(00:00:24) Good morning, and welcome to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us test scores released last spring found that 78% of Minnesota school students were able to pass the eighth grade basic skills reading test that's given to students in Minnesota about 48 percent of the students in Minneapolis. And st. Paul passed the reading test now those scores marked an improvement over previous years, but they also underscored the fact that a good many Minnesota school students can't read very well in Minnesota is generally doing better than the rest of the nation consider this statistic in 1995 12 percent 12 percent of all college freshman needed remedial reading help what to do. Well a Minnesota literacy Summit is getting underway in Minneapolis today to try to make sure that all Minnesota school children learn to read and joining us today as a co-chair of the Minnesota literacy Summit Rosemary Miller who is the coordinator of early literacy programs at the University of Minnesota. Order as always we invite you to join our conversation. We're talking about reading this our how to improve reading instruction in the schools. And if you've got a question or a comment we invite you to give us a call six five one two, two seven six thousand. That's our Twin City area number six, five. One two, two seven six thousand if you're calling from outside the Twin Cities, you can reach us toll free at 1-888-438-6557 and or 1-800 to for to 2828 Rosemary Miller. Thank you for coming in today. My pleasure. What was the impetus for the summit? What what made you decide well now is the time to get the experts together. (00:02:03) Well, the university has a rather large literacy faculty actually and we thought that since there are seem to be struggling issues going on with reading that we really ought to Have the university as a resource, does it to the literacy community? And we wanted to bring together a group of people. We have the state senators. We have the superintendents teachers and then University people. We wanted to talk about the actual research and the practice of reading (00:02:33) together. Now, I noted the test scores. The basic skills test scores are those cause for great concern great alarm in your mind shouldn't kids be able to do better on those those basic skills (00:02:50) tests. I think they're cause for some concern. Yes. Definitely. I'm we would like to have a hundred percent of the children passing. We have are a variety of reasons why they don't but part of the problem is Our children are really reading about as well. Now as they were 20 years ago. If you look at the national assessment of educational progress, there isn't much difference. The difference is we have a different world and we have many many more requirements for a reader than we did 20 years ago. They have to read complex computer manuals. They have to read more difficult texts and they need higher order reading skills. It used to be that you were literate. If you could write your name and read a sentence that doesn't work anymore. Hmm. And so there's been a real shift in the demand on the public around the the young people for their reading they need to develop greater and greater skills. So that the comprehension skills get to the point where they're inferencing and they're comparing and contrasting and not just decoding and understanding the text but they build a body of knowledge for themselves. They put it with their experience. They related to what's coming up. They related towards they watch on TV. No, they basically any reading experience really should build on your prior knowledge. So you create basically your own set of the world and the understanding of the world. You keep continue to add to that as you read and (00:04:20) learn reading expert Roberts Lavin Johns Hopkins University professors quoted as saying that we know how to teach virtually every student regardless of family background. We know how to teach them how to read well and do enjoy reading. Is that true? (00:04:37) Yes, I think it is true. We do know how to teach reading. (00:04:40) So it's not just a question that kids are coming from poor backgrounds or this that or the other (00:04:44) thing those are all issues. Definitely. I mean, there's no question that the fact that we have an increasing population of immigrants in our schools. I mean, you know, I now going to the Minnesota Minneapolis public schools and the signs are written in three different languages that is contributing the level of poverty in the Minneapolis and st. Paul. Also definitely contributing but the fact those are facts we have to deal with those and we have to do it in a way where we've teaching kids how to read and we do know how to do that. We need to muster our resources and that's part of what this Summit is about is to bring together everyone who's involved in this process not only the research people but the practitioners and also the legislators who really need to know what we need as University people and people have in the community to teach reading effectively (00:05:35) in a nutshell. How did we get off track if we know how to how to teach the kids to read yet? There are large numbers of kids who aren't reading very well. What what happened? What what went wrong? (00:05:48) I think it may have taken. This is my own personal impression. It may have taken us a while to catch up with how much the world has changed. It used to be that we assumed that children came to school ready to read. There is a hole Five years of emergent literacy skills that they need before. They're ready to read it. You don't just start in kindergarten you start to the day they're born and There are many many more influences now on a young child and they used to be and I'm not saying that those are bad influences. They now and sit when I grew up you read