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GARY EICHTEN: You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. We have a sunny sky. 81 degrees at KNOW FM 91.1. Minneapolis, St. Paul. We can look for a sunny sky through the afternoon. It should hit the low 90s today. Partly cloudy tonight with a low 65 to 70. Sunny tomorrow. Once again, temperature high will approach 90 degrees in the Twin Cities.

KORVA COLEMAN: From National Public Radio news in Washington, I'm Korva Coleman. President Clinton sat down at the White House today with the Bipartisan Leadership of Congress. They discussed the pending tax cut and balanced budget negotiations. NPR's Mara Liasson reports.

MARA LIASSON: Although there are many contentious issues between Congress and the White House, today's meeting was full of warm and fuzzy bipartisanship. The president praised the Republicans, and they praised him. Although the president has criticized the Republicans' tax cut plans, saying they are tilted to the rich. Today, he refused to say what might cause him to veto a congressional tax bill.

BILL CLINTON: It does not serve the American people well if we explicitly and publicly turn this into the Gunfight at the OK Corral. Now what we're trying to do is to find a way to work through our differences so we get a bill that they can all vote for and I can sign and we can celebrate for the country.

MARA LIASSON: Formal negotiations between the House and Senate begin this week. Representatives of all sides say they're optimistic there will be a deal before Washington shuts down for August vacation. At the White House, I'm Mara Liasson.

KORVA COLEMAN: Russian space officials say they may ask NASA if Astronaut Michael Foale can substitute for a Russian cosmonaut and perform badly needed repairs aboard the Mir Space Station. The repair work is being put off for now, because cosmonaut Vasiliy Tsibliyev has a minor heart irregularity. If he's not well enough to perform the repairs, the Russian Space Agency may ask Astronaut Foale to step in.

NASA says the repairs could also be left to a new Russian crew that's scheduled to join the Mir on August 5th. The repair work is needed to restore the space station's power supply, damaged in an accident last month with an unmanned cargo ship. Italian fashion designer Gianni Versace was shot to death today outside his mansion in Miami Beach. He was rushed to Jackson Memorial Hospital, where he died. Mike Wolff has more.

MICHAEL WOLFF: Gianni Versace ate breakfast as usual at a nearby trendy cafe called the News Cafe on South Beach, only a few blocks from his oceanfront mansion. As he was walking up to his front door, a man wearing black shorts, a gray shirt, and a backpack walked up and started shooting. He was hit several times in the back of the head. Police investigators have marked off four shell casings on the steps and sidewalk.

KORVA COLEMAN: It's not known if any suspects are in custody. Jurors in a lawsuit filed by flight attendants are hearing opening statements from cigarette makers today. Some 60,000 non-smoking flight attendants are suing the tobacco industry over ailments they say they got while working with smoking passengers. A tobacco industry attorney says research indicating secondhand smoke causes illness is really very weak.

On Wall Street, the DOW Jones Industrial Average is down more than 25 points at 7897. Trading is heavy. This is NPR.

SPEAKER 1: Support for this program comes from this and other National Public Radio member stations. And the Lila Wallace-Reader's Digest Fund, helping people to make the arts part of their everyday lives.

KAREN BARTA: Good afternoon. I'm Karen Barta, with news from Minnesota Public Radio. The state's revenues were $300 million higher than expected when the fiscal year closed at the end of June. Governor Carlson says he expects up to $100 million to be used for a tax cut by the 1998 legislature. The governor wants to use the money for income tax cuts.

Under a new so-called livable wage ordinance, some Duluth businesses will have to pay employees $7.25 an hour. Minnesota Public Radio's Bob Kelleher reports from Duluth.

BOB KELLEHER: The ordinance, which won narrow support in an early morning vote, is considerably weaker than one pushed by a coalition of some 50 organizations. The ordinance is intended to impose a minimum livable wage requirement on businesses which accept city loans or grants to expand or locate in Duluth. However, it provides an exemption of up to 10% of an employer's workforce. And it does not impose the minimum wage on businesses which contract to provide services to the city.

With the city council's vote, Duluth becomes the first Minnesota city to have a minimum livable wage requirement by ordinance. Minneapolis and St. Paul have each adopted weaker resolutions to place the requirement on some businesses with more exemptions than in the Duluth ordinance. In Duluth, I'm Bob Kelleher. Minnesota Public Radio.

KAREN BARTA: The state forecast this afternoon. Warmer becoming partly cloudy in the Northwest with a chance of showers or thunderstorms. Highs from the lower 80s in the northeast to the lower 90s in the southwest. And for the Twin Cities, sunny with a high around 92 degrees. Around the region this hour, skies are mostly sunny. In Rochester, it's 81 degrees. It's 79 in Duluth. In St. Cloud, it's 82. And in the Twin Cities, it's 84 degrees. That's news from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Karen Barta.

GARY EICHTEN: Thank you, Karen. Six minutes now past 12:00. Programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by Glenwood-Inglewood Water. Clean, fresh, pure, and plenty of it. Home and office delivery available. 374-2253.

[MUSIC PLALYING]

And good afternoon. Welcome back to Midday, here on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary Eichten. Well, today, as part of our Voices of Minnesota series, we present the story of the Kid. A young boy stricken with polio who grew up to be one of Minnesota's finest three-sport athletes. A man who compiled one of the best coaching records in the history of pro football, but never won the big one. A private man who has moved center stage in the Indian Treaty Rights dispute.

It turns out that the Kid, 70-year-old Hall of Fame coach Bud Grant, is full of surprises. While a generation of football fans remember Bud Grant as a steely-eyed, stoic Minnesota Viking impervious to the frenzies of football and the wind chills of MET Stadium, turns out he is warm and engaging. And it turns out that Bud Grant, who came to symbolize Minnesota to so many millions of people, actually grew up across the lake in Superior, Wisconsin.

BUD GRANT: Scottish. Irish, basically. But there's a Swede in there. Came from Scotland and went to Prince Edward Island and then split off and came to Northern Wisconsin to work in the lumber camps. Part of the Grant clan went into Canada on the railroads. And they came to Northern Wisconsin, and that's where my dad was from. He was actually born in Indian reservation up in Odanah, up in Northern Wisconsin. And spoke fluent Chippewa and had many, many Indian friends.

