Thank you, brother six minutes now past 12:00 programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by standard heating and air conditioning the Twin Cities Home Comfort Experts for 69 years featuring York Heating and Cooling products. Good afternoon, and welcome back to mid-day on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us Northwest Airlines are Northwest Pilots Union still aren't officially talking to each other as far as we know. They're still no negotiations being held and the pilot strike at Northwest but both sides have been talking to us. There's been a full-fledged ad Blitz from both Northwest and the pie lights as you well know if you've picked up a newspaper or turned on your TV today, I meant they were going to focus on those ads what they're meant to accomplish and whether they've been effective joining us today is Kathy tunheim president the bloomington-based to Anaheim sentries us she was formerly corporate vice president of public relations at Honeywell. Also joining us here in the studio is Leonard Lee president St. Paul base public relations firm The Right Stuff Leonard was formerly with more than iron or graph and of course used to be a business reporter here at Minnesota Public Radio before I went into business. We also invite you to join our conversation. If you've got a question about the Battle of the ads being waged by Northwest and Northwest Pilots or for that matter a comment on just how effective those ants have been in shaping your thinking about to strike. We invite you to give us a call or Twin City area number is 227-6002 276 thousand. I'll try the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll-free. That number is 1 800 to +422-828-227-6000 or one 800-242-2828 get our conversation started in just a moment. But first of all, let's catch up on the latest news on the strike & Spare public radio's Mark sadacca, like it's been following the strike right along and marks in the studio. What's up Northwest announced just about an hour ago that it is laid off 27500 workers the most widespread layoffs and survived a pool pilot strike began yesterday Northwest began furloughing some dispatchers and meteorologist. Spokeswoman. Marta. Lachlan says the latest round of layoffs effect. thousands of workers in many different areas of the company mechanics flight attendants customer service employees and other ground state employees and 500 employees. Those furloughed will receive health care benefits through the month according to Northwest airline. The airline says workers that remained at Northwest represent several groups, including mechanics and reservation agents. They're doing some repair of planes and reservations agents are helping customers find out alternative ways to get around in the sort of thing Northwest us a more layoffs are inevitable at the pilot strike continues Northwest has canceled all flights through the Labor Day weekend as of yet. No new negotiations are scheduled between the pilots in Northwest yesterday that right. Now the national mediation board chair is trying to bring the airline in the union together for what the NMB is carefully calling exploratory discussions. It would be aimed at determining whether a resumption an actual negotiations might be successful yesterday after hours of meeting with the meetings with the airline. In the union Transportation secretary Rodney Slater made it clear that the Clinton Administration does want both sides back at the table as soon as possible. Secretary Slater said Clinton is concerned about how the strike is affecting the economy in parts of the country like Minneapolis and st. Paul and other Northwest strongholds Slater did say however, well Clinton is concerned the president as of yet has no intention to force Northwest Pilots back to work under provisions of the Railway Labor Act course Clinton did that a year-and-a-half ago when American Airlines Pilots went out on strike what's dividing the union and management at this point are issues of wages and job protection Northwest continues to run ads criticizing Pilots demands the pilots for now, they say they're going to be backing down from the ad War both sides seem willing to meet with national mediation board officials, however, both sides so there's really no point in resuming actual negotiations until the other agrees to compromise so we don't have the underpinnings of these Folks coming together under some 10 to try to work this out. It's just seems to be getting worse and worse than with the layoffs of 27500. People Northwest is really shutting this Air Line down. Is there any sign that travel problems are getting worse if the stabilized it cuz it didn't seem to be all that bad after all it's tough to tell of course. Everybody was predicting just sure melee when they are lined up went on strike and as it turned out people probably just have not been traveling but that's going to catch up with the business folks. Especially there's going to be pent-up demand people are putting things on hold and saying maybe that that while get out there next week and we'll work this out will next week's going to be here pretty quickly and people are going to have to travel and they're going to run into problems. It's interesting Sun Country Airlines flies. A lot of people know them as a charter Airline, they fly scheduled Services. Well, they told us the other day that they had a 727 or a 37 from Minneapolis to Chicago at the morning business flight with 40 open seat. So there are still options available, but People who have to travel running into problems and they're going to run into increasing problems as more folks get out and travel the head postpone travel. It's not going to places like Minneapolis-Saint Paul and Detroit being Northwest Airlines in Northwest shuts down. It's going to be a problem eventually. Thanks Mark appreciate it. Most of the public radio is March sat act like who is tracking one of the many reporters here at Minnesota Public Radio who is tracking the Northwest Airlines story this hour we're going to be talking about that ad campaign that marked it actually referred to the ad campaign