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GARY EICHTEN: Thank you, Karen.

Six minutes now past 12:00, and welcome back to Midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary Eichten.

Well, the kickoff parade should be underway now along the Nicollet Mall in downtown Minneapolis, marking the official start of this year's 13th annual National Night Out Against Crime. Actually, cities all around the region, and in fact, all around the nation, are encouraging citizens today to get involved and help prevent crime in their neighborhood.

And apparently, about 30 million people around the country are expected to participate

Today, we thought we would spend the hour talking about neighborhood crime prevention efforts, whether they really do make much of a difference. Joining us here in the studio is Travis Christopher. He is the president of the Minnesota Crime Prevention Association. He's a civilian crime prevention specialist with the Brooklyn Park Police Department.

Also joining us today is Lieutenant Richard Gardell. He is the Commander of the Force Unit in the Saint Paul Police Department. The Force Unit is made up of about 30 officers, who work on street crimes, community policing, and the like.

And we'd like to have you join our conversation, as well. Give us a call with your questions and comments. The subject today is Crime Prevention.

And the number to call in the Twin city area, 227-6000. 227-6000. If you're calling from outside the Twin Cities, you can reach us toll-free, and that number would be 1-800-242-2828. 227-6000, or 1-800-242-2828.

Gentlemen, thanks for coming by today.

SPEAKER 1: Thank you.

SPEAKER 2: Good to be here.

GARY EICHTEN: Appreciate your joining us.

Lieutenant, from your perspective as a police officer, do these neighborhood block groups really make much difference, these neighborhood efforts? If people actually take the time to head out and meet their neighbors tonight?

RICHARD GARDELL: Oh, absolutely. Clearly, it's one of the hopes for the future, in terms of crime prevention.

One of the things that we know block clubs help us do is increase that social cohesion, that knowing your neighbor. Get to know your neighbor.

A lot of times when we're talking to families, they say, the way it used to be, if I was a kid, I was down the street, got in trouble, first of all, the person there would tell me that I shouldn't be doing that, and the next thing they do is they call my parents.

In today's society, we find that a lot of people don't even know the parents. They don't even know the kids in the neighborhood next to them. And that kind of environment allows for crime to occur. So what we're saying is get out there, get to know your neighbor.

There's a lot of good stats that say you know your neighbors, if you talk to your neighbors, know your neighbor's kids, if you talk to your neighbor's kids, that environment is going to be, one, that is not going to tolerate crime, and crime is going to go down in those neighborhoods. So the first thing that a block club can do is to get out there, open up that front door-- Don't sit in front of the TV set. Open up that front door-- and say hello to your neighbor.

GARY EICHTEN: Mr. Christopher, can you give us some idea of some of the activities that are already underway? Things that are being tried around Minnesota?

TRAVIS CHRISTOPHER: There are some things that are being tried around Minnesota, namely that are tailor-made to the community. We have everything from up in Becker County, Detroit Lakes area, where they've started a fish house crime watch over the winter to get people to know their neighbors.

Something else that has really been done over the last five years, and the Lieutenant, from Saint Paul, can echo my words on this, it's tailor-making our services, the police service, for the neighborhoods.

Besides the social cohesion that the Lieutenant talked about, also the community sanctions. what we found is that when you know your neighbor, know what belongs.

Unfortunately, in the police role, sometimes we don't know what exactly belongs in the neighborhood. The residents can tell us that.

So what National Night Out has done is brought out these events. Namely, for instance, in the suburbs, there is usually something called Light Up the Boulevard, where the neighborhoods get together, and they line up along a street with flashlights as a symbolic gesture to say goodbye to crime. Also, the neighborhood parties, et cetera, et cetera, and those usually last pretty much throughout the night.

But throughout the state of Minnesota, we've seen it grow over the last 10 years. It's been in Minneapolis now almost 10 years. And over these 10 years, we've seen it grow out into the suburbs, into the rural communities, where entire counties now are having county-wide celebrations, which really has an impact.

