Like Tim 6 minutes past 11 programming in Minnesota Public Radio is supported by Glenwood Inglewood water clean fresh pure and plenty of it home and office delivery available. 37422 5 3 and good morning. Welcome to mid-day on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten. Glad you could join us. Well, in case you missed it the same Paul's school system does not have a new superintendent steadley Saint Paul school board will stick with an interim superintendent for another year or so and reopen it search for a permanent superintendent board members voted 5-2 last night to keep looking after a Citizens panel fail to endorse either of the board's two finalists. The delay will cost the district more money this hour, we're going to take a closer look at the board's decision and what it means for the Saint Paul schools. First of the first of all the weather report on the boards action. Here is Minnesota public radio's Tim pugmire Saint Paul School Board began its search for a new District leader last winter when Kerman Gaines announced he'd be leaving June 30th after seven years was the superintendent to take a private-sector job the board formed a superintendent search advisory committee and appointed former mayor George Latimer to leave the sea. Group, the committee spent months talking with various interest groups about the vacancy and interviewing the candidates a day after deliberations on the two finalists Latimer presented the committee's recommendation to the board. We concluded that you should choose neither candidate and that you should renew the search the finalists Robert gilpatrick of Wisconsin and Penelope, Joe kleinhans of Massachusetts are currently superintendents of districts much smaller than Saint Paul Latimer praise both for strong leadership skills, but said neither is a good match for Saint Paul. We have a tendency when we choose people at any level. To always think in terms of best better or lesser and I would argue that that's the wrong barometer to use what we're really talking about here is what fits best. It might well mean that someone would be excellent at one time in our history but not in another Latimer says the size of the finalists current districts were not a factor. But Committee Member Vicki Davis was among those raising concern about the candidates lack of experience with racially diverse populations. We're staying at the experiences represented by the people who were the final two candidates Warren divorce enough to engender confidence that the needs of the respective communities would be addressed School Board vice-chairman Greg Feliz says, he was enthusiastic about both finalists until hearing the committee's recommendations. He says he thinks both finalists are well qualified but could not lead without Rod Community Support police questioned whether the search process with its battery of public interviews is too tough, and I think I have to ask with the very high expectations. We had whether it's possible for a human being to come through it and have the kind of consensus. We wanted School Board chairwoman. Mary Thornton Phillips says she thinks the search was flawed from the beginning because of its late start also a state law limiting superintendent salaries has now been repealed and she says Saint Paul can now offer a more competitive salary Phillips says the new search will not start from scratch. We don't need to do the surveys. We don't need to have the focus groups. We don't have to have the meetings at the high schools. We don't need to send out all the communications that we have sent out. We don't need to convene The Advisory committees that we have in the same way in order to get the criteria. We know what the community wants and we can proceed now, so we're much farther ahead than we were when we started the first process officials estimate the superintendent search is cost $80,000. Phillip says many of those expenses won't be repeated during the reopen search. The district officials say it's now unlikely that Saint Paul will have a new superintendent before July 1999 school board members will begin discussing their next step in reopening the search in a meeting Monday night. I'm Tim pugmire Minnesota Public Radio, which one is not a talk some more about the Sioux Falls School Board decision, and the some larger education issues is the chair of the school board Mary Thornton Phillips. Also joining us is former st. Paul Mayor George Latimer Hooch are the citizens advisory committee, and we invite you to join our conversation as well. If you got a question or comment about the search for a new superintendent in st. Paul get us a call or Twin City area number is 227-6002. 276 Thousand Oaks. I'd the Twin Cities 1 800 to +422-828-227-6000 or one 802-4228 to a nice coming in today. I was going to be here Gary. How important is a superintendent. What are they actually do that provides the day-to-day leadership off of school district. The school board is the one that sets the policy but the chief administrator is the superintendent the superintendent has major responsibility for visibility of the school district outside of the school district and dealing with various constituencies such as the business Community parents of District supporters of just people who live in St. Paul also with legislators are with foundations with people in Washington + working with his or her team to make sure the system operates well on a day-to-day basis for possible to have a good school system without a good superintendent or conversely to have a great superintendent the Rotten School, System, Georgia. I think for a while we can get away with either I've often argued that Minnesota is such a basically strong and healthy place. We can survive all kinds of elected officials including yours truly. Seriously. There is nothing more important to our cities in choosing a good superintendent. I daresay it is the most important thing not just at the school board can do that. We can do more important than anything else we do this year is choosing the right superintendent that person is not going to do it on her own or on his own but that