Mpr's Main Street radio coverage of Royal issues is supported by the blandin foundation committed to strengthening communities through grant-making leadership training and convening. We invite you to visit the Main Street website a www.mpr.org for today's broadcast will be available for later listening. You can also hear a series of reports and commentaries on treaty rights and tribal sovereignty and view historic Lodge of native photographs from the Minnesota History Center the address again for the Main Street website www.mpr.org.Good afternoon, and welcome to the special Main Street radio show live from the Mille Lacs Indian museum in central, Minnesota. I'm Rachel reabe. If you drive up the western shore of Milacs Lake, you'll find yourself on the Mille Lacs Indian Reservation a Sovereign Nation with its own laws. This hour. We're going to talk about tribal sovereignty and how the rules are different on the reservation joining me here at the Museum is Henry Buffalo Minneapolis attorney and sovereignty expert. He's also a member of the Red Cliff band of Ojibwe. Our other guest is in our Saint Paul Studio Mary Jo Brooks Hunters the chief tribal judge for the Ho-Chunk tribe in Wisconsin where she's a member. She also teaches lot Hamline University in St. Paul welcome to both of you are phone lines are open also for your questions and comments. You can call us one 800-537-5252Let's begin talking about tribal sovereignty. It's evolved over the past 200 years Henry. What was the original intent of sovereignty as it applies to the Indian nation is a matter of policy the at the Activity actually predates the existence of United States in terms of the relationship between Indian nations and the colonial governments that appeared on the shores at that point in time. They pretty much rule themselves pursuant to what was known as international law and within international law they recognized each other is sovereigns and they decided that they would engage you through either a policy of War to achieve their political and economic objectives or they could engage themselves in a in a policy of dialogue and negotiation which would usually result in a treaty again, achieving the same sort of political or economic objectives. Does sovereign mean equals? I think so in terms of the standard definition of sovereign that each Sovereign Nation or Sovereign group has their own power or their own rank within that particular jurisdiction. It doesn't I don't think me and equal in the sense of is say the Mille Lacs band of Ojibwe Nation equal to the US government. No not equal in that sense, but equal in their inherent Sovereign abilities. We have seen sovereignty though go through quite an evolution people now talk about quasi sovereignty or semi sovereignty. What does that mean? Henrietta Hots you're answering or I will but I will be glad to go ahead my sense of that is that for Indian nations? Because tribes did have us as Henry mentioned their own Sovereign status prior to the arrival of Europeans. What is occurred with Indian nations in particular is that they have gone from fully independent nations and involve evolve into a status where we have a relationship with the federal government, which has play some limitations on the level of the degree of sovereignty that an Indian nation has that has come about by the legal history of American Indians in this country case law legislation treaties. All of that has impacted to have certain limitations on the 70 level of Indian nations. There are at least two concepts involved in in the word sovereignty one is internal and the other is external and normally the what one would view was the external powers of sovereignty. I would include those that involve the ability to negotiate treaties or agreements with foreign Nations or to raise an army or to print your own money. Most try all tribes in the United States that have a relationship with the United States no longer have those external forms of sovereignty for the most part what you see exercised now when which has been recognized by the courts and has evolved over this time. I pretty much are aspects of internal sovereignty which is that idea of making your own laws within your territory and be being governed by those laws as a pendulum swing is so many other things are Did we go from being fully Sovereign? She was an Indian Nation. Then this quasi kind of semi Sovereign which some people would even call dependency you are being protected by Big Brother you were being taken care of by the United States. Have we seen that now with the introduction of casinos and the economic turnaround that we're seeing on some reservations. Is that coming back now our tribes now asserting more of their Sovereign rights than they were 15 years ago. United States and tribal government relationship has been through various periods of policy development over time in the. That I would say we're in right now is called the self-determination. And actually began in the early sixties. And so we began to see a lot of the initial assertion of authority by tribes or assertion of rights in the natural resource area. Like we have been discussing with respect to the to the example here in Milacs involving of the Mille Lacs reservation the other Chippewa and the Fond du Lac reservation in Minnesota in the other Chippewa from Wisconsin, but I would say that you know, it's been it predates the the development of economic Prosperity that some tribes are seen as a result of Gaming. I agree with Henry. I think what is a curd is that now? The exercise of sovereignty is being known by others outside of the tribal jurisdiction. And that is why there's a view that it's being exercised more strenuously when that is not the case. I just think that others are becoming more aware of it feeling its effects more. However, there has always been