Thank you Gratis 6 minutes and I'll pass the 11 today's programming is made possible in part by The Advocates of Minnesota Public Radio contributors include the McKnight Foundation working to strengthen families and communities and US Bank the Regions Financial partner for 68 years. And good morning. This is midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten and a happy birthday to you. Today is the 28th Annual observance of Earth Day at the Mark the occasion. We've been joined today by Peter Larsen the commissioner and chair of the citizens board board of the Minnesota Pollution Control agency back in the 1970s a course in the LC an early day is an environmental movement. The PCA was in the news virtually every day of aggressive Lee leading the charge to clean up the environment critics. In fact set up the time the PCA was too aggressive too often trading business is guilty until proven innocent these days the PCA still being criticized but now critics say that Minnesota's lead environmental agency is not Tough Enough. They pointed Lee Koch Refinery case in the continuing controversy over agricultural feedlots is proof proof positive that the PCA has been far too lacks with large-scale polluters. Welcome. Larson is here today to talk about those issues and some of the broader environmental issues facing Minnesota. And we invite you to give us a call. Join our conversation this morning to 276 thousand is our Twin City area number to 276 thousand. And if you're calling from outside the Twin Cities, you can reach us toll-free at one eight hundred to +422-828-227-6000 or one 800-242-2828 Peter Larsen League Commissioner of a Pollution Control agency is our guest this morning and commissioner. Thanks for coming in. Happy birthday to you. Good morning Gary happy birthday to you to answer Minnesota's lead Agency on environmental issues a how has that the agencies approach to these problems evolved over the years. How do you see it? Well, it's evolving is the right word. It's it's a time of great Evolution and Environmental Protection business and our agency is evolving the way most agencies. Does the country are evolving? In fact, I just came from a speech by one of the people at EPA in charge of their evolution and his speech revolved around more collaborative approach has a larger what we call toolbox to do with environmental problems. We NEPA started back in the seventies with essentially a process of setting strict standards permitting folks and enforcing against those that didn't meet those standards is a great way to do business. We got a lot of success over 30 years and that way of doing business, but we and EPA many others now, I realizing that I'm the problems of change that we're dealing with a society has changed government has changed business has changed and there's there's much more of an evolution not towards leaving those tools behind. That's something I want to make real clear not leaving behind their primary responsibilities were still in the business of setting tough standards enforcement numbers. I don't particularly like being judged by these numbers because I don't think there. Indicator of actual environmental performance by our agency, but if you want to just buy those numbers, they're actually up from what they've been. In fact when Arne Carlson came in one of the criticisms of the agencies. We need to keep track of the stuff on there was environmental agencies Oddity vinyl groups auditing Masters newspaper articles within weeks of when Arnie came in saying that the agency was doing a terrible job of holding people accountable and over the last eight years. We've done a lot to track this stuff better to be more uniform and enforcement to add to enforcement tools. So we are actually adding a lot of enforcement activity. I don't think people quite give us credit for but I want to get beyond that discussion and we're also moving a lot towards collaboration have the Minnesota American River has just announced a few weeks ago that the Minnesota River was being taken off their watch list is I think the number two or three River in the country on that was in trouble and they took it off this year. And the reason they took it off was because a lot of people in that area Stepped up over the last few years government businesses Farmers Community folks and also because of not a regulatory stance by state government by it's something called the conservation Reserve enhancement program where we're going to put money into easements for about a hundred thousand acres in the Minnesota River Valley to clean that River and that you're there's there's an example of what it's not like we're giving up enforcement that area. We actually at the first criminal prosecution of a feedlot operator under this Administration, we've had a couple dozen since then so it's not that overtime there hasn't been enforcement activity, but the really big effort that's taken place has been cooperative and that's that's the big change in environmental practices both in our agency and across the country is much more of an addition of the collaborative partnership kinds of of approaches to environmental problems. Why do you suppose so many environmental activists are so critical of your agency midnight there at their position and short is that you just have been to Acts too willing to cooperate in and it not willing enough to confront when that's necessary, but it wouldn't be appropriate for me to deny that some environmental groups are saying that not all of them are but we've got good partners as well. But some are and I understand their point if you take Coke or fighting for an example, I would argue with them about whether we could have done something earlier some of the violations that were taking place AO3 head that literally be standing there to see we don't have anybody standing there. We were lucky enough to have some