Text Greta 6 minutes now past 11. Today's programming is made possible in part by The Advocates of Minnesota Public Radio contributors include the McKnight Foundation working to strengthen families and communities and US Bank the Regions Financial partner for 68 years. Good morning. Welcome to mid-day here on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary. I can glad you could join us. You know, we often hear that the Minnesota children need that world-class education. Well based on test results released today, Minnesota children may already be receiving a world-class education test results from the third international math and science study have found Minnesota 4th graders were among the best in the world in science and basically holding their own in math last year similar test results were reported for Minnesota 8th graders joining us this hour to discuss these latest test results what they mean for Minnesota school children who took the test and for school children in general are to folks with cymath Minnesota nonprofit organization supported by business education and government groups that sponsored Minnesota's participation in this world wide testing program Bill Lindner shoulder is the executive director of cymath, Minnesota Laura Peterman is the sign. Project manager for a cymath Minnesota and we also invite you to join our conversation this hour were talking about these new test results that are out today and what they mean for Minnesota Education Without you give us a call or Twin City area number is 227-6002 276 thousand if you're calling from outside the Twin Cities, you can reach us toll-free at one eight hundred to +422-828-227-6000 or one 800-242-2828. Thanks for coming in today. Good morning. Gary appreciate it. First of all who took this test not understand what 2500 students are in 125 different schools. Are these just the best Minnesota school students that took the task to kind of a cross-sectional. This is a cross-section. Gary was a scientifically valid sample of the state of Minnesota as it turns out it takes about twenty-five hundred students from a state the size of Minnesota to make a vow. Sample, and that meant that Minnesota could participate in Tim's in the center National testing as a mini Nation another we were able to compare our results with the United States, but also with all the other countries. No llore you. I have taught science in high schools. And you're in charge of the the science projects manager for assignment Minnesota school students were just outstanding and science says so we have nothing to worry about now. Everything is hunky-dory and the science field that we can learn from Tim's and the other things that are going on in our state but I also think that we have a lot of reasons to be very proud of our students in our teachers in our schools. Well, what are we doing? That's that's right. That's a good question. And I think we have a lot of analysis of the Tim's data and the other day. That's out there to try and figure out exactly what are we doing? Right? I think it's probably a combination of a lot of different things. First of all 4th graders are curious 4th graders are little scientists. They want to learn about everything and the media picks up on that Library picks up on that. If you go to the library UC shelves and shelves of books science books for little kids if you watch Television there's there's a lot of things for kids to do. Minnesota has a strong tradition in Hands-On science with their teachers the teachers who teach science are doing a good job of getting their kids engaged in and working with things in the classrooms. And we have a strong informal science community in Minnesota with the nature centers in the museum. So there's a lot of enrichment that kids can take part in. I think the most important thing is to make sure that all kids can do all those things. How hard are these tests? When should they be seen as really extraordinarily difficult and as a consequence the fact that our students did pretty well in these tests indicate that they are really topflight or you know it about the temps test is that they were based on an international curriculum that is to say experts looked at what was being taught in Science and Mathematics at the 4th grade level around the world. The lowest common denominator content so know these tests aren't meant to sort out top kids are not meant to be difficult tests are meant to reflect what an average 4th grader around the world might be learning and that's why it's an important Benchmark for us as a state in the past. We have known how many set of does compared to the United States is a whole. We haven't had a lot of measures but how we're doing against the rest of the world, but we know we're in an international economy. We know our kids leave the state they go off to work with employers and multinational corporations and we want our kids to be competitive. So we need to know how we're doing at the elementary as well as the secondary level compared to the rest of the world. That's why Tim's is really important 1995. The test was administered, correct. Do we have any estimate as to what's happened in the Minnesota schools since then that is to say what the kids do even better today if they took this test. Tartar to say because school environment has really changed in the last two or three years because of the Minnesota graduation standards. That is to say that the school