(00:00:24) Good morning, and welcome to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us. Well tomorrow is election day around Minnesota. There are no Statewide races on the ballot, but there are lots of interesting races in Minnesota communities and today on. Midday. We're going to focus on two of the more interesting issues being decided tomorrow voters in st. Paul tomorrow will decide whether to essentially ban half the Billboards in the city. They will also decide tomorrow whether the latest plan to build the Minnesota Twins new ballpark lives or dies now over the noon hour. We're going to be focusing on that Stadium boat vote, but during this first hour of. Midday, we're going to take a closer look at the ballot question on Billboard's in st. Paul. St. Paul voters will be asked to approve a ballot initiative that would ban all new Billboards and force Outdoor Advertising companies to remove within five years about half of the existing Billboards in the city among other things supporters. Say that the neighborhood Billboards, which would be affected are a public nuisance and amount of visual. Blight in the city opponents of the ballot question say among other things that the proposed ban is illegal and unconstitutional joining us today to discuss the pros and cons of the billboard ballot question and to take your questions are two folks right at the center of the debate John. Minnillo of St. Paul business owner and the chairman of Scenic st. Paul the organization which is promoting the ballot initiative also with us is Leanne Mahler the president of minneapolis-based Eller media Eller owns about 80% of the Billboards that are located in the city of st. Paul. And again, we invite you to join our conversation. If you've got a question about the billboard initiative on tomorrow's election ballot in st. Paul give us a call here. Our Twin City area number is 6512276 thousand 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll-free and that number would be one eight hundred two, four two 28286512276 thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight. Thanks. Much for coming in today. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you Gary. Let me start here. I'd like to give each of you a minute or so to to kind of outline your position on this ballot question. John Manila. Why don't you go first? Why do you think voters should approve this this ballot initiative Billboards clutter and deface the landscape they compete with legitimate on-site Business Signs. They give a perception of a declining Community. I'm a commercial real estate broker and in my business Billboards are classified as incurable defects. That's something that a property owner has devaluing his or her property. It's something they can't change as opposed to curable which would be like putting a new roof on your house or painting it incurable is like living on a busy street or narrow bar and unruly bar Billboards do this two properties the It's the only kind of advertising you can turn off virtually all of revenues from Billboards, which are enormous leave the city. There are no annual permit fees. There are no property taxes paid on Billboard's LR media is from Phoenix Arizona, the money leaves the state entirely most of the advertisement on Billboard's is from National or out of the city type of advertising. All right. Thank you, sir. Lee Anne Miller. Why is it that you folks think this initiative should be defeated. (00:03:56) Well, there are a number of reasons Gary but I will start with one fact, which is we have complied with the side ordinances of the city of st. Paul which allow Billboards and have allowed Billboards for close to 100 years sign ordinances a Rewritten over periods of time and we continue to comply with those every board. We have has a legal permit. It was allowed based upon the rules of the city. Now today a group of people want to say we don't like them anymore their visual news. Even though you're a legal business that our city wrote A Sign ordinance allowing them. We don't like them anymore. We want to take them away seems like a taking of property to me. I would also like to comment that while there have been various statements made regarding what percent of our advertising is local versus National. We actually have the contracts we can add up and say we can prove this it's not just our estimation of what we drive around and look at almost 75 percent of the advertising on the Billboards. And st. Paul are for locally owned or operated businesses. I've heard the comment made. Well if it advertises Coke that just because you sell it in a grocery store doesn't mean it benefits you but there's a Coca-Cola bottler who believes it benefits him. (00:05:03) Okay. Well, we're going to get into the specifics of this and kind of work our way through it. I think a lot of people need to be brought up to date. What would the vote tomorrow and kind of get zeroed in I'm curious. Are you folks making any special get-out-the-vote efforts either one of you or kind of letting things run their natural course here. (00:05:23) We have some ads running in the newspaper and on radio that are stating our position that we believe it's a waste of taxpayer money of what will be spent and what has been spent and trying to outline that position (00:05:35) John we've been outspent about 50 the one we we are making the best effort possible. I think we've had a fair news coverage. That's probably our best shot at this point, but no we are not doing any special get out the vote. We just don't have the people or the money to do that some facts and figures here. How many Billboards are there in the city of st. Paul? And how many would be affected if this initiative is approved. There are approximately 600 Billboards in the city of st. Paul. It would affect according to LR. We don't disagree with the number about 275 boards. The those boards only are in the neighborhoods. They are not on Street on state or federal. Ways we've been called extremist for what we want to do. But if we were able to get rid of said those two hundred seventy five boards st. Paul would still have the most Billboards per capita of any City in the state Leanne sounds like a reasonable proposition. (00:06:42) Will Gary if you think it's reasonable that somebody only