Association the national mediation board must decide if there's a sufficient basis for further investigation of the I am's complaint northern states power says it's reviewing a federal complaint against the utility files by its Wisconsin counterpart milwaukee-based Wisconsin electric power company has filed a complaint with Federal Regulators accusing nspf repeatedly denying access to power during shortages and violation of federal rules. The Attorney General's office today released its annual Thanksgiving Charities report includes 20 commonly asked questions about organizations that solicit contributions of Minnesota the AG's office as people can use the information to help determine which Charities make the best use of the money. They donate Assistant Attorney General Charles Waikele. It says people can call the AG's office with questions or seek help online.Well, we get the most inquiries about those 20 organizations. We actually got 4500 registered and through the internet you can get access to information about all 4500 forecast for the state today. Mostly sunny and Breezy and Southern Minnesota partly cloudy in northern Minnesota, and I should range from 38th near Duluth to 55 near Rochester. That's the news from Minnesota Public Radio on Kathleen. Hallinan Kathleen 6 minutes past 11. This is a test of the emergency alert system.Today's programming is made possible in part by The Advocates of Minnesota Public Radio contributors include the McKnight Foundation working to strengthen families and communities and Kare 11 news the news handled with care.And good morning. Welcome to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary. I can glad you could join us former US House speaker Jim Wright and outgoing house Speaker Newt Gingrich do not have a lot in common in fat Gingrich is often blamed or credited with forcing right to resign from the Congress friends. They aren't but they do agree on at least one thing house members. They say are wallowing in self-destructive political cannibalism an atmosphere that replaces the old Rules of Civility and compromise with nasty ugly and very personal inter and intra party fighting.Critics say this lack of Civility is taking a heavy toll they argue that it hurts policy-making repels. Otherwise good candidates for Congress and alienates the berry citizens the politicians claim. They're trying to represent today. We're going to focus on what's happened in Washington Y and try to find out whether in fact it is affecting congress's ability to the do do the nation's business joining us. Today is former Minnesota Republican Congressman Ben Weber who was one of Newt gingrich's closest allies has had a ringside seat on what's been going on in Washington these last 15-20 years to Weber is also featured prominently in an article in this week's New Yorker on this very subject. It's called the town that ate itself and we invite you to join our conversation as well. Give us a call Twin City area number is 227-6002 276 thousand. I'll try the Twin Cities 1-800 242-282-8227 6000 or 1 800 242.2828 civility or the lack thereof in the US Congress. That's our subject the sour and whoever thanks for joining us Congress changed all that much as I recall in the old days. They used to beat each other with canes in Congress the past a lot and then there's always been very tough political debates in the Congress and you're right back in the nineteenth Century people pulled knives and beat each other and there were there were there were there has always been a tough side to this but I do think at least in the modern era there is Beni a change in the tone and the standards of this house. Just let's say over the last 30 or 40 years. I have to take a broad. Timing at it and it is a less civil place. It's a less desirable place to work and it's harder to achieve bipartisanship. There are some reasons for that.Some of them valid and some of them less valid but but I don't think there's much doubt that atmosphere in the Congress United States is much much more negative than it was a few years ago. Even now bottom line. Is this something that the average person out of worried about that. They're not serving in the Congress. So they don't have to put up with these slings and arrows. Are we still getting good public policy out of the congress not the doing a lot of innovating right. Now. I'm Congress is managing. It's the business of the federal government reasonably effectively, but there hasn't been a whole lot of innovation to come out of a Washington of the great accomplishment of the last several years. I think most people would probably say is the balancing of the federal budget, but I really believe that that's got as much if not more to do with the health of the general economy of then with any specific set of decisions made by members of Congress or the president for that matter what might win this would matter. It seems to me Gary it isn'tName of Crisis if the economy were to really really take a hit that some people were predicting just you know, a couple months ago as a result of the Asian crisis or if we got into some serious International problem that those are times when you need to have the country have a lot of confidence in its leaders and you need to have those leaders able to work with one another and then that would be I think my biggest concern is we might find ourselves unable to react to a genuinely genuinely serious crisis. Why can't members of Congress work with each other? I'm really really hate each other. What what's what's what's at the bottom of this and a lot of individual members can work with each other. There are certainly lots of examples of of things getting done that could contradict sort of our whole story line today, butThere have been some things that have changed to start of poison the atmosphere of the 32nd television spots in particular than that the Advent of heavy-duty negative campaigning has caused people to be very gun-shy have some issues and the the decline in the Quorum in the house, which once was much higher it has led to a lot of very personal exchanges