I could write a 6 minutes past 11 today's programming is made possible in part by The Advocates of Minnesota Public Radio contributors include ADC Telecommunications. And good morning. This is midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm glad I'm glad you could join us today. Why ants to emerge the nation's two major teachers unions have stalled. Once again delegates attending the National Education Association Convention down in New Orleans yesterday overwhelmingly rejected a plan to merge with the NES rival the American Federation of teachers. The bullet was expected to be closed. It wasn't Joe Nathan Lee director the University Minnesota Humphrey Institute Center for school change is coming by this morning to discuss what that means for education in Minnesota. We're also this hour going to be talking about a plan to create seven more charter schools in Minnesota will be checking in on summer school in Minnesota and focus on education as a big political issue this year as well education is the subject of sour and we invite you to join our conversation. If you have a question or comment about the teachers merger Charter Schools education politics would ever give us a call or Twin City area number is 227-6002 to M6000 outside the Twin Cities 1 800 to +422-828-227-6102 for 22828. First of all of it before we get to our callers live report from national public radio's Larry Abramson on the surprising any AA ft boat in New Orleans yesterday 58% of the Nea delegates voted to hose the principles of unity, that would have Consolidated the two groups into a 3.3 million member Powerhouse since the marriage would have required a two-thirds vote in favor to defeat shows merger supporters fell well short of their mark But secretary-treasurer Dennis van roekel said Sunday members support the basic principle of a single teachers union for more than two. On the floor of the assembly that was a very clear message that came from all of our delegates and that is they believe and unifying are organizations into one. They believe that Unity will make us better at advocating for public education for children. And what they said is the proposal we put forth isn't the right one. But that Saturday debate show just how much many Nea members cherish their organization's identity as a Professional Organization first, and as a union second the American Federation of teachers is known as more of a traditional labor union and he a delegates fear their groups Grassroots Democratic structure would erode as the merger brought them into the American Federation of Labor many delegates at code concerns raised by Julius Maddox president of the Michigan Education Association. He said on the convention floor that Nea teachers aren't ready to wear the blue collar associated with traditional labor make no mistake about it. This document is not Affiliation with the American Federation of teachers this document is about affiliation with the AFL-CIO and does anyone really believe that all workers in construction and correction and in health care have education as their primary focus. I certainly don't Maddox is home state of Michigan has been a key Battleground is to Union so far to attract members supporters of a single organization argued one giant Union could stop membership raise. So the two groups could focus on their common fellow conservatives who support School vouchers and a greater role for the private sector in education, but Kate bronfenbrenner director of Labor education research at Cornell University says that in the end the to do unions couldn't get over their Mutual distrust, but on the ground there still people who can't let go of the bitterness of Decades-long fights and stealing members from each other and competing with each other as the any a convention wraps up members will discuss whether and how to move forward with a murderer campaign and idea that was first brought up nearly thirty years ago that report from national public radio's Larry Abramson, Joe Nathan Lee directed enrichment soda Center for school change is here now to talk some more about the proposed merger as well as charter schools in Minnesota summer school. We invite you to join our conversation to 276 thousand is our Twin City area number to 276 thousand. Side the Twin Cities 1 800 to +422-828-227-6000 or one 802-422-8280. Thanks for coming in this morning. What's your what's your sense? Why did the Renegade delegates vote down? The merger? Will first I think that many people are wondering what impact is this going to have in their youngsters classroom or in the school down the street with its in Black doctor Bemidji or Neuter or Minneapolis-Saint Paul. I think the answer is very little the AFT the M&S Minnesota Federation teachers in the sea and the Minnesota vacation Association have been cooperating number of things that have a very similar voice of the legislature. I think they will not have much impact. I think it's a stunning defeat frankly for the president of the National Education Association who has been going all over the country and spending lots and lots of time and money saying we ought to do this and clearly as your earlier report says a lot of Nea teachers are not ready to do it. Is that kind of Suspicion and inter-organizational rivalry. Is there any evidence here in Minnesota? As you said there's been a lot of cooperation between the organization's here will certainly the Federation and the association spent lots of money fighting each other over the years for members. I was a teacher in St. Paul and remember getting mailings and phone calls from members of the mea-mft urging me to join this organization without organization that's over and done with but you know, what's interesting I had A phone call from a Federation of teachers member this morning. I called to talk to me about several things and she said she'd vote against it because she thinks there's a real value to having two organizations that don't always see eye-to-eye. The represent teachers are challenging and question. You're just just the way you would have checks and balances within our system of democracy that we just celebrated on July 4th. This is a very active teacher who didn't talk about resentment resentment. She talked about the value of competition. She's talked about the value of