A Mainstreet Radio special broadcast from Mille Lacs Indian Museum, highlighting Indian treaty rights and Native American sovereignty. Rachel Reabe interviews Don Wedll, Commissioner of Natural Resources for the Mill Lacs Band of Ojibwe; Doug Sam, tribal elder; and Henry Van Offelen, treaty biologist for the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources. Group discussion includes spearfishing topic and answering audience/listener questions.
Segment of program includes various taped oral history recollections from tribal members.
Read the Text Transcription of the Audio.
NPR's Main Street radio coverage of Royal issues is supported by the blandin foundation committed to strengthening communities through grant-making leadership training and convening. We invite you to visit the Main Street web decided www.mpr.org where today's broadcast will be available for later listening. You can also hear our series of reports and commentaries on treaty rights and tribal sovereignty and you were historic Lodge of native photographs from the Minnesota History Center the address again for the Main Street website www.mpr.org.Good morning, and welcome to a special Main Street radio show on treaty rights and tribal sovereignty. I'm Rachel reabe. We're broadcasting from the Mille Lacs Indian museum this morning located 2 hours north of the Twin Cities on the shore of Milacs Lake which we can see right out the window hear the huge Lake 14 miles wide 17 miles long is blue and beautiful today today. April 21st is actually the typical Iced Out day on Mille Lacs Lake, but in this unusual year the ice went out 10 days ago on April 11th.By now you've heard about the 1837 treaty the agreement between the US government and eight band of Ojibwe Indians, including the Mille Lacs. The treaty itself is short and plainspoken the Indians gave up or seated land. What would become 12 counties in East Central Minnesota plus part of Northwest Wisconsin in exchange the federal government provided the bands with cash. Tobacco farm implements blacksmith tools and the right to hunt and fish on the seat of territory for years the tribes did exactly that blacks was a great fishing like long before it became a tourist destination. The band's oral history project tape dozens of interviews with tribal Elders Ojibwe who remember the lake and their Traditions as they used to beSchools of fish with most of the shore when I was a young fella, you just took what you wanted. You didn't have to sit there all day like you do now and you're lucky to get one fish. each other out They would not go hungry. As long as there was rabbits and fish and deer. It was a lot of fish done. Like when we were at Mary Beach, it'll show Sandy their man. The Norton's would be dead long 4 feet long time. We lived out here by the lake. They were fishing early in the spring the Indians. Sometimes ice would still be on the shore. There was a lot of fish. They always fish Indian they always fish or they had ways they survived years ago, you know, it wasn't no laws for Hunting Fishing. Nothing like that Indians. Got a lot of good. Almost eight years ago the Mille Lacs band filed suit against the state of Minnesota. Hoping to win back their treaty rights after a long contentious fight. The 1837 treaty was upheld in federal court this spring the Ojibwe are once again, netting and spearing walleye on lakes in the seat of territory including Milacs Lake Welcome to our program our phone number today one 800-537-5252. If you would like to call with your comment or question phone number one 800-537-5252 joining me today at the Mille Lacs Indian museum or donwiddle Commissioner of Natural Resources for the Mille Lacs band of Ojibwe and tribal Elder Doug Sam. Good morning gentleman, you you told me that you are the fourth generation of Ojibwe living on this leg, your great-grandparents your grandparents your parents lived here. You grew up here fishing in these Waters this spring for the first time in a very long time. You were back out on Mille Lacs Lake with a net going after fish. How did that feel a great without outside restriction and was great fishing out there. Tell me a little bit about that. Your netting experience is so far this year to go out in a powerboat gone, and I'm fishing. I have a 50 foot net. Tell me once you get out there with the net how far offshore were you fishing for? Those people who don't understand this whole process laid out a little bit for so they understand what we talk about when we say netting fish 100 feet from the shore. Imagine rockline probably about 10 ft water. What time did you go out to dinner? So you leave the Nets in the lake overnight? You leave come back about twelve hours later kind of exciting to come back and wonder what's in the net Springfield and fish in it. lot of walleyes so you put the net in the bottom of the boat came back to Shore and then pulled the fish out of the nest. What do you do with the fish when you do with the fish? You told me you got 25 fish Maybe? And their reaction to getting this fresh walleye for Milacs Lake. Was it like when you were a kid living on this Lake? What were the tell me a little bit about the fishing than the fishing you did with your dad in hundred feet off the shore. I don't know if it was. It was just I think in the agreement that we had and all the fish were known days were in the fall or two little bees. We got hundreds hundreds where we smoke. Get tired of fish during the winter will smoke. You always crave for the fresh fish in the spring. You fished for what your family needed. Tell the story you told me about coming home with that big fish. And your Dad's reaction was a little boy was riding my bike and I seen I went up and bar the Spirit come back and spirit. Had a terrible time getting him out. I finally got him out close to the road and I took the spear back where Bart. I come back. What am I black heels are you know why you're dragging us coming down the road and I got it home. My dad says what are you going to do with that fish? We're going to eat them all that. If I told you to get a smaller fish not that size. He didn't want the part that you dragged him on the gravel. So the point wasn't to harvest the entire Lake fish. During these past number of years. As you have seen the the rights to fish in the Lake Road in this is actually been in your growing-up years. Did you just stop fishing or did you go out on a lunch with the rest of the tour is here and try to fish every once in awhile to get some walleye. Define that to me when you say well, yeah, I go out Sportfishing it. How does that differ from what you've talked about just now? Which way do you prefer doing it? well for breeding purpose well, and that's okay. But if you want to have fun and you both cross-culture eyes are Denver this morning at Milacs one 800-537-5252 and you really have the right to net fish as you've already talked about today and also Spearfish spearing fish netting fish, which is more difficult. probably in any because when you pull the fishing at a point in London other than that, then you can see my hands are full of cuts and bruises and so netting is a more difficult cuz you're pulling all the fish out of the net worth of us. Just pick it up before you told me spearing happens at night. So what happens you go on the boat? I think size is hard to figure in them in the water because of the regulation then. There's only certain size officially have to get over a certain size. Let's talk about spearing and netting are they both equally popular a different times of year, or is it just something that you're used to what you might go for? I think it varies from tribe to try one of the things that in Wisconsin. We saw that drives tended to spear black people tended to be more netters that they that use Nets and tended to use Nets now and prefer Nets. I think the spearing Mets are proficient method of a fishing. I think the satistics that we'll talk about later about sizes and numbers efficient sex of fish that have been harvested indicate that you can be real selective with netting in them. That was really the goal of the Bands Department of Natural Resources in the state to try to selectively fish spearing. It's a little more difficult to have you have to judge the size of the fish when you're dealing with something stuffed in the water in the boat the coordination to do that and trying to figure out on the Fly whether that's a 15in Fisher not would be very difficult. What does it mean when we hear the term ceremonial fish we want to harvest the lake as part of the ceremony the ceremonial Harvest. What does that actually mean their number of types of Ceremonies that involve fish General the tribe them through its religious activities and culture has various things that it if uses fish for and a percentage of these fish that are being harvested are used in those types of Ceremonies in one of those is to give thanks for living through the winter and the Creator providing new fresh food for everyone in the spring and those are things that the tribe has done years and years before the implementation of treaty rights. It was very difficult to get fish to to do these types of Ceremonies are Feasts. To indicate that there is giving thanks for surviving the winter in the Creator's support of new Fresh Foods for everyone for the summer. Doug when you took those fish out of the net the first time that you have netted in this leg for years and years and years and you told me you presented some to your dad and you gave some to the tribal Elders that would not be able to get out and fish themselves was there a sense of ceremony in that or of them accepting that not just as G. Thanks for the fish dinner, but it sends thank you for giving this back it's expected to you. Anyway, and one thing I forgot to tell you before we put them back up in the great spirit. forgive me in Spanish and and your netting experiences spring included all those things. When treaty rights were restored. It wasn't exactly back to the way it used to be. It wasn't Doug wasn't like you used to fish with your dad. 50 years ago because people were watching you your fish were weighed. They were measured they were sext. They were recorded. There was a lot of there was a lot more to do than just pick the fish out of the net and go home a little inconvenience. This is a victory now that we get to count these fish and spend this time at the Landing having these gone over and over and over. I think there are some feelings about the fish and how the Harvest is being done. But the band is also very committed to making sure that the Harvest of tribal members is is well-documented and the fundamental issue about fish populations is to know how many are being harvested have good numbers on that than the tribe is very committed to doing that then in general one tribal members believe that it's a good practice to make this work because you have no more interest in fishing out this Lake than anybody does that's correct. The van wants to have fish there always wants to have fish there and will do everything possible to make sure that the fish population is sustained and increases Ethan. We have Richard from St.Paul on the phone with this. Good morning, sir. Go ahead with your question that we white people stole the land from them and force them in the trees. Now your Jubilee are not native to this region. They come from Canada and they were able to pull her out of the reading Aaron now because you had on guns and they had a narrow now, I don't feel I've never read where the Ojibwa ever created the Dakota Indians were taking their land away from them. What do you feel about that? How would you respond to that are done and we were never, I mean reimburse for airline either. I think that there is that misconception that there was not an understanding between the Ojibwe or Chippewa are the Sioux and the Dakota people and that's that is incorrect and 1825. There was a treaty between what was then called the Great Chippewa nation and