(00:00:10) Good afternoon. Welcome back to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten. It's hard to please everybody but Governor Jesse Ventura may have succeeded in pleasing nearly everybody with the elementary and secondary education budget plan that he's proposing to the Minnesota Legislature. If the governor has his way education spending will increase nearly 14 percent over the next two years this at a time when inflationary costs are only expected to increase about 5% legislators teachers School administrators. They're all giving the governor High marks for his overall proposal this hour, we're going to take a closer. Look at what all that extra money is expected to by joining us by following this hour is children families and learning commissioner Christine Jack's joining us from our news Bureau at the state capitol are two key legislators involved in setting State education policy Larry Polgar Miller the chair of the Senate K-12 education finance committee and Alice eager in the chair of the Minnesota house K-12 education finance committee. Also, we are inviting you to join our conversation this hour, we're taking a closer look at the governor's education budget proposal. And if you have a question or a comment give us a call six, five one two, two seven six thousand. That's our Twin City area number 1-800 to 422828 that will get you through to us on our toll free line from outside the metro area 6512276 thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight now before we get started with our conversation, let's get some more information on what the governor has included in his budget. Here's Minnesota public radio's Tim pug Meyer Ventura wants a healthy spending increase of 561 million dollars for Minnesota's K-12 Public Schools under the plan school districts get an extra eighty eight dollars per pupil the first year and $182 the second year. State would take on a larger share of special education expenses and more money is earmarked for elementary school breakfasts extended day programs and help for non-english speaking students. The Reform Party Governor says, it's money worth spending. That's an investment. I think we can all look at with a smile on our face and a laugh in our hearts and say this is Minnesota's future and I don't think it's a bad idea to invest in our future because these are the taxpayers of the future who will come out of those K through 12 and higher education. The centerpiece of the education proposal is Ventura has 150 million dollars in incentives for schools to lower class sizes in kindergarten through third grade schools would apply for the money with detailed plans for reaching a student-teacher ratio of 17 to 1. Then Torah says his increased support for public schools comes with high expectations. We better get the results the challenges there. They will be backed financially. Lead to get those results now. The ball is in their court with no excuses. I will accept none both Republican and dfl lawmakers say they like mentors funding plans for Education Republican representative. Alice egrants share of the house. K-12 budget division says the governor's proposal closely resembles her funding priorities. She says she agrees with helping schools lower class sizes and then holding them accountable for (00:03:26) results argument is that if you have lower class sizes, they'll be able to read better. They'll you know have their foundational skills down better. So we want to see those results and if we give the money to those (00:03:40) reductions Seagram's counterpart in the senate dfl or Larry Pogo Miller says Ventura is hitting on all the right themes, but he's not sure about the details Pogo Miller says he has a lot of questions about the class size (00:03:53) plan seems to me that's a bit cumbersome. I know his approach is he wants to get the class size reduction and he's he is said during the campaign. (00:03:59) I (00:03:59) was frustrated that we had put money in and it's it didn't seem to accomplish the purpose so we'll have to work through that. So again, the theme is good but I am not sure the approach he's taking is going to be the most effective but we can work through with (00:04:12) them lowering class sizes means hiring more teachers in the state's teachers union has been a big proponent of class size reduction Judy shaba co-president of Education. Minnesota says, she's pleased with the governor's proposal but she's concerned non-licensed teaching assistants might be included in the equation for lowering class sizes. The best way for students to do well is to have highly qualified faculty and the studies where you see class size reduction accomplished by the use of non licensed professionals. Show that it does not have the same outcome. In addition to Ventura has challenged to schools to produce better results. He called on parents to take their children's education. Seriously. He says Parental involvement is one of the keys to a quality public education system and I'm going to challenge the parents of Minnesota to quit blaming the system and to look into the mirror because why should a kid care about his education if Mom and Dad don't we've all been there. We know what it's like think back when you were that age if your mother and father didn't take interest in what you were doing. Why should you I'm Tim pug Mayer Minnesota Public Radio now, by the way, if you'd like some more detailed information on the budget, you can check out our website at NPR dot-org also a reminder that Monday night the governor and legislative leaders Roger mole and Steve's Wiggum will be at the Fitzgerald theater in downtown st. Paul for a live broadcast on the budget will begin at 7 o'clock. And if you'd like to attend the discussion Person, you can pick up a ticket at the Fitzgerald the Mississippi Market or the wedge Co-op. Otherwise, if you can't be there in person, it'll be on the radio at seven o'clock Monday night or join us online again npr.org right now. We're talking with the commissioner Christine Jackson legislators, Larry polka Miller and Alice see grin about the governor's education proposals. And again, if you have a question or comment 6512276 thousand or 1-800 to for to to 828 commissioner Jack's thanks for joining us. Good morning, Gary. Senator, Paul Miller representative Seeger and thank you for joining us. Thank you. Glad to be here. Now. We've got a lot of questions and I want to get to as many as possible this hour, but before we get to our callers before we start focusing