whistleblowers bring that to her attention, but we have been working hard with Coke on many areas. Could we have acted more quickly? Maybe are we acting appropriately now, I absolutely can we be assured the coax going to be a good performer in the future. I don't think so. We're going to do the best we can we have a lot of assurances from Coke that they're going to I'm turn things around including large Financial commitments the way I'd respond to some of these folks is just that we're very interested in that dialogue. Like him to come in and look at our enforcement numbers AA. I believe I have the facts behind me that we're not getting softer. What they're seeing is more Cooperative approach. In other areas. They're worried that we're going to focus our attention on those things. I'm telling you. We're not going to they have no reason to just trust me in that. They should keep a close. Look on what we're doing over the next couple years in and I believe I'll be proven correct that we're going to do a lot of both enforcement Cooperative activity. And then there's the feedlot issue big big hot issue going to see that it certainly isn't going to go away. What should be done about these the proliferation of feedlots, big and small across the state of Minnesota. What is the estimate is like there's 45 thousand of them right now and some of them are pretty pretty large people who live near them many people complain about the odors and the potential health hazards and son. Are you folks doing enough? Is there somebody that should be doing more to regulate those those feedlots Gary? I was very pleased to see the discussion that went on this year on NPR programs in the newspapers and especially if the legislature I've been at the agency for 5 years and I'll I don't believe that there's been a single issue that's been more important to us each one of those 5 years this year. It actually exploded much more of the Public's view. There are surface water issues that we have to continue to deal with groundwater issues clearly that the evolving issue is that are tax-exempt There's an order problem there that's important and we have to do if that Ferrari agencies work, which is much more of the pollution side headed and sulfite in some of those missions are of concern and we're trying to get a handle on that the important thing to think of environmentally about these feedlots in this was something that I think I got more clear as a legislative bit when I is that this isn't a big vs. Small issue. There are large feedlots that are built by operator to pick the right site. They're good neighbors. They work well with the local folks they design things. Well, they built things will they operate things? Well, those feedlots are operated an environmentally good way. There are some big ones that aren't may be operated quite as well pour sites are picked problems occur, and I don't mean to be a hard on Farmers because there's lots of good Farmers out there, but they're also small operations that have been in place for Generations that actually are causing probably on the whole Richard water problems because they're those sites weren't picked based on today's standards. They were picked sometimes several Generations ago and folks are doing things on those sites that they've been doing for years. We have to get on top of that we continue to increase our funding we've gone from five people that 25 people in the last 6 years working on this type of Bank Governor proposed a generic environmental impact statement to work on this what's really important to on Earth Day. It's important to talk about the relationship of the environment and other issues. Clearly what's going on in Greater Minnesota is this issue particularly a combination of economic concerns people have big vs. Small. Some farmers are going to be more successful and then others in that environment their social issues about whether you own your farm versus working for somebody who owns the bigger piece of an operation and then there's obviously environmental issues. And actually I think that's a good 1990s in Earth Day issue is how we actually work through these issues to make We take into account the environment affect the economy and the social issues on these in these communities across Minnesota and try to sell them all and in one good way Peter Larsen is our guest this our he is the commissioner of the pollution control agency. He's also chairman of the pca's citizens board. And if you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call to 276 thousand is our Twin City area number to 276 thousand. I'll try the Twin Cities 1 800 to +422-828-227-6000 or one 800-242-2828 talking environmental issues this hour and a great opportunity to get your questions answered this being Earth Day. Happy birthday to you to 27 6001 802-422-8288 Place organized a group in St. Paul on called them. We vote Watchdog environmental voters were concerned about a plan by the Metropolitan Council to build a new incinerator on the Mississippi River to incinerate the sewage sludge that is produced by our Metropolitan region that 80% of them the sewage Waters. Go to the plant on Pig's Eye Lake in the Mississippi River here in St. Paul and is currently being incinerated and the plan is from their perspective at this point at met Council has been 187 billion dollars to build a new incinerator about eight of US citizens went down and then testified asking them not to do that. And they had it scheduled. The decision date of actually tomorrow is a matter of fact. To prove that technology choice and and and they're good efforts. They they decided to delay that and are having a workshop next Tuesday at the 5 to talk some more about this at their environmental committee meeting the staff and actually recommended the incinerator and now the staff is saying well, maybe we need some more information and I'm wondering