person if it to the extent that that person can connect up with the whole Community really share the aspirations agree on a fairly short list of goals so that everybody knows what it is and get the whole community business neighborhoods ethnic groups Church, everyone. Involved. I think St. Paul is poised to do really great things and more importantly. It's urgent that we do great things because with all the good graduates we get and all the good success. We have we all know that there are too many kids that were not reaching effectively in I think we can do it until William Larson is the interim superintendent. There has been is he going to stay on for the full length of this new search superintendent? We had not put a deadline on that amount of time because it would have depended on when the superintendent if one has been chosen would have been able to arrive so it was open-ended and now he will just still be there on an open-ended basis probably until July one when we would expect to have a new superintendent in place. He is one who has a great deal of experience in St. Paul well-respected. He is real The assistant superintendent for finance for our district and to show you how well he does. We've gotten very good ratings from Standard & Poor's and Moody's every time we go to New York. So he he doesn't an excellent job any chance. He might just be named permanent superintendent be done with it. I don't think so. He has made it very clear that he's not interested in the job. What went wrong with the search nothing. It was a good process. I think a self-confident community. I have to include let's look further as one of the options and to reach back to Bill Larson for a moment, please and I say this without any vested interest because marry a Doctor Phillips in the rest of the board have chosen the Acting Superintendent, but I've observed him but more than that. I've listened to community groups. Listen everybody report the man has broad support. Not merely for finance, but trusted trusted is a word that keeps being given to me and I'm trying to tell you that if I felt that an immediate change was needed. I would have had more pressure on us to choose someone other than what we would think would be a really good fit. But I think I won't try to speculate about the timing of I are the rest but Mary Phillips if the listeners remember the last quote in the news report appreciated our interview by Mary Phillips made a statement that I think really applies and that is we're not back to where we started. We are much further ahead. We have learned a lot through the community that the board last night really the first board meaning of attended foot in 25 years. That's the last one that I had to attend because I was a board member and the board is really unified around the best thing I can do for the kids. I think we're in Hoist in a great shape, I really do believe that. This is not been wasted and I think with good management already there with a board having experienced an examination of more than a hundred people. We just looked at the two that were presented to us. I think we're going to do very well and I'm optimistic. I'm going to volunteer a few things. That's a luxury you have when you're a citizen and NADA not elected official School Board member, so I'll be I'll be giving Mary Phillips and everybody a lot of advice and putting right now, I think this place is a great place to be in education and I hope Mary and the other board members will will really actively go out and and find people and invite them in as well and not just wait for a formal process to get started again. What do you think you're going to get that many more candidates are better candidates the second time around to get a nationwide search after all in and you had a long list of people who at least we're somewhat interested. Yes, but I think we not only are at a different place because of what we've done and with our community and having all of the excellent input from Mary Latimer and The Advisory Group and the many other individuals who participate in the process. We are a different place because we're more competitive as far as being able to offer compensation packages, especially as far as salaries are concerned. So when we go out this time, we won't be hindered. We will be competitive. Secondly. We're starting early a time during the year what that means and I I II I can't undervalue the importance of this it it has to be Difficult for school district Personnel to change and make a decision about moving towards the end of the summer. They try very hard if they know they're going to apply for a different job probably move to a different state sell their homes pull their kids out of school cuz they like to know that by the end of the school year or prior to the end of the school year because we started late it was towards the end of January when a doctor games decided he was going to resign and take her to a job in Private Industry there for our process didn't really start until February by then. There were at least 10 urban districts, is that had vacancies and they were already out there recruiting and they were offering better compensation packages that we could offer. We were hampered by having a cap on the superintendent salary across the state not just for Saint Paul and it was based on the governor salary 95% of Salary which met the maximum amount you could at I have with $114,000. That was that's no longer true that has been changed. We went to the legislature. We made our case and legislature passed the law and the governor side. It was very pleased and very grateful for that that for them signing it and seeing that we needed to be more competitive. We're talking a shower about the search for a new Saint Paul school superintendent to joining us this hour of the chair of the Saint Paul School Board. Mary Thornton Phillips former mayor, George Latimer is with us. He chaired the citizens advisory committee set up to help the board find a candidate the new superintendent you'd like to join our conversation. Give us a call or Twin City area number is 227-6002 