My mother was born in Duluth. And you got to remember that these were poor days. I mean, my recollection-- my mother is now 95 years old. And still very fluent. And the stories that she can tell about life in those days was almost uncomprehensible to my children. I can comprehend because I'm old enough to have lived through a depression, lived through a war, and knew what poor times were and not having things. But nothing like my mother and father endured.

GARY EICHTEN: I'm curious how you ended up with the name Bud.

BUD GRANT: My name, real name is Harry, and I'm a junior. And you can't have two Harrys or two Franks or two Daves in a house. It just doesn't work. So my mother started calling me Buddy Boy when I was a little kid. And my dad called me Kid. He never called me Harry, he called me Kid. And of course, thank goodness it got shortened to Bud, from Buddy Boy. And thank goodness I wasn't a boxer. I would have been Kid Grant.

[LAUGHS]

GARY EICHTEN: Now, I was surprised to learn-- amazed to learn, actually, especially given your athletic career-- that you had polio when you were a child.

BUD GRANT: Yes. That was in the days when polio was really epidemic, you might say. And everybody lived in that era, knew somebody who had polio. I was very fortunate that I didn't get a severe case of polio so that it was really not diagnosed until I was almost over it. But I was limping, and it did affect my limb. My left leg was smaller. The measurements were much smaller. The foot was smaller. The thigh, the length. Everything was smaller.

And I had a doctor, I think, or the family had a doctor that was ahead of his time. Because in those days, Sister Kenny and that rest and massage and don't do anything kind of thing, where the doctor said, just don't do any of that. Just in fact, I remember my dad telling the story. He said, get the kid a baseball mitt and let him go play. And this was when I was eight, nine, 10 years old.

Probably around 10 when I remember, because we didn't have Little League then, but we did play some baseball. And I got my first baseball mitt as a result of that. And I limped all the way through high school. And I wore special shoes all the way up until my junior year in high school. And gradually, that leg responded to exercise or just use. It was nothing special it did, but just, it came around. So thank goodness I didn't just sit around and do nothing. Actually, athletics helped a great deal.

GARY EICHTEN: You played all the sports as a child. Did you--

BUD GRANT: All kids do, yeah.

GARY EICHTEN: Were there any organized kind of deals? I mean, today, all the kids, they just get shuffled off from one organized event to another.

BUD GRANT: I think we miss a lot. And that's why I'm not in favor. And I've got four boys and I got grandchildren, and they've all participated in sports up to the college level. And from Little League on. I'm not in favor of all of that. I think you lose a lot. Not to say that Little League isn't good, whether it's hockey or baseball, or whatever, basketball, football. Whatever the sport, tennis.

When we were kids, it's hard to go back and say, well, we did it better or we learned more. I mean, you just can't use that. But I remember that if we didn't-- we were our own umpires, our own referees. And if we had spent all our time arguing, we couldn't play. So we found a way of settling things quickly so we could spend more time playing and less time arguing. And me choosing up sides.

We had a means of choosing up sides and who was first at bat and who-- was it a foul, wasn't a foul. I mean, we had a way to do that and settle that and settle those arguments. Decide who is on what team, where we're going to play, when we're going to play. We did all of that ourselves. Kids don't do that any day. They come home and say, when's the game? When's the practice? When does the car leave? Where's my uniform? If you got my stuff ready, where's my bag?

And so the parents got to provide or the coaches or the managers have to provide all that. We did all that ourselves. I remember calling kids and getting the team together on the phone and taking my bicycle and make sure you're there at a certain time. You bring a ball because we only got one other ball. So you make sure you bring your ball. And who's got a bat. And organizing that ourselves. And we played hours more. We didn't have television either, remember. So we spent hours upon hours playing baseball. Playing basketball up against the barn. Trying to sneak into a gym, trying to find a place to play. Organizing teams.

None of that happens today. Little League loses. I think the kids lose a lot by not having to learn those ways of getting along and participating in something and settling arguments and making decisions. I think they're not ready for that.

GARY EICHTEN: Do you think we could go back to that, or--

BUD GRANT: I don't think we could now. I mean or now. I mean, society changes. You evolve and you have to stay up with the evolution of things. But I think that I gained-- and I think anybody that was a kid in those days learned a lot of lessons in life that they've carried on. And remembering that during the Depression, during the war, after the war, there were opportunities for people. Entrepreneurs or jobs or quick advancement. Things that aren't available today.

And I think the people who took advantage of those were the people who had to make those decisions as kids growing up and use them later in life. And most of us have exceeded our parents in terms of stature, jobs, income, living standards, whatever. And it's hard for the kids today to exceed their parents in those areas.

GARY EICHTEN: Now, you were a star athlete in high school in Superior, Wisconsin. Then you went off to the navy.

BUD GRANT: Well, I went through high school getting ready to go to war. Literally. I mean, we all did. I mean, the war was started in '41, my first year of high school. I spent four years getting ready to go to war. I went to school. But basically, we were ready to go to war. I mean, I figured I'd get in at the end of it, which I did. But that's what we did.

And athletics were a part of high school in those days, and I participated in all that. But the day I got out of high school, I joined the navy. And I was going to win the war. Because I had been propagandized or whatever the term is. I mean, I followed all the events, world events and the war events. I mean, the back and forth in Russia, all the great naval battles, North Africa. I knew all of those because I followed that.

We were prepared to go to war. I was ready to go. My friends were going. They were dying. They were coming home maimed and wounded. And we were in bond drives and scrap metal drives and rationing and everything. So I went in the navy as soon as I could.

GARY EICHTEN: Didn't that scare you, to watch your friends come home, in some cases, not come home at all?

BUD GRANT: Made me more determined. And a lot of us were more determined today or then, I think, to get in and do our share. I mean, if you didn't, there was quite a-- I mean, to be 4F was something that you did everything to avoid. I mean, you did not want to be a 4F. You did not want to not go in after all of your friends had gone in the service. I mean, there's-- at least in the circles that I was in, I mean, there was a stigma that you couldn't get in the service.

