6 minutes now past 12 Good afternoon, and welcome back to mid-day on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary Yankton. Well, it's been party time in Israel today Independence Day 50 years ago today according to the Israelite calendar Israel declared its independence establishing a Jewish state in the area then no one is Palestine Israel as we're out in the streets today celebrating and remembering this our midday. We're going to take a look back at that Declaration of Independence 50 years ago how it came to be and what's happened since joining us here in the studio are to University Minnesota political scientists who specialize in international relations Martin Sampson and no lloran will also be talking with Miriam houska who lives right outside Tel Aviv get a sense of what the Israelis have been doing today and will be opening the phone line. So you can join our conversation as well first over the report from Jerusalem here is national public radio's Linda gradstein Jubilee year. When free and land was returned to its original owners, the Jubilee was announced with a blast of a shofar a curved Ram's Horn in Jerusalem last night cloaked in turbine. Clad trumpeters sounded 50 Rams horns to kick off the festivities. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu the first Israeli Prime Minister born after the creation of the Jewish State read excerpts of the Declaration of Independence, Medina you who did in Medina. If you're not and then it was time to party hundreds of thousands of Israelis throng the streets of Jerusalem singing and dancing. They also celebrated with the unique Israeli traditions of spring Silly String on unsuspecting passersby and bopping friends on the head with plastic hammers the crowd quieted down only for the fireworks. Haim rozen Express the feeling of many Israelis as he celebrated in Jerusalem people of banging me on the head with a little toys and spring shaving cream to my face. It's it's the life. I mean one more could you want to miss while it's really celebrated Palestinians were left out both figuratively and literally Israel sealed off the West Bank and Gaza Strip until Saturday night allowing only medical emergency cases to enter Israel tens of thousands of Israeli police are on high alert during a possible terrorist attack Israeli police as Citizens to report suspicious objects fearing they could be bombed Palestinians call the creation of Israel on neck, but the catastrophe Palestinian leader Faisal Hussain. His father was killed during the battle for Jerusalem in 1948. Jose say sorry for seniors who are the victims of the victim during the festivities there have also been reminders of internal divisions and Israel most strongly between ultra-orthodox and non religious Jews dozens of ultra-orthodox used to try to tear Israeli Flags off, many of the ultra-orthodox believe there should not be a Jewish State until the Messiah comes the police intervene to stop the violence undergrad stain NPR news Jerusalem, what's later? This hour will be checking in with that is really a resident Miriam houska get her first-hand report on today's celebration in Israel right now. We've been joined by to University Minnesota political scientist. You've been following the Middle East for years Martin Sampson is with us. Also Professor adult Lauren whose parents were living in Palestine when Israel declared independence professor. Brandon was himself born in Israel and retains his Israeli citizenship. We also invite you to join our conversation. We're talking is really history today on this the 50th anniversary of the creation of the state of Israel. If you'd like to join our conversation, we invite you to give us a call 227-6002 276 thousand dollar call in from outside the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll-free and that number is 1 800 to +422-828-227-6000 in the Twin Cities or one 800-242-2828. Thanks for joining us today a professor or not. I should ask you I suppose this is a special day for you as an Israeli, the military ended up in Minnesota after going to graduate school at the University of Chicago and then taking the job at the University and that's how I ended up here, but I still maintain. Elite eyes and continue to follow as much as I can from here. Developments in his room before we get into weighty matters. I mean an obvious question here May 14th is the date according to our calendar when when this occurred. The Israelis are celebrating on April 30th. Why is that the reason is that he's really is as far as holidays are concerns or follow the Jewish calendar, which is a lunar calendar. And so you'll not smooth which is the Hebrew word for Independence Day is marte's en. Hey Bo the month the 5th day of the month of the year and it fluctuates a little bit. So relative to the regular calendar Faisal, that's the reason I miss your happens a bitterly relative to the 14th of May dates Martin Sampson set the stage for us here. Now, what was What was going on in Palestine, but when the Independence was declared who was living in the area. What was who owned it there controlled it? What what was what was happening at that point? It's a second world war ends with the British still are in control the British have a mandate over Palestine and transjordan from the early 1920s and it's already clear to the British that their effort to try to hold on and in so doing balance somehow the concerns of Arabs resident there in the scientist movement with not proving to be feasible the questions, I think in the air 1946 work with the British continue to hold on as they intended to will there be a partition of the area into a Jewish State and into an Arab state in 3rd Leawood juice and that be allowed in significant numbers to emigrate. From Europe where they had survived the second world war in to Palestine and the British were opposed