Good afternoon, and welcome back to mid-day on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary acting glad you could join us Minnesota school students are doing better on the basic skills test so that they're going to need to pass before they can graduate high school cutting the test results released yesterday 68% 68% of Minnesota students who took the test this year pass the reading test that's up 9% each points over last year 71% pass the math test and that's up one point over last year. He's basic skills test have received course an immense amount of attention both from Educators and from politicians there at the heart of the effort to make sure Minnesota school students are learning what they need to know. So today on. Midday. We're going to take a closer. Look at this year's scores and what to make of those scores joining us here in the studio is Kate Trebek. She is the assistant Commissioner of teaching and learning with the State Department of Children families and learning also with us is David Heise did the director of research evaluation and assessment for the Minneapolis School.And Becky Kelso is here as well represented Kelso is the chair of the Minnesota house K-12 education committee. And of course we invite you to give us a call as well. If you got a question or comment about these basic skills test what they mean number to call in the Twin Cities is 2 to 76,000 to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1 800 to +422-828-227-6004. 1 802-4228 to a folks ice coming in today.Who took the chance this year and I was this just 8th graders are the people who flunked or just failed to pass the previous years that have been reported today that have been those on 8th graders only and all of the 8th grader. Statewide took the test for the first time this year many more is greater than the previous years when this is our third year administering the test. And that's one of the 8th grade in terms of the reporting but 9th and 10th graders did have opportunities to retake the test this year if they were unable to pass at the first round of the students exempt from taking the channels very few exemptions to the test and it's limited to kids who are quite literally incapable of taking the test. It is a very inclusive test from the Department's Viewpoint. Good news overall.Clearly this is the direction. We had hoped to see the statistics moving and we've seen it a Statewide Improvement and with particular interest in what happened in Minneapolis. David heistad in Minneapolis test scores were up but still much lower than the Statewide average overall. Would you say that's a good good news or bad news? I think it's a little of both it we still have major challenges with our students at risk and the passing rate is still much lower than we would like to see it. But we have been looking at the growth from last year and finding that the growth in the percentage of students passing. This test was far greater than we would have projected with the information that we know about the students from their previous test course, I would have never projected this kind of an increase. We went from 33% of the students passing the written test last year to 41% and from 36 to 41% in math. And that's a much bigger Jump Then you would anticipate and it must be due to instructional. Focus and Leadership and all those factors that we can control because a demographics of the students coming into the school district new would indicate that the scores to Ashley would go down a little bit and then instead they went up the n-double-acp was fairly harsh and it's criticism of test scores indicating that they are you folks are simply pleased as punch to give kids an eighth grade education when their Suburban neighbors are getting a nice high school education. Is that a fair criticism? Well, they have been important point that I'm glad they're raising that that we aren't as far as we need to be with students of color and we do have a huge challenge with the students sick, man with many risk factors, especially a poverty and a home background situations home language that's different from English, but for example of the African Can students who took the test this year only 15% of the students had passed last year and 24% pass this year 24% is not an adequate passing. Right? But that's a 60% increase in the number of students who passed and getting that many more students to pass. The first time makes it a lot more likely that they'll be able to pass by the time they graduate and that's the big key can these students pass by the time they get through 12th grade and I did a little charge at yesterday for a press release that showed that of the kids that took the test in 1996 only 23% of those students have yet to pass. We had 13% of the students passed in 1997 an additional 14% passed this year. So the prognosis overall for the district is good. I think the majority of students will be able to pass this test by 12th grade, but why? Play Break It Out by racial ethnic group or buy free and reduced lunch or by home language background. We see that there's some huge gaps. And so we still have to adjust those factors representative. Are you happy with the with the test scores to come up. Everybody is happy to see Improvement. That's it. That's the bottom line. I think your listeners have to realize that test scores are always going to be fodder for every political agenda other words. If you're looking to say something that that I did was write. This is the proof If you're looking to say this isn't an acceptable level of failure that is always going to be the case and frankly. I think one of the positive things about the test scores is it does ignite that debate Statewide and with throughout the system and certainly throughout the legislative system as to what exactly is going on and what works and what doesn't work and what we need to do but And anytime you see significant Improvement. We