. Its actions in Afghanistan and it can single-handedly make the difference there has to be some buy-in in the Islamic community and in Afghanistan itself to have any real long-lasting changes, but I think it's a I think it's an interesting and legitimate (00:09:36) move. We have all seen the pictures of the burkas. They have come to symbolize in some respects this this issue of women's rights in Afghanistan and elsewhere. When when we look at those pictures from your perspective. What should we see? Should we see the oppression of women or should we see religious (00:09:58) expression? Well, it depends on whether they're worn voluntarily or not. And then again the question of what is voluntary and what isn't in the in the context of a culture that doesn't give you free information is you know is another level of the question certainly we see Varying degrees even in Minnesota these days at the University are or around the Somali community and all sorts of communities and and no one no one is interested in telling those women that they don't have the right to wear. Whatever religious attire. They feel is appropriate. I mean, we see it in every religion in our culture. The question is whether it's by choice or whether it's imposed and the real difficult human rights issue is dealing with governments who govern using religion who use religion as the basis of their government. It's very hard to argue against them and say you're a practices are violating human rights. All their whole reaction is going to be well, these are divinely mandated rules and and therefore we have to we have to live by them because our people want to be ruled by the Koran or whatever. The religious basis is but the question is how many of those governments are actually representative governments how many of those people actually have a voice in whether they want to be part of a religious religiously Ron government or not. These are the real sticky issues in in human rights and in ultimately in in foreign policy, I'd say in the next half century Barbara (00:11:41) fry is with us. She's a professor of international human rights and she's director of the human rights program at the University of Minnesota's Institute for Global Studies joining us this hour of our midday program to talk about the issue of women's rights specifically in Afghanistan, but elsewhere as well and how that should bear. If it should bare it all on u.s. Foreign policy. Give us a call here at 6512276 Thousand. That's our Twin City area number six five. One two, two seven six thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800 to for 228286. I've won two 276 thousand or 1-800 to for to 220 Janet your first go ahead, please hi. I'm an American and I've lived in Afghanistan and in Saudi Arabia and in Jordan and I've worn the Boudicca in Afghanistan and a lot of the women the majority of the women of the push to in areas where it because they believe that it's the right thing. They're Muslims and that is their cultural way of covering and it's not blinding as some people like to say granted a new one is a little bit more difficult to see if she was in an older one. Once you wear them a while the mesh gets stretched out and you have pretty good line of vision, but I don't think that women's rights. There are just you know, what they're wearing or what they're not wearing a lot of what's going on right now is that the big money groups are pushing organizations like rawa who don't think that One to wear this cover and they're thinking that women are being oppressed because of their covering when actually I think here in America, I think it's makes a pretty big statement for my Independence to be covered. Okay, the rawa group that she referred to as a group that has been promoting women's rights in Afghanistan traveling around we should make that clear. (00:13:45) Yeah, you know, I guess I don't have any disagreement with the collar I think as I've said that people should have the choice to wear whatever religious outfits that they want to wear. I mean, my my aunts were Roman Catholic nuns and they cover themselves up except for their face for most of their life and I don't see anything wrong with that. The difficulty is is the voluntary nature of it if women really want a dress that way I don't think government should force them to take off the burka any more than they force them to put on it. I think you know one one use Way of looking at this is to think about it and if it weren't gender-based issues if it were race-based issues and you lived in a country where the government said all all black people in this country have to dress a certain way have to cover themselves because we don't want to see their black skin. Well in in this era of post-apartheid South Africa and the rest of the world people would be totally outraged at that kind of singling out of a particular group and what and would it would be evidently based on discrimination, but somehow when we mix women into it who you know have four generations been seen at in different cultures as the property of men and we mix religion into it that somehow it's it seen that we can't criticize a practice that's so Fundamentally discriminatory and I think that you know, it's it is a somewhat of a struggle between secular