that has been dominating your local newspaper for that matter. There was the u.s. TriWest ads that we saw for weeks and weeks while at Stryker that labor dispute was underway. What's the purpose of these kinds of ABS how effective are they public relations experts Leonard Lane County to Anaheim are with us. And again, we invite you to join our conversation to 276 thousand Twin City area. Number to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1 800 to +422-828-227-6102 for 22828 Leonard Kathy Dykes coming in today. Thank you. What is the what is the purpose of these ads now? None of us are going to be at a bargaining table. None of us are going to be voting on these contracts. We're not going to be negotiating. Why is it important that in this case Northwest and Northwest Pilots? Get us to believe that there are the good guys. Well, it's obviously we're not negotiating that Gary but obviously the public pressure will come to play in. This is what they're hoping. You were dealing with the free severe just location for a lot of angry would be passengers and clearly they're hoping that if they can a pin the blame on the other guy that there perhaps I can sway public opinion to try and get a little extra pressure and leverage to help them in the negotiations that the other side would be more willing to pay be in at the bargaining table. If they had the sense that we were outraged at the other side. I think the other is that certainly for the company they have a whole bunch of relationships. They have to manage now and in the future and in the situation like this, they have all kinds of tools of communication advertising certainly earned media publicity and and using the reporters who follow all this to try to get messages through direct communication. Certainly the company has the option is talking directly to all of its a frequent flyers. And the management question becomes sorting out and saying already got all these tools how we going to use them both yet to try to put pressure on the situation to bring some reconciliation but also to try to salvage and manage wherever we can relationships that are that that are going to have to continue one of the real challenges. I think they have is that they didn't come into this with a blank sheet of paper and either side did really but certainly not the company. I think it's interesting that in the north-northwest situation much more so than most other significant business problems that companies face. Everybody has an opinion before this one got started. There were there were a lot of history between the community and the flying public and the taxpaying public and Northwest much more so than there is a lot of publicly held companies who may run into some sort of business problem. Now is this kind of an ad campaign relatively new development or say 30 40 years ago when the Auto Workers Were Striking at Ford or would they? Have engaged in the same kind of public relations effort. I think it was around the level to which its use now in the kinds of money that's invested in that I think is sort of breathtaking but I think that the process of using communication tools where you had a high level of control has been a part of a labor-management negotiations for a long time and other kinds of business dilemmas. I think we're babysitting bit more of these types of incidents like Northwest and like us were young with sort of in a public commodity service is almost where everybody your needs to fly needs to have a telephone service until the public directly has a stake in this Kathy use the word breathtaking. When you when you refer to the costs involved. Can you give us some idea of what each side has been spending a ballpark figure? I don't know of another side and I don't have it. So I don't have real data, but we all know that full page ads in papers not just here in this market, but all over the country are being taken out by both sides. I'm sure we're talking in the hundreds of thousands. dollars for sure is the figure I heard was that the full-page ad in the New York Times such as Northwest could run anywhere on north of $50,000 just for that one. And of course, we've been seeing these for the better part of what at least a month anyway, and it was one news me to reference and I don't know whether it was accurate or not. But certainly one recently. I saw that suggested $100,000 a day is getting spent in paid media to try to to talk to us about how everybody how we decided feeling as a TV as are produced. Those are expensive to produce. Someone has to gather the information you can for a simple newspaper ad so a behind-the-scenes the ad scan at The Crossing At a very quickly know Leonard you use the word information which brings me to my next question. Are these now I'm having sure this the right right question, but let's plow ahead. Anyway, are these truthful are these ads truth. The best comparison I would be as look at these as you would look at the political ads during the campaign season. Obviously, there is then I could tell the whole truth. They'll tell partial truths. They may shade things. They may not they may omit certain facts. And of course, you know, each side is doing a really good job of trying to point out that the other guys ads are inaccurate. And so I think everything you see in this out of context really has to be taken with a grain of salt only half the story is that as a rule best-case probably about the paid Media stuff we see on this one so far is how neither side seems to me is very interested in using these highly controlled public as to explain. What's really the distance between the two of them and there's not a lot of information with the detailed problems. They they see an iron able to close the gap on a beach take the Steak Out positions pilot to draw What they giving up before and how they they should do. This should be there time for some reward from Matt and a company's got a physician about how highly paid these guys are and everybody State their position and they don't seem to want to move very much off it I think in a lot of situations you would see some moving over time there be