I mean, I know guys were 4F that did anything to get in. They joined the merchant marine or did something to have some impact or have some contribution at that time. I never made it. I got in the navy, and I ended up at Treasure Island out in San Francisco learning how to drive a landing craft. We were going to go to Japan. We had must have been, I don't know, 5,000, 10,000 landing craft. They were everywhere. And we were going to storm Japan. And we were going to lose a million people.

But we were ready, and they dropped the bomb. Didn't have to go.

GARY EICHTEN: Meanwhile, you were playing football in the navy.

BUD GRANT: I played at Great Lakes.

GARY EICHTEN: --the legendary coach.

BUD GRANT: Yeah, I played when I was at Great Lakes during training and played basketball there, too. And then ended up in outgoing units out in San Francisco when the war ended.

GARY EICHTEN: Did you get a big scholarship, then, from the University of Minnesota when you got out of the navy?

BUD GRANT: Not really. Because they said, well, you're on a GI bill. We don't think we should double up on that. And so, no. Actually, I was going to go to Wisconsin, because I'm from Wisconsin, of course. And I was going to go there. But having been in the service and playing at Great Lakes and traveling and we played at Notre Dame, we played at Michigan, we played at Ohio State, we played at Wisconsin, Minnesota, Midwest, Big Ten schools. I had seen all the Big Ten schools by that time and decided it was more important to live closer to home.

My folks could come to the games. I could get home once in a while. 150 miles from here to Superior, 350 from Madison. And without a car, that's a long way to hitchhike without a car. So I came to Minnesota without-- as a matter of fact, Wisconsin offered me quite a deal. They would give me $100 a month. All my books, room, board, and tuition. A job at the sporting goods store and a car to drive from a car lot that as long as I did passing work, I would have access to this car. Which was pretty good in those days.

I turned all that down and came to Minnesota for nothing. Didn't get a nickel. Just to be independent. And I felt if I took a scholarship to Wisconsin, they'd have said I'd had to play football. I'd had to go out to spring practice. I maybe couldn't have played basketball, couldn't have played baseball. I wanted to do all three. And I didn't want anybody telling me what to do. I'd been in the service a year. Didn't want any more of that.

[LAUGHS]

GARY EICHTEN: So you played all three sports at the university.

BUD GRANT: Yes, yep.

GARY EICHTEN: And then in the meanwhile, you were also moonlighting for the town baseball team.

BUD GRANT: In the summers, that's the way I made a living.

GARY EICHTEN: Yeah.

BUD GRANT: Remember, during the war, we had nothing to buy. The farmers, merchants. So we all had savings bonds. But after the war, we had nothing to buy, nothing to spend money on. There was no professional teams here. There was no television, no entertainment. Small town baseball was big time.

GARY EICHTEN: How much you get paid? Now you were a hotshot pitcher, I understand.

BUD GRANT: Well, I don't know. I got paid more money to play in these small towns than I would have if I'd have paid played for the St. Paul Saints.

GARY EICHTEN: That was the big minor league baseball--

BUD GRANT: That was a step below the major league baseball team. I got paid more money, lived at home, and never had to practice. I just had to play. I could pitch three days a week, and that's what I'd do. And I'd get between $50 and $75 a game for every game I'd pitch. And then there were some teams where I would-- remember, small town baseball was a lot of rivalry. So there was a lot of betting, friendly betting. One town against the other team.

So there were certain teams that I knew that I would I'd say, OK, you take my $75 or $50 or $60 or whatever and would be-- you'd bet it. You just lay it off. I'll bet on myself. And you just pay me double or nothing. When I first realized play me double or nothing, well, we can't do that. I said, well, then just take my money and you bet it. And they liked that. They thought that was great.

GARY EICHTEN: Do you regret having come up at that time, as opposed to these days where, if you can even throw the ball over the plate-- to say nothing of being a pro basketball player, a pro football player. Well, you would be a multibillionaire, I suppose.

BUD GRANT: I don't regret it for a minute. For two reasons. We had a lot of fun. I mean, I really had a good time. I mean, I really enjoyed playing. And the people I played with enjoyed playing. It was an experience that I really benefited from. And on the other hand, this is the best time of my life. I mean, I wouldn't miss this time for anything. And this is great.

And I don't regret that I was born too-- I wasn't born too soon. I was born just right. Where I could do all that.

GARY EICHTEN: What was your favorite sport?

BUD GRANT: Actually at baseball, I enjoyed it as much, because I had the ball in my hand. I was a pitcher. Or I could hit, I could hit. I always bat cleanup or third or whatever. And I could hit good enough that I enjoyed the hitting part of it as much as the pitching. But the pitching was where the money was, so I pitched.

And I wasn't that great a pitcher, but I think I had a good arm that could-- I never got a sore arm or a sore back. And I threw a lot of pitches. I threw side arm, overhand, underhand, changeups, and screwballs, and a lot of different pitches that I could get by. And once we were ahead, I didn't care about striking people out. I just tried to win the ball game. And that was fun.

It's fun to play football, because it's a dirty, grimy, hard-nosed football game. It's fun because it's a physical game. Basketball is more fun to practice. I mean, you can practice basketball and simulate games more than anything else. So basketball to practice was fun. Football to play was down and dirty. Baseball was fun because I was in control. I had the ball in my hand.

GARY EICHTEN: And you got to do two of the three at the major league level, playing for the Minneapolis Lakers. At the time, they were the world champs. You were a reserve.

BUD GRANT: Yeah.

GARY EICHTEN: And then you played for the Philadelphia Eagles, made all pro and pro football--

BUD GRANT: Right.

GARY EICHTEN: --as an end. And--

BUD GRANT: Both offense and defense.

GARY EICHTEN: Played both ways.

BUD GRANT: Well, one year I played defense, the next year I played offense. But at Minnesota, I played both ways when I was at the university, so I was accustomed to it. Then I went to Canada for four years and played up there and played both ways every game.

GARY EICHTEN: I understand that you were the first person, the first National Football League free agent. Is that correct? The first person to essentially play out your contract and move on to another team. In this case, it would have been the Winnipeg.

