Thank you Gratis. Six minutes past 11 today's programming is made possible in part by The Advocates of Minnesota Public Radio contributors include Cargill supporting Minnesota's tradition of community service and Northwest foundation on behalf of Northwest investment management and Trust. Hey, good morning. Welcome to mid-day on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten. Glad you could join us. Well today is Bebop day in Minnesota the time each year when minnesotans are encouraged to leave their car at home and use some alternate way to get around by your boss or carpool. Ultimately the goal is to help relieve Highway congestion by getting people off the highways some roads, of course are already crowded and experts say things will only get worse as the region continues to grow. That's how we're going to take a closer look at Bebop day and I weigh congestion. Just how bad is it? Where are the hotspots? And what does the future hold joining us here in the studio are two men who keep close tabs on Twin Cities Road way is Bob McFarland with the Minnesota Department of Transportation and John lundell who is with Metro traffic control. Also, we're going to be opening the phone line so that you can join our conversation. Let me give you the phone number now, you might jot it down and give us a call in just a moment Twin City area number is to two Oven 6000 to 276 thousand if you're calling from outside the Twin Cities. The number is 1 800 to +422-828-227-6000 or one 802-422-8028. First of all before we talk cars and highways in the like let's check in with Bebop officials joining us now is Trish Moga the manager of metro commuter Services good morning understand your telecommunity commuting today. This is the 7th annual Bebop day as I understand it any idea how many people have been participating today not active numbers right. Now. What we've done is we've ask employers to give us some feedback on the kinds of programs at their facilitating at their various sites. Once they've completed we think it's grown every year. We are trying new things each year as an example this year. There are bike rides into the Twin Cities. Play if you have had more participation each year, as this is going along different kinds of activities that have been tried at the various sites. What kind of carryover have you have? You found the people get all fired up about this one day do they generally stick with it for a while or their old ways? Advantages and to get them to try it on one day and to see that one. You probably can save some time. You can save some money. It doesn't interrupt your schedule and it does make a difference in Twin Cities Road waste the opportunity there for that one day to try at the hope is that they'll dispel some of the fears they have and then go on and try it we have seen some success in that area are people who have tried the bike rides people who try the bus for the day or even people who said well, okay, I think I can try to pool today and find out that it does work and it works quite well for them. As far as more people aren't willing to use some of these Transportation alternatives for sure. They work we've done with various employers. We find there still is beliefs that transitive is more expensive than trying some of these other modes and Specifically looking at driving alone. And what we find is it when when people try to compare those costs what they'll do is they'll look at the cost to stay a monthly bus pass and then they'll just compare that to the cost of parking in their in their various facilities and they don't take into consideration the cost of gasoline wear-and-tear maintenance some of the other things that that go on. So in educating him that that's an important thing for us to do I bet you folks have a phone number and a website where people can get some more information for 33 where they can hook up for a website through the Metro council site, which is www.metrocu.org 349 ride or www.metrocu.org. Appreciate your joining us. Chris Maga, who is the manager of a metro commuter services for Bob McFarland is the public affairs director for the Minnesota Department transportation. John lundell is the director of information for Metro traffic control which provides traffic reports to several Twin Cities area radio stations. They've joined us here in the studio this morning talk little bit now about traffic congestion. And once again, we invite you to join our conversation, give us a call Twin City area number is 227-6002 to 7 6008 side the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828 growth opportunity to talk a little bit this morning about the what it's like out on the roadways and what it's going to be like in the next several years gentleman. Thanks for coming in this morning. Thank you. I suppose this being Bebop day. There was actually no traffic on any of the roadways this morning John. I thought you were out. I'm sure looking things over. It was a fairly normal busy morning. This morning, you know, you ain't in bed, but that's not to say Bebop isn't successful. What do you know? What happens there? Any rush hour? There are so many variables that they can occur one accident in a critical structure free waken can make for a long morning that that continues long past. The incident itself is cleared. So if it's hard to gauge from the traffic of a morning rush-hour whether or not a program like Bebop is Success 4-minute hot water over the transportation department. Do you think that program specific program the Bebop day has had much impact in terms of getting