that level of tribal sovereignty and I think that tribes because of the economic development that have occurred recently it is becoming more known to people who were unaware of of what it was occurring on Indian reservations in jurisdictions. We have Dale from The Fond du Lac reservation on the phone good afternoon Arrow self-determination or self-governance here are there operating with non-consensual authority in 1934. The Indian reorganization Act was passed to the plants are natural. Note to self government in my question is is why aren't the reservation business committee following the governing document. I'm going to go to Chippewa tribe Constitution and giving the consent of the affected people on this new era of self-determination and self-governance the document that that authorizes these people to have to run as a government is only authorizing them to run as reservation business committee Indian reorganization Act authorized or or at least provided a form of government under which tribe could organize and all the tribes is as far as I know in Minnesota, maybe with the exception of Red Lake did indeed organize under our Constitution and bylaws and and They're certainly, you know, it's the vehicle I guess that that was created and it's been now in use for over 60 years. I guess if you if you look back to 1936 is a starting time and so for a lot of contemporary tribal people. It's the only vehicle that they know one of the issues. I know when I was in college at always used to come up as in a why don't we return to the to the traditional form of government while I'm not so sure who would determine what the traditional form of government was and in most instances my experience with that is the people who are you most for that are people who cannot get elected to the existing forms of tribal government? We have Kevin from Northfield on the phone. Good afternoon. Go ahead with your question are coming away from my bad River. And what I was thinking about on this issue is that those people who are protesting against Indian treaty rights are also the same people that would be protesting for the rights of people in the former states of the Soviet Union Czechoslovakia, Romania Poland and East Germany, and they agree with the idea that those people have a right to self-government and those countries but they do not agree that that issue is is Supply Native American people and I was wondering if you had any comments on that comparison. Mary Jo coming for that. Well, I think that I want to start a respond to Kevin as well as today. I'll in terms of our self governance. I think there is a real I'm in patients about what we should be doing in terms of where tribes are going in and I'm not legit way. I am Ho-Chunk so that I'm speaking more in terms of my own tribe, but I think we are in a period of progression. It's important for tribal governments to respond to their own members and in a positive way so that are all of our tribal members of the majority of them are satisfied with our own tribal governments and that is a process that's going to take time as we evolve and develop into whatever our governments take whatever form of government sweet evolve into in the next few years are in the next millennium. The other part of that is that I sync for what I attribute of self-governance are we have to take part in participate in our own governments and and make Viable processes for our people so that those on the outside who may be critical of what we're doing can look at them and see that we are satisfied with them. So we project a positive image but it's a process. It's an ongoing process are tribal government says they stand now have been changed recently and we don't have traditional forms. As Henry said we've evolved into some standardization of microcosms of the US government and now tribes are taking time to go back in to revitalize their systems to redo their constitutions my tribe in particular we've Rewritten our constitution to sort of incorporate things that are traditional as well as it is a system that's going to be beneficial to all of our people and that's something that Outsiders can understand when we talk about what we're doing to to move into a better form of government. One of the things that I would like to do is maybe respond His point about who's protesting in Ni, I would hate to generalize. I've I've been I graduated law school from Wisconsin 1981 and 1982. I created the Great Lakes Indian Fish and Wildlife Commission. So I've been involved in these issues in the hunting and fishing and natural resource issues since that time. And it seems to me that certainly there may be some of those people that he described who would support you no other governments rights for self-determination and not support Indians rights for self-determination, but I think we don't want to fall into a situation where we generalize across the board at that because I know there are many of those people who are concerned about the Harvest of resources by Indian people are operating pretty much on the basis of ignorance in terms of what tribes have to do in order to harvest and this contemporary day and I think in your first hour, you talked a lot about the types Regulations that tribes have adopted in that they that they do their primary concern is protections of resources. And that's the basis for adopting those regulations. But I think a lot of those other protesters may come from those who are just sincerely concerned about the resource don't have the information listen, maybe two too many rumors and you know base their judgments on that and what I would like to have is to have them continue to have an open mind with respect to this issue Indians themselves are split on the issue of tribal sovereignty some think it should be expanded others feel they would be better off at if