Thank you Gratis, six minutes now past 11. Good morning, and welcome to mid-day on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary. I can glad you could join us. Well, after years and years of debate, it's Now official Minnesota school students will near need to clear two hurdles before they can receive their High School school diploma State Board of Education gave final approval yesterday to the profile of learning approach which will require students in the class of 2002 demonstrate. They can actually apply the knowledge they've acquired in several different learning areas. This profile is over and above the Statewide basic skills test that are designed to measure whether students require the minimum skills are they'll meet taken together these new graduation standards at least theoretically Marcus significant change from the way schools of traditionally operated rather than simply requiring students to spend x amount of time taking X number of classes students now, we'll have to show that they've actually learned something. It's a big change. It's generated lots of debate in recent years and joy, Change the shower to discuss this Brave New World and take your questions is Kate traffic was assistant commissioner for teaching and learning at the State Department of Children families and learning also joining us. This hour will be state. Senator. Larry poggemoeller. The chair of the state Senate's K-12 education committee. And we also invite you to join our conversation this hour. If you have a question or comment about these new standards just what they are how they are actually going to work. Give us a call Twin City area number is 227-6002 276 thousand. I'll try the Twin Cities 1-800 +242-282-827-6000 or one 800-242-2828 were talking this hour about Minnesota's new graduation standards a traffic. Thanks for coming in today. I suspect Senator poggemoeller will be along shortly. But meanwhile you get the field all the questions debate essentially Over Now The discus. Can we have the new standards and this is it for all time? I would like to say that's correct. I am confident that the conversation will continue and I am equally confident that it's important that it do. So we in fact during this last legislative session. We determined that there would be an Advisory Group to this graduation standards implementation and that they could report to the legislature this coming session on so is it what we expected it to be is it happening the way we anticipated in our additional questions coming up that we need to be able to answer how should people interpret these new standards do they in and of themselves if students meet the standards of that will guarantee they're getting a good education or are they more a way to measure whether kids are getting a good education? On the one hand, what we're doing is we're asking schools and students to Target what they're doing toward. Competencies what they need to do kids need to know and be able to do to succeed. So we're asking that targeted instruction were also asking that the assessment occur and that's happening in two ways. There is the classroom assessment piece the the place where we can best assess whether kids can actually apply what it is that there that they're learning to real life situation. And then there is also a testing component there will be at testing against the high standards in the high school years as well people have a good grip now on these basic skills test that the students have to pass those tests to get to the get the diploma. Do they have two in one way or another pass this profile of learning should have you should that be thought of in that way or how does that work? Every student graduating in the year 2002 will have completed work satisfactory work in 24 of 48 possible standards that is required of the students for them to graduate. They must have successfully completed work in 24 standards. And those standards will be assessed in a variety of ways much of this is left to local control with an effort being made on the part of the states to maintain some consistency in terms of the level of difficulty and quality of student work across the state to be a pretty straightforward thing either. You take the test you the passenger you don't pass it this profile measurement seems a little more subjective a little a little squishy or measurement of a high standards because it's not determined at the state level. We don't have a state curriculum. We're complimenting the teacher made assessments of the student work. With the Statewide testing. So I think the two pieces together the one we'll reshare people who depend on the traditional measure the other will be sure to reassure the people who know that the performance aspect the applied learning the relevance to the days that follow that senior year in high school is really where the reform is. This is all turned out Lord knows we've had lots of debate about these graduation standards for some long while we now have both elements of the program in place as it turned out the way you wanted it to Well, we at least at the state level now have proceeded through the board of education. So for the implementation of the profile is really going to be the key and with additional money that we put in for staff development and activities at schools. We're optimistic, but I I think we're we're not there yet and we're optimistic that these high standards can be put in place and fundamentally alter the direction of Education Minnesota for the better. We're not there yet by that. You mean Bill take I think a full implementation would be perhaps two to three years from now and we will know then whether we've accomplished something of of major significance students need to pass meet these requirements in these new standards to get a diploma and that's coming up fairly soon here will the legislature stick to this program. If 4 years down the road. It turns out that a lot of students have not met the stand. I think the legislature will the only caveat would be that if the and I mean the slightly facetiously at the next education Governor there whoever the next one is going to be will be in education Governor wear a shirt