people out of their cars. I think that's hard to gauge but I think it's a very effective program and getting people to think about Alternatives in and it's not just a goal of getting people out of their cars. It's also the goal of getting people to use their cars differently congestion in the metropolitan area is really a Time specific problem morning rush-hour afternoon, rush-hour and through a variety of Means if we can get people to think about driving at different times driving on different routes, think about the impact that they have on driving always from 7:30 to 8:30 in the morning on the interstate freeways. That's really the goal of something like Bebop to think about alternatives to put in your vehicle on an interstate freeway at the peak time. So in the metropolitan area, nothing probably has a greater impact than that would Bob is talking about face the timing of the drive and we're past the time when in past the space where we can build freeways are build accommodations that are only effective for 4 hours of the 24 in the day at for the 2 in the morning to 2 in the afternoon. It doesn't make sense to have six Lanes wide a freeway that are virtually empty the rest of the day except for those hours so that the alternatives are these things of Staggering your drive times a different route into work at 9 freeway River beautiful morning. It would have been to a coming around Lake Phalen or Lake, Minnetonka. Other than 394 or 36 or 94 do it to get to experience this morning. So changing your own behavior is really the only difference and that's why I Bebop is successful is by mention if it keeps it in the eye keeps in the public eye then. It's a good program. I think you should I was very excited to hear that that Trish Moga was at home telecommuting and you don't necessarily need to telecommute all day to be a telecommuter if Trisha's at home. I had access to a computer checks, her email does a couple things and then leaves for work at 9 a.m. She's had a tremendous beneficial impact on reducing congestion at least to the extent that she can with her one car if she leaves at 9 utilizes that that hour hour-and-a-half at home through telecommuting. That's one less car on the road between 7:30 and 8:30, and I'm really excited that she was she was taking that route on Bebop. So when we talked about traffic congestion, at least today, what we're really talking about is traffic congestion during rush hour. Is that right? Generally that's what we talk about when we talk about traffic congestion were talking about the Rush Hour the in the drive to work or the drive from work. Now, there are so many other circumstances Friday afternoon was a good example in the weather came through the rush-hour suddenly became the rush hours and then went into the evening and I'm leaving in the morning the next day because power lines were down in flooded roads. And yesterday we had there the day before yesterday cuz we had to heat problems or two months ahead of schedule. We had roads buckling from the heat humidity in traffic combination. So those mitigating circumstances can can certainly extend any rush hour, but the normal commute the normal rush hour We're talkin couple hours in the morning couple hours at night. What is rush hour? When does it start? When does it end as a rule in the Twin Cities? Kbem Indian dates are the traffic Services would start generally around 6 in the morning for additionally information-gathering about 5:30 and would continue until 8:30 or 9. The real rush hours themselves. I would say between 7 and 8:30 is a critical morning time in the afternoons. It it tends to drag a little bit bit more traditionally people thought the morning rush-hour has been more significant by recent years. If out afternoon rush hours to be more significant to the crash that he's even show a greater number of accidents and activity in the afternoons now the morning so I from 3:30 until at least 5:30 or 6 in the afternoon. Very good point and that is right right. Now today we suffer are the greatest congestion during those rush hours. That's where we lose the most productivity. We have the most environmental impact and most frustration. But over the next 20 years those rush hours are going to expand we're going to add some 650,000 people to this metropolitan area. We're going to add about two and a half million vehicle trips per day to the metropolitan area and they're not all going to occur during the rush hour times at John just talked about our traffic problems are going to expand Beyond those those particular times of day and we're going to see more noontime congestion. We're going to see more evening at congestion pass Six. It's just the nature of a growing metropolitan area and that's so if you can start to do things with Bebop or you will you get people to look at Alternatives those alternatives are going to play well in the future introducing congestion throughout the day. Where are the hotspots right now where it where do we have the worst problems? Is it? Is it suburb to suburb downtown to downtown suburb downtown? Or all of the above like remember 15 years ago. It would that would that would have been the easily answered that the people, you know head toward the downtown in the morning and they go back out in the afternoons, but now with businesses locating in the suburbs and major employers out on 494 would go Carlson in Prudential in the NFL line new housing up in Maple Grove that the freeway is really weren't built to accommodate those types of berries Woodbury is well received more suburb to suburb. I