wants to take away half of your business with no compensation. I would say that if you owned a dry cleaners a grocery store any other business you should be a little afraid of when somebody decides that you are a nuisance again, we comply with the regulations of st. Paul. It is Extreme for someone to say they want to take away your business because they don't like it even though you are in legal compliance. That's about as Extreme as it gets and I think this is still America and most Americans feel G. If you own the business if you complied with all the laws, some group should not be able to come away today and just decide to take away only half of (00:07:19) it. Mmm. Is there any compensation? Look into this. First of all Gary, let me say that every time a community council in the city has gone to the city with a special sign ordinance request the billboard industry as opposed it those requests were only asking for no more signs. We have been trying to work with that system as far as ehlers losing their half their business and st. Paul Eller on their website will brag about having 50,000 Billboards. It's a billion-dollar company are 275 aren't going to make much of a dent. They have Billboards from the equator to above the Arctic Circle according to them the I don't as far as compensation for their Billboards, the the appraisal Institute has taken a clear position that of billboards value is only the cost of moving it. And the reason for that is that buildings were never and property real estate was never designed to hold Billboards. They are put on after the building is built with Lisa. For specific periods of time when those leases run out clearly. They don't know that they're going to be able to leave it there and take them off the Billboards that we're talking about almost all are beyond the initial Lisa's you can make your money back on a billboard in about two years. Some of those have been there almost 50 60 70 years. It's been a century. We've had Billboards and people have been opposing those in st. Paul I should add at any rate taking Billboards away from them. We're not going to take it away. They can dismantle it. They can move it. They can put it wherever they like where they can are allowed and they can make money but in st. Paul they're selling something. They don't own their selling our Scenic rights (00:09:03) Leanne. Well first I would say we have a sign again because the city of st. Paul or any Community writes a sign ordinance that says you may have signs. You may not have signs. You may have them this height this size this spacing a sign company does not write that ordinance a city writes the ordinance and over a span if you To the 50-year span, they will come back and review those ordinances as they do in many forms of development and say our cities change. We're going to rewrite this particular ordinance impacting this type of land use. So the ordinance has been Rewritten over the years. But again, it's been totally within compliance of what the city has said was allowed. The city has been in a review process of the sign ordinance, but they've shut it down until this is over because while it was at the Planning Commission for review, they just stopped what they were doing saying we have to wait until this is over so we can resume I would like to make a comment that the reference was made that in commercial real estate believe it's commercial real estate that a billboard is looked at is what's called an incurable defect and I'm curious because in 1981. Mr. Minnillo purchased a own door. I don't know if you purchased it then a commercial property at Snelling and st. Clair and at that time you had Negley Outdoor Advertising erect a double-faced bill. Word on your commercial property you signed a 10-year lease at that time. I believe you sold the build the building. I think sometime about three years later the following property owner, which I believe is Sundberg Pharmacy, then when that lease expired renewed the lease and those Billboards are there today, but I'm curious as to I guess I don't want to ask the question that way I want to make the statement that as a commercial property owner and other commercial property owners where they see a value and adding assigned to their building and that sign is in compliance with the rules and regulations of st. Paul. I don't think that a small group should be able to deny them the right to have the sign earn the income and that money that leaves the state well over a million dollars a year is paid to st. Paul Property Owners. They live here. They owned businesses here and they receive that rental (00:11:11) income. I like to answer that. I did not own that building. In fact, I oppose that made every effort to take that down. It was owned by a group of people and I'm Edge that Forum so I'm well aware of your contracts your leases and what you request and there's a good example of a 10-year lease that's a finite period of time by the way, as far as the existing laws and permits the only permits that are overtaking on these Billboards are the initial construction permits. There's no annual permit fee. There's no way of tracking them the city didn't even know how many Billboards there were in the city until we did something about it. Now as far as the Planning Commission to Planning Commission took a position, not officially because there are advisory but to amortize out a hundred forty-five Billboards in the city at that point the billboard industry went to the state got legislation passed that said you quit cannot amortize real property. We would be happy to work with LR if they are saying they will amortize a hundred forty five of those in the city. I don't think they are working in good faith with what they are saying, okay. Let me let me stop here just a moment. And we need a definition of terms amortize that is essentially phase-out amortize means that you phase out over a period of time as payment so they can recover their investment in their structure. They don't own the air rights. They don't own the scenic rights, they own the structure and they can get that back. Of course, they can they will take the structure down either Salvage it or move it somewhere else. Is there are there any there are large parts of the city where no Billboards are