more and more information getting shared as people try to make their case. It doesn't seem to be the interest here. I'm not quite sure what the strategy is. I do find it. I found it curious. I was flying yesterday on another airline and so had a Plane full of people on their way to Minneapolis talking about how they felt about this morning. It was interesting is that people made the points given out inconvenience they are they're not very interested in investing any more time and trying to figure out whose side they're on their just irritated and and want it to be over it then they'll decide who was right and who was wrong but the notion of fighting for public support while we are also severely inconvenienced may be a battle that's not worth either side trying to fight. That's a good point. I think we reach the stage. Send in the morning noise. They generate that the higher the possibility I can get Negative backlash on both their houses and I think next to the clinton-lewinsky Saga then Northwest Pilots company Feud maybe the issue Minnesota the most sick of hearing about by now. So that's why I was marching. I click reported earlier. Now the pilots are saying no more tit-for-tat response in the in the ad campaign. I don't know that they went so far as to say they're going to get out of the ad business but no more Tit for Tat, is that why what's behind that or they think it went to the National advertising councilman said are they want a moratorium on the ads in and out what their motivation for that was? No one can guess but I think it wouldn't it wouldn't be impossible that this call today that they're not respond to pretend. He's just another attempt to use the ad war and it is another weapon still. We're talking this hour with the public relations experts Kathy to Anaheim and Leonard Lee about the about the ad war that has surrounded the Northwest Airlines pilot strike and it would love to hear from you. If you got a question about how this campaign has been conducted would also like to find out how you've been responding to these ads weather. In fact, they been effective in terms of shaping you're thinking about the strike. Give us a call 227-6020 area number to 276 thousand. I'll try the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll-free at 1 800 to +422-828-227-6102 for 22828 Teresa your first Glynn Place that I go along with Senator wellstone that I'm kind of appalled at a Northwest Orient Airlines the company with the history of bad relations with their employee that they should have taken the money they spend on ads giving it to their employees. Figure out that happy employees make happy customers and quite frankly as customers weird kind of sick of taking the brunt of the problems that they can't straighten out because they're treating their employees. Thank you before you run their Teresa your position on the strike is pretty clear wasn't influenced it all by these ads I would say is that I was even less impressed that Northwest would take the money that they could have given their employees to fight a battle that it's a pretty evident to most passengers fly on them who have been the ones who have been abused by unhappy employees because of their bad Labor Relations. It's 8 just doesn't make any sense and what about the pilots Union which among other things Pilots course wants more money spending money for these ads. Sorry, but on the other side of the coin, I think they did make some substantial agreements back when Northwest was in trouble. And I think that it was very reasonable for them to expect that they would I be treated honorably in the future. So no problem with her spending money on the ads frustrated. All this energy is going into the ad Wars, you know, which potentially could be going into the bargaining when negotiating on this again gets us back into the situation here. I think the more they engage in this the higher the risk that but both the company and the union dress up for a long-term damages to the reputation even after this thing is long over agree with that but I think it's interesting to to me that time given for a few days into this tray and I would I would have deserved both sides were very very ready for the strike when it came. I think they helped us is the flying public be ready. I think and we all knew that this would likely happen and it was going to be the way It is but I think they were also ready to use paid advertising instead of other kinds of dialogue because we all know and advertising can get slam together overnight pretty fast, but it seems to me there was a my observation would be that there was a decision made to use that kind of Highly controlled one-way communication mechanism on both sides pretty aggressively before this ever get started these ads do they tend to solidify the position of a person like Teresa or do they tend to change Minds? What to think like a man said that people's minds are largely made up before this even started but I think it is you suggest we all does it tends to polarize opinions do it. I think the only people read them other people already have a strong opinion. Is there a lot of people get information from these as opposed to waiting through these long stories in the paper or listening to the stories on the radio and TV, I don't think so. I really believe again people are so highly inconvenience by this one that it's it's asking him to invest more time and energy to sort through. Everybody is Leonard says highly biased as I think most of us have become sensitive to when we read advertising week me read it with some skepticism about how to take it all I don't think a lot of us in the flying public business flying public are interested in having to sort through while drinking minions poolside wear on you don't understand the basic now with the palace position. Compass position is if you take for instance the issue of the regional Jets, which is one of the major Hangouts, you know, people don't want to study the nuances that you know that the union wants to RJ's limited 260 in the company's find a Thai the number to tell Jess to the growth of the narrow-body jet liner