almost as much as a good example, I guess is 35W one of the biggest headaches of the of the Midwest it between Minneapolis and Richfield and Burnsville morning and afternoon, Rush Hour 3 call either side can be just as the latest the other people coming and going to him to and fro either way. It doesn't doesn't make much difference and one of the unique features of a rush hour and really it's only unique to the ER in common with the weather is it it's something that we experience as a masked every everyday we each experience the same weather we experience the same traffic so it keeps the program. Weather coming up by the metered ramps for instance set highly effective program one that statistically holds up under scrutiny as being a wonderful program, but the phone calls of of aggravation of frustration by people are are there because they're experiencing the program experiencing that the experiment in progress is hard to do that can't do that a Clothes Closet. This is something that we have to do and I say we meeting as in a society, but men. Especially as an agency has to do public lyrics it's invalid if it's not done with the public, but it's it's a frustration point, but one that I can hold up under scrutiny. We're talking a shower about traffic congestion in the Twin City metropolitan area what it's like now and what we can expect it to be like over the next 20 years or so and what might be done to deal with that traffic congestion. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call Twin City area number is 227-6002 276 thousand out side the Twin Cities one 802-4228 28227 6000 or 1 800-242-2828 John lundell is with us. He is a longtime voice of Metro traffic control. What you hear on a mini Twin City area radio stations. Bob McFarland is with us public affairs director for the Minnesota Department of Transportation John before we get to our callers. Would you please say slow and go stop and go for us just mention Spaghetti Junction at all too slow and go Bumper to Bumper stop and get Larry your question place or number of yours, and it's something I just worked into graduate. Like when an old car died instead of getting a new car. I I thought I'd star busing and maybe biking once a month and I did it's kind of just changing a habit. I guess. That's why I would like to see something like that be bought thing happened was two more regularity in the summertime like maybe the first Tuesday of the month for 3. Something cuz I think if people start to change their thinking a little bit it's really not that hard to do. I mean I change clothes with me and I end up having to go downtown a bit then and it's kind of nice because I don't have to deal with parking ramps and stuff. I can just lock up right where I go, but it took a little bit of fuck how to make the transition of change of clothes with me having some rain gear things like that. But once they make that change and it spits requires, I think more than just thinking about a year to actually get yourself is there much obviously I would assume there's a lot of growth potential in terms of getting people on bicycles. Is it realistic to assume that a lot more people will will be out after using their bicycles instead of cars depends on your definition of a lot certainly biking to work is not something that that would be Universal. Acceptable for most people do we are certainly spending a lot more time and money designing bike trails designing opportunities for safe biking on a roadways with the with bike shoulders in the like and if it works for people during the months of of the year of Minnesota where where biking is is we can actually hang on to the handlebars. You know that it's a it's a very helpful helpful thing for people do I know downtown Minneapolis is encouraging biking a great deal and with the cedar bike trail in the lake, but certainly it's not for everybody and then and if it works for for Larry and others, that's right. And it was there a lot of people do any of these programs I think is is a moot point is so much as if those who can do these programs do because it is it's amazing how how much of an impact just a few changes make it those who can telecommunicator I work at at home if those who can carpool do and those who can bike do if that makes the big difference all of it combined a few in each area will collectively make the number that's not in terms of of trying to come up with policies though. Don't you run into the situation where a good many people say, that's a great program for somebody or the other guy. Where are you? We have to be very realistic about what but we're competing with we're competing with the automobile and there still is an end. Despite this being Bebop day. It's still very difficult to come up with a Transit solution. That is more convenient than the personal automobile. We can come up with Transit solutions that are less expensive. We can come up with Transit solutions that are more environmentally sensitive than the automobile, but in terms of your convenience and ability to move around an unimpeded and Duo The chores that people need to do today driving alone in your car is still probably the most convenient and so that's that's where you get this. That's a great idea. I hope somebody else ride Light Rail and I hope somebody else rides the bus cuz that'll make my commute easier Leo York St. Paul and I live in Highland Park. So it's only about a Four Mile Drive and I do Drive in every day because of the profession required to dress professionally were students etcetera and I have a bike and I buy call the