having two organizations that not don't always agree often cooperate but don't always agree. What is can you give us an example of what they don't agree on how clearly one of the things is that involvement with the AFL-CIO. I think there's an image that some people have of the labor unions that some people say it. No we want to be professionals. And the reality is that teacher unions have pushed hard for a number of things that very common to Union seniority base layouts. For example, I think you We found that three of the last 28 State teacher of the year have been laid off in Minnesota because we have these rules about seniority which is very much a union ID and it's pushed strongly by both of em a.m. MST, but one thing they disagree about around the country is affiliation with AFL-CIO didn't seem to be a big problem here in Minnesota, but certainly around the country it was and I and I think they're there is a question of who are the members. The Nea has is Teachers. The AFT has a substantial number of members who actually work in healthcare unions in the healthcare. So how the NBA has wanted to have an organization. That is Teachers. So, that's the second disagreement. They were the local people here in Minnesota where supposed to merge I believe was on September 1st. I suppose this puts the kibosh on that carry one thing that they are scheduled to vote on today as I understand. It is a new idea that might allow locals and the states to merge with Keeping the national organizations separate. So I think that's quite conceivable that they will say. Well, let's go ahead and allow some experiments around the country and see what happens. We actually already have some examples in the state and they stayed in some other states of of joint unions that emerged. So I think that they may try that for a while if they do end up with one Union here in Minnesota. Would that give teachers more Cloud at the bargaining table sure and more clout at the legislature. They spend less money fighting each other that working me know when I have something that's it. They spend less money competing for members. They spend less money sort of presenting their different points of view and I spend more money and other kind of thing. I mean whether it's the Emmy are the AFT first and foremost, they were percent their members. I mean this rhetoric is wonderful about where for public education but these are the end and I don't criticize him for that. I mean, these are organizations that are first and foremost designed to push her a higher salaries for hire Fringe benefit. Brother other things up there with their teachers really want and yes teachers want more money to education, but what they join unions for in many many cases is for For Hire sours and fryer for French benefits in in in part. That's really not the only thing but unions represent their members call Nathan is the director of The Institute Center for school change, and he's come by today to talk about the several education issues including the Nea aft proposed merger, which was voted on by the NBA folks yesterday, but there's lots of things other things on our plate as well today charter school summer school of education as a political issue. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call to 276 thousand is our Twin City area number to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800. 242-282-8227 6001 800-242-2828. Now you are certainly whatever. Nation's leading experts on charter schools. So we should talk some about Charter Schools. The State Board of Education tomorrow is expected to approve seven more Charter Schools. Would that that would get us to 133 and then there's there's another 11 that are supposed to start and I'm I'm confused here by the number how many when all is said and done here this fall how many Charter Schools we have in Minnesota? Well, we have 27 that we're not bration in the in the 1997-98 school year which job which just finished we're going it was scheduled to have 5 more that are going to open. We actually have seven that have been approved five. They're going to open in the fall of 98 and two more that are going up in the fall of 99. But if all seven are proof tomorrow that would get us up to 240 241. They've actually been approved and remind us again. How does a charter school differ from a regular Public School? Gary the idea of chartering brings together three fundamental principles in America, don't you just you know what July 4th who just celebrated first has responsibility for results. This is not just a country of rules. It's a country responsibilities charter schools are responsible for improved achievement. If they don't do that, they're closed. We've already had one charter school in Minnesota close cuz it didn't improve student achievement of the first principles responsibility. The second principle is opportunity this give teachers a chance to create new kinds of opportunities in parents working together new kinds of schools that didn't exist that are responsible for results. And the third is is Choice within some limits Charter Public Schools are not allowed to have in my best charter schools are not allowed to have additional tuition. So it's a form of public school choice. It's also a form of of control competition we've seen in this in this state but I suppose I can your options are cross District public school choice open enrollment that competition can help stimulate Improvement throughout the system. So part of it as an ID to give expand opportunities part of it is an idea. Encourage improvements with an existing system how have the children who've been attending these Charter Schools? How have they done on those basic skills test its varied. We know that that some of the schools and some of the charter schools have done very well and improving achievement one of the concerns that some people had early on was the charter schools would take the most talented in the Frank of the whitest kids and that they would be few kids of color are there would be few kids or if I troubled and in fact University of Minnesota study that I didn't do that the center for Education Center for Kari Center for Applied research in education debt these letters mean what they what they found was it the the charter school kids are much like more likely to