(00:00:24) Good morning, and welcome to midday and Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten. Glad you could join us. Well this week course and Minnesota Public Radio. We've been featuring a series of special reports and call ins on privacy. The surveillance Society. Most of those reports have focused on the concerns that people have about their perceived loss of privacy. But over the noon hour today. We're going to hear from a man who says the loss of privacy May. In fact be good for us. Amitai. Etzioni is speaking at today's Minnesota meeting. We'll have live coverage of that speech over the noon hour now during this first hour of. Midday. We're going to give you a chance to catch up on some of the stories. You may have missed this week this hour, we'll be taking a closer. Look at Social Security numbers. Some people say it's to become a national identity number will go dumpster diving for personal information will visit a hospital where medical records are there for the viewing we'll go shopping and we'll hear from a couple of women who have sworn off virtually any claim to privacy all of that coming up. Sour, but let's begin at the beginning we tend to think of privacy as a universally acknowledged right enshrined in the constitution. In fact, the Constitution doesn't specifically mention privacy in the very concept of personal privacy has risen to prominence only in the last 30 years historically when the US Supreme Court in Congress have taken privacy into consideration. It's usually lost out to other interests but Advocates have dubbed privacy the Civil Rights issue of the information age. They believe that consumers and constituents will soon create a Groundswell of support for stronger privacy rights, Minnesota public radio's Amy radel reports (00:02:03) in Minnesota the right to sue someone for invasion of privacy is extremely new one year old to be exact Minnesota had been one of the last three states were privacy could not be used as the basis for a lawsuit but that changed after a lawsuit filed in 1995 by two college students at Morehead State University the two women Ellie Lake and Melissa Weber went on vacation in Acapulco where Weber sister jokingly snapped a photo of them together naked they took their film to Walmart and received it back with a slip saying one photo contain nudity and wasn't developed that didn't bother them until Weber says it became clear other people had somehow seen the (00:02:43) picture at our school. We're in a sorority and we had had a fraternity brother come up to us saying something about that. He had seen this picture and described it in detail (00:02:54) Lake and Weber sued Walmart for invasion of privacy Walmart's lawyers argued the right to privacy didn't exist in Minnesota. There case went to the Minnesota Supreme Court, which overturned a hundred years of legal history to rule in their favor and established a whole new right for minnesotans Lake and Weber say, they never intended to be privacy Crusaders, but as they pursued their case Weber says her assumptions about the very existence of privacy were (00:03:20) eroded. I don't know you just don't expect as much Privacy is you normally would have you know, when you're addressing the rooms trying on clothes your little bit more cautious about what's going on or who seen you wear or you know, just things I just think you know, you just can't trust anyone (00:03:38) nowadays. Melissa Weber says, she's still never seen the photo at the heart of their Case Photography was in fact the Catalyst for the first strong Declaration of privacy rights in US legal history a century ago in an 1890 Harvard Law review article entitled the right to privacy Samuel Warren and a young lawyer named Louis Brandeis voiced anxiety that quote instantaneous photographs and newspaper Enterprise have invaded the sacred precincts of private and domestic life by 1928 Brandeis was on the Supreme Court where he stood alone in saying government wiretap should be illegal without a warrant Mark rothenburg who's on the front lines of current privacy debates as head of the Washington dc-based Electronic Privacy. See information center finds Brandeis has concern for privacy (00:04:27) prophetic. I think what what Brandeis wrote about so eloquently both in the 1890 law review article and also a famous descent and a 1928 wiretap case is the idea that law has to advance as technology advances and that privacy is one of the critical rights of people in a Democratic Society. (00:04:51) However, Brandeis is call for our right to privacy went largely unnoticed and unheated it would take several decades for the Cold War to create true alarm over government excesses and information gathering epitomized in the investigations of Senator Joseph McCarthy in this 1954. Speech McCarthy addresses the Irish Fellowship Club of Chicago telling about Communists all out attempts to try and curb his (00:05:15) powers. What you'll find is the all-out attempt to try and curb. The powers of the investigating committee change the rules if you please make it tougher to investigate communists. That is to expose Crooks and dishonest (00:05:34) later the cloak-and-dagger aspects of the Watergate scandal further compounded public concern over government intrusions on private life legal historian. Linda private chefs key says in reaction to these events Scholars began to write about the importance of privacy and the need to protect it raising alarms about psychological testing and government surveillance by the 60s people are writing about this but in the late 50s, they start doing this to Legal Scholars, but also some popular writers, so writing and drawing people's attention to it and saying this is dangerous because what this reminds us of is authoritarian government and there is no point in fighting the Communists this way because this is what they are. They're authoritarian. They pry into people's lives. They live a life like George Orwell's 1984. (00:06:27) There is no loyalty. There's no luck, except