(00:00:10) Good morning, and welcome to midday in Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten. Glad you could join us. If you like to park your car right across the street from the Target Center in downtown Minneapolis. You got some good news this week. It looks like you may not lose your parking space after all on the other hand. If you were assuming that instead of a parking lot that prime block of downtown real estate was going to turn into a glittering new retail and entertainment complex. Well, the news this week has been a little bit more troubling blocky has run into yet. Another snag way back in 1988 City fathers and mothers decided that the heart of downtown needed a major facelift Hennepin Avenue between 6th and 7th streets had become home to a string of CD rundown buildings and businesses now no firm plans were in place to renovate the area, but the city decided to level the block and put in a parking lot while those plans were being firmed up today 12 years later. The parking lot is still Over the years plans for blocky have surfaced and then collapsed with stunning regularity this week. The Minneapolis city council is scheduled to begin final work on financing plans for a 134 million dollar complex that would include a 17 screen movie theater a fancy hotel lots of retail and an underground parking garage final approval of the plan was expected next Tuesday, but then true to form a key investor backed out over the weekend and unless something dramatic happens in the next day or so. The city will be back to square one trying to figure out what to do with blocky. They are. Midday. We're going to take a closer. Look at the blocky story joining us is Sam grabarsky who is president and CEO of the Minneapolis downtown Council. Steve Kramer will be joining us in a few minutes. He's the executive director of the Minneapolis Community Development agency. And as always we invite you to join our conversation if you've got a question or a comment about the future of Blocky and Time of the apis for that matter the future of downtown Minneapolis in general. Give us a call here, six five. One two, two seven six thousand 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one eight hundred two four two two eight 286512276 thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight. Mr. Burski. Thanks for coming in today. Thank you. Glad to be here. Now. There was a interesting quote from longtime City councilmember Joan Campbell in the Star Tribune few days ago saying quote. What is it about this block? Is it cursed what's going on there with well, it's not cursed and I think one of the things one of the ways to describe the situation is that it's a small block and this entire project when built would be about 225,000 square feet. That turns out in the National Market Place to be about a third of what's usually being built in terms of full square footage on downtown blocks in Central Business districts across the United States. So what makes this a difficult project is that as an entertainment center, it's hard to make all of the economics of it work. It would probably be easier to build a large office tower on that block, but that wouldn't fit our design of Hennepin Avenue being a theater district and Entertainment District. So I think we're going to have to stick with that image of what we want to accomplish on Hennepin Avenue and find a way to make this entertainment complex work over the years. Is it your sense that leadership political leadership business leadership? Have you had a Clear Vision of precisely what you want on blocky or is that kind of shifted waxed and waned over time? I believe that everyone wants more on that block than the economics can support to exaggerate to make a point. I probably would like to see something as exciting as the Eiffel Tower built on that block, but it would go bankrupt soon. And then for all I know we'd end up having to tear it down because it couldn't be sustained. The taxpayers wouldn't accept it and pay for it themselves. I think the problem has it has been that we want too much for what the economics of Blocky can sustain. It's not even as large footprint is many of our downtown blocks. And again, this is an Entertainment District some people rightfully say why couldn't it be a multi-block development with all kinds of indoor atriums and open spaces and so forth and that makes sense to a point, but then again Open Spaces are dramatic, but nobody leases them. With nobody leasing any of the Open Spaces, then there's no income. And then that's the end of the project now is there much of a chance that this particular plan for blocky will be salvaged here at the last minute. I think that we have an excellent chance. Although I'm not going to bet my personal fortune on are pulling it out in part because this was such a surprise this pull out. I also heard about it over the weekend. It was confirmed on Monday of this week. The good news. Is that the component that's missing wasn't one of the hardest components to assemble. It was one of the first Parts assembled and that is some cash Equity into the hotel component and only the hotel component everything else about the blocky development is ready for City Council vote. All that has to be found is this 110 million dollar investor or a group of investors? And I do know that I'm personally among others. Trying to talk to local people who would have that kind of resource to invest it is being offered at a highly lucrative interest rate with a very short term period of risk three years or less and for many investors given the time to analyze the whole deal whole deal. They would say this is good. This