that make around the country were interested in the Tim's results and I've been using Tim's results to reshape what they're teaching and how they're teaching it. But here in Minnesota the situation has been even more dramatic because the Advent of the Minnesota graduation standards which are now officially the rule here in Minnesota schools across the state will really Drive change in math and science it across the board for that matter. So it's harder to say what the impact of Tim's might have been in the schools as compared to the whole notion of change that's built into the grade standards. Lori's understand at the 12th grade results are supposed to be released in August. Now, what are we expecting on from those results? Will they be as good as the fourth grade results that's hard to say the United States results are less than than what we would have hoped and Minnesota may fall with that one of the one of the Things to think about with the Minnesota 12th result is Minnesota has fewer kids taking science in high school than just about any other state in the country where I think we're like third from the bottom in the number of kids who are taking any kind of Science in high school. So that remains to be seen. I don't really have a prediction on that why so few kids science the surprising almost a shocking fact, I think Minnesota has always prided itself on being so strong and education yet here in math and science two disciplines that are key to workplace skills as it turns out we've had very low requirements and I think that reflects the fact that there is a divided in the school's between kids who are think of themselves as College band or whose parents think of those kids college bound and all the other kids who may not be at that point yet and we have really sorted kids in school and we've lined up math and science programs that are very strong and the one hand for kids, you know that they're going to college and slip into those College Bound Math and Science classrooms and too often. We've given a lesser Math and Science to other kids and that really can make a profound difference. I think part of it also maybe starting way back in the fourth grade. As I said earlier not all kids get to learn science in elementary school. And I think that that's really sad and I think that's another reason why kids aren't King science in high schools because they never had science the way scientist supposed to be ever in school or talking to shower about the this is so from something called the Tim's test and that stands for the third international math and science study. It measured in Minnesota in this case, Minnesota 4th graders against students around the world 26 other nations and test results indicate that Minnesota students are doing very very well in science and about average in terms of mathematics. This hour were talking about what that means for Minnesota education. We've been joined by Bill Linder Schaller who is executive director cymath, Minnesota, Laura Peterman is with a science project manager for cymath Minnesota, and we invite you to join our conversation as well or Twin City area number is 227-6002 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1 242-282-8227 6000 or 1 802-422-8028 Tamara's on the line with our first question glad place. I'm I was curious as to whether or not you had access to the results of other states such as California and I'm particularly curious into the case of California since they have a very high-level School spending up until the 1970s was Prop 13, and now they have a very low level of school spending and I was wondering if that was reflected in the testicles. The fact is that we don't know about other states because only three states took the Tim's at various grade levels as it turns out. In fact, Minnesota was the only state that took Tim's at for eight and 12. There were a couple of other states that took the Tim's at the 4th grade level, Illinois and Colorado. And neither of those states have released the results of the California did not take Tim's at any of the three grade levels in so they won't be reporting the results. And so we can't I figure out an answer to the question. Although the new colors question was About funding and funding levels and we do know from the Tim's day to both the US Tim's Dayton the Minnesota to that the US has a hole in Minnesota is a state or about on par in terms of how we fund K-12 Math and Science to say we're not underfunding at by world class standards. So we need to look again beyond the issue of money. We're doing fine were about average internationally in terms of the amount of dollar resources. We put into K-12 science and math know we've heard that the national average keeps getting reported when these test results come out is that just the average of the three states that took this tester. What what is that national average represent? It is truly a nationwide average kids across the United States were sample, and I can't remember what the sample size but it would have been many thousands of kids. So the u.s. Is a whole participated in Tim's and then in addition, Minnesota and some other entities. Spit in one or more of the pieces, but that's why we can look to the US average. It's also I think important understand that the literal numerical score say the United States score and Mathematics 4th grade, which was 5:45 suggest a range of performance really rather than than a very precise