on the floor of the house and it it really has polarised things that I rather rather dramatically. I think one of these comments in that article that I referred to the New Yorker article that I found particularly intriguing was from a Brown University historian Gordon Wood who suggested that one of the problems is that politics has become so focused on fairly narrow legal issues that in many respects politics has been criminalized is thatAn accurate assessment always include trying to trip up your opponents on ethics issues campaign Finance issues things like that. And where would not by any means immune to that in Minnesota in some ways. Those are are the negative consequences of well-intentioned reforms, but they have had the effect of criminalizing politics to a substantial extant and and it's it's it's not that there was never any of this in the past but the as recently as beliefs when I got into politics which is little this less than 20 years ago. It was not a standard part of your campaign to a to have basically a legal strategy for trying to trip up your play it now is a standard part of most campaign to to sort of targets your opponent for some kind of an Ethics charged or lawsuit and and in essence.What they're doing is not to something you disagree with that something that is violating the locks and that's that's not helpful. We do. I have a new speaker coming in Mr. Livingston. Will he be able to take care of all of this and solve all these problems? I don't think that the problem is a result of any one person. I think there are a whole lot of fact or some of which we've talked about here already this morning and others of which we haven't put the Serta come together to make this a problem that no one speaker can solve surely my friend Newt Gingrich show whom I admire in many regards was none the less they highly polarizing figure and and his very presence in the house had a polarizing effect in and exacerbated. The problem is even talk about here today and and hand Spa Livingston who has a very different style and very different approach toward the relations of his colleagues and both sides of the I will have sort of a settling influence that in the post nudera, but they're still ourAn awful lot of things factors that are effectiveness of the way in which the news media covers campaigns for instance that are not going to change and that mean we have a lot of work to do to show to rebuild a bipartisan civility little enable the country to have the kind of confidence at all. They have in its institutions of government or talking to shower with former Minnesota Congressman Ben Weber about the atmosphere in the Congress lack of Civility According to some what the senator Joseph Biden refers to is Khmer Rouge politics. I am just how they have to is affecting public policy. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call. 227-6001 City area number to 276 thousand. I'll try the Twin Cities 1 800 to +422-828-227-6004 1 800-242-2828 before we get to our first caller. I'm wonderingBut now you have an opportunity to see up close to the Minnesota election campaign and governor elected Ventura made a real point of emphasizing his stance outside the traditional two-party system that he was not going to be a part of this sniping that goes on and people seem to react and respond well to do you think the same thing may be occurring at the federal level or could occur in the in the future princess know that we we have been talking a lot about the house leadership elections and speaker Livingston. The Senate is going to have only one leadership election on the Republican side. And that's for the chairman of the Republican senatorial Campaign Committee person is in charge of re-electing Republican Senators and electing new ones under Mitch McConnell from Kentucky is the incumbent and he drew an opponent yesterday Senator Chuck Hagel from Nebraska and in his announcement of Canada.Eagle really in a fairly unusual way. He said that one of the things he's going to see to do if he wins the postal campaign committee chairman is to cut down on or eliminate the negative attacks and I've never heard that articulated by somebody seeking a major leadership position and either party before I don't know if he's going to win or not. But but I think he's reflecting a at least of sense, but that's the way we ought to go now Chris and in the testing of this it sometimes falls apart you get people with a very best of intentions about keeping campaigns positive an issue-oriented and when it gets to the crunch time in the election if they're pollsters and media advisor say they've got to go negative most of them doBut I want to just the one with Gary it's not just negative. It's the manner in which you would there's nothing wrong with attacking your opponent's position on an issue as long as you do so honestly and and have some alternative your own it. It's the hype highly personalized nature of these attacks that really has changed the atmosphere and poison the atmosphere what accounts for why isn't it sufficient for somebody to say, you know old Harry over here nice guy and everything but but he's way off base on taxes, you know, instead of saying he's a bum members of the politicians running for office simply have to set a standard for themselves. I think if you talk about serious issues that the people care about those Consuela elections. And by the way, this is not a naive Pius position. I take a look at the two parties when they do talk with issues. The Republicans can get very tough talking about taxes. The Democrats could get very tough talking about social security.Those are not bean bag sentimentalized romanticized holier-than-thou positions. There can be very tough political debates, but they're on issues. They're not on the character of the candidates candidates background not on some trivial little issue that's blowing up to be to beat the look like something that it is and if it's based on real issues there can be real debate in the end and you can voters can make up their minds come in place from an outside observer