on some of the specifics that the governor has talked about a general comment short one from each of you. If you would please the governor wants to increase K12 spending by what 13.7% I guess. We'll Minnesota children be receiving a better. Creation as a result or are we simply going to be spending more money commissioner? Well Gary, we're going to be spending more money and it's directed toward getting results. The governor has put the money toward class size reduction School breakfasts and extended day programs special education and an increase in the general education formula. Those are things that we know do have a clear impact on improving education. And in addition, we're getting support from teachers and parents and principals as and students to Rally behind us and move forward to improve education representative sea Grant and are we going to be getting more and better education or just spending more (00:07:30) money? Well, we have been spending money in those areas in the past. I think we have put money into class size. We've put money on the general education formula. We have done many of those things. I think the key is going to be how we hold schools accountable. I agree with Governor Ventura. If we give you the money we want to see results and that's going to be the key. I think we've done many of the programs that are being presented. It's how we expect results. And and that's what I'm going to be interested in seeing we have some accountability ideas ourselves in the house and we'll be looking forward to working with Governor Ventura on those issues. (00:08:11) Mmm Center pole the Miller. Are we buying better education with the money or just spending it? (00:08:17) Well, we've worked in all the areas that the governor is talking about over the last few years and I think we will know with his next budget two years from now whether we're just adding more money without results or whether we're making progress (00:08:34) our guests this our state senator, Larry Pulga Miller State Representative Alice egrant and education commissioner Christine Jack's they've joined us this hour to talk about the governor's K-12 education proposal budget was released yesterday. And again, if you'd like to call in with a question, give us a call six five one two, two seven six thousand outside the Twin Cities one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight Marcia Marcia, please go ahead please. Hi Minneapolis. Yes, and I read the paper this morning about holding teachers and principals accountable. I'm curious to know how teachers can be held accountable. I've taught at Edison for five years and About 10% of my class fails just for not showing up for school giving homework assignments. I'm lucky if I get for turned in. Parent-teachers conference has all the teachers call all their students and remind them of conferences and the phones are disconnected. I'm lucky if I see 10 parents and night. I feel like I try my hardest to teach these kids and it scares me to be held accountable when I know I care a lot more than most of my students care. So that was my question Marcia before you run. Do you think spending more money at your school is going to make much of a difference? No. Honestly, no Gary. Can I break in this is mr. Jack Marshall. What would you recommend? What it Where do you think that we can help you best? I don't know. I mean, I agree with what the governor said. These kids are coming from families that could really care less or they appear to not care. I live in the inner city myself for blocks off of Chicago lake and the number of kids that I see playing that never go to school amazes me they're not even sent to school. And these are elementary kids are middle school kids. And so by the time I see him in high school, I have 11th graders who spelled cousin ku's Ein my cousin. And they honestly admit to me they rarely went to elementary school or middle school and I don't know if the system can handle holding them back year after year after year. Okay. Thanks for your call Marcia. Okay, thank you and it gets to the heart of the issue of accountability and and what in the world well, how can people like Marcia be held accountable in a situation like that? And this is commissioner Jax again, you know, I want to point out one thing that that she's talking about children who didn't attend an elementary school, but there is some beauty here. She's talking about students who are still trying and I think that's important to realize at that as a community that there are some students who are having trouble but who are still trying and are still there and it's Our intention to to work at helping students in the younger grades where when they get to the age that she's talking about. They're going to be better prepared. And and I do appreciate what she's talking about. I live just a couple blocks from Edison and I Issues dealing with and the accountability piece. We're going to hold them accountable for the class size reduction and using the money that way and we're going to work with them on the testing and the profile of learning in order to get the best out of the students. Senator Paul go Miller a representative Seagram. It's tough though. If you can't even get the kids into into school to try to teach them anything, what you going to do about that? What can you do about it? (00:12:25) Well that that is the key issue and I think Governor Ventura talked about it last night that parents have to be the prime instructor of children and they have to care enough to get their children to school. They have to be the one to do it. We can't do that governmentally. I think when we talk about holding the system accountable, it's a true two-pronged approach. It's making sure that parents and students are accountable and then if they are in school and they're willing to learn then we look at how the system is working and reacting to those children that are willing to be there. I don't think it's anyone's intent to punish teachers or punish a system because parents and and students are irresponsible and and don't care about their education, but it's looking at those children that are there that are willing to learn and making sure that we're giving them every single opportunity that we can to to accomplish what they need to to. Wait, successfully Center pole good Miller (00:13:25) Marsha from her experience. Anyway said money is not the answer to the issue that there's no particular reason to spend more money at least at her school that they