should all feel positive and I do as the holder of the education purse strings. Do you see any correlation between the amount of money being spent by districts and the performance of the students in those districts on these tests money is not the the only answer and K-12 education. However, I also am convinced that lack of that is not an answer and other words. I have just having putting more money into the system doesn't always produce change, but I can tell you that if there isn't enough money to do the standard operation of a school district in other words if they are in a continually in a cutting mode that it's very very hard to change things and I I believe that we here in Minnesota have got to continue with our commitment at long-term commitment to finance K12 education in a responsible way is that the only difference it certainly isn't I think the fact that That the public was aware. I was made aware and certainly it was a jolt two years ago too many school districts certainly to David's District as far as the number of students who are not able to pass that test. I think it's for the most part turned out to be a positive thing. I mean, I think the changes as a result of that public pressure for the most part have been good. I think in the Minneapolis School District, there has been a level of what I would call a responsible rhetoric and other words really one of the downsides of it would be we have we have the parents the community members Thane this level of failure is unacceptable. They should be saying that at the same time you have the people within the system who are saying but are these children are coming to us with so many needs they are such a needy children that you have to understand that. It has turned into a not very pleasant debate as to is it the system's fall is at the family's fault. The fact of the matter is it's it's both and other would certainly the level of failure is unacceptable. But certainly these kids are coming with lots and lots of problems that can't all be solved during the class date how difficult was this test know there was a little controversy about that earlier this week. Is this a test, especially the reading test now is this a test that measures 11th grade skills as a sum of suggested does it measure what should be eighth grade reading skills since he's our 8th graders were taking this test or as was suggested earlier, you know in the past in some respects this measures like third or fourth grade reading skills. What does this test actually measure in terms of reading? An interesting question you could line people up and you're going to get a whole range of answers to that. The right answer is this standard was established by the teachers in this state alongside some technical experts and the teachers in the state who originally said, this is the specification for this test. This is the standards that the children will meet said that we should expect our 8th graders to read at the level of a general-interest newspaper article. They didn't say in general are 8th graders can read at the level of a newspaper. They said this is the standard we should work for and it's a fair standard. It's it's good. It's a good bass line for kids to know. Will you be able to succeed with your textbooks? It's given at the appropriate time in that. Gives teachers and parents a chance to ask the question. What do we need to do to be there? This is a graduation requirement, but it is not a 12th grader 11th grade. Test test basic literacy. got that to use me and answer really but Carlson's on the line. I wasn't using any bad language. Which I'm sorry apologize for that. We talked a little bit about the agenda. But I think the, Jenna that we all share is that you know, this whole initiative was about bitter achievement for all of our all of our students. I'm the each and every one of these students counts and that the obstacles and the challenges that alluded to hear are just that there are obstacles and their challenges and what Minneapolis has demonstrated one child at a time. Is that effort begets success. I'm great deal of effort went into getting these the students On Target and on track so that they could achieve and B and read a tan at a newspaper or textbook level. Okay, but again for the for the non educator if a student passes this test It indicates that there at the 8th grade level or the 4th grade level or the 11th grade level or what level are they at? If they pass this test CRP numbers, you can get fry numbers you get all kinds of numbers to put on a passage to say what the level of difficulty is. The standard is that children will read and understand a general-interest article in newspaper an article and an adolescent magazine and be able to successfully and read and understand textbooks. That's the standard. That's the level that you should be concerned that your children can read at so that they can continue to succeed academically last quick question here before we get to those collars parents when they see their these numbers now should they move their student to the schools where the kids are getting the high scores? Are and if not, why not if they want a good education for their child? I think one of the important things that we have to keep in mind is that a single test score doesn't show the value of the instruction or the school but the school brings to the test score and the correlations with income have been at a recent to publication of paper and a factor that you have to consider. What we like to do is look at growth over time and weather all students the students who come in very low or the students will come in very high are making progress. That's a much better indicator of the efficiency of the teaching and the book for a child for a parent though. They really don't want to wait for Progress to be made they want their kids to get educated today media. What will you find in Minneapolis as we've got schools with them