(00:00:00) Education reporting on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by Hamlin University's graduate liberal studies program dedicated to Breaking new ground and creative writing and interdisciplinary study for working adults 6 minutes now past 12 o'clock. Good afternoon. Welcome back to midday and Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten. Glad you could join us. Well, it's been two years now since Minnesota's Grand experiment with try partisan government began. And today. We're going to try to find out how it's working Governor. Jesse Ventura says try partisanship is a success legislative leaders Tim pawlenty and Roger mole aren't quite so sure Governor Ventura in a keynote address at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey Institute yesterday afternoon said he can accomplish a lot more as governor and have much more influence in Minnesota and nationally because he's a third party Governor. He also says that minnesotans didn't elect him Governor because he's Jesse Ventura, they elected him because minnesotans want a different kind of leader and more choices in government. After his speech house Republican Majority Leader Tim pawlenty of Eagan and dfl Senate Majority Leader Roger moverse can responded to the governor's address and today on. Midday. We're going to hear from all three as they discuss the question posed by the Humphrey Institute policy Forum yesterday namely moving Minnesota. How is try? Partisan government working to begin? Here's Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura. (00:01:37) First of all, I'd like to start off by reading a quote from a book quote. The two-party system has given this country the war of Lyndon Johnson the Watergate of Richard Nixon and the incompetence of Jimmy Carter saying we should keep the two party system because it is working is like saying the Titanic Voyage was a success because a few people survived on life rafts. The person who said this quote the person who said the quote. Was outspoken known to ruffle the feathers of conventional politicians and could not care less if he offends anyone with his opinions. The media loves him because he's always good for a provocative quote. He's an author of more than one book and lately. He's taken to writing poetry. The person who made that very provocative statement was Eugene J McCarthy. The book that contains this quote was written by another unconventional politician who could not care less if he offends anyone with his opinions and whose quotes are sought very much by the media the book is do I stand alone and the author is Jesse Ventura. They gave me a pause here. You can laugh see they gave me a blank space and there you go. Fill it remember to fill it in for me. Now. You got to work along with me here. You've asked me to come here today and talk to you about try partisan government. You ask is it working? Well, first of all, I think it's safe to say. That it sure isn't any worse than what we had before I was elected. I think that's a safe statement to make. And if you don't believe that maybe just ask Gene McCarthy. Seriously, though. I think that the honest answer to the question is that there is ample evidence that try partisan government is working. I'll talk about that evidence. But first let me address something that I know someone in the crowd will bring up. Someone will say this experiment would try partisan government in Minnesota is not a true test because it is more of a Jesse Ventura phenomenon than a third party a third way of governing. Someone will say that Jesse Ventura and his Celebrity Status skews the landscape and that a more conventional political personality wouldn't have been elected or had the impact that I'm having. Well to that I say bologna the fact is you cannot separate the two Jesse Ventura was the candidate of a legitimate third major party in Minnesota. Whatever you think of Ross Perot's persona. He was a presidential candidate of a legitimate third-party and in 1992. He received 19 percent of the country's popular vote. And more importantly he brought the issue of deficit spending to the table and he caused the Democrats and Republicans to take the issue seriously and to do something about it while some may say that Ross Perot and Jesse Ventura aberrations. I don't believe so, I think that the people are looking for more diversity in leadership styles. They are looking for something beyond the same old Democrats and Republicans fundamentally. I believe the people are simply looking for more choices more genuine leaders that aren't climbing the political ladder from one elected office to the next elected office on and on and on totaling many times 30 35 Forty years of getting elected it is in this environment that Ross Perot got one out of every five votes cast in the 1992 presidential election. It is in this environment that the state of Maine elected an independent Governor two years after Ross Perot did that and it was this environment that I was elected governor of, Minnesota in 1998. But without the party I couldn't have done it. There is no way I could have been successful without the support of the solid Third Party Movement. If it weren't for the dean Barclays the Phil madsen's the Diane Goldman's and the thousands of others and believe me. There are thousands of others in the early stages of the independence and the Reform Party Movement. We would not be here today talking about whether try partisan government is indeed working or not. And so is it working that is the question? Of course, it's working the signs are obvious and they go beyond the state of Minnesota the signs. First there are signs that in general more people than usual are very much interested in Minnesota Government people who haven't paid attention to government in