allowed right now. Is that (00:12:53) correct? Gary Billboards are one of the most heavily regulated in strategic Industries one can be in we must comply in order to build a billboard with a city law a state law and a federal law all of which are not identical. So in order to find a place where you build a board you have to be able to comply with all of those regulations. So it's very challenging to build a (00:13:16) board but there are places in the city where there aren't any no Billboards are (00:13:20) allowed. Oh, absolutely. Only first of all in residential zones Billboards are not allowed there. Usually they're allowed in commercial and Industrial zones. So we must comply with that zoning regulation and we go to those types of commercial and industrial areas where we want to build that's where they're allowed that's for them where we would want to build because that's where traffic exists and that type of area. So (00:13:40) just to clarify again though the ones that we're talking about under this ban our exams are already there. They've been in the neighborhoods is that first of all where there's a couple things one is we're not we don't want any more Billboards and there were permits pending. But as far as what you're talking about in all 17 Community councils are Billboards. So every neighborhood in this city has Billboards as opposed to the rest of the Twin Cities. If you go into every Community around the Twin Cities, they do not allow Billboards in the neighborhoods. In fact in Leanne's own neighborhood. They don't allow Billboards st. Paul is different st. Paul's become The Dumping Ground for Billboards. We want to be Those suburbs we want to be able to compete with other people (00:14:26) Gary. I (00:14:27) might okay very briefly and I want to get to some callers. (00:14:29) Okay, I might just say that any Community suburban community and I did not select my community based upon whether they had Billboards are they didn't and I might add they do have Billboards may pass an ordinance. They may review their sign ordinance. They may say, you know what this is not appropriate for us for the future and they may absolutely change the ordinance women at agree with that but we have no point to argue other than to hopefully ask them to take a look at Commercial and industrial areas as appropriate areas for signage. The difference here is not someone saying what can we do as we go forward the difference is someone saying we want to take away what you were allowed to build and we want to take it away without compensation and I will answer your question on amortization amortization is a process where you say to someone regardless of what business you own or your own home. We want you to leave and cease this use This property and rather than paying you to go away as a government. Does this example when they put a road through and they have to take houses they say, you know what you have to go for the greater public good, but we're going to condemn you and we're going to compensate you amortization is a way of saying you've had your use you recoup your investment. We're going to give you time instead of money and putting this in very basic terms if you want to home and you have 30 years in that home and you've paid off the mortgage you got your use out of it. So if someone says go away, but that home may be worthy of standing for another 20, 30 50 70 years and someone saying to you will give you five more years to live there instead of giving you money to leave probably would not be something you would consider to be fair compensation. And this is a big issue being missed here that this is just plain taking of legal operating property business and I will tell you in April of 1999 the state legislature overwhelmingly passed this legislation Democrats Republicans house. They did not pass it for the billboard industry. They passed it because it was very clear to them with a hundred and fifty business associations that it wasn't right to take property without (00:16:31) compensation Gary. Let me just quickly say that as firstly an is talking about in ordinance. They would be happy to work with the City of New Orleans. That's exactly what we are doing as far as taking somebody's house. If you run a crack house, you're a public nuisance and you can take it and it's happened before as far as we're concerned Billboards of the cocaine of the advertising industry. It's something that is forced upon you is parasitic it takes life out of the community and we feel it is a public nuisance. And as far as the law that was passed in the state. It says right in the law if you can amortize public nuisances, we're not doing anything illegal. We're happy to go to court on this whole issue. We've been to court three times in the last three months we've won each time. It has happened in hundreds of cities hundreds of hundreds of counties and for entire states it is Hold up all the way to the Supreme Court. So we're confident. We're on Solid Ground And if the billboard industry was confident, they wouldn't be spending a half a million dollars to beat this ordinance. They would be saying, okay. We'll see you in court. Let's get some listener questions on the air here. John vanilla is with us. He's the chairman of Scenic st. Paul Lee and Mueller is the president of LR media media in Minneapolis, and they have come by today to talk about the pros and cons of the ballot question. One of the ballot questions at st. Paul voters will be deciding tomorrow in this instance. The question before voters is whether to essentially ban half the Billboards in the city of st. Paul legal had Place. Hi, I live in st. Paul and I can't walk to the library to McDonald's. I can't go to Grandma's. I can't go anywhere without in my neighborhood without going past a billboard and I have two small boys and they see them. They see the advertising of Alcohol Tobacco the Howard. Turns and I don't believe that she has them in her neighborhood. I believe she has them on some outer bigger roads, but none of the suburbs I used to drive for a job. None of the suburbs allow them. So we made a mistake v a hundred years ago and let Billboards come into the neighborhoods and I think we have every right to say, please no more. You've got to go. It's I agree with John completely. It's