BUD GRANT: I read my contract. And I was playing defense. My first year, I went up. And the first year, I didn't go. I said, well, no, I'd rather play basketball, because I can live at home again. And so I'm going to stay. And they didn't offer me the kind of money I wanted. Even though I was the 12th player taken in the first round, which today equates to $4 or $5 million. Then, it was $7,000, take it or leave it.

So I missed the first year of pro football and played basketball. The next year, I went to the Eagles and I thought I was doing well. And the first game, somebody got hurt on defense. They put me on as a linebacker or defensive end. I got two or three sacks, whatever it was, against the Bears. And from that point on, I played defense the rest of the year.

Well, as good as I was, and I wasn't that great a defensive player, I said I was a better offensive player and I wanted to play offense. Well, they said we got two good offensive receivers and if you come back next year. But I said, no, I want to play offense. And then I wanted a raise. Well, they couldn't give me a raise. I said, well. Then I read my contract, and it said something about an option in there.

So I went to a lawyer. What does this mean? Well, it just means that you've actually signed a two-year contract. So you can play under the terms of this contract next year if they're not offering you a raise. So I didn't push for the raise. I went there and said, OK, all I want to do is play offense or I'm not going to come. Well they said, well, we'll give you a shot. Well, that's all I wanted. I got there.

So I made it and played offense all year. The second in the league in receiving and made all pro. And but now, I had no contract. So I was free to go wherever I wanted to. So I was the first player in the National Football League to play out his option. At that time, the Commissioner's Office was in Philadelphia. Bert Bell was the commissioner. He had me up to his office four or five times and said, well, sonny, you can't do this. I mean, nobody's ever done this. You just can't.

I said, well, why not? Well, he said, it just never been done. I said, well, that doesn't mean you can't do it. Well, no. But technically, we don't want to set a precedent here. And I'd say, well, OK, I'll think about it. He'd call me up a couple of weeks. I'd go up there and we'd talk about it. Did that four or five times, probably at the end of the season. And I said, well, no, I'm not going to sign a contract.

And so then I was free to negotiate with Winnipeg in the Canadian Football League. That paid me about 30% or 40% more to come there than play down here. Also, the hunting was much better up there.

[LAUGH]

GARY EICHTEN: What effect did Bert Bell, in this instance, his comments that, well, you can't do this, you can't do this-- did that strengthen your resolve to do it, or was it--

BUD GRANT: No, it wasn't a stubborn thing. It was just educational thing. And also going further back, when I was at the university, I played four years of football, three years of basketball. My fourth year of basketball, I just finished the football season. I was going to start playing. But actually, I played one game. And one of the Laker players got hurt, of the Minneapolis Lakers.

They inquired if I would be interested in joining them as a player. And I was actually the first player in the National Basketball Association, Basketball League, to get a hardship case. They claimed hardship. I mean, I had no money. I had used up all my GI Bill. I was going to the university. I'd already played three years plus one year in the service. I was ready to go into professional basketball. I didn't need another year of college.

They needed help. The Lakers did. The season had already started. They petitioned the other teams for a hardship for me. Well, I was not an All-American basketball player by any means. But so the other teams, well, fine. We got to get along and you need help. That's where you can get help. I'm a local people. They didn't need any help there, because they sold out every game anyway. So I joined the Lakers. I had the first hardship case.

Subsequently, many years later, that became common. And now, of course, you can come out early. So that was evolved into what it is today. But that was the first case.

GARY EICHTEN: So you were the forerunner of Kevin Garnett, too.

BUD GRANT: Yeah.

GARY EICHTEN: The kid who came out of high school.

BUD GRANT: Well, you might say that. I've been referred to-- I don't know if anybody even knows it but you and I.

GARY EICHTEN: OK, so you're up in Canada playing football for Winnipeg. And then, what is it, 1957, they want you to be the coach, too.

BUD GRANT: Well, they fired the coach, which is not unusual in our business. A good coach. A guy named Allie Sherman, who eventually went and coached the New York Giants later on. And they'd had some problems on the team because it's made up part Canadian, part American. And Allie was a New York-- been from New York and really didn't get along as well with the Canadians, who were a little more laid back. And I got along good with them as a player.

I was 29 years old, and I'd made the All-Star team. I'd been in Vancouver and just come back from an All-Star game, which they used to play for the shrine up there. I scored two touchdowns and had a good season. Led the league in receiving. And I came back, and they called me and wanted to know if I'd be interested in the job. I said, well they wanted me to be a coach and player.

Because I had helped soothe over some of the problems internally that the team had had. And the word had gotten back, I think, to the management. And I said, well, I'm right at the peak. Well, I said, think about it. So I came home for a week because we had a tragedy. Just prior to that on the way back from that game, the plane that came out of Vancouver that we were supposed to be on hit a mountain. And all the people were killed. And the plane, including a number of people from Saskatchewan, who I knew players that had been in the game.

We were scheduled on that flight and the last minute got changed. So I was shook up for a while after that. And took a week. And I thought about it. And I can't play forever. So maybe I can coach. Make some more money. So I got $1,000 raise and a one-year contract to coach.

GARY EICHTEN: Is this a true story? That you were the first person or one of the first people offered the Vikings job when the Vikings were created. And in 1961, they eventually hired Norm Van Brocklin. But that you were actually offered the job.

BUD GRANT: I'd been in Winnipeg for five years then at that time, and the team was organized. Now Max Winter was the owner of the Vikings. One of the owners, and he was also one of the owners of the Lakers at that time. So Max knew of me. And by that time we'd won, I don't know, two or three championships in Canada. So he approached me unofficially. Because I didn't want it to get out that I was negotiating. I think I owed Winnipeg-- I didn't want to make a big public relations thing. I wasn't trying to get a better contract out of them.

But Max did offer me the job. Although it wasn't his to offer. He said, I will offer you the job. And if you will accept, he said, I will guarantee you'll get the job. I said, well, geez, now don't say anything. I called him back and said, Max, you got an expansion team. The history of coaches and expansion team is about three or four years. I said, it doesn't sound like a good thing. I'm not a miracle worker. I'm just a hard working guy. And we got a championship team up here, and I got a young family and I just really don't care to move.

So he said, well, don't say no. I said, well, I really am, Max. I'm saying no. Because he said, I think I can get you the job. I said, well, thanks, but no thanks. Parting words was, come back in four or five years.