when you went, you know, that was what you had to do you listen to the radio you read now, you can watch TV you can play a computer game, you know, there isn't exactly the same Focus that there was one reading and I don't think the reading that the reading world has quite caught up to that that we really need to stress that you have to spend time reading kids learn to read by reading and they don't learn it from computers as much as that may contribute some they don't learn it from watching TV, although I don't want to make that into in any in any way shape or form an enemy because TV certainly can be used also if you sit down and talk about a program with your child, that's a very beneficial experience and I didn't broadens their world. A lot of reading is is prior knowledge and background and if kids don't have a lot of experiences then they're going to have more trouble. So for example, if If in school you're reading a book about the zoo and one child has gone to the zoo two weeks before and the other child never has been one child brings a great deal more to that reading experience than the other one. And so I think it's taken us a little while to catch up with the idea that we really need to spend a lot of time reading. It used to happen. Naturally. It doesn't happen naturally anymore. So now the Minneapolis public schools, I know are spending at least 90 minutes each day in reading and this is not doing worksheets. This is actual reading, you know, where they wear it with a teachers working with a group the children are doing reading by themselves or reading with one another doing paired reading but it's the actual reading process which is what they have to do (00:07:57) Rosemary Miller is our guest this our she's the coordinator of early literacy programs at the University of Minnesota. She is also the co-chair of a Minnesota literacy Summit that gets underway this afternoon in Minneapolis, and she's been good enough to come by our Studios today to talk about teaching reading in the Rules how the hell'd of process might be improved the importance of reading. If you like to join our conversation. Give us a call here at 6512276006512276 Thousand if you're calling from outside, the Twin Cities, you can reach us toll-free and that number would be one eight hundred two four two 28286512276 thousand or 1-800 to for to 2828 reading is our subject this hour. Now as you well know Ms. Miller, there's been a ongoing ferocious debate about the way to teach kids to read this whole phonics versus whole language issue. First of all, can you give us a quick definition of terms as to how those two two approaches very (00:09:05) well phonics is a an approach that stresses the teaching of the sound letter combination. So you do a lot of site, well sight words are always important but a lot of working specifically with site flashcards in that kind of thing so that they get those clearly down whole language comes with the concept that if you give children good literature, they will learn to read but there really is no huge debate on this and I would like the whole reading War to be put to rest to be very honest with you because we do know that children need to have phonemic awareness. They need to be able to sound make know what the Sounds in a word are and that relates to phonics the sound letter correspondence. You cannot learn to read without that so that is the fun part of it and they need to read good literature to they need to read things that they are interested in things that that excite their their anticipation of what's going to come. Some kids are going to learn to read by themselves my own son learned it for he died didn't Show him site, you know cards. I didn't put showing flashcards. I read to him enormously. I read one book. I think in a Winnie the Pooh book probably 400 times when he was 18 months old and he loved that book title over with it and hand it to me and repetition. That's what kids how kids learn as a lot of repetition. So the meshing of the to I think is really the idea they do need both parts of it. But phonics only you can't just decipher words reading is trying to gain meaning from what you reading. So if you I tutored a young woman this summer who could read beautifully she read the entire page deciphered every single word. In other words decoded it and could pronounce it. We got to the end and I asked her to re tell me the story and she didn't have the vaguest idea what she had read and and that is not reading that's decoding that's understanding the sound cymbal. Whatever it is, but that's not reading unless you come out with the meaning of what you're doing. And that's why comprehension is so important, you know, you really do have to have those skills and you need to be able to read have the fluency and the which make means speed so that you're not just reading dumb the word by word that you are moving quickly enough so that you make sense out of what it is. You're reading (00:11:46) what are.what are Minnesota school students being taught to they get that that are they being the approach that's being used Does it include both aspects of the reading (00:11:56) instruction? I think so it effective teachers have always used both X aspects of it. I mean, I don't they don't buy into the theory that you need one or the other exclusively and effective teachers teach the child that is in front of them. There are lots of theories. But if this particular child is not decoding then you need to work on With that child specifically the other one does not understand then you need to be aware of how you can gain that for him. That's what good teachers do they pay attention to their individual students and that's very tough which is why teaching an elementary school is real challenge in my mind because you really do have to be aware of where each student is and try