fleets of subtle differences about joining you I did a very unscientific kind of a serving of set of people that I had that chance to touch base with this morning though. And one of them's that came through and I think a number of those conversations was what doesn't come through and either by the advertising is what's in the interest of the public the weather it's regional Jets, whether it's having a highly centralized kind of service we get for Northwest because of the dominance they have at this at this airport is something that we all need to appreciate and at the same time. Here's the flip side of that sort of a reality, but what came through and it from a number of people was there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of articulate. Reminder side about what's really in our best interest of Iran on television. And that is that tipped. Frankly. I'll see one from management or from Northwest and say I think I have a sort of responses and that's effective it hits a point, but then I'll see one from the other side from the pilots and feel the same way. And so one since you could say the ads are effective they get my attention. I hear them but perhaps in one way there and one way they are equally good and get it in terms of getting attention and so forth, but if they're both equally effective to someone who's not directly affected does that negate their effectiveness? Because I'm seeing the both as having a point but the minute I see the other side. Is it for a cancels out the other back and forth. I almost like in it to the situation to the In Washington when Republicans blame democrats for a lack of movement on campaign Finance reform and vice versa and the public they say the public doesn't care. Well when understand blaming either side, we just have a sense from away from Washington. It's a mess and they should straighten it out. I almost feel the same thing with this this strike come in yards of ground and you can fight for years and not get anywhere all this money and time is being invested. And in my opinion is I think it's very unlikely. It's going to sway public opinion significantly one way or the other. Let me ask you this why I say that only one side was running these ads with the other side get a sympathy vote. Would they be charged with being so arrogant? They won't even communicate with us the public. What would be the reaction if only one side or running these? Got the message. He finds it actually effective. So no, I think if only one side was working and then have a very significant advantage of only one side could afford to advertise choose advertising. For example, you would see an impact in which message is getting through with what kind of consistency and over time maybe in the final analysis later looking back. Maybe they'll be some empathy or Sympathy for the side that didn't have the money, but I think the battle would have been lost already Patty your question Place, speaks directly what you were talking about. Working a local media and I do think in this case one side does have a distinct advantage in Marketplace in terms of purchasing that advertising dollar and that's Northwest Airlines to work in advertising and marketing and know what kind of budgets they spend and they can immediately flip all their image advertising over to this kind of advocacy advertising for their position. Where is the pilots union doesn't have those funds we don't have those budgets mean they can Master them up and you don't pull them together at the last minute, but we're really looking at, you know, ten thousand to one kind of ratio in terms of their ability to purchase that that paid advertising doesn't come across to the average person on the street. I mean, it seems like everybody's pretty equal here in this battle here in town. And I know and I know for a fact it is about a 10 to 1 ratio in terms of what they're spending and the pilots Union just cancelled all their ads as of yesterday, and I think they realize you know, they can't fight the battle there. As much as you know it we can debate whether or not it's it's a battle that you know can be one with paid advertising but I think they realize that they cannot outspend Northwest Airlines who has a marketing budget that set for the whole year that they can immediately turn on Bo on advocating for their own position Northwest set on paper. They did manage is clear, but I think in terms of this debate that the pilots have two significant things going for them want their messages exceedingly simple, we build the airline out we deserve somebody and it has become that gets lost in the noise, but the message is very clear easy to understand and this thing is to as at the unit circle Northwest does not have much of a reservoir of Goodwill built up in this town. So I didn't hear what it is. It is very easy to pick on them and it is very difficult for them. I think that generates Minnesota public good. Well no matter how much money they spend. Company that started with a blank sheet of paper and that's when he knew that they were coming from a different place in the pilots were in terms of public awareness and public perception. We were speculating earlier about why it was at the pilots of announced that they are dropping out of the Tit for Tat business. Is it that Patty seems to suggest that probably the reason is they're running out of money. You can't afford it is that makes sense. It may be a dirty as it it may simply have a tactical move to let me ask you about in terms of political ads and politics the thing about a negative advertising their few things that we've learned I think over the years. They Works no question about it, but another part of negative advertising and politics is that bi come election day many voters have the feeling that they're all a bunch of bums. They've heard for weeks and weeks, but the other guys, they're all terrible isn't there a danger here both for the company and the pilots that when the She eventually is settled people will simply not be interested in supporting or flying Northwest Airlines, which of course it hurt the company but also hurt the pilots in