just really really degrading to the neighborhood Lee Anne. Would you like to respond? (00:18:54) Well, I again go back to the Billboards have been permitted by the city as to what they said was appropriate and inappropriate. I probably was not doing this job at the point many of those were built moving forward then which is kind of moving forward if within the city they choose to rewrite the sign ordinance, which again was a process in place and they choose to not allow the future building a Billboards. They have the right to do that. I might say That what we are promoting that we do in the rewriting of the sign ordinance. And what we are hoping will do when we're able to resume this process is that we put in place something similar to what Minneapolis did about approximately five years ago where they took a look at the community and they said, you know cities do change over time and areas do change and they get redeveloped or becomes more neighborhood than commercial and they put in place an ordinance where they said if you will remove outdoor advertising companies signs in the following areas. They Define them very specifically geographically and you will remove signage in these areas. We're going to create opportunities zones in Industrial and Commercial areas and we will ask that for every one foot you want to build you will remove two feet to square feet of signage. So we're going to ask you to take down at the rate of two to one We're not gonna let you replace evenly, but if you'll take them down in these areas will allow you to replace if you can find a spot to build the complies with all the other regulations. We will allow you to have the opportunity to build. In Opportunity zones that we feel are more appropriate based upon today. And I think that's really important because we would like to move forward with rewriting that sign ordinance in St. Paul establish a ratio of will take down so many square feet and will remove them from areas that perhaps would become more pure neighborhood and we will look for areas to build them in commercial areas. But this type of Extreme Action has just brought the whole process to a halt and we hope that after the election will resume that (00:20:49) John Manila would that is at a workable solution. We have had that in this city since 1988 and it hasn't worked. In fact, it's a more attractive trade-off than a Minneapolis Minneapolis 2321. We have a two to one it had we haven't moved virtually any Billboards and the reason is is that we're totally saturated. We have no we're on our state and federal highways to put additional Billboards. They love to see that because they're much more profitable to them to be on federal highways and state highways are As we already have too many and we don't want to add more on the highways when that's our Gateway when people come and see the city. That's what their impression is. We feel that's a step in the wrong direction Adam your question, please thanks for having me on I guess I have one question at one comment. The question is I wonder if either of your guests could explain exactly what the restrictions are with removing them along Federal highways and federally funded stuff. I guess there's some kind of restriction for that. The second part of it my comment is I do live in st. Paul. I have to Billboards right in my backyard and although the backs of the Billboards are not terribly attractive. They block my view and the noise from a freeway entrance ramp, so I'd certainly hate to see them go. You know, I'm not a big fan of billboards in general but there is a positive to them they act in many cases as noise and visual screens for what is unattractive along a highway for people that live near them. So any Answers that your guests can give me to the first part and their comments on the second night. Certainly appreciate. Okay, thank you. Yes. Thank Gary and answer the first part of that is there's a Highway beautification Act if you remember Lady Bird Johnson enacted that in the back in the 60s what that basically did was buy out the Billboards all paid a lot of money to billboard companies to get rid of them over the years when administration's change laws change they came back and if you want to look at 35 e going to North to Duluth, you'll see you see all kinds of women trees cut down so you can see them. It's a problem for us. We're not talking about that. Now as far as the billboard in is blocking noise. First of all, that's probably a freeway billboard if it's facing a freeway exit and it wouldn't be included here, but I'm not saying every billboard everybody in the city doesn't like it what I'm saying is this is a democracy. We need to vote on it. We need to have the majority in st. Paul. The majority vote will decide on how the city looks if most of us feel it looks fine. And they have the facts then we'll live with it. We question whether they have the facts we have been faced with a barrage of advertising in the last two weeks that puts on misinformation such as we're Banning Billboards when we're not doing that or that we're hurting nonprofits. We're not doing that either. In fact, all of the pictures in the ads in the paper in the four-color ads in the papers were of billboards on highways. We're not going to affect those Billboards at all. We're talking about they send out cards to every registered voter in the city. Some houses got four and five of these cards listing businesses. They said would be hurt including this radio station. They objected those businesses objected to being put into a political Mess by their the Companies so really this is misinformation. We don't have a whole lot of ability to counteract it because we don't have the money to do that. We hope that people will see through this and we think they will Lee Ann Miller. Is there any chance that if this initiative passes that all the Billboards in st. Paul would be (00:24:42) banned we don't believe there's any chance I would love to have 60 seconds to respond to the wide range of comments. Mr. Minnillo just made. (00:24:51) Yeah, I'll give you 60 seconds. Then we have to then we have to break (00:24:54) I would just say that this morning. He said on another talk show that if they lost the election tomorrow, they would in fact be trying to put another