and move them along in their own at their own pace (00:12:44) and our teachers are being trained properly so that they are flexible in that way and not wedded to one approach or the other (00:12:51) or I think so I think so. I certainly what I see at the University of Minnesota which trains many of the teachers that are going out into the elementary schools in the secondary schools stressed the balance of of the approaches. No (00:13:06) Rosemary Miller is our guest this our coordinator of the early literacy programs at the University of Minnesota co-chair of a big Minnesota literacy Summit that begins this afternoon. She's come by this hour to talk about reading again, if you'd like to join our conversation six five. One two two seven six thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight Chris. Go ahead Place South Dakota. I just had a couple quick questions for you one was. I think we all have realized that parents and in fact the whole family children involved. I'll have busier lives and I'm just curious what you what your thought is what your thoughts are on. The effect that parents have honoring their children and the other thing was the whole deciphering thing. I know I grew up in a small town, but we still had large classes but we did take the phonics thing and I remember at a young age walking into a local grocery store and breaking down the word looking at the word and sounding it out as it went as I read it now. I didn't understand the word of the time but it also gave me the Forefront just to be able to read the word and then later on in its context. I could I could decipher it. I guess that's just my two questions. (00:14:21) I agree with you that that families are busier and busier and busier. I think that parents are extraordinarily important in children's literacy development and from birth on but I think that rather than always sitting down with the book which I still think is very important, but we are very busy just using the opportunity seize the opportunity that is there. When you're in the grocery store talk about what your by know, this is a head of lettuce. I'm going to weigh it no and and have give the work the child the understanding of what the experience is and use those opportunities use if you're on a bus use the signs on the bus read with your child about that talk about whatever is going on. You want to broaden their experience enormously and since we are so busy. I think we have to do it whenever we can whether it's in the doctor's office or in the grocery store or ice. Turn off the radio and and when I was writing down the with my children in the car and talk to him and I'll talk to him about where we were going and what was happening and what we saw along the way and see if they could read the signs, you know, the street signs. So take the opportunity. You (00:15:35) allowed your parental responsibilities to interfere with radio listening. (00:15:40) I'm sorry to say that I did I did turn off MPR because they didn't want to listen to NPR and their young either. So it was a pleasure. Let (00:15:47) me ask you this. If a child comes from a family where forever whatever reason they aren't red to they aren't helped out when they're young are they pretty much doomed to failure then they show up in kindergarten and they don't they just haven't had this background or they (00:16:01) know they're not doomed and that's the whole point. They it used to be that that we slow down the reading of children like that who came unprepared but we now realize that it's really an experience thing. They have not had the experience and so teachers intensify what they're doing. They give them more reading time. They Art them with a different base on they have to go back and make sure they know their alphabet make sure they're know their name and how to spell their name things that many kids come to come to school knowing already simply because they've been exposed to language and literature and talk to a lot now tutoring one of the things that I'm in charge of is a tutoring program from the University of Minnesota and tutoring is a wonderful way to give those students an extra opportunity to read so they get 90 minutes in class and they get another half an hour with a tutor reading one-on-one. And so that gives them two hours a day and that replaces for many of those students whose parents are not necessarily reading to them either because they don't know how to read themselves. They don't speak English or because they're uncomfortable reading because for them school was always painful. Why would they want to repeat that experience for those kids just more you give them more and more and and it's possible to bring them up to Pardon and no quick fix book by Richard Allen. And he makes the case very very much that that we shouldn't have children not learning to read except for those who have some special ed problem or you know, I mean most children can learn to read regardless of their (00:17:33) background Sarah your question, please I just had a comment. I'm a Montessori teacher in South Minneapolis and have really seen the importance of adults modeling reading to their children in the home. I mean, of course, it's so important to read to your child, but I think it's really important for children to see adults enjoying reading and for children to see adults read silently to themselves. I knew one little boy who thought reading only as a social activity and I think especially with parents are with households where both parents work parents use that reading time as a time to connect with their child and the child Associates Reading only with the social activity and sometimes becomes unable to take that book by themselves. My daughter is But she takes books and and you know reads her own story. She doesn't read yet, but she makes up her own story to herself