(00:00:10) Good morning, and welcome to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us over the weekend. My recalled her own was shot and killed and st. Paul's East Side the 26th. Minnesota woman killed this year by her husband or boyfriend that is a record number of domestic abuse fatalities in Minnesota a statistic that may have passed largely unnoticed except for a series of Articles appearing this week in the st. Paul Pioneer Press. The series has recounted the personal stories of several victims of domestic abuse and it's tracked the legal systems response or lack of response to domestic abuse cases today on midday were going to try to find out more about this problem domestic abuse and what is being done about it. We've been joined today by Ramsey County attorney Susan Gartner and also with us is Alan age. He's an advocate with the Saint Paul intervention project nonprofit organizations set up to help the victims of domestic abuse and work with a larger community. Try to reduce the incidence of such violence as always we invite you to join our conversation as well. If you have a question or comment about domestic violence and what might be done about it. Give us a call here. Our Twin City area number is 6512276 thousand 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll-free. That number is 1-800-218-4243 or 1-800 to for to to 828. Thanks for coming in today. Appreciate it. Well, thanks for Karen to talk about this issue Gary Susan character. Let me start with you the record number of fatalities. Does that also mean there has been a record number of domestic abuse cases this year. Well, it would seem that's the case in st. Paul the police have already handled nearly a thousand more domestic abuse related police calls than they did in the previous year in the previous. They handle the lat. So it seems to be at a rise or at least the reporting of it is you mentioned that this is a record year for domestic us fatalities. It may be a record year but not by that much one thing. I don't think people realize is just how many of the homicides that go on in our community and in communities across Minnesota are domestic related the gang shootings the convenience store robberies those tend to get the headlines. But in fact year after year many many deaths result from domestic homicides, I'll give you just one example in 1998 58% of the homicides in st. Paul were domestic-related. Is there any apparent reason for this is there is a has been an increase I'd but as you know it I mean it's it's not that much higher than it normally. Is but the trend seems to be up any any identifiable reason. Well, I think the reasons are many and they're very chronic in our society. And I think that Ellen Works quite closely with victims of domestic assault and can probably speak to that a little more intimately but we have a very violent Society we have and I will say men obviously women are can be abusive do act out abusively. But the fact is at least 90% of our cases involve men abusing or killing women and the fact is that our society. I don't think really takes domestic violence seriously enough and that's why I continues. Well Ellen Aid. Have you been able to identify any One reason or a couple of reasons why this is happening why it's increasing there are many reasons. I believe that many of the women who have been killed. I had actually left their relationships. I think that as more resources become available and women are speaking up and are leaving they put themselves at greater risk not to say that they shouldn't leave they certainly should but generally victims are at a 75 percent greater risk of being killed after they have left or when they are in the process of leaving a relationship. Hmm. But clearly they should they should get out of it definitely and sick the resources that are out there use the criminal justice system use local advocacy programs and certainly shelters when that's necessary. Are there any statistics that would tell us? How many women in the state of Minnesota are victims of domestic abuse every year do we have any any guess on that? Well, I'm looking over to Ellen wondering if she has some the because that's a common question really how deep how widespread is the problem and I don't think there's any way to quantify the cases we don't hear about what I do know is that last year in st. Paul alone? There were almost 19,000 calls for domestic violence in one city in Minnesota. I can't even imagine Statewide what the what the numbers would be and that's just the women the people that call. Hmm. Is there any profile of the abusers? I mean, is there any any things that that the men who are abusing these women who they share any common characteristics of users come from all different backgrounds? (00:05:48) Once (00:05:48) they can be professional people. I think that that often times the person is controlling. This is about power and control it's about doing anything that's necessary to control the victim whether it's using emotional abuse economic abuse any number of other forms to control and to coerce the victim, but that's it because there's no other there's no nothing else that they share they haven't come if we could predict this we could probably stop it. I mean, I don't have a crystal ball it is it is very difficult to predict who will be abusive and certainly if the first time we went out with someone they hold off and