secularization and and and religious Authority but that ultimately it comes down to to freedom and to Choice. Mmm. (00:15:37) If a religion would take the position or interpretation of a religion would take the position that well. This isn't a question of choice at all. This is in Holy Scripture be whatever book that might be what then (00:15:57) hmm. Well, that's what I'm saying is difficult. When a country when you try and argue based on on secular principles, you know, a government is always going to come back and say well these are a religious restrictions but as we see the same religion is interpreted very differently in different religious settings, and there are even factions Within Secular countries that have different interpretations and so fundamentally ends up being who has the stronger military support for his interpretation of Islam. And so ultimately it ends up being a military or you know might is Right argument and that any time you're in a situation where religion where your interpretation of the truth is is fighting against someone else's interpretation of the truth. It's trouble and that's basically why we're in this world conflict right now (00:16:55) Mary your question, please hi. Yeah. Thanks for taking my call. My question is who are the women who would step up to the plate and begin speaking and being free? My concern is in a culture where someone has had no voice. How do they learn to speak? And a second question is is Islam a Eddie the practices the circumcision of young girls and would their freedom to choose how to practice religion without Freedom extend to choosing whether or not to be circumcised at the age of 8 or 12. (00:17:34) Well, you know the Taliban brought in the strictest requirements about women prior to the table on who've been there since we have to look at my math, but I think it's five years or so (00:17:45) Taliban five years Northern Alliance or their factions were control prior from 92. I believe was 295. (00:17:54) Okay, and some of them were more restrictive in their practices towards women, but ultimately you have an adult generation of women, especially the more Elite women in society who have been educated and they were practicing in medicine and in science and in other areas and they were told to go home from their jobs. So in I find in almost all of these cultures you have a really impressive Group of educated women who because they value their education so much because of the limitations on it. They're very capable of getting in and at least learning the business of leadership. And as I say, I think a bit of the tactic here is to is to provide some fresh water in the street in the Stream and even if they're inexperience that they're smart and they have a different perspective and it'll change the social dynamic in the in the government as far as circumcision. It's not my impression that circumcision is practiced in Afghanistan or any of the Muslim countries in Central Asia, but I may be wrong. I'm not an expert on that but I don't think that that's the case (00:19:04) David your question. I had a comment and I'd like to hear some more comment on that in that I've observed that right now the Bush Administration and are somewhat lockstep Free Press is really hammering the towel. And their treatment of women right now in Afghanistan for the most part women are showing their faces. They're on their televised news yet women in our allies Saudi Arabia do not have these rights and in some parts of the Arabian Peninsula particularly rural the cultural norm for women can be matched by the Taliban quite well, and isn't it this kind of a rather contrived in manipulating for our pop foreign policy that's inconsistent root of the problem of Arab or Muslim and Islamic discontent with the (00:19:58) West. I think it's an excellent. Excellent point. I think you have struck on the precise weakness of of the Bush Administration in holding itself out as the champion of women and that is you know, it invites immediate comment on its double standards regarding the allies. It doesn't dare to criticize Saudi Arabia being number one Saudi Saudi Arabia. Didn't he didn't show up to the Beijing conference a little little anecdote here. They they didn't show up to the Beijing conference. And I remember there were crowded conditions in the conference room and everyone knew Saudi Arabia wasn't there so ngos were trying to sneak in sit at the Saudi table and just put the name plate down so that they'd have some good seating and they were always ushered away because the Saudi government made it they they insisted that the chairs behind their name plate be left empty as a statement that they were boycotting this particular meeting. And you know, I mean, I think that this is as a human rights Advocate, I must say, I'm sort of pleased that the Bush Administration is taking this this stance because I I'm hoping that it does come around and whack em in the back of the head so that they have to be more consistent among their Isn't that would be a good thing for women across the region? But in the meantime, I think you're right. It does risk a lot of alienation or further alienation by some of our Arab or Muslim allies who are already suspicious about what our intentions are in the