as she looks at the book and I just wanted to mention the importance of modeling and I am so glad you're talking about this this morning. Thank you. (00:18:37) I couldn't agree with you more modeling is extraordinary important and I make that point to the tutors that I send out that they need to let those young people know how important reading is to them and that's why many of them want to tutor is because reading has been a major part of their life and they want to share that with other with other young people. (00:18:57) I would imagine it's difficult to teach a child to read I would think that would just be extraordinary difficult yet. We have tutors helping President Clinton wants a million people to volunteer to be tutors. Can anybody do this? (00:19:16) Trained tutors have the best results if they are not trained in some way to teach reading then they tend to be friends, which is there's nothing wrong with that but you're not necessarily tutoring reading. I send my tutors through three our initial training and then we have reflective sessions every two weeks to talk about what's happening with them. So they have a tutoring lesson pretty much set up and they know what will help a child. So and that's the idea behind it is you really need to send them out with some knowledge and then let it grow as they experience it (00:19:52) Karen your question, please actually I just have a comment regarding the reading contest that the kids do in middle school and in grade school. I used to be in favor of them until I realized that in their rush to read as many books as possible to get all the presents and awards that they would get that their comprehension really plummeted. They had no idea. What stories they were reading they would read them so quickly just to have a sign off on them, you know 70 books a month that their comprehension just plummeted and it stayed with them through High School 70 books a month. So easily they would gobble up anything. They could get their hands on it didn't matter what they were reading as long as they as long as (00:20:37) they read. Well, I would as a former English teacher I would have to say my first thing would be to make sure that they really understood. I mean, I always talk to each student with about the book that they were reading independently so that I knew that they actually had read it and that anything that they didn't understand I could try and clarify so you're right just reading for the sake of reading words is not really reading. (00:21:01) What about Patricia Harvey st. Paul's School Superintendent once every child read 25 books a year is that approach a good idea? I would think they're in some cases at least kids would get the feeling that this really is a tedious chore as opposed to something. That's fun to do. (00:21:20) I would hope that their classroom teachers and their parents would encourage them to read things that they were interested in Reading. I mean, I think that if you find something which really fascinates you reading can never be a tedious chore. I think that anything that gets parents and it's not just kids who are supposed to be news everybody. It's the parents and the teachers and the principals and so the coal concept of modeling is once again there that everybody is reading and this is something we really like to do together. So I guess if you're reading Uncle Tom's Cabin and you reading 20 trying to read 25 of those that might be more than a little challenge for for, you know high school students. So I think there has to be some understanding of exactly what one is attempting but for a young child K3 when they really need to develop those skills 25 books is a very reasonable. Amount for them to for them to do in the course of a year, Doug your question. (00:22:18) Oh, yeah. It's a it's a comments actually the what I've noticed with the Minneapolis public schools over the last 20 odd years is that the School's teachers seem to have adopted in practice what I would call a whole word recognition strategy for a lot of students who haven't picked up the phonics and from from talking to teachers. I've I've discovered that an awful lot of them have no idea how to actually provide direct instruction and phonics and the you know, that's a you know, actually I mean children will never be one thing if you know one thing that's important to bounce a learning the sounds symbol relationship is it a lot of children have have got a bigger vocabulary as far as the spoken. Which then they would from the from their site vocabulary and that you know, there are a lot of words out there that the they would know in the written language if they could simply decode them and higher level reading skills are simply and you know a sufficient vocabulary or simply not I mean a vocabulary of like if you're going for vocabulary ultimately of like 10,000 words in the written language acquiring those just through developing a bigger side. Vocabulary is is an extraordinarily difficult task. (00:23:53) Well, I would definitely say that some children need much more explicit teaching in how to decode words and teachers do get training in phonics. It's a rather complicated system. I've never come across one who didn't have any idea of how to divide up a word and Sam. Sounded out and show the kids how to how to sound out the word. So (00:24:18) I was in in preparing for this program doing some reading and ran across some articles indicating that new teachers as they would come in and apply for a job in many instances were almost apologetic. They didn't know a lot about the whole phonics thing to the extent that they did know something about it. They just assume that they couldn't and shouldn't be teaching that that approach but that's not a problem here in Minnesota, right? (00:24:45) I don't think so. I mean, I we emphasize that that you