reading. And so when we look at Minnesota's Matt score and compared to the u.s. We looked at really a box or a grouping of countries that all performed about the same. So Minnesota is in the middle of the middle. So to speak in mathematics at fourth grade, there were some six countries that did significantly better than Minnesota. So we do that kind of relative comparison on the science side. We were literally second in the list, but more importantly only one country did significantly performance Katie your question, please both of my parents are Educators in Minnesota, and I just like to say that I'm I'm really proud of both of them and all of the I guess the education system in Minnesota and general during these results and I guess my question relates back to the graduation standards and profiles and learning. I guess I've heard a lot of discussion on that. I don't know how much it's been implemented and I'm wondering if you could comment further on how much what's been done with profiles and learning so far has affected these results and I guess I'm wondering, you know, if not much has been done with the grad standards, you know, maybe the system isn't broken broken and we shouldn't worry about fixing it. Well, actually the test was administered long before profile of learning came into being so I guess it didn't the profile of learning didn't affect test results have the test results are the testing have that has that affected the profile of learning I think it was we just got the test results recently. And so as the standards are being written I would say no, but in their implementation, I would say the Tim's results will affect their implementation. I think the strongest thing that the Minnesota graduation standards will do at least in the science side is it will ensure that all children have the opportunity to learn science in the elementary school in the Middle School in the high school and as a result, I think that Minnesota kids will be getting more and better science because of the graduation standards. What about the idea that Katie razors that if it's not broke don't fix it that is to say other than the fact that some kids aren't getting much of anything. If you simply took the best practices that were being applied across the state made sure all the kids had that had that same education why go through this rigmarole with the profile of learning. It's an excellent question. One that we wrestle with obviously in the answer is not that we want to Can you to compete directly on test scores with Japan or Singapore or some high-performing country? But what we know about the changes in the workplace and life around us. We know that every job virtually every job in America is being impacted by technology computers the Internet and other words the demands that all kids will have placed on a mistake the wind of the workplace as they seek to be functioning adults. The demands are higher than they used to be and in fact not only hire but but different and that's what the Minnesota graduation standards in the profile recognized. So Tim's is an excellent reflection of how we have done in the past in math and science on traditional Math and Science content. In other words. If you were a college-bound particular math or science major interested in engineering career Tim's would be an excellent measure now his life is changing and the role of Global Marketplace in telecommunications changes the nature of what we do and how we do it and how we relate to others on the job. We know that education has to change and that's the real driving force behind the changes that are in the grade standards. In other words. It doesn't say that what we've done in the past is wrong it simply recognizes that life is changing and education has to change in order to fairly prepare kids for the new workplace and for life, but this is a cross-section right? I mean that the people who took this task Square cross-section of students in 1995 and they seem to be doing real. Well that the Tim's has shown us is that the focus and coherence of a curriculum make a difference and that was really evident in our 8th grade results. what is taught how it's taught is really important and the grad standards will give us some focus and coherence to our system K-12. So that appropriate science will be taught to and Mathematics and all other subject to to our children. And I also believe that the grad standards do reflect the best practices and now will be available to all children. Why do you suppose students did so well on this test? I am so many of them do so poorly on the basic standards test not the profile of learning materials things like that the higher order material, but the basic skills test I think one of the things to to think about we have our average score that we got which was very very good and about 40% of our kids and science were in the top 25% in the world, but on the other hand the range of scores for Minnesota was very large. So we have a lot of kids who are not doing well in science there offset by a lot of kids who are doing well, but we still have a lot of kids that we're leaving in the dust basically and I think that would contribute to some of what you're talking about in there to is it was essentially the same kids the same fourth graders who did well in science who did very mediocre job with mathematics shall we can't say? Well it's because the kids are somehow deficient in mathematics. It