hit you you probably wouldn't continue to go out with them. You wouldn't fall in love with them Gary. One thing that I think is a fairly good predictor not complete not in every case, but certainly men who grow up in abusive households are at a much much higher risk of becoming a There's themselves. There's no question. But that violence is a learned behavior and obviously much learning goes on in the home and when a boy or a girl for that matter grow up in a violent home, they tend to act that out themselves and become abusers themselves. If a child is if you look at the numbers of prisoners in our Criminal Justice System who grew up in violent homes, it's staggering. And so as I say, I would say that's a fairly common denominator. Do we have any idea why it is though that so many kids who grow up in those homes. Don't grow up to be abusers. Well the ones that don't grow up to be abusers and I would say those are in the minority, but the ones who do obviously have had some help and that's one thing that were very concerned about in the criminal justice system is getting to those children who are growing up in violent homes and getting that kind of help getting them the resources that they need so they can learn how to deal with conflict. How to deal with stress how to deal with frustration and so that they don't take those stressors and become abusers themselves are most abusers repeat offenders. In other words. Do they just continue to do this or even after legal intervention? Generally? Yes, they move from one victim to the next the city of st. Paul notifies us whenever they make an arrest in domestic violence cases, and we generally keep a file on abusers and we will notice that they will just move from one victim to the next it's not about the victims Behavior. It's about the suspects behavior and do protection orders actually provide much protection for women. I think they're a very very good tool. I think that to have an order allows the police to respond if there is someone who is threatening me and they are on my doorstep and I don't have an order for protection. There isn't very much that the police can do other than ask this person to leave on the other hand if I I (00:08:47) have (00:08:48) an order for protection and I called the police they will arrest them on the spot. And I think that we can count the number of women who have been killed. It's very difficult to count the number who have been saved when the police have actually responded and been able to diffuse the situation and take that person out and put them in jail for the night. Mmm. Now one of the troubling aspects I guess it would be the way to put it of the st. Paul Pioneer Press series was the was the study of what happens to people who actually are picked up by the police. I think I think the statistic was that only about a fifth of them end up in jail at all is the system Tough Enough on these people. Well as County attorney it certainly is one of my goals to make the system even tougher. The the study was a valuable one. It ranged across a number of jurisdictions in the metropolitan area. And I think what it pointed up more than anything was the fact that as a society. We don't put enough resources into protecting women and children all people from violence in the home. When you look at the caseloads that the Saint Paul City attorney the Minneapolis City attorney the Bloomington City attorney have it is impossible to handle each case and go to the mat and really give it your all you just simply can't nobody could Superwoman Superman could not get the ideal results in all those cases with that kind of volume. And the fact is that it takes it's going to take a stronger commitment from us as a society to take domestic violence. Seriously elenee Dao. Interested as you track a abusers the ones who do end up in jail. Are they let them less likely to abuse in the future or does that mean does it have any kind of deterrent effect? I think that arrest in and of itself can be a deterrent effect. There was a study done in Minneapolis and in 1984, which was a national study that said that it is a deterrent to arrest someone and take them out of the home. It certainly sends a strong message to the children who are the future abusers that this is not okay that it's against the law and that there are consequences. We're talking this our about the issue of domestic abuse and joining us here in the studio Ellen aide who is with St. Paul intervention project and Ramsey County attorney Susan Gartner, and if you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call our Twin City area number six five one two, two seven six thousand 6512276 thousand if you're calling from outside the Twin Cities, you can reach us toll-free. That number is Jared 24228286512276 thousand 1-800 to for 22828 first callers on the line Jacqueline Hauser who's with the Hennepin County fatality review project. Good morning. (00:11:48) Good morning, Gary your comment. Well, I was just calling because I thought you might be interested in knowing about a very new project in Hennepin County. It is called a domestic and Hennepin County Domestic fatality review project. And the purpose is to look back at domestic homicides to find out what if anything could have been done differently to prevent the homicide. Have you (00:12:15) found anything? (00:12:17) Well, we have just started meeting. We have a multi disciplinary