the children do need to know that sound letter correspondence. That's the phonemic awareness. You must any child must have and that's whether they have to be able to hear those sounds within the let within the words. I don't really know how well teachers are being trained and phonics. It is a very complicated system. It's not it's not something that is necessarily used. Every classroom even though they may be a part of it the day that but most most classrooms at least in Minneapolis have a huge phonic Center where the teachers can use and it's very well explained so I would be surprised and I don't know about Saint Paul but usually that's an aspect of any good reading program because it's some kids just need really explicit instruction in in that so I don't know (00:25:39) Rosemary Miller is our guest this are she's coordinator of the early literacy programs at the University of Minnesota. She is the co-chair of a Minnesota literacy Summit that gets underway this afternoon, and we thought it'd be great opportunity to talk about reading reading instruction. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call here six five one two, two seven six thousand 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll-free at 1-844-202-2727 6,000 or 1-800 to for to to 828 get to some more callers here in a couple. Minutes are you worried about inflation are American workers losing their jobs to foreign Rivals get the answer to these and other economic questions when Federal Reserve board chairman, Alan Greenspan comes to the Twin Cities on September 30th to discuss trade and Technology. Hi, I'm Chris Farrell join me at 7:00 for a discussion about economic literacy. Then listen to Greenspan speech in participate in a panel discussion. It's all on KN o WF M 91.1 in the Twin Cities, by the way, while we have a moment an invitation to join us over the noon hour today today. We're going to hear from NBC news anchor and now best-selling author Tom Brokaw Brokaw was in the Twin Cities this morning to speak at the University of Minnesota. The Carlson lecture about the greatest Generation his book about the folks who made it through the depression One World War II and eventually turn America into the world's only superpower Tom Brokaw coming up over the noon hour with the Carlson lecture right now time for some news headlines. Here's got a Cunningham Greta. (00:27:11) Thanks, Gary. Morning, Arizona Republican Senator. John McCain has formally launched his bid to become the party's presidential candidate. McCain says his top issues are campaign Finance reform and National Security. He also says he'll protect Social Security and cut taxes. McCain is far behind in the polls. And in the money to the party's presidential FrontRunner, Texas, governor George W. Bush, but recent polls are showing support for McCain is growing in New Hampshire former Vice President. Dan Quayle is pulling out of the Republican race for the presidential nomination Linda Tripp who brought the Monica Lewinsky scandal to light is suing the White House and her employer the defense department. She claims they use confidential records to smear her reputation. The federal suit outlines the alleged release of information to the news media from forms trip filed with the Pentagon drip is seeking an unspecified amount of money for what she calls harm to reputation and emotional distress and humiliation. President Clinton says, he remains hopeful that stability will soon return to Indonesia us relations with Jakarta. Been strained since East Timor voted to split from Indonesia the vote prompted violence and riots in East Timor Clinton says America needs to stand against actions that violate human rights earlier this month the u.s. Suspended military aid in cooperation with Indonesia in Regional news burning restrictions in The Boundary Waters canoe area have been relaxed campfires are now permitted in Forest Service fire grades located within the restricted area of the Boundary Waters. However, open Camp fires continue to be prohibited at all times in the same areas gas and propane stoves are still allowed in all areas of The Boundary Waters canoe area a drive-by shooting at a st. Paul school bus stop injured two teenagers this morning the boy and girl both about 16 years old were struck in the leg. They are hospitalized in good condition police are still searching for the shooters the forecast for Minnesota today calls for partly to mostly cloudy skies Statewide. There's a chance of showers in Northern and Eastern Minnesota high temperatures today mainly in the 50s at this hour in Duluth. It's partly sunny and 53 partly sunny in Rochester and 53 and in In cities partly sunny a temperature of 54 Gary. That's a look at the latest news. (00:29:17) All right. Thanks Greta 25 minutes before noon. This is midday of Minnesota Public Radio in our guest. This hour is Rosemary Miller the co-chair of a Minnesota literacy Summit that gets underway this afternoon in Minneapolis. She is the coordinator of early literacy programs at the University of Minnesota and she's been good enough to come by today to talk about reading and reading programs reading instruction. Again, here's the number to call if you'd like to join our conversations 6512276 thousand. That's our Twin City number six five. One two, two seven six thousand outside the Twin Cities toll-free 1-800 to for to to 828 Victoria. Go ahead please. I have a question and a comment first about phonics if they learn phonics by using their hands, you know, so that well using our hands instead of just in the story if the phonics is embedded in a store. I think it works better. I've taught I've helped to teach first graders how to read and and also I also did great books for the first graders and my son's school would Master the basic material and I've really enjoyed that I guess the book