to a partition. They were opposed to immigration of significant numbers of Jews who had survived the Holocaust in Europe coming into Palestine over series of events series of study groups commissions and so forth eventually Britain announces that it is turning the whole problem over to the United Nations in 1947. The United Nations sends a team to assess what should be done in the United Nations recommends a partition plant partition plan would have had Jerusalem is an international Zone and it would have had a Jewish State and an Arab State Jewish State demographic Lee would have been about fifty percent Jews 50% Arabs the herb State overwhelmingly 90% plus I would have been Arabs World Zionist organization, except the partition plan, even though they were on record saying that they opposed to partition in that the whole area Palestine should be coming to a state. Arab states are opposed to any notion of any any modern Jewish state region and they object to the partition plan. So the partition plan is not carry down War ensues and the results of the war essentially establish the boundaries that Israel has from 1949 until 1967. The War I think is also a catalyst for two kinds of movements of people significant numbers of Palestinians who move out significant number of Sephardic or middle eastern Jews who move in as a result of demonstrations by Arabs against Jewish quarters of cities like Alexandria and Baghdad and in Cairo and so forth. Why why did the Arabs turn down this partition? I mean here we are now 50 years later and there is talk of of a separate the Palestinian State there is the horses. Already exists and seems like we've kind of come full circle in a way. Why did the Arabs reject this plan initially? Well, I guess the scholten simple and so it was that the one in the whole pie and believe that they will be able to get it probably did not anticipate what we know to have been out the outcome and I think your lights are pointed out that it might have been a tragic perhaps a mistake on the part of the Palestinian of the album worlds would have rejected that's proficient plaid because in comparison to what the Palestinians maybe getting out of the currently stalled peace process that partial slice of Palestine that they were promised us part of the petition plan is much bigger. Now what obviously they were People living on this land and as as Jews were immigrating to what would become Israel. Does that the automatic matically mean that residents were being expelled Palestinians were being kicked off their land to make room for the immigrants is that what was going on or where is it was are plenty of land for all people or how did that work out? I think it's very complicated. What are the dimensions is rou lamp that have been formed by the same family for a long. Of time who under ottoman Arrangements. We're not technically the owners of the land in the mid-nineteenth century. The Ottomans change the rules so that these people can own the land that people are suspicious of government. They don't want to show up on tax rules. They would rather be anonymous so that their their sons are not vulnerable to conscription. Then what happens is a lot of this land that have been communally manage previously purchased by wealthy Urban Arabs who get title to the land and and essentially sign a piece of paper which villagers don't understand because there's a fair amount of effort beginning early in the century by of the Zionist movement to raise a lot of money to pay exorbitant prices in many cases to these Urban Arab landlords for rural land design. School pants principles included the notion of self-reliance. This was not a a moving to people who intended to come in and exploit the local labor. They were people who intended to come in and do the farming themselves. So on that level automatically you got a clash of a very different understandings of what's going on the world labor say we have been here, you know, since since our own memories memories of our family all this is our place on the other hand the people coming in today. I'll but we have a title. For which they had paid an exorbitant amount of money that just one of many dimensions are a number of Palestinian Arabs who inspector leaving in 1946 1947 their number of other people go out during the fighting with an expectation that they will return in a week or two after the Arab armies Are Victorious and of course discover, then that other not allowed to return and that the Arab armies are not going to be victorious certainly seems like the Seeds of much of the problem that problems that exist today in the Middle East originated in the after that First Palestinian movement from the area and then again became refugees and so on so forth were those people encouraged to stay by the the new Israeli government or the emerging irate Israeli government, or were they encouraged to leave and enforce back pressure? Delete I can. I have to share with you. My recollection of the story of that. I was told that my generation was still holding out of school textbooks and the general what you Michael's on his narrative about the events of 1948 4748. What's we know as the war of independence the Jewish side of the Palestinians as reported finally ours said I called astrophe. The Destroyer we were told is that basically a as my call about the Samsung just mentioned the honorable leadership Palestinian leadership called upon the Palestinian population to leave their Villages temporarily only to return soon following the Victorious armies. That is with no I did not Not come to pass more recently over the past decade or so a group of younger Israeli historians come to be known as the new historians have been studying that periods from him or perhaps are not detached objective. If you my perspective have been challenging that narrative that I was raised