have much bigger fish to (00:13:35) fry. Well, that's partly. I think why Governor Ventura is our governor now, that's what he said during the campaign and that's why I say We'll see you in two years if the Governor Ventura is ideas get at these issues or weather. He rhetorically is not adding anything to the (00:13:54) discussion Catherine your question place. Yes. Hi. I'm from the school district and they've done an absolutely wonderful job of getting parents involved on the grade school level but being a junior high and high school level which my older daughter is in now is the most frustrating situation we find and I talked to a lot of parents and from what I can see this is universal is getting information back from the school districts from the teachers of how we can help our children. They don't send home papers. Basically. It's a great situation where they send home the grades, but when you try to find out information specifically how to help your child improve, we're not being invited into the school's I guess is the best way I can put it they've done a beautiful job on the grade school level doing that helping us those we saw that we can help our children here. I'm hearing a teacher saying they're going way out of their way in another District to do this and what can we do to improve The level of parent participation or being invited into the schools rather than being excluded on the junior high and high school level mister. I know there's some money in the budget for greater parental involvement programs is they're not specifically the class size reduction is something where we're hoping that the parents will help keep the accountability. There isn't anything specific that brings in parent involvement, but I do want to say that I understand what Catherine's talking about. I have junior high students and a high school student and I agree at you know, I have felt even though I love their school district and their teachers. I have felt that the climate and trying to get involved is harder and I think that's something that parents need to keep pushing because your temper that with your Junior High and high school students not quite wanting you around as much in the schools as well. And I think as parents we have to just keep pushing that and going into the schools and insisting that we feel a little bit more welcomed. Hmm. (00:15:47) Catherine are Gary I'll jump into when my kids were. There was a definite cut off when my children entered Junior High and high school and I still wanted to be involved in the only opportunities that they told me I could be involved with was serving school lunch, which is not the most fun in part of parent involvement. But what we have done in our school district that in response to that we used to you know, you have the PTA organizations that your Elementary levels and then they just kind of fell off of the map and Junior High and Senior High. Well, we've begun to organize parent groups. Now that either ptas are there their groups of parents that are organized around particular issues. We had a math and science group of parents that you know, we're really wanting to support curriculum and math and science for students in their high school. So we had something like that and our districts have been very open and encouraging those kinds of involvements and I think in one of our high schools we even have PTA now, but I think those are the kinds of things that parents can push and insist that That we have some vehicles to to really do meaningful things as parents. And as Christine Jack said to you do have the Dilemma Where Your Children just absolutely die, if you walk into school, so you have to do those things as a parent that are kind of behind the scenes and supportive but I think there's plenty of opportunities for school districts to open their doors to parents and get that support and I think that and increases the and strengthens the schools and and the ties with parents very much (00:17:22) focusing on one of the budget items again, the the money for what is it a hundred and fifty million dollars for class size reduction. Does that the goal here is to get the student to teacher ratio to 17 to 1 and in the kindergarten through third grades do is is that ratio aimed at real licensed regular classroom teachers or does that include AIDS and Librarians in the rest now Gary the goal? Is at the intent is that those are going to be licensed teachers. And those are going to be licensed teachers who are actually in the classroom with the students. We this is not a staff a school staff to student-teacher ratio, but we want to have flexibility as far as the The Proposal that the school districts put together. We're not telling them exactly how they have to do it. Maybe they want to have to licensed teachers in the classroom with 30 students. Maybe they want to build more classrooms or schools. Maybe they're going to do some sharing of classroom assignments between curriculum units that's for the district to decide the governor's very clear that he wants to have more local Control Center Program Heller the best possible use of that 150 million dollars in your mind to focus on classroom reductions class size reduction. (00:18:42) Well, we've already spent four hundred fifty six million dollars in the last four four and a half years on class size reduction Governor Ventura. (00:18:51) Gary (00:18:51) wants to add another hundred fifty million. I think that's appropriate I believe. The mechanism is talking about perhaps might not be the most productive, but we will work with them on that. I mean the eye view his efforts here as a continuation of the efforts to legislators been making over the last four or five (00:19:10) years when you say mechanism you mean this this idea where school districts would apply right for money, (00:19:16) right? I were certainly one of work with him on it, but it's not clear to me that filling out Grant applications in this area is overly productive. I you can't have local control. If you ask everybody to fill out a bunch of paperwork and tell you how they're going to do their job seems much more effective to drive the money through the waiting formulas for younger children and get your class size reduction that way but we're open I mean To dealing with the governor on it. And again, we've already spent four hundred fifty six million on precisely what the governor is suggesting. He's adding a hundred fifty million to it. We're for that and we just need to come to an agreement on