Committee of 23 members. This project was established by the state legislature, and we've just started meeting in September of this year. And so it's a little It too early to tell but we know from talking with jurisdictions that are doing this around the country that this can be a very important way to find out how the system can respond better to domestic violence. (00:12:46) Well, good luck with your (00:12:47) project. Thank you. Appreciate your (00:12:48) call. Right? It does seem especially I would say in the last 15-20 years that the issue of domestic abuse has gotten a fair amount of attention has there been any progress made in terms of dealing with this issue? There's been a lot of progress. I mean I have I've been working this movement for a number of years and I have certainly seen changes Minnesota has some of the best laws in this country. They're in Hanceville. So the first time someone commits an act of domestic abuse it can be a misdemeanor the second time it can be a gross misdemeanor and the third time it can be a felony. I'm I see huge improvement over the last 20 years and I see an improvement as well. I 20 years ago worked in a battered women's shelter in Duluth as a volunteer. Here before I practice law and Duluth at that time was really a national Trend Setter. And so I've watched this issue myself for quite a while. I agree with Alan that improvements have been made and one thing that I think has happened much more recently that I think is very important and that is paying attention to the effect that violence in the home has on the children are first I think line of attack if you will on this issue was protecting the adult victim providing services and making sure that the batter ER suffered consequences and there have been as Ellen said dramatic improvements on that what I see as the next mission of the criminal justice system is to do some do more for what we call the invisible victims the kids that are growing up in those violent homes learning violence as a way of life and certainly they don't all as you said become abusers themselves, but even if they don't become abusers they tend to You have serious issues depression perhaps acting out in ways short of violence. It is a huge problem and we get estimate that at least 70% of the cases in st. Paul where domestic violence occurs. There are children often young children. They're observing suffering and we need to do more for them. The chief legal officer of central Ogawa. Jorge is on the line. Good morning. (00:15:03) Good morning, Gary. Good morning, Miss Gartner Miss Aid. Thank you for taking my call. You been as you indicated. I'm the chief legal officer of central. They got were a nonprofit Community Law Office and we had a we've had a domestic abuse project in our office for 14 years. You started out the program by indicating that a Latina woman was the latest victim of a murder related to domestic violence. I think it might also be useful to point out that the first victim this year on January 2nd. Thousand was also a Latino woman what this points out is that this is a matter of grave concern to the Latino community and certainly to The Advocates and attorneys in our office this past year. We represented and provided legal advice to over 800 women who are victims of domestic violence. This is a serious problem in the Latino community and there's a one comment. I had sort of a couple of comments. I'd like to add one of them is that one of the concerns that we have is that in the enforcement side of the house of the Criminal Justice System all too often police officers are asking immigration questions at the time that they're responding to a call for domestic violence and the result of this. Is that a lot of women. I think it's having a chilling effect on women calling the police in domestic violence situations because they recognize that Or maybe immigration consequences either for themselves or for their abuser while that may seem like a benefit very often the Dynamics of domestic violence play themselves out in such a way that the woman is, you know, in many cases trying to protect the abuser, right and this is a real concern. The second thing that I would like to mention is that the cultural dynamics that play into domestic violence in different immigrant communities in particular are extremely important in the way that enforcement takes place around domestic violence and and I don't mean to suggest that the cultural dimensions are not being taken into consideration, but simply that this is a matter that's ongoing and should remain a top priority for both of the Criminal Justice System the judicial system as well as law enforcement around domestic violence. Okay? Well, thanks for your comments. Thank you that raises the (00:17:31) issue. Jorge of course talking about the situation and Latino Community the Hmong Community as understand about a quarter of the deaths of the fatality so far occurred in the Hmong Community relatively small group of people in Minnesota. Do we have an idea of why there have been so many fatalities in that among those people? Well, I don't think there is an easy answer to that. Certainly the Hmong Community has been hard hit by domestic violence as have all our communities. There is a lot of effort to provide culturally specific services for Hmong women in the st. Paul Ramsey County Community where the the bulk of the Hmong population