the past. Now do pay attention to government and ladies and gentlemen, that is a good thing. It's good that more people are voting. That also is very good. As I said earlier Minnesota is not the only state with try partisan government main even before Minnesota has had an independent governor and I don't believe that it's just a coincidence you look at the two states, Minnesota and Main for a moment always number one and two and voter turnout. These are two very Progressive states with an independent nature. And again, as I said, they lead the nation. We were number one main was number two in the last election. It is in this kind of environment the try partisan government can and does work? I don't know about you. But since I became Governor, I haven't noticed that our state stature among other states has been reduced. Think back for a moment if you would. Can you think of the last time that a Minnesota governor was invited to spend a day with Harvard University economists and then speak at the Kennedy School of government? Can you think of the last time a Minnesota governor was asked to lecture at the Nixon Library? Georgetown University Princeton Johns Hopkins our own Carlton the Naval Academy as well as West Point. Can you think of the last time a Minnesota governor was invited to spend the night at the White House with the president that was not of his party? Can you think of the last time a Minnesota governor was asked to advise the president elect of another party on World Trade? Can you think of the last time a Minnesota governor was elected with 37% of the vote? But has had a job approval ratings const consistently in the 70% range is try partisan government working. Let me ask you to think about the executive branch of Minnesota's government since I was elected to office name the last governor of Minnesota who upon selecting his cabinet had his Democratic opponent say that this is one of if not the most talented cabinet in Minnesota History. If I recall correctly the legislature and specifically Senator Randy Kelly has been saying for years and years that we need to do something about the high cost of our prison system. This year one of those very talented cabinet members commissioner. Cheryl ramstad Voss is doing something about the high cost of prisons and has instituted a plan to lower the per diem cost in those Minnesota prisons. Is it working ask Randy Kelly and he'll tell you that when when it comes to prison management it is how about applying that talent to fiscal responsibility under the direction of Finance commissioner Pam Wheelock. We put together and the legislature passed a budget that is structurally balanced. That is our budgets. Do not commit the state of Minnesota do spending that cannot be supported for four years into the future. That's never been done before is it working? Ask the leading Bond houses in New York and they will tell you that it when it comes to fiscal management it is we are going to break ground for the first light rail system in Minnesota. In the last two years, we have reduced taxes in Minnesota by over 2 billion dollars in the last two years. We have Cent sales tax rebates back to the citizens that have amounted to almost two billion dollars in the last two years tourism in Minnesota has increased to the point where it is now a 10 billion dollar industry. Maybe some would say that the measure should be about ideas. Ideas, like a more accountable and efficient legislative process. Ideas, like long-term funding for a multi-modal transportation system ideas, like Cutting Edge tax reform that would adopt adapt our tax system to the new economy ideas, like reforming the way we pay teachers ideas like healthcare for all children. If ideas were the measure I would say it's working. How about the fact that the governor and this try partisan government and I'll repeat this how about the fact that the governor in this try partisan government hasn't had a fundraiser since been sworn into office. Not one. Would that be a measure of how it's working? How about the fact that we have had two very successful legislative sessions and no special sessions. There's no gridlock. There's no Panic. So why then are we asking the question? I think that we're asking the question because the people clearly want something different from what they are getting from the two-party system. They want more candidates to choose from they want more policy choices. They want citizens to serve as their elected officials not career politicians. I was elected governor because the people were looking for something more than the same old bipartisan fixes. The people are watching this experiment because they want an end to the short-term fixes of long-term problems. The people are filled with hope that this try partisan government can achieve solutions that don't rely on short-term fixes targeted towards favored constituencies of the party in power. The people sent us a message that bipartisanship that the bipartisan system isn't working. They said try it this way. We owe it to the people to make good on their challenge. I hope that when you have finished your discussion today that you will agree that while we surely can and will do better. Try partisan government is working. Thank you very (00:15:37) much. That was Independence Party Governor Jesse Ventura speaking yesterday at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey Institute policy Forum on try partisan government. Now after his remarks the governor answered some questions from the audience former, Minnesota Republican Congressman. Vin Weber. Ask the first question. (00:15:56) My question is this would you talk a little bit about your tax program Governor, which seems to be pretty interesting. I won't play I won't make it more specific than that, but