Northwest. Into pieces Atlanta said earlier, I think there is a higher risk here that the before long they'll be assertive a pox on both your houses feeling on the part of a lot of people but to take it the next step in that assists and I know I've heard it and not media coverage of the last day or so people saying I'll never find Northwest Airlines again. It's sort of an idle threat. I mean if you're going to get out of here, you're going to be fine on Northwest Airlines again, but I think that's just an expression of frustration on the part of people and I want trying to hold them to that but I think it is an indication of the level of just not so much a willingness and interest to invest more of themselves to understand the nuances of the situation as much as try to express an interest in having both sides. Is there as much energy as they can in solving this thing instead of trying to persuade us one way or the other about the drives the Northwest Airlines pilot strike joining us Cafe 209 president of Senate results and Leonard Lee president of the right stuff couple of public relations X Joining us this hour and we'd like to have you join us as well. If you've got a question about the ads that you've been seeing if you got a comment about whether they've suede your opinion as to who's right and who's wrong in the strike. Give us a call to 276 thousand is our Twin City area number to 276 Thousand Oaks at the Twin Cities. You can reach its toll free at 1 800 to +422-828-227-6802 for 22828. What you're up next go ahead place contradistinction to one of your comment that I think the ads have been very informative very contradictory. I happen to make reservations for Northwest flight about six hours before the strike was announced and because I'm not a frequent flyer. I'm taking a first-class I have considerable funds invested in this trip and very Interested in what's going to happen to me personally, so I followed this along and tried to figure out what was going to happen in the ads were not only informative to me about the positions of either side. But they also let me know that these people don't like each other very much in the strikes not likely to be settled for a long time. It seems to me any concern me about my ability to change my flight my tickets over to another flight that the government has is a forcing these people back to the table. Somebody needs to do that because they are at the present time. It looks to me from up here at 300 miles or 200 miles north of the Twin Cities is a couple of kids in the schoolyard calling each other names at this point. The question I have is is this kind of advertising more and more common during strikes that both sides advertising major Metropolitan newspapers in the area that's affecting their strike. We going to see how we going to see a lot more of that. This kind of adding 2 campaign activity surrounding Labor Management Association. It's a it's a very powerful tool. So for those players in the game who can afford it. Yes. I think you will you will always see it as one of the arrows in their quiver of something that they want and have the opportunity to use and in terms of the tenor of the ads do they reflect the ones we've seen with Northwest do they reflect statement of position or peek at the other party chance to stick it to him a little bit ly bit of both Gary and they're trying to explain their position to the public. But at the same time, you know, they are at the bottom of the Northwest add so that no one has heard about a metre of what's causing the economy or that's clearly temperature trying you pin the blame on the other guy and say you look what the other side is costing us in this. So there's definitely there's definitely Jabs built in there he goes or do they come in to play then? I mean if you're the CEO of northwest or you're the head of the union and you want to come out do you want to be the big guy? The winner here? Is that obvious Beyond just the the contractual Victory? Is that play a role in when these kind of disputes break again that being in the room on these ones? It's hard to know for sure. I will say this I think two things first baptism in the caller said I would agree that I think especially before the strike was at was real the ads were were informative. And and now back to the question. You just asked I think we're seeing as this now gets into a trench warfare to use when it's Fraser earlier more of the sense of frustration and animosity starts to come through even the tone of some of the advertising do I think that's what anybody intends to do? First and foremost. No, I don't think so, but it's a creative process and a whole lot of things go into consideration. So it's not in the room don't know exactly how that's happening. But I think we are seeing a higher level of of animosity come through in the tone of the end going back to what you would call it a minute ago to be as helpful. I think again the more negative this campaign is important to put fear into people that if they are this polarizing this angry each other how on Earth are they ever going to get back together sit-down agree on something and Shake Hands over it and I think that's another negative impact question place. But with that said Northwest the companies ads have changed my position slightly. I was wondering where you like a sports player, you know if they can get Mileage should get what they can get it get as much as I can. But then when I heard that you're special concern the concessions they had to get them but then when I heard the concession they had been given all these stock lot of stock in the company never actually been given a part of the company. I start thinking what went to wait a minute. They're hurting themselves by going on strike again, the information that I received get shipped me a little bit not totally but it has it has moved my position and I think the pilots that I really missed an opportunity something that are the airlines did that they did tonight was the night of the strike there was a news conference called and Northwest use the opportunity to place an ad. I mean, that's basically