love big brother. all competing pleasures They will destroy. (00:06:43) Privacy Scholars raised the powerful Specter of George Orwell's 1984 among judges and legislators the ideological climate began to change in favor of protecting privacy in 1967. The rest of the US Supreme Court cited with Brandeis has early decision and ruled wiretapping without a warrant illegal the Privacy Act of 1974 prohibited government agencies from sharing information from their files with each other but these measures have left many loopholes in her book legislating privacy, George Mason University Professor, Priscilla Regan documents the ways privacy issues often get buried in Congress and she says online information and databases have a way of highlighting American scanty legal protections. I think technology has revealed gaps in existing legislation in the area of medical privacy or medical records. For example, we have not had legislation. So the fact now that you can have medical records online and quick easy exchanges of information between a health care provider and insurance company and employer have exacerbated the Privacy problem the hot-button privacy issues of the moment our privacy on the internet and in medical and financial information Congress has shown little inclination to tackle these issues and the Clinton Administration has endorsed industry self-regulation on the internet. However, the US Department of Health and Human Services is writing regulations to tighten the privacy of medical records and privacy experts say State officials are stepping in to fill voids in privacy (00:08:23) protection. There's a lot of other movement among class action lawsuit that could result in better protections and Congress is offering right now. (00:08:32) Evan Hendrix is the editor of the Washington dc-based privacy times. He cites Minnesota attorney general. Mike hatches case against us Ain't Corp, which revealed the company's practice of selling customers credit card numbers to telemarketers (00:08:46) the the response to that by customers learning that their credit cards were being sold like this just really led to a Swift and certain public outcry against it. There's no question that bank customers did not want their information being used this way. And that's why the banks were doing it secretly (00:09:06) Hendrix calls our current age the best of times and the worst of times for privacy protection. He says technology allows business and government together more and more information on all of us, but he says Americans are protesting more filing lawsuits like Ellie Lake in Melissa Weber, ironically after winning the right to sue for privacy at the state supreme court Lake and Weber lost their case in County court. All of the Walmart employees called to testify denied ever seeing the photo the jury agreed their privacy was violated, but couldn't determine whose fault it was the right. To privacy is elusive even in law those championing the cause say their goals are clear telling people what information is being collected on them and how it will be used giving citizens the right to say no. I'm Amy radel Minnesota Public (00:09:55) Radio Europeans have more protection from intrusive Commerce than we do here in the United States. If you lived in Europe, you could discover what businesses know about you you could block marketers from filling your mailbox with junk and stop them from selling your name to other companies. However, Europeans generally have limited private e privacy protection from their own government's Minnesota public radio's John Gordon reports in 1995, the European Union enacted a measure that requires all member countries to craft comprehensive privacy laws, EU official Sue bins a liaison to the US government on privacy issues says the European Union privacy directive is designed to ensure Italians have the same rights as the French. Ins says some EU countries with histories of repressive governments had inadequate privacy protection and the playing field needed to be leveled. There are a number of member states in the European Union, which have had non democratic governments in living memory. I mean your East Germany is now part of the whole of Germany the Greeks the Portuguese the Spaniards have all had regime's in living memory that is not really respected the rule of law and have been dictatorial and rather than Democratic many Europeans and Americans believe they should be mostly free of business and government snooping but the laws are very different u.s. Privacy laws are narrower and address specific concerns such as medical records the sweeping EU privacy directive allows Europeans to protect their personal data from any industry that would like to exploit it and each country has an independent powerful privacy's are to enforce the laws. Peter Swire is Chief advisor to the White House on privacy policy in Europe privacy is seen as a human right the way data is processed about you is your individual data is protected by human rights in the United States. There's often the legal treatment of the data as if it belongs to the company, if you do a transaction with the company, the company uses that information for its Nets transaction. It sells the records to who it wants to say you subscribe to Sports Illustrated the magazine can sell your name and everything. He knows about you to a buyer of its choosing in Europe Sports Illustrated would have to notify its subscribers of its intentions and customers have the right to opt out many privacy advocates in the USA. It's time to use the European model here Joel Ridin Berg is a law professor at Fordham University in New York city in the United States today citizens have very little protection against information trafficking and it is occurring in both alarming and outrageous. Passions. I can buy list of people with particular medical ailments. I can buy lists of nursery school children organized by their will their parents religion. I mean, it's just astounding what kind of information is available for