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll-free at one eight hundred to +422-828-227-6000 or one 800-242-2828 the board voting last night to reopen the search for superintendent the two finalists or in town this week going through a long long series of interviews and finally the advisory committee and the board decided that it was time to look for tomorrow finalists. Now board member Alaric like says that you folks should should make sure you find Nationally recognized expert reading between the lines. I read that to mean a big name a well-known name. Is that essential in your mind? I don't believe it's essential if I we can attract someone who is nationally known that would be fine. Because apparently that person will have proven himself or herself on a national stage. I believe there are others who are making big differences in their school districts who have a fine track record in improving test scores, which is something that we looking for and how many times those are the assistant superintendents who have not moved to the National stage left yet, but they know the nitty-gritty of how to get things done and how to make turn around in a school district. I'm looking more for someone who is able to come in and lead a very diverse complex School District such as St. Paul. Also, we are in a period of rather rapid change. We need someone who is able not only to deal with the change that is occurring that we don't have control over but how to be a change agent to meet the guy. Pools that we set so there we need to look at the same criteria when we go out and not just for a national name but making sure that this person this individual fits the needs of the children in st. Paul Minneapolis field. It's a superintendent vacancy fairly quickly here just a little while ago turn to the West won district. There was a candidate right in St. Louis Park and under the care of the job immediately terrific tips to put too much emphasis on these National searches, isn't it? Likely will be somebody right around town here that would be able to do the job. I absolutely agree with you and Mary Phillips has not given me any further authorization or charge to do anyting but if I could get Carol Johnson come to st. Paul I'd do it tomorrow. She's terrific and that's exactly the point you make and the point frankly that the committee made an owl or twig in the end the board made in that is You can draft the greatest criteria in the world and it shouldn't be limited to what town a person came from big or small District or any of that. It's someone who events Tuesday a confidence who Who develops a at who who conveys a sense of energy and focus that is connected with the environment right here in st. Paul that inspires confidence in for mobilize a whole community. And when you when you see that person it could come in any color size or shape or gender or any size town, but we're going to get there so I don't make a comment about taking someone locally. We did even we didn't even go to another District when we appointed LS school superintendent. Dr. Gaines had been in this district for over 20 years. He was well known he had held a number of positions teacher assistant principal. Sensible working in the district office all the way up to assistant commissioner. I I believe in charge of finance and some other duties plus he had been a Deputy Commissioner in the Department of Education and worked in human rights. So he knew the state very well. You knew the district very well. So we didn't when we appointed doctor games. We can even go outside of our own School District. We just I say we taking large community. I wasn't really on the school board at the time but we selected someone who was right there at 360 Colborne and he did an excellent job for us for a 7 years. So what you do when you're looking for a superintendent, do you may look in many different ways and we didn't have but one individual that I'm aware of who applied and she applied here and also for a school superintendent see in Massachusetts and he rose again the lateness of our process. She might have been what about Louis I don't know I'm talking about May Gaskins was one of our assistant superintendents was very well respected. But when the offer came we had probably another when the offer came from Massachusetts for her to become superintendent, we had oh, maybe another two months before we complete our process and she had applied but then she was Drew and she took the other offer. We're talking this out more about the search for a new Saint Paul school superintendent. Again, if you'd like to join our conversation to 276 thousand to 276 thousand or one 802-4228 to a jackal head place. Thank you for taking my call. I have a question about the process of selection. I wonder if somebody can explain to me how how good a process can be that takes. The time that it took and only when the two finalists who were finally in place, did someone realize O Mine either one of these folks has large District experience wasn't that something that should have dawned on someone somewhat earlier in the process? Well marry, I'm sure has a fuller answer but let me say that no one I was involved with made their decision based on the fact that the candidates had not been in a big city district that have been talked about but what we talked about and what determined our judgment was capacity and my own committee made clear to me that when I reported to the board I should make it clear that it was not because they were not from a large District that they were not chosen but rather we were looking for that set of characteristics and qualities that would demonstrate their ability to handle it. So I I don't think I would want to turn my back on someone merely because they came from a small District when I was on the school board. We had George Jung would come from Canton Ohio, which is smaller, but he's been a good Sheriff at this time in Gallup, New Mexico, which is very small but that was no barrier to his growth and I agreed with most of the comments last night that we have to look for the capacity to grow. Not merely look for a big-name who's in place in a big city