it was abandoned. We have Marvin manypenny on the phone with us this afternoon. He's a member of the white Earth band of Ojibwe. Marvin you don't think the present system of semi sovereignty works very well. Tell me why you support a concept of expanded sovereignty. You're going to have to State your question again. I had a bad connection here and I didn't hear your question fully. I'm asking you about your opinion on expanding sovereignty. Why is that important? Expanding sovereignty I believe that first of all what we talked about. I've been listening to the two attorneys here to talk about the type of sovereignty were currently under I believe that is quasi-sovereign status we are now under I believe has to Come to an end and that the people have a right to self-determination. And I believe that right to self-determination is our right to determine our own form of government or political status right now under the Indian reorganization Act system should succeed or fail on their own without any input or support or regulations from the United States government. The relationship has to be rehashed in the sense that who speaks for us. Politically. I believe that. Political voice isn't being truly heard your because we have a quasi-sovereign that up. Basically the government is coming out the policies of the federal government. So you want a tribal government that is more independent than what you're saying now. I think the people have a right to develop their own form of government. Then I think you mentioned to you when we have the right to fail or succeed based upon our own visions and our own ways of setting up institutions of government. That'll work for us. Henry Buffalo, do you think that would work do you think if the United States just got out of the business of the Indian nation that that would be an improvement is very important and it's that relationship sets us apart from every other minority group in the country. And I think we we we would want to continue to assure that the relationship that we have which basically is this status as Sovereign Nations within this country is protected in some way and I'm not I'm not sure. If the see the federal government did try to get out of this at one point and that was in the 50s and when the federal government did it basically terminated its relationship with a lot of Indian tribal governments in this country. And after that happened the tribes themselves became disorganized and assimilated into the general society around them. One of the biggest, I guess one of the greatest examples of how this type of termination the adverse impact this type of termination does have is located right next door here in the state of Wisconsin when the Menominee tribe was terminated and there were just a tremendous amount of problem Associated as a result of that. So I think most tribal leaders will say that they would have to go very slowly and carefully when engaging in this sort of discussion because of we cannot forget our History, we cannot forget what termination had done before and instead we should continue to look at ways that we can strengthen our own governments from this point on comment. I agree with Henry. I think that it's it's very serious to consider having the US government not be a part of this situation part of the problem is we forget the history that this is all based upon that the status of Indian nations predates European arrival, but that the the special unique legal relationship that we have with the federal government is based upon the history that American Indians have here that is with the relationship of the alliance to the colonists to allow for the land to be taken if you have I don't really want to use that word but there was a lot that was based on it in our history which many of us forget about and I think there is needs to be crashing on with all the respect to mr. Manypenny. That there are those who take those kind of words and take it to the nth degree and by that I take Senator Gorton's bill which is being entry door, which was introduced in the senate in February that is asking for limitations on tribal sovereignty and we have to be cautious about what we asked for because we may get it Congress does have plenty repower and almost absolute power to make inroads on tribal sovereignty and without the involvement of of the federal government that can impact on some of the smaller tribes very with very serious effects and has Henry said that Menomonie our prime example, they were terminated. They asked to have their status as a tribe reinstated which did occur because the County's and the states have to think about if there is no longer a federal government relationship to tribes then that's going to put more on the state and County coffers. Having involvement with those tribes and I don't know if that's really what everyone wants and as far as what's going on within our own tribes. Mr. Manypenny. I really encourage you to take part and trying to change the status within your own government. Now, I know there are many problems are wider than I know they're not something that can be simply resolved by Mike suggesting that you work within your own government, but I think that's what we all have to do is tribal members that's in him very important part of it. If we want to get to a different type of status in the interest of self-determination. I've been misunderstood you I believe that the alarm dackel 6 of the United States Constitution section 2 points it out and I think that's where we should redirect our our effort in a sense of this plenary power. I think I suggest you take a look at my college versus Maryland 1819 for the finding was the confessional Authority consist of Those Powers delegated to constant to Congress in the Constitution. And for the life of me. I've been reviewing the United States