Nike Mike 6 minutes past 12 programming an MPR is supported by carousel automobiles The Oddities store offering the Audi A4 Avant European sport wagons available in front rack and Quattro models. Good afternoon, and welcome back to mid-day on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary acting glad you could join us smile debate continues around the world today over the US cruise missile attacks yesterday against alleged terrorist training camps in Afghanistan and a chemical plant in Sudan. The Clinton Administration says the facilities were key parts of an international terrorist Network led by Saudi Arabian. Multi-millionaire, Osama. Bin Laden President says the attacks were in response to the Embassy bombings in East Africa 2 weeks ago. He says they were also ordered an effort to head off the imminent threat of future attacks by the bin Laden Network. Most members of Congress have back the administration's action and some us allies of also Express their support for the attacks most notably Israel in Britain, but Many Many Nations, including Russia, Pakistan Afghanistan and Sudan are condemning the attacks. It's not where we're going to take a closer. Look at the US action what prompted it and the reaction to it joining us this hour from Washington is retired Admiral Eugene Carroll. He is the deputy director of the center for defense information and we invite you to join our conversation in the Twin City area. If you'd like to get some information about the attacks yesterday and the reaction 2A to 276 thousand is our Twin City area number to 276 thousand. I'll try the Twin City area. You can reach us toll-free at 1 800 to +422-828-227-6004. 1 802-442-2828 Admiral. Thank you for joining us here at midday. Once again good to be aboard have we turn this bin Laden just the latest in a long line of Boogeyman or is is he represent a real threat to the United States? Some of both we've had the people who represented a threat in one way or another who we did maybe over build up as as bogeymen, but they still were were security problems and I think been loud and it's the same description. We may be making him a lot taller than he really is but he has apparently invest his money and created an organization which is capable of such a dastardly acts as blowing up our embassies in Tanzania and Kenya. Did we have any alternative assuming that what we've been told by the government is accurate that it was it was there any real alternative to launching these cruise missile attacks government always has an alternative you always have options to choose from but we have cast ourself as the world's only superpower. Our secretary of state said in a statement would still troubles me. We are taller than other nations. We see further and then we have this sort of self-imposed Duty to be on guard every place in the world where the only nation in the world which keeps troops all around the globe on foreign soil 250,000 Americans still out there armed and ready if this is our role and if we are the nation responsible for maintaining Tranquility if I can use that word then we had no option here is a man or an organization saying we will impose our will through Terror through cowardly acts of indiscriminate destruction. And if the superpower doesn't respond, then we're exposed as a hollow shell and Sounding board the point I come back to is we always have a choice as to whether we want to be on guard all around the world and we want to be the nation charged with the responsibility to answer and end. Direct Force against people who would disturb the world Community. I noticed the Egyptian government today said that the United Nations should take action against terrorism. What was that? Very nice. If the United States has ever permitted the UN to develop the capability to take action, but the United States and Soviet Union during the Cold War undercut made the UN essentially irrelevant to the East-West confrontation. So they never developed the institutional capacity the leadership in the procedures to act in situations like this so that the UN response at this time is not an option. I think it should be in the future. But at this point, is there any other alternative than the US essentially acting alone in these matters? Not in a prompt and responsive way to particular provocations having acted alone in this particular situation we should in. No way think we've solved any problems. We have anything if anything have accentuated this. Isolated roll we've assumed this Authority and responsibility to act militarily on our own initiative and that in turn is going to inflame and Inspire terrorist activities elsewhere. I'm highly confident as a practical matter sir, the cruise missile attacks launched yesterday are are they likely going to be effective in the sense? Seriously disrupting this terrorist Network that we are about partly an actual injury imposed a lessening of the capability organization, but it's probably more symbolic symbol of our reach and power warning them. That there is a cost that they're going to pay for such activities in the future. I think the the rage were more warnings than reprisals but there was an element of both in the in the activity last night President Clinton said they indeed that one of the reasons the US launch these attacks was in response to the Embassy bombings. But also he said that the US had the firm evidence that this network was planning a few other strikes against