ballot initiative on so, I hope that today's comment of well if that's what the Citizens Field and so be it because we would like to resume the process with the city government of st. Paul but also say that this organization doesn't have to spend money. They're making the city spend the money in the legal defense. They don't have to spend the money. The city is the one who must defend the case all of our facts. Are based upon contractual information we can document it we can verify it these wide-ranging statements about public nuisance visual eyesore. It's a matter of opinion and you're entitled to your opinion, but they aren't facts. They aren't substantiated by Major surveys and I will say that I certainly resent being compared to a crack house and that Billboards are compared to that and I will tell you one big difference regardless of your opinion. They don't give permits by city government to operate crack houses. They do give permits to build and maintain Billboards and that's a significant (00:25:53) difference. Okay. Well, let's take a break here lots more to talk about during the second half of this half hour, but we're going to take a break for some news headlines. John Manila is with us chairman of the scenic st. Paul the organization that promoting the ballot initiative on Billboard's in st. Paul voters will go to the polls tomorrow Leanne Mueller is with us. She is with minneapolis-based Stellar media which owns about 80% of the Billboards in st. Paul and if the ballot question is Tomorrow about half the Billboards in st. Paul would be affected would have to be removed ultimately. If you'd like to join our conversation. If you've got a question, give us a call six five one two, two seven six thousand outside the Twin Cities one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight will get to some more callers in a couple of (00:26:39) minutes. Today's programming is made possible in part by The Advocates of Minnesota Public Radio contributors include the Dayton Hudson foundation on behalf of Dayton's Mervyn's and Target stores for Arts and Cultural programming and General Mills Foundation. (00:26:53) This is Kyle with Minnesota public radio's member listeners Services Department. Are you wondering how you can access mpr's website. Do you want to know more about that funny song You Heard On The Morning Show. Are you interested in becoming a member of MPR? We can help call 800 two to eight seven one, two, three and have your questions answered or just send us an e-mail at mail at npr.org you ask me. Answer news headlines now, here's Greta Cunningham (00:27:24) Greta. Good morning, Gary a massive search is underway today off the coast of Nantucket Massachusetts for survivors of the Egyptian Air Egypt air crash, but the Coast Guard says it's considering shifting its efforts from search and rescue to search and Recovery investigators still don't know what caused the plane to plunge suddenly into the Atlantic Ocean yesterday, but they're hopeful they may have some Clues soon. NTSB chairman. Jim Hall says, he's confident the planes black boxes will be found a victory for a New York City Art Museum in the battle with the city over a controversial exhibit. A federal judge is ordering the city to restore millions of dollars in funding to the Brooklyn Museum of Art the judge in her preliminary injunction found the museum had shown it would suffer irreparable harm and that it would be likely to succeed on his claim that its first amendment rights had been violated the museum suit after mayor Rudolph Giuliani decided to freeze a seven million dollar City subsidy to the museum mayor said the exhibit was sacrilegious and Unworthy of taxpayer support lawyers defending the second person charged in the brutal beating of Matthew Shepard outside Laramie, Wyoming have been dealt a setback. The judge has thrown out the so-called gay Panic defense. He said it was not recognized by state law lawyers for are McKinney were trying to show he panicked after Shepherd K mobbed him in a bar a year ago last month, but Kenny allegedly had traumatic homosexual experiences at as a child the second defendant in the case Russell Henderson pleaded guilty in April and got two life terms in Regional news. The winner of the sixty one point 1 million dollar Powerball jackpot will be announced within the hour. The Minnesota state lottery office has scheduled a news conference for 11:45 today to announce the winner. It's the second Powerball jackpot one in Minnesota in recent months the forecast for Minnesota today has a high wind warning for Northwestern Minnesota today and a high wind watch for parts of Central and Southern Minnesota today. It will be cooler Statewide with windy conditions. Mostly cloudy in the north with a Of rain or snow showers partly cloudy skies in the south high temperatures from 40 in the north to 58 in the southwest at this hour Rochester reports sunshine and 52. It's cloudy and St. Cloud and 46 cloudy and International Falls and 43 and in the Twin Cities. Mostly sunny skies a temperature of 50 degrees Gary. That's a check on the latest (00:29:41) news. All right. Thanks Greta. It's about 25 minutes now before noon mid day coming to you here on Minnesota Public Radio over the noon hour. We're going to take a look at the big Stadium vote that comes up tomorrow. St. Paul voters will be deciding whether to raise the city sales tax to help pay for a proposed ballpark for the Minnesota Twins in downtown st. Paul. That's at noon. But right now we're taking a look at a second ballot question. That's almost as interesting that will be on the ballot tomorrow one that would effectively eliminate about half the Billboards in the city of st. Paul Lee. Ann Miller is with us. She's with Eller media which owns about 80% of the Billboards and st. Paul John. Minnillo as here. He's a Saint Paul business owner and the chairman of Scenic st. Paul and they've come by to talk about the pros and cons of that billboard initiative before we get back to callers a question for both of you and John you brought this up a little earlier this whole issue of the nonprofits and how that would affect nonprofits. Is that a is that a big issue? I do a lot of nonprofits depend on Billboard's to get their message out, you know, the issue really is a