very high-scoring students. But if you just look at their average test score, you might Miss the fact that some of those schools might be sitting on their Laurels and Ashley not accelerating growth for all students that need the the way they need to and where you might find a school. There's one in Annapolis, but someone when we analyzed our younger students test course that showed some of the best growth and if you just look at the average test score, you might say that but soon as a terrible school, but in fact, they're showing some of the best broth and so you have to be careful with those average test scores ranked, Oregon and saying automatically the school with the top test score is the best school. It's good that you're calling attention to parents because there are some things that parents should do first when you receive the test score if it's disappointing. Is it a surprise to you a second? Ask as a child was this your best effort? Tell me a little bit about that day third when your school invites you to come in and talk about your child's score on the Houston and doing some planning to improve attend those meetings and and be prepared with some questions and some ideas and some possibilities and and intend to enter into a partnership when students see that schools and parents are united in in the effort to educate them. They're much more likely to climb on board but it does require participation and encouragement on the part of the families as well and immediately asked was this your best effort if it was and you aren't aren't making the mark and aren't on track then let's find out what we need to do to get you there. We're talkin to sour about the basic skills test scores that were released yesterday all the 8th graders across Minnesota took these reading and math test. The scores are out to everybody is a Twitter about the results and then we thought this would be a great opportunity today to find out a little bit more about what those results actually mean. What does crate replicate traffic who is with the Department of Children families in learning? She's assistant commissioner teaching and learning Becky Kelso is with us state representative and chair of the Minnesota house K-12 education committee David high-status hair director of research evaluation and assessment for the Minneapolis School District. If you have a question, give us a call to 276 thousand in the Twin Cities outside the Twin Cities one. 802-422-8284 Scholars from Hopkins Joe. Go ahead. Please comment. And then I question my comment is kind of a Galatians in a to your guests for picking up the ball on this issue and doing what's necessary to improve education. Our kids are receiving and they take the question that I have is relates to administrators and teachers. How are School administrators going to use these test results to help teachers better serve the students educational needs and I'll hang up and listen on in Minneapolis. We take all of the test scores and we break them out individually by school and we show the growth from last year to this year. We show the strengths and weaknesses so we can identify areas of mathematics that could be a strength in areas that need Focus. You can use the information that individual student level four individual planning, but also for a grade level a grade level might need to concentrate more on interpretive comprehension and not so much on vocabulary how we also do it at the school level and the school level teams plan every year for adjusting their programs based on the information they get from the test course and also a lot of other critical information about the climate in the school and safety at 2. Represent of Kelso given how how everybody has responded to these tests in the test scores in the rest you wish that this has been done several years ago. The imposition of the Statewide test. Sometimes. I think we said in said here and talk like a kids have never gotten taken a test before we started doing this two years ago. Obviously tests have been used for Diagnostic purposes, which I think is a question that the caller was asking in other words. How is the system going to take these test scores and apply that teach child and help them improve. We all took tests when we were kids and other words. We've been giving test the kids since the beginning of time. I think what has changed here though, is that what we have in the last two years move towards is that there will be a test that is a requirement for graduation. It's not just a diagnostic test. It is a it is a floor. It's a standard that no child will graduate from high school. In the state of Minnesota with out the basic skills, and these are very basic to live a productive life. That's something that's new. The other thing that's new is using these test scores as a barometer of at 2 to judge our schools in this state and certainly the public reaction over the the past two years has been dramatic and I think that has produced the changes that we are seeing and and for the most part they're positive they certainly can be used in a negative way on one is on the levels is that the test is Tesseract it certainly hope is is Success continues that we won't be afraid to Mamie, you know, keep up the levels a little bit so that we don't sit at a constant as moving forward to I think it's a good idea that the students are now being held accountable is from the graduation to have a concern as to how are teachers going to be held accountable will incomes Attached to this they're going to be performance evaluations for the teachers. Don't don't get the slip along in the same mode and three to the private school students take these tests. And how did they do against the public school students? Okay, let's see. The first of all is far as the creeping up on the level of difficulty of the this initial process actually went through a great deal of scrutiny while the tests are the standards were designed