the US targets and that the the cruise missile attacks were meant as a kind of pre-emptive action beautiful as they would be effective in preventing those planned attacks on us facilities. They have said there's a cost to pay they've inflicted injury and and weaken their current capabilities. But if history is any guide of the movement the idea that is expressed by these groups will go on and it will simply needed see it appear in other places at other times. I I think that our government was very wise and putting out the word on a worldwide basis that we should increase our security measures every place that the American presence is identify label. These are the people who are in the most exposed edge of this confrontation between the superpower and the forces of Terror. President Clinton and other Administration officials yesterday said that there is a big difference between responding to state-sponsored terrorism. And now these freelance International networks, and they said there were a lot because of that there were a lot that they were letting there was a lot of information they couldn't release the public and so on so forth. Can you explain briefly what the difference is in terms of how we how the US would respond to a terrorist incident. I'm having a little trouble with state-sponsored terrorism when there is a train of evidence that says this act originated by the authority and with the support of a government then enables you to focus your response your reprisal or action, whatever it may be against the state. That extent you might be contemplating a much broader and more. Expensive campaign to dissuade the state in the case of these transnational terrorist groups which gained their financing from various sources, but can't be identified with tefron or Baghdad or AAA. You have to focus your response on what is exposed the case of the training camps and headquarter facilities in Afghanistan, and that's exactly what we hit I don't and I do understand why they're not willing to release any information about how they gathered this intelligence that would compromise the future efforts to do to prepare the same. Response, we're talking to shower with retired Admiral at Eugene Carroll deputy director of the center for defense information in Washington DC or told the National Security advisor. Sandy Berger is going to be making a statement shortly here on the US attacks that I would launched against those terrorist or alleged terrorist facilities in Afghanistan and Sudan and if all goes according to plan we will let hear from mr. Burger and also lots of callers on the line before we get to those collars Admiral. Do you have the sense that there is any kind of does the u.s. Have any long-range strategy against terrorism keep hearing about well, this is a new form of warfare. And these people have declared war on the United States. So on so forth does the country have any kind of strategy to respond? I'm afraid the answer to that is a fairly positive know our idea of National Security today is embodied in preparations for World War 3 against the major power. We're not spending 270 billion dollars this year getting ready to deal with terrorists in in Afghanistan and not spend any part of that book of that money goes into preparing for a major World War 3 Type confirmation. So the first answers were not doing a very good job of preparing to deal with this very diffuse threat of the second part of the answer is is there a military means to prepare for it and the answer is largely. No again. These attacks these acts of barbaric Terror A rise out of convictions of very dedicated people. They may be friends. They may be ritual lunatics as far as we're concerned here in the United States, but the fact is they exist and they're motivated by certain problems one is poverty. Most of these people who are active grow out of very very deprived settings where they don't have enough to eat enough to wear and enough to house them. And so they're willing to be radical root causes our are so how do we Eagle balance out the wealth of the world Lieutenant General Patrick Hughes, the director of the defense intelligence agency of the United States armed forces testified to Congress last year that one of the dangers facing the United States was the disparity of wealth in the world that there were pockets of poverty. So deep and intense that they were going to produce exactly these kinds of situations and we're not doing much at all to deal with that problem. The last point I would make is that we are the super power and we are omnipresent in the world that were visible when I travel I'm almost chagrined to see all of the evidence of the United States values and culture McDonald's and music and clothing in our standards of entertainment imposed upon societies. And in some cases are very resistant to it. I think that motivates some part of the action in the Middle East. There's too many Americans around and there are two dominant in business in the culture in the Entertainment and and there is this thing it by what we consider to be totally inappropriate means but it's their only means of saying get away get out leave us alone and let us have our own Society our own culture. Retired Admiral Eugene. Carol is with us from the center for defense information and Washington. Also joining us now is a Minnesota Congressman Jim movistar afternoon Congressman. Good afternoon, Gary. What's your sense of Congress