the great Sioux Nation and that treaty Define whose territory was which how that was all going to work and that's well-documented and law and the issues that some people like to project that some compensation do or think they would have to go back to those agreements ends and show that that was done and the tribes that agreed to it in 1825 morning is one 800-537-5252. If you have a question or comment, feel free to call us done wait till this was an eight-year fight. How expensive of a fight was it how much money did the tribe have to raise to fight this thing through for 8 years will initially this action was started in the early 80s and one of the fundamental concerns of the band was making sure that it had adequate resources to litigate this issue and so far from 1982 to 1991 of the things that the band tried to do was develop a fun that would enable the band to see through the litigation of this issue. We anticipated it would cost about somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 of a million dollars to do this litigation. We had raised that money over that period of time and Then in August of 90 we filed the case actually the case cost us about a million and almost 2 million dollars to litigate and could have done it without the money coming in from the casino whether or not we were going to do this litigation, although they simultaneously happened there really was not the need or we had already secured enough Revenue sources that we could have litigated this issue absent the casino at all eight years almost 2 million dollars. Has it been worth it or I think definitely it has there. There's many many issues in regards to how the treaty Rights was perceived by tribal members how they will use an Implement these treaty rights as far as nutrition using him for food and ceremonial uses that will help strengthen their culture and religious activities plus just affirmation that they were not wrong that your parents tribal parents were telling their children with these are rights that the band has and many times people would be arrested because nobody would believe them and really the Vindication of of you know, the the understanding of the tribal elders and parents and grandparents had about these agreements and how they weren't being fulfilled and the necessity of having to go to court to make Is finalized in the complete. Let's talk about how many Indians are exercising their rights. We have one here Doug said he's been out in the boat with his net. Do you have any idea just give me a rough figured on how many people do you think so far this year have exercise their rights under the 1837 treaty had probably 50 or 60 people who applied and went out. It's difficult to get a good number on that because sometimes three or four people we'll go together to set one that you know, then they'll share the fish amongst themselves, but yet only one permit is required. So you you may have more people than the actual number permits that benefited from this activity would have predicted if I'd asked you a year ago. How many would go out? I think we'll see an increase over the next couple of years as people earn it where I am in terms of learning how the net or spear. That's correct. My kids wouldn't have no idea how to get them back at the my grandson out at night to be able to teach him. Don't know. There are other people in this reservation who say our rights have been restored under the 1837 treaty and I'm not going to get a permit. So far that hasn't been the case, although we have them last two days. Kind of suspended activities Del. We re-evaluate to see where we are. We've had some people who fished more than other people. We have want to spread it around because you have a finite number of fish that you're taking out of this like this year and we want to preserve some of that quota so that tribal members will be able to get fish throughout the summer and then the fall and also some winter fishing. So if they choose to have some fresh fish later on in the season so you can do that. And so part of our job in the department is to make sure that there will be adequate fish for all the members throughout the season then them We're working on that and dealing with that. We have John from Bemidji on the phone. Good morning. Go ahead with your question or comment. I know that the Red Lake band north of the veggie. He has pretty much collapsed The Fishery and in lower Red Lake and more than half of upper Red Lake. It's due to their own regulated over Harvest of the lake for commercial fishing. Is there going to be a commercial fishing on Mille Lacs? And the second part of my question is when you do when are white people going to be finished with the guilt trip to Native American people and what would it take to get to be done? I realized that things happened years ago that were incorrect. I'm kind and improper will to the Native Americans the blacks in the Japanese for that matter, but we need to get on with things. We've given people a ancient treaty rights. Casinos primitive action, when will we all be One race of human beings and move on. I'm going to respond to that. Yes, I think you know in general We Are One race there are agreements out there that the sific Lee Define different things for different people in this particular case. There's agreement allows tribal members to hunt and fish and I don't think that that's any kind of a guilt trip. Maybe if there's any guilt to before it's that no one is apologize for infringing upon the tribal right to hunt fish over the last 50 years. Usually when people take something that don't belong to them they acknowledge that somehow the question about red. Like this is a question that has come up quite a few times in the eight-year battle people say remember what happened in Red Lake and again, that was also one of the top walleye Fisheries in the state of Minnesota and now it's true what he says it is almost fished out. I think one of the things that people need to understand is it red Lake tribal government to stop the fishery up there which has really impacted their Community somewhere between eight to ten million dollars in Revenue has been taken out of this community which does not have huge economic potentials. One of the things and concerns is that has Fisheries fish numbers decline of the effects on the economy. And I think that's one example, there's there's many many players in the in the involvement with the fishery at red light on the Bureau of Indian Affairs has the overriding obligation to ensure the enforcement protection of that resource. Those things have not quite worked out the way that they should have there are some environmental conditions up there as far as water levels that hurt the spawning walleye. So there are number of things that involve with the area of commercial fishing on red light red. Mike is the soul regulator manager in the sense of harvesting fish from lower Red Lake and that is a problem. They're dealing with interface with and there's it's a very complex tissue from the standpoint of harvest. The thing that everyone has to do is understand the fishery. They have to understand the numbers of fish that are being harvested. One of the things that the tribe is done is developed a very very intense and highly regulated fishery much more than you know, the general fisheries and as a result, we will mail the tribal Harvest and everyone needs to abide by the rules and regulations out there to ensure that harvests and the correct numbers Fish can be counted monitor will be back with the special edition of Main Street radio live from the shore of Mille Lacs Lake and Central Minnesota right after this NPR's Main Street radio coverage of Royal issues is supported by the blandin foundation committed to strengthening communities through grant-making leadership training and convening are Statewide forecast. You can expect mostly sunny skies across Minnesota today with highs in the sixties clear skies with temperatures in the thirties tonight and for tomorrow, mostly sunny again and warmer tomorrow in Minnesota highs in the mid-60s and the lower 70s right now in the Twin Cities. We have 56°. Good morning. I'm Rachel Redeemer broadcasting live from the Minnesota historical society's Mille Lacs Indian museum exhibits tell the story of the Ojibwe Indians who settled here on the shores of Milacs Lake in the mid-1700s. We're continuing our conversation on the 1837 treaty and how it's going to affect Minnesota's most popular while I like my guests on wait'll Commissioner of Natural Resources for the Mille Lacs Ojibwe and try Elder Doug Sam joining the conversation now is Henry van oflin treaty biologist for the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources. Good morning Henry. Welcome to the show. Our phone lines are open for your questions and comments one 800-537-5252. We have Pierre on the phone from Minneapolis. Good morning question comment regarding treaty rights. Not not so much local as how I understand native from this area are recognized by indigenous peoples internationally as highly sophisticated in their understanding of these rights and then leadership demonstrating leadership at an international level, particularly the UN United Nations people's organization. My question has to do with how how this how we recognize this sophistication for this relationship to land and the decision about property rights is about how native peoples demonstrate leadership and use of land and how we all need to respect that and we don't well enough and as a society has been so this is like our common property and these people know how to use it. Well and and we deserve we should they deserve Ira our attention to learn how to do it. So it's not about right. It's about It's about the teaching of ways of good ways. And I'll very hard to cooperate incorporate Traditional Values of the tribe into modern contemporary types of activities of management in these resources. As we've said this is the first spring that Indians are spearing and netting fish on Mille Lacs Lake in many many years Henry from your position is treaty biologist with the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources. Explain to me how that's going to affect the fish population the call came in already today talking about Red Lake, which is everybody's worst nightmare come true that somehow we will drain this huge leg of walleye. How is it going to affect it? Well, it's very true. The blacks is a world-class walleye fishery and given the management to protocols and assessment work that we do there is absolutely no reason to believe that it won't continue to be a world-class walleye fishery even with a small amount of and harvest like we're seeing this year. Explain to me what the average amount of while I have me while I do we take out of this Lake in a year and the average amount of pounds of fish taken out of here by Anglers over those years and evidence before that is about 450000 lb of fish. And the Indians under their first harvest will take how much the bands have been allocated 40,000 lb underneath their fisheries management plan. So a less than one-tenth of the typical average now this year the population isn't at the 450,000 pollen level. so they're taking less than Yeah, they're 10% of them that you just came up with and thought this is a good place to start looked at. What was being harvested in Wisconsin. That was really the only place that we had some good numbers about how his tribe's implemented the reaffirm treaty right that you could measure what was happening. And so through the calculations of what was harvested their what might be more efficient at Milacs. We tried to pick a number basically the plan is designed to try to determine what the tribal need is going to be. That's why the plan is designed over 5 years and increments that'll increase if the tribal need increases so it's not necessarily that you are going to be taking out a hundred thousand pounds of walleye in five years are in 4 years. It's you