time for recreation. But because there's no lock room facilities are really no way for me to change my clothes when I get to work. I really can't take my bike and I could probably think of probably 3 days a week where that would be possible for me where it would be actually preferable. I could combine exercising with commuting I could get rid of some of the congestion I could save money in my car. There's lots of things that would make it better but really most Buildings and workplaces are set up under very old paradigm. Mupirocin Indian in your position where it where you really are locked into driving your car and probably driving alone because you're you're not working and living near people that work with you. Then, you know, you're the one that falls in the category is Bob with matching changing the driving habits. So maybe taking a different route into I relieve the congestion coming off of Snelling Avenue coming in from Highland Port 94 up Kellogg or one or wherever you go or changing your driving. I am leaving at the half hour earlier half hour later that helps as much as a person on their by could help in the area certainly of pollution in the end of the environment but it helps in the congestion area is also also sounds in that circumstance that there may be some some barriers or some incentives that employees could bring to the attention of you of the employer or of the building manager if they're leasing space to say, you know, we have employees that have an interest in in riding their bike to work, but we don't have the facilities to support that interest. Is there anyway we can collectively You can help provide facilities for lockers showers Locker space for bicycles. And and that's something that when the employees bring that forward to employers we found is that the employers have tended to be very receptive to those kinds of ideas on the other side of it should employers get out of the business of subsidizing parking. Well, I think that again that's something between the employers and their employees who because we also have employers who are subsidizing bus passes a Transit facilities. They will subsidize carpool parking. I don't know if you're going to be able to affect the kind of change that that you would need to to reduce congestion by increasing government mandates on employers locally a good example of Private Business had not been involved. One of the the leaders in car pulling in and ride sharing is 3M babe. They pioneered lie to that program and they did it as a benefit to their employees and actually and it's transitioned into government programs and end in partnering with the government and major areas. Some companies do need to be involved to the extent that their employees are involved in the problem. Tom your next I'm an over-the-road truck driver in and I know every time I go through Chicago, I I usually try to go through it about midnight in order to avoid the tremendous traffic during the stop-and-start type of driving but Minneapolis-St Paul are getting just about as bad during certain parts of the time and part of it is a design of the highways that we have that we are merging nature highways together and and also the belt line that goes around the Twin Cities is inadequate to handle traffic. So therefore you don't have the option of going around the city you might as well go right through it cuz it's going to be the same type of start and stop and so and they have to buy every time I listen to one of these programs they're talking about the fact nothing's going to be done with highways in the near future even in the distant future. Bob why I think it's Tom raises of a very good point we do have capacity problems for the traffic we have today in the metropolitan area and capacity problems, especially for the traffic. We anticipating the future. Let me repeat a couple of numbers. We expect the region to grow by 650000 people in the next 20 years two and a half million vehicle trips per day. We currently have about a hundred miles of our freeway system in the metropolitan area congested during peak times during the day. We expect that number of miles to double in the next 20 years over the last 20 years. We built something in the range of 200 miles of new Freeway highway in the metropolitan area in the next 20 years were expecting to build something less than 20. So that's what makes things like Bebop day and the emphasis on alternative. So important the resource is also to build the End of capacity if you felt you wanted to Simply is not there. You know, we we have a $0.20 gas tax in this state. It hasn't been raised since 1988 and that the financial resources simply are not there to build the kind of system. The Tom would probably like is an over-the-road trucker. So is it a function the problem? That's the only thing the catchphrase is that just a function of lack of money want to try because you would you to actually build your way out of congestion at all times during the day would would have tremendously and impacts in the metropolitan area. And I don't think there's this metropolitan area wants to look like Los Angeles with their with their 12 Lane freeways in and the light but it is a significant resource question over the next 20 years. the metropolitan area is faced with about 10 billion dollars in transportation needs to essentially keep traffic levels and congestion and and the like Equal with what it is today. That's just to keep things equal and slightly better than what they are today to address. The growing needs. We have about three and a half billion dollars