in in politics. Is that the people in Washington and even at the state level are going to do what they want to do? What they feel is politically fast or the Inner Circle that they don't really go out to the street. Listen to the people that they end up listening to a a small.Fragment of the populace which our political followers and then they consider these people their constituents which really isn't and I think the election Minnesota with an example of that the constituents that's the people to go out and work a 10 hours a day and get their hands dirty want something different than Washington is offering and I think the next election will probably be a greater example than what we had here in Minnesota. I wouldn't I wouldn't doubt that. You're right about that first things can change but one of the things we see these days is course. Minnesota was a fairly extreme example, but across the country at the state level of Voters seem to be more pleased with their candidates for Governor than they were certainly with the candidates for the United States Congress in Washington, Washington in a bipartisan way has been rather discredited and people have a lot more confidence in the elected officials at the state and local level than they then they used to and I do think the Minnesota election. It has something to say to to voters to to politicians across the country and I I don't know the answer to all this and I suppose no one person that you have to think about the fact you what the what the color just said that we have seen declining voter participation rates in in the country for a long long time. So as he said, you know Smaller group of people that have come to be almost an inside group while the majority voters don't participate off that did change in Minnesota this year. And you know, I was for my candidate Norm Coleman who I thought was an excellent candidate, but you got to give Jesse Ventura Credit. He spoke to a lot of people that would otherwise probably have stayed out of the process all together. Politicians are members of the house obviously are interested in appealing to a broad group of people so that I can get elected but in terms of their actual responsiveness, mr. Weber, who do they who do they respond to just that narrow group that Louis is talking about I suppose we could call them the special interest the lobbyists the the hardcore supporters or are they primarily interested in actually representing the average Joe and Jane I think most people in government very much want to represent the majority of the people if that's a little easier said than done though. There is a burden on the people to let the people in the office know what it is they want and how they feel about things. You're you're right Gary. There's a special interests quote on quote the do make their presence felt in and do get attention in Washington to remember a lot of those special interests are not just big powerful corporations or anyting. I got their associations that represent lots and lots of average. Farm organizations that represent farmers and small business organizations that represent small business people and teachers organizations that represent teacher does a powerful special interest groups at least purport to speak for a lot of Americans and if they're not speaking for a lot of Americans that's that's a part of the problem that you can't blame entirely at least on the politician. Kirk here. I come in please. I'm wondering what the impact has been of the judicial activism in the past half-century, which is limited or even in some cases usurped Powers legislative branch. Some people compare the Supreme Court to well even an unlikely Punta that has taken away the decisions. Because of their activism from the elective elected members of the United States government and that is radicalized Korean the thumb the debate in the legislative branch and destroyed ability of the people in the house and the Senate to make policy decisions for the country and I'm thinking in particular well as many cases but one case in particular is Roe versus Wade was toy limited the debate in and among the representatives of the American people because the Supreme Court stomped out any possibility of debate on that subject. I agree with you know, I suppose people that are on other side of those issues or disagree with this lot of examples of that the abortion decision that you mentioned. Roe versus Wade has won the school prayer decision, which preceded is another maybe when you might not have thought of campaign Finance reform law wearing Buckley Valeo where the cork basically restricted the ability of elected officials to determine what kind of campaign Finance laws we can write in all these cases in a lot more. Think about you're exactly right there cuz of Courts haven't made it impossible for the political process and legislative bodies to do what they're supposed to do which is to start to come to a consensus or a compromise on these very thorny issues instead of people that there is no incentive for anybody to take other than a very polarizing position on any of those issues and voters who try to express themselves are frustrated because they they think that they've elected people who believe in what they believe in and you find us nothing can be done because the courts are taking jurisdiction away from our elected officials. I know some good constitutional lawyer could call us up and say well you're ignoring the Constitutional issues that are involved here. I'm not a lawyer but I do know that the impact in the political process is precisely as the caller indicated it is when you take sensitive issues repeatedly out of the legislative process and decide him by judicial Fiat that's not good for people's confidence in government. Kind of a related issue I suppose in that is the role of a political party's so it was argued in the New Yorker article that I mentioned earlier Target that political parties used to be concerned with building broad coalition to one degree or another and overtime. They have become more interested in ideologies. Is that