why the mpca has been absent commissioner from this discussion. We're talking about the one of the largest Public Works projects affecting almost every US citizen in the region affecting our wonderful Mississippi River and frankly, you know, we haven't seen a proactive effort on the part of the MPC a licensing pollution ought not to be the only function of the environmental agency of the state reducing pollution. It seems to me is the mission for the next Century not simply saying well. Are you fat you've continued pollution within the available increment of air that were licensing you for and you've only admitted certain things that you said you would do but instead get working to reduce and and get these things that the source and then what better opportunity. All right, then when we have a new plant coming online, thanks, Greg guy appreciate your group's involvement in this sounds like you probably know more about this site that I do, but I do know a little bit for the listeners. They should know that this is a big plant this I think treats about half the sewage that is produced in the state of Minnesota is this is this is a big issue and you stayed at the number 192 million dollars investment. That's a big investment. We understand your concerns the issue from my briefing. What I've heard is that this plant will be a better performer than the current plan but it's an issue of whether we can like you say get ahead of the other. Shervin, quit just controlling the pollution but but actually reducing it. I'm not familiar with the other options. I've heard them described. I understand that the Met council's got kind of a quandary and that they would like to get to send line to get this better. I'm performing plan in place. But certainly you're right. I'm glad the Met Council delayed their decision to have some more hearings prevention reduction figuring out what to do with that sludge to figure out how to put less pollution into the air is very important and I look forward to hearing what met council's decision is I don't know that it's fair to say that we haven't been involved. We've been actually talking about re permitting that plan for a couple years internally. We might not be as obvious to you is as the Met Council staff and some others, but certainly we've been very involved for a couple years and thinking about how this Reaper mini should take place. Do you think in general? Go to do you see your role as taking kind of a big picture look at pollution and environmental issues or a more narrow focus on individual projects as they come up. It's a combination of both more and more. We'd like to have our long-range planning our philosophies based on big-picture the status of the environment what Minnesota needs to do, but we can't forget today that were on agency that issues the permit for this plant. And so we have people that have to get into individual plants really do with it and interesting and of anecdote that we use around the agency that represent the changes taking place has a story of the toxic orange is what we call it that used to be and maybe currently as to a certain extent the job of the agency of somebody came in with some oranges and said, how do I get rid of these are Water Division would say well don't put them in the water that beat and they would have done their job. And of course they are people at Sabal don't burn them. You can't burn them in the southwest people say well as long as you don't bury them then it won't bother us. What we're trying to do is is service minnesotans better by understanding that these these oranges exist. We're trying to get rid of those silos of air and media air and water and solid waste and trying to figure out how to get more into the prevention mode. Why do these oranges good produced in the first place and try to figure out how to holistically to do with them not bounce them from one program to another Russell your question, please for commission Larson and then I joined already know we have been quite Credit Credit call of the operations of the pollution control agency Through The Years there hasn't been the enforcement that is needed to keep the state clean. to me this idea of cooperation between polluters in the pollution control agency agency rate results in nothing more but Slowdown of the control efforts that should be taken place and I think this is a very apparent thing too. Many environmental is today as I say we have been critics and we have always felt that this was true, but it took a turn for the worst with the present with the present makeup of the pollution control agency the Commissioners when they were when they were hand-picked when the governor has the top business group in the state to handpick the pollution control agency. That was a Minnesota Business Partnership. So that this cooperation between them in business. And in this agency has we feel resulted in practically no enforcement of existing laws. You feel like that that that has been to. Too much of a handicap for that for people to expect this agency to function. Measure thank U R Us like I can tell you that I wasn't handpicked by of the Minnesota Business Partnership. I understand your point. I I would suggest you come in and look at our enforcement number is especially compared to if you're taking some exception with the current Administration if you come in and try to look historically what was going on in the previous administration, I think I think we are numbers bear out pretty well. I you know, the other thing I wish you were with me this morning at a group called the Minnesota environmental initiative, which was giving out awards for collaborative environment approaches. Someone from EPA was their very highly ranked high-ranking official Works directly for Carol Brawner. Who as you probably would guess has a lot to do with vice president Al Gore he has a lot to do with