available right now for that purpose. And so resources are very very difficult question me some of the design problems if it were mentioned as well. You know, what they have it have been addressed Indian some subtle ways in which one of the big projects that's on the table and dreaming public. Everyone's looking at it down to 35 W across town where there's a huge problem with traffic merging attorney and getting Every Witch Way, that's that's being fixed. That's being addressed Spaghetti Junction. I referred to earlier could now more that have to be called the capital it or change then it was spaghetti because now it's no longer the spaghetti bowl with redesigns that were made as the problems, you know, come up at their address is as much as they can but building the freeway at what point is it is is enough enough is as far as freeways and when do we have to stop trying to accommodate the phone in more realistically adjust ourselves what we have or talking this out? About traffic congestion. This is Bebop there. We thought it'd be a great opportunity to take a look at just what the situation is out on the roads now and what we can expect in the future and some ways to deal with the league. We just in congestion and the anticipated increase and congestion over the next few years joining us here in the studio Bob McFarland public affairs director for the Minnesota Department of Transportation. John lundell is with us director of information for Metro traffic control. And again, if you'd like to join our conversation the number to call to 276 thousand in the Twin Cities to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one 802-422-8280 get us some more colors in just a moment. Minnesota Public Radio takes you there to a cool deep lake in northern Minnesota only but they're kind of mysterious because they're hard to catch 4 news that intrigues music that in chance talk to the challenges, Minnesota Public Radio takes you there. Become a member call one 800-227-2811. You have probably seen the headlines in the newspapers heard the stories on the radio or TV about the crisis in Indonesia. And today over the noon hour. We're going to try to sort out exactly what's happening in Indonesia and why it is that so many people are so concerned about that situation. Not just people in Indonesia, but people all around the world United States included. I will be talking about that situation over the noon hour today great opportunity to learn a little bit more about this situation crisis and get your questions answered. So that will be coming up over the noon hour Sunny to partly sunny skies are forecast for Minnesota highest today mid-60s in the Northeast near 80 in southern Minnesota Twin Cities partly cloudy with a high in the middle seventies right now in the Twin City area. We have a partly cloudy Sky 65°, we're talking this hour about traffic congestion and what it's like now what it's going. Be like in the future and how to deal with that congestion. John lundell is with us for Metro traffic control. Bob. McFarland is with us from the Minnesota Department of Transportation. And again, if you'd like to join us to 276 thousand Twin Cities or one 800-242-2828. I should ask before we get back to our callers. Is this just a problem in the Twin Cities or if their problems developing outside the Twin Cities are we're seeing traffic pressures in our other smaller metropolitan areas the st. Cloud area Rochester Duluth. I'm certainly not to the magnitude that we have in the metropolitan area, but we are seeing more and more where we're projects Highway projects are being considered designed and built to address address increasing volumes of traffic throughout are there cities Brian go ahead place. Jams, and avoiding them a question regarding the online on ramp metering and whether you've seen over your ears done a change in in traffic patterns if it's health and if you would see it helping more in the future and in small towns like Rochester if they're doing already. I'm not sure about the future tell you hear that over the years. Yes, it has helping and understanding the philosophy of the basic philosophy behind it understand it may help me understand how it helps when you're stuck on a ramp and in the end it's it's red for longer than you think. It should be you look down easy traffic moving through anything after remember, is that what that's really regulating is what's happening, maybe two three four miles up the freeway further down line where there might be a problem no sense putting more traffic on 394 back at the at 494 if there's a problem at the Dunwoody exit rap, if that's it. That's all backed up cuz that's where they're probably going. So that has helped committed it regulates the flow on to the free. Which makes it just a bit easier for the traffic to move on down and we end in din relieve itself a little bit easier cities Bob. I don't know it would have Rochester benefit for metered ramps taking a look at a lot of traffic management technologies that were using in the metropolitan area and then testing their application in in the other metropolitan areas is in the state. I want to make one other comment about ramp meters in John John described there benefits to traffic flow very well, you know has John will note one of the biggest causes of major traffic congestion or traffic incidents and what a lot of those traffic incidents occur where Vehicles merge together and what we have found and we to a great extent ramp metering helps reduce accidents on freeways and that helps those freeways run much more smoothly