generally lined up behind the president on this issue with the Admirals comments are certainly on On Target in there is a great deal of resentment among the Islamic interests, especially the extremist groups against what they perceive is overwhelming American interest in their region and impact on their region and on their culture that the French Canadians feel the same about the impact of the English speaking Canadians an English-speaking Americans. They going to blow up our buildings the Members of Congress who have been informed and and who are looking at this matter objectively are very much in support of the president there one or two exceptions of people like Senator Specter of Pennsylvania who took a partisan cheap shot, but the rest especially led by Speaker Gingrich have taken a very responsible position in support of the of the president. They recognize that if we don't take this action, if we have credible information about an imminent threat in approximate opportunity to deal with devastating blow against these terrorist organizations and do not act we would be remiss derelict and held accountable at it another time for not defending aggressively America's interest. Is there any question in your mind about the president's motivate? And here there has been as you well know speculation that the reason he ordered these attacks was to divert attention from the Lewinsky doesn't respect you're fired in and there's no basis for this decision has been a Republican president. He would have been in total support no matter what the surrounding circumstances and if the president has this information and did not order the strike because of fear that people might see it in the wrong light and 6 months from now the information comes up we had the time the opportunity to strike the same Senators the same voices of dissent would have been calling for the president's hide for not acting at an appropriate time to can't have it both ways. This this information has been available for weeks. The strike has been in the planning stage. It was now the appropriate time. It was determined by military necessity not by. Let domestic political situation are we in General Sir, too quick to use military force in response to these kinds of situations. We've been too slow too hesitant to act their there's been deliberation United States use the enormous the restraint in the. Prior to the invasion of Iraq in that case. I was for exercising even further restraint and we have used the great restraint in other parts of the world where American interests are at stake preferring diplomacy over military attack including most recently in Iraq where we gathered the forces and in Iraq back down. I think we showed great restraint in that situation in this circumstance. I would draw on my experience as Chair of the aviation subcommittee and having written off of the Aviation Security laws that now protect us and served on the presidential commission on Aviation Security in terrorism, the Pan Am 103 commission where we learned over the 9 months of our investigations that drawing on the information of all of our national television sources, you have to have aggressive intelligence-gathering through satellite over flights and human intelligence sources to be predictive of terrorist activities. And secondly when you have gathered the information you need for that the nation needs about terrorist activities have to strike decisively with overwhelming force and leave no mistake of the terrorist Minds about the will the political will of the United States to protect itself and its citizen. At home and abroad after all we are an open Society. We are vulnerable to attack and they're the only message the terrorist understand is decisive response. Thank you. I appreciate your joining us are joining us from Washington retired Admiral Eugene. Carol is with us deputy director of the center for defense information. We're expecting a statement soon from Washington from National Security advisor, Sandy Berger on yesterday's u.s. Cruise missile attack against suspected terrorists sites in Afghanistan and Sudan. And again, if you would like to join our conversation this our number to call in the Twin Cities to 276 thousand or 1 800 to +422-828-227-6102 for 2 to 8 to 8 before we get to our first caller hear Admiral. I want to go back to This business of why it is that people seem or at least some people seem to be so upset with the United States around the world and you were talking about the in part about the overwhelming influence of American culture around the world at any anything we keep hearing about the fact that we have troops in Saudi Arabia and that is upsetting a lot of people lying. Why is that so upsetting to two some of these folks? Primarily because of cultural differences we treat our people particularly are women in the certain ways of allegedly. We give them full equality and culture out. There is quite different. They see us more or compromising their values by our presence and example, there is also a factor that we haven't mentioned yet United States throughout the Middle East is seen as the protector and supporter of the state of Israel. We are the friends of the Zionist the allies of the Zionist and there is a distinct even and chronic resistance to US policies and actions on that basis alone so you can buy in cultural differences in the political differences and you do have a fairly strong and I American bias in the more