be kids with disabilities much more likely to be kids of color much more likely to come from low-income families than overall population state south several of the charter schools have improved student achievement but not all of them have and that's to be expected of me not all schools are going to improve achievement. But that's where the accountability provision comes in the 7 that come up for approval tomorrow one was describing the paper is being an African centered education program. And then there was one that had to do with the music recording right to know. How does that fit into the scheme of of Education as we know it all of the charter schools, like other public schools in the state of Minnesota required to have to demonstrate skills and knowledge before they graduate in all of them are required to pass the basic skills test, but they take a particular approach to this. We have a charter school. That's that's been proposed in Minneapolis that actually an existing school that had a contract with the Minneapolis schools and they want to they want to be a charter school. And this is a school that has work with a number of low-income youngsters many of them African-American and is produced dramatic improvements and student achievement. So when people sometimes say well the promise schools isn't the schools. It's the kids in as you know my my view on this is that we need to change. Outside in society, but we also need to change some things within the public education system is not one of the other it's both and this is a school that you actually had you had the director are moving here is it has a guest and Eric said is an engineer not educator and he's approach to the problem of Education from the point of view of an of an engineer's and how can we set up school? So that inner city kids are going to achieve an I've had a dramatic record of success. So it's certainly true that they talk about Pride but they also talked about math and they work very hard on meth and they work very hard and respect and they work very hard on taking responsibility for your own actions. And that's had a very strong positive impact. Although the Minneapolis School Board say I was going ahead and give them permission if they want to be at to be at our are there any restrictions at all as to what a charter school specialized in an appropriate way to talk about Chargers you are it's it's a fine way to talk about charter schools have to admit all kinds of kids. They can't have a minimum this and they have to meet State graduation requirements. But otherwise they can be specialized schools as we already have some specialized schools, but that you mentioned the the school that's going to have a component of music that's actually a student that's actually being set up by a gentleman was a former student of mine gentleman named David Ellis who had a very complicated background straighten himself out and has set up recording studio in downtown St. Paul here has found a number of young people who are not particular interested in schools very much like music and so he's work with some teachers to create the school where they certainly going to have a chance to work on music along with a basic academic skills, which you know, everyday listeners are going to say well shouldn't you know math as well as music in the answer is absolutely yes. I sure shut that music can be a way to get into math and it can be a way to get into a number of other things. Now as I recall, one of the big problems facing Charter School supporters was coming up with the money to actually get the school off the ground that they were supposed to find their own money for that. Is that still the case or is there is at law change the both the president and the Minnesota state legislature as well as the governor have said we need to help with that and and when you are a public school whether it's white bear Ave, St Cloud Aurora st. Paul or Minneapolis, ER Roseville or whatever Rosemont you can you can go to the voters and ask for permission to spend more money. In fact st. Paul now has permission from the legislature. I would have put up with most recent building. I didn't even have to go to the voters just the school board decided and poof. There was a new building which of course the taxpayers paid for the the charter schools are not had that opportunity to go to the voters. And so the president went to the members of Congress and said he'd really like to have some start-up money available and I we've gone from 8 million dollars to six 35 to 50 and now the shooters 80 million dollars from the federal government help people start charter schools and that's being administered by the State Department of Education. And this is a bipartisan thing. I mean, this is something that Bill Clinton and Paul wellstone and Arne Carlson agree on that's not always that you'll find those three gentlemen agreeing on things but has talked about how he thinks that the charter idea is a marvelous idea when he addressed the state legislature. He talked about that visited a couple of charter schools in thought I was really good idea and Donna Carlson agrees with him. So there is startup money available for both the federal government and now the state has allocated millions of dollars to help people start charger and to help pay for buildings. So it's it's we have we're getting closer to a Level Playing Field. We still don't have the same number of hours going to charter schools in many districts that we do other public schools are getting more money proper people then then public schools and other than in many districts in Minnesota and around the country, but the level the playing field is getting up and moving toward being level. Joe Nathan is a shower were talking education. New shoes Joe is the director University Minnesota Center for school change. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call or Twin City area number is 227-6002 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800 242-282-8227 6001 800-242-2828 charter school summer school or seducation. It looks like it's going to be a big political issue this year. Whatever you'd like to chat about 2 to 7 6001 800-242-2828 back to the Charter School issue jokes are thr the teachers unions generally supportive of these operation theories about the power of the Union sub that the NBA in the mft in this state opposed open enrollment. They oppose post-secondary options and then the legislature pass it in these ideas got a trial and we saw thousands of Participating we saw improvements not only for the kids participating but also for the quote kids left behind. We saw a number of districts creating programs. We saw as a result of post-secondary options that last year or two years ago actually win the legislative auditor surveyed hundreds of high school principal throughout the state that the more than half. The principal said that one result of allowing kids to go to colleges and universities was that it increased cooperation between the high schools and colleges and frankly. Our own children are an example of this time. We have twins were now 19 recently graduated from Saint Paul high school and our daughter didn't take any courses at a college or university. But you talking to a number of courses that are Saint Paul public high school that were taught in collaboration with University of Minnesota right in the high school. That's it. That's a new development that happened in great part because the high school didn't want to lose the kids are son took one course the University of Minnesota frankly didn't like a lot I say that is a person who works at the University of Minnesota and decided that he would stay at the high school to take the Union. Poston Ashley and then gave it a chance and in some states. Unfortunately my opinion. I'm going to set up in some states that unions have actually gone about setting up charter schools in in Houston Houston Federation of teachers is help people set up a charter school. The National Education Association is allocated more than a million dollars to help Union member start charter schools on the union is helping Public School teachers union members in Connecticut open in California and Colorado set up charge but so far, we haven't done that in Minnesota, but I hope over the next couple of years. We will do the do these charter schools in your mind answer the criticism of a voucher supporters who who argue that the public schools really need some competition and they need to provide parents with choice are the charter schools the answer to that critique. Certainly the charter schools have the charter idea has gathered political support from the left and the right. Rosa Parks civil rights Legend recently asked for permission to create a charter school in Detroit end and as I mentioned Bill Clinton and sort of in the middle and a Paul wellstone who I'd say is on the left and Arne Carlson would say the most sort of toward the right. I'm they've all supported the charter idea. So, I think that this is an idea that a lot of different people have come to as a form of Fair competition. Yes callers on the line with the questions and comments were Joe Nathan Bruce. Go ahead real trade with the charter school concept particularly what I've learned about it being more intimate education environment usually smaller classroom sizes, etcetera particularly interested in middle school students. Do you know how I might find out more about Charter Schools? Like what specific schools are out there that I could maybe make a choice for a child? Sure. Thanks for your call. Call Bill Allen at the State Department of Education is number +612-296-421-3612 to 96421 3 and he could send you a list of where the charter schools are available. Center at the pumpkin suit also has a we have a technical assistance program to help people start charter schools throughout the state and you could call Nancy Smith at the Humphrey Institute and Nancy's number is 529-8172. The if you want a list of the schools then Bill Allen is the guy and if you are interested in a sort of a summary of the charter school idea I've written a book with a remarkably Innovative title of charter schools, which is available in a lot of libraries around the state eminently readable, by the way, even for those of us who don't know what anybody education Joey if if you're in Bloomington CA living Bloomington, can you only go to a charter school in Bloomington or could you go anywhere in the state public schools? And we have the same open enrollment law that apply to Charter Schools. You can move across district lines to attend Charter Schools. Just as you can move across district lines to attend other public schools. In fact, some of the most successful charter schools in Greater, Minnesota are schools that attract kids from 15. The 20 different districts of Minnesota new country school, for example little town of a sore eye has attracted an enormous attention clean national attention. It's had the Frog project its kids every 6 weeks to a public presentation about something that they've learned and they have kids from about 20 different School District coming to to that school bath your question, please She's been. Rested on the seventh grade reading level and the 4th grade math level and I guess my question is what do I do with these test scores? Is there any should I speak to the school? Should she be where she is and I guess what do I do with the test score than this information. Thanks. Thanks for calling in for being a concerned parent some Public Schools including a public elementary school that our daughter Laura went to in St. Paul called Expo Elementary School start the year off with a family student-teacher conference in August to sit down and so the family can talk with the teacher and let her let her or him know what the families priorities are in concerns and questions and so on and I would encourage you if you the school that your daughter does not do that formally in more and more schools are it's a really good way of building close working relationship with family. I'd encourage you to go in to ask for a conference with your daughter's teacher this year so that she or he knows the situation. And ask what are the options available? There aren't growing number of schools that allow kids to move at their own speed and certainly there are some in Minneapolis that allow kids to move at their own speed that don't regard third-grader necessarily as a person who has 3rd grade reading skills. As you said your daughter has 7th grade reading skills. And I think you said 4th grade math skill. So