it certainly is the biggest tax proposal tax reform proposal that I can remember and I just wonder if you could expand out a little bit and tell us about it to me. It's a proposal that really will reform taxes in Minnesota make them more Equitable and more fair and they're not isn't something we jumped into with both feet without spending a lot of time. My Revenue Commissioner Matt Smith is spent the last year and a half traveling the state of Minnesota talking to its citizens asking them their perceptions of how they're taxed and as they all Stand fully they know we're going to get taxed. We all know that you know, the old saying death and taxes and you don't even Escape it at death anymore. Right Tim. I don't think so. You know, they haven't changed it yet. I don't know if they have but it was a case where we went out and discussed with citizens. Will what do you feel what is fair and taxing and it came back overwhelmingly that the income and property taxes were considered the most unfair I should say. Yeah the income and property taxes were considered the most unfair most minnesotans felt the sales tax was the most fair tax out there. I for one am in agreement with that. I'm an agreement with the national sales tax. I think we should abolish the income tax. But of course that has to start at the federal government first that movement has to happen there, but I would love to see the income tax abolished completely. I'm a believer that our forefathers and our country are turning over in their graves today realizing that the government gets your money before you. That when you go to work your money's deducted from you by the government before you even get it. We're a sales tax. That doesn't happen. You get your money you decide what you'll be taxed upon by what you purchase. So it gives you much more control over what you're taxed upon and the people in Minnesota seemed to feel the sales tax was the most Equitable and Fair Way of Taxation. So upon learning that we started looking. Okay, how can we make some shifts here? And again in vain? We also looked at the fact the property tax system when this system was designed initially. It was supposed to be a local tax. It was supposed property taxes were supposed to be attacks solely for local government and the local area that they served well, then all of a sudden we've got education lumped into the property tax system. We got the property tax system supporting far more than what it was originally designed to be and that's a local tax. Now you'll hear a lot of controversy over. Taking over the full K through 12 by the state taking over full payment by the state of Minnesota ladies and gentlemen were already doing it. What we're proposing is simply ending the shell game. What you've got right now is the state paying 70 percent to begin with right now, but the other 30 we mandate we tell the locals what they have to do with it. Well by us, assuming the full K through 12 responsibility, what that's going to do is just going to take it off how many people here understand your property taxes when you get them. I mean how many people honestly considered and take a look at it? Well, either they're lying or they're real bright because I can't if you're like me you look to that final little spot bout in the far right corner, which tells you how much you're getting nicked for. Right that's you know, and the rest of it in there. You got this you got that you got two equations multipliers this that whatever you know, you you either working it and understand it. But if you're an average citizen, you don't well what this is going to do is going to it's going to bring accountability accountability both at the state level as well as the local level because if the state assumes the full K through 12 and we shift it like I want to to the sales tax to be paying for education in Minnesota. What that's going to do is when you get your property tax statement, then you will not see one penny of money there to education unless your locals did it. That's called accountability if there's education payments or School payments on your local property taxes, if what I'm proposing goes through then you will know that was done by your local school administrators your local school boards did that that's accountability. It's being accountable then you can hold your local school boards accountable because you know the state of Minnesota has fully paid for the per pupil funding. And it's not a takeover where the state's going to now start mandating more and more and take over local school decisions. No, it's the opposite. And what were also doing is you know, you hear the cry local government local government while we're going to give it to him. We're going to give the locals the opportunity to be accountable and make those decisions at the local level that answered fairly well and then of course cutting the income tax is pretty simple that's called cutting the income tax. We have you know, we have a we're being far overtaxed. We've had three consecutive rebates. I want the rebate to stay in there just in case we do take in more than we've budgeted for naturally, but the fact is we're projected to bring in far too much money than it's taking government to operate with and so I think again, I'm a Believer and sales taxes. So I'm going to look any chance I can get at cutting cutting the income tax and finally, I'll finish with this Vin. I believe it was in the early 90s the sales tax was at 6 and 6 percent and we had a deficit and they added a half a cent which was called temporary while I'm out to make a temporary. I'm out to make it what it was initially designed to be that extra half-cent it was there when we had a deficit we now have a surplus let's remove that half cent and get it back to 6 where it was before