that I taught. My son was when he was ready for it when he was in kindergarten was how to teach your child to read in 100 Easy Lessons. The title was a turn-off but I liked the approach because if the child is there's a connection I think between the hand and the mind, you know, it's like why writing down notes, even if you never refer to them helps you remember the material anyway in my question is Last year last summer in order to keep them reading over the summer for every 25 books. He read over the summer. He got a booster pack of Pokemon cards, and I'm now that he's in second grade. He has to write a two or three sentence book report. Is that okay? To get out a packet of Pokemon cards little love Ribery. Does that help? (00:31:21) I have no problem with that. I think we call it motivation. In other instances nasty way of saying well, you know, I (00:31:30) said the news business, you know, (00:31:34) oftentimes offered my children some sort of positive outcome for not all the time, but for something that I felt was a valuable and that's really a Child Development issue. There are people who say that's not a good thing to do. I don't have a problem with it and reading and writing develop very closely together. That's why if you have them write about what they're reading. It's always really good exercise because they they go in tandem if you watch kids begin to write to write they first laundering scribble writing and then they begin to form the letters after years after that and much like they do the progression in their understanding of the letters Within A Word there. Really tried to mimic it on a piece of paper. Mimic what they're seeing their (00:32:21) what about spelling in efforts to modify the way we teach reading did we kind of throw out the whole idea of getting kids to spell correctly that get lost by a lost along the way (00:32:33) I don't think so. I think what has happened is we now allow children to do. Or the phonemic spelling initially like you are. Well, it might just be a you and Ann are in the beginning but gradually as you are working on those words like the word y OU instead of just the letter you you you teach them that that is the word. There's a real progression in spelling just as there is reading and as you go along with most teachers that I know are have their spelling sets that relate to whatever the child is reading. So it's a part just as much a part of it as is ever as it has ever been in my in my experience what I see in the school's now Mark. Oh go ahead. I'm just going to say there's some kids who no matter how many spelling lists you give them are going to be poor spellers and many of those are not kids who have good visual learning skills. So, you know about those kids. I don't know what we do. But Mark your (00:33:32) question. Yes, I want to make a comment and that is a children become emotionally ready. You read at different ages just as a on a younger level become you ready psychologically to walk at different ages and that I believe that we in our school systems. We have a one size fits all situation. I have two children. Both of them were read to at least 40 books a day in there, you know pre school days, they both love stories and listening to hearing stories. One of them refused us to read and I have literally given up trying to make him read because I feel it's an exercise in futility and pain for and the other one is a voracious reader reads several books a day and I think different children are different. I myself didn't learn to read until I was in the sixth grade and by the Create I was reading Swiss Family Robinson and Jules Verne. So I think that I would like to hear the guest comment on emotional and psychological Readiness for reading as part of the overall strategy for learning to read I'll hang up and take the answer. Thank you, okay. (00:35:00) Well, I would definitely agree their developmental stages and children come to them at different levels. I mean a different times one child may be ready to read when he's four and one may not until 10 like you but hopefully most of them around grade one because after that they're become some problems that arise if you cannot read and it becomes more of a psychological and emotional issue because the rest of the class is reading and you're still struggling, so I think we need to work very very hard to have children reading well by grade three, hopefully well by the end of first grade if with a lot of intensive instruction because after that, then you get into the issue of them not wanting to read because They don't think they can read as well as somebody else whether or not that's actually true. We don't know but the fact is that the emotional psychological element than plays a much larger part than it would if they went off in first grade and said, oh yippee I can learn to read now and did (00:36:03) the target often seems to be we want our kids to read by the end of third grade. Is that too late in the game. Do you think should that Target time be set to maybe at the end of first grade in all instances and then allowing for the fact that some kids aren't going to make that (00:36:19) I think the most kids do read by the end of first grade. I mean read on a first grade level they're not reading at a third grade level, right? But the reading on level most children for those of you who are not then we need to give them more intensive efforts in second grade to bring them up to par. The reason why third grade is targeted is because Between third and fourth grade you go from learning to read to reading to learn if that makes any sense. In other words that you're no longer spending all your time. Just figuring out how to do the reading you then have to to do science and social studies and you were becomes much more oriented towards getting information in and comprehending