their number of schools that offer the option of for families to have the kids place in groups that are really where the kids are working at that particular skill level and I strongly encourage you another concerned parents to go in before school starts and meet with her family. I meet with the teacher and say here are my questions. How can we work together on this? And as I said a number of very good schools are having his family student-teacher conference. I know Wayne Jennings who will be bringing some Charter School proposals to the State Board of Education tomorrow is one of the people in the country is Pioneer this IDs a local educator and he started this idea where the 26 years ago with Saint Paul open school, which has had these kinds of family student teacher conferences Pennywise specifically, I would go in and talk with the teacher before school starts and ask her him. How can work together to help meet the needs of my answer? You hear politicians real a lot about social promotions the idea of just moving kids along whether they learn the material or not. What's happening with that these days surely. We'd we aren't forcing kids who are quite a bit. Older. It's in the class with first graders are we right? We're not in this state. There are some states that have gotten quite vindictive about this. In fact, you may recall Gary that some years ago. The Minneapolis public schools did have the first grade kindergarten testing. If youngsters didn't pass that test they were not allowed to go into first grade in so many extras failed it that they really had quite a pickle and ultimately decided not to make the A graduation requirement of kindergarten but the state has I think quite wisely said we're going to set up benchmarks. We're going to set up guide posts along the way and we're going to say for example in the 3rd and 5th grade hear some things that we think you want to know just a month or so ago. We had lots of big news about what were the test scores and how many kids were in various levels on the 3rd and the 5th grade test and I think the state is quite wise I said, let's get together parents and teachers and talk about what it is that we think that youngsters out of know and be able to do in 3rd and 5th grade so that way we don't wait till the 7th or 8th grade reading writing math test to say wow. There's some problems here are the appears to be progressing satisfactorily. So we have not been has been dictive in this date of some other states have and I think it's been wise for us to say well set-up guide post so we can have a good information so we can catch answer is really the other thing is that we have at least in some schools and in some districts put a lot more premium on getting anxious agreed by the end of second grade. There's a there's a professor at the University of Minnesota named Barbara Taylor who's done some marvelous work. And is helping School District all over the United States and her work shows at firstly all kids can learn to read by the end of second grade regardless of family at background regardless of whether they speak English in the home and that's very very important to see if you can learn to read by the end of second grade their lives in school are going to be a lot easier in front of their lives over all are going to be a lot easier Joe Nathan is whether the shower he is the director of the universe Minnesota Humphrey Institute Center for school change were talking education issues this hour if you'd like to join our conversation. Again, the number is 227-6000 in the Twin Cities to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828 more collars in just a moment. I'm learning Benson on Mondays all things considered a for-profit New York company will take its turn at trying to improve education in Minneapolis. The Edison project will open a k through 5th grade school this fall Minneapolis school officials say they're cautiously optimistic. But you know, they have to produce that story on Mondays All Things Considered weekdays at 3 on Minnesota Public Radio Kano W FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities are funding for Minnesota public radio's documentary fund just provided by Phyllis Taylor in memory of Walter stremmel weather forecast. Looks like we could have some more Wild and Woolly weather. We've had a couple of days when it's been relatively quiet, but the forecast for today calls for showers and thundershowers, maybe some severe weather in Southwestern Minnesota this afternoon with highs mid-sixties in the Northeast upper 80s in the south-west tonight showers and thunder showers all across the state and some severe weather is possible Twin Cities partial clearing this afternoon pretty humid 40% chance for a shower or thundershower late this afternoon with a high near 80 and then some heavy rain is possible in the cities tonight right now in the Twin City area. We have a cloudy Sky 73°, Joe Nathan is with us where Talking education issues and again are Twin City area number if you'd like to join our conversation is 2 to 76,000 outside the Twin Cities one. 800-242-2828 Kate your question Place Nathan. I really appreciate the chance to talk to you. Listen to what you have to say about the schools rather unique situation. I think and I would appreciate any information you could give me two kids who were both educated at Capitol Hill gifted and talented magnet in St. Paul and I am familiar now with the charter school situation here because all the neurological impairment rather severe medical crisis that my older child went through he is no longer able to be a part of a gifted program in St. Paul and I went looking for charter schools for him in the hopes that might be an answer. There was nothing there for special needs kids. That served him and in fact, you've no longer able to be mainstreamed it. All he is not been successful in any of the special ed classes and I am now engaged in a battle really with the state of Minnesota. And I realize this is slightly out of your area of expertise because it's state in the county. But I wonder if you could give me some advice about directly to go for help to get a child educated outside the state of Minnesota that Minnesota cannot serve. Wow, I'm pausing here because this is a very serious situation and I need to be very