and then I'll finish off with let's see what else? Oh then on expanding the sales tax. I think I should go into that for a moment because that of course is everyone shocked everyone's you know, how can we expand the sales tax? It's called being fair people. It's called a fair and Equitable tax to everyone. Why is it that the guy that cuts your lawn gets taxed but a landscaper doesn't If they're called the landscape, or they don't get taxed if they if he mowed your lawn you get taxed if he's Lawn Service you get taxed my point being is this and let's shift it back for a moment the sales tax when it was put into effect. Oh by the way dornfeld nice to see you. I'm glad your newspapers going to make money off me now with your cartoon. Maybe you'll write an editorial dealing with that. You know, if your newspaper exploiting me to gain money with the cartoon interesting. You'll have your time it's my time. Anyway, we're looking at a fairness issue here in the 1960s when the sales tax was put into effect. We were a society of 60% Goods 40% services that today is flip-flopped. We are now roughly 60% Services 40% goods and we also face what is going to be the biggest challenge Across the Nation and that is what do we do with internet sales? That was the number one Topic at this last past year's National Governors Association conference was internet. How do we tax? It should we tax it? No one wants to tax use of the internet, but certainly we must understand that when sales takes place on the internet. The ultimate loser is Main Street. Main Street USA because when you have people purchasing over the Internet, that means they may not be going down to their local store and making the purchase their and subsequently the locals lose that money from the sales tax the state of Tennessee is done a preliminary study. This was last year and they found out that internet sales was already costing them roughly a hundred and forty million a year right now of lost Revenue to that state through sales tax because the internet is not so what we're looking at is broadening the base lowering lowering the sales tax getting rid of that half a point but broadening its base to make it more fair and more Equitable to all to be paying it on an equal basis. My name is Susan Barton governor with regard to a multi-party system. I've read many articles which indicate that in a democracy that has a parliamentary form of government. It's much easier to have You can have that be successful and certainly if we look around the world. That's the case. Can you comment upon the limitations with our form of democracy and your thoughts about that concerning further development of multi-party systems the United States? I don't think there's really a lot of limitations. I'm just a great believer that there's more than black and white there's more than yes, and no in life. There's people like me that can stand up here and tell you I'm fiscally conservative, but I'm socially liberal. Well, how do you fit in these two parties if you're fiscally conservative and socially liberal the Democrats are Liberal Liberal. The Republicans are conservative conservative. What if you're one of each well, then you can't fit into them and I believe most Americans sit. Like I do generally slightly fiscally conservative on the conservative side and I'm liberal on the social issue side. These two parties are very restrictive when it comes to that and so you look to to something for yourself. I'm a third party person. I'll go back and tell you why because the two parties went against me when I ran for mayor Brooklyn Park, it was a nonpartisan election. I was taking on a 20 or 25 year incumbent and the two major parties cosine their leadership co-signed letters to all the citizens of Brooklyn Park stating they were Dropping party differences in support of the 20-year incumbent and how important this election was and they told they also said that I was the most dangerous man in the city. And I couldn't figure that one out because all I did was send my kids to public school up there and pay taxes. I haven't figured out what the danger was yet of who I was well, then when I won the election 65 percent to 35 percent, then the two parties came courting me and they wanted independently independently for me to join them. Well, what did I learn from that I learned very quickly that The end justifies the means they don't care what you stand for as long as you can win and I learned that they have no credibility because why did they want the most dangerous man in the city now after they had chastised me prior to the election and then after I won now, they embraced me and wanted me to join their two parties while I was fortunate there were these little signs out there around my neighborhood that had the name Berkeley on it Berkeley for u.s. Senator Congress. I don't remember Dean which one it was at the time. And I started looking into this independence party. I thought who are these people and as I looked into the independence party, I found that this was a party I could relate too much more. This was a party that allowed me to be who I was and they didn't make me shape who I was to fit their parameters. They allowed me to stay who I was and still be part of their parameters without a whole lot of changing from me. In fact without any changing for me. It didn't require me to change it all to fit in to the independence party. And so that's where it all came from. I just believe we need more than two choices. I believe that you know, it's interesting and I've said it many times Abraham Lincoln when he ran for president was the member of a third party at the time. He was a member of the Republican party, which at that time was the new party on the Block. Imagine where we'd be today had not Abraham Lincoln won that