environmental policies in the Clinton Administration and his whole speech this morning was about to move towards collaboration and and the different environmental challenges we have today and and particularly he focused on Used to be that people thought that there was simply a battle to be fought between economic considerations and environmental considerations. And if you focus more on one the other had to suffer and he was here to tell folks in Minnesota today at their administrations theory was that is no longer true statement that there can't be atmosphere in America are in Minnesota where this this falsehood continues to exist where people think that he has to be for the environment or for the economy and I believe that but I agree. I mean, I understand that you just want to watch this closely. I think we're doing a good job. I invite you to come in and see some of our numbers and I hope that your group stays active and keeps watching our environment performance of the next couple years to see if my my statements about you think if the PCA war to end up in a time machine and in bhandup back in the 1970s with a more aggressive approach that they used to carry. Rise the agency would that even work today? And you are mine. Well for a certain group we still need that if you talk with folks who are really around in the seventies. They say things like the business Community thought environmental hazard optional we needed strong enforcement today. There are still parts of the business community that believe environmental laws are optional and we still need strong enforcement. The difference is if you were going to look at a time machine is is coming from then till now if you just stepped into the business community and started swinging stick. I think you'd lose a lot of positive Partnerships cuz there's lots of CEOs and lots of of of companies whose leaders grew up in the fifties and sixties and seventies for a very different attitude than those that ran the businesses in the sixties and seventies. So I clearly that the time is right now for a different way of doing business, but I have all sorts of respect for the folks that did the hard work in the 70s in the I don't second-guess them for a second Kurt your question place by Circle Lake and Rice County and Circle Lake has a phosphorus level of some 500 parts per billion greater than 90 Parts is considered toxic recently your agency refuse to do an environmental assessment worksheet on a proposed feedlot that drains directly into this Lake if you want to do anything about an obvious flavoring problem like this. What good are you? Why I'd like to hear a little bit more about the side a I hope that your feed that the feed light there isn't draining into the lake because that would be against our rules. You might be talking about where the manure is going when it's spread and hopefully it's being spread correctly. Do you know more about that? There's a stream that runs right through this firearm that drains into a circle Lake and they've done testing at this outflow where the stream is and that's where the phosphorus is coming from and when this Feel I was proposed the citizens around the lake and all through Rice County sent you a request to do this worksheet. And it said you turned it right back to the County Commissioners and Rice County three of the County Commissioners have virtually said that they will never say no to any Farmers to any proposal and I think your agency is supposed to protect us people, you know that have an interest in that clean environment from the County Commissioners that don't seem to have an interest in looking at the scientific fact. Could you please take a note and look at the Circle Lake situation again? I will I will look at it. You've got a an interesting point on are dealing with with County Commissioners at have to say there are counties in Minnesota who got great Boards of Commissioners who are really doing a good job for the residents. I don't know the race Commissioners. Well, there are some some boards who are a little bit I think behind other other Counties in actually, I'm doing some land use planning and getting ahead of the curve. It's it's a quandary for us cuz certainly the legislators not going to put us in the position of doing land use planning for counties. And we do have to work with these folks, but I'd be happy to look at it. And if you give a call to my office I can tell you what I found out in general is it if you think it's pretty tough for County Commissioner to the standout I'm going somebody comes in and just do what we want to do this and everybody knows everybody else is probably have a significant economic benefit for the for the county pretty tough for those folks to the stand up and say no go away when it wouldn't be a better role for the state. It is tough and in some people might say and in certain circumstances that might be true that the state should just come in and make this decision cuz the local board can't I tend to believe that that might be the case in some situations, although for the longer-term locally-produced solutions X I have a better chance of success The Nature Conservancy for example is putting out a big push themselves to put more of their folks in communities because they feel like in the long-term. They'll get there and family advocacy goals more ingrained in those communities if they're actually living there working with folks. It's not that it's a short-term Solution that's better. It's a long-term Solution. That's better County Commissioners. I think of moved from being largely in our area are focused on Solid Waste probably 70's and into the 80s in the 90s. I think most County Commissioners would tell your water quality is a huge part of their job. They take it very seriously people win and lose elections based on their decisions and it's not because they're not doing what their neighbors