Constitution and the Indians are mentioned three times in the u.s. Constitution Article 1 Section 2 Clause 3 and not talks about representation in Congress Article 1 Section 8 Clause 3. That's the Indian Commerce Clause. I'm also talking about the 14th Amendment section 2 and what that says they're excluding Indians not taxed and I believe that we have to take a darn good look at that. And are we represented in this government? Do we have representation in Congress? Who passes laws Google all the courts here? And what are we a ping-pong ball within that system Johnson vs McIntosh for the incorporation of the disc. Read auction into American law. I think those types of things have to be looked at. I don't think that we should be accepting this plenary Authority. I want to know where's where'd that come from? LOL is it just based upon might makes right. I think that's where I'm coming from and article 6 talks about the Treaty respond to this Henry. Let's take a break here in and respond to some of the things that he has said your comments on them. There was a period in the early 80s were several people who work in in the in this area the law federal in question the whole idea of the origin of plenary authority because I think the individual caller is right that there isn't any one place you can point at in the Constitution that says Congress will have this absolute power. However, what has happened over time is that the relationship has been defined by the courts and those cases that he mentions McAuliffe Johnson those who have all been brought up from time to time to challenge congress's authority to do what it does with respect to Indian tribes in the Indian Federal relationship. But, you know, we're sort of in that situation. I guess we're Continue to make the arguments in the hopes that maybe someday somebody some portwell. Listen, and I guess agree with our position, which is that Congress should be made to identify the source of this power. Thank you. Repeat. We will now go to you in Saint Paul for your question or comment all the taxpayer-funded programs in the state and they are not currently paying really any taxes and with the casinos around someone how they felt about that and ability to fund their own programs and social programs and such. At this point in the conversation. I'd like to introduce the solicitor-general for the Mille Lacs band of Ojibwe Jim Genie and maybe this is a question Jim. That would be good for you to jump in on what about the question of taxes? This is something that people are very unclear about what did the people on your reservation which taxes do they pay in terms of individual taxes? And that's very wrong individual ending people pay the same federal taxes as anyone else would pay income taxes Social Security taxes out of those sorts of things the one limited except in four types of tax that individual Indian people pay is that if an individual Indian person lives on a reservation and also works on a reservation, then they are exempt from paying state income tax. That's the only exemption in terms of an individual Indian person. So because individual onion people pay all the same tax the federal government, they receive services from the federal government, but Are taxpayers and they oughta be receiving services and and the the there is a large number of Indian people Minneapolis for example was the sort of a stopping point in the 50s for what they call the relocation program which took a lot of Indians off reservations and put them in urban areas. And so the state of Minnesota itself outside of the reservations. I does have a large Indian population in every all of those people who are working in the urban areas or or off reservation all are subject to paying the state income taxes, and that's money that goes into funding the programs that the state does found on an Indian reservations. Mary Jo Brooks Hunter. I know we're out of time with you. We want to thank you for being part of our show this afternoon. Thanks for coming in. Your welcome. We are going to continue this discussion on Saturday from the Mille Lacs Indian museum with Minneapolis attorney Henry Buffalo and also the solicitor-general for the Mille Lacs band of Ojibwe Jim genium. You heard early in the sour Marvin manypenny talk about his ideas of expanding sovereignty. We now have Bill Lawrence on the phone. He's a member of the Red Lake band of Ojibwe Indians. He thinks his people would be better off without tribal sovereignty Lawrence who runs to Native American newspapers out of Bemidji is on the phone with us. Mr. Lawrence. Why doesn't sovereignty work? Because sovereignty gives the tribal governments too much power it recognizes tribal governments in the Indian people. I have come to the conclusion that sell virginity is based on Injustice and bad policy. There's nothing the Constitution is nothing any treaty is that any law it is merely the figment imagination a few judges and elected politicians with the noble savage mentality. Tribal sovereignty is killing Indian people both literally and figuratively just look at the reservation homicide and suicide rates if you don't believe me. Troubles Howard movies like giving tribal leaders a license to steal from an abused Indian people. It needs to be changed. So your real concern is with tribal government, you say they have too much power. Would you also agree? There's too much secrecy involved with tribal government. Wish we cannot obtain audited financial statements from them. They can cause any meeting to us that they feel like they don't have to expend any rights to a son of the Bill of Rights. There's no separation of powers is known as judicial review. They just there's just no separation of anything now, they just have absolute control. If you can imagine the one body of government in the state having the body to