region. Well, what (00:21:38) would what would the administration do say with Saudi Arabia seems to be one of those classic cases where clearly we have national interests want to keep the oil coming. Let's be blunt about it here on the other hand. So what should they what should the administration do with Saudi Arabia cut off all relations because of their treatment of women should the administration give daily lectures to the Saudi government about women's rights or should the administration largely take the position. Look that's an internal Affair. We're not going to get involved in it. (00:22:17) Well Gary if I had the Or that question, I'd probably be sitting on the national security staff right now. I think that is the $68,000 question here. I think that there's a lot of dissent within the administration over what to do the problem in Saudi Arabia. I do think the administration should be looking term looking long-term on oil dependence. But in some ways it's gone beyond that in the sense that if we need Saudi has such a critical partner in the region the current we have good relations with the the king and the current leadership in in Saudi Arabia, but the people who are really bucking at getting into leadership and Saudi Arabia have more in common with Osama Bin Laden probably then then are more moderate allies. And so the the administration is well aware of discontent among the Saudi population at the large levels of corruption among the monarchy and the He in in Saudi Arabia and I think that we realize we have a lot to lose if it gets more unstable because then Saudi will be more of a breeding ground for extremist Islam and and I just think that the reason that we're treating Saudi with kid gloves is because it's so explosive. So clearly the women's human rights issue does not at the top of our agenda and Saudi Arabia and it will not be but the truth is we could build friends around this issue without going straight to Saudi Arabia by building friends. In other more moderate Islamic countries moderate is a you know, relatively speaking not relative necessarily to the west but relative to Saudi Arabia where there where women are in positions of authority and and are providing education and Ultimately, you know if it's just one country. That's the problem we can isolate them. But the problem is Saudi has such important ramifications for the whole region. So it's very very tricky (00:24:30) Jake question. Yes the problem to me. I'm glad that I'm not a political figure to be politically correct in talking about it Islamic were here might take here is that I really do feel that the Islamic world is is very repressive and is very intolerant of other religions. I mean you take for instance the IT people that were capture those that was just recently released. I mean, what do you make of that? I can understand what people don't even talk about this cannot stop. You know, what kind of religion God I don't think God made of To be covered up like that. When I see those women covered up. I can't even find it difficult to breathe. I mean that's that's that's a really incredible situation and that they did I just call a little bit ago talking about she lived in these countries and was able to wear these things and to her that the worry of this covered up stuff. I just find it's unbelievable to me. Okay. Thanks Jake. You're welcome. Well yesterday we heard from Newt Gingrich who said, you know, it's fine if you want to practice the Islamic faith, but let's call a spade a spade and and oppression intolerant Behavior. The suppression of women's rights should be called what it is and not allowed to be height be hidden under the guise of religious Doctrine. (00:26:10) Well, I hate to totally be an agreement with Newt Gingrich, so I'll depart somewhat, but I you know again one wonders what the political agenda is going on behind behind the Republican sudden great interest in this religious expression though truthfully, there has been in the past couple two or three years a lot of focus on religious freedom as a fundamental human right tolerance of different religions and beliefs and as the caller said, you know that we saw the case of the eight Christians or who were tried just merely for supposedly propagating their faith. It's not just repression between religions. Its repression between one interpretation of Islam. And another that we see and there are tremendous violations and I do think we can speak out and use certainly the bully pulpit to express our ideas. I do think that however that we have to be sensitive to the fact that these countries are At different levels of development. There are a lot more subtle subtle layers of political and social power going on than what we understand from outside and we certainly should be cautious before going in and you know, ripping the veils off of women and say Hive liberated you I mean, I don't think that's the approach but I don't mind they're being a public discussion of it. Barbara (00:27:39) fry is with us. She's a professor of international human rights director of the human rights program at the University of Minnesota's Institute for Global Studies. She's also the chair of the Twin Cities committee on foreign relations and an alternate member of the United Nations Commission