upon as a myth and when I say admit not I don't mean in the sense that it's completely fabricated. It is true and it is a part of the truth but not the whole truth and it's not that the Jewish side. Active Lena Surly encouraged Palestinians to leave for those that was a part of the story and at least certain parts of Palestine and things very than in various parts of the country, but certainly there was no active discourage man than the many ways than the story is not only one of the Palestinians escaping on their own or being encouraged by the liter to escape and return but today the story that emerge from this new history. Is it more balanced one that they escaped them yet. Also got pushed out best. I think example of recent years, which is a very detailed Village by Village depiction of what the explanation seems to have been of people leaving and it's an array of things from on the one side of being pushed out as an effort. Clear certain areas to on the other hand people deciding on their own simply to go through friendly military lines and and and find security on a temporary basis. Get out of the way of the fighting. I think it's worth noting that the evidence doesn't just rest on this new sort of generation of historians Higgins autobiography the Revolt refers to a massacre of Daria seen by Bagans Group, which resulted in the death of a couple of hundred Palestinian villagers and its own comment. There is that the horror stories that rippled through the Palestinian Community as a result of that we're worth. I forgot how many frigates it was of unconventional soldiers to the Israeli forces. And and and I think that he says it's certainly correct a the atrocity happened to be There was no reason for people to worry that if their town was overrun by Israeli forces that there could be all kinds of catastrophic and sewing today is the 50th anniversary of the creation of the state of Israel, and we thought it'd be a great opportunity today to learn a little bit more about how Israel came to be and what was happening before and what's happened since joining us. So this our pastor Martin Sampson from University Minnesota Professor hido Oren also from the University of Minnesota. Both are political scientists both specialize in international relations, and they've been following this a course for some long while Professor Orin himself and Israeli citizen. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call or Twin City area number is 227-6002 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800. 242-282-8227 6001 800-242-2828. Situation in the Middle East remains course one of our more intractable long-running International problems if you will and great opportunity to find out how all of this began. Why was it that it was decided that the Jews deserve their own state? How did that come about? We're looking I think the origins of Zionism as an organized political movement. Go to late 19th century Europe job. Now. If you try to be kind of a boiled brushstroke characterize the major movements that emerged out of nineteenth-century Europe, I think won a major social movement that held great sway on the European imagination was nationalism in nineteenth-century is a century of nationalism and Zionism was the great Visionary in the great organizer of Zionism as a political entity in as a political movement was a Theodor herzl, who was that subject a citizen of the austro-hungarian Empire, which was this sexually multi-ethnic come out. National Empire, which was a fairly common way of organizing politics in Europe in the past, but in the 19th late nights and early twentieth century was becoming increasingly anachronistic buffeted by nationalistic full size that are trying to break it down. And so I think Zionism the emergence of Zionism in Europe it that trigger it has to be seen against these kind of both your car and send European history of the rise of nationalist movements and the herzl was I think if I could read an interesting essay by Swae Lee Israeli political philosophies Loma Veterinary just the other day placing her to leave this intellectual contacts. That person was CenturyLink predicting. We know what time so correctly the demise of these non-national way of organizing Political groups and was worried about the ramifications of this in terms of anti-Semitism. And so I think and if the wise I was not in his was approved to come movement has to be placed in this context Rodger your question. Please have a question here about back in 1928. There were reform Jews and Orthodox to their way of looking at history back to Palestine. I would think that a lot of the year every form Jews would have been very skeptical about moving into a part of the world where they would be completely surrounded by enemies. I have heard rumors of that. They were thinking of trying to move into some place in Africa or some place in the world where there wasn't much of a population and I wonder if her One of the experts would put set me straight on it discussion about a Jewish state in a variety of locations. Whether a Jewish state would have been feasible in a location that is devoid of any of the symbols of judaic history or the identity of the people. It seems to me is a fair question by the 1940s know by the aftermath of the second world war with no, I thinking discussion any longer on the one hand on people in Europe did Jews would survive the Holocaust have very few options. The US was very reluctant to let people in Britain with more reluctant to let people in the US on the other hand favored sizable immigration of Jews who would survive the Holocaust in Europe to Palestine. So let's say somebody German background who was a reform Jew who would survive the Holocaust really did not have very many options that has to be Infected sinus in the 19th late nineteenth and early twentieth century