careful not to propose different directions. That will not be a good use of your time. I don't know if you've been in touch with an organization call Pacers. There is a marvelous organization nationally recognized organization based in Minneapolis. That's set up by groups of parents of to help families with kids with special special needs. It's in the Minneapolis phonebook in it, and it's called Pacers. So I'd encourage you to be in touch with him. If you've not so far talk when I'm the second thing is that there are some new Charters coming online that are that are very much oriented toward meeting the needs of individual youngsters, and I can't possibly pretend to know all of the things that are going on with your particular youngster, but you might want to give people at some of these new charter school. So I call you could call 6450 200 talk to Jennings and he could that's a they're setting up several new charter schools are three new Charter Schools. I think opening this fall in Saint Paul and now they're they certainly have the answers with special needs. But I would I would check with Pacers. You might want to check with Wayne. You might want to make an appointment with I think you mentioned that you're in St. Paul Patton Hernandez, who is the director special ed here in St. Paul and I certainly wish you good luck. It's always tough to generalize of course, but in in general people who have special problems of one sort or another good good response from the education bureaucracy, or do they tend to get Shuffle to the side and ignored? how to tough questions in a row That's really hard to answer. There. Are there many committed caring talented people in public education. I think virtually all of them do the very best as I can as educator say there are many youngsters with challenging situations. And in many Educators call me each week or write me a message or and say, you know, you just don't understand how difficult it is. Well, I do I've been a teacher. My wife is a public school teacher working with very challenging extras in many cases, but really well-run schools find ways to help virtually every youngster regardless of her or his special needs make progress and that's really key. The focus has to be on the youngsters and that's one of the reasons why I don't believe that we ought to have a public education system in which the dollars keep flowing to schools regardless of how well the kids do I think that there ought to be some rewards for schools to make progress and consequences for schools that don't right now we don't have that but many youngsters are are helped and not let me give you a part of what has to happen. Sit there for the Educators to say, let's take a step back and I'll give you two quick examples about two weeks ago the center for school change with support from the Blind and Foundation convened a couple hundred teachers and parents from around the state that we've been working with him and one of those youngsters who came to the meeting was a woman and woman from Perham name. Khari khari was a Youngster was very complicated special education issues and had not like School in done very badly in school and a guy named less Gunderson was a teacher in Perham with a couple of other teachers had developed a new 3-hour day program with the kids and get out interview folks do research in the community and car is absolutely Blossom to me. She was giving a presentation to Statewide conference and she got up almost with tears coming down her eyes and said, you know, I really love school. I used to hate school. I used to get in trouble in school. Now. I'm a star student that was because the school had change the way they operate one other quick example in Houston and far Southeastern Minnesota met with some students who have done some research on the canoe. They have a wonderful teacher and one School it's decided to rearrange the way School works for the kids are doing more Hands-On Active Learning. They have kids who done research and some of the kids have discovered that right in the community of Houston. There's an old woman that many people didn't know about who is age 16 and 17 had been a resistance fighter in the Belgian resistance during World War. I wrote about this in my comms day in the Pioneer Press. You can imagine how the youngsters reflected on their own lives at 1617. What kinds of things concern them versus what kinds of things concern this woman who is 16 and 17 in a resistance fighter in World War II and as you said this wonderful teacher said to me, you know, having kids interview older people is not just about interviewing all the persons about encouraging and reflect on their own lives. And that's exactly what's been done. Also in Houston. They have out the river trail that's bike trails going through and they have some youngsters have not done perfectly well in school and those youngsters are literally building a bike shop and they are learning how to repair bikes and we had some of the youngsters at another conference talk about what it meant to them to have hands on Act. Morning, so I think effective schools to go back to your question. Do we we meet the needs a special cuz effective schools don't just point the fingers fingers of families. There are troubled families no question but effective school. So now what can the families do to change but what can also what can we as Educators do to have more active learning to have more learning that that meets the needs of individual kids as we've heard some individual needs presented by some parents just here today as far as the other half of that is the issue of whether or not so much attention is paid to kids who are having problems or whatever that the ordinary student-run a male cat is getting ignored. The ordinary run-of-the-mill student turns out to have individual needs her or himself to some youngsters learn much better out in the world. I often ask people to describe in one sentence the most powerful positive learning that they've had is an elementary or secondary school students might want to think about that. What was the most powerful learning experience you had an elementary or secondary school did what was might want to think about that yourself. What was the most powerful learning French you had is too old. I can't remember back