how to get that money their (00:20:01) failure comment, please. Hi. Thank you very much for including me in thanks a lot for doing this show. I've worked in both the Public public and private schools as a teacher. I strongly welcome Governor interest budget and I certainly welcome the accountability. I think the most maybe the most important thing he's doing is trying to inspire, you know, sort of parents to take their roles seriously, and I just think that there's probably nothing more important than the strength of parents commitment to the system. Sometimes I wonder and I would be interested in hearing your guests responses. If there shouldn't be mandated parental accountability. It seems to me that the woman calling in From her teaching job at Edison might have more satisfaction at parents were actually required to do certain things. And one of the things that comes to mind is the tenth grade or the eighth grade testing. That's now being required. I wonder if there wouldn't be more parental involvement in the school's If the parents were required to pass those verbal and math tests at the eighth grade what the errand sarna put the parents on the spot. Yeah. So if their children are being asked to pass those tests, let's see if the parents can pass them to If the parents can't pass those tests in a way. I think we're just asking for frustrated teachers if they if the kids can't get the support at home. But thank you. I'll hang up and listen. This is Christine Jacks. You know, I really do appreciate what he's saying about mandating parents support, you know, there are days that I kind of feel the same way. But but clearly that's not what this Administration is looking for. This Administration does not support those types of mandates or that the long arm of government or the law. There are ways that we can continue to get this dialog out there and as your caller said inspire people and keep pushing people and and and kind of encourage the schools and keep nagging the schools to reach out to the parents. Hmm Tracy your comment please how committed is the governor to the special ed programs and specifically programs for the gifted children and I'll take my comments offline. The governor is very committed to the special education. There's a 97 million dollar increase for Educational Funding helping to relieve the pressure that's on the school district's General operating budget. And there's that include money for the talented and gifted as well as that there is no new money being added for the gifted on the on top of the current base, but there is money going back into the the per pupil formula and I think that it's important to keep mentioning that because that's Again part of the local control. The districts are free to use the money as they see fit and if they traditionally have not been supporting their gifted and talented areas. So the way they need to or the way their Community wants them to this is an opportunity for them to have more money to do that representative Seagram Senator Pogo Miller is there I guess a couple of questions here. Number one is that 97 million for special ed enough to take care of the problem that we've heard about repeatedly that school districts have had to move so much money from kind of the general education budget to special ed that will this take care of that that (00:23:28) problem It will not basically his 97 million is 50 million a year. The problem is 200 million a year and so he has not provided enough Revenue there to eliminate the cross subsidy from special education and general education. (00:23:45) Do you think do you folks (00:23:47) think for general education special education? I (00:23:49) said I backwards are do you folks think that some kind of special appropriation is called for to increase monies for gifted and talented programs. (00:23:59) Well last year in the house in the year before we did set aside some money from the formula that would was supposed to be reserved for gifted and talented programs years ago. We used to have a categorical funding for gifted and talented and then we decided that local districts could decide if they wanted to give more or less to gifted and talented programs. And so we took away that categorical we tried to I think make an attempt to re-establish that and over the last couple of years and sequester some money for that. That process and it started out as a grant with a match and then we eliminated that and just so we'll just give you flat-out you reserve five dollars for gifted and talented programs that's been an issue that's gone back and forth over the years in the legislature. I think that local districts should decide how they want to spend their money. Although I think that the gifted programs do take a backseat a lot of times to other programs because people assume because a child is bright that they can get along just fine. But I think we do have an obligation to all of our kids to educate them and a lot of times those very children that are gifted do not get stretched as much as they possibly could and learn as much as they possibly could because we're focusing on you know, the average child or the child with special needs. So I think in a lot of way they are ways they are neglected, but I do believe in local control to and I think the parents need to be very vocal about that and and be insistent that districts help out in that (00:25:26) area Gary there this is No, Jack's there is $43 per pupil that the districts have in their Grant standard money that is available for them to use for gifted and talented as well as staff development and technology (00:25:44) and grief. I would like to make an additional comment on the special education area the the caseload have gone up dramatically in the last decade for special education teachers particularly with the students most difficult to deal with and I think we're having a significant problem where teachers are special education teachers are being put in an environment where they cannot succeed they have too many children ranges from 20 to 40 children and it used to be a decade or so ago that we were at 15 for some of these very difficult challenging children at difficult job challenging children, and I think so the scope of the special ed problem is the 200 million cross subsidy from General Ed in Addition, I believe the figure is about 60 million. That would be necessary to keep by those clay caseloads down to where they need to be to to allow teachers to be successful. So the problem is about a 