by Minnesota teachers to meet Minnesota standards. And every item was approved of by Minnesota teachers this whole a Statewide testing and this went through legal scrutiny rulemaking scrutiny, obviously from the educational communities from the community-at-large and then had a lot of technical scrutiny. So as we we watch our students achievement approve, yes will want to raise the bar as appropriate right now. We will be very happy to have all of our 8th graders successfully reading in Computing solving simple math problems in a way that'll guarantee them access to a strong acid. Amex for the remaining a career high school career and thereafter and I might have to be honest with you. I didn't look at that data. We aren't making much of a comparison right now. We aren't quite sure which students were selected for the testing and you know, a lot of the other factors. It's kind of tough to compare. I do know that last year and that's certainly what was reported this morning shows that they many of the private schools did very well with the basic literacy test very well any likelihood that the teachers will be either rewarded or punished based on the scores of their students. I think that teachers their reward is a student achievement and I think it's to say that it is anything else is probably would be less than truthful will teachers be paid more or paid less if students achieve or if they don't achieve at this point in time in Minnesota, there is no correlation there. I think that anyone who chooses to go into teaching goes into it not to get rich and that the amount of money that they make was not the impetus to get into that profession and I don't know what teacher that doesn't feel better and enjoy their job more when they see student achievement. I it's it's a given I think the public the very the very cynical idea that the teachers don't care about student achievement. I'd I could just don't observe that anywhere Sandra Peterson who is the president of Minnesota Federation of teachers joins us. No, good afternoon. Pay should be in any way tied to these test score results. Well at this point we've we've looked at the in our contract had a variety of methods of dealing with with exemplary work more for a school. However, then for an individual and I think you have some contracts around the state that look at a different methods of compensation alternative methods of compensation for skills and responsibilities, but more importantly if you want to school to succeed you need to provide the support and our goal is to provide more. View more support for teachers who who are experiencing difficulties and also looking more at what does work in a school and having a team of practitioners who can take best practices and begin to work with schools or individuals who are looking for new ways of helping kids succeed because to keep moving ahead with the test scores is a big job, and it's a big job for everyone and if you're going to Operating the team the whole school has the whole school with movement and and they're going to have to look together at what will work and the idea of reward. I think it's because they did very well by Becky Kelso that the reward of achievement. This is the best one that the teachers can have people can share the best information so that the teachers won't be able to find out well this works real. Well this isn't working so well and is that kind of sharing going on now or do we need a different approach. I think you're a lot they're beginning to be networks all over there's a network of for instance of the teachers who have passed the national Board of Professional Teaching Standards. We're looking at Best Practices and sharing their ideas. We have seminars and conferences where we're sharing ideas. In fact our fall Conference in October between the two organizations. It's all focused on the grad standards and how new ideas and and How do we share ideas between districts in within district? And so there is a beginning to be a number of ways of dealing with with networking of new ideas and best practices. And I know that the Department of Children families and learning is also very interested in in assisting Us in this area is all my senses that are very pleased and the and the idea that that they have been successful at end in the hard work during this past year has to be very rewarding for all of them. And I I know that I was elated at what I saw if it's hard work those classrooms are difficult in many instances to work with and to make the kind of games that that we saw overall in the state yesterday was was very significant and very rewarding and I think that's also The positive points made by all of the media in terms of looking at and what happened was also very positive for app for everyone in the education field you before you run here. What are you hearing from teachers this will we we heard about this earlier this week was just test too hard for a lot of kids or is it just about right good measurement of what they should be knowing it was I think that you heard that earlier the teachers were involved in making these decisions and this is a standard that they would wish that all of their students would have teeth by 8th grade because they know that in order to be successful in as they move along they're going to have to be able to read and comprehend at this level to be able to to read a newspaper Etc. So standard for us if in 8th grade if students have not reached the standard to provide an intervention and more resources so that the by the time they get the 12th grade they will have the skills and they will Be able to graduate if we wait until the twelfth grade test. It's it's pretty late. This gives us four years to provide intervention summer school extra tutoring whatever is necessary to help those students to be able to graduate in 12th grade were talking this hour about the test scores that were released yesterday. The school