on the promotion and protection of Human Rights. She's joined us this hour to talk about an issue that is getting increasing amount of attention namely the issue of women's rights in Afghanistan this past week or so. The Bush Administration has launched what amounts to a rhetorical offencive pointing out what the administration says are the abuses that have become. Committed against women in Afghanistan saying that it's a central goal of the terrorists to oppress women and Laura Bush also went on to say over the weekend that it is time to extend the fight for women's rights to other nations as well like to join our conversation about this issue. Give us call six five. One two, two seven six thousand 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800 to for 22828. We'll get to more of your questions here in just a couple minutes (00:28:44) programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by eagle lab dedicated to improving cleaning and sanitation standards for leading Hospitality Healthcare and food processing customers worldwide on the web at Ecolab.com on (00:29:00) Saturday night, December 1st, the diva of the Blues Marcia Ball comes to St. Paul bringing her unique brand of Southern Boogie rollicking Roadhouse Blues and heartfelt balance to the Fitzgerald theater show begins at 8:30 p.m. And tickets are on sale now. Theater box office or Ticketmaster or information? (00:29:17) 651290 1221 or go to Minnesota Public Radio dot Borg click live at the best. So don't forget your membership discount (00:29:25) Minnesota Public Radio relies on listeners to help pay for its programming and operating costs to become a member call 1-800 to to 728 11 or click and join online at Minnesota Public Radio dot org news headlines. Now, here's Greta Cunningham Greta. (00:29:41) Thanks Gary. Good morning. The head of the Northern Alliance says the real decisions on the post Taliban government must take place inside Afghanistan. He says a gathering in Germany next week of various. Afghan factions will be largely symbolic Alliance agreed today to attend the UN sponsored talks and Alliance official says the meeting could take place on Monday Secretary of State Colin Powell is urging other nations to act quickly to help post-war Afghanistan. The state department is hosting a meeting today of 21 Nations and the European Union to consider a huge aid (00:30:12) program for the country. (00:30:12) Pal says Building must start Quigley a federal law enforcement Source says a sample from an Evidence bag containing a still unopened letter to Senator Patrick Leahy contains at least 23,000 Anthrax spores. Scientists are taking a (00:30:26) cautious approach in probing the (00:30:28) letter Federal (00:30:29) officials believe the Leahy (00:30:30) letter was sent by the same person who mailed an Anthrax tainted letter to Senate Majority Leader Tom daschle mail distribution to the Pentagon was halted October 20th after the discovery of Anthrax and a central mail processing facility in Washington and it didn't resume until today in Regional news with holiday air travel about to take off the Minnesota National Guard will be providing extra security at airports around the State starting today. The guard will establish a presence at seven additional airports in the state. The airports are in Bemidji Brainerd Chisholm Hibbing Grand Rapids International Falls. St. Cloud and Thief River Falls, Minnesota guard will continue its Presence at the Minneapolis st. Paul Rochester and Duluth airports the forecast for Minnesota today calls for partly sunny skies. Statewide high temperatures today. Range from 40 in the Northeast to 58 in the southwest right now in Worthington. It's fair and 39 Rochester ports partly cloudy skies and 36 skies are fair and Marshall and 43. It's fair and Duluth and 31 and in the Twin Cities partly cloudy skies with a temperature of 39 Gary. That's a look at the latest (00:31:31) news. Thanks Greta 24 minutes before twelve. This is midday on Minnesota Public Radio. We're talking this hour with Barbara fry who teaches international human rights? She's also the director of the human rights program at the University of Minnesota's Institute for Global Studies. And we're talking this our about women's rights specifically in Afghanistan, but really elsewhere around the world as well and how u.s. Foreign policy should or should not promote women's rights in Afghanistan and elsewhere Abdul your question, please my guardian height the other guests. Hi there. Yes, I would like I just like to make a short comment. I have heard a listen the First lady's speech couple days ago in the radio. And and I think you would I would like to say about the the woman is right here, especially the Afghan women's I think while the most Muslim women and also other Muslim Society in the world will probably appreciate the first lady's comments and what the west or the other societies in the world is trying to you know, tell about Islamic women or the rights. I think one confusion could be you know, the one thing should not be forgotten that Islam have strict rules on dress codes and also social life style or both of both men and women and those are based on Quran. They are based on Islamic Bible. They're not anything that maybe Taliban or somebody