will determine that year by year. And then we will look at you know the need for the tribe locations of fish all those types of things. Continuing with the 5-year management plant and I was going to add the right now. Our estimate is that there's about 1.2 or 1.3 million pounds of Walleye out the lake. So we figured what what is it a good harvest for this year based on all the science is about 260000 lb total. And Henry we talked about the ice has only been out for 10 days on Milacs and the tribe already is coming to their upper limit of of what their hardest even very quickly 40,000 fish for 60 fisherman. And as they have been after ice-out they're able to catch quite a few fish in a short. Of time. That's not exactly 40,000 fish for 60 people fish in Milacs gets half of those so Milacs gets twenty thousand pounds the other twenty thousand pounds gets divided up amongst the other seven tribes. And so they're looking at 2080 2,800 lb of fish somewhere in that so those numbers get pretty small pretty quickly. So we're not talking about Begin to mail to fish. Thanks for the clarification. We have George from northern, Minnesota on the phone. Good morning. Hi buddy, have, but question also and as I must confused as the Treaty of 1837 specify that in this day 1998, we can use modern technology to harvest seeds and spear Arnett fish and I'm I'm kind of concerned that I'm seeing here all halogen lights on the heads up. Nice quiet electric motors 7 prong Spears. This is not the technology of 1837. I wonder how that extrapolated from 1837 to the modern time. Anyway, when I feel that these two that have things changed, I know Doug Tong for when I'm here. He remembers going out with the with a birch torch to try to locate the fish when he used to spear as a young boy with his dad. This guy. I was talking about halogen lights and certainly things have changed the past hundred or so years. Definitely things have changed. There are many modifications to how tribal members can fish. All these things can occur. But the courts in the courts of continually affirm that tribes can use modern adaptations of traditional methods and use of a halogen light vs. A birch-bark toward which is just a modern adaptation of traditional methods gillnets those types of things from a twine net to a monofilament net. Those are modern adaptations of traditional methods. We all recognize that there is changes in technology in those things are there. Department of Natural Resources have any problem with that Henry Harvest here is being conducted under a pretty rigorous code. We've got folks out there monitoring the Harvest the bands have folks out there monitoring the Harvest and whether the fish is taken with a halogen beam or not, you know, it's being recorded and we're keeping track these fish have never received so much attention in Milacs the fishing Mille Lacs of received a lot of attention over the years from us. And of course from Anglers Witcher only, you know, the Twin Cities is only 2 hours from here on Milacs has really been a fishing lake. That's what it's known for and that's what it should continue to be. We have Rich from Minneapolis on the phone. Good morning. I believe my question is being answered as we speak, but I'm wondering your specific method by which you do monitor the Harvest. I'm in general netting or spearing requires a daily permit after identify the landing that they're going to leave from or or return to there has to be a crew there that will monitor the catch can be biologist and or game wardens and usually it's both and that's it. That's all done on a daily basis and inform our perspective. We've had. Conservation officers and DNR Fisheries folks out at certainly every spearing permit that's been issued just about and also virtually every time and that's been lifted. Someone someone has been around observing watching and keeping track Army of game wardens that are now spending their days and nights on Milacs Lake. Where do you come up with the people to do all this? Well our Fisheries staff as you know, we we do have other activities, which we are normally involved in the spring. We just tried to make a go of it with transferring some of those phone. Still working more evenings and and the the enforcement folks really would be better at answering what enforcement is done. But what I've seen is mostly local wardens out at the accesses. Our phone number here is one 800-537-5252 for your questions and comments. This is a special Main Street program. We are talking about treaty rights this our next hour. We will turn our attention to tribal sovereignty. We are broadcasting from the Mille Lacs Indian museum where we can see if Milacs Lake stretched out right through the glass window. And again we talked about it is open today. The sun is sparkling on it and it looks like a beautiful place to fish. We have an audience with us here at the Museum life hangers in the audience with a question. Hello, Vince Murrell is part of the audience here today. He is a Mille Lacs band member. He also works here at the Museum. So we didn't have any extra distance to come and he's got a question for John Weddle the natural resources commissioner the band. I mean. Mine is this is one simple question and it kind of has to do with that the fishing and I was wondering how that whole lot of people felt about the people that actually do traditional fishing that go out and harvest for ceremonies and different activities like that. And you know, I personally feel that you know, if I go out fishing for an elder that I'm going out on the orders of an elder not having to go out and get a permit than be regulated by anybody that for DNR so far if you know, you know years ago when I asked gives me 1 Elders asked the younger men to go out and get fish in that, you know, that was the that was the only kind of law that that I pretend pertain to Yes, that's very good comment. In the sense that that's how traditionally tribal members fish that there was a very keen respect for the resource in those types of things today things have changed as a person talked about, you know, using traditional methods to harvest versus modern-day methods. There is also the restrictions on the tribal side from from the ability of how tribal members used to do it and would like to continue to do that versus how we need to regulate the fishery because of the high use of the fishery and because of various implications of the courts have to find that make it easier to go get a permit or do you still think no For myself, you know what? I feel like going out and getting a permit and you know, having a bunch of people from the DNR stand around and caught my fish and and and that we doing that to me kind of kind of hurts my pride a little more than you know, having my grandmother go and say hey, would you please go out and get us some fish? We're having a ceremony next week and not having somebody there called my fish and touching my fish, you know, and I'm doing that kind of stuff to me, you know where an elder that I respect comes and asked me to do something, you know, it's not secretive or anything, but ask me to do it. Like in the olden days, you don't like a lot of Elders can't go out and hunt and fish for themselves. So they asked us younger people to go out and get their fish. Are there deer or whatever anal and You know why? I personally feel that you know, somebody coming to me and saying hey man, what a look at your fish, you know was a more embarrassment to me and going to tell me all those while they counted all the fish. You know, I mean, I know it's some wouldn't mind getting a fish that way but just me personally, you know, that's the way I feel I was brought up that way. You don't want an elder said to go get something you went out and got it no matter if it was Treaty or not? And what is that what it does to me? Because that's the way that's the way I was brought up and that's the way I want to bring up my children. You know, I don't want to have my son say you don't dad you want you know when I'm when I get older and say you want to get me to go out and get some fish and then he's got to go through the whole process of getting a permit and then being regulated that way since you're not that old you probably never been able to legally net or spare on this Lake have you for your whole growing-up years? I've gotten caught before and that was you know, what I was getting for a Paul Wall and stuff like that and then I went and got a permit and stuff and then when I got caught up showing him the permit and it didn't hold water salt. You know, I was doing it for the elders and I wasn't doing it for my own personal gain. So it's likely that you will continue to do it. That way you'll net and you'll spare but you'll be looking over your shoulder. But I do ask Don for a permit you don't but that's for ceremonial purposes. You know, if I went out and you know when adding for my own personal gain, I don't go out, you know, I just do it because you know, it was a way of life for me when I grew up, you know when my grandfather and grandmother asked me to go out and get some fish and I didn't question anything in or I didn't seek out the DNR and say I'd like to come out and get some fish. I just went down is it hard to convince your people? Here's the hundred 11-page manual read it digested in and follow it had if you had a cell job with your own people here Concepts in cultural use of resources that it made it very difficult to find a balance in this issue. And then the tribe has tried very hard to find kind of the least restrictive. Methods so that tribal members can Harvest and access these these resources. I think one thing that's important is the question about legally harvesting fish tribal members, you know, this is what this court case was all about that they really did have the legal right. The Harvest fish at just that they were being denied that legal, right? We have Kim from Minneapolis on the phone. Go ahead with your question. I guess I just wanted to come in first on the positive relationship. It sounds like the states and the Mille Lacs band has and I think that communication and is really great. And I just wanted to come in and that I also wanted to come in a previous caller ID when he was speaking of the special treatment. When is that going to be over with mentions other minority group and I think maybe a portion of his ignorance is not understanding the difference between Native American and European American philosophy and maybe if your guests could speak it at a little bit in for example, the treatment of the Earth view of the land and in Just Fishing as compared to our European American Sportsman and I'll hang up and listen. Thank you and Susan in the beliefs and fundamental concepts of how tribal people view the resource and how traditional Sports person looks at the resource in that way. It's utilized in the Play the resources been developed over the years. I'm I'm not opposed to the way the state has developed these the resource and that's fine for how the state has done that it's just people have to acknowledge in in it and see that the tribe has a different way to use those resources and will continue to implement the from a tribal perspective how it'll use its share of the resource Peter from The White Earth reservation is on the phone. Good morning. Good morning from some folks out there and it's pretty obvious to tell that they still resent the fact that the folks down. There are using their rights granted by treaty and I'd be curious. There's been a lot of talk so far on how the Indians are regulated in how their looked at and how their assets when they come off the lake Epicurious. They're spending an awful lot of resources on that. Are they spending as many resources? To watch the other Anglers who supposedly have a right to those fish. Are they watching them as closely? I'm going to stand by and listen to comment. Question Doug talked about every fish was handled weight measured sex identify classified written down. What about the 90% of the fish out of this like that are going to be taken by sport fisherman when fishing opens up in may we are and have been keeping track of our angler Harvest since the early 80s on an annual basis in the summer in the winter. We've got the Wii is a survey an angler survey and we were able to make pretty good predictions or estimates of the number of fish harvested. That's where we get numbers. Like the average is 450000 lb in the Precision that we have on our estimate is about plus or minus 12% right now, so you're not going over not handling each of those fish obviously to come out of the lake. It's more of their rules and regulations famous following you spot check to make sure they do every day of the week is out there counting boats and interviewing Anglers. No, How many fish saying average boat is catching we expand those numbers out to get a total estimate for the day adding those by in by the week by the month. So we get the total Harvest for the year Jack from Erhard, Minnesota on the phone with us. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. I just wanted to comment on the on the regulations What I Hear in these comments are regulations that are arising or the Western Society. These are foreign regulations that are based on fundamental management principles that we operate by in the western world. It has been perceived that American Indian people did not have a civilization. They did not have any rules and principles and how they regulate their resources. Well, that's one of the problems that we have. We have always been perceived as being uncivilized and unable to manage our own resources. We always had management and it was based on some very fundamental principles that our governing the relationship of all life and we call those days. We want to call him Prime directors Are there natural laws? A naturalized listed that we have a very intimate relationship with all life and including the fish. One of the problems that we have today is because American Indian people I'd large are culturally bankrupt. They don't have the kind of respect that they had with these species. Once how many years ago and still we've taken 2 mentality from the Western world. I mean proceeding with things that we can count in terms of the crude materialistic for until we try to regulate that intern. So in the end I process what do we what do we have in in when we talk about tradition? We're talking about each individual. Making part that part of your daily life when their kid daily religion. Hayward question of it's a perception question. It's a different way of looking at things clearly the tribal perspective of the use of the resources is different than the General Estate perspective or tourism economic system that has been developed over the use of those resources. And one of the things that we've tried very hard to do is to match the things that are from the science of those types of things that we have to deal with the numbers of fish being harvested and the cultural needs and issues at the try passing. So Vince said, it would be difficult for him to take the fish that he gathered for ceremonial Harvest and have them touched and weighed and measured for you you would do that because you would realize that's what needed to be done to protect the Harvest access to these these resources and absent that we would not have access to those resources and Hance. It's important. We have some of these things that have to occur does this attitude make your life easier Henry. It certainly does a lot of regulations that band members need to follow and we can track Harvest and the bottom line is we need to track Harvest. We need to track how many fish are out there in order to ensure that the great fishing continues. Been surprised at the almost lack of controversy. We all followed what happened in Wisconsin and number of years ago with the crowds in the shouting in the violence that we saw in Wisconsin the Minnesota Legislature year-ago appropriated a huge amount of money to make sure there wasn't that kind of violence when it happened this year in our state and yet Henry have there been incidents that we just haven't heard about or is it been almost? I think things have been been very calm things have been running pretty smoothly and I hope that continues I think it's a credit to the Sportsman of Minnesota that this is how things have gone. Yes, I see it too is also that the sheriff's in and have done an excellent job of communicating with people of making people understand the relationship here that's been a firm through the court system and the implementation of these things and that it's it's it's really a good feeling to see that many many people have learned that this can occur that can occur in a reasonable manner that it's not just kind of a wholesale type of thing out there and that everyone is watching and making sure that this comes off very efficient and and well-managed activity. So when you looked ahead and thought about this time Is this how it should happen is this is this the best case scenario that we're seeing on Milacs and we talked about the Harvest is almost completed. So we're not talk about G what could happen tonight or what could happen tomorrow? We come through it almost right? I do think that it's it's been a very good scenario as to how this could be implemented. The fear of the sky falling in is dissipated. We devoted a lot of energy over the last 10 years to try to make sure that people understood that there was appropriate information out there that people could access so that they could understand about how these things would be implemented and tried to assure people that this is a very highly managed and regulated fishery and this is a continuing conversation as we've talked and things are being monitored. So things can be continuously adjusted. We're halfway through the special Main Street radio show coming to you live from the blacks Indian museum on the shore of Milacs Lake. My guests have been done. Well natural resources commissioner for the band tribal Elder Doug Sam and Henry Van Alstyne treaty biologist for the Department of Natural Resources. Thank you gentlemen for being with us. We spent the first hour of our show talking about treaty rights agreements between two Sovereign nations. In this case the US government and their jib way Indians next hour. We're going to talk more about tribal sovereignty the right of Indians to govern themselves and control their own Affairs. It's all ahead as we continue this live Main Street radio broadcast from the blacks Indian reservation after the news. Minnesota Public Radio and the Jungle Theater invite you to Holocaust witness Thursday evening at 7 at the Fitzgerald theater in st. Paul for tickets and information on discounts call. 612-290-1221. You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. It's 56° a can of w FM 91.1 Minneapolis-Saint Paul Twin Cities weather for today calls for sunny skies warm temperatures a high of 65 degrees clear skies tonight, sunny and warmer tomorrow.
Transcripts
text | pdf |
RACHEL REABE: MPR's Main Street radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the Blandin Foundation, committed to strengthening communities through grant making, leadership training and convening.
We invite you to visit the Main Street website at www.mpr.org, where today's broadcast will be available for later listening. You can also hear our series of reports and commentaries on treaty rights and tribal sovereignty and view a historic collage of Native photographs from the Minnesota History Center. The address again for the Main Street website, www.mpr.org.
Good morning, and welcome to a special Main Street radio show on treaty rights and tribal sovereignty. I'm Rachel Reabe. We're broadcasting from the Mille Lacs Indian Museum this morning, located two hours North of the Twin Cities on the shore of Mille Lacs lake, which we can see right out the window here. The huge lake, 14 miles wide, 17 miles long, is blue and beautiful today. Today, April 21st, is actually the typical ice out day on Mille Lacs lake, but in this unusual year, the ice went out 10 days ago on April 11th.
By now, you've heard about the 1837 Treaty, the agreement between the US government and eight bands of Ojibwe Indians, including the Mille Lacs. The treaty itself is short and plain spoken. The Indians gave up or ceded land, what would become 12 counties in East Central Minnesota, plus part of Northwest Wisconsin. In exchange, the federal government provided the bands with cash, Tobacco, farm implements, blacksmith tools, and the right to hunt and fish on the ceded territory.
For years, the tribes did exactly that. Mille Lacs was a great fishing lake long before it became a tourist destination. The band's Oral History taped dozens of interviews with tribal elders, Ojibwe who remember the lake and their traditions as they used to be.
SPEAKER 1: Schools of fish would come up to the shore, when I was a young fella. You just took what you wanted. You didn't have to sit there all day like you do now and you're lucky to get one fish.
SPEAKER 2: No one ever got hungry. They helped each other out, the Indians. They would not go hungry as long as there was rabbits and fish and deer.
SPEAKER 3: There was a lot of fish then, like when we were at Murray beach. It was shallow, sandy there.
SPEAKER 4: And the Nortons would be that long, four feet long.
SPEAKER 2: One time we lived out here by the lake. They were fishing early in the spring, the Indians. Sometimes the ice would still be on the shore. There was a lot of fish.
SPEAKER 3: They always fish. The Indians, they always fish.
SPEAKER 4: They had ways they survived. Years ago, there was no laws for hunting, fishing, nothing like that. Indians got along good.
RACHEL REABE: Almost eight years ago, the Mille Lacs Band filed suit against the state of Minnesota, hoping to win back their treaty rights. After a long, contentious fight, the 1837 Treaty was upheld in federal court. This spring, the Ojibwe are once again netting and spearing walleye on lakes in the ceded territory, including Mille Lacs lake.
Welcome to our program. Our phone number today, 1-800-537-5252. If you would like to call with your comment or question, phone number, 1-800-537-5252. Joining me today at the Mille Lacs Indian Museum are Don Waddell, Commissioner of Natural Resources for the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe, and Tribal Elder, Doug Sam. Good morning, gentlemen.
DON WADDELL: Good morning.
DOUG SAM: Good morning.
RACHEL REABE: Doug Sam, let's start with you. You told me that you are the fourth generation of Ojibwe living on this lake. Your great grandparents, your grandparents, your parents lived here. You grew up here fishing in these waters. This spring, for the first time in a very long time, you were back out on Mille Lacs lake with a net going after fish. How did that feel?
DOUG SAM: It felt great. Without outside restriction, it was great fishing out there.
RACHEL REABE: Tell me a little bit about your netting experiences so far this year. Do you go out in a powerboat, go out in a fishing boat?
DOUG SAM: No, we went out in a canoe. And I had a 50 foot net.
RACHEL REABE: Tell me, once you get out there with the net, how far offshore were you fishing? For those people who don't understand this whole process, lay it out a little bit for us, so they understand what we talk about when we say netting fish.
DOUG SAM: Well, we went out about hundred feet from the shore, from the edge of the rock line, so probably about 10 feet of water.
RACHEL REABE: What time did you go out?
DOUG SAM: We went out at about 7:00 in the evening and picked up the nets in the designated area set by the DNR.
RACHEL REABE: So you leave the nets in the lake overnight. You leave. Come back about 12 hours later.
DOUG SAM: Correct.
RACHEL REABE: Kind of exciting to come back and wonder what's in the net?
DOUG SAM: Well, yeah, a little surprising to see all that fish.