election that that third party person hadn't One I see nothing wrong with three choices or for that matter maybe for of major party status because we all can't fit in to those narrow parameters that I see the Republicans and Democrats have out there today of Liberal Liberal conservative conservative. If you flop back and forth on the to you know, maybe some people are fiscally liberal and socially conservative. I haven't thought of that one either but there's your fourth party that you could look at (00:29:16) Michael and rake st. Paul as you know, it's a lot of work to break out of the current system and build a third party. I gather that the green party is also trying to do that and has had some conversations with you about maybe working together. Do you have any plans for liaison with them or any other major threads in the Third Party (00:29:37) Movement? We naturally have talked because that's the problem. The third party movements face is that they're so splintered that you have literally maybe a dozen. Third parties the Libertarians the green party the independence party and you know, there's more and more and more and I just looked at the possibility of look if we align ourselves together if we can agree on some major Central issues that we can all say we sit down and agree upon like one of the great ones for third party politics is campaign Finance reform. I don't think you'll find any third parties out there that aren't in agreement that we've got to do something about how we pay for these elections rather than the current way we're doing it. And so what we looked at was we met with some with the green party leaders to see what we had in common. We certainly want to talk with them about the things that we have in common and we certainly are not We're not opposed to looking at uniting on a lot of fronts if we have that common belief and we ideologically we can can say we agree with each other. But certainly there are also other major differences between the independence party and the green party (00:30:51) question right here. Rick rock with the I'm with the Humphrey Institute with vin and Tim my question is I work as an engineer for Seagate technology in Edina. So I my interests are much more technical as far as the economic opportunities as we move forward and given your unprecedented popularity both in the international scene as well as domestically is their way of somehow leveraging that popularity economically to draw companies here in Minnesota and also getting into those not negotiations, but (00:31:23) in that discussion to prevent (00:31:24) companies through economic incentives to make them stay or to perform that make them but (00:31:29) incentivize them to stay well, I think they're I think one of the first place you start is taxes I think that that's one of the major obstacles we have right now and keeping businesses here or bringing businesses in yours. We are we are very highly taxed here. But then on the flip side, we have to remember something to we seem to be giving a fairly good deal for our taxing for four years in a row. We've been named the best state in the United States of America by an independent study. So it's obvious. We're doing something right even though we're very highly taxed. I think again it's a case of of in Thai see I think if you the best thing we have though to bring businesses here and keep them here are our people our Workforce because we have a Workforce of people in this state people that know how to work people that take pride in how to work and people that aren't afraid to work. I think that's our biggest and that's the message. I have to carry out there. We have to be viable economically so they can make it here and then we'll let our people do the Our Workforce is the best that there is I and my belief in the United States of (00:32:38) America. The context really question was like the issues in the Iron Range and trying to help out the various companies obviously in the iron ore (00:32:46) I got to go on Leno again. Yeah, you know or whatever you can do. I mean that you have a (00:32:52) personal asset that that's literally unprecedented and I don't think that's that's definitely a card you have that most wouldn't have so why couldn't you bring other Japanese or other foreign investors in Minnesota that you probably are doing but perhaps in a more public way in a much more (00:33:07) proactive way not (00:33:08) locate honeywell's out of this out of the town now. Well, what can we do to bring them back but getting involved early in that negotiation stage? (00:33:15) Let me just say on honey. Well, I don't think anybody knew that was coming. You know, I don't think the mayor of Minneapolis had any idea it was right in her town. I don't think any of us knew and you know, and there are going to be negotiations and rest assured that Honeywell decision didn't even happen. When I was governor did that those talks had to happen long before I got here when things like that go on. And again, that's the private sector they're going to make decisions you can make and sure we'd like to influence them. Sure. We'd like them not we'd love to have Honeywell not to made the choice to leave but that's part of capitalism. (00:33:53) And and so I think (00:33:54) that and as far as me I'm open to all negotiations. Anyone that wants to talk to me any business. I've met with Business Leaders. I've met with the Japanese. I forget his name. Now who's got the big company down in Winnebago that's thinking of expanding to Iowa and I told him humph are much better would be a decision to expand here in Minnesota than Iowa after all Iowans do nothing. But come up here. Anyway got in there. We have time for and often we go. Mayor, unless you're going Bullhead fishing. (00:34:22) Hi. My name is Ben