test scores. They basically indicate to Galaxy 68% of the students pass the reading test that's up a fairly sharply over last year 9 percentage points 71% pass the math test that's up 1.0 for last year. I guess this hour David heistad director research evaluation and assessment for the Minneapolis School District Cape traffic is with us assistant Commissioner of teaching and learning with the State Department of Children families of learning Becky. Kelso is here state representative and chair of the middle. The house K-12 education committee. If you have a question or comment about these test results, give us a call to 276 thousand in the Twin Cities outside the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828 Stephanie. Go ahead place. Thank you for taking my call as Minneapolis resident. I'm very concerned about the low test scores in Minneapolis. I worked as an office manager on 1st mile Charter School in Minneapolis for about a year and in my experience. There was very very low. Until involvement. I'm particularly with this lawsuit and anger people being so angry over the scores of minority student. Is there some kind of educational effort underway to educate parents as to their responsibilities in the success of their children and I'll hang up and let you answer question in Minneapolis. We've said parent involvement standards as well as achievement standards and all of the schools are working on increasing parent involvement. There's a huge correlation between parent involvement and increased achievement and that's one of the key strategies that Carol Johnson is working on in the district at this time. I'll we do find that it is difficult for some parents to be at the school a lot because of transportation and other barriers, but the main thing that were trying to work on his teaching parents skills that they can reinforce. Horse what's going on in the classroom? Read to their children? Listen to the children. I'll make sure they finish their homework. We're doing a lot of assessment on homework this year to find out how much homework is being assigned and how much the parents know about that homework and I think the point is well-made parent involvement is a big factor that we as Educators can have an influence upon setting aside parental involvement for a moment. Is there any correlation between how kids do on these tasks and education in general and the income of the family its people say is it income it's more than income. But the example I use is that a child with two parents with phds and a child with one parent who's in jail. The odds are different the odds are different. Is that money? Is that role modeling is it values? Is it is it is it race I died. Frankly, I don't I don't think it is raised. I think if you were talking about to minority parents with phds and one Caucasian parents are who's in jail that those odds don't change that much. Certainly. There are people who beat the odds there are people who come from the most dismal a background to make live Stellar lives and they're the opposite people who come from every Advantage who end up in jail, but the odds are not the same and I think that that's what we deal with went in looking at Minneapolis vs Edina end and the way to deal with it. We can either say well those two children we can't ignore the eyes and say well we don't care about any of that stuff outside of the classroom. We're going to treat those children like they're exactly the same and that their problems are exactly the same and that obviously doesn't work. The Other Extreme is to say well one child's life is so dismal that that child can never learn I only did we can use it as a cop-out finding that fine line of 15 the fact that there are differences getting parents involved is the challenge that we all face and it's not an easy one. And I I do regret the fact that we are seeing so much finger-pointing which is and it really does go both ways. It's the parents paying for these writing schools are failed our kids and it's the school's obviously getting defensive and saying hey if the parents were a little more into this game things would turn out that finger pointing is not helpful. Any factor that has been identified clearly as being you know, if you have this in place the other real good the kids are going to do is it parental involvement? That's the that's a big one preschool what happens before a child even starts? Kindergarten is a very big factor when we did an analysis of the 8th grade test course. I helped with the study that San Marcos did at the Humphrey Institute. We found that the biggest factor that contributed to the 8th grade test scores was the test score when they first started school. And you have to be able to get adequate preparation for students to be ready to start reading and first grade and there are things that we can do to try to increase the involvement at home and also to provide quality preschool for for all students. Another factors attendance. We found a huge correlation between attendance and the results on the 8th grade test. If you have a tennis lesson 80% your chances of passing the basic standards was 14% 14% of the students who had that poor attendance pass at eight grade test, whereas 58% of those students that were there 95% or more in Minneapolis regard regardless of economic status attendance was a huge factor and that's one thing that we can have an influence on just keep the kids in school and actually showing up for class many of these other things could be overcome. I think I think clearly, you know the message and in hearing you say there are things that we can do. The whole purpose of Statewide testing is to call her attention to this to the fact that there are some students who aren't making the mark whether they have any any number of obstacles to learning. There are things that we can do and that's what educators are mobilizing to do. Right. Now. The Statewide testing had a couple