is, but there are obviously deeply rooted cultural barriers for women in the Hmong Community to seek help and so that is a problem. It is something that we're working very hard at there are a lot more culturally specific resources available in the Hmong Community, but it may be something that among woman doesn't want to Avail herself of they are very closed communities. There is a sense that if you go to a culturally specific agency, you'll have less privacy. They'll be more recrimination in the community. So it is a Very difficult issue for us in the criminal justice system Eleanor. Go ahead Mike. I just wanted to add that. It's Saint Paul intervention. We have a Latino Family Violence program and a Southeast Asian battered women's program is Ellen. Let me ask you this is domestic violence generally seen as a as a crime the people look at it. That way used to be it seems like it was kind of an internal Family Matter you mean the general public? Yes. My hope is that people would look at this as a crime, but I don't necessarily think that they do I noticed a comment recently in the news paper by someone who said I didn't want to get involved in a domestic case. It was a family thing. And and so I think that I think the people still don't see it as a crime. I think that if they saw a stranger on the street assaulting someone they would not hesitate to call 9-1-1 and yet a crime happens next door, you hear someone screaming and you don't necessarily Russell you're coming. Russell yes, you're on the air. (00:20:03) I really have a two-part question one is taking off in the definition of domestic violence as more of a community problem and how it affects men as well as women and the second about how it can be responded to by our city Prosecutor's in this specific instance in my case is I and my four-year-old daughter were verbally abusing our home by a neighbor which was witnessed by someone else and the police took action. But the City attorney didn't until a second incident happened when it was witnessed by an officer of the Court. They wouldn't even do anything unless there was a witness for an officer of the court. So my question is how can you elaborate on domestic violence as being more of a community problem as well as abuse against men and children and how can we better respond in terms of are Prosecuting at the city level? (00:20:52) Susan Gartner the laws prohibiting domestic violence and really our whole criminal justice system is gender neutral there. It simply is a crime to commit domestic violence against a man as well as a woman and as a system, obviously we need to start at the top in terms of what gets the strongest response and I don't think we would want a system that didn't respond most vigorously to physical assaults assaults with weapons things of that nature. The other thing that I think is important when you're talking about domestic violence, you're talking about violence in the home against people who have every right to feel safe in their home have every right to feel safe from someone who supposedly loves them domestic violence simply is different than an assault on the street and assault from a stranger it A different Dynamic there's a different Power structure that affects it. There are economic considerations that effects it and I think we have to just as a society take take note of that that this is different. It is chronic It Is frequent and it is very dangerous Sally. You're come in please. (00:22:12) Well, I've worked in Social Services for many years and I guess this is a comment or two in directed to the nonprofit person. And I'm sorry, I can't remember your name, but I was a little concerned when you were describing the abuser and you know, you were it seemed like you were fairly vague. I mean controlling is it's been my experience that there's there's actually quite a few characteristics of abuses that a person could detect, you know at the dating stage and I've handed out literature from various domestic abuse projects to women that asked a number of questions. You know that specifically are geared to trying to ascertain those characteristics and I was wondering if you could speak to that because it seems to me that just saying that they're controlling isn't particularly helpful for people if they actually are or even observers if they're looking for characteristics of an abuser Sally before you go. Can you give us like (00:23:13) two of them that you've (00:23:14) identified? Well, I just just things like when I when I I just look at the questions that are asked of women that I have for resources that I've given and just things like, you know, does those your significant other not let you go out alone and things like that, you know just things that been in a healthy relationship those things wouldn't happen. Whereas if you're in a relationship that's headed towards abuse, you know, there are some signs that you can look for in people. All right Ellen. (00:23:51) Yes, I agree. And I realized that saying controlling was was somewhat Broad and certainly there are a number of things that we talked of as being emotional abuse when one partner ignores your feelings or makes fun of you put you down in front of other people even withholding affection. I can be a form of abuse constantly criticizing you telling you that nothing you do is ever very good that you're fat that you're ugly. No one ever would ever want you