we all they did during the news conference and I think the pilot should have had their own news conference that night I have to say you'll get here is why we are going on strike or here's why things are The way they are clarification. I believe both sides have press briefing exactly what the sequence was there. I don't know. I've been sitting at hear from somebody who had to cover all that that night exactly how that all transpired but I believe both sides did try figuring out of both and successful in getting through from that collars. It was interesting because it was announced that it was dueling press conferences Alpa and North West Side symbol Pinas press conferences and I saw the TV stations bouncing back and forth by the figure what kind of cover hearts and minds of the public or each side was trying to going to get the edge and then one of the other to try and get their message out, you know, let me come back to where we started again because this continues to mystify me dumb as a post. You know, what is it they want me to do or you to do they've won let's say they won my heart they won my mind. What what am I supposed to do in the end? Is that that's I think that's the that's the point of being a lot of this is going to affect the outcome when we wake up in this is all over is it going to have made a difference and I think these that's the question the answer may be no need to go back to the thing. I said earlier. I think if you see this only in the short-term you end up at that confounding sort of place and confounded places. They don't understand why they're making me have an opinion cuz I don't get a vote but I most of them have longer-term relationships and perceptions that they're all so worried about and trying to make sure that they think about the use of paid advertising as a tool to manage perceptions about them in the longer-term. I you can look at it and say when Jesus not doing a very good job, but they've got some very very difficult circumstances to work themselves through here hard to get from the outside to know all that they are taking into consideration, but Northwest for example has other labor relationships to have to think about him to anticipate and to manage they have Lots of flying public at relationships to worry about salvaging through this and after it's all over album has got the responsibility of thinking about its relationship with the other Union with other pilot unions and so on. So they've all that other relationships and what they're saying and how they're using paid media is in part is one part of an overall strategy. They've got a managing whole bunch of stakeholder relations what the public thinks we need and a Xanax management employee of Northwest Airlines. I know that that's true within the company. The focus is on making the money not necessarily looking at what the public ones so I'm wondering why either one either side doesn't concentrate on making a public feel as though they do have a playing this and if so what it is and what they can do about it. Are the available too busy being wrapped up young again in trying to sway the opinion on the negotiations himself since that's what they're focused on. We we saw a slight change this morning, which I thought was interested in Northwest Clannad sings if they were going to extend the expiration deadline for all their frequent flyer miles, which is interesting cuz I thought you were at last I here's a piece of advertisements useful to me and individual traveler. And also I think may have been the first part of me really heartfelt conciliatory gesture either party saying look at a we are genuinely sorry if the inconvenience that were causing the traveling public We're talking this hour about the ad campaign. That's surrounded the Northwest airline strike Blitz of ads from both Northwest Airlines and the Northwest Airlines Pilots Union in joining us at this hour a couple of public relations experts to help us sort through the point of these ads why we've seen so many of them with their meant to communicate and whether or not they've been in fact if active Leonard Lee is with US president of public relations firm The Right Stuff Kathy Kuhn Time Is Here president up to Anaheim santrizos. And again, we invite you to join our conversation to 276 thousand is Twin City area number to 276 thousand. I'll try the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828. Meanwhile joining us now is Joshua Javits who is former chair of the national mediation board is labor law professor at Georgetown. Good afternoon, sir. Appreciate it from a mediator's point of view of these public ad campaigns. Help or hurt the mediators are the issues. Now the number of issues in the distance, which they're apart and really focus the men without regard to what's going on outside the bargaining. There's a news blackout and the parties are as I say you were focusing on the issues before them around them all the love of the political and economic forces that are at work outside of the mediators point of view. Yes. The party is against against against the other part of any advantages. They may have by conducting one campaign another answer that negotiators and general have their finger to the wind to keep close tabs. I'm not the changing public opinion pulse of public opinion. Thanking what the general public thinks. I can't have an effect on the on bargaining and it'll get through to the parties. No matter what even though they are focusing on the issues and then they got the power that they're now exerting. Both parties are American Airlines and there was a not a strike but during a. Of an emergency board a lot of publicity about both sides and I was like thank felt in that circumstance that their publicity was it was tough on that the public recognized. And what their retirement benefits were at if it wasn't a tremendous lot of public sympathy for piloting and gaining public sympathy after the first few days. Apparently no negotiations are being held at least none that we know about right now. What would a mediator at this point be looking for in terms of calling the parties back together