should be something that my company or my personal Investment Portfolio should include the problem we may have is whether the city council will will miss take this as yet another delay or a problem that Dooms blocky point of fact, I think we will solve this problem if they give us a little time I don't think we need a lot of time but I'm not certain we can be ready by Monday one week is a hard target for finding and ten million dollars no matter how lucrative the investment might be pretty tough though. Isn't it at this point for some some council members to say? Oh you'll have another extension. Well, I'm urging the developers as you as your listeners may know the downtown Council represents the 350 largest businesses in Downtown Minneapolis. This isn't our development. We are generally proactive to try to develop downtown behalf of the broad business Community that's exist there. So this isn't my development that said I'm encouraging the developers to go one-on-one with the city council members and explained by name. All of the groups that have either signed a lease will have signed a lease by tomorrow or may sign a lease within another week to show that this is is so close to being fully leased out that and and that the rest of the package holds together. So well that this is a setback but it is by no means fatal smart fact, the Fatal thing that could happen would be to say that this is over and we To move on because going back to square one will begin with the same problem do we or do we not have confidence that we can find a developer who can build an entertainment oriented complex there and make the economics of it work a Marriott Renaissance hotel is a top-of-the-line Hotel. There are only maybe one or two very blue chip hotels above it in the National Marketplace that's ready to go. The 17 movie screen complex would have a major economic impact for downtown happy ask you to answer your questions as to why I feel that way that's ready to go and although we're still a little reticent until we know that this is going to go forward the name by name the other tenants that will be in there. I can tell you that one would be a sports entertainment complex of national caliber. That's not in this Marketplace. She had a Brewpub of national caliber and meet in many of these cases. These will be the first introductions of these companies into this Marketplace three restaurants, one of them high-end tablecloth of seafood restaurant and then a mid-level mid-price steak restaurant a very large scale Books and Music vendor. I mean very large seems to be ready to sign a lease if they know that the product is a go and there are one or two other tenants that are being considered as well. And in each of these cases, these would be great mixes for downtown in an Entertainment District, but they will go someplace else if we don't land them for here some cases, they might be landed somewhere in the metro area. That would be a win for the metro area. It's also possible. They just skip the Twin Cities and go on to some other Central business district elsewhere in the United States that has the money and and the project ready to go. Most developers won't wait six months to a year to sign a lease. They're ready to go. We could break ground on this in the spring as the sponsor the downtown Council sponsors among other things the Hennepin Avenue block party people might remember two years ago. We sort of said a word Nash a state record by bringing into town the Smashing Pumpkins for the largest free outdoor concert in Minnesota History that was two years ago. We've been doing this for a couple of decades. We have already had to make a different plan as to where the main stage would be. We've always set it up on blocky. It's been one of the byproducts of it being a parking lot. I'm My Own Worst Enemy or at least my staff's worst enemy by wanting to see that under construction this summer so that we cannot may not use the block for the block party. So Amber barsky is with us. He is the president and CEO of the Apple's downtown Council Steve Kramer who is the executive director of Minneapolis Community Development agency will be joining us in a few minutes and we're talking this our about blocky that Prime piece of real estate right in the middle of downtown Minneapolis that has been a parking lot for years and years. Now the plans have come and gone but so far no construction on the Block it looked like things were were finally going to get moving and then sure enough last weekend when we the key investors dropped out of the deal and City officials are now trying to find a replacement. Otherwise many City Council Members say it will be back to square one if you'd like to join our conversation here as to what should happen with blocky and Downtown Minneapolis. Give us a call six five. One two, two seven six thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight 286512276 thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight Tom. Go ahead, please. (00:12:03) Yes, I was greatly relieved. Actually see that the blackie thing imploded even though I'm a great Enthusiast for the City of Minneapolis. I moved here about 30 years ago from New York. I've never been able to figure out why there can't be a vision to see how important this issue of the Theater District is and and regardless of these comments about the Guthrie doesn't want to move into Blackie. I heard something about a study that was done in 94 that their patrons don't want to go there. I can't imagine how we're missing the boat of seeing the Synergy of a theater district a combined with perhaps a Piazza and taking into account some of this open space