negligible one if you're look at the numbers. We took a survey we went out and count in August when this campaign was on counted every single billboard and we took pictures of them so we can show you exactly what was on them 3% of ehlers boards were for nonprofits. Some may be in paid. I don't know if they were contributed but they were three percent were there was a letter that went out the other day from a Nation about suicide awareness saying that people's lives were saved and we should not take them down or else that would be affected. Well, we're not affecting those Billboards on those highways. In fact, if we want to look at saving lives. We should look at Joe Camel or alcohol and you know those that's the number one and three killer in the state of Minnesota are those things. So to talk about suicide awareness is a little bit lopsided. I thought I'd have a question for Leann if we're going to negatively affect Charities and nonprofits does that mean you're not going to continue to offer those services on the remaining 300 boards that you would have if we passed that would only be 80 near boards. Well, first of all Leanne is this a big issue for nonprofits as things currently (00:32:14) exists. Well, it is an issue and I will say that in doing a survey we did a survey but we did it the way most surveys are done. You hire an independent company. Go out and do the survey to find out public opinion on things because otherwise, it's just your own opinion that you're you're checking. So while I don't question that mr. Miller's group probably in August went out and surveyed the Billboards. They chose one day and time and when you run a business over a 12-month period of time, you don't assess what's on the boards just that day. But you look at what are the amounts done over the period of a year and over the period of a year. We are donating space that is equal to over a million dollars or let's say at a million dollars a year to Public Service organizations. We are certainly not the only media that make donations to public service and Charities but that is a significant amount of money and it's easily documented and those organizations certainly know that we do donate the billboard space our time and helping them create designs and handle (00:33:07) production. Would you be prepared to continue that commitment if this initiative (00:33:12) passes? Well, well we have been committed to being a part of the communities in which we work and we serve for the entire time. We've been in business. If someone takes away successfully takes away half of your business. You certainly have less available to give his donations because you must Focus all of that on the reason you're really in business which is to try and make a profit. So it would without a question wouldn't be our intent but it would absolutely have the effect of taking away a voice for those people because we simply wouldn't have the space left make those donations and these groups do value it. We have not 10 or 20. We have thousands of letters in our files from every organization every single time. We have done something for them Thanking us crediting us and in terms of saving lives. I'm certainly not going to say that if you remove Billboards people will die because of it, but I would like to say that I received a call last week from a lady whose name was Jerry Blair who said, you know, I'm really tired of hearing about all of this because in fact it billboard did find the killer of the hit-and-run driver who hit my 15 year old granddaughter and we couldn't find anyone to give us information and because of the billboard you Put up they were able to get a lead and get a tip on who actually hit and run who was the hit and run driver and they were able to arrest and prosecute. We have a letter in our possession from the chief of police in the City of Minneapolis that it was because and these almost directly quoting because of the billboard we put up for the killer of Byron Phillips that finally a year later later and this was all part of the news coverage a year later a woman went to the police department said I can't look at that billboard one more day when I leave my house. I know who did it gave them the tip it led to an arrest and conviction and both of these people are now in jail. Now is that the normal reason that Billboards are up? No, I would not say that but indeed in these two cases, they were extremely helpful. And I think the real point is we know we're part of these communities and we worked with these groups to say well, let's see if we can help you (00:35:13) here Gary. I don't disagree the effectiveness of billboards, but think of the effect on our young people when they advertise Gambling Howard Stern and sex world. I think a statistician if they looked at the way you did your survey would have a problem with it. And with ours snapshot in time is far more relative than something over a full year, which you then twist the figures to make it look like 75% is actually being used. Okay. Well, let's go back to the phones here John's on the line John. Hello. Hi. Yes. I'll make a brief comment. This is aside from the established st. Paul ordinances and laws improvements regarding Billboards, but my feeling personal feeling is the Billboards are not only a nuisance to our Urban landscape, but just plain unnecessary because we have so much signage and so many other avenues that advertising or promotion can be pursued. I would rather see our landscape cleaned up and I think that, you know, just like taking a vacation. It opens up the mind' your little bit more receptive when you see something out. I think we're just bombarded with this stuff. And I think it would be really nice for the city of st. Paul De to eliminate the Billboards. That's all I have to say. Thank you guys. All right. Thank you John. Let's move on to Murray who is calling from St. Paul Murray. Hello. I have two questions for Miss Mueller. Do you believe that Billboards make st. Paul neighborhoods more attractive. (00:36:54) You know that's hard for me to answer it. Was it Murray? Yes, Marie. I would have to look at the board and I would have to say what is the environment in which this billboard is sitting is it in an area where you have commercial signage? I'll give you an example. I was