and could very well be like me past his his prime show the I would also like to respond to that. It wasn't a key factor in our decision-making. We we had known from the very beginning. They were from small school districts. If we hadn't seen the possibilities in these well really five individuals and only one was from a truly large school district that we had a semifinalist before we reduced to 2/5. And I think your question is then why were they in the finalists group even though they were from small District? See if there are those we have that concern we felt that we saw possibility. Is there a capacity that they might have because they had an excellent track record where they were they were very strong people. They were principled. They were well-educated they had had more than one experience as a superintendent. We felt that there was a possibility as they went through talking to various groups Union students teachers the advisory committee that they would show that they could have a vision for a school district starts his St. Paul and that they would share what they could do and how they can bring the community together. We didn't hear very much of that. These were very well respected people. Who have done outstanding work nnn? Are there other districts each of them had more than one superintendency experience. I believe one has about had about 18 and the other one they had about 10 or 12 years of experience. So well experienced people. I believe the quality was there that their principles were right, but then once they came in and talked to all of us we could see that they were not giving us a sense that they had the capacity to look at the broad picture that we have in in St. Paul of diversity of the economics of dealing with the legislature many kinds of skills that they would have shown us that they had great possibility and we could have built enthusiasm and passion for them and it wouldn't have mattered whether they came from the small District or not. Given the emphasis on diversity in the changing demographics of the school system. How important is race in deciding who you want to be a superintendent. Would it would you prefer not to have a white person? Feel this job now? I don't think that I don't think that it is appointed off. I think that you need someone who events has a an ability to relate to all the cultures. This. Just race is not just color but caught the culture as well. By the way, I think one for sure maybe both of those two candidates from small District are where on the short list of Five in Milwaukee where there were a hundred thousand students. So there's no question that the their quality people the question about a fit with our community and we made a a hard judge when the tough judgment that we we we should look further to get the right fit. And and by the way a managing diversity is key but wasn't the only point there are other point, so I'll so we want some One who can talk with specificity not merely General educational theory about what we think what he or she thinks we can do in Saint Paul. We're talking about a management ability to go after that as well. And there are other things other than that managing diversity. They're also important. We also we're a little bit disappointed that we didn't get a more specific kind of programmatic educational set of recommendations from them in the curriculum. I did raise the question to them a favorite of mine is at we know that literacy drive so much of everything else that happens. We know that the prisons are filled mainly with people cannot read and write we know the kids are not going to do well in other courses if they don't get the fundamental tool the key to it. All is Reading in and literacy. And so I asked Give them what about it? Is it is it too big of a dream to say that every single child in St. Paul before graduating from the third grade will know how to read it seems to me that's a level of focus and we know so much about how to teach reading now and how we can produce outcomes it really matter and and not the a patronising kid by saying that some of them don't have to read until there's a 6 / 7th grade. We cannot tolerate that kind of laissez-faire attitude toward individual kids development. So I was looking for that kind of focus and energy it is said we can do this and here's how I would propose to do it and we didn't get that make a comment about your question about whether it should have been person of color as a board. We told our Consultants is that we wanted a divorce pool of candidates. To be to be considered they did that. We had the Varsity Inn in the pool of candidates. We did not choose any one who was a person of color to put in in the finalist because we felt that we had to screen down to find out who we felt at that time based on what we knew by reading their applications by having one-on-one interviews with him who could be in the finest who might be closest to the best fit and it happened to be two individuals who a white one was a woman and one was a man and that was the collective reasoning of the board and it wasn't that we did not consider people of color. We definitely considered people of color and felt even before we got to the finalists that they would not be the fit that we were looking for. So it is well it it would be nice to have it's not a critical point in our decision-making. You want to consider people of all Races, but we will not lose the board was not thinking about picking anyone just because that person with prismacolor recharging the shower about the search for a new Saint Paul school. Superintendent. Our guests Mary Thornton Phillips who is chair of the Saint Paul School Board. George Latimer is with us former mayor of st. Paul. He chaired the citizens advisory committee during the search process again, if you'd like to join our conversation Twin City area number is 227-6002 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828 quick. Look at the weather forecast. We can expect a partly sunny sky for the most part but as usual there is a chance for a shower or thundershower cross. The state high is low 70s to the middle 