issue Lincoln Center comes to mind or you have a add a little more underground parking that all the parking behind the Target Center is there ready to go but you put a public space a space that's multi-use and and useful in the daytime for people who work there. But the key is to bring people into downtown Minneapolis at night people from all points of the compass that have That are going to spend money and those people are going to come to theater activities. Why because it's not available any place else the litany that mr. Grabowski has just given us about what this entertainment complex is is kind of ho-hum. I mean people can get that anywhere they want to go to and all these other cities that we see and we have a unique opportunity here. There should be a worldwide architectural contest to design the space. All right, and and I really think that people are missing the boat, but now that this is off the table Cherry homes and those people can't say that black he's taken up make them an offer. They can't refuse. (00:13:42) All right, why not use the Guthrie as the focal point of this block and and really build on the strengths of Hennepin Avenue as a true Theater District. Well, I agree with much of what the caller just stated and I disagree with part of it as well. I think that the Guthrie Theater which wants to build A three-stage complex as just come to the conclusion that that's not the right environment for them to be located there. I don't dismiss that that location would be poor. Actually. I think it would be good for the Guthrie and I think where I agree with the caller is that a theater district has kind of synergy from end to end and if you know what our plans are for the Theater District includes the state and the Orpheum and hey City stage and the man theater would be renovated the Guthrie or these movie screens. I think actually fits the bill, we've got the end up and Center for the Arts and then there's going to be the new Shubert Theater all of that fits together. I think as a world-class Theater District, I don't think that the Guthrie Theater even with three stages would have half as many people visiting blocky as this complex. Actually draw I'm going to continue to be a big proponent for a cinema Multiplex in Downtown Minneapolis. I hope it is on blocky and again why I've done enough study of what happens in other Central Business districts when these things are built they attract all kinds of people who want to come into a downtown environment Park their car and then enjoy the city that the downtown while they're there the average per person spending in the last few that were built outside of the theater was $18 per person that alone has an economic impact that Rivals having a new ballpark or having a new stadium for the Vikings. So from an economic standpoint, this is this would have a major impact on downtown the developers hired one of the most reputable forecasters in the industry and I will admit that a poor forecaster can make statistics lie in there be on their behalf. Of this time. I'm very proud to say that they hired Jim Macomb was one of our best local forecasters. He's rarely wrong and he estimates that 4 million patrons would come the property taxes on the Block would be over four million dollars a year that doesn't have to be estimated. We know what that would be the Guthrie Theater on that block would generate no property taxes and they certainly wouldn't generate four million patrons. I don't want to make a poor estimate as to how many people attend the Guthrie. I think it's a national treasure I go to all their Productions. I'm a big sponsor of them and I also can say there are member of the downtown Council, but I'm going to guess that two million patrons. That's a guess I could be wrong would be about all that. They would be able to sustain we also Don't have outside a downtown for 10 miles in any direction a modern movie complex state of the art. And by the way, I think would make a great place. If you have 17 screens for an International Film Festival, and I've already hinted to that to the state film board Sam grabarsky president and CEO of the Minneapolis downtown Council Steve Kramer joins us now former Minneapolis city council member he is currently the executive director of the Minneapolis Community Development agency morning. (00:17:29) Mr. Kramer. Good morning Gary morning, Sam. Good morning. Thanks for joining us happy to do. (00:17:33) So. Are you confident that a new investor will be found shortly here. And so that the existing plan will move forward. (00:17:42) I think there's an awful lot of work going on towards that end Gary and I believe it's an excellent project. I think it's a good investment for someone and I think that someone will be found so our plan is to work with the City Council next week to have them fully Just and the public investment component of this project and hopefully be in a position on March 3rd to move forward with this initiative. (00:18:05) If all the i's are dotted and the t's crossed come. What is it Tuesday? Well, what's your what's your best guess here? We'll the city council essentially extend the project extend the consideration of the project or will they pull the plug? (00:18:23) Well, I don't want to speculate Gary. I think it's important to keep in mind though that well certainly was disappointing that the equity for the hotel disappeared earlier this week. There are efforts to put it back in place. And even without that Equity. There are 85 million dollars worth of private debt commitments to this project in addition to the consideration of the public financing component of 23 million. So we've gone on