RACHEL REABE: Let's talk about-- you pulled up the net and what was in it?
DOUG SAM: Walleyes.
RACHEL REABE: A lot of walleyes.
DOUG SAM: A lot of walleyes. Maybe one or two northerns.
RACHEL REABE: So you put the net in the bottom of the boat, came back to shore, and then pulled the fish out of the net?
DOUG SAM: Right.
RACHEL REABE: What do you do with the fish? What did you do with the fish? You told me you got 25 fish, maybe.
DOUG SAM: Well, what we did was we laid them, cleaned them all, and give them all to elders and certain people that where out there.
RACHEL REABE: And their reaction to getting this fresh walleye from Lacs lake?
DOUG SAM: Well, that's what everybody's waiting for, and they're very glad to get them.
RACHEL REABE: What was it like when you were a kid living on this lake? What were the-- tell me a little bit about the fishing then, the fishing you did with your dad.
DOUG SAM: Well, in them days, we always had maybe unwritten agreement that the tribes had 100 feet off the shore. I don't know if it was-- it was just, I think, an agreement that we had. And all we fished for in them days in the fall were twillerbees and we got hundreds.
RACHEL REABE: And what did you do with all those fish?
DOUG SAM: Well, we smoked them and we salted barrels as well. That was our diet for the winter.
RACHEL REABE: Do you get tired of fish during the winter?
DOUG SAM: Well, smoked fish, but you always crave for the fresh fish in the spring.
RACHEL REABE: You fished for what your family needed?
DOUG SAM: Right, subsistence. Yeah.
RACHEL REABE: Tell the story you told me about coming home with that big fish and your dad's reaction.
DOUG SAM: Yeah, that was-- I was a little boy. I was riding my bike, and I seen fins sticking out of the swamp. And so I went up and borrowed a spear and come back and speared it. I had a terrible time getting him out. I finally got him out close to the road, and I took the spear back where I borrowed.
I come back, put him on my bike. He was big know. It was dragging as I was paddling down the road, and I got him home. My dad says, what are you going to do with that fish? I said, I'm going to eat him. He said, all that? He said, I told you to get a smaller fish, not that size.
RACHEL REABE: He didn't want the part that you dragged home on the gravel, Doug. I think that's probably it.
DOUG SAM: Yeah. Well, he just-- we just wanted something for one meal.
RACHEL REABE: So the point wasn't to harvest the entire lake of fish.
DOUG SAM: No, we're just hungry for fish. I got fish that was too big for our family size.
RACHEL REABE: During these past number of years, Doug, as you have seen the rights to fish in the lake eroded, and this has actually been in your growing up years, did you just stop fishing, or did you go out on a launch with the rest of the tourists here and try to fish every once in a while to get some walleye?
DOUG SAM: Well, I guess, we got cross-culturize and became sportsmen.
RACHEL REABE: Define that to me. When you say, well, yeah, I go out sport fishing, how does that differ from what you've talked about just now?
DOUG SAM: Well, you cast out there, I guess, for a trophy fish and stuff like that.
RACHEL REABE: Which way do you prefer doing it?
DOUG SAM: Well, for eating purpose, then that's OK. But if you want to have fun, you go out and launch.
RACHEL REABE: So you like the right to do both?
DOUG SAM: Right. That's why I said I was called cross-culturize.
RACHEL REABE: Our number this morning at Mille Lacs, 1-800-537-5252. And you really have the right to net fish, as you've already talked about today, and also spearfish.
DOUG SAM: Right.
RACHEL REABE: Spearing fish, netting fish, which is more difficult?
DOUG SAM: Probably netting, because when you pull the fish, you got to pull them out of the net. And you can see my hands, they're full of cuts and bruises.
RACHEL REABE: So netting is a more difficult because you're pulling all the fish out of the net.
DOUG SAM: That's correct.
RACHEL REABE: And with the spear, you just pick it up.
DOUG SAM: Pick what you want. Yeah.
RACHEL REABE: You told me spearing happens at night.
DOUG SAM: Right.
RACHEL REABE: So what happens? You go out in a boat.
DOUG SAM: Well, you see their little eyes. And I guess-- I didn't spear yet this year, but I think size is hard to figure in the water because of the regulation.
RACHEL REABE: There's only certain size of fish you have to get over a certain size.
DOUG SAM: That's right.
RACHEL REABE: Don, let's talk about spearing and netting. Are they both equally popular at different times of year or is it just something that you're used to, what you might go for?
DON WADDELL: Well, I think it varies from tribe to tribe. One of the things that in Wisconsin, we saw that tribes tended to spear. Malax people tended to be more netters, that they had used nets and tended to use nets now and prefer nets, I think, to spearing. Nets are pretty efficient method of fishing.
I think the statistics that we'll talk about later about sizes and numbers of fish and sex of fish that have been harvested, indicate that you can be real selective with netting. And that was really the goal of the band's department of Natural Resources and the state to try to selectively fish. Spearing, it's a little more difficult. You have to judge the size of the fish.
RACHEL REABE: When you're dealing with a moving object, this isn't something stuffed in the water in the boat?
DON WADDELL: Right.
RACHEL REABE: I mean, trying to picture the coordination to do that and trying to figure out on the fly, whether that's a 15-inch fish or not would be very difficult.
DON WADDELL: Yes.
RACHEL REABE: What does it mean when we hear the term ceremonial fish, we want to harvest the lake as part of a ceremony, the ceremonial harvest? What does that actually mean?
DON WADDELL: Well, there are a number of types of ceremonies that involve fish. In general, the tribe, through its religious activities and culture, has various things that it uses fish for. And a percentage of these fish that are being harvested are used in those types of ceremonies.
And one of those is to give thanks for living through the winter and the creator providing new, fresh food for everyone in the spring. And those are things that the tribe has done years and years. Before the implementation of treaty rights, it was very difficult to get fish, to do these types of ceremonies or feasts to indicate that there is giving thanks for surviving the winter and the creator's support of new and fresh foods for everyone for the summer.
RACHEL REABE: Doug, when you took those fish out of the net the first time that you have netted in this lake for years and years and years, and you told me you presented some to your dad and you gave some to the tribal elders, that would not be able to get out and fish themselves, was there a sense of ceremony in that or of them accepting that not just as, Doug, thanks for the fish dinner, but a sense of thank you for giving this back to us?
DOUG SAM: No, I think it's expected anyway. And one thing I forgot to tell you before we got on the lake, we offered tobacco to the great spirit, who we're giving you this fish.
RACHEL REABE: And you're netting experience this spring included all those things?
DOUG SAM: Right.
RACHEL REABE: When treaty rights were restored, it wasn't exactly back to the way it used to be. It wasn't, Doug, was it like, you used to fish with your dad 50 years ago?
DOUG SAM: No.
RACHEL REABE: Because people were watching you. Your fish were weighed. They were measured. They were sexed. They were recorded. There was a lot of-- there was a lot more to do than just pick the fish out of the net and go home.
DOUG SAM: Right. They did that. The DNR was there and measured all the fish. But I guess that a little inconvenience, it served its purpose for what you wanted.
RACHEL REABE: So that didn't bother you?
DOUG SAM: No.
RACHEL REABE: Is it bothering some of the people on this reservation, do you think, Don, who are like, this is a victory now that we get to count these fish and spend this time at the landing, having these gone over and over and over?
DON WADDELL: I think there are some people who believe that impacts their feelings about the fish and how the harvest is being done. But the band is also very committed to making sure that the harvest of tribal members is well documented. And the fundamental issue about fish populations is to know how many are being harvested and have good numbers on that. And the tribe is very committed to doing that. And in general, tribal members believe that it's a good practice to make this work.
RACHEL REABE: Because you have no more interest in fishing out this lake than anybody does.
DON WADDELL: That's correct. The band wants to have fish there, always wants to have fish there. And we'll do everything possible to make sure that the fish population is sustained and increases even.
RACHEL REABE: We have Richard from Saint Paul on the phone with us. Good morning, sir. Go ahead with your question.
RICHARD: Yeah, good morning. I am not against you fishing. I don't want to make it sound this way, but I'm curious. The Indians feel that we, the White people, stole the land from them and forced them into treaties.
Now, the Ojibwe are not native to this region. They come from Canada, and they were able to chase the Dakota out of the region here and now because you had guns and they had bows and arrows. Now, I don't feel or never read where the Ojibwe ever compensated the Dakota Indians for taking their land away from them. What do you feel about that?
RACHEL REABE: Well, Don, how would you respond to that, or Doug?
DOUG SAM: I will just-- I'll do a response. And I don't think-- what we got in Minnesota, Norwegian Swedes. And we were never confiscated-- I mean, reimbursed for our land either.
DON WADDELL: I think that there is that misconception that there was not an understanding between the Ojibwe or Chippewa or the Sioux and the Dakota people, and that is incorrect. In 1825, there was a treaty between what was then called the Great Chippewa Nation and the Great Sioux Nation.
And that treaty defined whose territory was which, how that was all going to work. And that's well documented in the law and the issues that some people like to project that some compensation due or things. They would have to go back to those agreements and show that was done and the tribes had agreed to it in 1825.