forces us. I think to look at particular mathematics to look at what we're teaching how that compares with the rest of the world. And how are teaching it and then how well the kids are learning it but it was essentially the same kids really changes the nature of the investigation and that's why the Tim state is particularly helpful because we learn from in this is Minnesota Tim Staton now that in terms of the number of topics that 4th grade math teacher try to teach in a given year. We are above the international average that says we're trying to teach more than most countries try to teach their fourth graders. What difference does that make? Well, if you're trying to teach more topics you have less time to go into any one of them in-depth and what we've already learned from the 8th grade Tim's result is it there's a dramatic difference in the u.s. Curriculum by 8th grade particularly in mathematics. We try to cover many more topics than most other countries try to cover and so are Cricket on was described there as a mile wide and an inch deep and what we see at the 4th grade level is that pattern is already started already starting in the Elementary grades. We're trying to cover a lot of Probably not doing as good a job in depth. For some reason it doesn't happen in science, but it does start to happen in mathematics, but knowing it's the same kids then forces us to look at what's going on in classrooms the use of textbooks or other materials and then also instructional strategies back to the phone. So Trish has it on the line with a question that place Which country? All the parts of the world also took part in the tens test. Yeah, that's my Christian. Well, do ya countries vary depending on the grade level of Tim's at the 8th grade? There were some Sum 41 countries at the 4th grade. There were fewer countries with 26, but the sampling the kind of countries was essentially the same a mix of Asian central European Middle Eastern and then the Western hemisphere countries was essentially the same kind of mixed although fewer countries at the fourth grade level. Now are these legitimate elsewhere around the country are these legitimate 4th graders and eighth graders and and a high school senior type people. I heard some criticism for example, in terms of the year. The 12th grader is that an eye was Iceland or someplace? They were actually including people who would be like our college or college seniors as opposed to high school seniors. Are these are we measuring the same kids around the world with a stash. We absolutely are measuring the same. It's particularly at the 4th and 8th grade level. Are you right? Kerry there has been some criticism of Tim's at the 12th grade level and that reflects the fact that what we call High School in this country is played out differently in other countries in some cases quite a bit differently. So the average age of a graduating high school senior, in other countries can be either higher than or lower than in the United States. If you look at school from first grade through eighth grade, it's very similar around the world and furthermore that Tim sampling requirements were very stringent so that if countries were scores were reflected in the Tim's reports it meant they met those very demanding sampling requirements so that we can say at 4th and 8th. We really are comparing Apples to Apples and that's a message for those of us in this country. Cuz I think in the past too often to take leave during the 1980s when we had a Spate of reports it but the US in the cellar and math and science too often. We said well, they're just Skimming off their best kids and testing them and we're testing all our kids and it's not fair this time around we can't say that this really is an apples-to-apples comparison to your question, please. So I'd like to say I agree that frequently are kids aren't getting enough science instruction and when my son was in grade school, I saw that very clearly so I took some steps to try to correct that I subscribe to popular science of Popular Mechanics and my son's name and he's very interested in those magazines. He reads them cover to cover we subscribe to several other Scientific American and the American Association for advancement of science where members there so and Archeology today, I have subscribed to a number of scientific magazines hoping that my son will get more information regarding science. But I had a question about these competency test just as there seems to be a minimum threshold for a passing score on these can there be A grade at which students could take this test and show competency and test out of certain subjects could they then concentrate on other subjects that they might not be doing so well at so you're here talking about the way the graduation standards. Okay, Lori, you know anything about that Well, my guess would be that those are the decisions that are being made at the local level. Each school district will make their decisions about how the standards are implemented in their district and the assessments that go with them and how you know, which students will pass that standard and how that would be my guess. So about the Minnesota graduation standards another way in which our new grad standards differ from what we've had in the past. Is that in the past we judged learning by sea time. How many courses did you take? How long did you sit there? Did you sit there? Successfully. Did you get at