it and making sense of it and establishing a bigger world. So that's why there's a real sort of a difficult time for many kids between third and fourth grade if they haven't mastered the reading process (00:37:11) Carolyn your next go ahead, please. Hi. I've got a close friend that works in the Minneapolis public schools in the high school and they are having a reading program going on right now to get kids to read and so they've pulled together a bunch of books at the grade level average grade letter level of the kids in the school. And because there are so many kids in the classroom from they get immigrants all the time and they're pretty much mainstreamed way before they're really Able to read and write in many cases most cases and they found that the average grade level of reading in the high school is fourth and fifth grade. And those are the books they've pulled together and I'm kind of afraid that with the profiles learning and the schools being kind of on the gun on whether they're doing a good enough job that they're you know, it's something that people don't want to know about that. They're kind of hiding but how you know, how can we get these kids to really learn how to read particularly the immigrants and it just seems like a real (00:38:14) problem. Well, I think it is a problem, but they need to be reading on the grade level that they are capable of reading on so that they can do independent reading so they can be scaffolded to the next level. You can't give them 10th grade material if their level of reading is fourth grade the difficulties in finding good material that they're interested in Reading that's on the fourth grade level high interest books that that kids of that age want immigrant children. Generally once they pick up the reading I mean may it be the philosophy is too mainstream them because they learn an enormous amount from their peers and they listen and they watch what the what the other children are doing who are are English speakers and they assimilate that very quickly if they're littered in their own language if they're not literate in their own language and that's a longer process because they didn't know how to read well in their own language necessarily. So it's learning English language language and reading is going to be more difficult but The fact is that you can then you can take them to the next level, but you have to get them on the level where they are or it's going to be an unpleasant. And anxiety-ridden experience for (00:39:26) them kids. Who are they who don't speak English are they generally taught to read in their native language first and then English or do you just try to teach him in English right (00:39:41) away probably depends on when they get here. I mean many of them may come literate in their own language and then that jump to English is much more. So if they are preschool and their family only speaks the first language then hopefully their parents are reading to them in that language because the more literate they are and that language the war transfer there is to English so that they'll have a much easier time. Not only learning English but learning to read in (00:40:05) English kind of your question. Yeah. My question is about children who have had all of the advantages of modeling reading and of being read to and who actually love books, but don't learn to read well. Kind of on schedule and as a parent of one of those children, it is very frustrating to be told over and over and over again. If you just read to your child, this child will learn to read when we've done that and we've been through tutoring and we've had assessments and all that sort of thing. And so it's really frustrating to although I do those things are so important and I want everybody to be doing that. It's not the full picture for all (00:40:54) kids. No, I would agree with you. There are children for whom everything that you can possibly do doesn't produce a reader and I've talked to a number of parents for whom that is very very difficult. If you've had them assess and you've done one-on-one tutoring. I recommend one-on-one tutoring for many of those children just because that person is very attuned to how that child is reading and can identify what the possible problems there. Maybe I'm not absolutely sure we can turn every child into someone who loves to read. What we want to be able to do is have every child be able to read well enough to do whatever he or she needs to do in the world and that takes a lot of practice. I mean, we want them to be able to read those computer manuals and those Auto mechanical texts or whatever they need. This is a very complicated world. We don't just put together cars anymore by a sort of instinct (00:41:49) what role does class size play in this issue. Does it make a big difference or is reading such? Individual thing that in a way you really need that one-on-one instruction if if a child is having problems, (00:42:04) it's always better in my mind to have a smaller class because then the child gets more individual attention. However, that's not always possible and classes are often set up in groups and groups are doing peer tutoring reading with one another with a stronger reader slightly with a slightly less. Well, someone who leads slightly red, huh? So I'm going to read slightly less well and they both benefit because the one learns from the others mistakes and can help one another they help one another more or less. If you if you have a classroom with a lot of kids then you have to be very genius teacher and make sure you have Stations and things where they can be individually their needs met. (00:42:46) Let's get at least one more caller on here before we wrap up Jay. Hi your guest is started at the outset of your program that quote. We I think she meant she and other experts we know how to teach