insulting you isolating you from friends and family controlling all of the money taking away the car keys. I mean there there are so many many things. Is that kind of what you were looking for the specific types of things she's gone, but I think that but isn't there a debt we need to break here for news, but isn't there a danger though? All those may be signs to lump all of that together kind of diminishes the actual physical threats that are posed to the women when they're battered in some cases killing. Well, I don't think that by being cognizant of some of the characteristics or behavior patterns of abusers so that make when you make choices about who to be with that's not a problem what's important to point out though is as a criminal justice system. We respond to acts of violence concrete acts of violence committed by either men or women that violate the law and so by talking about abuse in a big picture way that's helpful as a society and it's important to know that that what we focus on is a system is the is the criminal acts. I wanted to just add very quickly that that if we believe we can identify abusers and we may have a false sense of security that if this person doesn't do this and this and this and they will never abused me we're talking this our about domestic violence our guests Ellen aide who is an advocate with the Saint Paul intervention project nonprofit. Organization set up to help the victims of domestic abuse and work with the larger community on this issue and Ramsey County attorney Susan Gartner's with us as well. And we invite you to join our conversation. Give us a call here at 6512276 Thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight will get to more of your calls in just a couple of minutes programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by Breadsmith your neighborhood Baker of handmade Hearth baked Breads and muffins featuring their holiday Stalin in December. (00:26:24) I'm Juan Williams What If reporters always ask the questions on your mind, what if the media always listen to your ideas on NPR's Talk of the Nation we give you the chance to make sure that happens. We include your questions and comments as we discuss the issues of the day join us for the next Talk of the Nation from NPR news/talk (00:26:44) of the nation begins at 1 o'clock this afternoon here on Minnesota Public Radio. Thanks to all of you who made our recent membership drive a success your financial support provides the largest source of income for Minnesota Public Radio news headlines. Now, here's got a Cunningham Greta. Good morning. Gary President Clinton has welcomed President. Elect Bush to the White House a to are scheduled to talk for about 90 minutes Clinton told reporters while Bush will face economic challenges. He does not expect a recession in the near future Bush will meet with vice president. Al Gore later today. Bush's also conducting job interviews with prospective cabinet members in Washington Bridgestone. Firestone is set to release its report on it. Investigation of tires link to 148 traffic deaths sources say the company traces the problems to its Decatur Illinois plant. It says the Decatur plant uses a different process to mix Rubber and that has resulted in the tread peeling off the tire Middle East peace talks are resuming today in Washington Israeli and Palestinian representatives are due to meet separately with us mediators three-way talks are possible later. President Clinton has pledged to do everything he can to make sure the talks are productive the talks could offer the last opportunity for deal before the president's term ends January 20th snowfall in freezing temperatures have spread deep into the South keeping children home from school and icing up the morning commute snow has been falling along the Appalachians from Canada into Georgia schools were closed and parts of Alabama Georgia, the Carolinas and Tennessee in Regional news. The US attorney for Minnesota is resigning Todd Jones is stepping down after two and a half years on the job. He plans to return as a partner in his former Law Firm next month Jones resignation takes effect, January. 19th the day before President elect bush is sworn in US attorney's are appointed by the president and serve at the pleasure of the president and the Attorney General Jones was appointed by President Clinton in 1998 and was the first black us attorney for the Minnesota district. There is a winter storm watch in effect for Northwestern Minnesota tonight and tomorrow it'll be partly cloudy Statewide this afternoon with high temperatures from 0 to 10 above chicken current conditions around the region. Mostly Fair Skies reported in Rochester reports Fair Skies a temperature of zero, it's fair and st. Cloud and three below Duluth reports Fair skies and 0 and in the Twin Cities Fair Skies a temperature of three above Gary. That's a look at the latest news. Thanks Greta 25 minutes before noon. This is midday on Minnesota Public Radio this hour. We are talking about the issue of domestic violence this year a record number of women have been killed in domestic violence incidents and there's a interesting series that's been published. Week by the st. Paul Pioneer Press, which we thought deserve some follow-up and joining us here in the studio to provide their expertise Ramsey County attorney. Susan Gartner and Ellen aide who is an advocate with the Saint Paul intervention project again, we invite you to join our conversation. Let me give you the number but don't call right now because all our lines are busy and you'll just get frustrated 6512276 thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight give us a ring here in a couple of minutes when we get some of the lines cleared her. Beer comment, please. (00:29:52) Yes. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for airing this subject. It's I think we're just getting the tip of the iceberg here. I work at the Men's Center in Minneapolis. And we've established a program called men helping men with anger. And this is more in the prevention mode rather than in the protection mode as your guests were talking about. I agree. We don't put enough resources into into the protection area, but it Like we even put less into prevention preventing men from turning their anger into abuse and then turning the abuse and into violence. I've tried to raise funds for our nonprofit and it seems like there isn't very much interest in that aspect of treating this just as problem at all. (00:30:45) Do you think it's possible to prevent this (00:30:48) problem? Well, I hope we are doing our part at the Men's Center since 1997. We got a small Grant from Dayton Hudson and we started this program. It's a pure program is run by volunteers and we go through material from a professional David Decker who is a therapist and it's a support group and it's an educational group and we deal with small groups of men who have identified the anger as a problem in their life and may lead to problems, you know may lead to further abuse. Loose or were actually going through the court system and I think we've from the feedback we've gotten from the people in the class. I believe we we are helping many of the men that do show up. Thanks herb and good luck to you right? Thank you (00:31:38) Gary. I think herb raises a really really important point. And as I've said as County attorney my view is that we don't put enough resources into protection, but he's right we don't put enough resources into prevention either and one thing that the joint prosecution unit in st. Paul Ramsey County is about and and I've alluded to are concerned that the children growing up in these violent homes are not getting enough help and the point of the joint prosecution unit is to focus not only on the adult victim and the adult perpetrator but also the children so that we can prevent future criminal activity by those kids that may because they've grown up in an abusive home turn into abusers themselves another piece. Of this another point of the joint domestic abuse project is to provide harsher consequences for perpetrators, but one of those consequences that we hope to provide is to get them into more counseling into more treatment and the kinds of peer programs counseling programs anger management programs that heard describes their exactly what we like to see happen more of our goal ultimately with these children is to have them grow up in not abusive homes and ideally to maintain a relationship with the abuser if the abuser can change their behavior. The fact is a lot of times that's dad stepfather boyfriend of the mother or someone who is going to be a part of their lives and if we can have them turn their behavior around behave in a healthy manner it's better for the kids looking at this from the other perspective. Why not if somebody is beating up their wife or whatever throw them away put them onput lock them away for 10 15 years. Why not? Well, we might have a prison space problem Gary with that looking at the numbers were dealing with but the thing is we do think that providing consequences important the going to jail can have a wake up effect. But once you move beyond the jail time, you do need to deal with the issues that led to the abusive behavior in the first place and you're going to have a more long range effect. If you do both if you put the person in jail wake them up and then do something about whatever's causing them to be abusive. Chris is on the line from still (00:33:54) Watercress. Hi. I don't know if I'm on a time restraint or not. I know often you can be when you call in on these shows doesn't mean I'll Babble but I myself have I've been with the same girl for about three years now and in the beginning there was a domestic issue. I mean fairly young I'm 25, and we had a little bit too much to drink and it will off and hit her in the face or anything, but we did squirrel and I was taking the jail at night and I'd like to emphasize of course. We made it through that rough period we're still together and whatnot and you know since nothing like that has occurred but I like to emphasize what she's saying that jail can be a real eye-opener. I didn't grow up in an abusive household or with a neck rope and a very healthy strong Catholic up brought family and I guess that you know, I don't fall into that characteristic or trading it hasn't occurred since but I did have a question legal matter and then I'll take my you know, the response off the air I was so when I was taken to jail that night the and I just moved to Minnesota from the East Coast. So this did happen out of state but you know very well may be a policy here the officer said, you know, even though neither of you claim anything physical is going on here. Of course meaning by the time the officers came we did want the officers