else have just created and if some some says, you know, like for example The women have to ease their dress codes or the other cultural lives and do whatever they want to do that that can be considered as offense against Islamic culture and I don't think anybody is trying to do that. But I think that has to be understood that you know, those two things should not be mixed religious Duty under the rights of the person or desire. For example, yeah, for example, I'm Islam Muslim Somali ethnic and we have a lot of Somali women like or Muslim women here even in Minnesota that have their faces and all their body covered and even though I don't know if I can add a little bit of for example, some of the things I have seen in Islamic Afghan women some of you know, I've sinned until efficient. For example, I say ladies being beaten in the streets some shot in the head in public. They are not allowed to go to school. I've heard all those probably have nothing to do with Islam. Islamic beliefs, okay. However, most of the things are thanks Abdul. Thank you. (00:34:20) It's a good distinction Abdul and it's one that I think that we should all as policymakers be concerned about and that is that to try and separate the things that are religious base from the things that are are purely political or power-based. And as I said, I it all has to do with the voluntary nature that the fact that Somali women walk around the Twin Cities fully fully covered is is fine with me as long as they're doing it voluntarily and there are certainly our government isn't telling them that you need to be fully rolled because our government is interpreting Islam. It seems to me that you know, I keep thinking lately that if our Founders the founders of the United States had one brilliant idea and one brilliant idea only which you know, they had many but I Say one of the most brilliant ideas was the separation of church and state and it's something that we as Americans are so, you know so much a part of us. We understand it so well and yet it's something that very few other countries including even in the west have been able to have been able to live (00:35:35) by hmm as these these concerns human rights foreign policy religious belief and so on as they all intersect and Collide to some degree other Let's assume for a moment that people all around the world those who aren't Catholic Roman Catholic decide that you know, women really ought to be allowed to be priests in the Roman Catholic church. And the the Vatican says absolutely not we look at the Bible and we look at our church teachings and that's clearly not part of it. There are many women in the Roman Catholic Church who say well that's baloney and we should be allowed to be (00:36:18) priests. Well, what should the rest of the world do (00:36:20) something about that? Should they try to force the Catholics to change their (00:36:24) beliefs? Well, it's a if they feel that women are the question, you know that yeah. Basically the the Vatican doesn't doesn't run a state except for the Vatican itself. They and so we're not telling Islam to change its religion. We're not telling women to take off the veil were telling women that they should be Howard to have a voice in their own society and fundamentally to be educated I would take the whole focus of the discussion off of the off of religious interpretation and on two fundamental human rights that are part of Islam including the right to education. I don't think there's anything in Islam that says girls should not be taught to read and write and that's how you know that certainly the Taliban that was one of the reasons they were so severe even in Saudi Arabia girls are educated and to me it would be you know, we should look at this issue as one of educating girls and ultimately educating women to have a voice in their own government. So, you know, the Vatican isn't forcing anyone to be a Roman Catholic, but if you leave if you say well I don't believe in the Islamic. Tenants as interpreted by the Taliban or the wahhabi you risk death. So, you know, there's its we're not being religiously insensitive by criticizing government practices in these countries that especially when those government practices have very little to do with with (00:38:14) religion Barbara fry is with us professor of international human rights director of the human rights program at the University of Minnesota's Institute for Global Studies Cafe your next go ahead, please thank you. My comments comes from two sides. What is that in the early 80s at the height of my personal challenge to women's Liberation my irruption into the business world. I spent about six weeks in Saudi Arabia and had the personal experience of being a woman an American woman in space. To culture and came back to America with the distinct belief that women in America can have and be and do anything that they want that most Americans have no idea how much Freedom we truly have compared to the rest of the world. My concern here. Is that American women still we've had the vote for what 80 years in the in our culture. And so I think we need to look at home before we start criticizing to too harshly other cultures because we haven't done that well ourselves as a woman in the business World discrimination