is is in fact not very attractive to most eastern European juice that most people who decided the time had come to move came to the United States and in and regarded this experiment with Palestine is a far-fetched unpleasant kind of think. Our immigration laws changed in the 1920s that made it far more difficult for many people to get into this country the situation after the second world war reiterated basically that Dynamic so for a lot of people weather Palestine was the first choice or not within a relevant question, The US was the first nation to recognize the existence of Israel. Harry Truman apparently made that decision. Despite all the advice. He got from his top advisors George Marshall and and the rest of them how important was that in the Israel's ability to survive. I think it was important but not tremendously important or interesting late enough as it related to sides and major Russian now for the advice given to the president by people mainly of the state department to not swear. I can recognize that you said of Israel was that he just didn't believe that this fledgling entities going to survive so that they certainly were proven to be wrong. I think what we have to be careful about when we discuss u.s. Israeli relations, which certainly a present and in the recent past has been extremely tights is not to take the present in the recent past and project them into the past and its importance for the historical background to remember that info. In terms of home supplies in terms of the weapons that Maids he's Wales victory in that and it's war of independence possible one, very important major source of these weapons was Czechoslovakia, which was in fact at least acid Lee authorized by encouraged by the Soviet Union. So in the early days of the state, you couldn't necessarily forecast and predict the tightening a few assets would have relations that would occur really stunning in the mid-to-late 60s. In fact in the 1950s. Israel's major arms suppliers of major Western High Line was France up until just before the world the waltah 1967 interesting Lane off even at West Germany. Which did not have diplomatic relations with Israel until the mid-1960s was also an alarm supplier. Not the United States why it wasn't very clear that it could be dangerous for Israel to become dependent on one major supplier that it's real was far better off if it had multiple sources and and could not be there by be dictated to by buy buy some critically important Source. I need any dough is exactly right then that the French the British and self-worth. We're major suppliers and it's not until the late 1960s that that changes why are why was the u.s. So obviously, but certainly not all that supportive 53, I believe it was sodalis cut off all the eight. The foreign aid to Israel and Iran in 1956. There was the Suez campaign and we found ourselves on the other side of that. On the Israelis, why was that? We don't think that the u.s. Policy was unsupportive. The certainly Eisenhower was certainly very critical of the Suez Invasion. And that was a very Rocky moment and US Israeli relations, but Israel withdrew from the Sinai Peninsula, and and I think that it resolved the major issue there the earlier and earlier Endeavor was an arms embargo by the British the French in the Americans to try to prevent the supply of weapons to Arabs in Israel as an effort to try to nurture some kind of reconciliation in some kind of a piece that breaks down because the Soviets begin supplying weapons to Egypt and curiously did the US was the first to recognize Israel. But the Soviet recognition with was very close behind. So in 1948 Soviet and US policy was on the same page. The one of the most fascinating Parts about the history of Israel I think is the is the overtime of the repeated victories a military victories by this tiny little group of tiny little State always outnumbered. How how did that occur? Can you give us some dimension in 1948 war of independence any idea on the terms of the numbers as to how many Jews there were versus of the Arab armies May of 1948 when Ben Gurion declares Israel's independence the size of the Jewish population of Palestine than Israel was in the vicinity of 600 650,000. Just my way of comparison and thought that's indeed one rather stunning development today. There are about 5 million or just short of five million Jews in Israel, which is more than two-thirds for jewelry out of a total population of about just showed up six million. So about a million Israeli citizens on minority arbs. Out of these 600 650,000 at the time about the size of Minneapolis and st. Paul combined in terms of population of the in about 6,000 Jewish boys and also girls in fact not lose their lives in the war of independence. So where abouts lovely 1% of the Jewish population. That was a very very heavy talk by comparison. I think you could probably play some of the Zenith the heights of Israel's military power military Powers military success in 1967 when within 6 days write the IDF Israel Defense Forces defeat the armies of Egypt Syria and Jordan and then a few smaller contingents from other up States. Bicycle and I think the casualty taller the time was in the ballpark of 6 704 the whole wall. What are the dramatic things I think about the 50th anniversary of the founding of the state is that it's been about 25 years since Israel has been involved in the classic arab-israeli war by which I mean Israel against Egypt Syria, and so forth the last of those words with 1973 and time wouldn't one would not have necessarily predicted that that would be the duty of 25 year Hiatus but subsequent to that there has been no sort of full fledged engagement between Israel and the major states of the Arab world and what had been an arab-israeli issue in regard to questions of security. It seems to me slowly began to transform