80s the Twin City forecast of sunshine for the most part. But again chance for some rain later this afternoon with a high in the mid-70s right now. It is exactly in the middle 70s 75 degrees and cloudy in the Twin Cities. Apolinaria reminder over the noon hour today second hour of our midday program. We're going to be playing all of those reports that you've been hearing this week. The governor candidates talk about taxes. They all want to cut your taxes and all say they're going to cut your taxes if if they're elected in November, but of course the devil's in the detail, they all have different plans to do so and we've been hearing these reports all week here and there we're going to put them all together back-to-back so you can compare them and then we'll be opening the phone line. So you'll have an opportunity to react to what you've been here. So the candidates for Governor on taxes coming up over the noon hour that they don't want their taxes cut ejected to actually are we did a program the other day and yes, we did get a we did get a couple of callers who said there's no need for a tax cut that what we need are better service has more money spent on Services only on Minnesota Public Radio. Miss our about to be searched for a Saint Paul school superintendent again, let me give you the phone number. Love to have you join our conversation to 276 thousand or one 800-242-2828 Thomas your next good place to say where you need to go back in and take a look at the other candidates. I think that's a hard thing to do is a difficult job. It's an important job and I applaud both of you for that for the work that you're doing on it. My question has to do with alternatives to a superintendent Minneapolis, of course had the public strategies group working in that capacity for a while. I know that education Alternatives is why there is a a company that does that management does large school districts across the country. Did you look at any of those kinds of firms in your deliberation or tea? Progenity huge job. It's a question. Whether one person can and can do what you obviously have a team of Professionals in school. But is sometimes looking at a team of people. How did you look at that at all? And in your in this search based on the studies that I've seen those provide a mixed result in some areas. They have been more successful than others. We are on our school board are not against bringing in a private company to assistance to assist us. We have Sylvan Learning that's involved in a number of our schools. And we feel that they are producing some very good results as you observed a superintendent does not run the district alone he or she creates a team and that's what a new Supra. And it usually does comes in and make sure that team is put in place in a structure that that individual feels is workable for the school district. We feel with our track record and what we are doing and where we want to go that a superintendent is the structure that we would like to use. Are they to call her raised an interesting question that are committee responded to if you look at the way we drafted and the board agreed with our draft of qualifications and virtues in Scales. We all agreed that our invitation should include non-traditional candidates and we and that's why we didn't you notice we didn't include things like it's got to be a superintendent from a another larger District indeed. I think even marry I think even the reference to whether it be a PhD or not. We knew that are non. Additional candidate might well come out of a CEO's position who wouldn't have a Ph.D. But would be demonstrated leader in a public body that could match very well. So I had to call her and we are a pretty well aligned by the nature of his question without being content about the present operation of our district. All the business indices would indicate that we are well-run. Although we've always every system needs holding the collar. I just think he has hit a terribly important point in that is that that's what I meant earlier about the fit we've got to think about just what we need to do Two Notch Rd District up to the next level and particularly Ricci. It's mainly not reaching all of the kids that that's not the only problem. We still have to make sure they're really gifted talented. Georgetta Kid hard fully challenge, that's an important part, but we can do that and have everything else being very well operate and if we can get a leader who can focus our community edge with the community get the business Community, even the Chamber of Commerce testified to us that they learned a lot through this process and that the second time around they're going to organize more fully to be able to assist us more only good can come from that because once you get participants investing in the process of picking someone then they they have to participate and making it work and that's why I think the notion of flexibility is once public education has got to demonstrate its ability to offer alternatives to kids in the families. And that's one of the things I was on the board 25 years ago. We created the first magnet school and I listen to parents from all over the city during the process. Just you know, and one of the wonderful complaint. I kept running into that. They couldn't get their kid into one of the magnet schools across town. They wanted to get to don't means that more and more choices are being offered in St. Paul that we didn't have 25 years ago and we have to keep pressing the envelope on those Alternatives and this gets political and this gets this becomes a national debate about how far do you press the envelope? Do you have to offer non-public education the same options of for every family and it'll continue to be argued. But the way the public education will flourish is to demonstrate to all the families that those Alternatives those options that flexibility can be achieved without sacrificing our historic commitment to educate every child in our public education interested in getting a non-traditional. People in the pool if candidate applicants. We not only hired one individual who does a searches