harassment is still there on a daily basis. And so we need to recognize that we can't change the the faith the the well-being of women in the rest of the World overnight or in a year or five. Years or ten years that it's you know, it takes many many generations to change a culture as ours has not changed completely even yet our (00:39:59) prai right? I agree with you totally and that's always the risk of criticizing human rights and in having our government criticized human rights in any country is that we have our own human rights problems and believe me are our critics around the world are the first to point all those out though. I rarely hear our critics talking about women not having enough rights in the United States since I must say we are, you know, I think in almost every way were above and beyond protection of women's rights as compared to women in other regions of the world, but and so I guess that we can always work on human rights issues where we find them. If they we find them in their own Community, that's a perfectly good place, but I don't think that that should prevent us from critiquing some of the most severe violations around the world (00:40:58) as the United Nations as an organization taken a position on (00:41:01) this. Absolutely. They almost everybody every human rights body has criticized to the point of condemnation. The taliban's practices towards women the sub-commission that I sit on has an annual in annual resolution criticizing the the Taliban regime for its treatment of women and urging the International Community to do something about it. So I'm very much looking forward to going back this year and seeing what reaction I get from some of my colleagues on that sub commission for the role that the u.s. Is played. My guess is despite the fact that it's promoting a lot of the a lot of the ideas behind the resolution that they won't like it that the United States is the one that's promoting it. That because the United they the a lot of especially the developing countries and other Islamic countries feel like their cultures are already being trampled on by the United States and you know as what the last caller says these things need to be need to take time these Transformations within cultures and they need to be done organically by the people within the culture. And so if there's any if it smells like the u.s. Is imposing its liberal ideas on the west of the rest of the world were bound to get criticized even if the United Nations is on our side fundamentally (00:42:25) again back to trying to be a policy maker US policy maker sounds like you're damned if you do damned if you (00:42:31) don't well, I think it's a matter of style. The United States has done some very good things in the human rights community in the UN and has been a leader in is recognized as a leader on a lot of these human rights issues, but there there's a certain That the United States has about is its interpretation of what are important rights and for instance of the issue of primary education, which I raised is one that I think we could we could promote that and promote Economic Development and economic rights in other countries and the right to healthcare and or at least respect other countries right to raise those issues and instead we tend to say well those aren't as important rights the real important rights are civil and political rights the right to free speech and free assembly and free religion, which are ones that we're comfortable with because they're in our Bill of Rights. So a lot of it is just we need to be in a more listening posture and less arrogant about having it all figured out because we don't as the collars have expressed, you know, we have problems in our own our own community that shouldn't prevent us from criticizing what's going on around the world, but it should make sure that the style in which we do it as one that's respectful and in understanding (00:43:46) Johnny your question. Yes. I'd like to point out that our own Society is very biased and we're being critical whereas in Europe with a may go topless in this Society. They'll be arrested for that. Even though men may go topless their societies where people can go naked and feel right. They'd be arrested in our society for doing the same (00:44:04) actions. That's true that my son's have been to a few swimming pools in Europe and they're shocked. Let me tell you or thrilled one of the to hide. I haven't analyzed the reaction that closely but you know, yeah, uh, you know, we have our own when I said that we're leaders on on women's issues. I actually had that in the back of my mind that actually women have you no more sexual freedom and in some ways in reproductive freedoms in other countries than they do in the United States. And so but you know what, we have a particular culture here and we interpret our rights through our culture just like they do in every other culture and in in the human rights field that you're each state is given a certain margin within which a margin within which it's it's allowed to culturally interpret Norms but governments like the Saudi Arabia or the Taliban or even pakka Dan in my opinion have gone way outside that margin and have used their government power to impose repressive practices on people