least a D minus in your high school science or Math course, if you did we as a state judge that you had learned and we gave you a diploma now at the graduation standards were saying it's not a matter of how much time you put in but whether you really learn the material and that's whether you learn enough then was reflected in a number of ways by the assessment tool taking the courses. To take or in fact, you might be able to show that you had already learned the material in this gets hit that's question. For example, if your daughter or son excels and science or math, they may not have to take courses in those topics. Would you play the more advanced ones if they can show their local school district that they know that material and they would probably show it by showing evidence of an experience that had some accelerated math or science program outside of the schools or some other Advanced experience with documentation that shows they learn that material and in that case they wouldn't have to take the course, but they really had demonstrated their learning a shower about some new test results chart that are out today. These are tests that were administered to Minnesota 4th graders. The tests were given 3 years ago back in 1995 and the results were compared to hear Minnesota with students 4th grade students who took the test in 26 other nations. And it turns out that the Minnesota students did very very well in science. So just a handful of Nations did better math. We're about to about average and this hour we're talking about what those test results mean for a Minnesota school students. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call. We've been joined this hour by to folks with the sign math Minnesota organization. This is a nonprofit organization, which is what sponsored the states participation in the third international math and science study and is actively involved in trying to improve science and math education in the state of Minnesota Bill Linder shoulder is with us executive director of cymath and Laura Peterman is here science projects manager for science math, Minnesota again, we invite you to drink give us a call. Join our conversation to 276 thousand to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one 802-422-8282 76000 or 1 800-242-2828 and we'll get this more collars and just a moment. Like this beautiful Upland old-growth cloudforest. Something's the matter. I'm Mary Lozier this week on all things considered we examine a scientific mystery the worldwide Vanishing of frog Especial series at 5:30 on Minnesota Public Radio k n o w FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities. Also an invitation to join us over the noon hour today or we're going to be broadcasting a special documentary called an optimist in spite of all Helen Keller's life story 30 years ago today Helen Keller died after cutting a pretty wide swath really she is one of the most influential people of the 20th century and look back on her life over the noon hour today by the way, a reminder that major funding for Minnesota public radio's documentary fund just provided by Phyllis Taylor in memory of Walter stremmel. We have update did the state and Twin City forecast pass along that looks like we can expect us some showers may be a thunderstorm in northern Minnesota and there's a chance for showers and thunder showers across southern Minnesota as well this afternoon with highs ranging from 60° in the North to the low-80s in the southwest tonight to showers maybe a thundershower with a low mid thirties in the Northeast low 50s in the south. And then cloudy to partly cloudy tomorrow and fairly cool with high temperatures just in the low 50s and the North Upper 60s in the Southwest. Twin City forecast hot off the presses here. We can look for a 40000 partly cloudy Sky 40% chance for a shower or thundershower in the Twin Cities this afternoon, we could get some hail yet today. I 75 to 80 tonight 40% chance for rain with a low around 50 cloudy to partly cloudy tomorrow with a high just 60 to 65 degrees currently in the Twin Cities. We have a sunny sky and its 68° we're talking this hour about some new test results that are out of the third international math and science study test results are out measuring 4th graders are in Minnesota against students in 26 other nations and the test results are pretty encouraging Minnesota school students are doing well and science Corning Police test results and about average in math. This hour were talking about what that means for Minnesota education. And if you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call to 276 thousand is art Sun City area number to 276 Thousand Oaks. I'd the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll-free at 1 800 to +422-828-227-6000 or one 800-242-2828. Laura Peterman is weather science projects manager for cymath Minnesota. And also with his bill Linder scholer executive director cymath Minnesota. That's the organization that sponsored Minnesota's participation in this International testing program. Teachers apparently have complained that too many mothers complain about three things as I understand it. Number one. There's too much. of a spread among students terms of academic ability that the student-teacher ratio is too large and that discipline is a problem. Let's talk about at least the the academic ability spread. Should we be moving more and more toward grouping students by ability