MOA. And I'm from Patrick Henry High School. And I'm a huge pro wrestling fan at a I was I was wondering how do you feel about being a former pro wrestler? You think it's affected you in a more negative or positive positive way in the media as well as among the Common People. (00:34:40) Well amongst the media probably- what was interesting during the election if you remember back my opponents were always said mayor of st. Paul attorney general and instead of the media giving me my do I was a former mayor? This is politics. Why wasn't I listed as mayor Jesse Ventura, but it was always former pro wrestler Jesse Ventura, they all forget that very conveniently because it doesn't sell as well. Always remember the media is out to make money. That's their main purpose. He has a youngster I want to teach you that so you grow up you understand that completely. Ali that they're in the business of making money the same as every other business is in the business of making money. And so I think that as a whole though, it helped me it helped me tremendously number one it gave me name recognition. Number two, it gave me the ability to appear on camera and to be able to perform in front of a camera number three, it gave me the ability to talk on microphones and ad-lib, you know, most people don't realize that when I when I did wrestling all the interviews were completely ad-lib there was no rehearsal to it or nothing they'd say, okay. You got Hulk Hogan three minutes Denver go. So it's all ad-lib. Well that makes you think on your feet and makes you very bright because if you don't draw people you don't get paid like the more people you draw the more money you make so there's a direct correlation there isn't there to being successful. And so I think it helped me tremendously that way. And and then I supposed made me a bit of a novelty to but to me it should have no bearing on what I did in governing because I believe very strongly and to you young people our country was formed on to be a citizen government and that citizen government doesn't mean every elected official should be a lawyer or every elected official should be a professional this or that a citizen government means plumbers wrestlers firemen policemen. Whatever your trade was that's what the knowledge you bring forward a factory worker whatever it might be that's what to me is citizen government is all about people from all walks of life that bring what those walks of life have taught them to go in and make common-sense decisions on what their government should be. So it should have no bearing what I did before or how I earned a living before. Or I did this job that I do now (00:37:18) Governor Jesse Ventura speaking yesterday at the University of Minnesota. Humphrey institute's policy Forum on moving Minnesota. How is try partisan government working after the governor's comments The Forum continued with a series of panel discussions featuring lawmakers academics journalists and public policy leaders forums were moderated by Minnesota public radio's political editor Mike Mulcahy and political analyst Chris Gilbert who is the chair of the Gustavus Adolphus political science department first panel featured Republican House Majority Leader Tim pawlenty and dfl Senate Majority Leader Roger mole. Both leaders said Ventura his first two years in office have not resulted in significant reforms, but Mike asked Senator Mo if he agrees with the governor that three-party government is at least no worse than to party government. I've worked with a lot of Governors. And basically there are two things that that governors. ought to reflect on first of all your term in office you're basically a caretaker. If you're fortunate enough to be there for probably more than one term eight years or maybe more than that, then you can reflect and perhaps see changes that have occurred within that time frame that the time frame that you were a caretaker of the government. So that's one role. The other role is to reflect. About where it is you want the state to be in other words have have a vision and a Beyond Over the Horizon. and ask how do I structure public policy today that's going to position the state for some some demographic change or whatever the case may be so that we're position correctly off in the future long after I'm gone. Those are the two main things Governors have to be concerned about their caretaker role and what kind of a vision they have over the horizon. And I'm not sure which is the most important. They're both very very important and I've watched a lot of Governors over the years and some are good at one. Some are good at the other. but for a governor To think that you can measure that. In a two-year timeframe is extremely presumptuous and demonstrates a certain naiveness about public policy and how it plays out particularly in this state. Tim pawlenty how would you assess the first two years of the Ventura Administration from your perspective as a Republican and as member of the Minnesota house? Well, then I guess the fundamental question has been put before us is try partisan government in Minnesota working and I think before you can answer the question, you have to define the terms and have specifically the term working and I would concur with Senator Mo that if the standard is like the Hippocratic oath and practicing medicine first Do no harm the governor has done no measurable harm, but the larger question is are there missed opportunities. Is there a certainly a caretaker role that's expected of all governors and to do no harm but beyond that in terms of vision casting for the future of the state in terms of using the power of a bully pulpit, which every Governor has in this Governor has the turbocharged model of not only a governor, but an International Celebrity if he has a