awful long way down the road here and all of that's based on significant leasing activity that the developer is accomplished the securing of very high-end Marriott Hotel. So we're awfully close to having the elements for a successful project here. And I think the elected officials will take that into consideration as they review how far the developer can go and what everyone admits is a very short period of time to try to replace that one last financing component the hotel Equity. (00:19:13) Mr. Kramer. Is this the best development that anyone could conceive of for blocky or is this just the best development that's (00:19:25) available? Well, that's a hard question. I think it's certainly the best opportunity that we've had in the years that I've been involved with this block and I go back to the decision to acquire the Block in the late 80s in my role as a council member. It's the best opportunity we've had to fulfill the city's long-standing planning objective of having an entertainment focused activity at this critical location on Hennepin Avenue, which is our entertainment Street as I'm sure you and Sam have been have been discussing so so long as we want to stick with that planning principle. This is our this has been our best opportunity to move forward with fulfilling that principle and I hope we can hope we can pull it (00:20:09) off and you think it's the kind of thing where people once it's constructed of assuming it would go ahead people would say. Wow. This is this is great. This is the best thing. I've ever seen. (00:20:19) Well again, you're setting an awfully high standard their period thing I've ever seen but I do think that the mix of tenants that will be in this project will create a destination for downtown much as our theaters create a destination much as the Guthrie will create a destination on the riverfront. And that's an important element of vital downtown having activities that are one-of-a-kind the draw people from all over the region literally all over the Upper Midwest and I think some of the activities in this project will be of that nature (00:20:57) Builds on the line from Elk River with a comment on blocky. Go ahead (00:21:01) Bill. Good morning. Just a question. I'm curious if anybody's ever thought about putting a casino and blocky and maybe use the proceeds to fund ballparks and that kind of stuff. I'll take my answer off the Earth. Thank you. Okay, John. (00:21:16) Well, I hope The caller appreciates honest answers because I'm going to give one of course. We've thought about a casino and whether or not there or on the riverfront would be a good location for one and I think our official position is this and I'm saying this with a smile if a casino in an urban location is going to be built. I want it as close as possible to downtown Minneapolis or as far away from it as possible from Downtown Minneapolis. And so there isn't a lot of interest Among the population at large though for us to have one and one of the things I've learned in analyzing that very issue. Is that often people who come to casinos make the trip to the casino and then leave and that other than having some sort of a profit-sharing situation with the casino where the City of Minneapolis would benefit and the full cost of security is reimbursed. And so forth of all the tenants you can have in a downtown location. The one that contributes the least to the overall quality of life for that Community happens to be an in-district urban Casino. Mmm. (00:22:37) I would just add to that and I'm far from an expert in this area. But I recall when this sort of issue has come up before not necessarily with respect to blocky but other tribal activities in the city, I believe it's the case that were a casino to be constructed the that ground would literally be The Sovereign tribal ground which raises a host of issues for any municipality about cross jurisdictional issues over Public Safety and things of that sort. So it's in addition to the issues that Sam sites. It's a question for misspelled government. That's a fairly difficult one to work through. (00:23:13) Let's get one more caller on here. We before we break for headlines carry your comment on blocky. (00:23:19) Yes. I believe that the city would benefit most if we put the public library and put a really Grand one on that block and then devote the rest of it to a festival area that would Almost certainly guarantee that every other restaurant in every other business retail business downtown would benefit from this and I think there is something to be said for slowing down the the creation of new restaurants and new lava blah. Okay, and just one more comment. I want to make this is not the first investor who has pulled out of this of plans for this black and that says to me that there's something basically wrong with trying to put And pulled entertainment center. Close quote one more (00:24:24) thing. All right. Well, let's get some time answer because we do have to take a break a Steve Kramer. What about a library? (00:24:30) We have a process in place to evaluate options for construction of a new Public Library, which is a very very high priority for the city blocky isn't currently on that list. Obviously. Our Focus has been on trying to get this entertainment project done. If blocky ends up back in play that implementation committee that's been formed to look at the new library. I'm sure we'll take that into consideration and determine if they want to broaden their their site search or not. (00:25:02) The other part of carries question given the history here with blocky all of the plans that have fallen through overtime. Does that tell you something