sale in the United States that citizens have no legal right to stop. That's not the situation in Europe because of their data privacy laws. So I think we should be very envious of that European Privacy Law in some ways is the flip side of that of the u.s. American law offers more protection from government intrusion. For example, one law prevents government agencies from sharing personal data with each other Americans tend to put more trust in how private interests use information and favor given companies a chance to regulate themselves the EU directive places more trust in government Less in Commerce Europeans are likely to think the idea of industry self-regulation is laughable that the government has to keep industry on Test why is European Privacy Law so different for one it reflects the eu's penchant for sweeping all inclusive laws, Jane curtly professor of Journalism at the University of Minnesota. And an expert on privacy issues says Europeans are less likely to worry about big brother. (00:13:58) It's the difference between being suspicious of government and believing the government is the answer to all ills and frankly my own view is that the American idea is to say, you know with a raised eyebrow. Why do you want this power government? And what is it you intend to do with it and you're asking me to believe that this is to protect me. I'm skeptical about (00:14:21) that business interest in the US have worried the EU directive could wreak havoc with electronic Commerce because it bars companies doing business in Europe from transmitting personal data to countries that don't guarantee comparable privacy protection like the US officials from the EU and the US Commerce Department say they will likely reach a Eyes that will protect both American businesses with European customers and the privacy of those European consumers John Gordon, Minnesota Public Radio back here in this country when the federal government started using social security cards of five decades ago. Some people worried that social security numbers would evolve into an all-purpose National identification system turns out they were right these days the number tracks everything from college students to video store customers and it's virtually impossible to get by without one nevertheless many Americans resisted believing. The number has the power to unlock personal information privacy experts say that people are right to guard their social security number, but they also warned the keeping. The number secret is no guarantee of privacy, Minnesota public. Radio's Martin. Kosti reports. Many Americans believe it's illegal to use the social security number as an ID. It's an understandable misconception up until 1971. The social security card actually came with a printed warning against using the number for identification purposes. But that was never more than a suggestion and one the US government itself has rarely followed Evan Hendrix editor of the Privacy times newsletter says the evolution of the social security number is a symbol of what happens to personal data in the modern world. They said it was only going to be for the purpose of tracking your Social Security account and then slowly and quietly. It was used for driver's license records. Now, you have to give it to your bank all government agencies use it as the identification number and so the the original promise that it was only going to be used for one purpose was one of the great lies the American people and some Americans are rebelling against the broadening uses of the social security number in the last few years groups. Most of the number have proliferated on the internet with websites and mailing lists many groups are motivated by religious beliefs Scott McDonald a construction worker in Alabama runs a website known as fight the fingerprint in the Book of Revelation. It talks about this numbering system that kind of a world type worldwide government will require people to have in order to buy or sell and I see that happening with the social security number whether it is the mark of the beast or not. It it conforms to all the criteria but religion isn't the only reason he and other people object to the Social Security number McDonald's says many of the members of his mailing list simply worry about the numbers power to cross-reference all sorts of private data ranging from Financial records to Medical histories that single identifier can bring all that information together in one location, which makes it in an Essence one huge large database everything about you can be collected through the internet right now using that Numbers hostility to Universal identification systems runs deep in American culture something that may explain why it took Decades of incremental change for the social security number to become the national ID representative Ron Paul of Texas. One of the most outspoken privacy Hawks in Congress says his constituents are still very suspicious of the number we've done some polling and 80% of the people in my district as well as across Texas are very concerned and upset about the trends of the for the federal government toward using the social security number the way they do the most recent flash point in the battle over. The number has been the 1996 illegal immigration and reform responsibility act which directed states to require Social Security numbers from all driver's license applicants Congressman Paul interpreted the law as an effort to use the social security number to create a de facto national ID by yoking all the state driver's license databases. Together with the social security number as the common denominator. The system would have taken effect in October of 2000 but this fall Congressman Paul and other conservative Republicans got the House and Senate to repeal it Congress has put some other limits on the government's use of the number most agencies can ask for it. But usually only on a voluntary basis and they're supposed to tell you when it's voluntary only a few agencies can demand the