right out of the Chute making sure that the best students are are at odd in one classroom and and other students in another room. The evidence is mixed Gary. It's a very controversial topic. And I think it's interesting to look at two things. One is what is your common sense tells you tell you that is that it's probably easier to teach in a situation where you have a smaller class size and you have students more closely grouped by ability on the other hand, but we know from the Tim's data both of the 8th grade from last year in 4th grade this year. Is that the countries that do very well on Tim's the high-performing science and math countries get along with much larger class sizes than we have and their teachers actually complain more lovely than our teachers do about these very same thing about the ability spread about the student teacher ratio numbers class size and even about discipline. So we need to roll at all together. Clearly. Let's take class as clearly Quest size does make a difference. But there's lots of research research to show that you need to get the class size way down before it makes a significant difference in the learning of students. And again, it's interesting to note that say Korea which was the top-performing country and Science and the second top country in mathematics at the fourth grade level has huge class sizes largest class sizes in the world, 43 44 45 students as compared to our 25 on average so somehow there's more to it and even though it would be wonderful to have very small class sizes across the state the reality and I think our legislature knows this is it they'll never be enough money to get the class sizes way way down there. So we need to find other ways of delivering Effective Education doll kit Lori, you spent a lot of years in high school classrooms in the anoka-hennepin district. What do you make of this? What what about Issue of the class size. For example how important really is that? In science, I think it's incredibly important because I think it's a huge safety issue. If you're going to have kids doing Hands-On working independently doing scientific inquiry. It's really important that the teacher can can watch those kids and make sure that they have a safe environment in which to learn. So I'm in my own experience. I taught 11 years of junior high and then I also taught some high school is the class size makes a difference in the teachers attitude and how they perceive their their job and they're able to do a lot more one-on-one with a smaller class and they feel more effective in their job with a smaller class the Korean example where they have the super large classrooms in the kids apparently are just wizkids the Korean teachers 62% of the Korean teachers report that a high student teacher ratio limits how they teach quite a lot or a great deal so that the Korean teachers are not happy with that situation either. The kids seem to be learning a lot. According to this test their they're learning more about the idea of trying to group more and more moving toward grouping kids. According to Ability. Does that make sense of it in terms of the classroom as a classroom teacher? My own experience is and I taught classes where I had all the kids, and I also taught some classes that were grouped, and I I thought that actually more learning occurred in those course is why I had all the kids at once. I think the kids learn from each other. I don't think the smart kids were the quote on quote smart kids were penalized by that, but I also think that those kids who were of lower ability to learn more because more was expected of them. I think a lot of it has to do with expectations, and there are ways to differentiate your teaching for four different kids in your classroom to 276 thousands are Twin City area number if you'd like to join our conversation with John about some new test results without indicating Minnesota 4th graders are when compared with their peers and other nations are doing quite well in terms of science and about average in terms of math to 276 thousand Twin City area number outside the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828 Doing our conversation this our glad place. How much does one of these things cost to do? What are you? Okay, what is the cost of a for Minnesota station the cost was about $350,000 and what we got for that money. So to speak was the results from the student testing at grades for eight and twelve and one additional tests and we haven't seen the results for that yet. And it was a performance test how kids did in a sort of a Hands-On science and math test and then in addition and the really rich part is the contextual data that we are getting from question year is that were administered to classroom teachers parents and administrators and students at the same time. The tests were given so we get that kind of data at all three grade levels again for 8 and 12th and that helps ask it at the wise why did kids do as they did it each grade State funding used to pay for the tape finding used? I think you I was a teacher in Korea for a year and I taught English there. I also had the opportunity to observe some High School classrooms and our structure is just so different. I don't see how we can compare the American schools to Korean schools when the teacher comes in in Korea all the students and up and bow to the teacher there Justice the whole reverence toward education of the teacher and the