true? I think that that's true. I think there's another component to it that I that I talk what I think we have weakened political parties fairly dramatically with one of the campaign Finance reforms and other measures that we passed recently and what replaced the parties have been this back to an earlier question a series of single issue groups and it's not because they're bad people. It's just because that's what the system really dictated by campaign Finance laws has has let us doing so instead of having a politician essentially have to deal with his political party. Which as you pointed out used to be very broad-based group of people, you know is much much more interested in dealing with that set of special interest groups that are most instrumental in getting him or her elected in a given election. There's not a perfect solution to all this are parties of course can be subject to abuse has to but I think the thrust of your question is Right On Target, I think parties at their best do reflect a broader range of thing and they filter to an extent special interest demands on government because the party always has an interest in putting together at least a 51% Coalition where has a special interest group has no interest interest like that. They want to Simply Prevail on their issues and that's what's happened to our parties. We eat. We will the parties are are weaker and because they are weaker they are there ironically enough more polarized and more ideologically rigid. We seem here in Minnesota at least be moving toward more major parties. They're going to be four of them. Now officially recognized by the state of Minnesota people argue. That that may be a good thing. Well, you know for sure we have a history of that in the Upper Midwest, you know, this is our part of the country has historically been the part where third or independent party movements have been the strongest the farm Labour party in Minnesota to the nonpartisan league in North Dakota the Progressive Party in Wisconsin. These were major parties in the when Teddy Roosevelt ran for president on the bull moose ticket has has a third-party candidate. He carried our part of the country earlier in this Century. So that's that's our tradition whether or not it's a it's a good or bad long-term effect. I have to say I still believe in the basic health and stability of a system based on two political parties, but I also understand fully well that third and independent party. Play a very important role in the major parties become unresponsive if that is indeed what's happened in Minnesota, and I'm a republican. So I'd like to not believe that's the case. But if it is then then that explains a lot of why the reform party has been successful and taxpayers party got on the ballot and the one has to assume that eventually they will achieve their goals by impacting on either or both of the major parties, but maybe we're going to answer a new era of multi-party democracy. I don't know Rodger thing. Sometimes you got to give up on it take the example of Gingrich a leading the fight to permit the our heroic president to go into a war situation. He calls a peacekeeping. Pardon me. I made a mistake there. Whatever you want to do as long as he's certified that it is in the interest of National Security and then back in 1988 during the campaign. There was real good bipartisanship Dukakis in the end. The end Bush. Neither of them said a word about the SNL it was building up but they didn't say a word it all came out afterwards. So you're at your I can't we be better off if the parties had been fighting about those issues and gotten them out into the open. Absolutely it horrifies me last spring maybe a little earlier. If it is if it went into effect, it would got the Tenth Amendment which says that specific Powers not delegated to the federal government will be reserved to the states and to the people while about a month ago. The Congress said that you can't do that and now Wants to talk about it before he didn't talk to anyone in Congress comments, please. Will you raise the range of issues and I'm not I'm not familiar with all them. I'll go back to Executive or initial play at least is one that I think you have to have some sympathy with. This is a tricky subject because I don't want to suggest that that good strong partisan debate is wrong. That's not the point that I'm trying to make in the collar made a very good point which is the party's at times can cozy up to each other and then the name of bipartisanship Simply hide some of their own misdeeds. There's no question that that that happened to the people should be infuriated by it when it does but overall for the functioning of our government. I would argue that the climate in which these campaigns in debates takes place has deteriorated and has caused more harm than good. Do the house members especially when they when they get particularly personal in their attacks? Do they actually have to look at the other person when they make these attacks? Parking at yeah sure. They're on their own V. Everybody's on the floor. They they have to they have to look at each other. But I'll tell you one thing that that it in my view has changed their house of the Senate really rarely have genuine debate anymore. But they have is a series of Separate Peace speeches and in a congressman X is prepared to speech on a particular topic and he gets up and gives it then Congers NY from the other side of the aisle gets up and does the same thing but in terms of genuinely engaging each other responding to one another's arguments and really talking to each other on the floor that happens very very very little a Time some of the old-timers that I've talked to say that that is a change that used to be a lot more genuine given take it also makes it easier to sort of do hit-and-run attacks on one another if you're not going to expect that your opponent actually engage you you can say anybody want to We're taking a shower with former, Minnesota Congressman Vin Weber about the atmosphere in Washington and the Congress fairly uncivil these days and how that is affecting the making of public policy. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call to 276 thousands are Twin City area number to 276 thousand. I'll try the Twin Cities one 802-422-8280 gets more collars in just a moment. I'm learning Benson on the next All Things Considered will revisit a debate that waged on for 100 years in Western, Minnesota. Play right there that everybody is talking about a 200 pound piece of rock is the Kensington runestone authentic that story plus all the day's news on all things considered weekdays at 3 on Minnesota Public Radio k n o w FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities. By the way, we hope you'll be able to join us for the second hour of our midday program today over the noon hour. We're going to be joined by Minnesota's new lieutenant. Governor elect May Shunk who has been designated as administrator Sands Point person on education. She'll be here to talk about being lieutenant governor what it was like being a pic to be the running mate and then actually getting elected and her ideas and education. So we'll get to that over the noon hour the weather forecast really couldn't be nicer for this time of the year. Basically partly cloudy today with eyes upper thirties in the north the mid-50s in the South tomorrow Thanksgiving Day partly cloudy with highs low forties to near 60° should be mild and dry on Friday, maybe a little precipitation over the weekend but temperature still very very mild Twin Cities sunny and Breezy with high today in the mid-50s tonight clear with a low around Thirty tomorrow Thanksgiving Day partly cloudy with a high in the mid. 50s right now, it's 50 degrees and sunny in the Twin City area Elsewhere on the area. St. Cloud sunny and 47 Rochester sunny and 48 Duluth sunny and 43 Fargo with a sunny Sky 38 and Sioux Falls sunny and 48 degrees again in the Twin Cities. It's 50 and it's sunny or Minnesota Congressman Republican Congressman. Ben Weber joins us this hour were talking about this is about civility or the lack thereof in the Congress and how that is affecting the doing of the Public's business, and if you'd like to join our conversation to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one 802-422-8280 before we get back to our collars at mr. Weber at you mentioned earlier that A fair number of these Fair number these problems have Arisen because of reforms Gone Gone awry unintended consequences of campaign Finance reforms in the like have we learned enough now to avoid the law of unintended consequences in the future so that the listeners are aware. We were talking about the Watergate reforms passed in the mid-1970s among other things restricted political parties ability to give money to candidates in established the laws to set up political action committees. Well today, we consider political action committees. The problem is he's encourage the formation of more and narrower interest groups dominated really play a bigger role in political parties doing financing our campaigns. That's one of the laws of unintended consequence, but I'm not sure that we're right about I for instance want to say something that It's not very popular these days, but for the campaign Finance reform that we're pursuing now, everybody seems agreed on one thing which is we're going to get rid of so-called soft money. Well soft money is money donated by corporations and unions and other folks two political parties. So maybe this is a good thing but I can tell you one thing for sure it's going to do is we can play pool parties further. I'm not happy with that myself because I think stronger parties as opposed to Stronger interest groups is a is a realistic and important reform the system. So I'm not at all sure that we we know, what's what would what we're doing in that regard Bob your next. I just wanted to say right at the outset the how lucky we are in Minnesota to have for Tim penny in the VIN Weber doing what they're doing. Thank you all the time to put some comedy end of these discussions at 10. Then it a little bit difficult. One of the things that I was thinking of in my wife reminds me of it once in a while because I fall into Trap Gingrich and get part both could learn from what Webster once said that the first sign of anger. You've lost the argument. And both of those individuals are always in your face. And even when you look at them before they even say anyting you that you have an antagonistic feelings toward the whatever they're about to say and sometimes our arguments on both sides are very well-thought-out and very reason but they come through in such a fashion that are always angry. So they've lost the argument before they begin the only thing that you haven't touched on too much the impact of a bond, you're an army that you're too cute lieutenants to your part and the and the Gingrich find your was given the task buy a part to get Gingrich and he had one person on his staff full-time doing nothing but investigating and that's the sort of You know Ultra partisanship, that's a pretty good indication where we're at in harmony is always in your face and it is unfortunate. I think the Democrats would be well off to get rid of Gap art and find your and we'd be well-off in the Republican side to get rid of her me and start having some more decent the dialogue without all the flame-throwing that goes on today and Weber. Devon your episode really is indicative of one of the problems we've had he of course has the caller indicated wage war on Gingrich ethics war and of course the other side would quickly point out as find your dad that that's exactly what language did to speak write several years before but there has been a steady escalation of this I can make a distinction between the two cuz I actually was there one distinction was with when the gang groups did what he did to write and I'm not by the way to finding that I argued with him about it. I did not think targeting the speaker or any individual member was a good thing to do but he did it all by himself. And then when buying your did it became function of the entire