and a much higher capacities than they would normally Run the traffic was just allowed to come zooming down those ramps on to onto the freeway. So reducing traffic incidents on the freeway is been a tremendous benefit of those right meters in one of the one of the other innovations that the people probably notice but I'm only aware of our the what's now called the rather than an entry ramp like Highway 100 coming out of Highway 55. If you're coming up that ramp all of a sudden boom, you're in 55 mile-per-hour traffic all around you 55 if that if they're going the speed limit here at 8:55, but now that the new freeway is the New Hampshire what's called I called feeder ramps. Were you actually run parallel to the road you might emerge until you can build up that speed and then move in without anybody coming in around you as well because if I mentioned that's a critical point when you're entering the freeway any movement on the freeway other than straightforward becomes your most vulnerable you're changing lanes or if you're entering or exiting have these carpool lanes. Really help very much. I mean, I know a lot of a lot of money and energy has gone into developing those promoting them but you do hear an awful lot of complaints about them. I think they've helped a great deal. We have to carpool lanes. Carpool lanes in the metropolitan area of 394 the HOV lane that runs from 494 all the way into downtown Minneapolis and we have the the HOV lane on 35W and 43904 for example during the morning peak hours about half of the people traveling in that Corridor are traveling in that lane not half the cars half. The people are traveling in that lane either through carpools or riding buses. Now, you take that that traffic to take the carpool lane away and you disperse that traffic maybe 60% of it into single occupant vehicles. And you are going to have a real mess on 394 are they used to the capacity know they are not when we're seeing what we're hoping to see growth in the future. But the lane on 394 is a terrific success. It's ahead of its projected volumes and it's moving a lot of people through that Corridor at the the highest travel times of the day of the problems with the car pooling our our problems again related to miss you some of the carpool lanes through the ramp meter bypasses that you're part of the team Transit programs in MD HOV lane special and 35W. When you have a good number of people who break the rule who use it alone. Then you run into the Catch-22 thinks the Troopers have to enforce that in order for it to to make sense to comply with it if there's no if they even use it without any punishment then why not so they have to get in there and end in divorce it they can only do that during the rush hours when it's being Miss you when they do that. It creates other problems that creates Gawker slow down to flashing red lights to create other backup security incidents within the backups and all the other things that happen. Traffic is very heavy. So you run into this real perception of the part of the public that there's something really wrong with the program, but it's not the program that something's really wrong with its the misuse of that program. Especially the metered ramps with people Zip by and I've had a I get 20 calls in an hour from people in the afternoons. And why is there a Gap here been forcing this thing is that are for 20 minutes, you know, it's never that long but this is certainly seems that long and it seem that long to be a couple times to miss you so much of the program. The program Mac your question, please. My question is. DirecTV Department of Transportation and numb and how money is in efforts are related to driver education creating a better flow of traffic specifically like in the proper use of turn signals and I've always learn to slower traffic to the right always drive to the right, you know, every 10 miles an hour you drive you have a car space, you know a length of a car just the following distance and how I said, I believe that that is related so much to have traffic flow, you know, you know the excess breaking, you know, because you're following to close signaling ahead of time so that people know and they can make adjustments more gradual rather than sudden changes to allow people who just kind of jumping from Lane to Lane and Signal as they turn rather than as a prepared to a measure that I think educational. Overall would create a better flow of traffic and I'm just wondering if it'd been any studies. Are there any efforts made towards educating drivers to kind of make the driving better? You know, and of course some excessive use of car phones is often a lot of problems with his car but I think we'd be out of business with Mac Mac makes a very very good point and it's unfortunate that a lot of the the so-called rules of the road and rules of both curious driving and safe driving seem to go out the window on Urban freeways and especially during rush hour people get tense. We're seeing a lot more road rage and they don't signal properly, especially in the use of the left lane button, but I think with the volumes that we see in the urban area all lanes are go during a rush hour kind of open for for any style of traffic, but Mac makes a good point. We would really urge people. Primarily for the reason of avoiding incidents which are the major cause of serious congestion exercise courteous driving alert driving not be aggressive allow people to merge in give them space change lanes cautiously and everything will flow better. If everyone can kind of take a deep. Your