extreme groups in that region or scholar is from Maple Grove eye you go ahead place. Hello. Yes. Go ahead. Okay. First of all, I must say that I condemn that the most of them all form of violence are Godless was the perpetrator of such a crime or whether it's in Tanzania king or anywhere in the world. And I think if this ad for credit indeed by Muslims it did it would harm the car and the grievance of the Muslim people around the world who do have some legitimate grievance that the mainstream have so far failed to articulate this grievance to the west states for the Arab. Last bowel syndrome disease particularly their support of Israel and the alarm. Patient to continue and they're dragging their foot in the peace process without achieving anything just forwarded Palestinian. So if this actually committed by this. I think it set us back or side of the story of State for the respond with these attacks before it concludes its investigation. I think it's also hurt their interest in the Middle East which they have a big influence among the Muslim nations of the Middle East and concerns concerns and try to contain the Rockies and from producing girl supposedly weapons of mass destruction, and now they Benefit from this incident sticker. It's not just attacked. Every Arab and Muslim country is on the list and you'll see a dark season. That was the word. This action will be very evident. And I want you to respond on that. I think he's coming up here shortly. But that comment on the collars comments points of view on this we see ourselves as the finest nation in the world. I am honored and privileged to live in the United States of America and be an American and I don't want to change our system but elsewhere in the world that they don't necessarily want to adopt it and they don't want to accept our values and our culture and the so the resistance's is Deep whatever happened to this new world order that we were supposed to be enjoying by now set in after the Cold War just asked the Helms about that. He is no more interested in a new world order than then he's interested in Monica Lewinsky. He wants the United States to be number one to call the shots to run the show and the UN is an abomination in his mind and that's why we are seeing the UN weekend and unable to act in the burden-shifting to us and we're going to go off to Washington now for mr. Burger National Security advisor Sandy. That was him. for roughly an hour to discuss both the operation yesterday and the overall effort to combat terrorism internationally. The in terms of assessing the impact or damage that was caused by yesterday's tax. We know first that the so-called pharmaceutical company in Sudan was functional destroyed. Weather spec to the terrorist camps in Afghanistan the assessment of damage has been hampered by for weather conditions in the Target area is there are some parts of these camps that are not visible by a national means but to the extent are military intelligence people can make these judgments at this point. They would their conclusion is that the camps which comprise the coast complex as a stain moderate to severe damage the attacks have significantly disrupted the capability to use these camps as terrorist training facilities. We will have obviously in the next few days more and more refined information with respect to to those up. Camps in respect to the two what the impact of the strikes yesterday were the President also has made us as a secretary of state and other series of phone calls to foreign leaders present spoken to a present bar. the president and prime minister Blair you spoke this morning prime minister Sharif prime minister Netanyahu and the vice president and the secretary of state has spoken to quite a number of other other foreign leaders. As I said, we also talked about maintaining and intensified effort to combat this threat of terrorism. We have been building that after 4 sometime in a number of respects president is your call has spoken about it at the United Nations spoke about it in Annapolis last year trying to raise this issue to the top of the international agenda. We have strengthened number of our laws with respect to terrorist organizations. We have intensified. Our intelligence capability are kind of terrorism capabilities that other area in the last five years. We have apprehended about 40 terrorists that were around the world. Brought them to justice some after periods as long as 12 years. So we will continue that effort and continue to carry on this battle against the scourge of terrorism. What do you know about Osama Bin Laden and his whereabouts and if I cannot confirm his whereabouts by mistake National Security advisor Sandy Berger meeting briefly with reporters the White House. So taking some questions now, but briefly a reporting that the fight against terrorism will continue Admiral Carroll. Have we been at all successful in in coming to grips with this threat On a case-by-case basis for our intelligence is permitted us to react in the timely fashion. Yes, we have undoubtedly headed off other catastrophes and and disrupted terrorist activities before they took form but the longer-term problem. We haven't come to grips with we are not looking for the day when perhaps we won't be the world's only superpower when we won't have the means of being on guard and responding every place and that's the problem. I see that is being ignored. I mean just throw out a point here. We