GARY EICHTEN: Which you did.

BUD GRANT: Which he did.

GARY EICHTEN: Now 1967 comes along, and the Vikings are-- well, they're not the worst team in the league, but they're not very good. And what, two years later, they're in the Super Bowl. Now how did you accomplish that?

BUD GRANT: Well, see, you got to be lucky in this business. When I took the Winnipeg job, I knew what the personnel was. I knew we were better than our record was. Being close to Minnesota and people, I mean, I would come down here in the offseason and I'd look at film. And I knew Van Brocklin well enough to walk in the office and look at some film and keep abreast of what's the evolution of football as it's played in both. They're very similar, but just to keep up.

So I knew the players enough to know that the Vikings had a pretty good nucleus of a football team. And I knew that's a good place to start. And if just some additions, and we could be in contention. So I just didn't take it as an ego trip or for more money. I took it only because I knew we could have a good opportunity to win.

GARY EICHTEN: Were you surprised, though, that you accomplish so much so fast?

BUD GRANT: Well, you got to put luck in there, too, you see. You got to be a little lucky. We won the division. I think we were 8 and 6 and we won on the last day of the season. We did get better from then on, of course.

GARY EICHTEN: Of course, that brings us to the Super Bowls. The first one, you lost to Kansas City. And then three subsequent ones in the '70s. Does that irritate you, that that always gets brought up? Well, he was a great coach. Vikings were a great football team back then, but they could never win the big game.

BUD GRANT: See, one of the reasons you call it a Super Bowl is because it is, it's super. It's one game, winner take all. It's not a World Series. It's not an NBA playoffs. It's not a Stanley Cup, four out of seven. It's a one game, winner take all. That's why you can call it Super Bowl.

Well, we just didn't happen to win that day. Now, for example, the next year, we played Kansas City and we beat them, I think, 23 to 7 in the first game of the year after our loss to them the year before. The year that we lost to Miami, we had them beat here 21 to 20, I think it was, or 19 to 20, whatever, 18 or something. Had them beat here. They went undefeated that year and beat us in a Super Bowl. We had them beat here. And then we had a fumble or a penalty or something. They kicked a field goal in the last seconds and beat us.

And down there, we had just some unfortunate things that happened in a ball game. It makes pretty thin soup. I mean, you can't ever bring those up. I mean, all you can do is say you win or you lose. It's not how you win or how you lost. You can't say we lost, but. Super means you win or you lose. That's what makes this society so great. You can compete at the level. You end up with one winner, whether it's a state tournament championship or Big Ten champion or NCAA champion.

You end up with one winner. Super Bowl. That's why they call it-- we lost, but to me, we did as well as we could. And just that day, it wasn't our day. So, no, that doesn't bother me. Because if we'd have won those four Super Bowls or two of them or any of them, my life wouldn't be any different today if we'd have won all those games. Not a bit. It would be exactly the same. Been no difference.

GARY EICHTEN: Were the Viking teams as good as they seem to be? How would they stack up with better teams today? Could they play with--

BUD GRANT: That's hard to make those comparisons. I think the athletes are better today. The squads are bigger. More people aspire to be professional football players. I think you've got more to draw from. Free agency makes it a different ball game, because we build a team in those days. We drafted Ron Yary. While we say, well, here's a guy we're going to have for 10, 12, 14 years.

Now you draft a player, you got him for three years. And he's free agency, and he's gone to the highest bidder. We could build a team. We had players like Jim Marshall, who played for 19 years. Started every game. And Mick Tingelhoff and Carl Eller and many of our players. Paul Krause, and many of our players played their whole careers or majority of their careers here. And we could build on that.

It's difficult today, so you can't make those comparisons. Although I'd say the players skill-wise are probably better today overall, but not individually necessarily. But I think overall, there's more skill today than there was then. But there's not the camaraderie that we had. There's not the love of the game that I see. Or a guy go to hell for $5 more almost. He gives you that impression.

Agents have ruined a lot of players by their outlandish demands. They sit in the back room. You never know who they are. But the player has to live up front with what the agent puts him in position he puts them in and demanding money and contracts and statements and whatnot. So the agent has really put a big cancer into all professional sports.

GARY EICHTEN: Do you think that sports will have to-- essentially, the sports industry will have to collapse, as it were, to get back to that old fashioned sense of camaraderie? Salaries would have to come down and things return to that level. Is that going to happen?

BUD GRANT: I don't see that happening. And you can't begrudge the players certainly for the money that's generated by sport, whatever it is. I mean, television being the main source. And who would you rather have the money, the owners? I mean, the Debartolos or the people, the multimillionaires, the Pohlads? I mean, do they even need more money. I mean, who needs the money?

The players are the ones that put their bodies in jeopardy out there every week, whatever game it is. And they have short careers. Their money is generated. I mean, advertising dollars and revenues that come in. The NFL properties, for example, pours millions of dollars into these teams. They're the ones that deserve the money, because they have short careers. And I don't begrudge them the money. I just begrudge the agents their share.

GARY EICHTEN: Would you tell us who your favorite players were? Minnesota players.

BUD GRANT: That's always difficult to do, because you reflect in what so many of them have done. And not that they've done it for you, or anything like that. And it's strange, because some of your favorite players turn out to be the ones you had the most problems with. I mean, players that either came to you almost incorrigible or were just-- I mean, just did and bought everything you said and did.

And so it wouldn't always be the players who were the star players. Although they certainly-- a lot of them played a long time. But you could name almost any of the Vikings. I could give you a great story on all of them, starting with Fran Tarkenton, who I think is the best quarterback that ever played in terms of his durability and the many years that he played and the productivity he had.

Jim Marshall, who I love, was our captain. 19 years, played every down of every game and started every one and came to practice every day with a mountain of enthusiasm and practiced and played and enjoyed life as much as anybody I've ever known. Mick Tingelhoff, a quiet guy who probably should have been a linebacker instead of a center because he was one of the toughest guys we ever had on the team.

And the Dave Osbornes who came in and said, here, give me the contract. He signs a contract and says, now you put in the figures. Those kind of people. But there's lots of them. I mean, the Paul Crouses. And you can go up and down the line, and those are only the names that you know. I mean, I could name a dozen guys that you wouldn't recognize who I'm beholding to as much as the aforementioned players.