who want to propose things want them to do. It's because folks expect them to do their job and it's been it's been a rough road for lots of County Commissioners. I think they're in general doing a pretty good job, but there's always anomalies and I don't know about this case, but I'd be happy to look into it. Larson is our guests this hour he is the commish Minnesota state Pollution Control agency, he's come by today on Earth Day to talk about some of the big environmental issues facing the state of Minnesota. Love to have you join our conversation. Give us a call. It's number in the Twin Cities is 2 to 76,000 to 276 thousand if you're calling from outside the Twin Cities 1 800 to +422-828-227-6000 or one 802-4228 to it more calls and just a moment. I'm learning Benson on the next All Things Considered most churches preach racial Harmony it to congregations in St. Paul one black and one white have gone a step further. They've merged to become one. I think we are more conscious of how interconnected our lives are. It's not a guilt trip is not at all feel good trip is just about you doing right you living out the gospel. It's all things considered weekdays at 3 on Minnesota Public Radio k n o w FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities. Invitation to join us over the noon hour today the second hour of our mid-day program. We're going off to the Minnesota meeting there from local a business leader Manny Jackson Who among other things owns the world famous Harlem Globetrotters, and he's going to be taking a look and talking about the role of sports and entertainment in the coming coming decade coming Century, really and so we get to that over the noon hour live coverage and we hope you'll be able to join us why you can't complain about the weather, but at least most people won't and can't sunny today highs mid-sixties to the mid-70s clear tonight Lowe's mid-thirties to mid-forties sunny tomorrow at the high in the low 70s to the low 80s. The Weeknd well maybe a shower on Saturday and a good chance for rain on Sunday Twin Cities Sunny this afternoon with high in the low 70s clear tonight with a low 4245 tomorrow sunny with a high in the mid-70s right now temperatures in the sixties around the region Twin City temperature is 65 and skies are Sunny Peter Larsen is our guests this our he is the commissioner of Minnesota Pollution Control agency joining us today on Earth Day to talk about environmental issues facing the state of Minnesota. If you'd like to join our conversation to 276 thousand or one 800-242-2828 a reminder that programming on NPR is supported by the Guthrie Theater Performing Shakespeare's romantic comedy Much Ado About Nothing Now through May 17th only tickets available 37722 to 4. Back to the phone. Susan has a question glad place. It seems to me that the PCA really is a toothless agency because my understanding governmental unit is the one that makes at whatever level is where the decision is made in certain instances whether or not to set up an E A W and I don't see how the state you know, I I would think that the state would be able to at a certain point, you know how to say well you must do this but in certain cases the governmental unit is exempt from doing that. So I could you dressed now, please maybe I'm incorrect W is an environmental assessment worksheet Which is less than a statement but more than a study or separate bed. That's right Gary. It's a severe mental assessment worksheet that used to determine whether an environmental impact statement should be prepared and Susan you're right that local governments off and have a responsibility for this. It's really a legacy. That's that's a positive one from some of the work that one out in the seventies the Minnesota by Mel Policy Act in Minnesota environmental Rights Act both were adapted way back then Environmental Quality board has some rules that says if it's this type of project then this is who the rgu the responsible government unit will be and you're right for example on certain types of residential development things like that local governments make the determination. We make the determination on things we permit in general especially for example of feedlots has been discussed a lot. I think the philosophy was of that and I wasn't I want it was past they were probably some compromises involved but that they wanted folks locally to do the study's. It's not a permitting is important to realize that it's not it's not a permanent discussion that takes place. It's a review of whether there's potential for significant environmental harm and it's a decision of whether there needs to be additional study is not one of the problems with that whole system is the EAS system has become so expensive at the eaw decision to require an Eis has an effect of permanent decision and it's and it's it's turning down the permit because often people will walk away from a project but you know for good or for bad Susan Fox 20 years ago decided that lots of levels of government should be responsible for these studies. Mostly it works. Well, but I think most most folks would like to change the environment review process in Minnesota and fortunately it's incredibly controversial change that that would be considered a folks. Although they see some problems with it generally think it works pretty well and folks some folks are worried that it will very little bit. Simply by opening it up. So I think that it'll be a process is working. Okay until it gets really bad. It's going to be what we're going to live with and in general minnesotans a real lucky to have it Most states don't have that kind of brand review. So the local governments wouldn't have any sort of opportunity to hold hearings to have local folks Express their opinion. So although it might not work perfectly on Minnesota should be proud that has it at all like your next go ahead place is