apparently used around 75 tomahawk missiles. These are a little pilot was airplanes with a thousand pound explosive package on the nose those cost about a hundred million dollars. That's one thrust one blow against terrorism, which as mr. Burger said we may have disrupted their ability to train and prepare but that isn't for a moment going to stop the the acts of terrorism nor the ability to recruit more people to the cause without dealing with the root problems the disparity in wealth The Clash of cultures. The sense that the United States is attempting to impose its will and its values on other nations. Those are the root causes in the only long-term approach that will. Offer any hope in the future. How about just saying the heck with it and essentially backing off and governments always have options and depending in our system on the will of the people we might Retreat into a form of isolationism, but I don't think so. I don't think the American people want to go that way and in some respects. It's impossible. Our economy is global. Our Communications are Global transportation is global environment is global. We're going to have to remain directly and actively engaged in the world Community. The issue is what form does that engagement take? And right now it is overwhelmingly military. We gave 250,000 Americans are armed and ready to do these sorts of things around. All the time, and then the rest of the world doesn't necessarily welcome our presence or our actions as being motivated by pure idealism. They see us as promoting us interest by aggression, and that's why we have to go with this problem. What is our role in the world community and how best to pursue it in the future retired Admiral Eugene Carroll deputy director of the center for defense information joining us this hour from Washington. Also joining us now as former Ambassador Bruce Lang and currently the president of the American Academy of diplomacy and Washington Ambassador Lang and who is in Olden Minnesota native was in charge of the US Embassy in Tehran when it raining in Revolutionary sees the embassy back in 1979 and 52 other Americans were held hostage for 444 days afternoon Ambassador. Do you see this message? Strike as a failure of us diplomacy a failure to find some other way to deal with the world other than in terms of military force. spell. Coping with the treasure terrorism we have on the way to do it. I don't disagree with much of what that mouth Carolyn said except to the extent that I think we are doing. In the field of diplomacy in terms of economic aid, and that's where the thing that we need to carry out an effective foreign aid program. That's the bottom line. I agree with cat Admiral care of and respect that diplomacy. That timer people-to-people contact has to be always on the front line. Is there any way to dealer to negotiate if you will with these terrorists themselves the terrorist networks or if he is responsible for this latest outrage in Nairobi end. That's the kind of mentality that is negotiable. But in terms of government fight this effort cannot be fought Alone by the United States ever got the hearing. I haven't gotten any details on it that President Nelson is against our policy. Should we have spent more time Consulting with our allies and trying to convince him of the merits of this. It seems like that. This is the kind of attack that if you're going to conduct it that carry it out. You need to move when the time is right and and There's no need to strike now because there was an urgency involved in this matter further to fax through. My intelligence is pretty damn good on that was believed to be in danger. There was also this report of a massive Gathering of characters working with Ben Laden three-day conference or something was also involved in someone's awesome opportunity to Are y'all useful strike in that context? Sometimes you don't have time for an act like this is okay fine. What's next? What do we do do we put this kind of thing from happening again? I was in the strengthening our embassies and what you got to do, but that's not the answer any suggestions for ingestion. So as to why do we do next other than strengthening the embassies? We have a very considerable complex of the international conventions agreement. We need the United Nations General Assembly coming up for the leaders of the world together including the new president of Iran is coming there and it's not bad. Welcome. If I'm sure the Admiral did the some indication from them in the immediate aftermath of the Nairobi and the statement from them condemning it. I think they had to do that. I think altamese heart is in the right place on that particular effort on his part. Unfortunately, of course, he's not alone in Tehran in general Mister Ambassador. You think the Clinton Administration has developed an effective response to terrorism around the world. I can't speak to that. I'm not directly engaged on the face of it in terms of the way the FED continues to manifest manifest itself in this terrible way. We obviously haven't done as much as we should but that's an easy thing saying I would think the administration is doing as well as its predecessors. in this area that was right and putting a lot of emphasis on the need to bill the kind of world in which this kind of Ellen's this kind of threat this kind of access. Terms of the abuse of Human Rights doesn't curve. Long way coming down the road to us. We're not