itself into more clearly an israeli-palestinian issue. Former Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres had some interesting things to say about that whole israeli-palestinian relationship in an interview with the BBC Perez. Are the 1994 a Nobel Peace Prize for helping put together the Oslo peace agreement, he told the BBC in an interview this week that the Israelis have made two big mistakes in their dealings with the Palestinians. Whining about the existence of the size of the existence of the Palestinians here and secondly about the way they will receive us. Innocently with thought they will receive us with open arms. And now I'm eating it will be a blessing and kind for them and for us we were on. Secondly, we thought that the Palestinians are small tiny. Minority Anderson pay too much attention to them was another mistake. no after connected you spoken in the past about your belief now that the Palestinians should have a state of their own envelope. Do you not fear as many as rabies do that? That state would be a threat to Israel with all to stay the truck may be louder. it said In order for his Alibi Mane Choice, we need a Palestinian State. Otherwise, it should become a binational state by national Trojan. So this is and then if some of the things that we cannot hundred percent of security without offering hundred percent of freedom, I think he's mistaken you spoke at the beginning of this conversation about morality and about Israel's need to think carefully in the future about the morality of that state. Is it legitimate then to say that you feel that Israel at the moment lacks moral legitimacy example that mistake we are clearly committed to the Bible. The Bible calls both for peace and social justice. So we cannot lose I'll temperament of a social justice inside the country when people say it is immoral for Israel to continue to control Palestinian populations in the West Bank and Gaza. You would say yesterday. Yes, I would say I went to a store because of that weighs. And are we all fall 2002 so we have no valid now. It's the way from Golden. I love you. Then other people so try to dominate as disability from his story. Why should we follow them and not follow our selves former Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres in an interview this week with the BBC as Israel continues to celebrate its 50th Anniversary 50 years ago Israel became a new independent nation joining us. Now from Israel is Miriam close to an Israeli citizen who lives just outside Tel Aviv for her brother lives here in the Twin Cities over the years. We've been talkin from time to time with Miriam about some major news developments in Israel. Thanks for joining us Miriam. You're welcome preciate it you know in the past. In the past we've talked with you. Usually when something bad has happened scud missile attacks or suicide bombings or the robin assassination. Good day today though for you I suppose. Very good day for me. Living a wherever they are two. Very good day. Tell me about the celebration. So you've been out and about I know. Yes, the celebrations. Well, you know every year Independence Day is celebrated the day after the day that we have for the memorial for our fallen soldiers. And so the day is always mixed a bit with a bit of of sadness and remembering the price that we've all paid for the 50 years of Israel say existence and it was big celebrations last night and most of the city's there were a concert and a different entertainment things going on fireworks family dinners people that got together there were special government or national activities in lighting of the torches on the on here till mountain in Jerusalem official open. And James and today is the day of the day of the week went to my family to see the slide by and buy it went from the northern border of Israel all the way down to the south on the Mediterranean. It was quite a sight. And it was just a good day to be together with everyone and then two way I hoped it did the future will be better. We have heard some reports that the that the Israelis were split little bit on how to celebrate this in terms of the ultra-orthodox Jews and moderates in the left-wing Jews and so on so forth. Is that true. Is that all or is that been overplayed in the media? I think it was partially overplayed know I think we have a lot to be proud of and I think we have a lot to be thankful for this day. Not everything is great. We have a lot of things we need to work on a lot of things. We need to improve it within our society and with our neighbor and I think it's important and I think most people realized that today with everything is today to it in today to celebrate and it's today to be together and could be proud of what we've accomplished and hope that the problems that we have it will work hard and be able to to to pull together and solve the internal as well as the external problems than in the future, you know, as well as anyone that there's been all this talk recently about the Palestinians unilaterally declaring their own state. I suppose in some what they're the same way Israel did a 1948. What are you hearing your neighbors? Think about that? Is that a good idea? Well, it's not quite the same way that Israel declared. It is well didn't really declare itself estate in 1948 Israel a&i November 29th, 1947. We got the support of the state of Israel from the United Nations within thirty three nations voting for the establishment of the state of Israel. So we didn't create it ourselves on our own unilaterally. I don't really know if people lame I think the overall feeling here is one handed people very much want peace here with our Arab neighbors and with the Palestinians. I think their disagreements about exactly how we can achieve it and I hope that within the next a month fit and we will be able to move forward