Democrat Party, they discuss their leadership Circle in Guilford basically blessed. It's always been a regular escalation of this use of Ethics as a tool of of the majority or the minority one can hope that that Maybe a positive side effect of Gingrich leaving. Now the Congress of the United States what you all doing in January. I don't I'm not aware of either party having plans to do that. I'm although as soon as the opportunity arises, you know, the Temptations going to be right there. I left extract. I have thought for some time. They needed to reform the house ethics rules taken out of the hands of members themselves, maybe get a pass a group of former justices or even four members of Congress. Although I don't want the chop myself to pass judgment on some of these things and then hopefully D politicizes there is a house doesn't need to be police members need to be held accountable for ethical violations, but it shouldn't be a political tool. Should we see the impeachment process here as an extension of this kind of tit-for-tat? You got my guy. I'm going to get your guy attitude. Of a perjury here, at least I can't but I think that a lot of people are using that process for that purpose. Mary you're coming, please. Yes. I'm so glad you're discussing this subject this morning. I waited for years for someone to do this. I think the lack of Civility started with Newt Gingrich and his cronies in Congress which included Steve Gunderson from our district that used to sit in the back of the hall a cat calls yell scream clap like a bunch of high school kids at a football game. And I don't know if I'm mistaken or not, perhaps mr. Weber and tell me but I really think the lack of Civility started with Newt Gingrich and maybe it will disappear since he has gone. Thank you. Were you one of those bore and Cat collars? I wasn't blowing in cat calling. I hope it's better points not far off, but let me however make another as I said in that article in the New Yorker. I have very mixed feelings about what we did 12 or more years ago, 12 14 years ago on the one hand. There's no question that it has contributed to the lack of Civility and I don't like that on the other hand one has to remember the situation that the majority found itself at that time. I think most people now, in fact, I think most Democrats now would concede that by the time that they've been in power for 30. Five years there was an arrogance in the majority that really led to this kind of a of a of a situation issues were not only not issues of the minority felt important were never brought up at all. They had to go to court to defeat them, but they wouldn't they would make sure there was going to be a hold on an issue. The minority cared about committee ratios were prejudiced against the majority in an unfair way and there was a real arrogance of power there. And in that environment, you know, you could have to have decided he was going to sit back and sort of Play House servant to the Democrat majority or are you actually can try to shake things up and I defend a lot of what was done to sort of shake up things. But as I said, I have mixed feelings about a many of us are probably went too far or nose early days, and I certainly think that that the Newt Gingrich carried it on too long, but there are two sides to this. There's the obligation of the Moon. Ready to conduct itself in a responsible way. There's also the obligation of image of a majority to the has the course the power to run the institution through run it the way that it sure is that Minority views at least get air in it. When that man that when when let that relationship breaks down it contributes to this lack of Civility were talking about earlier call Rich to tasks and then did some of the other leadership. Is it a function of leadership in congress or is the feeling about I'm going to get kind of get you guys is that so pervasive that at the leaders are merely reflecting the the people that their leading members are certainly across the aisle than there used to be in Ohio and people used to talk about the fact that Bob Michael the Republican party leader in Tip O'Neill the Speaker of the House. Go golfing together on a summer day or something like that. I get pardoned Gingrich. I think I think that's almost inconceivable to me that the majority leader in the speaker would not at least consult about the schedule on the calendar and things like that and it does extend two more junior members are out. There are certainly some friendships, but not nearly what they're used to be members are more isolated from each other and now that's not that's not a good situation but voters have to think about this because one of the reasons is that members now really don't maintain a residence in Washington or at least a lot more of them do not they live in an apartment on Capitol Hill and and there are home every Thursday night and come back Tuesday Morning Wichita away is what the people have said. They wanted they want of the representatives to get out of washing be closer to home. But it means that they don't they're there's no social friendships to the extent that they used to be. Members of Congress have that has a price to be paid so they don't hang out with each other. Even when they are in Washington. That's right. That's right. They just they just work there and go home on weekends and then de there's a positive side to that. But when it comes time to try to really Rangel out very difficult issues things that matter, you know, like we haven't had one lately, but the Iraq situation could well then sit in the future cause us to have to have a congressional action and powering the president to to to to use Force. Those are the times when you want to have a personal relationship among members that allow them to discuss what's in the country's interest comfortably in an unfriendly terms. You don't want them having no personal relationship with each other cuz they're very sensitive and important issues while you're coming please in fact that you're sort of leading into it actually because you're talkin about