260 million dollar-a-year problem. And the governor has put in about 50 million dollars. (00:26:45) Let's take a short break here catch up on some news headlines and then we'll continue our conversation. We're focusing this hour on the governor's education proposals contained in the budget that he released yesterday K-12 education secondary and Elementary education in the state of Minnesota. One of the areas that is up significantly in Governor. Ventura has state budget. If you like to join our conversation, six, five, one two, two seven six thousand outside the Twin Cities one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight our guests this our state senator Larry Hogan Miller and state representative Alice Seagram. They are the chairs of the Senate and House K-12 education Finance committee's Christine. Jax is with us. She is the commissioner of the Department of Even families and learning right now some news headlines from Greta Cunningham (00:27:32) Greta. Good afternoon. Gary President Clinton says United States and its allies are ready to act if the serbs don't agree to resolve the Kosovo conflict. NATO is threatening to use Force if negotiations. Next month don't work America, Russia and several NATO allies announced a new plan to end the Bloodshed in Kosovo and give it autonomy President Clinton has unveiled plans for a big boost in spending on housing in a speech to America's mayor's the President says he wants to increase the budget for the Department of Housing and Urban Development by two and a half billion dollars. The president's Urban agenda also includes money for fighting homelessness and crime a federal appeals court is letting the public see the video of government lawyers questioning the Microsoft chairman Bill Gates government lawyers have already played about eight hours of Bill Gates questioning during the Microsoft antitrust trial. There are 12 more hours of tape in Regional news. Governor. Ventura says, he doesn't necessarily have a concealed weapon. He simply has a license to carry one then Or says anyone who wants to know why he thinks he needs a handgun permit should look at the murders of John Lennon and John Kennedy. Governor says, he's not trying to send any message about handgun permits to anybody else. But as the head of the public safety department and the National Guard he feels he's qualified for One Mentor supports legislative efforts to streamline the process of obtaining handgun permits. Just two days after the Minnesota Orchestra one preliminary approval to build an outdoor Amphitheater in Brooklyn Park a New York company announced plans for an outdoor Amphitheater near Shakopee Q Prime says, it paid more than 1 million dollars for a 100-acre sandpit site south of the Renaissance Festival. The company said it would begin an environmental study of the property in Scott County and holds its initial public hearings in February earlier in the week. The Brooklyn Park City Council gave preliminary approval to the Minnesota Orchestra has 20 million dollar proposal to build an Amphitheater. The theater could be open as early as next year around the region at this hour. Mostly sunny skies reported in Duluth report sunshine and 26 St. Cloud sunny skies and 21 It's sunny in Fargo and 21 and in the Twin Cities Sunshine a temperature of 28 and Gary. That's a look at the latest (00:29:34) news. Thank you Greta. It is 24 minutes. Now before one o'clock. We are talking this our a midday about the governor's K-12 education budget proposals released yesterday joining us by phone Christine Jack. She's the commissioner of children families and learning joining us from the state capital state representative Alice egret and state. Senator. Larry Hogan Miller. They are the chairs of the House and Senate K-12 education finance committee's and again, let me give you the phone number here. If you'd like to join our conversation, you might want to wait for a minute or two while some of the lines clear six five. One two, two seven six thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight as we try to find out specifically what the governor has in mind and just how that might play out in the classroom Carolyn. You're next. Yes. I'm happy about smaller classroom sizes in the Elementary grades, but I think this is back. Bypassing the least what I see is the major dissatisfaction in my community and that is the amount of money. We're spending on the profiles of learning and mounds. I'm from the Mounds View School District and I would say that there are a large number of people in the school district that feel that the profiles are locking us into a system that is not as challenging as what we had before and specifically we've had a lot in the news about a math curriculum that we had to get rid of in order to put in a new integrated math curriculum. And then we were given a choice on that for the high school level, but I hear people saying I don't want to spend any money on education until we get this curriculum situation worked out what is going to happen with the profile of learning again, for those of you who aren't familiar with all the jargon and the rest. This is the second. Part of the new graduation standards. You have your basic skills test and then you have this profile of learning which is designed to help students with more advanced work and a lot of people charge that it's too bureaucratic and his dumb down the curriculum. Well Gary, this is this is Christine Jack's Carolyn and I may actually have children in the same classrooms. My students. My children are in the Mound City School District, and I also was dismayed to find out if I got the information correct from my daughter that the integrated math program that she just finished is going to be worthless and that she has to start all over I'm very concerned about that as a parent and ask the commissioner of Education. We're looking into these things. This is Anna do this is a new Administration that came in were concerned with some of the things that we've seen But the governor is committed to high standards and we're committed to the profile of learning as a concept, but we clearly are getting the message and listening that there have been some problems and we're going to look at Those problems are and we're going to look at them while we're listening to the teachers and the parents and the students find out what's wrong and start looking at methods to fix the situation representative segrin house. What's the thinking in the house right now is to