GARY EICHTEN: 13 years we've been at these National Nights Out, and I guess, the crime rate has actually gone down. But boy, the perception out there is that it's a lot worse than it used to be. That crime, certainly violent crime, has increased. And it seems like these efforts may not really be doing that much.

RICHARD GARDELL: Well, I think, first of all, it's really important to notice that the crime rate has gone down. And clearly, particularly in property crimes, where we think that block clubs and social cohesion can have the biggest impact, we've seen a drop-- a consistent drop in property crime.

So I think that the first thing that National Night Out should be is a celebration. A celebration that we know that when people come together, they can have an impact on the crime in their neighborhood. And that's really important.

The next one is that there's also a challenge. And the challenge is certainly the violence that's in our communities today. And we're going to look to that same cohesion and that same setting of neighborhood standards, that same partnership with the community and the police, to see what we can do about preventing and intervening in that violence. That's certainly the challenge for the future.

As we look at crime prevention programs, we need to look at youth intervention programs and violence prevention programs.

TRAVIS CHRISTOPHER: I just have to echo his words that when we have this perception problem, of a problem that is there, but it gets amplified, becomes this feeling of hopelessness in some neighborhoods. Many times, and I know in Saint Paul, I know in my community as well, people will call us and inquire about a neighborhood before they even move in. And many people are pleasantly surprised.

And I'm not saying, we don't have problems, but a lot of the problems do become amplified. And with this feeling of hopelessness, positive neighborhood action cannot begin until there's an interest that is sparked. And that's what Night Out is all about.

GARY EICHTEN: We're talking about National Night Out and crime prevention, in general. Our guests today, Saint Paul Police Lieutenant Richard Gardell and Travis Christopher, he's the president of the Minnesota Crime Prevention Association. He is with the Brooklyn Park Police Department.

If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call. Twin city area number is 227-6000. 227-6000. Outside the Twin Cities, the number would be 1-800-242-2828.

Sheldon is on the line from Minneapolis. Go ahead, sir.

AUDIENCE: Hi. I hate to be kind of a naysayer on some of this, but I was a victim of a burglary at our house a week and a half ago. I live in the Crocus Hills area in Saint Paul. Someone came in while we were sleeping at night, came into our-- cut a screen, came into our living room, took some stuff, went out the front door.

We know a lot of our neighbors. We've lived there for about a year, know a lot of our neighbors. This is the third crime on our block.

So one is just wondering if just getting to know your neighbors is going to do it. But the question part is, how do we avoid getting into a situation where we feel like we've got to have bars on our windows in relatively safe areas to keep from being victimized?

GARY EICHTEN: Lieutenant, you want to take a shot at that one?

RICHARD GARDELL: Yes, thank you.

A couple of things. I think what we started with is the basic idea, and that is that idea that getting to know your neighbors is going to help set that environment. That's going to reduce the amount of crime, not completely eliminate it, but reduce the amount of crime.

The next step, of course, is to educate people on what they can do in their homes to make their homes safer. For instance, frequently in the summertime when people leave the windows open, that's an easy access for a burglar. They'll cut a screen, the window will be open, and they're in the house in a short period of time.

So it's getting information out to people about how they can secure that window, so that it can be open a little bit, and then there's a locking device that'll keep it from going up the rest of the way, that would prevent an individual from climbing into a window. That kind of stuff also comes through the block clubs. It's that police community partnership where the police officers can attend the block club meetings and help educate people on what they can do in and around their home to make their home more difficult to be victimized.

And that's, I think, step number 2 that has to occur in the process. First, get to know your neighbors, then raise the level of education, the level of awareness that people have.

The next step in that awareness is after you've made your own home more safe, is to look out for your neighbors. Pay attention to those people that don't fit, as Travis had mentioned. Pay attention and report to the police suspicious activity when you see it occurring or when you notice it.