number out right? Most notably the IRS the private sector on the other hand is free to demand the social security number whenever it wants to a situation that sometimes leads to a test of Wills with customers privacy Advocate Twila braised describes her experience with a nurse's aide at a doctor's (00:19:16) office. He said, oh I see you didn't fill you in your social security number and could I have it and I said, well, I don't give it out and she said well we have to have it and I said no you don't you can just find another number at which point she tried to leave through my entire medical record to find the Social Security. Number which I had never given and then she was frustrated and she said well fine. I guess we (00:19:38) will praise who runs a lobbying group known as Citizens for choice in healthcare says, although she makes it a point to withhold her number. She understands why most Americans give in (00:19:48) if you're not a nurse, if you're not part of the medical profession, you think that possible possibly not giving out your social security number will be detrimental to your (00:19:57) health. So is it worth all the time and effort to be stubborn about your social security number Robert? Gelman is a consultant who's worked on privacy issues in and out of government since the 1970s and he says people should protect the number but they shouldn't think that's enough to protect their privacy people react emotionally to disclosure of social security number, but they may pay less attention to other substantive in bits of information about themselves where they work how much they make and that sort of thing. Gilman says in some ways the sixth decade old controversy over the dangers of a national identity number. Has been overtaken by technology linking records isn't all that difficult anymore. Even if you don't have a common number you can you can do fuzzy searching to match names, even though the names are in different forms and addresses and it's actually not that difficult Gelman would like to see a more comprehensive National policy on the privacy of all personal data and he says the obsession with the social security number often serves to distract citizens and elected officials from more pressing privacy questions such as whether customers should have the right to see the personal information that companies and the government have already collected. I'm Martin kosti Minnesota Public Radio, you're listening to a special series of reports the surveillance Society a look at privacy or the lack of It in America reminder that much much more on the issue of privacy can be found on our website at MP r dot org, make sure if you check in that you take the privacy. Goes on the website reminder that over the noon hour. We'll hear from amitai etzioni a man who says this perceived loss of privacy May. In fact be a good thing for us also a special reminder of a special broadcast starting at 1 o'clock this afternoon, we're going to zero in on the University of Minnesota athletic Scandal reports out that to top athletic Administration officials are being removed Mark yudof president of the University will have a press conference at two o'clock this afternoon, and we'll have live coverage of that press conference. So special broadcast from 1:00 to 3:00 this afternoon on the situation at the University right now back to the surveillance society and lest you think that privacy is just one of those theoretical issues discussed by the big thinkers an issue. That doesn't actually affect your life. Well, how about identity theft one of the fastest growing crimes in the United States criminals are using readily available personal information to steal billions of dollars in make life miserable for hundreds of And some Americans as Minnesota public radio's Dan Gunderson reports identity theft is a crime that can be easy to commit and very difficult to solve. It happens to an estimated 400,000 Americans a year and it happened to Dave fix fix runs an auto body shop in a small North Dakota town about three years ago. He got a call from a South Dakota Bank demanding payment for $9,000 in rubber checks checks this day fix had not written and so began a two-year nightmare. He'd been to came words and Walmart's and Shields and all these bigger stores and well here we are Christmas shopping and trying to buy things and we get into a department store and there's people standing all around you and here they refuse you take a check from you because of this and the kids are there and they're asking why they don't take checks from this that that's pretty humiliating and people around you always look at you like boy some kind of a crook, you know, a big spend hours talking on the phone and filling out paperwork trying to convince on Apathetic creditors. He was not responsible for the spending spree the unpleasant experience turned unbelievable when they fix went to renew his driver's license when I went up there and I told him, you know, I was day fix. Well, they typed it into their computer and here came the picture of my driver's license and with his picture on she says, well, you're not a fix this guy as Isis. No, I'm day fix what we kind of got a little Shuffle, you know, and it was really it's hard to prove to somebody that don't know you who you are, you know things had to call in his local sheriff to vouch for his identity. He says local law enforcement took his case seriously, but few others did fix says he faced hostility from Credit Agencies and indifference from many law enforcement agencies, including an FBI agent. He asked for help. We had the name we had where he was working, you know, or the area he was writing checks in and we had copies of the checks with everything else and he saw it don't really matter. We got other things to do. So he was really I mean point-blank said more or less. We don't care. You know, you got your problems we got Experts say law enforcement is often unwilling or unprepared to investigate identity theft Craig welkin is FBI agent in