what's going to happen? (00:32:43) Well, Gary is you know, we've already had two hearings on the profile. We've had a couple of bills introduced one to eliminate the profile and one to scale it back dramatically. We've also had a hearing were over 500 people attended not all of them got to speak but we had over five and a half hours of testimony both pro and con on the profile and there is a great deal of concern out in the public and the house is going to try to address those concerns as commissioner. Jack said the house is committed to high standards and moving towards those and looking at the system that has been created and making sure that we're not creating a bureaucratic nightmare, but that we are creating something that is going to help our children succeed and compete in You know certainly a global way but we don't want to create something that's going to end up harming children are eliminating successful curriculum that in the past has really helped children Excel (00:33:41) sounds like it's kind of up in the air yet as to what's going to happen. (00:33:44) Yes. I think we're in the process of examining it and I think there will probably be another few weeks before we make any decisions on it. So under program Miller. Well, I think there's agreement between the executive branch and the house and the Senate that we're not going to back off high standards. Most of the issues that are being raised around the state are implementation issues. And those are legitimate anytime you're dealing with fifty thousand teachers 350 school districts 800 900 thousand students the there will be miscommunications misunderstandings of fits and starts and implementation. And I think we're all going to work together in a bipartisan legislative executive branch with the education Community to clear up misunderstandings and to try to eat. Implementation but I my sense is that there is a fundamental try partisan political commitment to maintaining the high standards David your question. (00:34:38) Hello. Hi. I think this has relevance for the subject here discussing their I was alarmed this morning when I read in the st. Paul Pioneer Press article on page 4A. That in a survey of 3600 kindergarten through 12 teachers Nationwide four out of five teachers say they are not well prepared to teach in today's classrooms thirty percent thirty percent say they don't have degrees in the subjects. They teach or didn't spend enough time training in them and the statistics are alarming statistics to me go go on from there. I'm wondering How much good this appropriation for K-12 education is going to do to to do if teachers feel that inadequate and what is going to be done to to do some staff development to assist them rather than build stadiums. May we could try to help teachers? Well think anybody's building a stadium Rock but there is a question of what to do to help teachers get their skills up and for that matter get more teachers. What's what's in the budget here that addresses that issue? Well, this is commissioner Jack's David brings up a point about what's happening nationally and and I do want to say that the teachers that we have in Minnesota are wonderful and by and large come in well prepared and our agency works very closely. Flee with the secondary institutions to make sure that they're the higher education institutions to make sure that we are collaborating and making the having a match between what the teachers are learning when they come out of college compared to what we need them to have to teach our students to the high standards and districts have to use at least one percent of their basic revenue for staff development. (00:36:49) I'd like to jump in a little bit too. I think there's a couple of issues David sided a national study. I think that our teachers are probably being trained well in the subject areas when they're going through college, but one of the things that we hear a lot from new teachers is that when they're kind of even though they have some student teaching it's not enough that first year of teaching to really just they get thrown into a classroom with not a lot of support and that is cause for great concern the other issue would be The ongoing training and keeping your skills up and also sometimes and especially in small districts where you don't have a lot of teachers you may have to request a teacher to teach a science course that they really have had no training in because there's literally nobody to hire to do that or your your pupils change and the demands change for the course works coursework that you're offering so there are some of those Dynamics going on but I think for the future we are really going to have to look at what's happening with the shortages of teachers. If you're looking at math and science and special education. Those are the three areas where we I think have some great shortages. We I think we're going to have to look at different salary structures and incentives for teachers because if we have to compete with the private sector for someone who can go out and get a degree or get a degree in science and then go out and get hired at a fifty thousand dollar level and a beginning teacher. Valerie is twenty eight to thirty thousand dollars were not going to continue to attract the kind of qualified people and if we keep with the same old salary structure, it restricts the ability of school districts management to attract the kind of people they need in the flexibility they need so I think those are going to be ongoing discussions that we need to look at in in preparing teachers and in in hiring teachers. I think there's kind of a two-fold dilemma going on there Senator Palmer (00:38:54) was going to ask you about that Saratoga Miller. I was reading this morning that the assumption is that most of the increase in that basic per pupil formula that all the schools get most of that increase will be used up with teacher salaries, right? Is that true? (00:39:09) That's been the historical Trend. Yes. And I think the problem I first I want to Echo the comments that represent of Seeger and made she's right on and we have the the issue that Dave has raised is one that we have been aware of have been working on Senator Pappas and Senator whiner in the Senate are working on a subcommittee between higher ed and K12 to address those issues. We have a problem and it's frustrating teachers and it's obviously frustrating students, but I think what's important for Menace, I believe we need to come to a basic conclusion