of purposes one was to demonstrate that we as an educational Community are accountable to our parents in our communities and getting this information getting this accurate comfortable information has mobilized all kinds of people to have this conversation. What do we do with the kids who have these obstacles and clearly your message David is there are things we can do and we're finding those things and teachers are doing those things and it's making a significant difference to specific issue. The first issue has to do with these tests themselves. And by the way, I hi. I do feel I can give a measure of congratulations in that it took some doing to get it to this point because the original outcome-based education graduation rule didn't even include these basic Cason until the Carlson ministration came in these weren't really in the works. And I think this is largely what people have in mind for graduation rule is that the state should at least have this minimum competency to make sure that the kids reach this very minimal level now having said that I have one concern or something people should keep in mind you raise this issue earlier Gary was it exactly what grade level are these tests as your experts? I think well, no fake constructed test like this that are not nationally normed and not really normal at all. I can't really establish a definite grade level. So you have to realize that they have that kind of limitation and and another possible problem with that limitation. Is there more easily manipulated one way or the other so you're always going to have people claiming that there at one love. Or another when they're not nationally normed the other particular concern I have has to do with how rigorous these tests are and what it does to the curriculum is a hole and obviously there's some familiarity with testing format. So that students will just naturally get better at some of these tests and this minimum cam seems has really goes with a different curriculum. They truly rigorous academic curriculum and connected testing. It would go all the way through 12th grade starting to lose me hear. Okay taking these tests with the unfortunate difference from some of the Minneapolis-Saint Paul schools are pretty average kid and above-average kids taking his testes test mean nothing there only minimum competency. My concern is this is not actually raise standards overall. And that's a lot of parents should be concerned that a lot of more instruction time could be taken away from actually a more rigorous. I will be honest. I've already heard of some students who find this. Stamps are wasting their class. I mean, they're held back. I getting the other kids up to this. So I'm just saying this is no Kuro too much time being spent making sure or making an effort to get the kids to pass this test at the expensive of a more rigorous instruction basic standards preceded the high standards in terms of happening in schools. So resources have been rushed to the basic standards, I think most districts would agree with that. However, this fall we are now beginning to Target our efforts toward high standards. I'm in those high standards begin at the kindergarten level and follow through and in fact 3rd and 5th graders this spring experienced some testing against those high standards in both them in mathematics and reading and also written composition of 5th grade level. So two things are working in Partnership. It's not just we're not saying Minnesota standards are basic skills. We're saying all of Minnesota graduates will have Demonstrated basic literacy, we also have high standards against which all of the students will perform. As far as the the bar and where it's at. We have a very good information about what the national percentile is for the the bar pass passing the state test at 75% correct is above the national Norm. So you would expect that more than 60% of the nation would fail the eighth grade test the first time it's not just Minneapolis that has done a equating study any District That Was preparing to give their own alternative tests for this summer has done a study and found that it was between the 60th and 70th percentile for where the bar is. We think it's an excellent test. It's a big challenge to to get over that bar. If you start in first grade at the 15th percentile has the average African-American does to get them up to the 60th percentile in that. Of time is a very difficult task. So it's a pretty simple test pretty easy task, but it's more difficult than the average. National test is that when I'm here I here I have servation. Is that our test that we had and it has been it is a Minnesota test. It was put together by Minnesota people saying this is what we expect in this state, but my observation is that it's not terribly different from the California Iowa. I think if you were to compare it to sort of those National well-known test that it is certainly not lower than those tests and I think in many cases it is higher but I think the question we should be asking is take reading I think most of us when we were in eighth grade probably could read well enough to do what you need to do to again deliver productive life, whether you're going to be a welder or whether you're going to be a doctor most people buy eighth grade have a good level of reading ability. I think what we are looking at with this test is that question does this student have the basic skills to lead a productive life if every student in this state, Passing this eighth grade basic skills test. I would say something's wrong. I would expect it to be what would be a c for an eighth grader. Which means if you got a D or an F, you wish shouldn't pass up now and he was sort of bell curve you would have, you know, 20 30 40 per-cent who are not going to be that see student and if we were on a Statewide basis 90% across the state they're passing this task I'd say hey this doesn't show with anything. I think that test