among traditional superintendents and school districts. We hired a second one who worked with the national school boards person who comes from a mainly a business search background because we thought that individual would have connections in the business Community because we did want to look broadly at who could come in and provide the leadership not necessarily an educator but one who could meet the criteria says that the advisory committee had put together for us. So well, they did an outstanding job with that and we felt that someone who was in private business probably was ready to retire or someone out of the military who had left the military but had the kinds of experiences with diversity because you can get that in the business sector you can get that in the in the military. It doesn't have to be School District where you have experienced diversity and some of the kinds of criteria that we were looking for. May I ask you a question about the point that they're what was one good thing about this was there so many people involved in the in the process the reverse of that it seems to me is that in this case and it happens in business all the time. Now, it seems like every time somebody wants to feel any job. There is this torturous process, whereby the candidates have to go through endless interviews and and it goes on and on and on and on and there's no clear person actually doing the hiring. It's it just wears people out. It doesn't hasn't the system at the whole process of trying to be inclusive gotten so out of hand that it did that you exclude people and where I'm down to that you can involve all the people in the world and if we don't if the communities do not feel that they own the schools and that it's there. It's their baby. Then we're in deep trouble one of the recurring complaints and I've got to share this with you is the number of parents that I listen to often people of color or as we describe them as minority what we're now a majority-minority in our school district said, we're not sure that we're being listened to it's terribly important that every family feels engaged because a family's got to be held accountable as well as a child's got to be held accountable as well as a teacher and administration the school board the final comment. I want to make because I heard a little bit of this kind of Moaning at the bar last night about how I don't mean the bar across from the school district, but I mean morning at the bar of Justice in which they talked about. Wow, it's awfully hard and all that. There's no substitute for the guts to make a decision and there is no criteria that's ever going to be so specific and I've been involved and literally several hundred searches in the private sector for a corporate. And it's 2 billion dollar 2 billion dollars in and revenue as well as in the public sector. It was no replacement for the exercise of judgment and knowing with all the criteria and all the rest you look at this person. You say I think this match fit and that's why you elect people that's why you paid Chief Executive offices like to pay them because they've got to make tough judgment and there's never a pre-ordained. You can't put it into a computer and that and I don't ever want that school board. I wasn't unhappy that two people would have rejected our recommendation that school board showed me that they were each one of the board members was going to exercise an independent judgment and they weren't going to follow any given community group and I'm that never want to become such a Democrat and such a populist that I think a group of communities together can make that appointment that I believe in the electoral process. I believe that boards got the job to do it. They exercise didn't you got exercise courage and judgment is no replacement for the human factor in doing Let's get another caller on the line here Diane. Yes. I want to go back to quite some time ago. And when I listen to that ex-mayor make a comment about they would like to have someone who would in effect guarantee that every child by the time he was in third grade would read the sad thing about that is having worked for several years in the Detroit area and a gifted school studies that are done with a neurological development. The average learning age to read for children in this is the average is 7 years old. So working with children that learn to read at three or four what appeared to be spontaneously. That means that their children that don't start reading until they're 9 or 10 because of the development it is not because there's something wrong with their facility. It's not because there's something wrong with her teacher. It's because it's just her nature is we don't lock step together. In all learn to read it a certain time because our bodies don't develop that way. So having business people come in who have no understanding of the development of the brain of the development of childhood. That doesn't mean that we don't keep offering materials for that to happen. But if we force children to read too early the brain will take an inferior root and they're never going to enjoy reading or get the pleasure from it. So it's just a comment. I wanted to make that you need people who know that Well, thank you very much for that comment. What we learning is more and more about neurological connections because some of the research that I'm aware of now is how important it is for those girls logical connections to be made prior to the age of 3, and if a child is not stimulated by the age of 3 some of those neurological connections, I never made that is one of the reasons I believe the legislature and school districts across the state. I have become even more interested. I believe we were always interested in preschool education, but it's increase the level of importance of having as many children as possible have experiences and not necessarily saying that everyone has to read when they're three years old that is not the point. They may be stimulated in many different ways. So that there red two so that they go to zoo, so they go to museums they talk about ideas. They tell stories they