involved but it was too late at that point. He said even ever since the OJ matter I think is the analogy he gave me that when a domestic call comes in to the police. Someone has to go to jail more. So for the matter, I don't know if she knows anything about this more. So for the matter of you know, if the cops were to leave and then something did occurred somebody died or something then the police I guess could be liable for lawsuit. (00:35:42) Okay. Well, let's get to come in here. True, this is Susan guarantor. And there is no policy as you outlined certainly in any kind of arrest situation where it's a whether it's a domestic violence situation or not. The police officer needs to have probable cause that a crime has occurred. What I do think has happened in the last 10 20 years is a more proactive stance by the police in making those arrests and when there's a judgment call to be made I like to think that they're more likely to arrest than they would have been 10 20 years ago. But again, they have to believe a crime has occurred or no arrests can happen. Ellen is at you're experiencing the police used to be regularly criticized for rightly or wrongly for the charge was that they just simply ignored these these problems for the most part has police response of improved from your Vantage Point. I think it is certainly improved. I work with victims in the city of st. Paul so I can tell you about the st. Paul police. They are very proactive in interesting. We also do trainings routinely with the st. Paul police and have a good working relationship with them. And what I see is more times and not as Susan said if there is probable cause to believe that an assault happened they will in fact arrest hmm Robert your comment (00:37:19) for my kids, but I know that it's verbal abuse emotional abuse is very hard on the family years ago and When these influences would arise and there was alcohol related was just looked as though he's just venting and it still is I think now I was in an egg. I go to a classes and a few years ago. I asked for an anger management and out where I live. They didn't have anything they didn't they don't offer it and you have to be severely I guess abusive before you're able to to get into those eyes. That was the understanding that I got and so to me it seems that when the deputies are officers are called to a house and it's just like this other caller. It looked very harmless. I think it should be a mandatory that we have to go to an anger management class versus an A-Class. It's I have great friends that helped me to abstain from drinking. My wife knows that if I come home and I'm abusive. She's going to call 9-1-1 and but I work with myself just constantly on it. I've I guess I've been into counseling enough to know that I recognize when I'm when I'm building and so I have a built other outlets, but it's just it's in for those that are there just at the first incident should not be looked upon as just something like, oh, well, he had a bad day. Thanks Robert. Yep. Yep Ellen you've worked in (00:39:07) while you're working in the city. Now you've worked in Suburban areas who worked in rural areas are there. Is there anything close to enough services available to help people? I think that they're probably still 15 counties in Minnesota. They do not have programs for battered women. I think that here in the metro area at least as far as shelters go we turn away about 80% of the people seeking shelter because of lack of space. So no, I don't think there are enough program. What happens those women? Where do they go then when we work with those women we try to help them to get somewhere. If someone calls the shelters are full we can perhaps assist them in getting to Mankato or Rochester or some other area. That isn't always an alternative for every 100 we can occasionally put someone up for a night until shelter safe because becomes available. I think we look for Alternatives would in order for protection help if we can remove the other party from the house. Would that be helpful we help the victims to to look at their options. Leslie your comment, please. (00:40:12) Yes, I think it's significant that so far on the program. We haven't heard from a single victim of domestic violence and I was in a physically abusive marriage myself for three years and I understand that about one in three women will experience domestic violence in their life yet. I have never met a woman who has will admit that she's also been in a physically abusive marriage and I think it's or any kind of relationship. I think it's really important that women who've experienced break the silence and talk about it so that we can find support among ourselves and I wanted to find out from the experts on the show. Why do you think women don't talk about it very much and what we can all do to take the shame away from it and encourage women to talk about (00:40:53) it. Okay one in three women is abused physically assaulted. Yes, and I think that we're doing that today. I think that by talking about this by having it out in the open we are acknowledging that this is a community problem. This is not the victims fault and there is no shame. And I will tell you that I have been a victim of domestic violence. There are many of us say Paul intervention Provide support groups. I think it's very helpful to talk with other women who have experienced this to hear your Story coming