at a corner just last week when I went to st. Paul to look at some Billboards and review them and at that corner, we had a billboard on top of a building a commercial building and as I looked at the billboard I looked at a bus bench with advertising. I looked at it Transit shelter with advertising. I looked at about 12 on-premise signs advertising Kentucky Fried Chicken and a liquor store and a dry cleaners and within that context. I do not find that billboard to be more or less adding or detracting to that commercial landscape. So I think we have to Define as the neighborhood. Meaning. There's a billboard in somebody's front yard. I'm going to tell you a billboard doesn't belong in somebody's front yard. (00:37:52) Second question Maria. My second question is as I was trying to do the math on the exchange thing. You were proposing. It sounds to me like we would need about 75 or a hundred more signs real big Billboards on places like Snelling Avenue and and Highway 280. I'm wondering if you think that would make those areas more (00:38:12) attractive. Well, I personally and I obviously have a bias but I personally think when one is on a highway signage often is a part of that landscape in pretty much every Community across the country again, I would have to look at the context of what's going on visually in that area. I've seen signs that I think are not very appropriate and I am not defending every sign and it's placement. Please don't hear me doing that. But I think there are appropriate places for signs and I think that when using st. Paul which is who were talking about I think there's a way to go into the City and take a look at where those Billboards are and find out if their places that would be more appropriate and see if there's a way we could make an exchange and we've never been opposed to doing that but we will be pretty defensive over somebody saying I want to take your business and not pay you for it opposed to let's work together and figure out if there's a way we can reshape the (00:39:04) landscape John is Manila. Is there a way to deal with these Billboards on a case-by-case basis so that if you have one that is clearly to most people Opinion inappropriate or inappropriately located I should say that you can get rid of it. Well, there would be if the billboard industry was willing to work with us and they haven't been they simply have fought us every step of the way we two years ago city council was a lame duck city council by the way voted 72 nothing to get rid of or actually, I'm sorry to put a moratorium on the billboard just say there are no more Billboards in the city for a period of a year the mayor waited until it was new counsel in he vetoed it and we weren't able to get with a billboard industry's lobbying where we were not able to even get that. We have tried time and time again to limit our the Billboards what we have we have so many Billboards though Gary if you look at Bloomington, which is the third largest city in the state one of the perhaps the most successful commercially in the state only has seven Billboards on the highway if they were to be the same as us. They'd have to put 200 more Billboards in the in the neighborhoods in their area to have the same number per capita. So the problem is so out of control is is to work on a one-to-one basis for on 600. They are doing it on seven. They're trying to work with each one 600 is we need to deal with seriously very quickly if we're going to have the quality of life in the city that we hope to Quick (00:40:40) comment here. I was just going to say up until the last week when I've done a couple of radio shows their television spots. I've never personally met anyone from Scenic st. Paul. No one ever called us and said, hey, could we talk let's chat about this. Look where this billboard is and to my knowledge not one other Outdoor Company executive or manager has ever been asked anything either by this organization. I (00:41:03) would disagree with that. I also chair Scenic Minnesota and we have talked to you in met with your to me personally. No, no your attorneys. That's who the only people you would you would always. Use the speak with us or respond to the media. So we spoke with your attorneys. (00:41:18) Well, I would say if you want to have dialogue you don't do it through the media and you don't do it through lawsuits. Well, I agree with that. You actually would call someone and say we would like to make this effort to sit down and talk with you and express what our perception is and figure out if there's a way for us to work with the city government to accomplish a mutual goal that would achieve both sides. But again, I stand by my statement. I have never received a phone call a letter or had a request for a meeting up until this last week furthermore in terms of the mayor vetoing this ordinance, which we certainly had nothing to do with that veto. He vetoed the ordinance because he believed and just as the Saint Paul Chamber of Commerce has published their opinion that it would be bad for st. Paul tube and billboards to eliminate Billboards. That doesn't mean anybody saying let's go out and build 500 more. It's saying they have their place. Let's review it. Let's take a look at it, but I can't speak for the mayor. He would have to speak for himself. But I believe his comments were he thought it would be bad for business. The economics of st. Paul and I certainly know that the Saint Paul Chamber of Commerce along with the Pioneer Press editorial board along with the Star Tribune editorial board have all printed their positions in the last 10 days that urge the voters of Saint Paul to vote. No, (00:42:29) I vote by way of comparison here now apparently most is it is it fair to say that most suburbs essentially banned Billboards is that more or less accurate entirely either have moratoriums that there are no more Billboards or that they don't allow them at all and in terms of the City of Minneapolis, what's what's the situation in (00:42:50) Minneapolis Minneapolis has assigned ordinance. It does allow for the building of signs again going back about five years ago. They altered the sign ordinance so that they created these zones where they had a preference for us to remove some signage in areas that they felt that they would like