Minnesota that will not go down easy. We are clearly under pain in the area of education for the type of people we need to do the difficult task that's being asked to do particularly in rural Minnesota in the coming decade or two. If we are not able to bid up price or salary for teachers. We will not attract the quality of people we need now, I know It's probably not real popular for me to say because that means additional investment in the system, but it seems to me that is a reality. We see it in the special education area right now where people are leaving the field because they have too high of caseloads and are underprepared to do what they have to do in the math and sciences were starting to see shortages because those people get snapped up by the private sector with significantly higher salaries and benefits and it's not a pleasant thing for us to confront. But if we truly do care about the future of Education of our children, we have to address that we will have to compensate. Faculty in many instances significantly better than we are today. Well Gary, I think too just to to tap into that or follow up with that. I think not only I think that management needs the flexibility to have different salaries for four different people. You may have an elementary teacher that it because of the numbers of elementary teachers and the pool and competition. You may only need to hire them for 30,000. But because of a shortage of math and science teachers, you may have to start them at a higher level and I think that is one of the things that we're going to be willing to have to talk about openly in a dress because if we don't and if we continue on everybody starts at the same level at the same time regardless of demand we're going to have the problem that Senator poking Miller says and in the rural area, that's very true to I mean they I think are going to need some flexibility and some Art in just even making sure that they can attract teachers out to the rural areas. Same thing. I think for the urban area. I think that you will see teachers that will tend to want to teach a less challenging students. Let's say and there's going to have to be some flexibility and being able to attract and keep and I think the key is to keep people in the profession once they're there to (00:42:15) make sure Jack's any word from the governor and the early indications from the governor as to a whether he's willing to increase education funding quite a bit more yet to pay teachers more money and then also to introduce this fight the Battle of trying to get the teachers paid at different different levels depending on their skills the governor and I have not had that discussion. I think that Senator pogan Miller and representative Seagram bring up some very important points that we do have to keep an eye on and watch very closely and this Possibly be something that the governor and I will need to address and look at in the future James your question. Please actually have a couple of the first is pretty basic. I think I attended a public high school. And while I was there we didn't have enough textbooks in our classroom for everyone to take textbooks home to read homework assignments. And to me I think that seems like a real basic shortcoming in that the public high school I went to and I wonder if Professor Jax could tell me if she agreed with my assessment that that's a basic educational need for students to have textbooks. And I wonder if she is aware of the situation do students have textbooks in Minneapolis public schools these days and the second question is about this personal responsibility Mantra now, I don't I've never heard anyone stand up and say I'm against personal responsibility. It's not the kind of thing that happens everyone agrees that it's essential for parents to take responsibility for their children's education and that's important. But what's to become of the children of parents who do not put the time and energy into their children's education that is needed. Do we just write them off or is it you know, or is it up to these five and six? Old to take personal responsibility for their education or else risk not being viable members of our society. All right, and what's education's role to reach these kids and their parents if we cannot reach them What Becomes of them when they grow up? Okay. Thanks James. I mean change the nature of the first part of the question a little bit. Is there enough money now in this budget so that all the kids will have textbooks and that we will no longer hear stories about teachers having to buy their own supplies Gary this these are issues of local control and local decision making the money is there's money in the per pupil formula. We're trying to relieve with a special education increase pressure on the school district General operating budget and how they spend their money. It's a decision that they need to make and they need to be accountable to their community and the people who like their school board and and the people who send their children to their schools. I do want to add that. I am I'm not intimately familiar with this area and I don't assume your collar is talking about children who need to have textbooks and that that's what the teacher is teaching out of I think there are other ways that we could also reach children. You know, I'm thinking about some of the technology that the students have but if he's talking about students who don't have that at home that would entertain here but it's local control and Gary do want me to go on and answer about the personal responsibility. Yeah. What do you do for the kids whose parents really don't give a hoot well. You know, I have I haven't met a lot of parents who don't care, you know, there are a lot of parents. I've worked with parents who are in severe poverty and they get distracted by other things. And yes, there are parents who are cracked up but parents care to the best of their ability and I think one of the ways we're trying to reach this our through the through the school lunch or School breakfast. I'm sorry the Six Million on a sliding fee breakfast programs that the governor is proposing in the budget that not only provides the students with some food, but also provides a student an earlier place to go to start the day and to be in a safe and productive environment. And also there's money for million to add to the learning year and districts could add to the school day the school week or the school year and and those are times where the you know