charge in Fargo. He says no statistics are kept on identity theft. He says it's often seen as a paper crime not worth the effort and expense. It takes to investigate while the big problem is is it very difficult to find these people because they frequently will change the identifications they have fairly quickly. So they may use your identity for a period of time and then they discard it. So it maybe two months they've done a great deal of damage and they've discarded it. There's no further way to track them the man who stole Dave fix identity and trust is a case in point Alan Ray wreck served a short sentence for attempting to buy a new truck posing as Dave fix, but still another identity within weeks of getting out of jail. Rick has used so many aliases some law enforcement records don't even have the right information. Rick is now in a federal prison after a recent conviction. none bank fraud charges some identity thieves use high-tech chicanery to get personal information from cyberspace but experts say most like Alan Rick use decidedly low-tech methods to steal Dave fix identity. He simply called the state of North Dakota and bought a copy of fix birth certificate something easily done in Most states Beth Givens director of the national privacy rights Clearing House says, it's too easy to get such a critical document. Once you've got somebody's birth certificate, then you can get a driver's license with driver's license, then you can go and perhaps get a so-called duplicate of the social security number and then you've got a full set of ID documents and you're off and running by next year. Minnesota will require anyone asking for a duplicate birth certificate to prove. They have a valid reason for wanting the document Beth given says that will help stymie some criminals, but do nothing to stop the most common kind of identity theft. Most often identity theft is as simple as dumpster-diving the credit industry sends out millions of unsolicited credit card. Locations every year many times people simply throw them in the trash without even ripping them in half a quick look in a dumpster behind a Moorhead apartment building illustrates. Just how easy it is to find these documents pre-approved discover five thousand dollars where I have a Criminal Mind I could take this pre-approved credit card application tossed in the trash without a second thought and be off on a spending spree. The unsuspecting victim would likely not know about the fraud for months until they discover. Their credit was ruined this application will go back into the trash perhaps for someone else to find and this is only one of the treasures that can come from dumpster diving businesses often discarded credit card receipts without shredding them Banks and Brokers, sometimes throw out documents with social security numbers and account information statistics on identity theft are hard to come by since law enforcement doesn't track the crime and the credit industry gives out little information privacy rights Clearing House director. Beth given says the credit industry doesn't want people to know. Common the crime is because it fears government regulation that might slow the flow of easy credit given zestimates identity thieves steal about four billion dollars a year. She says for the credit industry. It's a cost of doing business writing it off. What what's happening is they are then increasing the rates for credit and ultimately the cost of goods is because of the fees that Merchants have to pay to credit card companies. So we're the ones who are paying in the end. There is a growing debate about how to protect personal information some Advocate new laws to restrict access to public records, like birth certificates others argue such records should remain public new federal laws make it easier to punish identity thieves and about 15 States including North Dakota have recently passed laws making identity theft a crime but experts agree under current law consumers bear most of the responsibility for keeping personal information private. That means consumers must be careful about giving out Social Security and credit card numbers and need to destroy documents before they go in. The trash consumers should also insist businesses. They deal with do the same. There may be no way to stop a determined Identity Thief. But Common Sense May deter the opportunistic criminal looking for an easy score, Dan Gunderson, Minnesota Public Radio Moorhead many Consider information about their body in medical history to be their most private personal data. They expected to be locked away in their medical records until a doctor needs it to make a diagnosis or prescribe a cure. But those who want to protect privacy rights say plenty of other people want access to health data Clinton administration is moving to protect electronic medical records, but those who worry about privacy warned the computerization of Health Data could lead to large-scale invasions of privacy. Minnesota public radio's Brent wolf reports people taking a CPR class at the American Red Cross in Rochester are no strangers to medicine or technology some work at the Mayo Clinic or IBM, but the idea that all their medical records are in computer files still makes them nervous. (00:29:43) It's a little scary and thinking that your medical records are out there on the, you know accessible by hackers or by whoever who has access to that once it's on there. It may have been originally intended for you know doctors are for research. But again, you know, maybe the janitor that's coming in there. Did you notice anybody off the street that has access to that computer would also have access to your medical information and I don't agree with that (00:30:07) doctors and hospitals are computerizing complete patient records because they can access and manage the information more efficiently. It can be especially helpful in an emergency. If a doctor can pull up a patient's health history on the emergency room computer instead of waiting for a patient's file