microphone is going bad on us hear me that our headphones are going bad, which is entirely possible as well. If people would have like we walk and I think that's a good example down the sidewalk. If you're if you're removing down the sidewalk you you don't ever just bump into people are or make sudden movements that they are unaware of and it has result that causes problems driving to be the same. I should ask is there we had heard a few years ago. And periodically we hear this that we are close to having a time when you essentially the roadway with guide your car that you just to plug something in the way you go and the computers in the cars in the roadway wood would take care of all the effort report. I don't like to hear that stuff. Do I need to gag? You know, that's is that too is that at all realistic it certainly isn't. In fact, it's called automated highway is actually being tested in the field. I think it's in California on one of the the the new congestion priced Lanes in California where you can actually see cars getting Elaine and the operation of the cars is turned over to computer that is that is controlled by by chips along the roadway and you just end in you're essentially Alone in your car being driven to your location while speed is control the Band hits Cent Eminem. Of course, you have to be able to override to to get off at certain points, but it is it is something that does have potential for the future and is being tested. Do you take a close? Look at the freeway system is Matt was mentioning about people knowing what they're doing anticipating. It's probably nothing that we use on a daily basis. That's more user-friendly that then our freeway system uuc sign saying 46th Street exits into miles. Will you don't need that last 15 feet to make your lane change you could do that to 2 miles ago in a broccoli and all sorts of science the lines on the rotor all meaning something the signs are all means it if we learned all of those things. Nothing nothing is easier to use in a freeway that we come in daily contact with A Barbie you're coming, please. YouTube buckle down and spend the money to put some kind of a light rail system in the Twin Cities because he'll the highway system didn't get built because people were thinking it might be nice to have two lanes instead of just one and it took our parents. Paying the tax dollars in the growth of the good economy at the time also to do that and we've been able to grow the system and add on to it and improve it as we have in the past. But I really think with the people are just early going to be more mobile like you were talking about how many car trips a day that That I really believe that we should that we should spend the money for that and you don't have to spend every dime that we've got but I really think we need to plan for it. And if we don't plan for it'll never happen how realistic is it that we're going to be able that we will have in the Twin City metropolitan area of a full-scale LRT System Light Rail transit system as if they're talking, of course about the one lined on Hiawatha Avenue, there's some talk about an extension on either end so far, but is it realistic to assume that in our lifetimes? We're going to see complete system developed for that's a very good question Gary. I think the metropolitan area is closer today than it ever has been to to its first step into Light Rail plans are underway for building the areas first light rail line between Downtown Minneapolis and the airport and then on to the Mall of America along Hiawatha Avenue, but in terms of of the big system that you Talk about there. A lot of questions that remain to be answered about that resources is is probably first and foremost versus usage of the line connecting Minneapolis to the airport to the Mall of America is anticipated to cause something in the range of 400 million dollars right now only about 60 million dollars of that is specifically identified and there still a long way to go to identify all the money and multiply that by all of the lines that that you're talking about or suggesting an in a region-wide system. Very expensive may be necessary in this metropolitan area quite frankly. The ridership figures are in projected ridership for that kind of investment isn't all that great. You have to kind of take a leap of faith to to think that those ridership numbers are going to be better than than the professionals are projecting. John and I don't think I just goes back a little bit to be popped a there isn't a silver bullet to solving congestion Light Rail alone is not going to relieve congestion in the metropolitan area in any more so than riding the bus is going to be alone is going to relieve congestion in the metropolitan area. It's going to take a combination of efforts. It may be light rail. It may be exclusive bus lanes to improve bus service telecommuting bicycling carpooling bus use all of those things are going to have to have to come together to solve this problem the feedback you get that you get the sense that most people are open to things like taking the bus using a light rail line in the like or do they continue to look at this purely as something for the other guy exactly. I think it's back to it to where we would be in the conversation. So many people like the concept of light railing and buses and biking for someone else to do and it didn't I guess it gets too. The reality of information before Y in an afternoon rush-hour for instance is worse than the morning rush because in the morning in the Light Rail and then the light would be