and Achieve and a cheap two-piece whether it that means the creation of a Palestinian State I'm not I don't think that I'm in that kind of a position to say if it'll really come about if it won't or if it's a good thing. I think the most important thing is that there's a as long as they are Palestinians a stop and don't continue with terrorist activities against Israeli citizens. Then I think it will be much easier for the Israeli people to accept any kind of an NSAID Palestinian entity in next to us last question for you Miriam. Do you think the next 50 years or going to be as good or better than the past 50? Well good in bed or I'll relative it. They will certainly be different Israel is in a very different place than when it began on the ashes of the Holocaust and I think we've created a very beautiful modern mix western eastern culture and the only Democratic country here in the Middle East and I hope that we will be able to continue with our strong democracy and at the same time they bringing in juice from around the country that wants or needs to come in and I I think it is we I hope we will continue to be able to be humanistic and the Democratic and keep our advancement. And of course the most important thing is I think that we have peace and that we will be able to put our efforts in our energies into building our society and not In into a defensive end and things that unfortunately in the last 50 years we've needed. Thanks so much for joining us today. You're welcome. Take care now Miriam close good and Israeli citizen who lives just outside Tel Aviv about 15 miles. We have been talking with her over the years as we said usually when we've chatted with her in the past. It's been in connection with some fairly nasty development it today. We thought we check in with her on this 50th anniversary of the state of Israel. The celebrations have been under way through the day joining us here in the studio Professor Udo Lauren and Professor Martin Sampson, both of whom teach the University of Minnesota. They are political scientists specializing in international relations. They've stopped by today to a talk a little bit about this 50th Anniversary. We've got some callers on the line if you'd like to join them to 276 thousand or one 800-242-2828 bill. Go ahead please. Thank you. Farms in the 1967 conflict. Would you please comment about this do nuclear weapons exist in the Middle East now if they do exist or don't exist who was helping with nuclear technology in that part of the world. Thank you very much. Officially they do not but there is a very high likelihood that they do exist and specifically that Israel possesses some nuclear capability relatively a very small in comparison to the huge Arsenal's built up with the United States and the Soviet Union during the Cold War but not the last it's quite likely that is well. That's possessing nuclear capability official Israeli policy over the years has been to deny or remain ambivalent and ambiguous about the existence of this nuclear Arsenal Who provided the initial technology. I Think that's going back to the 1960s on we mentioned earlier the fact that it was France. We used to be as well as a major Western Becker and I'm suppliers. So I think the initial technology transfer that allow the facilitated the development of Israeli nuclear technology came from France Scott your question, please book the Arabs and Israeli military intelligence report, which is not released until 1979 which stated that 75% of the Palestinian switch left Palestine left under direct threat of military action by Israelis or because of drinking attraction by Israelis. This is from Israeli military sources. Does this make sense with your research experience? Benny Morris is study. It certainly Echoes with bacon has in his autobiography 75% 65% 85% I don't know how one closes in on that kind of precision. I would expect as well that this is a very large category that it's people who had simply a very general fear that the war might overtake them and sought safety to on the other hand people who are more directly pushed and end so that that statistic. It seems to be a woodwind compass in a large number of different kinds of situations. Is there any reason to believe that people who are for whatever reason who left the land at that time a 1948 that they would ever have any opportunity to reclaim it in any way or is that come and gone that opportunity? Palestinians, I think the hope is not entirely disappeared from the Palestinian Community. There are people who look toward the time when there is no longer in Israel and in which it will be possible for families to go back to areas that their ancestors did have to destroy the state of Israel to do that grease than that. It's pretty much resolved issue, That's from Israel's perspective. This is a no. No, this is not an issue to be negotiated Bargains for the return of the posting an hour. I'm so fly by 2:48. If in fact of the Palestinians a did set up their own State again, would that involve the same kind of Shifting of population seizing of land and Go on or could that be accommodated in a way where nobody would be hurt? Issue at the moment. I think this is really settlements vertically on the Westbank and I'm very pessimistic that you could have some kind of Palestinian state that would be acceptable to a significant proportion of Palestinians without the painful closing on the Israeli sign of a number of those settlements that I think would be very dicey and there certainly would be violence associated with that kind of a process one thing you hear that that is that is Israel has lost some of its common purpose and idealism from those early days is the early heady days of the late 1940s it is it you think that's accurate. Is it the same? Is there the same feeling about Israel today that there was then the collectivist