make laws enforce the law and to judge the law of them. That's what we got and reservations. That's what you have in, Minnesota. So what you're saying, there is no guarantee the things that we enjoyed the some of the freedoms under the US Constitution the freedom of speech freedom of press guarantee of civil rights, you're saying that that doesn't always happen on a reservation because of tribal government the median under Casino Milacs and charged with trespass and let's turn that over to Jimmy you cannot stay here. Update the incidence of Mr. Lawrence's referring to was a meeting of the Minnesota Chippewa tribe. Not of the tribal government here at Milacs. It was held at the hotel at the Grand Casino Milacs the leaders of that meeting ass that'll be closed in that all people who weren't members of the the board of the Minnesota Chippewa tribe executive committee. I'll leave the meeting a reporter for Mr. Lawrence's newspaper refused to leave after being asked and he was taken into custody for trespass because he refused to leave when asked to leave until you feel you were within your rights to close the meeting. It wasn't Milacs the close the meeting it was a meeting of the Minnesota Chippewa tribe and the governing body for the Minnesota Chippewa tribe decided that Daddy needed to go into executive session and they closed the meeting and asked everyone to leave a reporter refused to leave after being asked and so he was arrested for trespassing. There was never any executive session at that meeting and he was arrested an hour and a half before the meeting even started our governments just as any other hand have Democratic processes and have elections to elect their leaders and so a while an individual Indian person may have the beliefs that mr. Lawrence does that all works itself out through a democratic process and people get to vote and elect their leadership and that's how it happened. So I didn't buy choices here at Milacs and other reservations to that Democratic process people voting made the decisions for the types of governments that they have in the leaders that they have. Mr. Lawrence your response to that. They control the courts you can virtually impossible to contesting election in winning against our tribal government. We have a Molex members complain to us all the time about the lack of rights. Are we written stories about it? We would ask mrs. You know who is a member of the Wisconsin band and also, mr. Muffler who is a member of Wisconsin band has his married to a hunter I should walk on them as you're against the Minnesota and ask why Milacs doesn't have more tribal members running their Affair either in other state or a running the Affairs at Milacs. Ask you this question. How many Indians agree with you? Are you the silent majority do represent the silent majority or is this an opinion that more people are coming around to how would you answer? Well, I would say more and more people are beginning to speak out before you people have been afraid because of the retaliation from tribal governments, they control things in a reservation from birth to death and because of this policy of governs contracts in self-determination, they have taken over virtually everything and I can tell you stories of people who run off Milacs I can tell you if you were fired me reservations and the denied jobs and housing denied all kinds of services in Opportunities and they just been afraid to speak out today. I'm getting calls fax email letters every day from Indian people all around the country with the same problems in the system got to change and it is changing already. And there's Court decisions right now that have come out to limiting travel government. They are the worst 7 cases before the US Supreme Court involving Minnesota cases that I think are going to make some more changes give you a chance to respond hear you again are the solicitor-general the Attorney General of the Mille Lacs band of Ojibwe in this reservation. Is this a police state most definitely not too obviously. Mr. Lawrence holds his his beliefs. As I said, I very strongly but everything gets sorted out to the Democratic process and to buy a Democrat Democratic process. It's the will of the people that ultimately governs and although mr. Lawrence has his viewpoints the majority of people have different viewpoints as expressed through the Democratic process through elections. It's hard to address specifics allegations because that's all they are allegations that we don't have specific details about the types of things that mr. Lawrence says is occurring, but I would like to address a cup. Misconceptions that he stated just very quickly first after our separation of powers forms of government for tribes including at Milacs malaxis had a separation of powers form of government since the early 1980s separate legislative executive and judicial branches. So providing that checks and balances exactly. We also have a tribal court that has the authority for judicial review of decisions made by the legislative and executive branches. So there are separation of powers forms of government. It's up to each individual tribal government to make the decision on what form of government is the best for them. But at Milacs as a sedimentary 1981 through separation of powers form of government and its work very well, although Henry, we don't have to look very far back in history to remember the corruption charges on the white Earth reservation the power takeovers on the Red Lake reservation. Certainly. These are things that have happened major problems with tribal governments. Would you respond to mr. Lawrence? That you talking about with respect to just Minnesota. I think he's his views are just extreme views and I doubt that there are a lot of people that would support it. I believe that the travel government continues