humanistic relation. I think perhaps the public is ahead of politicians on this and that He's elected in Minnesota by Paul wellstone who is an extremely human individual Grant a very humorous and wonderful campaign that really related to people and to human values Jesse Ventura again out of the usual political. Jargon a who was a real human being and of course real human beings such as President Clinton have an upside and a downside and perhaps the public is more willing to see real human beings the like themselves leading them then some kind of concoction some kind of political concoction, which they really can't trust and I think we can be more forgiving about a human peccadilloes when we see if someone has good intentions. I think the public is very astute about this and you know, you think about the Dalai Lama's, but he said his religion is kindness. We tend to think that the negative is realistic and I heard this quote somewhere, but I can't remember that the person who quoted it. Is realistic and the positive or the optimistic is unrealistic and I think just the opposite is the case and we're operating on the wrong assumption that the positive can be just as powerful and what we're seeing is that the negative is not working. They were all feeling disgusted with it. And I think we have to try the option and only the option includes trust and we need to trust human nature need to trust other human beings and forgive them as well. I think that was more in the nature of a comment and a question carry, right? Let's move on to Peter who joins us from Waite Park Peter fine. Are you good sir? I'd like the backup for just a second with with regards to what happening in Minnesota and and how it relates to another comment made about debate and I'm wondering if if in fact we didn't get real debate back into the political Arena where majority and minority parties could sit down and and discuss things if if in fact we couldn't bring that in in in in in lieu of sticking to agendas. And and skewing poles or information to fit your agenda if if we couldn't bring that back in and if that wouldn't both of the major parties again because they would be seen as as really a party of the people and and not just, you know, some foreign power in Washington so doesn't be taken if you gentlemen care to comment comment on that tells I'll hang up the phone and then just listen. Thank you. Personally. I don't have to comment you do mr. Weber for the expert. All right. I just I think I'll say that I do think that the parties at the end of the day are going to listen to the message that they've heard from voters. And I think they're going to respond in a way that we games they legitimately even the comments as some of the Reform Party People indicate to me that the their ultimate hope is that the parties will respond and reform and I'm not that this becomes a permanent tripartite system. I don't know that I could respond a lot more specifically the question that you're next. My big thing is is that earlier talk about the arrogance of the political parties. I think that we used to have in the last 50 years. We've had election by television now, we're having governing by television because the C-SPAN and the television camera love passionate people love people who Stop in in in in in stir everything up and now it's it gets to the point nine back to the situation Minnesota where he don't neither political party is had their endorse candidate elected governor in 16 years and it's all special interest and everybody's got to get their face on TV and yell and scream so that the set their special interest will will keep going. Yeah, you're our guy you're a guy and it just didn't like the deals are done in the quote behind closed doors. They're brought to the floor and then each side just listen throw stones at each other and they say we got the votes. We don't need you. You think no matter what you do no matter what you say go ahead throw your temper tantrum, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter, I guess the system operates. I must say, I think that's a little too cynical. I think that people in government try very hard to to serve their constituents well, and I think we have a lot of good people representing me. Soda from both political parties to be candid about it. The system has has been hurt that I am there is not the give-and-take between the two parties that there used to be but I wanted to emphasize we're I'm glad we could start to get to this before we get done Gary. I'm talking about problems that are systemic in nature relating to maybe the campaign laws that we've passed and declining Civility and things like that. I do not want to be interpreted think people are in government bad people. That's not my experience. I think most of these folks are very good people. They were very very hard. They really want to do the right thing. But you know, if you're a good person trapped within a bad system, it's hard to produce a good outcome. And I think we we we we need to We need to focus on the problems within the system rather than concluding that the people in it are bad people. It's a big big issue of course, and we've just touch the scratch the surface here just mentioned a whole range of things that the that the could be changed. Is there any one place to start if members of Congress for that matter their constituents want to see some change in the way Congress operates to restore some some measure of Civility to this is there is there any one place to start? Remember the Congress for instance all whole town meetings all the time to its the public is invited to most people never go to them and and maybe they have a little foreboding about it. There's nothing threatening about it if you want it in the back and listen, that's all you got to do. But you want to get involved in a discussion with your member of Congress. You can do that. Seems like a fairly simple thing, but I really think that's what what matters is. You know revitalizing and re-energizing our political process goats were talking about here. There is no easy way for