RACHEL REABE: Our phone number this morning is 1-800-537-5252. If you have a question or a comment, feel free to call us. Don Waddell, this was an eight-year fight. How expensive of a fight was it? How much money did the tribe have to raised to fight this thing through for eight years?
DON WADDELL: Well, initially, this action was started in the early '80s. And one of the fundamental concerns of the band was making sure that it had adequate resources to litigate this issue. And so from 1982 to 1990, one of the things that the band tried to do was develop a fund that would enable the band to see through the litigation of this issue.
We anticipated that it would cost about somewhere between a a half and three-quarters of $1 million to do this litigation. We had raised that money over that period of time. And then in August of '90, we filed the case. Actually, the case cost us about $1.5 million, almost $2 million to litigate.
RACHEL REABE: Could you have done it without the money coming in from the casino?
DON WADDELL: Yes, the casino really did not have a bearing upon whether or not we were going to do this litigation. Although they simultaneously happened, there really was not the need or we had already secured enough revenue sources that we could have litigated this issue absent the Casino at all.
RACHEL REABE: Eight years, almost $2 million, has it been worth it?
DON WADDELL: I think definitely, it has. There's many, many issues in regards to how the treaty right was perceived by tribal members, how they will use and implement these treaty rights as far as nutrition, using them for food and ceremonial uses that will help strengthen their culture and religious activities.
Plus, just the affirmation that they were not wrong, that your parents, tribal parents, were telling their children that these are rights that the band has. And many times people would be arrested because nobody would believe them. And really, the vindication of the understanding of the tribal elders and parents and grandparents had about these agreements and how they weren't being fulfilled and the necessity of having to go to court to make this finalized and complete.
RACHEL REABE: Let's talk about how many Indians are exercising their rights. We have one here. Doug said he's been out in the boat with his net. Do you have any idea, just give me a rough figure, Don, how many people do you think so far this year have exercised their rights under the 1837 Treaty?
DON WADDELL: I think that right as of today, we've had probably 50 or 60 people who applied and went out. It's difficult to get a good number on that, because sometimes three or four people will go together to set one net and then they'll share the fish amongst themselves, but yet only one permit is required. So you may have more people than the actual number of permits that have benefited from this activity.
RACHEL REABE: Is that a number that you would have predicted, if I'd asked you a year ago how many would go out?
DON WADDELL: I think I was using somewhere 30 to 50 people would probably go out. I think we'll see an increase over the next couple of years as people--
RACHEL REABE: As people relearn it. Do you have people in your family, Doug, that wouldn't have a clue, they'd be about where I am in terms of learning how to net or spear?
DOUG SAM: That's correct. My kids wouldn't have no idea how to get them. In fact, I took my grandson out and he learned a lot that night.
RACHEL REABE: Was it neat to be able to teach him?
DOUG SAM: That's right. He was real happy.
RACHEL REABE: Don, are there other people on this reservation who say, our rights have been restored under the 1837 Treaty and I'm not going to get a permit?
DON WADDELL: So far, that hasn't been the case. Although we have-- the last two days, it's kind of suspended the activities until we reevaluate to see where we are. We've had some people who've fished more than other people.
RACHEL REABE: And you want to spread it around because you have a finite number of fish that you're taking out of this lake this year.
DON WADDELL: Yes. And we want to preserve some of that quota so that tribal members will be able to get fish throughout the summer and in the fall, and also some winter fishing. So if they choose to have some fresh fish later on in the season, they can do that. And so part of our job in the department is to make sure that there will be adequate fish for all the members throughout the season, and we're working on that and dealing with that.
RACHEL REABE: We have John from Bemidji on the phone. Good morning. Go ahead with your question or comment.
JOHN: Yeah. Mr. Sam or Mr. Waddell, whichever wishes to respond to my thing here. I know that the Red Lake Band North of Bemidji has pretty much collapsed the fishery in lower Red Lake in more than half of upper Red Lake. And that's due to their own regulated overharvest of the lake for commercial fishing. Is there going to be commercial fishing on Mille Lacs?
And the second part of my question is, when are White people going to be finished with the guilt trip to Native American people? And what would it take to be done? I realize that things happened years ago, that were incorrect, unkind and improper, both to the Native Americans, the Blacks and the Japanese for that matter, but we need to get on with things. We've given people ancient treaty rights, casinos, affirmative action. When will we all be one race of human beings and move on?
RACHEL REABE: Don, why don't you respond to that?
DON WADDELL: Yes. I think, in general, we are one race. There are agreements out there that specifically define different things for different people. And in this particular case, there's agreement that allows tribal members to hunt and fish. And I don't think that that's any kind of a guilt trip. Maybe if there's any guilt to be boards, that no one is apologized for infringing upon the tribal right to hunt, fish over the last 50 years. Usually, when people take something that don't belong to them, they acknowledge that somehow.
RACHEL REABE: Don, let's respond to the first part of the question about Red Lake. This is a question that has come up quite a few times in the eight-year battle. People say, remember what happened in Red Lake. And again, that was also one of the top walleye fisheries in the state of Minnesota. And now, it's true what he says, it is almost fished out.
DON WADDELL: Red Lake, lower Red Lake, does have significant problems with their walleye harvest. I think one of the things that people need to understand is that Red Lake, the tribal government, has stopped the fishery up there, which has really impacted their community somewhere between $8 to $10 million in revenue. That's been taken out of this community, which does not have huge economic potentials. One of the things and concerns is that as fishery-- fish numbers decline, it has effects on the economy. And I think that's one example.
There's many, many players in the involvement with the fishery at Red Lake. The Bureau of Indian Affairs has the overriding obligation to ensure the enforcement and protection of that resource. Those things have not quite worked out the way that it should have. There are some environmental conditions up there as far as water levels that have hurt the spawning walleye.
So there are a number of things that involve with the area of commercial fishing on Red Lake. Red Lake is the sole regulator, manager in the sense of harvesting fish from lower Red Lake. And that is a problem they're dealing with and are faced with. And it's a very complex issue from the standpoint of harvest.
RACHEL REABE: But in your mind, it's not going to happen at Mille Lacs lake.
DON WADDELL: It can happen at Mille Lacs lake. The thing that everyone has to do is understand the fishery. They have to understand the numbers of fish that are being harvested. One of the things that the tribe has done is developed a very, very intense and highly regulated fishery, much more than the general fisheries. And as a result, we will know the tribal harvest and everyone needs to abide by the rules and regulations out there to ensure that harvests and the correct number of fish can be counted and monitored.
RACHEL REABE: We'll be back with a special edition of Main Street radio, live from the shore of Mille Lacs lake in Central Minnesota, right after this.
MPR's Main Street radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the Blandin Foundation, committed to strengthening communities through grant making, leadership training and convening. Our statewide forecast. You can expect mostly sunny skies across Minnesota today with highs in the 60s. Clear skies with temperatures in the 30s tonight. And for tomorrow, mostly sunny again and warmer. Tomorrow in Minnesota, highs in the mid 60s and the lower 70s. Right now in the Twin cities, we have 56 degrees.
Good morning. I'm Rachel Reabe and we're broadcasting live from the Minnesota Historical Society's Mille Lacs Indian Museum, where exhibits tell the story of the Ojibwe Indians who settled here on the shores of Mille Lacs lake in the mid 1700s. We're continuing our conversation on the 1837 Treaty and how it's going to affect Minnesota's most popular walleye lake.
My guests, Don Waddell, Commissioner of Natural Resources for the Mille Lacs Ojibwe, and tribal elder Doug Sam. Joining the conversation now is Henry Van Oflin, treaty biologist for the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources. Good morning, Henry. Welcome to the show.
HENRY VAN OFLIN: Good morning.
RACHEL REABE: Our phone lines are open for your questions and comments, 1-800-537-5252. We have Pierre on the phone from Minneapolis. Good morning.
PIERRE: Good morning. General question, comment regarding treaty rights. Not so much local as how I understand natives from this area are recognized by Indigenous people internationally as highly sophisticated in their understanding of these rights and leadership, demonstrating leadership at an international level, particularly the UN, United Nations Peoples Organization. My question has to do with how we recognize this sophistication or this relationship to land?
This isn't about property rights. It's about how Native peoples demonstrate leadership in the use of land and how we all need to respect that, that we don't well enough, and as a society, especially. So this is like our common property and these people know how to use it well. And we deserve-- we should-- they deserve our attention to learn how to do it. And so it's not about rights. It's about the teaching of ways-- of good ways.
RACHEL REABE: Don, your response to that?
PIERRE: Thank you.
DON WADDELL: In general, the tribe is trying very hard to cooperate, incorporate traditional values of the tribe into modern contemporary types of activities of management and the use of resources.
RACHEL REABE: As we've said, this is the first spring that Indians are spearing and netting fish on Mille Lacs lake in many, many years. Henry, from your position as treaty biologist with the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, explain to us how that's going to affect the fish population. The call came in already today talking about Red Lake, which everybody's worst nightmare come true, that somehow we will drain this huge lake of walleye. How is it going to affect it?