from the records department the Minnesota Health Data Institute estimates about 15% of patient records are currently computerized Nationwide and Technology experts expect a rapid increase in the coming years, but Twila brace with a watchdog group called The Citizens Council on Health. Care says the convenience comes at a (00:30:38) cost. There is a definite danger that the information can be shared. It can be transmitted and it can be linked all in ways that the patient isn't comfortable with and in the end the convenience won't be as important anymore as is the protection of (00:30:58) Reality most people concerned about the privacy of their medical records worry about insurance companies or their employer getting too much information life insurance companies decide who to underwrite and how much to charge them based on an assessment of their health that assessment is checked against information from a health database called the medical information Bureau ensures set up the MIB at the turn of the century to fight fraud member companies send in medical information gathered from their questionnaires to see what pre-existing conditions applicants have reported to other members George baddest chief medical director with Minnesota Life says the company needs to verify the health of its applicants. We have an obligation to our clients that already have insurance to price risk secreta correctly and accordingly and if we don't do a good job, we won't have money around for them. So we watch very carefully do we want to continue on contract where you can't get a hold of any medical information and they won't answer any questions puts us at a very hard chances to how do we proceed or We want to proceed there are also concerns that some companies May access health records to help make Personnel decisions. Something federal law clearly seeks to prohibit Joe Thompson staff vice president at 3M says that would be unethical as well as illegal. There isn't a lot to be gained by getting this information. And as I see it from an employer's perspective, all you can get is controversy in question about something that you really can't use if you have it. I mean, it's hard to Fathom how that data could help Thompson says the Americans with Disabilities Act prohibits an employer from using Health Data in hiring and firing decisions. Those who tout the benefits of electronic records say the computer data can be protected using technology. But right now Health institutions are responsible for deciding how much security to provide earlier this year technicians at the University of Michigan Health System accidentally put all patient scheduling data onto unprotected web servers, which were Access by online reporters tipped off to the web address and some doctors like dr. Tim Shakur who heads the University of Minnesota's HIV Clinic worry that too many people within a hospital can access a patient's records any computer that I can sign on to I can access their laboratory information their x-ray information their pathology and that's not wrong that's good. I mean in order for me to provide effective care I have to be able to do that. But the downside is is that we don't have a good way yet to make sure that the people who shouldn't see that information don't Checker says he's heard medical staff gossiping about HIV diagnosis and hospital elevators. He tries to head that off by Sometimes using aliases on the chart on a patient's Hospital door, but he can't change their name on the computer records. The Clinton Administration recently issued regulations, restricting the use and release of electronic medical records that may spur Healthcare Providers to install new protections for their data one of those helping me. Soda Health Care Providers tighten security is John Frazier director of Information Services with the Minnesota Health Data Institute. He says the Institute is developing military grade encryption software and electronic signatures and keys to protect Health Data. What we want to do is provide so much security that it will be easier to break into the office and get the paper record then to attack the electronic side and I think if we can raise the security level to that height, then we truly will have increased security over the paper record and Frazier says people have a misconception of how secure their paper records are. It's simply a folder that gets put down on a counter or then put in the door of your waiting room and it's all paper-based there really is no security on that except where there's some physical security might get locked up at night but it gets transmitted through fax machines. It gets transmitted through mail through couriers. The beauty of the new technology is also its weakness. It's highly efficient one computer disk can hold information on thousands of patients and in the wrong hands cause Damage those who worry about the misuse of medical documents. Hope the new federal regulations from the Department of Health and Human Services will deter most people from violating the privacy of computerized Health Data, but they still worried it will be too difficult to detect and prosecute those. Who do I'm Brent wolf Minnesota Public Radio. One thing we learned during our coverage this week about privacy is that there's a lot of concern about online privacy all the ways that you can and are being tracked. When you log on to the internet you are not Anonymous, for example, when you go shopping online, but as John Rabe ereports, you don't have to go online to come under scrutiny. You're at the cashier you sat in traffic for 20 minutes on the weight of the storm. You searched half an hour for the thing you now intend to buy and you've been waiting for 10 minutes in line your feet hurt. You want to go home then the cashier ask for your phone number your ZIP code your driver's license number or some other personal information. What do you do? To give it or face the Wrath of the cashier and the people behind you in line by making a fuss. Do you have the guts