very effective because you're coming generally from home to work everyday same point the same point. I very easy to get into that that motor for the afternoons. You leave it to to run to the mall. You leave to go to the story leave to go to Junior soccer game. You leave to go other places afternoons or much wider than the rush hours aren't just point A to point B to point C D E and F before you get back to a LED light rail may not lend itself to that for a lot of people. There's the cost to factor as well. If Bob was mentioned that is expensive. But now it's going to be a tough sell to my cousin's up in in in kittson county or are my relatives down to Cannon Falls to to to Pony up for my light rail system in the Twin Cities because I created this problem. So that's where we're not alone in this problem. But but we're the ones that are feeling it here, but when we talk about money and funding as opposed to behavioral change that we involve the rest of the state as well. We don't have a lot of time left but let's get at least one more call Iran hear Kirk about traffic patterns in the area one drive. That's the worst. I've heard. I wanted to see a comment. I am married and my wife and I we share one car and even though I'm I'm Consulting a different areas downtown. I've made you for the bus system occasional carpooling and other things and sometimes I get this, is directed to to those kinds of people that are single commuters that are doing it out of convenience and not mess with that necessity that is hard to sympathize sometimes with the traffic problems people complain about when they're really are so many other ways to get to and from places and as one comment to I Chose a living place, you know my my house. I ate carefully looked when we moved to find something that was close enough to a bus. That's where I could walk and I think some few Life Choices can actually make things more simple and less stressful. But thanks for your program. Ask you gentlemen the Assumption here, of course is that congestion will get much worse over time because I'll be so many more people the other part of that though. I suppose there going to be a lot more older people over time and I would guess they just don't drive as much is that going to kind of offset that population growth? The Aging of the population died can't say this for certain, but in the metropolitan Council estimates of population growth in its accompanying traffic growth, I would assume that the age of the demographic was taken into account in in in predicting that increase of 2. 5 million vehicle trips per day as an increase over the next two over the next 20 years did Martin. Well, it's more of a comment. I just came here from Atlanta where they have ozone alerts now getting to be a bit sizes in LA to have paneling Highway 82 and I'm curious that do you anticipate that that being something to be concerned about your and that's in the Twin Cities and to piggyback on a comment earlier that there's Light Rail in Oregon if you studied other cities Light Rail is extensively to see if the system to be compatible with the Twin Cities. We study Light Rail very extensively this this Metropolitan region has studied it since the late sixties. It's one of those the longest ongoing debates about transportation in this region. So I think those factors have been taken into account congestion is a very serious contributor to air. Quality problem. So there is long as you can keep traffic moving. It doesn't contribute to spot air pollution in Ozone alerts as much as traffic that is stopped. Are you waste energy you MIT more emissions and you admit though. He's those emissions and concentrated areas the more congested your freeway is and we find places like I don't want to open up this debate with two minutes to go but in the City of Stillwater the bottleneck of that bridge causes very serious air quality problems in Downtown Stillwater, which is not necessarily in are you would expect to be overly congested so congestion is an environmental problem as well as a Mobility problem. It affects every aspect of our quality of life here in the Twin Cities, whether it's the environment to which is so important the aggravation the road rage the time factors that the appearance of pavement rather than grass dead trees and flowers on the shoulders from exhaust. Whatever. It is a little traffic affected adversely in the end. It all comes together in that what we're so proud of in their quality of life, but it sure is nice to be able to get around sure is got to get in that car and driver. That's why I like going to work at 4 a.m. Is nobody out there, Thanks for coming in today. Thank you. Thank you. Happy Bebop Day to you or I guess that's our Bob McFarland public affairs director for the Minnesota Department of Transportation and John lundell the director of information for Metro traffic control like to thank all of you who've been with us this hour, especially those of you who I called in or tried to call in with your questions and comments and will continue in just a moment. I'm Ray Suarez Ernest Hemingway is considered a master of the short story The Snows of Kilimanjaro and Other Stories contains 10 of Hemingway's most popular Works written in his later years by the autobiographical Fathers and Sons and the spare a clean well-lighted place will take on Hemingway this Thursday on top of the nation's book club of the air from NPR news. Documentation begins at 1 here on Minnesota Public Radio get a reminder over the noon hour. Today. 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