huge all around the state and it's it's going to be getting bigger as more people notice what's going on, you know, my heart goes out to you guys because you know as the MPC ASA not agricultural State and and it's also an environmental state so you're pulled between farmers and big will actually big agricultural interests and lots and lots of money like a pork producers blog and stuff like that. Just pouring money in there supporting the feedlots and you folks are You know, you're bound to get a lot of criticism from both sides. My question is do you know why I was listening to the legislative debates this year on NPR's matter fact and they did a great job. Why in the world would you guys have folks on your board that actually own feedlots and support feedlots. It just blows me away. I mean, it seems like you'd be opening yourself up to a lot of criticism that way at the end of last year or three of the nine members of the board were feedlot operators in 1 sensor another that's right Gary and I don't disagree with you at all then in doing that. We open ourselves up to some criticism but it was a very conscious decision to do it the way we did and I think it was appropriate and here's why we saw many years ago that this was an issue that was going to explode in rural Minnesota and I think much Before the legislature has done a good job and many issues. But I think we were ahead of the curve on this one and we decided that tough decisions were going to have to be made by our agency and dealing with agricultural Community. You're right that they're very powerful force in Minnesota. And we thought in order to really do a good job and understanding what we were doing and also they have some credibility behind our decisions that we had to have some folks involved in the decisions that new agriculture. Looking at our record. I think we've done a very good job over the last five years and getting a handle on this issue. And I think that it's been accepted by folks across the state in general as appropriate because we can show that we didn't ignore ignore how the industry worked and we had people on our board that we're helping make these decisions. Now whether you think that's good or not depends on whether you think we've we've made the tough decisions that were necessary. I really think we have we've we've got the largest one of the largest and I don't want to say the largest cuz there might be one or two states in the running for this field stamps in the country. We've got some of the toughest standards and building them people invite us to be on boards across the country in order to develop feedlot programs. So if I'm sorry if you believe if we haven't been tough enough if you think having are culture members on a board has been it had an impact. That's the risk. We we took but environmentally I think we did the right thing. We've got a tough program. Stop is any of the country and we've been able to do it in a way. That's generally pretty well accepted. There are lots of state tuition. They had our our program but frankly, they've been flagged by the agricultural interest in those States and after also put in a little bit of a plug for the pork producers. I know this is a little risky for me and my position they obviously want to build sites that's their job and a lot of them were going to be big but I believe their staff and many of their members are very cognizant of the potential problems. If they have if there had environmental problems, there's some of the most supportive of some of our enforcement actions when we find out something is going bad. It has there have been circumstances were they have called and said you better be tough on this guy because we don't want him to be thought of as representative of our industry and we want you to show that you're to be tough on people that that aren't doing the right thing. It's a tough balance your you're right. I'm not looking for sympathy but depends on the day whether we're being accused of doing the right thing or the wrong thing be too tough for to Lacks. And I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with the way we're actually doing business. It's kind of how the pendulum swings back and forth. I hope what folks think of us. And I think we're doing the right job. I think the right decision was made but those folks on the board. Have you folks ever turn down a permit for a feedlot? I believe I read just read somewhere that that you hadn't is that true. It's a it's a tricky issue we have turned on some but I already talked about the environment review process a little bit in these with the big facilities. They go through any 8w process if they see too much controversy coming down the road or knee is in their future. They'll pull their project. So we never get to kind of match her belt saying we turn that one down because the project is simply goes away a lots of projects have gone away based on our work, but we can't match your belt and say Here's the boat that took place that turn that one down Scott your next your question, please. Have a comment I manage department welfares for a corporation in town here. And I guess the one thing that I find is that the public simply does not understand the level of regulations that we work with and mpca does regulate us and they do a credible job in terms of following through on their responsibilities on most issues and they do have a lot of interaction with us in terms of getting those regulations implemented. I want some of the people that I've heard earlier. I just strikes me they have virtually no knowledge of the vast array of regulations and laws that exist in this country. And if you're going to do business in this decade in the future, you better get in line. If you want the fact that you're going to have to manage these issues effectively and the only way you can do it is by working with the PCA and the EPA