about say essentially? Well, maybe this is just not a good idea and we need to rethink this (00:25:19) completely. My own view is that every year downtown gets gets stronger as Samwell knows we have more workers. We have more residents. We have more of the the economic might help make a project like this work in addition to a project drawing from the from the broader region. So I think the market is getting stronger and I don't think it's time to abandon the long-standing city principle of planning principle having entered entertainment focused uses on Hennepin (00:25:48) Avenue. We're talking this our about blocky that piece of prime real estate right in the heart of downtown Minneapolis. And what happens next there were plans for a big retail entertainment complex on blocky. It looked like all systems were go and then sure enough last weekend a key investor dropped out efforts are underway to find a replacement. But in the meanwhile, there are some questions about what happens in the future whether the City Council next week will essentially go back to square one weather. Some kind of an extension will be granted. We're interested in your comments on blocky and Downtown Minneapolis. What do you think should happen with it? Six five one two, two seven six thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight 286512276 thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight our guests this our Sam grabarsky president CEO of the Minneapolis downtown Council and Steve Kramer executive director of the Minneapolis Community Development agency. Wolves are back in Europe. And in Germany, they've managed to turn a potential livestock liability into profitable eco-tourism. The interest has increased a lot and due to that. Also the attitude of people towards these large carnivores has changed dramatically into a positive way. We'll get the story from the wolf conference in Duluth on the next All Things Considered weekdays at 3:00 on Minnesota public radio programming an NPR is supported by Schmaltz Countryside Volkswagen featuring the new Jetta now with over 40 features standard drivers are wanted in st. Paul six five one four eight 48441 news headlines. Now, here's Greta Cunningham Greta. (00:27:30) Thanks Gary. Good morning. The energy Department says the price of gas at the pump will probably go up some more in the next few months officials say that's because stocks have gasoline and oil are still low and energy official told a senate panel this morning that low inventories of crude oil and heating and diesel fuel led to the sharp and sudden price increases of Recent weeks average heating oil costs in the Northeast jumped 66 percent Republican Presidential hopeful John McCain is campaigning in California where he's billing himself as a Reagan Republican the former president's home state holds its crucial Primary in just under two weeks McCain's Republican opponent George W bush campaigned in California. Yesterday Prince Rainier of Monaco was discharged from the hospital today after 22 days and two long operations officials say the prince is resting at home in Regional news. The Minnesota Senate has overwhelmingly rejected the confirmation of Steve men a vote that immediately removes him from Office mid watched the debate from the Senate Gallery as the vote went against him afterward. Min said he would serve without pay for the next couple of days to ensure a smooth hand off to his Deputy Senate Majority Leader Roger Mo personally urge mins rejection Governor Ventura pointed men to lead the public service department early last year in August the governor merged the public service department with the Commerce (00:28:47) department and appointed. To lead the merged agencies many (00:28:51) legislators were unhappy that Ventura did not consult them before merging (00:28:54) the two agencies. They also say they have problems with men's personality (00:28:59) the forecast for the state of Minnesota calls for Cloudy Skies Statewide with high temperatures near 45 in the north to 55 in the South tonight a chance of showers in the north a good chance of showers and thunderstorms in the South as (00:29:10) well. Low temperatures tonight near 30 in the north to 50 in the (00:29:13) south at this hour report a fog over most locations Rochester reports fog and 44. It's foggy and Saint Cloud and 37 fogging in Duluth and 36 and in the Twin Cities some fog a temperature of 43 Gary. That's a look at the latest (00:29:27) news. All right. Thanks Greta. It's about 24 minutes now before noon. This is midday on Minnesota Public Radio in this hour we're talking about plans for blocky in Downtown Minneapolis right in the heart of downtown Minneapolis right across from the Target Center. And another proposal is in some trouble. It looked like things were going along smoothly and Perhaps the city council would put its imprimatur on plans to go ahead with a 134 million dollar entertainment retail complex next Tuesday, but alas over the weekend this past weekend a key investor dropped out and those plans are now up in the air. If you'd like to join our conversation about what to do with blocky. Give us a call here six five one two, two seven six thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800 to for 228286512276 thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight our guests Steve Kramer executive director of the Minneapolis Community Development agency and Sam grabarsky who is president and CEO of the Minneapolis downtown Council Sarah. Go ahead Place. (00:30:34) Yeah. Hi. I have a question and a comment a question is why Governor Ventura hasn't shown more of an interest in this project and tried to