to evolve in like any government is going to go through periods of pain and sorrow that will be also included periods of joy and happiness and it just seems to me that Tribes are working through those right now. They're trying to create these institutions even though yes, there are some constitutional problems with respect to attaining True separation of powers. I think tribal leadership fund most reservations is working very hard and inverter in good faith to create the institutions to have the processes that are in place work better more efficiently in Warfare, but I certainly do think that those of you that he has or just very very extreme and off off the record of Indian reservations in United States have historically been the poorest areas in the United States at the Mille Lacs reservation as recently as 1990. We had a 46% unemployment rate with that kind of lack of economic. Tiffany then worked a lot of resources to develop tribal government developed travel institutions when you go from having a reservation business committee, which is one small committee that has all the legislative executive and judicial power the separating that out Incorrect and reading three separate institutions. You're also going to require some money to fund those institutions in the things that they do in terms of development. For example of Tribal Law blacks in terms of reservations. The United States has a very well developed a set of tribal laws River Band statutes that actually published by West publishing the largest legal publishing the United States and it's easier to build the infrastructure with the money with the money. I'll give you one example, two of the the Ho-Chunk tribe Mary Jo Brooks is tribe in Wisconsin adopted a new constitution where they were they separated in the four branches of government and I was involved representing the president of that tribe. I'm about 2 years ago involving a struggle between the executive branch, which he was a member of and the legislative branch. And so even though you go forward and make those changes and create those separation of powers. They're still going to be that time. Of time in implementing those changes that will result in conflicts and hopefully, you know, you can resolve those conflicts within the message that were created also by the Constitution. We have John from Minnetonka on the phone good afternoon, sir on the conversation and but I did have a point to make that I thought I'd like to get some feedback on it it look here's to me that you really don't have any sovereignty at all. If you're paying taxes go for in government. You don't have any sovereignty. Government if the court you hope will help you are federal courts, you're not stopping from those federal courts. I think you should be I think I'm looking back at the history that I didn't learn in grammar. You were never really given sovereignty. It was never recognized by the federal government. If some of an Indian was on in the Indian territories moved over into the white man's land of the free white match line and committed some crime. They were they were punished there that was not true was not permitted. To me that's not talking to you guys. I wish you well and I wish you would get to the samedi issue. It's really your problem. If your sovereigns what happens on your reservations is not the federal government's business. You're not you a chance to respond to that will those the sovereignty of of tribes is real. It's recognized in the US Constitution as what has been talked about earlier this morning in effective the treaty-making process the US government entered in Dover 350 treaties with various Indian tribes, including blacks and the fact that the way the federal government chose to memorialize it's agreements with chives to the treaty process is a recognition of tribal sovereignty. That's the same way that the u.s. Government makes agreements with Mexico or Canada or other foreign Nations a treaty at its simplest form is a contract but it's a special type of contract is a contract between Sovereign governments. So the fact the government use the treaty-making process was a recognition of that 70 in terms of how that sovereignty interrelates with the federal government sovereignty in the state sovereignty. Unfortunately those Have been resolved by by the federal government itself particularly through the federal court system and what the federal courts have said is that tribes of sovereigns lie somewhere between the federal government and the state governments. So they have more sovereign powers within their territories done states do with an Indian Reservation, but less than the federal government the federal government as the one who makes the rules has has the ultimate sovereignty and they've decided that they can impose their laws on Indian tribes if they want to come putting in the area of Taxation. That's why individual Indian people are subject to Federal taxation, but I would like to make sure that that there is an understanding that individual Indian people do not have sovereignty and so he's he's got a He's there's a misconception there that he has nation has individuals who are living off state income taxes were living and working off the reservation my guess here today on the shore of Milacs Lake Henry Buffalo and Jim Genia. I'm Rachel reabe. This is a special Main Street program on tribal sovereignty. There are Indian reservations scattered across Minnesota. So those listening to us today probably live within a relatively short distance from an Indian Reservation when they drive in his you would come up to Milacs today. There would be no huge division on Highway 169. You would see a sign that you are entering onto the Indian Reservation. Many of us have so many questions about what does that mean? How does it actually play out now? I'm I was in