that far is going to pass on that overwhelmingly is x when they were out in the community or times when they were doing something it was useful for other people are times when they had an audience beyond the teacher where they are produced a yearbook or are they going to play or they run a football team where they were and they took a field trip? It's the quote ordinary run-of-the-mill student learns off in ways that are active in hands on that don't involve sitting down a book listing the teacher talk and taking notes and and Reading the chapter and answering the questions at the end of luck. We have some very unfortunate ideas about what learning Means versus what's in and we could do a lot better in schools, which isn't to say that there aren't some classes are doing marvelous things and isn't to say that we shouldn't use textbook sometimes absolutely we should but we should combine that with active learning in the community that I've mentioned a couple of examples just in the last few minutes Steve your question for Joe Nathan place a good morning so far. I have not heard any one of the gubernatorial candidates speak out in favor of the profile of learning. In fact, most of them have positioned themselves opponents of it. Somehow pledged to get rid of it when they are in office. I'm just calling to ask the question of your guests. How did this boat for the profile of learning? Very important question and I think that the answer is it's not clear at this point. Certainly mayor. Coleman has said that he's not in favor of the profile. I think it's important to step back from it. What are we talking about? We're talking about essentially the process of getting a driver's license in this state, which is there's a two-part process you pass up a paper pencil test, although now as I found out when I took our our kids were now 19 to get their driver's license now, it's not paper pencil anymore. Now, it's on a computer you push a button and answer the questions multiple there still multiple choice questions, you take this multiple choice test and that's basically what we've got with the reading and the math test multiple choice test and then when you get a driver's license, you also have to cut it out on the road and show that you're not actually know how to drive. The profiles of learning is is more applied kinds of things. It's showing that you know how to provide provide service to people showing that you know how to to do scientific experiments show that you know how to interview people in the community. It's more applied kinds of learning now Gary we've talked over the last probably six or seven years about this profile is running and it is complex and it is extensive and I worry from time to time that has gotten so complex that it's going to All Fall Down of its own weight does just there are states that have tried this and because it was so complicated just collapsed after a few years. It's not clear what's going to happen. I'm I'm hopeful that we'll be able to move in this direction. I think the state department has over the last year shown a lot more flexibility terms are letting school districts come up with ways to to show that the youngsters have demonstrated these more plaid kinds of learning but I think it's an open question and I think that it would be valuable for this caller to check with the Democrats who have so far not spoken that I can see very You know what? They said about the profile profile if I know that the Republican nominee has made it clear that he's opposed to it. What would happen that we should know it by the way, we just received word. There is one less or one fewer. You're the teacher which is the correct term here. What's the next word candidates? There's one fewer candidate one less candidates in there than there was before John Martis dropped out of these not going to run for governor, not officially filed. Anyway, what happens if The they decide to scrap the profile of learning program at this point. I just throw the whole system into chaos. Does it let everybody step back and come up with something that seems to be more agreeable to people what would be the impact that I think both of the things that you've described just now could happen. It would it would have paid that back and say why don't we done and what should we do? I think that it would be very important for the governor Goodman truck and it's to say what they think should be done. But yes, if if people decide if a governor decides that that she I guess the all the governor's major counties now, he's even if they decide to go to the 1999 legislation says all scrap of the legislature has decided on a bipartisan basis the legislature would last six or seven years is coming to consensus. This is what they want. But they also put a lot more money into staff development training teachers to be ready. So it will be if if this thing goes away, then we'll have to come up with something because right now we don't have any state. We don't have any state requirements other than the basic skills test in Reading Writing and math and the profile aren't we don't have any state requirements for graduation. So there are no requirements right now. The answer has to take certain numbers math courses or or social studies courses or someone. It's strictly on the basis of demonstration of a confidence John your question place. Yes. I was curious where I could find her if you know how much the total amount of money per student in like minneapolis's Puryear Lumber like that. Well, I don't have it off the top of my head but it depends on what you lump in. I mean do you lump in? Haha, I check with the state department and I check and I checked with the Minneapolis public schools. And then we argue about it. And one of my Men's Clubs constantly and have been able to figure out it by the suburb because some suburbs of past property tax referendum says Minneapolis has some have not and Minneapolis has a substantial referendum also, Minneapolis gets extra dollars because they have made the case that the legislators accepted that they have more challenging situation. So they get compensatory education substantially more compensatory education than many other districts get so I Minneapolis is one of the best funded districts in the state. The NAACP has said that the