is is adequately difficult. I don't think it's too difficult. It's where the bar was set and that was Summit arbitrarily set. The 75% pass rate was set not by the expert technicians, but more politically I believe and so I think the problem is where the bar was set and how many questions you have to get right puts it at about the 60th to 70th percentile nashly, so I'm not so Isotol if your school demographics look like the nation, then you should have half of your students passing it. If you're still the school demographics look different from the nation either way. It's less poverty or more poverty or other factors that influence test course, then your distribution is going to reflect that. So in Minneapolis for us to have 40% passing this time is an exceptional feat given the distribution of our test scores. Where is it Edina is doing great too, but it might be expected based on their previous test course, they may start out in first grade at the 80th percentile would be the average for their students. Whereas our students of color Minneapolis start out at the 15th percentile. And so they've got a long way to go to get to that bar the first time but if we call it a 12th grade requirement and they have to pass it by 12th grade then I think it's quite reasonable. There's a difference though between a 12th grade requirements. It's a graduation requirement. It's an 8th grade test. We're not measuring our students against National Norms. We've set a standard of reading a newspaper general interest a fairly simple newspaper article. That's what measure my students against being up to National Norms does not allow us to fit well and competitively in a global Community. We need to exceed National Norms. We don't want to compete with South Dakota or any other state we want to fit well into a global community and that requires from the perspective of the people who did set set the standard for the teacher to set the standard reading a newspaper surviving very nicely in understanding their textbooks. So there's a difference between you know, saying let's let's make sure we're at about the national Norms or warfare. That's not fair fair is happy. The kids prepared for what comes next and being able to read a newspaper in and read a textbook and understand it and that's what kids need to be able to do. So there's a big difference there. It's more colors here and I'm just dumb as a post. So now I'm more confused again. Is this a harder test then then and we were asking more of our kids than the other states are or Do a norm-referenced one of those nationally-normed tests. Okay, that will predict about where a child can read what we do is we put what we expect them to read in front of them and say read it and show that you understand. It weeps at that level at a newspaper numbers-wise. What David is saying is that would require a higher score on a national test than the average. Can you discuss what's been done to address this issue in creating the Minnesota and I'll hang up and listen to the technical qualities of the tests have been scrutinized and they meet all of the standards necessary for high-stakes tests. They have been reviewed by University professors. I was involved it looking at any possible bias with test scores for me. Annapolis and I think from a technical point of view these tests are excellent and we have no problem with the difficulty of the test. It's just a question of whether you should expect all students to be above average in 8th grade by 12th grade. I think they all should be able to pass the test, but it's unreasonable to think that all students would be above-average. That's the Lake Wobegon syndrome hearing your question, please. Yes, I've heard a lot of references to the scores of students of color, but I haven't heard that the actual figures. Could you share those? You folks have that information yet actual figures for color when it when I data is I have the Minneapolis information. If you'd like to hear that we have we had 15% of African Americans pass the test last year this year 24% pass the test for Asian students 21% passed last year and 33% passed this year for Hispanic students 19% pasta the last year and 25% this year for American Indians 20% passed last year and 26% passed this year. And for white students 60% passed last year and 72% passed this year. So all racial ethnic groups make gains in Minneapolis Debro your question. Picking my call. I have a question with regards to children with learning disabilities. Specifically. We have a child that has learning disabilities and it happens to be an information-processing. So my question is how is how are children with learning disabilities factored in and how are they seem to have success in these kind of test? Thank you. I'll take my question off here at with with this testing Statewide. We are asking that all students participate who possibly can and that is an expectation that was really raised and we had here to based on requests not only from policymakers and Educators but also from the parents of kids who do have disabilities maintain expectations for our children. The students who are in special education programs will have and have been having an individualized education plan. That address this particular issue will the students participate? What what's a realistic expectation are there special modifications in the test environment that are required those kinds of things. And in fact, there are various formats of the tests available based on disability. Back to the phones John your question. I'd like to take this time just briefly to with praise and thanks e Minnesota school system for the weather for they've done for my children. I had two older children when is graduating next month on an out-of-state system and my oldest son was graduated several years ago. Both were went through three different school systems to Suburban Minnesota school systems in one out State. My son is