anywhere near that point yet. I hope Ben we just take the point. I hope weed lean hard on the Taliban in ways that we can that outfit and I agree foremost me and myself and my family lived three years in Afghanistan get the warmest feelings for the people of that country this kind of kind of tragedy top of the twenty years now terrible tragedy that Afghanistan this experience this painful. The taliban's now has virtual control of the country. They want International recognition. There's a moment could not get it from us. We can get we have some leverage in that respect until they do something themselves about providing. refuge for someone and a group like bin Laden Well, thank you so much for joining a sir. I really appreciate it and bassador Bruce Langan joining us from the Washington DC area master Lang and is now the president of the American Academy of diplomacy in Washington supposed to do the Did we buy a late international law by launching this attack? Certainly The Afghani in the Sudanese of charge that the others have suggested that we violate international law. First let me say I certainly appreciated hearing and bass are laying in the observations. He comes at the problem with tremendous depth of experience in that part of the world and in these issues and I help needed by his inside as far as violation of international law. We claim our our Statement is that under article 51 of the UN Charter. We exercise the right of self-defense and that gives us the authority to strike at. Persons or organizations threatening our security the way we did it was. Marginal in that we had to violate the territorial sovereignty authority of the government of Pakistan the people of Pakistan we we did it. We we simply asserted the right to intrude on their territory and their Authority in order to execute our strike. I don't think that that is a gross violation of international law, but it's going to produce a protest from Pakistan in part because they need to do so politically within the Islamic community on the other hand. I've heard one report that one of our Thistles actually landed in Pakistan not all guided missiles are properly guided and perhaps one went astray and has caused an injury to Pakistan Pakistan has not retracted that place they have good if there were no no missiles Landing in Pakistan one other thought along these lines. So the Administration has made a point of emphasizing that Afghanistan and Sudan the two Nations that were aware the sites were tagged both have been warned over and over again to stop harboring this bin Laden is that in anyway, give the us more justification for launching these attacks in the in terms of international law. Yes, it does. If you have exhausted your non-violent means your your diplomatic Avenues and have had no positive response. Then it confers upon you an additional authority to protect your own interest. This is so Arcane that I hesitate to hand down any any judgment, but the fact is if we were urging the proper authority to act and they failed to do so Nation can act and its own interest Iowa, very gratuitously. If you want to worry about violation of international law. All you have to do is look back at operation. Just cause in which we sent 35,000 troops to Panama to capture Manuel Noriega. There was a grotesque and a very violent violation of many elements of international law. I just thought it would like to say that I question the motives of this whole thing. I think if you remember in Khobar Saudi Arabia two years ago when when the embassy Was bombed in 19 were killed nothing was done in this regard he wal so when it was exploded over New York year ago and they still don't have an exact idea what the deal is and listen 2 weeks here and we see this bonding of two countries Afghanistan in Sudan, which I feel is basically to divert the attention of the public to this matter and instead of going ski, Jennifer and Paula Jones cases. We keep hearing a lot of that. Let's look at another thing General Shelton, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff was thoroughly convinced of the necessity of this operation. He was aided by professional Associates senior ones very knowledgeable ones and I'll guarantee you that if there was no Case for this attack if there was no military and intelligence justification, I think we would have seen his resignation. He would have simply refused the orders of the commander-in-chief and requested relief from his duties. So I'm I take Assurance from the responsible execution of the plan by the professional military that it was well justified in current terms, Mike your question place twice about you is support for Israel. I just said that the relationship was strong and will stay that way and it has been alleged on this program as well. I don't understand why and I challenged NPR to initiate a good discussion about the special relationship. Alright United States is the guarantor of the state of Israel. It is a fact of life which has long president. If you wish to change this it has to be changed in the Democratic process through action of the American people. I I agree with a collar that it is a factor in these terrorist acts in the Middle East but it isn't anything that we're going to change simply by saying that's the problem of make it go away. I was going to say if if we did say that tomorrow and essentially dropped our support for Israel. I could we don't assume that the all terrorist activities