the state of Minnesota. Now, I'm driving through a Sovereign Nation. What if I get stopped for speeding? What if I get stopped for DWI those sorts of things. Let's talk specifically about when non-indians come onto the reservation what applies to them in terms of criminal law. Do tribal criminal laws apply to non-indian to come within the reservation and the answer and again, it comes from a decision of the US Supreme Court is no the tribes cannot apply their criminal laws to nine Indians tribes can apply their criminal laws to all Indians within the reservation including tribal members and non-tribal members who are Indian members of other truck. Give me an example Jim of how Allah might be different for you or for me committed here on the reservation. Basically many of the tribal laws that apply to 822 Indian Peak. Are similar to the types of laws that you can see outside of reservations in the state of Minnesota. We have DWI laws laws against assault speeding those sorts of things. So the type of law that applies is is very similar, but who would applies to is very different depending upon whether it's an Indian or 9 and I'm a member of a tribe in Michigan Little Traverse band of Ottawa in Michigan. We ended up in st. Paul when I started 5th grade and because I'm an Indian personal though. I'm not a Milacs member the criminal laws of the Mille Lacs band such as laws against DWI would apply to yourself being an oddity in if you were on the reservation and violated from all such as assaulted somebody or or I were driving while intoxicated the tribe could not Appliance, laws against you only the state has jurisdiction. This dichotomy is from a 1953 federal law called the commonly referred to as public law 280 and was a part of the termination. Policies which mr. Buffalo spoke about a little while ago where the federal government had an official policy for a while of terminating tribes of doing away with them and trying to force them to assimilate but the Mille Lacs Tribal Police Force, which is funded by the reservation run by the reservation. They do have the power to stop me and enforce the laws of the state of Minnesota. Do they know it gets even more complicated as you said the general is the tribes don't have criminal jurisdiction over non-indians within the reservation at Milacs pursuant to a 1991 state law that we were successful in getting past our Tribal Police Department as long as we meet the requirements of any other police agency in the state and he sheriff's department or City Police Department. As long as we meet those requirements are Tribal Police Department are authorized to enforce state law against all Indians and that it is so if we use the blacks as an example again, if not even such as yourself for driving within the reservation and we're driving while intoxicated. Tribal Police couldn't stop you and arrest you and issue a citation, but that would be the state court not to try and you push that changed because of the huge influx of people coming here for the casino is that was the the primary factor was we've got a major State Highway running right through the reservation a lot of 90° traveling it. We were looking at the developing the casino and so we were hoping that they would be even more not eating coming to the area and not having criminal jurisdiction over crimes committed by 9 Innings when they was in the reservation is a very difficult situation in terms of providing law enforcement for the community here. So we were successful in getting that law passed it cover that Gap. Play finger. We have a question in the audience here at the Mille Lacs Indian museum is the local newspaper. It has the distinction of publishing probably more treaty rights articles editorials letters to the editor than any other paper around probably even a few more than Minnesota Public Radio, but a reporter Brett Larson is here and he's got a question. There's kind of a sticky issue that we've been dealing with in the newspaper and that local people are concerned about has to do with the original boundaries of the Mille Lacs reservation. The three townships on the South Shore of Milacs were included in the original boundaries and people are the Apparently over the years. The federal government has recognized those boundaries on the state of Minnesota hasn't and and currently the the federal government in implementing the heat one of the epa's programs has chosen not to give the state's power to implement a program in those Township. So a lot of people in those townships are kind of concerned that well to put it bluntly that someday they're going to be living on the Mille Lacs reservation. So my concern has a few parts and her my question, is it a few parts are there fear is well-founded? And then do you see this issue being resolved outside of a federal courtroom? And you see it being resolved anytime in the near future or is the Mille Lacs band in the state of Minnesota content to kind of live with things the way they are for the foreseeable future. Mr. Larson talk about that. There are differences between some not indians who live in the area of Milacs Lake belief here in the reservation is that if those people within the three townships do live within the Mille Lacs reservation, the federal government has recognized those boundaries have to remember that the treaty that created the Mille Lacs reservation. The 1855 treaty was a treaty between the band and the United States government so that the parties that actually entered into that treaty are in agreement on the boundaries of the reservation some nine Indians who live within the reservation may not like that. But that's that's the legal facts that are in place in terms of civil sorts of laws such as environmental regulation people who enter into a consensual relationships with reservations are subject to civil laws