interest his friend Donald Trump in this development. And my comment is that it sounds like this is going to be another project like St. Anthony Maine where which is me where I live which is now just sort of a sad empty piece of is probably Prime real estate who waiting for some developer to take an interest. Okay. Let's see. Let's (00:31:10) take those in order the governor and Donald (00:31:15) Trump. I think that's a good question for Sam. (00:31:20) Well, I'm beginning to know our governor. I can say that I have never brought this subject up to him. And the next time I see him, I will (00:31:29) and what about (00:31:31) Sarah's comment that from her perspective. Anyway, this sounds like yet another one of those. Developments that might look pretty good on paper, but could very well end up to be kind of a ghost town. Unfortunately. In this case. It would be right in the middle of downtown. Well, maybe Steve will agree Steve. I think that one of the reasons that this one thing that differentiates differentiates this project from the st. Anthony Main project investors are especially careful these days in seeing that there's a low risk and high return on their Investments. And then I think one of the reasons we're having trouble have had trouble getting this to work financially is because many investors have either take the risk or they can find a much more profitable investment. Other than this block. (00:32:29) Would you agree? I think that's right Sam and that takes the form of releasing requirements and pretty stringent due diligence that lenders and Equity Partners pursue and in these matters, I think the other factor with Saint Anthony Main is it was not and is not located in the Or a business district with all of the traffic back and forth between the business core and the warehouse District. So I think from a location standpoint blocky is better better suited and as much higher likelihood of success (00:33:06) on the one hand while it's you know, in the private developer could make more money doing something else the plan as it existed was already coming in for criticism for the heavy Public Funding involved in this project, right 39 million dollars. (00:33:20) Yes. I think that that should be underestimated the city council members and the mayor have a significant discussion ahead of them about Public Finance plan that I hope can occur next week, but you're quite right. There are aspects of this plan that need and deserve and weren't close scrutiny and consideration. I think we've put together a finance plan. That is the best possible under the circumstances. And so the question becomes should we take advantage as a This opportunity to fulfill this long-standing planning objective and we'll have to see what the answer to that question is, but you're right Gary there will be some significant discussions about the public financing in the next week. (00:34:03) I would also add that one of the reasons that I think it's appropriate for the city council to consider this opportunity is because it does offer a good rate of return on that investment for the citizens of Minneapolis. If not, the citizens of the state again, the projected property taxes would be over four million dollars. Annually. The Minneapolis sales taxes alone is projected at just under 3 million dollars annually and the state of Minnesota Minnesota in sales taxes alone would see over six million dollars. Annually, which makes me think I better get on the phone to the governor to see if he could call Donald Trump, which reminds me that Pat Buchanan's going to be here over the noon hour mark here question. Lace, (00:34:51) yes, I have a question and a comment first. The question is we're trying to understand if there has been any downtown user input as to the various types of plans what they would like to see both the business people that work downtown as well as the citizens of Minneapolis. You know, how are they in favor of any of the variety of different proposals out there whether it's Parks or entertainment retail complexes and then the comment it seems like the primary thing we see happening is an attempt to attract people's money. And when we think about what attracts us to the great cities of the world, you know, we traveled at New York and Paris etcetera. It's not entertainment retail complexes. It's great open public spaces its buildings with beautiful architecture. Its theater its museums. We believe if you build something that attracts people people will bring their money and the entrepreneurs the local businesses will figure out how to get money out of the people and we don't need to have something specifically built and designed it seems to be to to attract Of money, okay. Thank you very much. I'll take your comments off the (00:35:53) air. All right, let's take those in reverse order. What about the concept that you really come up with something unique for many apples, even if on paper it's not going to generate a whole lot of money, but as Mark says it would be really spiffy people would come to actually, you know to see it and so on while they're there the drop drop some bucks to is that a different way a better way to look at this project. (00:36:19) I'm not sure. I'm sorry. Could you repeat? I'm not sure I understood your version of that (00:36:22) question people try to get the people down there and not worry so much about finding something to get them there so they can spend their (00:36:28) money. I see. Yeah. Well, I think any great downtown is a mosaic of different different uses and we've worked very hard and I think increasingly successfully to reopen the riverfront is exactly the kind of people place