of that because they all say they're going to be put at the next education governor. Makes a mistake we could undo all of this could work but we're optimistic. I think there's enough critical mass. Now among Educators that Minnesota's going to accomplish. What would equal a mistake in your mind coming in the office in January and saying that everything that's been done in the last decade was wrong and that we need to now do the next flavor of the month. That would be traumatic Mistake by the next Governor. We're talkin this hour about Minnesota's new graduation standards great opportunity to get your questions answered. I know there's been a lot of confusion about some of this material and there's a chance to ask the experts. Okay. Traffic is with us. She's so with the State Department of Children families of Learning Center. Larry Pulga Miller is joined as he's the chair of the state Senate's K-12 education committee again, if you'd like to join our conversation to 276 thousand is our Twin City area number to 276 thousand. I'll decide the Twin Cities 1 800 242-282-8227 6001 802-4228 to a place and then I'll ask your guests respond. First of all, you made a quotient remark when you suggested that the profile standard your squishy of the fact of the matter is the only objective standards that you can really compare from School District Two school district have school. The school will be the very minimum 8th grade standard. You really will not be able to do this in a object to wait for the profile. Also, I would say it's almost orwellian to suggest. It's not a state curriculum and includes and attempt to really control the type of curriculum the delivered and includes a lesson plans that has connected test. So when you poop prickly put in testing to measure how well supposedly able to be very subjective test, you definitely have a state curriculum and it finally let me suggest that the profile is Group projects which are notorious for the being very difficult to measure what individual students are actually achieving and I would suggest finally that includes where I called the three eyes include in efficiency because there's not enough emphasis on Direct instruction and there's not enough of a knowledge base Creek and I'm still at the inefficient and immeasurable and that these are very soft standard. You can't get up ejected comparison and it involves the final I because it's very culturally Orion growth of knowledge oriented evenly say it's knowledge applications. It allows a space for much more potential indoctrination. So I would point out that all three Republican candidates for Governor including the undoubted in Dorsey Norm. Coleman has said he would suspend the profile so I say let the debate continue. All right. Thank you for your comments Jim. Let's see. Let's work our way through these things a little bit that first of all, do you see down the road Kate some I guess for lack of a better term or objective. Measurement being brought to these to this profile of learning. So it's a it's a little a little more like the measurement of the basic skills test. You see something like that developing down the road there. There will be the complementary High School assessment. There is an assessment in the planning stages right now. We've got two teams coming in from all over the state to work on describing what that High School assessment will be like, so there is that compliment to the so-called squishy more performance-oriented assessment. It's a balance. It's a balancing act and the question of is this a curriculum or curricula and describes the materials? The content it describes much more prescriptively the testing that's done the instructional strategies that will be used. The only things the standard described as what students need to know and what they need to be able to do related to important Concepts and ideas. I'll probably we have had more debate and more criticism because we've left those decision up to the local districts. Then we would have had we imposed a state curriculum on the other hand. It seems very wise and the part of State leadership to allow the local districts to determine the educational needs in their community and address the standards accordingly cell Statewide curriculum was really avoided in the process of Designing these standards on group work to the point where the the smart kids the hard workers are going to do all the work and the other kids just going to Coast. The standards don't initiate a group work movement students have always over the past year has participated in some group assignments and some an individual assignments and assessments and I suspect that that will continue There is a need on the part of the higher ed. And on the part of the employer's to have students and merge who can work in groups. There aren't a lot of isolated top positions that students will enter into so that is definitely part of education but it has always been in and teachers will make the determinations. When should it be group. When should it be individual Center Pokemon gym points out that all of the Republican candidates for Governor would would do what you would say would be a mistake and that is to scrap this really suspended. Why why not? I'm not aware that that's true. I know that Ellen Quest Is against high standards, but I am not aware that the other Republican candidates are this is a republican Administration that's doing this now. This is a bipartisan effort. And so I would be stunned if Mary Coleman and lieutenant governor Benson wanted to back off and once again shy away from setting standards for education. So I am not sure the gym correct about that. Do you think of this in essence imposes a state curriculum on the school district of de facto at all? Not at all. The gym was very articulate in the end. If all of the things that he described we're going to happen because the profile denied I think I believe what he believed the problem. Is that everything he just described to the profile or what is just not true. It is not a curriculum. It does not mandates group work. It doesn't tell teachers what to teach all it says is however you teach We're going to measure whether children have