reading and later. She said the reading Wars are done and wondering what do literary experts such as herself at a major research University do to justify their existence or what. Do you advise your doctoral students to do their dissertations on and I guess that has a kind of undercurrent of his question. What potential does further sort of cutting-edge research in reading learning how to read have a potential to become bleeding edge research. So to speak and really screw up the learning teaching process. If you know it all now why I continue to study the (00:43:33) subject. Well, I don't think we know it all now. We definitely don't know how to teach strategies to Children higher-order comprehensive strategies to the extent that we would like to there's very little out there that is to show teachers how to go about doing that. We know how to teach the basics of reading very well. We're working on developing it further and further so that we do I mean we continue to live in a more and more complex World reading skills have to develop and make sure so that we make sure all children develop those skills to a higher level. So I think the research will probably continue on in areas that where it needs to be done. (00:44:11) Now we have time for one more caller Dave. Yes. Hi. Thanks for taking my call. Try to be quick. This may help some of the listeners. I just caught it a bit ago terms of what's been talked about. I've got three children to learn to read quickly one has a great difficulty. Reading the school systems when help because they have a bias against phonetics. I just I'm sure of that what we did though is we found I believe it's called the reading Institute of Minnesota. We had to go to Rochester to get the right I guess system at least for our son and that was the orton-gillingham systems been around for 50 or 60 years or longer maybe but I just want to put my two cents in then Fanatics is really the way to go especially when you have a child that has a great difficulty if it takes a long time and tremendous amount of patience. But all right now it's a good reader. Thanks Dave. Is it incumbent upon parents if their child isn't reading to search All Around the Globe for some special reading program or parent supposed to know about this kind of thing or can they trust their local school to teach their child properly? (00:45:23) I think 95% of the time they can certainly trust their local school to teach their child properly. There may be instances. Is were a child really needs something that is not being offered to them and it's the teacher really doesn't understand necessarily what what specific area that child has to have in order to understand to read one-on-one tutoring is very very good for that. Some kids need really explicit teaching in phonetics and phonic ropes. That's just a given but not all children need it. So I don't think that we want to blanket the schools with phonics in because once children have broken the code and are reading they don't need to go through and do so much sort of structured work on those sound word correspondences because they know how to read (00:46:12) should we shut off the computers and TVs so that the kids read more (00:46:16) I would never maintain that you shut off the computers and TVs or the radio, but I do think the radio I do think parents need to be careful, especially when they're young. I allowed my children to watch one program a day. And of t on TV and it was pretty strict for a long time about it and they're both Avid readers and I don't know that there's a parallel there but you know, you have to find something else to do if your mom is telling you can't watch TV. (00:46:43) Hmm. What are you hoping will come out of your literacy Summit. (00:46:48) I'm hoping very much that that the community begins to look at the is to the university as a resource and that there's more cooperation and discussion going on. The research is very much on cutting-edge the community and when we need to have that out there, we need to them to know what what is being done. And so just the cooperation in the sense of community communication is very very important. I (00:47:14) think and for parents who are listening right now again if they want to help their child, Just read read read is that the answer (00:47:24) use every single opportunity that you have to develop the child's experience level and the child's literacy level so that can be just talking to them taking a walk and talking about the bugs that are on the sidewalk develops a child's ability to understand the world and the more he understands the world the larger world. He has to build upon and took when he begins to read so that he will understand more. It's like vocabulary, you know, the vocabulary the vocabulary level the more easily. They read in the better readers. They become a lot of that is developed through just World Experience. (00:47:59) Thanks so much for coming in today and good luck with the Literacy Center. Thank you very much Rosemary Miller who is the coordinator of early literacy programs at the U of M. She's co-chair of the Minnesota literacy literacy Summit which its gets underway in Minneapolis and just a few minutes. Actually. This is midday on Minnesota Public Radio will continue in just a moment, Minnesota Public Radio. Sure. We provide great Ray. But we're also online be sure to check out in PR online for current headlines. You can also connect to your favorite shows like Morning Edition and all things considered and while you're at it npr.org. Be sure to look at the top 10 things to do or you can leave a note for Garrison Keillor take the sound when a college entrance exam or look up your birthday on Riders Almanac keep up-to-date with Minnesota Public Radio and the MPR online check us out at npr.org 5 minutes now before noon and time for the writers all