do painting all of that is stimulating the brain and causing connections to be made. They have learning in the kind of play that they do. They learn how to speak at a different level because of the language usage of either parents are others that they are associated with and as we learn more and more about how children learn we can adapt to what we are doing to meet the needs of children at an earlier and earlier age the importance of doing that is so that we won't have so much remediation later on in life right now too many children are coming through school and they are not at their grade level and we working hard to ensure that children as a Mary Lattimore said I able to read by the end of 3rd grade. That doesn't mean that someone treating when they walk in the door at kindergarten they learned in preschool summer reading at first grade, but we would hope that Noah Would be leaving third grade without being able to read and I I really must add that. I respectfully to the caller and and Mary Phillips has a PHD in it as more than a PhD. She's devoted her entire adult life to education studied the early childhood development as others have and I have not but my observation after a lot of years working with people and kids is that we're not failing because we're expecting too much of ourselves were failing because we expect too little and where we're going to eat you out and thinking because it grew up poor and a household that maybe wasn't privileged that they somehow we are to ignore the fact that they're not they're not reading forget about the third grade that were promoting him after the 7th and 8th grade and I just think that our failure for the potential of these kids. And all kids and I don't care what color they are. But disproportionately poor kids of color are or are not making it it's not because we've expected too much of them. But we've given them too much attention its exact opposite of that. We don't have a lot of time left but a couple of more questions here for you folks you often hear in the business world that the letters of recommendation are next to useless these days because nobody will be honest for fear of a lawsuit during the conducting the search for superintendents. You get pretty good recommendations from people honest recommendations as to whether somebody is a good fit for what you're looking for or did they squish around in that? We did it both ways because there may be some truth to what you're saying. I've worked it with conducting searches for quite some time. This is my first search for K-12 system, but I used to work in a community college. System and we conducted searches for president's I was in charge of those for a number of years we do find is that individuals today are more cautious about what they put in writing because people so people a lot more than they used to so we do ask for written recommendations, but we also do telephoning so that we can talk to individuals and hear what they have to say that they might not have felt comfortable and saying it in writing school system at this point as it stands right now is an attraction for families something to keep them in the city to bring people into the city or is it driving people away but Saint Paul Public Schools is one of the best Urban school districts in the nation. We had we talked frequently about the children who challenged I'd like to just turn for a moment to Many of the successes that we have we just had in the past month or two a two new Blue Ribbon Schools out of Washington DC. The only two public schools in the state of Minnesota both of them in st. Paul that's over at Highland Park and at Central High School. We at about a year ago were featured on program showing that we had the most semi-finalists for National Merit scholars in and that's a very high level of academic performance. We have international Baccalaureate programs again for gifted and talented students. We have a Capitol Hill Elementary School K-8 is that we have waiting lists from Suburban districts. So we have all many good things that are going on in at school. We believe Saint Paul is an attractive place for people to live. We think superintendents would enjoy living in this city. I think it's it's self-evident. If you if you look guy check out Central High School, for example, Central High School in St. Paul. Minnesota still has produce more Merit Scholars than any other school in the whole state. They're there. I know I tend to emphasize my fears and concerns about kids out being reached. But Mary is right. We the reason I do is that I feel pretty good at it. It doesn't mean we can't challenge the bright and effective kid, but I teach kids at McAllister who graduated of one of them with the most brilliant student that I have a graduated from Johnson High School. I have I really feel pretty good about the opportunities now, it's not perfect because we've got to get the opportunity for the talented kid to choose a magnet that's available in the reorganized to do that so we can improve it. But mainly I think the the kids not achieving on the main Tire. Thanks so much for coming in today. Sorry. We're outside our guest in sour Mary Thornton Phillips the charity St. Paul's School Board a former st. Paul Mayor George Latimer has been with us. He chair the citizens advisory committee and School Board continues its search for a new Saint Paul school superintendent. This is midday, and we will continue and just a moment. I'm Melinda pain, families often feel responsible for their mentally ill relatives, but feel powerless to help them. We can't make the mental illness go away and we can't find a legal route to get the medication to them to even find out if the medication will help will look at the support systems available to help families of the mentally ill on the next Talk of the Nation from NPR news. Talk of the Nation begins at 1 this afternoon over the noon hour today, we're going to hear from all the candidates for Governor on what they would do to your taxes if they're elected in November. They all want to cut the taxes. That'll be at noon right now. It's time for The Writer's Almanac.