HENRY VAN OFLIN: Well, I mean, it's very true that Mille Lacs is a world class walleye fishery. And given the management protocols and assessment work that we do, there is absolutely no reason to believe that it won't continue to be a world class walleye fishery, even with a small amount of band harvest like we're seeing this year.
RACHEL REABE: Explain to me what the average amount of walleye, how many walleye do we take out of this lake in a year.
HENRY VAN OFLIN: Yeah. We've been conducting assessment work and intensive assessments since the early '80s and the average amount of pounds of fish taken out of here by anglers over those years and evidence before that is about 450,000 pounds of fish.
RACHEL REABE: And the Indians under their first harvest will take how much?
HENRY VAN OFLIN: Yeah. This year, the bands have been allocated 40,000 pounds underneath their fisheries management plan, so less than one-tenth of the typical average. Now, this year, the population isn't at the 450,000 pounds level.
RACHEL REABE: So they're taking less than 10% of the walleye that will come out. Don, is that a number that you just came up with and thought this is a good place to start?
DON WADDELL: Well, we looked at what was being harvested in Wisconsin. That was really the only place that we had some good numbers about how as tribes implemented the reaffirmed treaty right that you could measure what was happening. And so through the calculations of what was harvested there, what might be more efficient at Mille Lacs, we tried to pick a number. Basically, the plan is designed to try to determine what the tribal need is going to be, and that's why the plan is designed over five years and increments that will increase if the tribal need increases.
RACHEL REABE: So it's not necessarily that you are going to be taking out 100,000 pounds of walleye in five years or in four years. You will determine that year by year.
DON WADDELL: Yes. And we will look at the need for the tribe, allocations of fish, all those types of things in continuing with the five-year management plan.
HENRY VAN OFLIN: Yeah, I was going to add that right now, our estimate is that there's about 1.2 or 1.3 million pounds of walleye out in the lake. So we figured what is a good harvest for this year based on all the science is about 260,000 pounds total.
RACHEL REABE: And Henry, we talked about the ice has only been out for 10 days on Mille Lacs and the tribe already is coming to their upper limit of what they're harvesting. It went very quickly, 40,000 fish for 60 fishermen.
HENRY VAN OFLIN: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of fish out in the lake, and when they're in shallow, as they have been after ice out, they're able to catch quite a few fish in a short period of time.
DON WADDELL: That's not exactly 40,000 fish for 60 people.
RACHEL REABE: 40,000 pounds of fish, of course.
DON WADDELL: 40,000 pounds of fish and Mille Lacs gets half of those. So Mille Lacs gets 20,000. pounds The other 20,000 pounds gets divided up amongst the other seven tribes. And so they're looking at 2,080 or 2,800 pounds of fish somewhere in that. So those numbers get pretty small pretty quickly. So we're not talking about significant amounts of fish.
RACHEL REABE: Thanks for the clarification. We have George from Northern Minnesota on the phone. Good morning.
GEORGE: Good morning. I have kind of a half comment, but a question also, and that is I'm confused. Does the Treaty of 1837 specify that in this day, 1998, we can use modern technology to harvest these and spear or net the fish? I'm kind of concerned that I'm seeing halogen lights on the heads, nice, quiet, electric motors, seven pronged spears. This is not the technology of 1837. And I wonder how that extrapolated from 1837 to the modern time, anyway. I feel that--
RACHEL REABE: It looks like Don respond to that. Don, have things changed? I know Doug told me before he went on there, he remembers going out with a birch torch to try to locate the fish when he used to spear as a young boy with his dad. This guy now is talking about halogen lights. And certainly, things have changed in the past 100 or so years.
DON WADDELL: Yes, definitely things have changed. There are many modifications to how tribal members can fish, how these things can occur. But the courts-- and the courts have continually affirmed that tribes can use modern adaptations of traditional methods. And the use of a halogen light versus a birchbark torch is just a modern adaptation of traditional methods. Gillnets, those types of things, from a twine net to a monofilament net, those are modern adaptations of traditional methods. We all recognize that there is changes in technology, and those things are there.
RACHEL REABE: The Department of Natural Resources have any problem with that, Henry?
HENRY VAN OFLIN: Well, I think the bottom line is, is that harvest here is being conducted under a pretty rigorous code. We've got folks out there monitoring the harvest. The bands have folks out there monitoring the harvest. And whether the fish is taken with a halogen beam or not, it's being recorded and we're keeping track of things.
RACHEL REABE: These fish have never received so much attention in Malax.
HENRY VAN OFLIN: All the fish in Malax have received a lot of attention over the years from us and, of course, from anglers, which are only-- the Twin Cities is only two hours from here. Malax has really been a fishing lake. That's what it's known for, and that's what it should continue to be.
RACHEL REABE: We have Rich from Minneapolis on the phone. Good morning.
RICH: Good morning. I believe my question is being answered as we speak, but I'm wondering your specific method by which you do monitor the harvest.
DON WADDELL: In general, netting or spearing requires a daily permit. They have to identify the landing that they're going to leave from or return to. There has to be a crew there that will monitor the catch. It can be biologists and/or game wardens, and usually it's both. And that's all done on a daily basis.
HENRY VAN OFLIN: And from our perspective, we've had conservation officers and DNR fisheries folks out at certainly every spearing permit that's been issued just about and also virtually every time. And that's been lifted. Someone has been around observing, watching and keeping track.
RACHEL REABE: Henry, where have all these people come from? Do you have an entire army of game wardens that are now spending their days and nights on Mille Lacs lake? Where do you come up with the people to do all this?
HENRY VAN OFLIN: Well, our fishery staff has-- we do have other activities which we are normally involved in the spring. We've just tried to make a go of it with transferring some of those folks to working more evenings. And the enforcement folks really would be better at answering what enforcement is done. But what I've seen is mostly local wardens out at the accesses.
RACHEL REABE: Our phone number here is 1-800-537-5252 for your questions and comments. This is a special Main Street program. We are talking about treaty rights this hour. Next hour, we will turn our attention to tribal sovereignty.
We are broadcasting from the Mille Lacs Indian Museum, where we can see Mille Lacs lake stretched out right through the glass window. And again, we talked about it is open today. The sun is sparkling on it. And it looks like a beautiful place to fish. We have an audience with us here at the museum, Leaf Hanger is in the audience with a question.
LEAF HANGER: Hello. Vince Merrill is part of the audience here today. He is a Mille Lacs band member. He also works here at the museum. So he didn't have any extra distance to come. And he's got a question for Don Waddell, the Natural Resources Commissioner of the Band.
VINCE MERRILL: Honey, Don.
DON WADDELL: Honey.
VINCE MERRILL: Mine is just a simple question. And it kind of has to do with the fishing. And I was wondering how a lot of people felt about the people that actually do traditional fishing, that go out and harvest for ceremonies and different activities like that.
I personally feel that, if I go out fishing for an elder, that I'm going out on the orders of an elder not having to go out and get a permit and be regulated by anybody, that DNR or so forth. Years ago, when the-- excuse me, when elders asked the younger men to go out and get fish, that was the only kind of law that I pertain to.
DON WADDELL: Yes, that's very good comment in the sense that that's how traditionally tribal members fish, that there was a very keen respect for the resource and those types of things. Today, things have changed, as the person talked about, using traditional methods to harvest versus modern day methods. There is also the restrictions on the tribal side from the ability of how tribal members used to do it and would like to continue to do that versus how we need to regulate the fishery because of the high use of the fishery, and because of various implications that the courts have defined.
RACHEL REABE: Vince, does that make it easier to go get a permit or do you still think, no?
VINCE MERRILL: For myself, I feel like going out and getting a permit and having a bunch of people from the DNR stand around and count my fish and that way-- doing that to me kind of hurts my pride a little more than having my grandmother go and say, hey, would you please go out and get us some fish? We're having a ceremony next week.
Having somebody there counting my fish and touching my fish and doing that kind of stuff to me, where an elder that I respect comes and asks me to do something, it's not secretive or anything, but asked me to do it. Like in the olden days, like a lot of elders can't go out and hunt and fish for themselves. So they ask us younger people to go out and get their fish or their deer or whatever.
I personally feel that somebody's coming to me and saying, hey, man, we want to look at your fish, it was a more embarrassment to me and going to tell my elders, well, they counted all the fish. I mean, I know some elders, they wouldn't mind getting a fish that way. But just me personally, that's the way I feel. I was brought up that way. When an elder said to go get something, you went out and got it, no matter if it was treaty or not.
RACHEL REABE: And this take some of the meaning away.
VINCE MERRILL: Yeah, it does to me, because that's the way I was brought up, and that's the way I want to bring up my children. I don't want to have my son say, dad, you want-- when I get older and say, well, you want to get me to go out and get some fish. And then he's got to go through the whole process of getting a permit, and then being regulated that way.
RACHEL REABE: Vince, you're not that old. You've probably never been able to legally net or spear on this lake, have you, for your whole growing up years?
VINCE MERRILL: No. I've gotten caught before, and that was-- I was netting for a powwow and stuff like that. And then I went out and got a permit and stuff. And then when I got caught, I showed them the permit and it didn't hold water. So I was doing it for the elders and I wasn't doing it for my own personal gain.