with the Grandeur of the Mississippi has or the drawing card, and I think we're going to be creating Some wonderful urban districts along the river on both Banks over the next several years in this particular situation my own View and I'm not a policy maker, but my my view is that this block is better suited for physical development that is entertainment focused that has as a part of the mix destination types of uses to bring people into downtown as well as to serve the growing working and a and residential population downtown and to link the business core with the warehouse district and the and and the Target Center. I think there's sound planning behind that sort of approach and if this project doesn't work, I think everything's back on the table including the idea of a of a gathering space or or a park but I would have to be convinced that that's a better alternative than and then a physical development on this (00:37:45) block people had a chance to weigh in on the planning for this project Sam. I think that the City of Minneapolis has among the most encompassing Democratic planning systems in of all the cities in the United States people will sometimes misunderstand when we focus on one block and seem stubborn in our attempt to make it fit the the plan we have for that given block, but I think that MCD a the city council the downtown Council and the various neighborhood associations are quite vocal about what they think downtown needs and we're all good listeners and what sometimes happens is that people join the conversation late and then don't see how it all holds together. We've been trying for years for instance to get a Target store in downtown. Now, we're on the verge of having one. Some people are saying well, why do we want that? Who what input do we have there? But we had input for 10 years including everybody asking for one. We're about to get a grocery store (00:38:45) Steve hope so yeah, we're working on it (00:38:47) and I think that downtown from a From a perspective of the residence is in dire need of some other Neighborhood Services hardware stores video stores a variety of things that will serve as this burgeoning Urban population. We have you know, I say this out loud and people sometimes don't believe me but having visited these cities and done the research. We now have more people living in our Central business district downtown Minneapolis close to 25,000 people. That's more than downtown Denver Dallas Indianapolis combined and so a lot of what the neighborhood residents want is important to us because that's part of our responsibility to make downtown work. I can tell you then among the first questions that all of the conventioneers ask when they come to town. However is where the movie theaters live or not movies are very popular with conventioneers, and we have a top-10 convention District as well. So I'm just The throw out that a lot of people want this complex to work. I do think it's always appropriate and the way Minneapolis works for others to challenge it and say I just think you're wrong and block the would be better off as a park or a place for the central library or for the Guthrie Theater. That's why I think Minneapolis is a great place in which to live. Maybe you can have a drive-in movie theater. Then you get your movie theater your parking lot and you could have come below Park to go with it. But by the way, there are 550 parking spaces and to levels that are planned to go there. So and your promo said that people Park their car their will look forward to not being able to actually think that's more than we have now. (00:40:30) I think my for we four-year-old would vote for the drive-in theater. That's a good idea (00:40:33) here reg go ahead place, (00:40:36) but it's one of a couple people have already mentioned it but where I would like to see a movie theater downtown, I live near downtown and something in this but especially with And if they have no block party and whatnot, I think a product would be something that is unique that no other City really has and you know, you have concerts and summer time you put a skating rink there in the in the winter time and you can just kind of see you know, what develops with having a multi-use kind of public gathering space because other than TV Plaza is not much spot on the already have the barn and whatnot nearby. So I just wanted to kind of elaborate on that. Thank you very much. All (00:41:12) right, we do need more green spaces in downtown. I might disagree that we need a whole block Green Space right there in the middle of the Theater District. I do think that the whole district will fit together better if it's built out then as a green space. Is there any concern if you went down the Park Road that you would end up with a Park full of vagrants is that at the root of a lot of people's concern? I think again Minnesota is unique among Minneapolis in particular unique among many American cities where I think the milk of human kindness is very evident here. We're building Ders, we have a zero-tolerance community policing policy yet the police officers appear to treat the homeless with great respect and I don't think there's a reason for anybody to be hungry in Downtown Minneapolis other cities across the country and I visited many have a major problem. Now with that very thing that green spaces large Parks do become a gathering places for vagrants. I'm not saying that would be the case here, but I do think we would as a community be challenged to make certain that the park was inviting to all people and were at to become a Holding Center for people with rights who are homeless. I think that the peep the very