to be like these Shoppers any time you begin passing out information about yourself? Little bits of information can be added together to get a lot more information. I don't feel that it's anybody's business. But (00:36:18) mine. I do not give people my phone number. I do not give them by ZIP code and I tell the managers. I like to talk to the managers. I tell them that I'm not going to shop there if they do things like that, but there's a reason (00:36:32) stores want to know as much about you as they can the more they know the better they can pitch products and services at you and they can make money by selling your information to other companies on the upside. Maybe you like getting solicitations and coupons and the stores you like may use an accurate profile of you to help them compete against stores. You don't like Paco Underhill runs and virus L A consulting company that examines everything about stores and tells the owners how they can get people to buy more everything includes the questions a cashier asked customers and how intrusive they should be the ability to know who your customers are maybe critical to a stores. For survival and if they end up rustling some feathers that may be a small price to pay Underhill says he can't say exactly when that small price becomes too big and the number of Shoppers who feel invaded makes it unprofitable to apply a little info pressure in the checkout line. He tells his clients they have the right to ask but the customer ultimately has the right to say no, I think Shoppers should have the right to Simply hand over their their credit card and their signature and that's it. Kevin Hendrix publisher of the Privacy times would turn the tables on the retailers and establish a sort of Miranda warning for Shoppers many examples where people are clearly Under Pressure to sign away their privacy rights and you know, when people do stand-up in those instances, you know, it's usually an uncomfortable thing to do and that's why we think that needs to be Consumer Protection Law. So everyone knows that is your right and not something that you have to big burden on you or Those around you for you have to do it and you won't get much backup from Minnesota law according to Deputy State Attorney General Lori Swanson. There's not a lot of legal limitations on what a store can ask you for when you go to purchase something you can in turn refuse to provide that information, but then in turn the store can refuse to do business with you Swanson says the Attorney General is considering strengthening state law in this area to protect the consumers privacy in the meantime consider giving the inquisitive cashier something to fill the blank like a 5/5 51212 phone number at the very least until the Law changes. You can take comfort in the fact that they're not collecting your info for prurient reasons to quote the Godfather. It's not personal. It's strictly business. John Raby, Minnesota Public Radio Well, finally before we wrap up this shower, we should note that not everybody is apparently all that protective of their privacy. In fact, some people are using new computer technology to open up their lives to the world internet camera technology called webcams allows most anybody with a computer to broadcast real-time images on their website as Minnesota public radio's Marissa Helms reports. Some people are taking full advantage of that new technology. (00:39:32) It's estimated. There are 67 million internet users in the United States millions of people have set up personal home pages that describe the sometimes fascinating but mostly banal details of their daily lives and about 5,000 of those sites worldwide have web cams attached sparking a whole new definition of privacy and internet (00:39:55) communication. Click on Jenny (00:39:58) Cam.com and meet Jenny ring late. She's the Mother of invention for the webcam phenomenon. (00:40:06) The idea behind the site is that I am just a regular person that I'm living a pretty normal life. I'm not you know, I don't sing or dance or do tricks or anything. I'm just Jenny (00:40:16) three and a half years ago. Ringley bought a little internet camera and trained the lens on herself broadcasting her daily life from her dorm room in Pennsylvania. She calls it Jenny cam. (00:40:27) I guess I knew pretty early on it was going to end up being popular just based on the way people were telling people about it. But I never imagined that it would be anything of this kind of scale. In fact, if I had known in the beginning that it would be this popular. I probably would have just screamed and thrown it (00:40:44) away. What started as a way to entertain her friends has turned into a thriving internet business Ringley started charging a subscription fee of $15 a year and Jenny cam.com is now Ringley single source of income though. She refuses to say how many people Subscribe to Jenny cam Ringley estimates. She gets between four and five and a half million hits a day. Of course only a small percentage of those visitors are subscribers. Wrigley says her sight is so popular because it's real (00:41:19) it son dramatized. I'm not acting I'm not making stuff up. I'm not hiding stuff. It's it's really like people watching taken to the nth degree, you know, if you watch people walking by in a park, you're not likely to see them doing much other than you know, walking or reading or eating something. (00:41:35) If you go to Jenni cam.com, you'll see Jenny eat or walk or read or watch TV or sleep or take a shower. That's right a shower. Ringley even works full time on Jenny cam.com surrounded by 10 cameras. The only place she doesn't have a camera is the guest bathroom. So on any given day, you'll see Jenny doing stuff that looks a lot like what everybody else does the big difference is she lives her life? Life under millions of watchful eyes, but it's that very thing realism and the illusion of spying on someone's private life with permission. That seems to be the big draw for ring Lee's audience of voyeurs. Ringley