RACHEL REABE: So it's likely that you will continue to do it that way. You'll net and you'll spear, but you'll be looking over your shoulder.
VINCE MERRILL: Yeah. Well, I do ask Don for a permit, but that's for ceremonial purposes. If I went out netting for my own personal gain, I don't go out. I just do it because it was a way of life for me when I grew up. When my grandfather and grandmother asked me to go out and get some fish, I didn't question anything, or I didn't seek out the DNR and say, hey, I'd like to come out and get some fish. I just went out.
RACHEL REABE: Don, is it hard to convince your people? Here's the 111 page manual. Read it, digest it, and follow it. Have you had a sell job with your own people here?
DON WADDELL: Well, there are certainly concepts and cultural uses of resources that have made it very difficult to find a balance in this issue. And the tribe has tried very hard to find the least restrictive methods so that tribal members can harvest and access these resources. I think one thing that's important is the question about legally harvesting fish. Tribal members, this is what this court case was all about, that they really did have the legal right to harvest fish. It's just that they were being denied that legal right.
RACHEL REABE: We have Kim from Minneapolis on the phone. Go ahead with your question.
KIM: I guess I just wanted to comment first on the positive relationship that sounds like the state and the Mille Lacs Band has. And I think that communication is really great. And I just wanted to comment on that. I also wanted to comment on a previous caller. And when he was speaking of the special treatment, when is that going to be over, he mentioned other minority groups.
And I think maybe a portion of it is ignorance is not understanding the difference between Native American and European-American philosophy. And maybe if your guests could speak to that a little bit. And for example, the treatment of the earth, the view of the land, and just fishing as compared to our European-American sportsmen. And I'll hang up and listen.
RACHEL REABE: Thank you. Don?
DON WADDELL: Yes. There are significant differences in the beliefs and fundamental concepts of how tribal people view the resource and how the traditional sports person looks at the resource and the way it's utilized and the way the resource has been developed over the years. I'm not opposed to the way the state has developed the use of the resource, and that's fine for how the state has done that. It's just people have to acknowledge and see that the tribe has a different way to use those resources and will continue to implement them from a tribal perspective, how it will use its share of the resource.
RACHEL REABE: Peter from the White Earth Reservation is on the phone. Good morning.
PETER: Good morning. I've been listening to your program, and I've heard several comments from some folks out there and it's pretty obvious to tell that they still resent the fact that the folks down there are using their rights granted by treaty. And I'd be curious, there's been a lot of talk so far on how the Indians are regulated and how they're looked at and how they're assessed when they come off the lake.
I'd be curious, they're spending an awful lot of resources on that. Are they spending as many resources to watch the other anglers who supposedly have a right to those fish? Are they watching them as closely? I'm going to stand by and listen to comment.
RACHEL REABE: Henry, let's ask you that question. Doug talked about every fish was handled, weighed, measured, sexed, identified, classified, written down. What about the 90% of the fish out of this lake that are going to be taken by sport fishermen when fishing opens up in May?
HENRY VAN OFLIN: Yeah. Well, we are and have been keeping track of our angler harvest since the early '80s on an annual basis in the summer and the winter. We've got-- we use a survey, an angler survey, and we are able to make pretty good predictions or estimates of the number of fish harvested. That's where we get numbers like the average is 450,000 pounds. And the precision that we have on our estimates is about plus or minus 12% right now.
RACHEL REABE: So you're not going over not handling each of those fish, obviously, that come out of the lake. It's more of there are rules and regulations they must follow and you spot check to make sure they do.
HENRY VAN OFLIN: Yeah. Well, we are actively-- every day of the week, someone is out there counting boats and interviewing anglers, knowing how many fish, say, an average boat is catching. We expand those numbers out to get a total estimate for the day, adding those by the week, by the month, so we get the total harvest for the year.
RACHEL REABE: Jack from Earhart, Minnesota on the phone with us. Good morning.
JACK: Yes, hello.
RACHEL REABE: Good morning.
JACK: Good morning. I just wanted to comment on the regulations. What I hear in these comments are regulations that are arising out of Western society. These are foreign regulations. They are based on fundamental management principles that we operate by in the Western world.
It has been perceived that American Indian people did not have a civilization. They did not have any rules and principles in how they regulate their resources. Well, that's one of the problems that we have. We have always been perceived as being uncivilized and unable to manage our own resources. We always had management, and it was based on some very fundamental principles that are governing the relationship of all life, and we call those the-- we want to call them prime directors or their natural laws.
And a natural law is this that we have a very intimate relationship with all life, including the fish. One of the problems that we have today is because American Indian people at large are culturally bankrupt. They don't have the kind of respect that they had with these species once or many years ago.
And so we've taken the mentality from the Western world, and we perceived them as things that we can count in terms of the crude, materialistic form. And so we try to regulate that in terms of-- in that process. What we have in-- when we talk about tradition, we're talking about each individual making part-- that part of your daily life and their daily religion.
RACHEL REABE: Don, do you agree with the question of, it's a perception question, it's a different way of looking at things?
DON WADDELL: Well, clearly, the tribal perspective of the use of the resource is different than the general state perspective or tourism economic system that has been developed over the use of those resources. And one of the things that we've tried very hard to do is to match the things that are from the science, those types of things that we have to deal with, the numbers of fish being harvested, and the cultural needs and issues that the tribe has.
RACHEL REABE: So Vince said it would be difficult for him to take the fish that he gathered for a ceremonial harvest and have them touched and weighed and measured. For you, you would do that.
DON WADDELL: Yes, that's--
RACHEL REABE: Because you would realize that's what needed to be done to protect the harvest.
DON WADDELL: Right. And to allow access to these resources, and absent that, we would not have access to those resources. And hence, it's important that we have some of these things that have to occur.
RACHEL REABE: Does this attitude make your life easier, Henry?
HENRY VAN OFLIN: Yeah, it certainly does. There are a lot of regulations that band members need to follow and we can track harvest. And the bottom line is we need to track harvest. We need to track how many fish are out there in order to ensure that the great fishing continues.
RACHEL REABE: Have you been surprised at the almost lack of controversy? We all followed what happened in Wisconsin, a number of years ago, with the crowds and the shouting and the violence that we saw in Wisconsin. The Minnesota legislature a year ago appropriated a huge amount of money to make sure there wasn't that kind of violence when it happened this year in our state. And yet, Henry, have there been incidents that we just haven't heard about, or has it been almost?
HENRY VAN OFLIN: I think things have been very calm. Things have been running pretty smoothly. And I hope that continues. I think it's a credit to the sportsmen of Minnesota that this is how things have gone.
DON WADDELL: Yes, I see it, too, is also that the sheriffs have done an excellent job of communicating with people, of making people understand the relationship here that's been affirmed through the court system and the implementation of these things. And that it's really a good feeling to see that many, many people have learned that this can occur, it can occur in a reasonable manner, that it's not just kind of a wholesale type of thing out there, and that everyone is watching and making sure that this comes off very efficient and well-managed activity.
RACHEL REABE: So when you looked ahead and thought about this time, is this how it should happen? Is this the best case scenario that we're seeing on Mille Lacs? And we've talked about the harvest is almost completed. So we're not talking about, what could happen tonight or what could happen tomorrow. We've come through it almost.
DON WADDELL: Right. I do think that it's been a very good scenario as to how this can be implemented. The fear of the sky falling in is dissipated. We devoted a lot of energy over the last 10 years to try to make sure that people understood, that there was appropriate information out there that people could access so that they could understand about how these things would be implemented, and tried to assure people that this was a very highly managed and regulated fishery.
RACHEL REABE: And this is a continuing conversation as we've talked about, Henry. Things are being monitored, so things can be continually adjusted.
HENRY VAN OFLIN: That's exactly right. We will continue to do what we did last year to get to this point.
RACHEL REABE: We're halfway through this special Main Street radio show coming to you live from the Mille Lacs Indian Museum on the shore of Mille Lacs lake. My guests have been Don Waddell, Natural Resources Commissioner for the Band, tribal elder Doug Sam, and Henry Van Oflin, treaty biologist for the Department of Natural Resources. Thank you, gentlemen, for being with us.
We spent the first hour of our show talking about treaty rights, agreements between two sovereign nations, in this case, the US government and the Ojibwe Indians. Next hour, we're going to talk more about tribal sovereignty, the right of Indians to govern themselves and control their own affairs. It's all ahead as we continue this live Main Street radio broadcast from the Mille Lacs Indian Reservation after the news.
SPEAKER 5: Minnesota Public Radio and the Jungle Theater invite you to Holocaust Witness, Thursday evening at 7:00 at the Fitzgerald Theater in Saint Paul. For tickets and information on discounts, call 612-290-1221.
RACHEL REABE: You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. It's 56 degrees at KNOW FM 91.1 Minneapolis Saint Paul. Twin Cities weather for today calls for sunny skies, warm temperatures, a high of 65 degrees, clear skies tonight, sunny and warmer tomorrow.