Ethan Stiefel togetherness cohesiveness? That's all that's early United is where lives in the 50s 60s and I you might save in for the seventies and eighties. I think it is fair to say that it has declined that has been under mines in recent years and I think her to some extent at least it can be attributed to use smells much better security situation the peace process Harvest sluggish. However stock it may be at the present moment. I want to look at the bigger picture in terms of Israel's very existential security. The very threat to Israel's existence is estate. I think there's no comparison between the kind of existential anxiety that I would my Going up there as a kid and the situation today that just isn't similar threats to the very existence of the states. And I think that in part is responsible for the decline of the school. He Savannah saw his rallies are more individualistic today. You might save in a bit more head than sex know. Some people have a Nostalgia some people think it's very bad the others Evermore acceptance attitudes toward this development hear a lot about the secular Israelis in the religious. Aminos is the split so great there that there's any possibility the whole thing is going to fly a part or are these just people arguing with each other over your spider Parts? I remember a sociologist apply for University commenting that it is filled the israeli-palestinian problems with solvable. He didn't know how the intra Israeli problem of Killer orientation versus religious orientation be solved in his sense was it that was far more difficult in for more dangerous. And and you know, that's I think it's really grown. There is much more momentum. I think now in the country on the part of people whose concern is a judaic concerned with sensitive taking seriously the notion of of of living on the basis of religious law or doing other kinds of things that are part of a religious tradition, that's not exactly the kind of state to the Ben Gurion. For example, I had in mind it is a kind of state which if it defines itself on a judaic basis Compass has to live outside of the country. But of course the irony is that the direction this is taking at the moment just wanted to actually excluding reform and conservative Jews and that's that's become a much more powerful issue than it has been. Previously apparently a large part of the 50th Anniversary has involved old documentary series retracing the history of Israel and so on about which there's been considerable controversy, I guess in terms of some of the episodes in the documentary series lot of focus on what happened then and how is that likely to change the average Israelis perception of his or her country or will this come and go and and they'll just go about their business? I think that the debates among historians and intellectuals are closely linked to going to blow their political modes in the public at large and Border Protection processes. I think that it's not that nobody argued say 30 or 40 years ago that perhaps not a hundred percent of Justice was on our side that perhaps it was also Justice in the Palestinian position, but a to the extent that you argued that then you just were Beyond The Pale essentially of legitimate disc golf saw your marginalized today. It's it's still evokes a tremendous controversy in debate, but it does moved into the pages of a respectable Outlet like Outlets like Hobbits, which is kind of the major New York Times of Israel if you met and that's where these issues get debated today. So again, I think the fact that's it is possible today to argue. However, controversially that and all the other sides might also have claimed to to justice is is linked to to the peace process and do legitimizing Shimon Peres just talked about it the more Issue cell. This provision of the historical Narrative of historical view of 1948 is consistent with a more conciliatory position toward the Palestinians today at least as a partial redress. That's really like appreciate that would like to thank you rather for a coming in today. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me this our professor Udo Oren who whose parents were living in Palestine when Israel declared independence 50 years ago. He was born in Israel retains Israeli citizenship teaches at the University of Minnesota political scientist and the University Minnesota political scientist. Martin Sampson has been with us this hour as well as we look back at the creation of the state of Israel. According to be Israeli calendar. It happened 50 years ago today, and of course there been big celebrations In Israel the last several days though climaxing a today with celebrations like to thank all of you have been with us this hour and we hope you'll be able to stay tuned now a President Clinton is having his first news conference of the year for solo news conference in here live coverage is part of our Talk of the Nation program programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by the Pillsbury company Foundation caring for the community by giving kids a loving lift. That's it for midday today. Tomorrow. We're going to zero in on those test scores that are out. The basic skills test scores are out and we'll be taking a look at those tomorrow over the noon hour. Beginning Monday a series of calling programs in documentaries examining the history of disabilities in America. That's Monday at midday and Talk of the Nation on Minnesota Public Radio k n o w FM 91.1 you're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. We have a sunny Sky now is 68 degrees at Cana W FM 91.1 Minneapolis. And st. Paul should be sunny all afternoon in the Weather Service says it could hit 75° yet today increasing Cardinals tonight with a low in the low 50s and tomorrow. There is a chance for some rain in the Twin Cities with a high in the upper sixties.