and any other government agency whether it says State local or federal level and I I guess I would almost make this is somewhat of a support Because I do think agency overall has made a number of real improvements in terms of how they work with us. So I guess that's pretty much that sounds like well, I appreciate the call in a fight. I could just describe a few rewards that were given out this morning at a place. I was these are folks that are in business to make money, but I'm Bob angstrom is a developer that developed fields of st. Croix. He was picked by a jury is as a developer who's doing some good things for the environment. We have an environment lot of policy lots of businesses in Minnesota or voluntarily giving us Audits and describing what they're going to do to improve their performance the printing industry in Minnesota Scott Schuler their director on his got something like Fifty printers who are doing volunteer environmental work based on their associations call of being better environmental performers BFI, even out in Pine band got an award for the way. They're taking methane after landfill producing electricity and taking greenhouse gas. Saudi environment, Minnesota environmental initiative is looking for these types of ideas are giving awards this morning and certainly not everybody's in those categories. Not everybody got an award today, but I appreciate the comment that more and more businesses are realizing. This is the way to do business if they want to survive. Peter Larson, the commissioner of the pollution control agency is our guest on this Earth Day if you'd like to join our conversation at a lot of time left, but they give us a call with your question, please to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828. I should ask you commissioner. You said the that you folks managed to get ahead of the power curve there on on the feedlot issue recognizing that was going to be a big deal. What do you see as the next big environmental issue? Down the road. There are some tough ones coming up global climate change. I think it's the one that's the most in the paper recently. It's a very difficult scientific argument whether it were certain that that something bad is happening our Administration Governor Carlson has taken the position that there's enough evidence that there isn't there something we have to do about it people have to realize that two-thirds of our global climate change gases are produced by Transportation or will soon transportation and electric generation that means in order to reduce those emissions individuals are going to change the way they they run their lives that's going to be a big challenge for the next 10 years a big impact on people's lives there something called endocrine disruptors that there was a story recently about the feminization of wall eyes and can't even concerned lot of fishermen. There's some new substances. We're not quite sure where they come from. Some of them might be naturally occurring there. Are there lots of options. We might just be learning about this now, but certainly There's an indication that there's lots of substances both and water discharges in are discharges that we're just learning about and we're going to we're going to have I think significantly brought any amount of of substances that are under some sort of control whether it's voluntary Regulatory. And those are two big issues in obviously a little bit outside of my perspective, but certainly of concerned a governor Carlson there things like habitat and I'm species diversity those those are things we have to be very concerned about in terms of the climate issue. Do you see us imposing significantly stricter emissions standards on automobiles? I'm certainly something's going to happen with automobiles. Whether it's a regulatory process or new engine who knows around 2008-2010. The federal government is probably is telling us that there's going to be some systems in place that we're going to have to deal with to reduce Global Climate changing gases. And we have to do with transportation. We have to deal with coal-fired power plants in terms of the coal-fired power plants is that mean what happens to nuclear power in that equation? This is a discussion. We're going to have to have asses as a society. I don't want to advocate here for nuclear power, but they're certainly some problems that we have with coal-fired power plants. And NSP is does a what does a fine job in many ways Minnesota power outage help are there lots of folks in Minnesota or trying to sell this but the fact is that that minnesotans want Power it's being produced largely by coal-burning power plants and those coal-burning power plants. Cousin Bernal. There's an equation here that we have to solve weather nuclear becomes more of a solution here. I don't know and many other countries that has whether whether we can take that step in America. I won't predict. Alright Jim your question place. What I've been wondering about is all these gullies Solutions and problems Nazi mood if we don't start controlling a population and as the population grows in an area, it's got a deplete the system and it seems like all the PCA seems to do is just keep adjusting down the adjusting up the stand whatever they are so that they brought and I'm so that they allow more and more people to pollute and it's until we get to a point where we start controlling where the populations growing. We're just going to have to have more feedlots were there clean or dirty or whatever simply to feed the population and out where I live. We used to have a lot of firms in a lot of of Critters running around while they're all the firms are being turned into the developments and all the wetlands orb. Turned into private ponds for the camel on people and it seems like every we don't have half the critters. We used to have the keys don't stop by anymore. And