involvement of the parents is incredibly different than it is here. And I'm just wondering what your comment is about that before you hang up their Suzanne a better or worse or just different. Well, I just think it's different. I die. I hope I have a sister who's a teacher here in high school and believe me the reference for the teachers and for learning. It's just not at all the same as it is in Korea. So I just decided to me it's it's not comparing equal. Okay, what about that that issue Suzanne has a point there is a large influence on education achievement by Sir the culture around kids and test like Tim's don't do a good job of measuring that fact. There's no instrument in the world that really measures cultural values. We do have some evidence on this and work some questions in Tim's about attitudes for example student and parent attitudes about math and science what we learn from that too small piece, but it may be indicative of the same kind of thing at Suzanne's talking about is that when kids in this country at both grades four and eight were asked how they feel about how they're doing in math and science. They responded we're doing well when kids in the Asian countries were asked the same question. These are kids who are generally the high-performing students the highest-performing of all the countries. They said we're not doing very well. We're not satisfied with our performance. So there may be something in the Apt it's reflective of those larger cultural values, but it is hard to compare country to Country because it's hard to measure that sort of ethic for Education whether it exists and how it exists in the country. I think what it does for us though is call us back to the parts of Education that we can we can see what is it that we are teaching. What is it about how we're teaching it that we can control where can we make a difference and it was some videotapes studies Edition. All this other stuff is a part of Tim's there were videotape studies in Germany, Japan and the United States and went into mathematics classrooms and they simply videotape what was going on in there those classrooms and the differences that Suzanne was talking about. We're very striking. Particularly in the Japanese. This was an eighth grade math class. The students were sitting neatly in orderly in their desks. All in Rose. There were no interruptions during the hour. No Squawk Box in the corner with the principal breaking in to make announcement. None of the kind of interruptions that are typical in American classrooms. And it's that kind of subtle background stuff. I think that we need to look at cuz those are controllable factors How We As Americans value education and whether we're expecting enough of our kids that's a tougher issue, but we all on that responsibility if you should we should we run a tighter classroom. You think Lori should these classrooms be be a little more structured rather than having kids running around willy-nilly and and all the disruptions Step 2 at the Village talking about I think you can walk into any school and see a whole variety of classroom structures and as from real tight and very, Adjective very loose just basically on the style of the teacher and I think that's a A+ that we have in our education system is that I as a parent can go in and say this is how my child is do have a teacher that would suit my child. My my student needs a rigid class or my child needs some more nurturing or my child needs more looseness the other thing to think about whether you know, the cultural influences and all that. There are still certain things in math and science and English and the different subjects. There are things that are kids need to know and be able to do regardless of which country they live in they need to know those things and I think that's one of the things that Tim's can show us. Is it regardless of They set out the curriculum and said this is what kids across the world need to know now regardless of culture. Let's see how they know them. And if our kids are going to compete globally with kids from Korea or Saudi Arabia or wherever they still need to know those things regardless of how their classroom is structured. Do we need a Statewide curriculum then National curriculum. I think we need just what we have that is to say we need Statewide standards. There's a difference between standards which are very broad statements of knowledge. You should know the essence Owen's Science, you should know this and so on Mathematics Curriculum on the other hand tells a school and a teacher exactly how to deliver on those big ideas in the past before grad standard. Minnesota didn't have even the most fundamental statements of what we all agreed on kitchen knowing Math and Science. Now we have that we have the big picture and I think that's about what the state should do. It's still up to the Asterix and schools and in the end classroom teachers to figure out how to deliver on those ideas. So an eighth grader is supposed to know geometry. Well, what's geometry and how much how much does the teacher take out of the textbook? How much does she or he pass by all those decisions are properly left to the the local level. So there's still a huge amount of flexibility and how schools will implement the standard but at least we've got everybody on the same page. Now, we've got Statewide agreement on the big picture ideas miles your question place. Okay, we had Chevrolet