what the kind of a sign would that mediator be looking for negotiations and then not during a 30-day countdown. In which they had every incentive to reach an agreement means that they probably need this. Of time to exert their economic pressure on each other and that economic pressure probably includes public relations pressure. And so that the mediator Back for a couple of days to see if that kind of use of economic muscle in Santa by the parties to come back to the table. The mediator may not want to bring the parties back to quickly because if they bring the back too quickly, they could just get frustrated and be in the same state they were with the mediators need is a change of position by one or both sides in order to get an agreement and they probably are waiting holding back a few days letting this very to self-help by both sides take place to see what kind of pressure and bills make the one side or another or change their position as I am just stand the news and I haven't kept up at least call day parties together to explore what the what the issues are Define the issues. I've had not sure what what exactly is going on. Rodney Slater this Victory Transportation brought in the party, but I can't do anything too early after the party's. Thanks so much for your insides are appreciate it. Joshua Javits who is labor law professor at Georgetown. He's the former chair of the national mediation board were talking this out on her midday program about the ad campaign that surround the that have surrounded the Northwest Airlines pilot strike Leonard Lee Kathy. Tuna, Mr. Here. They're both in the public relations business and again lots of callers on the line, but if you'd like to join our callers 2276 thousand or one 800-242-2828 Paul your next Ramen watching the whole situation from the sidelines and hit the same to be kind of a muddled mess for quite a while but I see where Northwest Airlines was looking for presidential intervention and it seemed to be at right about the same time as when we started seeing the the pilot fads and of course, it's in Northwest 5th interest for intervention and not in the pilots best interest for intervention. Of course, we have a situation to me where where politics are involved. I think that's really where the the public interest is important to both sides working working on us through the politicians the nicely to that to the m message that we got from the former mediator. And that is it. This is the. Of this process. When is he put it there economic they have the opportunity to exercise their he can. Leverage and that's what we're saying the public evidence of that through the advertising and in hopes of moving public opinion one way or the other but I think it's not probably realistic to think that there wasn't all kinds of political pressure being maneuvered back and forth over an extended. Of time again, is it for a mediator mention? These are parties who's been looking for some way to find a agreement for a considerable period of time and I think involvement of the political process isn't a new piece of this. We're just seeing the public evidence of it. Now public is involved in these campaigns. Do they see this as a war among themselves or is this just friendly competition? That's what would question Gary of its people such as Kathy myself were brought in to provide counsel provide strategy and advice in a company that are free to follow our advice or are they are free not to you know, so I'm sure that the pr people are contributing know their expertise and their counsel what the upper management the both the Northwest with the both lights in the union are doing of course, it's up to them. They know they can follow the pr console or they can go their own way. If they choose one of the things I thought about joining you was the the role of the senior-most communications counselors were inside an organization and not unlike and it in the political realm the role of the spokespeople at the White House. For example, if you think about all that they've been through in the last month and in fact in some ways, we had an interesting insight into that very unique dilemma that they have that there they are to be spokespeople. May or may not be privy to all of the information at the time they have to take a public position and again not inside the screen on this one. So I don't know that the detail of what I'm referring to we are other than to suggest those were in the position of publicly having to speak out on the company's side in particular. I'm thinking here are people who are who are at the table for a lot of the discussion that is having to happen within their organizations now, but but may or may not have the opportunity to have the full perspective of the long-term issues at the at the time they're having to manage public Communications right now on the line the very very difficult stressful spot that they're in and because Communications in the absence of a good understanding of the context in which you're speaking eyes is stressful and dangerous. Joel your next you're coming I like these ads because I think they're very telling us to the employment atmosphere between unions and major corporations like this and what my impression is that should we do have very high high paid employees for a company that it appears that they're being offered us a relatively decent package in the saying no to make too much money is a corporation in and we want more and will do so even if we have to hurt you in the process and I'm amazed that unions are allowed to do this because in in the general world of employment if you do that to an employer they're going to stay here at the door. Why don't you just leave and I really think it's telling how these ads are showing the us against them mentality that the units have created and the real negative impact that I can have on business and the general economy. And that's I guess I think it is in the long run bad that leave lasting impact of the ads can be more the impression that they leave rather than the specific facts with both sides are trying to use them for back to the phone's mic. You're up