state should audit the Minneapolis School District find out where the money is going what it's being spent on and why students continue to do so poorly in the district state auditor Judy. You're pretty much ruled out an official audit. Is there any evidence one way or the other as to how these communities the new community schools in Minneapolis are working. Do we have any evidence on that yet R Kids learning more are they learning less same as before any evidence at all? Just in the first year too and I think we have to be very careful in making definitive judgment just of any kind of school in the first year trying to just completed literally the first year of the community schools, which are really just a promise on the part of Minneapolis. If you live in certain neighborhoods as as a kindergarten kindergarteners will have the opportunity to go to the nearest school. That's a promise of the district is made in they're going to increase that opportunities as the years go by for kids and for older elementary kids. So I don't think we have any evidence of that at this point summer school that was supposed to be one one way to help kids, especially those who were having trouble with the basic skills tests. Are there a lot of kids taking going to summer school this year. There are thousands of kids going to summer school and the evidence there is mixed once again, it's early but in Chicago they've been doing this for several years in the evidence is quite mixed some youngsters profit from summer school and some youngsters don't in Minneapolis. I saw study recently that said that there was that many of the youngsters who had gone to summer school had not necessarily done a better job. That's why I think we need to go back to the two principles that I was talking about about engaging families and changing the way that learning and teaching goes on in school. One of the things that that has been very encouraging I mention Barbara Taylor who has shown that it is possible to get youngsters even from very challenging backgrounds to learn to read her work is being used in some schools, but certainly not all another guy who's showing that it's possible to make major progress with youngsters a guy named Bob slavin from Johns Hopkins University in once again, his work has been used in some schools but not all and and these people say what we have to do is to change what happens in the school. So we can't use the same traditional techniques and I described earlier some some examples of schools, which have changed what they've done. So the kids are more actively involved in learning in the community sell that they have a product that they create and those kinds of principles. I think there is I don't think I know there's a lot of research that shows active Hands On Learning does produce higher student achievement from simply saying where you're going to go to school in the summer that does not necessarily produce Higher Achievement. Say Paul is in the process now of trying to come up with a new find a new superintendent. How how important is that to the future of a of a school district that they they get the right person for a job like that it certainly important about the average 10-year of superintendents these days and large cities is less than three years and St. Paul and Minneapolis. I've had a bit longer than that, but I think that the central questions having to do with education and cities has to do with are we going to change the way that learning and teaching occurs in the superintendent? No matter how eloquent she or he is can only encourage and can only set the conditions. I frankly hope that whoever the person is I who comes into St. Paul it's going to be someone who's going to learn some of the lessons of New York and Chicago where they've been instead of building new Mega High School says, we recently did in St. Paul. They've been creating a New York and Chicago smaller schools using their search the small schools produce higher student achievement that they They're not more expensive people say well, maybe small schools are better but they're more expensive and that's not necessarily true people think that bigger schools are more efficient because they're larger than the offer more classes, but we're finding is a bigger schools have more vandalism bigger schools have I have lower rates of attendance bigger schools have lower rates of graduation and bigger schools. Also in many many cases have to hire a lot of people for security cuz their vast and huge and we have people literally in some of our large cities including Saint Paul and Minneapolis Walking The Halls with walkie talkies. He stays in these Mega ice cold. I visited small schools in some of the most challenging dangerous neighborhoods United States. They don't have a hot Walkers. They don't have walkie talkies because everybody in that school news knows who everybody is and so we have Higher Achievement. So I think the real question is in front of the Saint Paul board or not who the person is going to be but what she or he wants to do and how she or he is going to encourage Innovation and courage the use of the best principles and education and The school board ultimately makes the decisions is not the Super dentists the school board Joe. We're out of time. Thanks for coming in. Good to see you. Thank you. Always Could Talk education, Joe Nathan is the director of the universe. Mr. Humphrey institute's Center for school change stopping by this hour to talk about some of the education issues in the news today like to thank all of you who been with us this our specially those of you who called in with your questions and comments and I will continue with midday in just a moment. I'm Ray Suarez. It's Linda trips turn to testify before the grand jury investigating President Clinton's relationship with Monica Lewinsky asked why she taped her friend why she betrayed her friend by delivering those tapes to the independent counsel will talk about trips testimony and get a legal refresher on the presidential investigation on the next Talk of the Nation from NPR news. documentation begins at 1 here on Minnesota Public Radio over the noon hour right before Talk of the Nation will be hearing from Daniel golden the head of NASA about the US Space Program time now for The Writer's Almanac