until we start stopping the population growth in the spread out weird. It's just going to keep getting worse and all the PCA can do is just kind of hang on to the tail of the dog is it runs down the pike until we all end up in a position where we were sort of forced into it missionary wrestling with symptoms rather than the disease. Well, I certainly am I don't think Jimmy would be surprised to hear me say that population growth. Is it going to be something we're going to directly take action on but you are exactly right, especially if you live in the Twin Cities, but I think more and more than real Minnesota the population growth in Minneapolis-Saint Paul in the surrounding area urban sprawl. Our cousin is causing all sorts of of problems. And I don't think we've seen anything yet people. We've got some folks in our agency. Some people their age, Met Council a some folks who can tell us what's going to happen. I think they're they can be relatively accurate, but I don't think the general populace quite understands the storm water issues involved the loss of habitat on the transportation issues. The increasing in vehicle miles traveled is the way we stayed at on we're in for a much different metropolitan area and in a different Minnesota and I'm 10 or 20 years and I hope minnesotans will continue to learn about this stuff. So they'll support government and their Community is actually taking some more actions to try to get ahead of this. I really think that folks want this to be dealt with on the other hand you do a lot of people these are people moving into these areas they want it but we're government for the people so we have to figure out why these folks are doing what they're doing and try to help them meet their goals in a way. That's a maybe a little bit more environmentally sound your question, please. You made regarding NSP in the prairie Island nuclear plant. I'd like to know what the PCH specifically is doing to monitor the dry Cask the dry casks at Prairie Island. And if you're not monitoring them who is We do not have direct regulatory Authority on that but I am on the Environmental Quality board, which has some Authority krisanda was another one of my fellow Commissioners is working hard to not only keep track of those casks, but also get them out of Minnesota. The federal government is collecting hundreds of millions of dollars every year promising to take that waist and put it in a safer place if they did not follow through on their responsibilities and it's a real shame for minnesotans. I think Chris is doing a good job fighting on the federal level. She's had some success and we're working as hard as we can those casks. Are they are we we need a long-term solution. I don't tend to believe some of the experts to say that they're not a big risk where they're sitting right now, but certainly not a good long-term solution time for at least one more question here k, On the river and the proposal considers at least the ones for remediation consider a hundred year high water mark. Well, I don't know how Pro proactive extend you extend your time. But in a thousand years were talking about having the the Lake Superior flow in the st. Louis River and that everybody election will not be appropriate. How far ahead do you look? Thanks, and I appreciate your work on the wrap up there that that's incredible success story working in St. Louis River. We look out. It sounds to me like, you know more than I do here were looking at a hundred years there. That's a long time for many of our programs. The trouble with Superfund sites is its there's a very clear balance that we have to strike in the class that we can put into a protect the environment today and where we should spread that money versus in Interlaken other places and I want the real long-term Solutions are I suspect it's some of the Superfund sites will just be honest in 40 or 50 years are going to have to be readdressed this site the staff I think is doing a real good job. You've got a good Duluth office of the Minnesota Pollution Control agency up there. I think they work well with this rap and All I can say is is keep working with us the way your group has and and I have a lot of Duluth is is going to be a oven burn all concerned for a long time because that was an industrial city for a long time. There's lots of problems working after work through up there don't care if people are still is fired up about environmental issues as they once were or has the zip was that kind of a fad. That's an interesting question. Because certainly this religious fervor that that I hear describe from the 70s is probably kind of tone down but conversely all the all the surveys that we doing and the ones we read say I could 60 to 80% of the folks Place environmental issues very high. I think it's a credit to our agency not just our eight years, but they didn't see overall that fellow people feel strongly about it. It's not as as big a fighting issue on because I think government and others are doing a decent job of trying to address these issues. I think the reason it was There was such a strong statement back in 70s when the first Earth day was was because there were so many problems that just weren't being dressed. Nice coming in today and happy birthday. Thank you. Very happy birthday doll your listeners, Minnesota Pollution Control agency commissioner Peter Larson joining us on this Earth Day edition of midday. We will continue in just a moment. I'm Ray Suarez summer vacation is right around the corner. But before you load up the van remember not all national parks are created equal Yellowstone in comparison is like Disney World will visit some of the lesser-known jewels of the National Park Service on the next Talk of the Nation from NPR news. Talk of the Nation begins at 1 each weekday here on Minnesota Public Radio time now for Garrison Keillor and The Writer's Almanac