quite frankly the school can pick up for the slack of what the parents are not providing Saratoga Miller representative Seagram from your perspective. Is there any reason now? After assuming that the governor's budget is passed more or less as proposed any reason from here on out that teachers should have to be buying their own supplies or that students should have to go home without a (00:46:47) textbook. Well, I think even in spite of our because of the general education formula increase I still will probably not be surprised that we will still hear that there is not enough money for textbooks are not enough money for teachers to so that they won't have to buy their own supplies. I think that you're always going to have issues of need that no matter how much money we give there will always be something there that is not covered. So as commissioner Jack's that I think that part of that is is giving money to the district's, you know, as much as we can possibly do in a reasonable Manner and let districts decide locally what they want to do. (00:47:35) Thunder polka Miller (00:47:37) Gary I think was a week or so ago. I was with you and we talked about this setting the price asking school districts how much money they need to do all this stuff and we need to untangle this because it's just a constant mantra. and we already spend twelve billion dollars every two years. And so if a taxpayer says will is 12 billion enough to educate 900,000 students. I personally and I'm a Democrat here. I personally find it hard to explain why that's not enough. And so I I'm not sure in all instances. It's a question of more Revenue. I personally believe it's a question of current allocation allocation of current spending. That's at issue here and Governor Ventura has his thoughts on making sure the money gets spent the way he wants it to get spent and apparently feels that the efforts that have been put in by a previous Governors and legislators haven't been successful. So we're we are listening closely to his approach to accountability and want to work with him on that and that's why I mentioned at the beginning of the show. We will know two years from now whether Governor Ventura is Is and ideas on accountability make any more sense than Governor Carlson's or Governor purposes or all the previous education Governor's we've had hmm. (00:49:05) We have very little time left. But let's see if we can get one more caller on here quickly Earnest quick question, please yes appertaining to classrooms to get the class size down to 17 and st. Paul course, we have the problem of the churches and government using of so much property. And so we don't have the property tax to do it. Will they be state revenue bonds to provide for these classrooms. I know administrator told me that told a group of us that a budget committee mean that the best way of handling today is when they have classes at a hold 34 kids assigned to teachers or two adults and we're just have classes rooms are only hold about 25 teachers 25 students that mean then they assigned three teachers to cover the two rooms or three adults. Is there any money at all commissioner in the budget for additional classroom? Instruction, you know? Yes, there is some money to help with the levy, you know, I don't have all the financial details. It's about 14 million to help with the capital Levy. Senator Colgan Miller representative segrin any money in the budget or any change in the current law about the tax credits and the tax deductions. That was the centerpiece of the Carlson administration's education approach is that remain the same at least in the first years of the Ventura (00:50:32) Administration? Well, I think you'd have to ask him is Jack's if he's going to do any change on the tax credit (00:50:41) commissioner. I think that you know the answer to that we're not aware of any change. Okay, so that should remain the (00:50:47) same. Well, it may remain the same or it may not there may be some things that we are interested in doing. I know I've heard from people that would like to have an increased amount added for computers because I think it's a 200 dollar cap and people that buy computer. It's probably more realistic to maybe have a 500 dollar cap. Another issue is the kind of Feathering of the credit right now if you make I think 33:5 if you make 30 3501 you kind of fall off of the cliff and I think that a lot of tax policy when you're there's a credit they do have kind of a tapering down effect. So we may look at something like that. Hmm. I'm not aware in the Senate of any proposals to With it at all. That doesn't mean we're going to be here another couple months. So maybe something will come up Jen the general attitude and I think in the Senate is you know, that was governor Carlson's Cornerstone and we ought to just let it be there for a while and see how it does but (00:51:51) folks were out of time but I sure appreciate your joining us and I know we'll hear a lot more about this is the legislative session goes on. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you education commissioner Christine Jack's the commissioner of children families and learning and joining us from the state capitol to key legislators working in education policy. Alyce Caron and Larry Pulga Miller. I'm is sea Grant is the chair of the house K-12 education finance committee. Larry Pulga Miller is the state senate chair of the Senate's K-12 education finance committee. If you missed part of the conversation, by the way on education funding and the event or a budget will be re broadcasting this program at nine o'clock tonight here in Minnesota Public Radio. Also, lots more. Budget information available on the website on our website at MP r dot org and a reminder Monday night at 7 o'clock will be at the Fitzgerald theater Governor. Ventura will be there legislative leaders Steve Swig. Mm. And Roger mole will be on hand and we'll be talking about lots of many many of the aspects of the Ventura budget and what legislators would like to see as Alternatives we have a seat reserved for you. If you'd like to show up tickets are available. They're free tickets available at the Fitzgerald box office, Mississippi Market or the wedge Co-op. That's it for midday today Gary eichten here. We had help from John Bischoff, Eric Janssen Rob's in ski Sarah Mayer is the producer of midday (00:53:18) on the next All Things Considered will have in-depth analysis of Governor Ventura has budget from tax cuts to Tobacco money to Transit listen for