and I'd say, you know not allowing. I mean we do have some beaches where women can go topless but not allowing public indecency is something that is is part of American culture and that that's within our margin of cultural (00:45:33) appreciation. Kevin York want your comment, please. Yeah. Thank you for your time here. Barban host. I'd like to just go back to the perspective of the non-catholics imposing on Catholics the need to have women priests and my point here is I think our actions in Afghanistan need to not lose perspective were there to decrease the terror threat in the United States and civilized worlds and our actions involving freeing up women's rights should relate to that perspective if they truly decrease the threat of Terror to the United States and the World then I think they're very right and we should do that and I suspect freeing up the women's right will likely decrease some of the terror Threat by throwing some of the warring tribes on their heels a bit and making them except a more balanced view, but we want to be careful We're Not Kids in the candy store running into Afghanistan trying to force our agenda with military personnel to create are mandated cultural norms. And I think we can do that and we really should just remember we're there to decrease the terror threat in the Civilized world and all our actions will pertain directly to that and we should not go beyond that boundary will wind up in (00:46:47) trouble. Yeah. It's an excellent. Excellent point that you make it's one that I want to remind everyone the mission creep problem that we had in Somalia where once we were in to feed the hungry and to Stave off starvation in that country and and then all of a sudden are Our ideas got beyond that and we decided to go after the war Lords and and that ended up in not only a disaster in Somalia, but it it fundamentally affected our ability to be involved in peacekeeping operations for the next 10 years in a negative way. So I think the caller's caution is just extremely important that we should really keep our eye on the ball here. And if the the administration based on its its knowledge of the Northern Alliance and its priorities and the way that it's moving into these vacuums of power is that by promoting women's human rights, we're going to and promoting women in the leadership of these countries that were going to actually achieve the original objectives in a better way than I think this is a legitimate approach, but if not, I think you're absolutely correct that the last we can tread upon culture in this situation the better we are in our attempt to make the future. (00:48:06) You'd better do you think longer term? Do you see what do you see as a trend here during the Carter Administration Jimmy Carter's Administration. The Assumption was that human rights? It really become one of the principal tenants of our foreign policy of u.s. Foreign policy. Then the Assumption was that it it receded in importance to two other concerns. What do you see that heading longer-term? (00:48:33) Well, there have been presidents who have tried to kill the notion of human rights as a basic tenet of u.s. Foreign policy specifically President Reagan who really tried to abolish the positions in the state department having to do with human rights a rename them under the essence of a democratic values, but you know what they've never been able to do that and I think the American people are fundamentally interested in human rights as part of our foreign policy. We want we want to work with allies who Human rights. I think there's a I sense a lot of troubled, you know, people feeling troubled about our relationships with places like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and and other places with serious human rights problems in this current conflict the Clinton Administration continued to to work on human rights issues, maybe not giving them the central priority that Carter at least did in rhetoric but they created a lot of important positions in monitoring mechanisms within their Administration that help further the process and I think that what's interesting about the you know, the relatively new Bush Administration which has been faced with this Monumental crisis is that during the campaign President elect Bush or then-candidate bush said that he had no interest in nation building. He didn't want the United States to be involved with in a big way with peacekeeping all those things. And yet here he is having to look at nation building in Afghanistan and understanding the importance of Human Rights and multilateral relationships. And in his foreign policy (00:50:17) Barbara fry. Thanks so much for coming in today. Thank you. Gary. Good talking with you Barbara fry who is a professor of international human rights. She's also the director of the human rights program at the University of Minnesota's Institute for Global Studies. She's the chair of the Twin Cities committee on foreign relations and serves as an alternate member of the United Nations sub-commission on the promotion and protection of Human Rights joining us this first hour of midday to talk about women's rights in Afghanistan elsewhere around the world and how US foreign policy should promote women's rights five minutes now before 12