out of someone else's mouth. I think that there are many programs that are now responding to to sort of take the shame off in to bring this out in the open. The medical community is a new one that is beginning to respond to domestic violence by routinely screening everyone that comes into the hospital for domestic abuse and letting people know this is a serious health issue. Hmm. I think it is fortunate that the caller did bring up this issue of Shame. It's difficult to talk about but it has the issue has an impact on the work of the prosecutors in our community. The fact is that a lot of those cases where the overwhelming majority of the cases where the perpetrator doesn't end up doing jail time or have significant consequences. It's because of a lack of victim cooperation. And anything we can do as a society to get at that basic issue of why don't victims want to cooperate. It's going to help the entire system. We've talked about the Hmong Community certainly that is a very strong issue in terms of domestic violence in the Hmong Community as a society. We certainly shame victims, but I think it's even a stronger element in some of our immigrant communities and is a barrier to successful prosecution help help me understand this now. I can understand I can see where if you're in love with somebody you don't want them going to jail and and you back off maybe you don't press charges and so on and so forth, but why would you be ashamed if somebody beat the hell out of you? Why would you be ashamed to tell somebody that isn't your fault? No, it isn't but many victims don't know that and there are still those old messages out there. You know, you made your bed. Now you have to lie in it. There are so many of those. Things that are there so ingrained in us that somehow you can control the other person. And also I wanted to mention that a lot of times when people call the police they don't necessarily want to have the person arrested. They just want the violence to stop. That's all they call the police because they're afraid Frank here come in, please. (00:43:29) All right. I just look at the article and in the Pioneer Press webpage, and I noticed that all the victims were women in my mail concern is the underlying sexism of this issue because I know men are victims of domestic violence a simple example is when you are out and you see a man slap a woman you're going to probably call 9-1-1, but if you see that same woman slap a man, she's you're going to say what did that man? Do to deserve it. You ask why people are afraid to report or shame to report incidents of violence on man could not possibly admit or lose a His self-esteem that a woman is abusing him there. It happens on both sides and along that issue. Is there a single shelter in Minnesota for victim male victims of domestic violence to go to the only safe place in that scenario is they put him in jail as you already heard the automatically you go to jail if there's any call by the police. (00:44:33) Well, actually that was corrected. But do we focus too much on women as victims here. Do we ignore the men who are victims of abuse as a prosecutor? I always make it very clear that I enforce the law regardless of the gender of the victim or the defendant or the perpetrator and the fact that the Pioneer Press article showed pictures, exclusively of women homicide victims reflects the facts that the overwhelming Percentage of victims of domestic violence are women and it you can't get away from that. That's just what the numbers are. I've been in this business 16 years and that's the reality of what I see is that victims of domestic violence are overwhelmingly women and children and but again, that doesn't mean that if a woman commits a crime a domestic violence crime that I won't prosecute it. Of course, I will we are unfortunately about out of time here, but I just wanted to run down a couple of things very briefly. What should a woman do who finds herself in an abusive situation? Who should she call? What should you do in the city of st. Paul? She could certainly contact st. Paul domestic abuse intervention project. Our number is six five one six four five to eight to four. She can also contact the Ramsey County Domestic Abuse office and seek an order for protection and if a man feels (00:46:10) I (00:46:10) was like, well, he's either already abused his partner or feels like he's going to what should he do? There is a number of for an organization called The Men's line, which is actually been very good and their number is 6 1 2 3 7 9 6 367 it's a 24-hour a day number for counseling and what should family members or strangers for that matter do if they suspect or actually witness a incident of abuse. The most important thing they can do is to call the police and describe what they've seen or heard. The Ramsey County Attorney's Office joint prosecution unit is available to discuss resources particularly for children who are in abusive situations of family members who observe this going on and and are concerned about the children should get in touch with us the general number for the county attorney's office has 6512663222. Again, our focus in the joint prosecution unit is on violence in the home where children are present. All right. Thank you very much for joining us. Susan Gartner Ramsey County attorney Alan aide who is with the Saint Paul intervention project? It's about 6 minutes now before 12.