GARY EICHTEN: Were you as calm as you always appeared to be on the sidelines? I mean, you just stood there and looked. And you see these other coaches, they're going bananas. The fans are going bananas. The players are going bananas. And you just stood there.

BUD GRANT: Well, in coaching, and as a player, too, I was analytical about what I was trying to do as a player and regardless of what it might have been. But as a coach, if you recall, I had a headset on. Now that headset had three buttons. One was to the offensive coordinator upstairs, one was to the defensive coordinator upstairs, and one was to the special teams fell on the sideline. I could press those buttons, and I'd be talking to somebody almost all the time.

But you're always a player to a head. All right, we scored a touchdown. All right, how about the kickoff team? Is anybody hurt? Who goes in? Who replaces who? And at MET Stadium, all right, we're kicking into the wind. We want to kick the left hash. You're going through that all the-- at least I was. And I want to know everything that's going on in every department during the game.

So I try to watch it and listen, because I only had an earpiece on one ear. So I could hear people on the sidelines that could talk into this ear. I could hear people upstairs in my earphone, and I could see what was going on at the same time. So I didn't have much time for emotion. I mean, I couldn't spend my time hollering at officials or players. I mean, I could discuss. But I was basically involved totally the whole time. And that's maybe misinterpreted a little bit.

And this maybe doesn't sound right, but I always felt that I was more involved in what was going on the football field than any of the other coaches. Head coaches.

GARY EICHTEN: Now, did you give any of those rah-rah, Knut Rockne, a win one for the gipper speeches at halftime? Did you do that?

BUD GRANT: One thing you learn when you deal with people, that you can only say something if you've got something to say. If you say things and you don't have anything to say, they won't listen to you. So you can't come out with clichés and you can't come out with made up phrases and phony wars and battles and stuff. They will only listen to you if you have something to say. If you don't have anything to say, you better shut up.

[LAUGHS]

GARY EICHTEN: That's a good thing for radio announcers to keep in mind.

BUD GRANT: So when you do say something, though, they're listening. And they know when you get up to say something, they better listen, because you got something to say. Now I've done it all. I mean, I've done it from nothing to just whatever it takes and whatever was pertinent, whatever was important. Mostly it would be an assessment of the situation. I mean, this is what the score, and this is this. They all know this.

But now, here are the opportunities or here-- and we're going to do this and we're going to change that. Because players are perceptive. They know when you're giving a bunch of crap. This goes in and out. So they know that if you're safe, you got something to say. If Bud's up there and he's got-- you better listen. Because he's going to tell you something. And you better listen.

GARY EICHTEN: And those heaters. Why didn't you allow the players to have heaters--

BUD GRANT: For the same reasons. For the same reason. I wanted them facing the field. Watching what was going on. So if somebody goes down and they're hurt or miss a play, I didn't want the guy who replaces him not to be over there with his hands on the heater, but to be watching. So I don't have to find him. I said, you watch. And when he's down, you're out there. I want you right now. Ready.

Stay in the ball game with us. Stand up, stomp your feet, clap your hands. Do whatever you want. But don't be over there. We don't want any heater. Don't worry about the heaters. They're not going to be there. So don't go looking for them. You're not going to be wearing long underwear. You're not going to be wearing gloves. You're going to be in the ball game, and you're going to be happy when you get in there and you can play with it and stand on the sidelines.

GARY EICHTEN: You coached the Vikings till 1983. You left for a year, then you came back for one year. Why'd you do that? 1985, you came back.

BUD GRANT: Well, I'd been out a year, and the Vikings fell on tough times. Les Steckel coached the team, and it was just beset by injuries. And we had players retired. And the team really didn't get off to a good start and just fell apart as the injuries mounted and the frustrations gathered and the perception of the team wasn't what it should be. But not because it's anybody's fault, really.

At the end of the season, Mike asked me a couple of times-- Mike Lynn was a general manager-- if I'd come back and Coach. I said, no, Mike. I said, I've made that decision. I'm not going to consider that. Well, then the week after or the day after, I think it was the end of the season, they fired Steckel. And he came to me again and said, Max wants to talk to you.

Max Winner, I played for Max with the Lakers, I'd played for him with the Vikings. He gave me a chance. And he said, I've never asked a thing of you. I've never interfered in any of your decisions. I'm asking you now, come back and coach. Pretty hard to turn down.

GARY EICHTEN: What did it mean to be inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame as a coach?

BUD GRANT: Well, it meant more after I'd been there. I really hadn't thought a great deal about it. I mean, I'd gotten all the benefits I could out of professional athletics. I've never made a nickel doing anything else. That's all I've ever done, is been in professional sports. And that's made every nickel and educated my kids and raised the family and--

GARY EICHTEN: Never got fired.

BUD GRANT: And never got fired. Quit before I got fired. Smart enough to do that. In three or four different places. And the Hall of Fame was something that I really-- even though I'd been there, we'd played a game there and I'd gone through the Hall, it really didn't sink in. It was just a, you know, all right, some icing on the cake.

Well then when it came about and they select you in January and you're not inducted till the next August. Now, you get to see what goes on and how this thing is built up. And you get to recognize and realize how few people are in there. I mean, there's only 175 or 80 people in the Hall of Fame. That goes back to the 1920s. That's a pretty exclusive group to be involved with.

And of all the other honors you get, you can win a Super Bowl or you can be all conference. You can lead the league in this, that, or the other. And you get a trophy, you get recognition. You get your name in the record books. But somebody comes along and they win another championship or the championship you won last year, somebody else wins or the record you set, somebody else got or whatever.

You can't do that with the Hall of Fame. They can't take that away from you. I mean, you're in there forever. And you're there with a bunch of the elite people in our business. I grew up with names that are in the Hall of Fame that I'm with. From superior, two of them. Tuffy Leemans was from superior. He played with the Giants. They used to train in superior. He's in the Hall of Fame.