against the US would cease and That would be the end of it. No, not at all. We have this very visceral reaction to the presence of Americans in large numbers, you know that one of the radical organizations, which has been accused of violence is the organization to defend the holy places of Islam and then they are very resentful and critical of our continuing presence in Saudi Arabia and defiling their their holy places so simply Stating that the United States is going to allow Israel to act on its own and then we will not be associated with them is not in any way going to change the attitude toward Americans on this emotional level one of the comments that you always here when these kinds of military strikes are launched and I guess more so with the with cruise missile attacks, which art is always as accurate as they might be is the civilian casualties the other people to get the hurt in these missions. Would it be better if we're going to do this sort of thing forgot to take of a sunburn launch. I'm going to response to mr. Bin Laden to try to arrest him send in a Culver team of some sort you I see in the movies and and they would spirit this man back to the United States for trial Well, it's Grand in the in a scenario. We have this team of a very effective clandestine operators who are smuggled into the vicinity and capture the the miscreant but it works a lot better than movies and it does in real life certainly Ambassador Lang and could talk to this issue in terms of the desert One mission that we've sent into what it ran in the late 70s. I don't think it's within our capabilities to locate him and dispatch a team over hundreds of miles to capture him and extract him. Should we lift another thing that's come up in the last day or so another call for lifting the executive order which bands the United States from assassinating people. Would that be a good idea to lift that ban? So that a person like Osama Bin Laden would realize that he himself may have to pay the ultimate price for these kinds of activities and this is very sensitive issue in terms of American values and they support of the American public when that ban went into effect. There was a great outcry over the revelations that the CIA had actually engaged in assassination programs and the authority was withdrawn and once again, I don't think it should be changed to the assassination ban lifted without Thorough airing of the issues for the public I assume we can expect further retaliatory tax no against us interest. Yes, not tomorrow or not next week, but I have no doubt that there is a great deal of planning already underway in the reaction or no reaction are but radical Community looking for the next Target of opportunity. And by the way, those targets of opportunity are going to be Americans and American interests all over the globe. We might be able to make fortresses out of our embassies they give enough money in enough time, but there is any way we can protect all the Americans who are out there engaged in conversation and academic activities are these folks sophisticated sophisticated enough to attack targets here in the United States proper code for the reason that the targets were hit in Kenya and Tanzania was that they were accessible that they had that they terrorists had resources that they could apply there. It's a lot harder to create resources and apply them in the in the United States, although not impossible as they New York incident demonstrated finally Admiral is there any reason to believe that any good will come of any of this? I hope that it will force an examination of the u.s. Role in the world the cost of our role as the world's superpower and the primary authority to maintain order in the world has gone up gone up dramatically and that cost will not only be in dollars. But in blood I think we ought to look at the future and decide whether the United States can hope can even hope to maintain this primary Reliance on military power Sr. Tool in the world's Affairs and forcing examination of Alternatives that on the long-term will be much more constructive and productive. Thank you so much for joining us air. Appreciate it. Thank you for calling us all retired retired Admiral Eugene Carroll deputy director of the center for defense information. in Washington, DC That does it for our mid-day program today like to thank all of you who been listening this our those of you have been waiting patiently on the phones. We appreciate your calling in reminder that programming and issues concerning families and children is supported by the Edward are bazinet Foundation. That is all for today's midday program the producer of our program Sarah Meyer. We had out this week from John Gordon Gretchen Lyman Steve Griffith and Melanie Sommer. I'm Gary I can thanks for tuning in and we hope you'll be able to tune in on Monday. Labyrinths are offering modern Seekers what ancient people sought answers peace and sometimes the Divine will visit St. Paul Labyrinth on the next All Things Considered weekdays at 3 on Minnesota Public Radio Kano W FM 91.1 You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. We have a sunny Sky. It's up to 80 degrees now at Kennedy FM 91.1 Minneapolis. And st. Paul should be sunny all afternoon with a high in the mid-80s mother 5 degrees or so increasing Clyde Aniston item by Tomorrow. There's a 60% chance for showers and thunder showers in the Twin Cities rain is likely on Sunday as well.