people who wish that there were a park there wouldn't actually go to that Park. Marry your question, please (00:42:44) thank you. I was wondering has there been Any discussion or thought about the city center? That's right across the street from Blackie and I was just there a couple weeks ago and I was really surprised to see how empty that space has become in such a short period of time when 10 years ago. It was just crowded and busy shopping and eating Center. I'll listen to the answer off the air Steve Kramer. Well, certainly City Centre is not the vibrant retail area that it was several years ago. We believed and we're told by the management company that deals with City Center that having the blocky development will be a key to unleashing leasing potential for City Centre as well. But I would have to acknowledge that the strength of downtown retail City Center and other areas is something that we're monitoring very closely and trying to stand in dialogue with with Sam and and the retailers. Of the first official meetings. I attended as CD executive director, I think was convened by salmon the mayor's office to talk about try to be proactive about the future of retail downtown more than a few people including United properties of reputable real estate commercial real estate broker and in the Twin Cities feels that this blocky project will be kind of a linchpin for success in the future and we have to hope that's the way it will work. If the project goes (00:44:11) forward does downtown really need a new hotel. Absolutely. I think of the argument may be whether or not we need one really large hotel or whether a series of smaller hotels. We have just over 5,300 hotel rooms in downtown today. The convention center tells us they need a thousand hotel rooms more. We have that many on the drawing board if you include the new hotels at the Milwaukee Depot if blocky Hotel comes to fruition and if Opus bills that new Weston, The North End of Nicollet Mall, but convention industry would say that a lot of people who book conventions do like to deal with one hotel where they can get a block of 500 rooms. They don't like to have to deal with little contracts with little hotels. I think the hotel on blocky would be more of a tourist in upscale Hotel very much if you've visited Midtown Manhattan, there are some very popular hotels right in the Theater District. Now that are all the rage the movie stars stay there for all I know the Timberwolves visiting teams would all stay there. I don't think that that particular Hotel contributes much to the industry need for conventions would agree with that. We are excuse me just about out of time here, but let's get one more caller on quickly a quick comment (00:45:32) Kevin. Yeah. I wanted to make the comment that as downtown is overly crowded when there is a Timberwolves game or anything having anywhere from theaters, like a multiplex to the regular theater and the Serena it's kind of a nightmare to even go down there and to focus that much entertainment when area is is kind of overwhelming. I mean it the more it gets like that the less I want to be down there. Well II appreciate that opinion. I have a have an opposite reaction. I when I go downtown and it's crowded and vibrant and people are honking their horns. I mean, I feel like that's something special that only Minneapolis has and I think that this project would add to that sense of vibrancy intersection between Target Center in this project along First Avenue, I think would be something very very special the way the project is designed and will really give many apples that distinctly Urban (00:46:26) feel too much of a good thing Sam. If it were built I think Steve's answer was excellent. I have found that no two people will agree as to what makes downtown safe and vibrant and attractive for some people large crowds as the is the Pinnacle of Vitality and the safest downtown possible for others. No one quiet. No, Cars and site peaceful the sound of birds is what stands for Vitality for them and I think both are right, but this is an Entertainment District now again, I have to be completely understood on this every major city and I United States says if you don't have activity large Towers Entertainment theaters Central library's in your central business district, where will you have them? We certainly don't want 5,000 people spilling onto the street and somebody's neighborhood. I think Downtown Minneapolis is a great place for crowds. Well gentlemen, we're out of time but no shortage of interest in this subject. A lot of people are watching lot of people wanted to call in and we sure appreciate your joining us this hour. Thanks so much. Thank you our guest this our Sam grabarsky president and CEO of the Minneapolis downtown Council. Also joining us Steve Kramer the executive director of the Minneapolis Community Development agency joining us this first hour of our midday program to talk about E latest plans have run into a snag key investor has stepped aside, but efforts are underway to find a replacement and city council members will get together on Monday to try to figure out what happens next with blocky. It's the American dream an ethnic group makes good moves from the city to the suburbs outside Washington DC Prince George's County. Maryland is an African American success story. I'm Juan Williams join us for a discussion of race class and changing demographics on our first changing face of America town meeting the next Talk of the Nation from NPR news/talk of the nation begins at 1 o'clock this afternoon over the noon hour in just 5 minutes. We'll be talking with Reform Party presidential candidate Pat.