site has inspired thousands mostly women to jump on the web with their own daily life webcams one local cam girl is Twin Cities artist and singer on a Vogue for two years. Now Vogue has been making a living off her 24 by 7 presence on anakim.com. It seems like I've been doing it all my life. It's almost like like part of me so much. It's like ingrained in my every pore that I don't even know how I ever existed without it Boog regularly broadcasts art performances from her small apartment. Most of the time though visitors to anakim.com are likely to see her sitting reading watching TV, you know life Vogue also has subscribers for $10 a month visitors to anakim.com watch on ago about her day. They can post artwork about Anna or talk about Onna in a chat room Boog also refuses to say how many subscribers she has. She says she's often criticized for making money off her sight but subscriber dick Wales. Thanks. It's just fine for Anna to make money. I (00:43:26) find it interesting to watch of an attractive young woman going about her (00:43:31) business Moby Dick. That's Wales online name subscribes to both Jenny Cam and Anakin. He says since Vogue and Ringley invite millions of people to come and watch there's no reason he shouldn't and whale says the attraction is more than just titillation. It's real and it's much more entertaining than watching TV. It's about being able to share in an unedited life. (00:43:58) I watch a lemon peel for instance and sometimes she at the end of the show. He's gone through this whole thing for an hour and she ends up and she's in her office and something hasn't turned out too. Well, and you know, I get a little choked up about it, but then I have to step back and think well there really is no Ally McBeal and she's fiction and she might get cancelled and there she's gone, you know, but on and Jenny are their real people and this that really is a whole different thing. (00:44:30) So television is fiction and webcams are real. Well kind of the Paradox in all this fish. Well privacy is that Vogue says and a cam.com isn't really about her at all. And I know feel like it's my life. You know what I mean? I don't feel like other people for some reason that when you take a photo it's taking away from my life. It's just a photo of my life. You know what I mean? It's not my life. I'm in control of my camera's it's not a DVD. It's not The Truman Show. It's not Big Brother is like me taking control of my cameras and pointing him at what I want to point at both of Vogue and Ringley say they're selling authenticity with unedited abandoned yet. They admit that realism is constructed on some Mainly by what they leave out as with most daily life cams vogue's and Wrigley's activities are silent. You can't hear a single word or sound they say this helps them maintain a sense of privacy still they say they have personal even intimate relationships with their (00:45:38) audience that's of the irony of (00:45:41) cyberspace Doug block is a documentary filmmaker whose film homepage a story about people who post their Diaries online just premiered at Sundance Film Festival this year block thinks bearing personal information online is all about the search for connection. He says Vogue and Ringley are not only capitalizing on a kind of natural voyeuristic tendency. They're also creating a new form of human relationship. (00:46:08) I think we're going to turn into a nation of Jenny cams with all the ability to have inexpensive cameras on our computers and the ability to stream the video in a few years, but That's not going to change what we're looking for on line. I don't think it changes what people like Jenni and Anna are looking for online it all comes back to the need for attention approval (00:46:32) love and sex webcam technology has become more sophisticated. Thanks to the porn industry. The majority of online web cams are pornography sites, Jenny Ringley and on a Vogue have both been accused of enticing visitors to their sites with nudity and while it's true that nude images of Jenny and Anna exist on both their sites, they justify the nudity as just another part of real life Vogue calls her sight a kind of Rorschach test visitors project their own desires onto what they see you'll see my dogs more than you'll see me nude, you know, but I walk around the house need if it's hot out or if I took a shower or something like that, but they will assume that I'm making money because it's my body. Well, that's there what they think You know what? I mean? Obviously they're looking at my Camp to look at my body because that's what they think my can is about it's not about that. What it is about is Anna and her life all her life. Well almost ironically it is the absence of sound that has been the one thing protecting her privacy while she's online 24 hours a day webcams May well be the centerpiece of a nascent internet art form with similarities to early filmmaking but just as silent film was superseded by sound film. It seems likely both Ringley and vogue's webcams won't be silent for long. Both women are working on projects to add audio to their web broadcasts. And so the line between privacy and exhibitionism will continually be drawn and redrawn as technology brings more and more realism to the World Wide Web. I'm erisa Helms, Minnesota Public Radio (00:48:16) some of the reports that we've been featuring this week as part of our Balanced Society series a reminder you can find all this information and much much more on our website npr.org also our coverage continues in just a couple of minutes here. We're going off to the Minnesota meeting to hear from amitai etzioni author of the limits of privacy. He argues that privacy in the internet Age Loss of privacy might not be such a bad thing. Also Mark Dean heart athletic director at the U of M has resigned we'll have that story and much much more during a special broadcast on the U of M situation. One, two, three o'clock this afternoon, including live coverage of president Mark yudof, press conference.