A guy by the name of Ernie Nevers, who's in the Hall of Fame. One of the original Hall of Fame inductees going way back. He's from superior. I've heard those names all my life, through my dad and through other people in superior. Now I'm one of them. One of a hundred and maybe 80 of those people. It means a lot more to me now than it did getting into it. Or actually, well, the induction was a very emotional time, because a lot of those people were there. And I got to experience that. And that has to be the highlight to anybody in professional football career, to get into the Hall of Fame.

GARY EICHTEN: Did you have any idea as a little squirt in Superior that you were going to achieve this kind of stature in sports?

BUD GRANT: No. I'm like all kids. Everybody wants to be Michael Jordan today. I don't know if anybody ever will be. But I mentioned earlier, the Giants trained in Superior. The New York Giants came to superior to train. And so I used to go to them practices every day. And my dad-- the Superior had a class C baseball team. There was a concession stand. It was right next to the training facility, and the coaches would come to the baseball games at night and watch, for lack of anything, to do in Superior.

And my dad got to know Steve Owen, who was the coach who was in the Hall of Fame. And he'd say, hey, Steve, the kid's going to be in the Hall of Fame someday. Or not in the Hall of Fame, he's going to play for you someday. And I was a squirt. And so he would pat me on the head and say, sure. That kind of thing. Well, they were there for three years. And I used to go to every practice, and every once in a while, they'd let me carry a helmet in. A sweaty old helmet.

The player would give me a helmet and I'd carry it in the locker room and give it to them as they went in the locker room. So I was a kid who loved hanging around professional football players. Well then the war came. They were gone for four years. And then they came back, and now I was in college. Now I come up there, my dad said, hey, the kid's going to play for you, Steve. And Steve said, well, he's gotten a lot bigger now. And I'm sure he will kind of thing.

And my dad kept telling him that the kid's going to play for you someday. Well, as it turned out, I didn't play for Steve, but I played against Steve Owen. Eventually, when he was with the Giants. And that was a thrill.

GARY EICHTEN: Oh, I bet.

BUD GRANT: To have not an aspiration, really, but just because I was more realistic than that, to think, well, that's my only thing I want to do in life, because there's lots of other things I enjoy doing besides sports. But my dad was a hero worshipper, and the Bronko Nagurskis and the Red Granges and the Babe Ruths and the Joe Lewis's. And I grew up with all of that. So yeah, I was interested in sports. And not that I ever thought that I would reach this level. That was not something I dreamed specifically about.

I mean, I dreamed of the next step. I mean, I'm going to play in high school. I'm going to play in college. And maybe I'm going to play professional. But to carry it all the way to the top, no, I never thought in those terms.

GARY EICHTEN: Why is it that athletes so often, at least these days, get in trouble with the law? Is there something in inherent in the way athletes are treated, the way athletes think? What's going on here?

BUD GRANT: Well, I think you're in a very visible medium, first of all. The entertainment business in general, whether it be professional sports or music or, television, movies. Or politics. I think we're scrutinized so closely now. And not to say that things like this went on before, but I think there was less scrutiny of what really was going on.

The drug scene is something unique that we didn't have to deal with. And I think I always tell the people, if there's something that you don't understand, if there's something that doesn't make sense, if there's something that you can't figure out, it's probably drugs. I think the job that the NBA has done and professional football and baseball, I'm sure hockey, pretty well have eliminated the drug scene. And if it shows up, it shows up quickly and it's taken care of quickly.

But it makes sensational news. I mean, it's just covered to beyond what you can imagine. I can remember when I was playing with the Eagles, the doctor coming around at halftime and asking if he wanted to take a Benny.

GARY EICHTEN: Yeah.

BUD GRANT: And the doctors were handing them out in those days. And it wasn't thought of as, now if you took it, you'd be banned. I mean, you took steroids. You're out of business. I can see where the public looking at somebody making that kind of money, jeopardizing their careers by doing some of the things they did. And that doesn't mean that doing drugs is right or alcohol is right or abusive is right, or any kind of abuses can be tolerated at all.

But I think it was handled so much more in-house. I know part of my job, every day, I got 50 players. I know whether they got a hangnail. I know whether they had a fight with their wife. I know if they missed a car payment. I just know because I see them every single day. I know their moods and I know the way they-- anything changes, I see the change immediately. I'm up there. What's going on? What's the problem?

If it's a financial thing, a personal thing, a sick child thing, injury thing, I know it. But we dealt with it. It didn't end up in the newspaper all the time. And it wasn't scrutinized and analyzed and psychoanalyzed and dissected as it is today. I mean, look at our politicians. Look at what our president is going through just recently. I mean, it's unbelievable what is going on in today's society, and just for the sake of media news.

GARY EICHTEN: What do you find so interesting and fun or rewarding about the outdoors? You've always been so closely identified with hunting and fishing and--

BUD GRANT: I've got six children and four boys. Three of them enjoy the outdoors a great deal, and one doesn't. They've all had the same opportunities. I think it's something you're born with. It's a gene, really. You can expose all of us to certain things, and only so many of us can play the piano, or only so many of us can do certain things. And it may be writing or acting or music or-- and the outdoors appealed to me. But it appeals to a lot of people.

But not because my dad was particularly orientated to the outdoors. But it's just something that when we'd go out on an outing and people would go swimming, I'd go in the woods and walk in the woods and look for frogs or look at birds or do something like-- I enjoyed that more than just going out and splashing around in the water. Not that I don't like water. But it just was something that I've always been interested in.

GARY EICHTEN: And you still do.

BUD GRANT: And I'm an amateur. I mean, I'm an amateur naturalist or whatever you want to call it. And I just enjoy all things outdoors. And while I do hunt and I'm not a trophy hunter-- I mean, I'll shoot the biggest deer or whatever. But, I mean, it's not a macho thing. I enjoy being. I enjoy doing. And I enjoy harvesting. But I don't enjoy the killing, particularly.

GARY EICHTEN: You have always been portrayed as a pretty private person, despite your public life. How has your involvement in the whole treaty rights debate? Do you have any regrets about getting involved in that, taking such a public position on that?

BUD GRANT: Not at all. I feel stronger than ever about it now, having gotten into it even more since my first involvement. And it's a basic instinct that I have that it's wrong. That I'm right and they're wrong. That it's not right for somebody to have rights that you and I don't have in this country. That's not what this country is about. And that doesn't make any difference if it happened 160 years ago or 60 years ago or whenever.