next to talk a little bit about the Public Relation to factor. I think it's really not effective at all because it appears to me that there's like a pox on both of your houses. Like the previous caller said I wonder about the factual content of the ads. I don't know if there's any editorial Corrections or any kind of process to determine whether or not what they're putting out is truthful and I'm like a lot of other people that have been on the truck sway back and forth between the union and the company based on what I've read. So it really makes me wonder is this a big campaign to get people's minds to move certain ways or are they trying to put on facts? Well, I can take a step further Gary pure counselor catching myself always advise our clients bear in mind. What's the objective? What are you trying to achieve with your Communications and then worry about how to achieve then and I think you know that there's I think both side in this case may need to take a step back and try and reassess whether they have lost sight of what the objective of these PRN ad campaigns really is well put your detective hat on that work backward from the ads that you've seen. What do you suppose the point of these is other than a general kind of we want the public to like us almost put the some of the company adds into two different phases and maybe from the pilots positions to that is prior to the strike actually becoming real. I think there was a level of information that they were looking to convey. I think there was a concern about the public being ready for the dislocation inconvenience. It was going to happen because they know that if they if we're not ready for it. Backlash on them is just that much more difficult. And so I think there was an information kind of a quotient in the first phase of this I think in the time since then it is on again. I go back to what the former mediator suggested. I think there has been in these last few days and attempt to try to rile enough opinion on one side or the other somebody's writing somebody's wrong and have that spill over into surveyed public opinion in a way that would cause one side or the other to Blink Brenda. I guess I'd start out with my first reaction was oh no, not another show on Northwest and Lewinsky and the elections today. So anyway, I think you know, I started out with a preconceived position kind of threw the machinists negotiations and and their work slowed down since I came into this with a predisposition against the company. I wonder what agenda management has to stall negotiations for 2 years. They made they got themselves to the summer traveling season and there's a piano. I just wonder if there's not an agenda but Regarding the ads themselves. I'm not a shareholders. So the amount of money they're spending of that, you know could be returned to the shareholders is an appropriate. But as a taxpayer are these business expenses that can be tax deductions and that's a huge amount of money tax deductible. I would imagine how can the pilots Union get a cut on this in some fashion rather. I assume for A 1 C 3 nonprofit. So they're too I'm sure they can expect as well. So the long and the short of it is that we the taxpaying public are paying for these ads are going to be a dwarves that that are thin people perceive or people think you could be better spent trying to get a settlement at Sea. We can shoehorn one last caller and Richard a quick comment place. Oh, yeah. I just I'm just kind of surprised what I hear people talking about how much information they're getting and they're believing from any of the ads. I just fine when I see you the management ads, you know talking about the pilots contracts. I just can't believe that there's a lot more to this than meets the eye. I don't believe 6,000 Pilots would go on strike if there wasn't a good reason. Back to the healthy skeptical skeptical what they're saying? Well, okay. I can't let you folks go without putting you on the spot just a little bit who's who's been most effective terms of getting out whatever their message might be. Kathy want to go first thinking there isn't a quick answer. I have to reinforce something I said earlier. I believe this is a very intensive important phase of relationships that don't that were before this and they will continue after this and so it's hard for me to think about Winners losers cuz they all have to work and live together when this is over both with each other and with us as the public and given I say that because I think it's important again to think about when the when the timer started on this one on Friday night Northwest Airlines had to take into consideration where they already were with a public and I think the fact that they've got people thinking maybe they've got a point of view says they're being effective and getting at least people to listen to their side. I had to score a text to give a slide into the pilots Union they've started taking a lot of pages are the Clinton campaign book there. There theme might be no. It's the bailout stupid if kept the message very short to-the-point. Ineffective, but the danger is now on both sides. I think we're really entering into a nuclear Overkill situation and it the more they eat the more noise. I think that the more it's going to hurt both of them with that. Thanks so much for coming into the station lights been since I'd public relations experts Kathy to Anaheim president of Two and a Half centuries house and Leonard Lee president of the public relations firm The Right Stuff joining us this our honor midday program to talk about the ad campaign or campaigns that have surrounded the Northwest airline strike like to thank all of you who've been with us this our especially those of you who I called in or tried to call in with your questions and comments tomorrow at mid-day will hear from all to go tutorial candidate. So their issue their stand on the issue of crime prevention also a special broadcast tomorrow on the world is a nonprofit's Gary I can hear thanks for tuning in. Nonprofits play an essential role in the economy. 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