learned whether they've learned a critically think we're that they learn to synthesize information. That's what we're going to find out and we know from a tremendous amount of research nationally both by business groups and by Educators that the types of skills and competencies that young people need can be taught can be men and those types of competencies are embedded in these profiles and those are things like working in groups ability to critically think ability entrepreneurial and ability to synthesize information and the words that people use for those are varying but we do know that the basic competencies are consistent across business groups and educators. We're talking to shower about Minnesota's new graduation standards yesterday of the State Board of Education, but it's gave its final approval to the profile of learning now. This is the second part of the new graduation standards. We have those basic skills test that you heard so much about the results were released a couple of weeks ago. This profile of learning now is on top of that. This should for be required to do more than just passed the basic skills test. I'll also be required to complete this profile of learning and a joining us this hour to explain a little bit more about how this new standard will work program is scheduled to take effect the profile this fall state. Senator, Larry poggemoeller & Tropicals with the State Department of Children families and learning give us a call. If you'd like to join our conversation to 276 thousand to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800. +24-228-282-2760 Call one 802-422-8280 files as it seems that everyone knows what's in them and I have never heard a real description of what the what the standards actually are. What are the standards? How high are they? What are they measured against and what is the what is the content of the standards by? I don't understand it taking to give us an idea. First of all of the areas that are that Student Source going to be measured on the standards themselves are organized into 10 learning areas and some of those those areas. I'll be very familiar almost sound like the departments in your high school and others are not is easily recognizable. The 10 learning areas are read view. Listen, that is And that the second is writing and speaking. So those two kind of collapse to say, this is our communication Arts. Then we've got Arts which includes literature as well as the performance and creation of of the other areas of the Arts mathematic applications inquiry and enquiry has one that may sound like so what department does that come out of and what inquiry represents is the opportunities for students to gather information for a purpose to do something with that information whether it's answer questions or solve a problem and then presented as evidence in support of the decision. They made it a problem that they've they've solved scientific applications people and cultures much of what we have called. Social studies are social sciences is in the people and cultures area. Decision-making resource management and World languages World Language is there are no required standards Under World languages, but schools are required to offer more language the standard for students to elect to take but what a standard actually is is it's a list it's a list of things kids need to know and be able to do if I fret example out there's a standard called shape space in measurements that happens to be required standard and it says that the student must demonstrate understanding of characteristics of geometric figures in both two and three dimensions including and then it list Reflections rotations translations a list of several things under their it also asked that students demonstrate understanding of measurement accuracy error and tolerance. Those are the nose under that one particular standard. Then there are some things the student must be able to do. Use spatial visualization to model geometric structures and solve problems. There are three other dues listed under that same standard. Here's where the difference is. You might look at a text book and see that almost all of this is listed in the table of contents. You might do that what the standard say is it's not enough to have it in the book and for me as a teacher to deliver it to my students. I must see a demonstration of understanding. An inability to apply all of the things on this list are all the all the standards created equal that is to say when it comes time for a child to get his diploma because her diploma would it matter if a boy they were doing real well on Reading Writing arithmetic and for the life of them just couldn't have is no longer have no artistic ability to speak out whatsoever. But I'll be alright the Arts standards wouldn't depend on you having artistic ability. It would depend on you being able to I wish I had the art one of the Arts standards with me, but the the brief description would be that you would be able to create or perform or interpret some form of the Arts and you would have lots of opportunities to learn what your role is and what your responsibilities are in doing that. Center of Colorado Susan wants to know to about just how to simplify what she was trying to get out. I think how hard these are. What what what are we? What are we expecting of kids here when the kids get out of school if they met all these standards and and a filled in all these blocks. Are they are we talkin quote world-class education then or what's the weather at what level are we were operating at 12 to its first? I think it's important k-prep should get our assistant commissioner should give a phone number where people can get our easy hand out of these standards. What would that phone number be at the department will get that before done cuz there's a couple handouts at the department has the outline of some of the points that Susan is asking and I think it's important to understand with regards to your question that These standards are Continuum to world-class standards because not all of these things are perfectly measurable your ability to perfectly measure whether someone is how the one of the one of the standards