people to do that. You can't do no flip a switch or send in a letter and then have a half and people have to get them involved in cells in the process and and you'll find dialog with your elected officials is not as hard to achieve as you might think it is it help at all at least to send a letter also send a letter to your your representative and say, you know, I want you to have a good vigorous debate but knock off all this goofiness. I think that's that's exactly what letters matter especially if they're not sort of computer-generated but you sit down and people pay attention to that. I absolutely do people pay a lot of attention to it and the members of very much to be responsive to the to the constituency. Well, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate it in Minnesota and Happy Thanksgiving and giving to you and I'll listen to Happy Thanksgiving to you. And yes, it's looks like it's going to be a beautiful weekend. I'll be there next week, but not this weekend. Take care of yourself. Bye. Bye or Minnesota Congressman Vin Weber who represented Minnesota 2nd District for several years and the Congress and still I'm still very active out in Washington on a variety of fronts joining us this hour to talk about the atmosphere in Congress 01 described in a this week's New Yorker article by a senator. Joseph Biden is a Khmer Rouge style Politics the article again the town that ate Itself by Joe Klein in this week's New Yorker. Thanks for all of you to all of you been with us to the shower and especially those of you who tried to call in. I'm Ray Suarez despite a strong economy hunger is still widespread in the United States millions of Americans do not have enough to eat in the wealthiest nation in the world. Join us to examine the link between hunger and poverty in America today on the next Talk of the Nation from NPR news. Talk of the Nation begins at 1 this afternoon over the noon hour today, we're going to be talking with Minnesota's lieutenant governor elect May shunki 11 opportunity to call in with your questions right now The Writer's Almanac. And here is The Writer's Almanac for Wednesday the 25th of November 1998. It's the feast day of Saint Catherine orn around the year 310 ad in Alexandria born into a royal family is young woman. She underwent a religious conversion. It's the birthday of Louis Thomas who wrote I have the feeling that my working parts are all better off without my intervention and whatever they do. It might be something of a temptation to take over my brain on paper, but I cannot imagine doing so in real life. I would lose track get things mixed up turn on wrong cells at wrong time drop things. I doubt if I would ever be able to sync up with my own thoughts. My cells were born knowing how to do this kind of thing together. If I moved in to organize them, they would resent it. Perhaps become frightened. Perhaps warm out into my ventricles like bees. It's the rest of the composer in music critic Virgil Thompson, Kansas City, Missouri 1896 who wrote the Opera's for Saints in three acts and mother of us all it's the birthday in Bristol England 1890 of the poet Isaac Rosenberg who wrote mostly love poems and then after World War, I began became best known for his War poems. He served in the British Army in the trenches was killed in battle just a few months before the war ended who wrote a poem that began. Flameout you glorious guys. Welcome our brave kiss their exalted eyes. Give what they gave their blood is England Heart by their dead hands tis their Noble part that England stands. It's the birthday of the Norwegian writer Oscar Broughton born in Oslo 1881 who wrote mostly about growing up poor in the tenement houses on the east side of Austin. It's the birthday of the temperance leader. Carrie Nation 1846 Garrard County Kentucky who walked into whiskey joints in Kansas and along the frontier and rectum with an iron bar. And then with a hatchet her first husband was an incurable alcoholic and she began a personal Crusade against the sale of liquor. And it's the birthday of Karl Benz the engineer who made the world's first car born in Baden Germany 1844. The car was actually a three wheeler it put it on the road for the first time in 1885. Here's a poem for today by John Updike entitled relatives. Just the thought of them makes you job on a those turkey dinners those holidays with the air around a wood stove baked to a stupor and Aunt Lil's tablecloth stained by her girlhood gravy. A doggie wordless wisdom whimpers from your uncle's collected eyes. They're very jokes Creek with genetics r o a strain of common Heritage that hurts the gut sheer boredom in Fascination a spy during of chromosomes webs, even the infants in and holds us fast around the spread of rotting food of to sweet pie. The cousins Buzz the nephews crawl to love oneself is to love them all. Home by John Updike relatives from his collected poems 1953 to 1993 published by Alfred a Knopf and used by permission here on The Writer's Almanac for Wednesday, November 25th made possible by primedia workplace learning producers of the Health and Sciences television network research by brand new house be well do good work and keep in touch. It's 12 noon. This is midday coming to you on Minnesota Public Radio. And if you haven't heard yet, it shouldn't be our glorious Thanksgiving Day mild temperatures partly cloudy skies could get near 60° Friday should be very nice in the whole weekend for that matter may be a little rain on Saturday and Sunday, but otherwise very very pleasant. The debate over the authenticity of the Kensington runestone rages on on the next All Things Considered by the 200 lb Rock still fascinates people. It's all things considered weekdays at 3 on Minnesota Public Radio know FM 91.1 You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. We have a sunny Sky 50° at Kenner W FM 91.1 Minneapolis. And st. Paul sunny and Breezy all afternoon with a high reaching the mid-50s clear tonight in the cities with a lower on 30 and then tomorrow partly cloudy and Mild with a high in the middle 50s for Thanksgiving Day.