attending. What is up sensibly. The heart is arguably the hardest challenge. Liberal arts college in the country with a full-ride scholarship where the top 20 under $2,000. And my daughter is graduating from an out-of-state school system with a better than 4.0 average because of our college pre-college tests or pre college classes and they got a great education in the school system here in Minnesota academic scholarship from the College of your choice. If we've been beating up on the schools too much representative council Minnesota, and and I think to a certain degree we've been overly complacent because of it. We have long been the best in the country with a certain profile student and I think sometimes we don't say that enough and by that profile, I mean students who are college-bound we have always been the best buy the best. I mean on a CTS SATs psat's we are always number one number two. Much lower than that and I think that that hit that the positive part of that is that we think I have worked and that the success stories that this gentleman just described with his family are nothing new and we've seen it for many years. I think the negative part and saying we are the best with a certain profile of student has allowed us to feel for too many years that we were doing everything right and that everything was going well when obviously it has not been for every student the student's who ultimately don't pass. This test is the legislature going to stick by this and deny those kids a diploma if they've been making a good effort into working hard and just not going to pass the test. Are you going to stick to that actually Gary the the test scores that I am holding my breath before I here until I hear are not the 8th grade students other was the not the students who are taking this a grade test for the first time. I am concerned about those 10th grade student that in two years if they still haven't passed this test, they will not receive their diploma if we have large numbers of Students in any given School District in this state who would have ordinarily graduated from high school who are not graduating. There's going to be a problem and my My worry is that will be the time when again lots of kids who it's the old if the sheet cakes been ordered in the diploma hasn't been signed that there's going to be hell to pay somewhere. That is the worry that I still have that and and this news is good. But until I hear that those kids who failed it in 8th grade failed the 9th grade and failed it in 10th. Grade are going to be able to still get up to this level of expectation. IL continue to worry about this whole process. The common Kate before we run here and I just wanted to mention we talked a little bit about you know that the beating up and you know, again that s have two purposes neither which is to condemn schools are districts a measure of accountability to parents and communities and information to drive Improvement. Those are the two purposes and I think the the governor the policymakers legislature are doing a great job and making sure we have the information we need and report it so that we can make the right decisions. This isn't about labeling kids are schools failures. It's about making sure I could succeed that's that's what it's about. And that's what we have in common here as far as what kids won't graduate the alternative courses to graduate students who cannot successfully read a newspaper really want to buckle down. Now, what do we have any a quick ideas on what's actually working in terms of getting kids up to speed summer school seemed to help I got summer school is a bit. Factor and we are hoping that we have a much better turnout last year. We only had 33% of the students who failed the basic standards test come to summer school this year. We'd like to see every student who didn't pass the test come to summer school and it will make a difference and after school tutoring programs are kind of thing as what we call Extended Learning time and it's not the time alone. It's what's done with that time. And I think Greg Nana and in Minneapolis would be an interesting person to have on the show to talk about just what lengths they went to to match the instruction and the teaching strategies with the students needs in the summer programs through some of our guests at this hour Kate traffic system Commissioner of teaching and learning with the State Department of Children families and learning Becky Kelso has joined us chair of the Minnesota house K-12 education committee. David heistad has been with us. He is the director of research evaluation and assessment for the Minneapolis School District like to thank all of you who been with us this our specially those of you who called in or tried to call in with your questions and comments. We appreciate the the participation and a reminder that programming on NPR news supported by Kare 11 News the recipient of the Edward R Murrow award for overall excellence in television now, we're going to be re broadcasting this program by the way at 9 tonight. So if you go I miss part of the program or would like to hear it again get a chance at 9. Sarah Meyer is the producer of our mid-day program associate producer is Michael call tangra. Rick have genske spinner engineer today and also help from Scott leavers. I'm Gary I can thanks for tuning in today. Hope you have a great weekend and we hope you'll be able to join us Monday 4 Midday. I'm learning Benson on the next All Things Considered why Minnesota is looking to bring an antitrust suit against Microsoft that story on the next All Things Considered weekdays at 3 on Minnesota Public Radio know FM 91.1 Listen to Minnesota Public Radio. We have a sunny Sky 75° at Cana W FM 91.1 Minneapolis. And st. Paul Sunday to partly sunny skies are forecast for the afternoon high temperature right about where it is 40% chance for showers in the Twin Cities then tonight and tomorrow morning. It's 1