that was just mentioned interpreter evaluate variety of artworks different people will do that in different ways. And so it's not totally scientific how you measure that individual students will have a profile or a record showing them against those standards across these pin areas and every profile could look different and what we will want to wear. Sure. Is that a long that that across those 10 competencies every student has a minimum amount of Competency in those areas at least before they get their diploma, but there will be many students many students that are excelling in particular areas along here and will become in the top 10 or 15% worldwide in that competency area in the compass area people and cultures for example of the comments the area of scientific and applications, but not every student will be asked to have the same exact level of standard in every competency. That's the key. I think that that people are misunderstanding and that's why this is not correct ulam. It is a measurement of where you are. Against World standards, but part and parcel that will be an examination to make sure that you've got enough competency across these these areas so that you should you deserve a diploma and that minimum competency will be significantly higher than it has been in the past and that leads to the debate that took place last week that the assistant commissioner is involved in and whether the basic competency test were hard enough or not. So I don't I didn't mean that to be too much too long of an answer to Susan's to in your question, but I I think you need to frame this correctly. You can't look at these standards and say are these standards when I read them the toughest standards anywhere in the world are they world-class? The competency areas are the array of standards that you need to be world-class. But where you fall on those competencies will be different depending on your individual abilities and talents and afferent and efferent and afferent now, is there a way to explain this program in present this program that would be easier for people to understand. Do you think I'm thinking of the the responsible business owner who decides that he or she really wants to make sure that the that the student coming out of school that they take on board and Higher by golly. They want to make sure the potatoes learn something and puts out put out some effort and they want to have a good idea of what the what the students good at, but the student isn't so good at can they just look at this and and determine that because it seems like it's Pretty complicated and very hard to understand just let me give you a kind of a layperson's explanation of that first. They'll know that the child can read write and do arithmetic. That's the basic continent is No, Child of Minnesota will get a diploma. If they can't do those basic competencies of Reading Writing arithmetic. In addition. They will have a profile or a record of what kind of accomplishment this student has done over and above those basic minimums in these 10 areas of Competency. They'll be a lot of information easily understood. by people in the real world That's the way I see it. You think everybody will be able to understand Kate. I know everyone will be able to understand it. I'm not quite sure what lengths we went to to cause this thing to become so mysterious about what it really represents is as I read with that shaped space in measurement. It represents 48 of those from which students will select 24, you know it if you imagine a state that simultaneously raises the level of achievement of students make sure that there's a strong connection between what's happening k through 12 and what students need afterwards and includes all of our public school children. It's almost in motivation enough right there to make an effort to understand that we have organized 48 standards for high school students under 10 learning areas and those 10 learning areas describe. What we in Minnesota have decided is a comprehensive education. That all of our students should have the opportunity to achieve. It makes education predictable Statewide regardless of where you go to school. Nothing in here that I don't think people are already thought was going on in her educational system. All this does is organized in a way where somebody can actually check out and hold accountable the delivery system as to whether these things are really taking place or not. And that's where the confusion I think is coming in there. There's not some new educational theory that's being interjected into Minnesota here. What's happening is we're trying to put down with some rigor. What is it that everybody's kind of expected out of the system. Let's write it down. Let's get a commonality and now it's hold the delivery system and the students accountable for those kinds of results. That's really all that's going on here and it's it was fascinating about the whole debate as you as you work through. It is the Simplicity of what's being asked here and I think once the average citizen and parents start to see what's really going on. They're going to go my gosh. You mean I'm actually going to find out if my kid was getting educated and I and I think it's going to be that simple. Once this gets implemented correctly about Minnesota's new graduation standards. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call to 276 thousand is our Twin City area number to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828 or guess this arcade traffic assistant commissioner for teaching and learning at the State Department of Children families and learning States under Larry pull. The Miller is with us. He is the head of the state Senate's K-12 education committee will get some more callers in just a moment step back in time and talents follow Mozart's footsteps down a narrow Street or listen to a live Opera in the historic opera house is a Vienna Prague and Budapest is all part of Minnesota public radio's 10-day European tour beginning October 21st, the package includes airfare lodging meals and a guided tour through historic eastern Europe make your reservations today for the NPR European tour. Call one 800-228-7123. By the way, we hope you'll be able to join us over the noon hour today second hour of our midday program. It's off to the National Press Club for a live broadcast our speaker this noon Philip night. He is the head of the Nike Corporation the folks who bring you those $100 sneakers and we'll be talking about business the big business of sports multimillion-dollar endorsement programs. Of course Nike has come under lots of criticism for its labor policies and we expect to be talking about that as well. Philip Knight speaking at the national Press Club this noon here on midday programming on NPR is supported by Kare 11 News the recipient of the Edward R Murrow award for overall excellence in television. Weather Service says, there's a good chance for showers and thunder showers across most of the state this afternoon highs today low sixties in the North Upper 70s in the Southeast. There is a chance for some severe. Basically east of a line from Albert Lea over to Osceola that would include Owatonna Red Wing Rice Lake Menomonie auclair. So specially if you live in those areas keep track of the weather this afternoon Twin Cities 40% chance for a shower or thundershower this afternoon with a high temperature in the low-to-mid 70s right now. We have a partly cloudy sky and 68° we're talking this out more about the Minnesota's new graduation standards. And again, if you'd like to join our conversation to 276 thousand or one 800-242-2828 carry your question, please hi. I'm a parent that recently got involved in a steering committee that will actually work on implementing these profiles and these standards and I am really encouraged the more I delve into these and find out about them. I would be so disappointed if it's Republican candidates just scrap it without giving it a couple of years to Right, if I see it as a new system always meet some resistance when there is a great deal of change and paperwork, but for the kids benefit this this just looks incredible. For example, if if a student has reached their junior high year in their junior year in high school and can't pass these standards. They are really placed on some special programs or given special emphasis so that they can actually keep trying to Patxi's until their senior year. It's these would be students who just kind of fall through the cracks. Otherwise you're happy with the profile of learning element as well. I getting more and more each month. I see all of these is very positive things to do. High in the educational system definitely your call. Thank you. Norma is on the line from St.Paul glad place of a 7th grader and we have been getting some of the graduation standard packets. I have come home with our son to work to be worked on and I have to say that quite frankly. I'm at the level of Competency that these packets are requiring. I also want to say that it's just a qualified my statement that my husband's a university professor and I'm a research scientist. So we are not parents who have low expectations for our children or or or have she's very little ourselves. That's not at all the case. But when I look at this packet and supervising my son is he fulfilled the requirements and turn in the assignment? That's not it kept going through my head was my son is very bright and has a lot of support and he's had a lot of really fine teachers. Vinny and his wife but what about I mean, what about the majority of the children? I really worry if we're not going to meet with some of the marginal students. It quite frankly are just going to become frustrated with the educational system. And when they become 16 years older going to drop out of school now, I did hear the previous caller say that that's one of the advantages of this system is that we're catching the students that are not going to be able to pass the standards and we're going to have programs that are going to intervene and assisting students but quite frankly it needs to be done a lot earlier and having been involved with my daughter's don't elementary school education. It's very difficult to get a child to qualify for special education when they're having difficulty learning to read learning to write doing mathematics Concepts in elementary school. The funding is just not there from the states. So earlier that we all know the earlier the intervention the greater the chance of success of correcting a learning difficulty. New program I think has a lot of potential graduation standards are a great concept, but I just worry about what we're going to do in these transfer years of these students who haven't had the elementary school special education or educational support and all the sudden they're being hit with these quite frankly having seen the standards that they're preparing them for their difficult and we are expecting too much from some of the students who haven't had the benefit of of this new approach right along from the very beginning but I appreciate the opportunity to talk a little bit about children students in their response to these standards. First of all, it's the intention of this whole Standards Initiative that there be low expectations of no students. The idea here is that we will maintain appropriate expectations of all students. There are Preparatory standards and those standards have gradually been phased in over the last 2 years and will be fully implemented by all districts this fall. So beginning with kindergarten students will be doing the Preparatory work for the standards the level of difficulty interesting Lee complemented by the relevance of the work and the active involvement of the students and their learning. It's doable students are teachers are being remarkably surprised by the level of performance of the students the kinds of work that students are doing their commenting things like in 19 years. This is the first year of my students have worked harder than I have that anyone that believes that effort means success or at least increases its likelihood has to believe that challenging material is working and will continue to work as we watch these standards phased-in. But you know, there are a lot of kids who can't even pass or haven't you had passed the basic skills test and they're