to see reduction. They created areas, they called opportunity zones and may I say that that opportunity Zone was not a guarantee we could build a billboard but merely We have the right to go look for a site to be able to build a board and comply with other regulations (00:43:20) Sheldon your question, please yeah, just a quick comment that I have been appalled by the amount of money looks like it's being spent by the billboard companies to try to convince us that these nuisances are wonderful thing. No when I took my daughter to Humboldt Senior High School over the past year. I have to drive down Robert Street enter west side and there I'd see on one side a Miller draft beer billboard with some erotic kind of picture of some woman on one side and the other side Howard Stern with some big-breasted lady posing. It was embarrassing and quite frankly. I thought it gave a very negative kind of connotation for the west side that I was entering to take my kid to school. Those are on Roberts Street entering right on on the west side. Is that a state highway? So without those Billboards be affected one way or the other by this. (00:44:11) I don't know the answer to that. I don't know the answer to that one either. (00:44:14) I think it's interesting that you know, and the billboard person talked only thing that she can hide behind is this legal ease of property rights? There's no real discussion of Interest as what's in the best interest of the neighborhood or the community and I guess that that bothers me too. Thanks. I you know, I agree with you wholeheartedly. In fact, the only thing that the billboard people are saying is that if we lose the ballot on Tuesday that they're going to sue us. Well, I don't think that is the way we need to make our public policy out of a threat of a lawsuit and if they do sue us let me tell you what happens. We were sued in federal court a few weeks ago to keep us off the ballot. They spent sixty two thousand dollars according to their report on that lawsuit. We spend $79 and we won in in Jacksonville. There was a referendum 12 years ago exactly like ours they won. They billboard company. It was negly at the time in Jacksonville took it to court lost their and we're and the city was What did the legal fees so you know this talk about how much we're talk in dollars if we're talking about 325 million dollars for a baseball stadium a couple hundred thousand dollars on a lawsuit is really pennies to everybody in the city and that will you'll find hundred times over in increase property values if we can get rid of those signs (00:45:29) if I could I would just like to correct mr. Manila's statement about this case in court a couple of weeks ago which was in federal court. First of all, we did not Sue singing st. Paul because they're very clever. They aren't being sued. They make the city have to be the ones to be sued and that means the taxpayers have to be sued I will say about the money we're spending we're defending our business. We're trying to keep someone from taking away half of our business just because this group of people decide they don't like it anymore and I think the fact that one is a legal business and has been a legal business for close to a hundred years is a pertinent fact, but what happened in federal court was that number one? The federal court judge said come back after the election and then I will rule in any of these legal. He made absolutely no ruling on a legal point the only definitive ruling he made was he did not allow Scenic st. Paul to do what is called intervene in the case because he said they did not have an interest in the case that is a definitive ruling that is a matter of public record and it basically says I'm not ruling on any of this until after the (00:46:28) election Leann that that isn't true either. He said he wouldn't allow us to intervene because it was no need to because he found an for us. The other thing is is that he did say that we would be damaged more than you if this wasn't allowed to go to ballot. We're happy to go to court and and and see if the stands on its own two feet. We don't know if you are I don't I can't understand why you're spending so much money to keep it from ever getting there. It would be a seem to be a lot easier just to bring it to court and let the judge decide hundreds of cities hundreds of counties for entire states have all been able to do what we're trying to do. I'm court has ruled consistently that commercial free speech is not protected like other Free (00:47:16) Speech. Well, that's very untrue and the Pioneer Press editorial board completely disagrees with everything you say as well as the Star Tribune editorial board and I think they know a pretty fair amount about the first amendment in its rights and (00:47:28) protect. I don't think that's a good judge. I think a court of law is the judge and if you want to look at at who is telling us that we shouldn't do it. Look at the they're all from outside of st. Paul. Well, we are just about out of time here, but I did have to ask you the stadium question is gotten substantially more attention than this billboard issue. Is that going to impact how the the billboard question is resolved. You think I don't think so. I hope that a lot of people turn out and vote. (00:48:00) I don't really know if that'll impact it or not. But I do find it interesting that just right down the street at Sixth and Cedar the stadium initiative has used public right of ways to hang a big banner over the the overpass. And that signage again is something people use to get out their message. (00:48:15) Thanks folks. Appreciate you coming in John monello. Who is the chairman of Scenic st. Paul Lee Ann Miller who is with Eller media the ballot question being decided tomorrow in st. Paul Minnesota meteorologist, Mark Seeley on the weather. Oh my goodness were getting huge amounts of precipitation and a very high frequency of rainy days Minnesota timber wolf Malik Sealy on the weather. (00:48:43) I'm a New York at me. I gotta say I'm spoiled so I go home, but I brought my big coat from back east and you know, I just have to live with it and roll through it (00:48:50) different perspectives on Morning Edition weekdays from 529 will talk about that Stadium issue over the noon hour today here on midday.