of a tribe such as a civil law that prohibits someone littering civil laws are treated differently than than criminalize under Public Law 280 in the grant of Criminal Justice that I gave two states. And so if you've got a lot of that that is similar nature one that somebody is not subject to jail time to but they may be subject to civil fine for those laws do apply to not even survive in the consensual relationships and we're seeing this here in Milacs buying up land buying up some resorts buying up some of the land on the shores of of Milacs will that by virtue of the After you bought it does it become tribal land or is that land the tribe owns that will forever be off the reservation and in terms of reservation land when most people think of reservations what they're actually thinking of is a type of land called trust land and it's called trust land because it's actually owned by the United States government, but held in trust for a particular Indian tribe or particular Indian person. The reason why it's held in trust goes back to some of the paternalistic ideas that the government had in the Bureau of Indian Affairs in particular has had about Indian people in their sophistication or lack of sophistication. And so the land that the band is buying a large part of it actually owns itself in fee at hasn't been put in trust. So if it's owned by the band and Fiat still subject to property Taxation and we're paying a lot of property taxes on that land because it hasn't been been put in trust that's a decision that the tribal government needs to make and what it wants to do with that land but there is an administrative process for putting in a trust but once you put it in in the trust the government U.s. Government owns it in there some restrictions on what you can do when if you can sell that land in the future, so it's kind of mixed bag. We have surely from The Fond du Lac reservation waiting patiently on the phone. Good afternoon. All right. This is Dale at Shirley's. I was sitting here one thing I wanted to point out real quick is Jim Genia if you were to speak out against Marge Anderson you if you and be able to vote or or have any civil rights on the reservation, if you want covered wrongdoing on the Mille Lacs reservation and you tried to speak about it. You would be barred from the reservation probably charged with trespassing kicked off the reservation. Another point. I cannot speak out and I have about things that I agree in and don't agree with just as any other person on the reservation has that right Dad would like to say we talked about that the black and has a very highly developed set of Applause. We also have a civil rights code that the band itself has adopted that protects free speech and those Hutterites Do you feel free to speak out? Do you feel that for the most part you talked about the two out of the 11 tribes in Minnesota. Do you think for the most part people can address their tribal government? They can criticize their tribal government without fear extreme view held by by certain people that you know, there's no opportunity to do this. My experience has been however, not not only here locally, but nationally that people do have the right to do what they do it and I think that's how tribal government gets changed is by people speaking out by identifying the problems that they see with the way governments operated or the way programs are operated and in many cases a lot of these people end up deciding that they are going to impact that system in the way. They impact that system is Run for office, they get elected and then they have their say through that process. I was just going to mention that here at Milacs. We're going through an election cycle right now, and we've got all sorts of candidates representing all sorts of views and that gets sorted out through the Democratic electoral process. So it's not a perfect system, but there would probably be a few people listening. They could say that the United States government is a perfect system either exactly you hear, you know, the Montana freemen or people down in in Oklahoma or down in Southern United States who don't like the government. I think you'll always find people who disagree with any idea and for some reason governments seem to bring out more a detractors than then just a lot of other things but that all sorts of out through a democratic process people have their input and if a majority of people agree with them and that Viewpoint will get represented in the government. We're out of time in this discussion on tribal sovereignty Henry Buffalo Jim genium. Thank you for being with us today. The special Main Street radio broadcast is a production of Minnesota Public Radio are Engineers today on location or Rick Hibbs in ski and Cliff Bentley. Randy Johnson is in St. Paul are producers Sarah Meyer executive producers Mel summer and Kate Smith film producer my finger. We'd like to thank Brenda Boyd and Betty keg with the Milacs oral history project and are hosted the Mille Lacs Indian museum. Joycelyn shingobee wait'll we invite you to visit the Main Street website go to www.mpr.org. You'll be able to hear this program as well as our entire series of reports and commentaries on treaty rights and tribal sovereignty the address again for the Main Street website is www.mpr.org. NPR's Main Street radio coverage of Royal issues is supported by the Blandon. Foundation committed to strengthening communities through grant-making leadership training and convening Minnesota public radio's Main Street radio team is Les finger. Damn Gunderson, Mark style Catherine winter and myself Rachel reabe. I'm Lorna Benson AIDS is the leading cause of death among Ugandan adults on the next All Things Considered will need a choir made up of their orphaned children. 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