going to be apparently some of them will have a devil of a time even doing that much for whatever reason. By the time they graduate from high school doesn't that call her here have a good point that so many of those kids faced even now with this higher standard yet. They're supposed to be meeting and I just throw their hands up and walk away from it all. Why don't I I represent Minneapolis. And so I'm sympathetic to some of the points Norman has made. But I believe we do not do a service to any young person. By having no expectations for them. And we know that we can teach people to read and write and do arithmetic and the fact that we have as many children as we have in the 8th grade who cannot do that is not an indictment of the children to indictment of our delivery system and our community for not getting it done for those children kids come to school active Learners. They want to learn and so I think There will be some transition issues here where there are some students who are getting caught from a system with no accountability to one with accountability and we'll have to be as helpful as we can. But we do not want to give any of those children diplomas if they can't do basic competencies, but in a very quick fashion, we need to get every child up to the higher competencies we can do it. It is doable. The research is overwhelming on this and I would just ask Norman. I don't mean this with your confrontational question. But if she is truly concerned about the student who is not as talented or is as good as soon as her child, I believe her expectations should be that that student should try to excel should have high expectations. Her expectations should not be that that kid just isn't good enough. Because if it's my child. I want my child to go out into the real world with his best chance is to succeed both socially and economically is the next child as normal child and I believe the way to get that done is to have extremely high expectations for every child. Let me ask you another question here before I get back the callers. Are we expecting way too much out of our out of our children sending them home with hours and hours of homework when the kids want to be out playing have a good time interesting Lee students do have a good time learning when the activities are propria to who they are what their interests and capacities are and what is important to them overtime the engagement that that teachers are witnessing who have implemented these high standards is much higher. We've had won district report the return of 13 students to school and their retention after having dropped out because of the nature of the learning you have to imagine that while we're saying we're not turning the page and it's a whole new educational system. We're asking the teachers know their content as we always have no their students. Some are really good at that tens and some have focused more on their content and know enough about the learning theory that they connect the to the content and the student in a way that it makes sense to that student that really changes the learning environment as far as the volumes of work much of what success is completed during the school day back to the phone store that your question Place into serving the high technology stereos of Wall Street and and make everyone babysit computers. I don't think we can afford to put our whole future in electronic glitches and the speed and the one not Everyone likes math or is good at it to get good at anything takes practice. That's very much neglected in the the current. Dysfunctional workplace. Why do you why do you say that these standards are too focused on math and information technology in the like what leads you to those people there has been no Galloping Evolution to fit the ways of academic thinking that they sometimes go around in circles. And you know what we have over glorified science technology everything to the neglect of valuing the wonderful thing. That is a human being Norma. You are going to love the profile of learning once you don't know we need to get you a copy of it because what you just described is what the opportunity that the profile is going to help us overcome where our current delivery system only to stomach that this is a pretty broad generalization cuz not all teachers. Call system. It does put a premium on cognitive Math and Science. Those are the best student supposedly but with the profile does now make things like art and inquiry and people and cultures and over and over again in the The Fortune 100 and other places thinking isn't allowed medical difference in a and perhaps not a good understanding of what the total approach this year. But how can this program succeed when they're so much confusion about this or is its confusion all going to go away. Dorothy sounds like a perfectly well educated interested person and and you say she's she's got it all wrong, but she has wrong answer interpretation of what's going on. But that's the point. I mean right about what she wants education right, but it's so confusing that people don't know what they're talking about what we have we have nine hundred thousand students roughly in the state 50 60,000 teachers. Young couple million parents and then another 2 3 million citizens. And anytime you do this kind of massive system change, it's not as if everybody's going to totally understand all the pieces at once but I think what what I am confident of is that as people become more and more aware of the direction. We're on they are going to understand again that Minnesota is out on that out in the lead again and will justly deserve if we do this correctly. We will justly deserve our reputation as a leader in education. This will pass the governor's Barbershop cast simple understanding is emerging now that it's a rule, you know, this is an important question. Where are people going to get the accurate information? Well now that it's rule that the school districts are making us powerful commitment to making sure that their communities are aware of what's going on. I've I've heard of districts who have every 30 minutes they have a rotation during any of their conference times event times where people