press conference often times, you can't even get in the room because of the nature and magnitude of the media if we have a press conference as a legislative caucus and we're lucky if the Dinkytown Gazette shows up. So there is a there is a big opportunity for a governor to use that bully pulpit in this case the turbocharged model to feature issues cast a vision and then the second phase of course is to to work the vision and actually get it implemented. I think it's potentially the tale of two Governors here and I would say as to the first two years of the Ventura Administration notwithstanding the rhetoric of the 1998 campaign about rocking the boat and reforming the system and great change. What we saw was kind of a status quo approach to state government what I'd call a modest adjustments status quo plus or minus inflation and we might beginning to see now a new chapter in this governorship. And that is perhaps a better understanding or at least a level of comfort of the position and the responsibilities and like it or not agree with it or not the big plan and the pronouncements around it is an attempt by this Governor to cast a vision. To bring focus on issues and to articulate great change and so is it working? It depends on your perspective? I think try partisan government is almost a guaranteed formula for continued incremental ISM. And if you believe democracy is a delicate balance and inner incremental ISM and most circumstances is the order of the day. It probably is working relatively. Well, if you are a person who has great and big and Grand and bold hopes and visions and you want Quantum change and you want bold change try partisan government I think is not going to deliver for you. It is a Formula that is inherently designed for incremental ISM notwithstanding the grand rhetoric perhaps a slightly different version of our lead question is is how has try partisan government been different from what we might have seen you've all mentioned of course that the state is in very good Economic Times if we're not Farmers, I think we would we would all generally agree with that would we not have seen or We have seen increases to K to 12 education changes incremental though. They may be at the moment to the income tax system will be not have seen sales tax rebates had skip Humphrey been elected. Governor had Norm Coleman been elected governor that is in what way is Ventura different than those people in setting up a situation working with the House and Senate to resolve these things as the sessions came to a close direct that to anyone who wants to answer. Tim pawlenty you went would you have been able to come together? Would you have been able to make these things happen or to get part of what you wanted? I think if you look at the first biennium of this governorship on the tax and spending issues there wasn't a great deal of attention paid to structural reform. It was mostly levels of funding levels of increases or decreases. And so I don't think there was a big broad vision for reform the dynamic in our view that try partisan government creates from a legislative. Negotiating standpoint is a high premium on two-on-one and I am a old hockey player. I still try to play a little hockey and Old-Timers League when you're defending against a two-on-one as a defense person. The coaches will tell you you have to play the puck because it shifts back and forth and you never know from which person or player the puck is going to come from whereas if you're defending against a one-on-one you just go out the body. Just go straight on take them head-on and I analogize that to the situation that we have at the legislature in the old days. They're not that old I guess but indifference to Roger in the old days. You had you know more or less a one-on-one situation you had the governor as a variable but the governor was more or less aligned with one party or the other and it was kind of a head-on situation, you know, you're gearing towards a head-on collision or a head-on resolution of the disputes here. You have the shifting game of two-on-one and you never know depending on the issue or the cluster or the with the governor had for breakfast who's going to be on your side on a particular issue. So it's a more complicated set of negotiations than a two on one on one and I don't think it's fundamentally different at least as manifested by the Ventura agenda in the first two years. It may be now because of the big plan that he's bringing something unique or a value-added proposition to the table. But at least in the last two years, he was simply kind of generally in the mix on the same issues. That would have been there anyhow, and it just is slightly more complicated Senator. What do you think? How would it have been different? under a traditional democrat or republican governor I think Jim's right. It's it's a matter of degrees. You know would there have been tax reductions again? I mean you can't with the economic condition of the state. I don't think it would have made any difference all Democrats. All Republicans all whatever there would have been a combination of tax reductions in recognizing certain Investments that have to have that that should have been made so I don't think that's the case and Tim is right in terms of the the rather strategic way the administration plays off the the house caucus the house leadership and the Senate leadership and that's all well and good. I think probably As I reflect on it though had there not been the the two-on-one had it been maybe all one way or the other some things might not have happened. I think it's I think I'm fairly clear in saying this that had the Republicans had the governor's office and the house and the Senate there would not be the tobacco endowments. I don't think they would have