testing center on foreign exchange students you okay? You don't have expectations of the country. Well, you know, we've heard that for a long long time, but you have to test results seem to indicate that our kids are at least doing as well. If not better particularly at the 4th grade level. It's helpful to look out then across the grade levels and see how we do the story. I think it's a little different at the eighth grade and the colors remarks about expectations that seemed sort of intangible this about education affect her education expectations nationally, but we learned an interesting thing last year with Timbs when I came to International expectations, we learned that at the 8th grade most of the rest of the world considers algebra and geometry to be basic for 8th grade mathematics. And it was particularly dramatic finding because Minnesota had just put in place the Statewide 8th grade basic skills test. This is the test that all kids will have to pass to get a diploma now on Minnesota and it was no algebra and no geometry in that test. We had clearly set the bar way too low if you believe in international standards, but on the other hand not to belabor this point, but while our standards have been theoretically Ben Solo in all these areas the fact of the matter is the United States is Far and Away the worldwide leader in terms of Information Technology computers all of that. How do you explain that? Very clear and easy explanation. Actually, we have the best graduate schools and Science and Engineering in the world Bar None. We educate the rest of the world. If you want to talk about production and Nobel laureates or the output of technology companies if it's a very clear correlation, we educate the When it comes to graduate school and Science and Engineering if you went over to the Institute of Technology at the University of Minnesota, that's this state's leading engineering school. You would see at least half perhaps more of the students in those programs particularly in Computing software engineering the hottest topics. You would see our foreign Nationals. They come here to be educated at The Graduate level the good news for the United States is many of them stay on and go to work for us either in our government or private companies, but it's it's no surprise why we do so well when you get to the end of the pipeline because we have very strong programs. It's also true that undergraduate education particularly Science and Engineering in many of the countries that do well in Tim's is very poor to their students do well with K through 12. And then if they really want to go to the top they tend to come to the United States or one of the European countries for The Graduate education. We talked earlier about the low enrollment in math and science and in Minnesota high schools, and I think expectations has a lot to do with that not all kids are expected to take Math and Science as high school student. Not a lot of time left, but let's get at least one more call around here Samuel. What effect do you feel that television viewing has on Minnesota school standards? Perhaps it doesn't affect the area of math and science very highly but you feel that this has any effect on either expectations or levels of knowledge or learning very good question and one that's comes up frequently in discussions of Education in educational achievement as it turns out though, that's one of the interesting things about Tim's it exploded that myth in this country that or kids do poorly because they watch too much TV as it turns out us kids at Minnesota kids don't watch any more TV than the high-performing than kids in the high performing teams. And some of the those countries have the higher rate of TV watching so assertive like the time on task. Our kids are getting as much time on Math and Science Education. They're getting no more time on TV than kids in other countries. Another interesting fact that came out with a Tim's at both the eighth grade and in particular from the 12th grade us level the fact that us high school students work a significant amount is very unusual around the world. Almost no other country reported anywhere near the level of part-time employment by high school students at the u.s. Test but as it turns out kids were working triquetra. What is something like about 15 hours a week do pretty well from the US. Unfortunately, we have run out of time. But thanks so much for coming in today. Hope we going to have a fourth round of these tests now or is this it? No, not that we know of it hasn't been scheduled yet. Probably been 20 years out. Thanks so much for coming in today. I guess this our bill Linder shoulder who is executive director of cymath Minnesota. Laura. Peterman is jaundice. She's a project science project manager for cymath Minnesota taking a look at these new test results will continue with midday in a moment. I this is Jon Burge. If you like a picnic still want to get one ready for Friday, June 5th at the Lake Harriet Bandshell. I'll be on stage and on the air at 4. Then at 7. You will be treated to a free concert by piano Duo, Julia and Irina. Tina baritone Joe Carter and the Summit Hill brass quintet so pack up the dinner the lawn chair and the kids and kick off the summer with Minnesota Public Radio on the air and in the park a free concert, June 5th at the Lake Harriet Bandshell. I'll see you there. It is time now for The Writer's Almanac with Garrison Keillor.