I think morally, we don't have to have an apartheid system here where, because of your race, you're allowed to do things that other people aren't allowed to do or not allowed to do things because of your race. I mean, we've gone through that with South Africa. And that's basically what they're saying here. And you can say, well, they got treaties. And they were treated badly.

I didn't treat them badly. They may have been treated badly at some point. And I mean, that was 160-some years ago. And I just think it's wrong that they are allowed to put nets in a lake. And you and I can't do it, because we'd be thrown in jail. But they can do it. And whether the courts affirm or not affirm that, regardless of which way they go, I think is basically wrong for them to have-- I think they're Americans like everybody else. And there's not a racial bone in my body. Nobody's ever made that claim. I just think it's wrong for that to happen in this country. That's not what we're about.

GARY EICHTEN: Do you wish, though, that somebody else would have led the charge on this so that you wouldn't have had to become so publicly identified?

BUD GRANT: I've been called all kinds of names for a lot of things, mostly because I didn't kick a field goal and cover the point spread so somebody didn't win an office pool or something, so. Or for lots of reasons. You got to be a little thick skinned to be in the public life. And in athletics or whatever it is, if people want to think that this is a personal thing with me, with the netting and the spearing-- I mean, I've got nothing to do with casinos or anything else. This is strictly a resource thing, that those fish are in public waters for the public, the state of Minnesota, the people of this country, and not for somebody because of the color of their skin.

GARY EICHTEN: Is there anything that's even close to being as important to you as your family?

BUD GRANT: No. I don't think there is. And the reason is that both my wife and I grew up very poor. I mean, I went through college, never had a car. I mean, she had to pay her own way through school, make her own clothes, and get through school. And we got married at a younger age. And I mean, not young in terms of age, but we got out of college. I got married, my friends got married. All that 21, 22.

And mainly we could live cheaper and closer and make something of ourselves, which we never had. And then family comes along. And I mean, our first two children were born in Forest Lake. We didn't have running water. We washed the diapers in the sink at night and hung them up in the room to dry and got water out of a pump on the side of a hill. And had an outhouse about 30 yards out in the back that we used. And that's-- say, well, it's hard to believe that now. My kids didn't have to do that. But we did that, and we thought it was important.

We were having a good time. We were thankful we had what we had. And so when you grow up with that kind of a connection with your family, it's pretty important. Pretty important. You try to provide better for them. And as I mentioned earlier, I think we could provide better for our kids and our kids can provide for their kids, really. Because the opportunities at that stage in that era was open to all of us that I don't think is wide open as it is today, where you can exceed your parents in standard of living so dramatically.

GARY EICHTEN: Former Minnesota Vikings Coach Bud Grant. We spoke with Bud Grant as part of our Voices of Minnesota series. Dan Olson is the producer of that series, with help from Sasha Aslanian. Programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by Corporate Report Minnesota, providing research, insight, and focus on doing business in Minnesota.

That does it for our Midday program today. Gary Eichten here. Thanks for tuning in. Join us tomorrow. Among other things, a debate over gun control.

SPEAKER 1: On the next all things considered, we go back to the Grand Forks neighborhood, Lincoln Park.

SPEAKER 2: The dike is right behind it. And it's going to be-- again, it's a returning of a bad dream.

SPEAKER 1: All things considered starts at three.

GARY EICHTEN: You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. We have a sunny sky. 84 degrees at KNOW FM 91.1. Minneapolis, St. Paul. It's going to be sunny through the afternoon. High temperature could hit the low 90s yet today. Partly cloudy tonight with a low from 65 to 70. And then sunny skies are forecast for the Twin Cities tomorrow, with a high near 90 degrees.

RAY SUAREZ: In Washington, I'm Ray Suarez, and this is Talk of the Nation. Dr. David Kessler on the tobacco industry settlement with the states.

DAVID KESSLER: There's some very good parts of this settlement. Money for education. The advertising and marketing restrictions. But when you look at the fine details, the settlement could effectively impede FDA's ability to regulate nicotine and tobacco products.

RAY SUAREZ: Dr. Kessler and former surgeon General Koop have both been outspoken in their criticism of the agreement between big tobacco and the state's attorneys general. But the deal contains so much they had hoped for-- tougher warning language, banned vending machines, an end to promotional paraphernalia. David Kessler joins us this hour on Talk of the Nation for a look at the agreement and how he thinks it could have been better after the news.

KORVA COLEMAN: From National Public Radio News in Washington, I'm Korva Coleman. A White House warning to the Bosnian Serbs today. President Clinton says the Serbs would make a grave mistake if they go after US and other NATO troops in Bosnia in retaliation for the arrest of indicted Serbian war criminals. NPR's Tom Gjelten reports.

TOM GJELTEN: Serb leaders in Bosnia are still angry that NATO forces last week went after two Serb officials who had been secretly indicted by the International War Crimes Tribunal. Since then, two bombs have exploded at international offices in Serb territory, and some Serb leaders have hinted that NATO troops could face a violent backlash. At a White House meeting today with congressional leaders, President Clinton said the Dayton Peace Agreement requires the Serbs to cooperate in the arrest and prosecution of indicted war criminals.

BILL CLINTON: They have clearly not complied with that provision of the Dayton Agreement. They've made no effort to help us get any of these people. But they have no call to take any retaliatory action, and it would be a grave mistake to do so.

TOM GJELTEN: US officials have repeatedly warned the Serb leaders in Bosnia that they could be held responsible for the actions of their followers. I'm Tom Gjelten in Washington.

KORVA COLEMAN: The chief of police of Miami Beach says he believes slain fashion designer Gianni Versace was targeted by an assassin today. Versace was shot as he walked home this morning after picking up a newspaper at a nearby cafe. Witnesses say the shooter was a white man in his middle 20s. He has not been apprehended. The FBI says it's helping local authorities in the investigation.

Versace, who was 50, was known as one of Italy's leading designers in ready to wear clothing. Opening statements continued today in the first class action trial against the tobacco industry. NPR's Cheryl Duvall reports from Miami.

CHERYL DUVALL: The tobacco industry replied point by point to statements by the flight--