been moving forward on LRT. I think that's fairly clear that they've been very clear about that. And they probably would have got the income taxes a lot more than what ended up being cut. So I think that would have been the case. If in fact the Republicans had controlled all three in that at least the first cycle of the budget go-arounds. I think the administration did play it smart in the its first two years in being Limited in its agenda and focusing on just a handful of things. I think that was a smart strategy a good strategy and I think it helped it helped bring about a fairly reason balanced package. So as Tim said the governor's very good at kind of picking as he goes down the line and kind of picking off of both menus, which is not a bad strategy on his part, but I I must be I'm a little hard pressed to see where there's a lot new. I mean even listening to the governor today if you reflect on it, I mean, I'm trying to trying to figure out what is new. What's kind of the kind of new public policy kind of bold different kinds of public policy. I don't it's modifications of some of the things we've seen for some time now, maybe that's a reflection of reality. I don't know but I'm not sure if if if it's all reform, you know that if the reform agenda or whatever party it is now it comes with bold new ideas. I'm not sure if I see that in some of the the policies that the that the administration is advancing what difference would it make from the perspective of the governor and his administration if there was more than one legislative a lie within the house or senate for Tim and for Roger what difference does it make if the if the independence party becomes a more significant presence. I have a sense my own premise would be the neither the Republican or the dfl party of Minnesota really think the independence party is going to be around very long or is ever going to be a significant factor in Minnesota politics just briefly in the Senate it with Senator Lessard making the switch I Roger can address that my hunch is given the margin and the unique circumstances of that switch. It's not going to lead to Great change in the Dynamics in the senate or the relationship with the governor in the house. However, given the makeup of the house currently 69 Republicans 65 Democrats and it takes 68 votes to pass a bill if there were hypothetically 345 independence party members who could be the swing. Arjun for a bill to pass or not. Obviously, they wouldn't be in the majority but they would have enormous leverage in how the final Bill gets shaped and the kind of marginal more than marginal aspects of the bill. So I would say if the independence party could elect even a modest number of Representative the Minnesota house in the makeup stayed about the same. He would have a very substantial impact on the proceedings of the house. All that being said there is scant little empirical evidence that the independence party can get anybody elected other than Jesse Ventura at the moment. I don't say that's going to be the case forever because I do think many of the symptoms and concerns that the governor Flags regarding popular sentiment are true and at some level that message could resonate. One vote in the Senate is really not. I don't think it's going to be a factor Tim is right, if you know if the margins were closed and you could broker the differences, of course, but that's not the case. All I know is kind of on a personal experience has what it takes to keep one's political party organized and run campaigns and try to keep your political party and pick up seats and all I know is how hard a work that is that it takes a lot of time and a lot of energy and a lot of effort unless somebody does that or or a number of people do that? I don't think you're going to see the kinds of I just don't see it taking root. So again time will time will be the best judge on all of that, but I don't see it in the short-run Senate dfl Majority Leader Roger mole. He participated in yesterday's panel discussion on the on try partisan government in Minnesota, whether it's working or not also on that panel. You heard the Republican House Majority Leader. Tim pawlenty panel was part of the University of His Humphrey Institute policy Forum titled moving Minnesota. How is try? Partisan government, working moderators were Minnesota public radio's political editor Mike Mulcahy and Minnesota public clear a public radio political analyst Chris Gilbert who is the chair of the political science department at Gustavus Adolphus College in st. Peter? Well that does it for our midday program today Gary eichten here. Thanks so much for joining us. By the way. We will be re broadcasting this forum discussion at nine o'clock tonight. So second chance to hear from the governor and Senator Mo and represented plenty nine o'clock tonight A rebroadcast tomorrow. We sure hope you'll join us should be a excellent program probably heard that senator. Paul wellstone has made it official. He is going to seek re-election despite promises that he made that he would only run for two terms while he's going to seek a third term and he'll be joining us tomorrow at 11:00 o'clock to talk about his decision and talk about some of the big issues on Washington. Here to take your questions 11 o'clock tomorrow. Senator Paul wellstone over the noon hour. It's off to the National Press Club to hear from the head of Eli Lilly on prescription drugs. Today's programming is made possible in part by The Advocates of Minnesota Public Radio contributors include Cargill Incorporated supporting Minnesota's tradition of community service and Wells Fargo Foundation, Minnesota on behalf of Wells Fargo brokerage Services programming support is also provided by the new and renewing members of Minnesota Public Radio.