can slip in and hear about the standards and ask their question sending information home talking about them during student council conferences meeting with their Chambers of Commerce in and with the other organizations and businesses and their communities the confidence in the district is growing exponentially now that they can say it's not going to change. It's pretty hard to teach people about something that they felt was maybe going to be changing in addition to that directly from the department at least at least 15,000 teachers have had a minimum three days of training plus a follow-up after they've delivered one of these standards in a classroom when we have hundreds of of teachers Statewide who are providing leadership. So, you know for the for this caller and for others who may need accurate information including gubernatorial can It's actually the yes, there is a number that they can call and that is 612-296-1447. We also have the website. Hopefully normal won't be offended that we're going to go website for children. State. MN that us and they can get the full pallet of information on Grant standards that way phone number. 1447 s children. State. MN. Us you some in general the songs pretty good on four standards going up and I used to be a teacher and a science teacher and my question is I had a couple students with a small world school that I mean there was just no way on this Earth that they would come up to even the standards that you examples you gave they were that they had learning disabilities and there's just absolutely no way and I'm wondering what on Earth you're going to do with those 1 and 1,000 students or the students that experience extreme test anxiety or ones that need to have an oral test Etc in what are you going to do with those kids that they Never graduating. That's Tuff Luck. That's my question. I think one of the advantages of the performance assessment part of this the assessment of the high standards is it can represent testing students can show demonstrate what they know in discussions presentations projects any range of ways that a student can show what he or she knows and is able to do and I agree that we have advantaged students who do well on tests in our system. And now it's time to see that there are more ways to know whether or not kids have the competencies that we expect of them and that they need to have my assistant commissioner. The advocacy groups for special ed children were adamant were adamant that every child be included in the testing. And the door mechanisms available for students who because of their disability will not be able to accomplish a competency. There will be mechanisms for allowing that child to proceed other cops the areas and it'll be recorded on their on their on their profile. So those children not be disadvantaged with the advocacy groups were very concerned about was that their children to be held to different standards than other children and they didn't want to be left behind and I think one of the crucial things for Minnesota to understand that is at every students can be part of this with accommodations for students who because of disabilities are unable to do some things but those will be outliers those that will not be the expectation expectation will be that every child can accomplish these, sees we are unfortunately just about out of time here. Let me get one more call Iran, John a quick question, please. The parental attitudes that you're so confused about I'm concerned that I was a child in the seven days in school and was passed along regardless of what I learned now. I don't see that. This is quite a change teachers attitude that can teachers are not being held responsible all along to this process for their part in the fact that these standards were never met in the beginning, you know, when a child can be passed without without fulfilling the expectations of the class, you know, that is not the child's fault. That is the teacher's fault and this is real nice to come up with this sophisticated system in you know, all the smoke and mirrors but let's talk about the t-shirts. They are responsible. All right where I just about out of time, but there is there a provision in this program to make sure that the teachers are actually holding kids to these high standards not just signing off. Yes, sir. Is there there will be an accountability there. In fact are informal panels already in existence where I regionally teachers are looking at the products of each other schools and each other students to maintain the level the Integrity of this whole process. This is one this is one more part of that whole accountability picture part of it is the basic standard part of which is the Statewide testing and then this as well the standards the high standards in the performance test assessments that accompany those as well as the high school testing. Unfortunately, we are out of time, but Lord knows we could be here a long time lots of callers still on the line with questions and maybe we'll do this program again soon. Thanks for coming in today. Appreciate it. Thanks for your attention to the ik traffic has been with us this our assistant commissioner for teaching and learning at the State Department of Children families and learning States under Larry poggemoeller is joined us Annapolis state senator in the chair of the state senate K12. Education committee talking to shower about Minnesota's new graduation standards and thanks to all of you been listening, especially those of you who called in with your questions. I'm Melinda pain, You've got sunscreen your towel Shades, maybe even a fruity drink, but the picture is not complete without a good book with Summer right around the corner. It's time for Talk of the nation's annual summer reading show a panel of Literati joins us with suggestions for keep reading material to enjoy at the water's edge summer books + new research on raising boys all coming up on the next Talk of the Nation from NPR news. Dawgnation begins at one year on Minnesota Public Radio over the noon hour today. It's off to the National Press Club for a speech by Nike's CEO of Philip Knight right now. It's time for The Writer's Almanac.