And then for us to report back to the community about patterns. He mentioned two or three burglaries in an area. We have a program where weekly, we look at the burglary analysis, and then we call the block club leaders to say, hey, there's been a residential burglary. There's been two residential burglaries in your area. This is what's occurring.

Let's get the word out. Let's flier the neighborhood. Let's let people know. Let's be aware of those trends so they can have that heightened awareness that will allow them to recognize what's going on and call the police.

GARY EICHTEN: What's your sense-- Why is it that more people don't get involved in crime prevention activities? Are they afraid of retribution? Don't they care? What have you found?

TRAVIS CHRISTOPHER: Well, what I found in my experience is that with the change in lifestyles, we're seeing more busier-- busier families, busier people. We're seeing people who think, let others handle it. We'll let the neighbors handle this. The police can handle whatever is left. That is not necessarily true.

And the last caller brought up a good point. Calling 911 is something that we always preach. You have to know what's in your neighborhood to report suspicious activities, things to that effect.

However, what we've seen, in coupling with this lifestyle, is we've seen is that there are TV shows out there that indicate, use the police only in an emergency sense. That is not necessarily true, and that perception is still out there.

I know around the state, wherever I travel to, these police and sheriffs offices are saying, look, if you see something out of place, don't hesitate to use our service. That is why we are there.

But that perception, of we only use the police in an emergency, something life-threatening, is still out there. And people wonder, well, what can myself and my neighbors do? That is part of the education that the lieutenant talked about.

It's just like having tools in the tool bag. The education part, the tools to fight crime in your neighborhood, and that's where the education steps in.

Another reason that we have seen as why people may not want to get involved is a genuine sense of I don't want to get to know my neighbors. I live in my house. I work 12-16 hour days. If that is the case, I don't have time for it.

What National Night Out and other events like this do is coordinate around schedules, so people can see their neighbors, and can see they can do some things. Again, it's fighting that perception barrier.

GARY EICHTEN: Joe, your question please.

AUDIENCE: This has, I think, more to do with the media coverage of the stuff that goes on than it does with the police proper. I have more respect for the Minneapolis cops than I have for the people who run the city or the people who run the newspapers and TV shows and stuff.

But what I wanted to comment on, as I understand it, most of the serious crime, as far as the place getting shot up and people getting killed and stuff, is done by the cocaine gangsters, and nobody seems to say much about it.

They say, "Ain't it terrible? There was another shooting," but nobody wants to really do anything about the people responsible.

There was an article in the paper by this [? Syl ?] [? Jones, ?] and he was ranting and raving about, quote, "guys who swagger around NRA conventions," unquote, and quote, "far-right militias," unquote.

While I have my disagreements with the NRA and with the so-called militias, but let's face it, they didn't have anything to do with that four-year-old girl getting killed, or with anybody else getting killed. The NRA would like nothing better than to put those gangsters behind bars.

And at least according to the liberals, the media would like to do something considerably more permanent-- the militias would like to do something considerably more permanent to them. And--

GARY EICHTEN: So you'd like to see a crackdown on drug dealers, drug-related crime and the like.

AUDIENCE: Well, it appears that they're the ones who are doing the crime. And I just wonder, why they're getting such an easy ride in the press and scapegoats, who aren't doing any crimes, like whether you like them or not, the NRA is not shooting anybody, whether you like them or not, the militia is not, generally speaking, shooting up the neighborhoods. I don't see why the media is carrying on about them instead of about the people that are actually doing the dirty work.

GARY EICHTEN: Well, I'm not sure these gentlemen can talk about why the media does what it does, but do we-- do we focus too broadly on criminal activity? Should we focus more specifically on the 40, 50, 100 bad guys out there and get them off the street, lieutenant?

RICHARD GARDELL: I think you need to-- You can't look at one approach. You have to look at many approaches.

We frequently talk about a three-pronged approach. That is prevention, intervention, and enforcement. We want to make sure that we're touching all the bases.

And what we're talking about with National Night Out is on the prevention end of that. What kinds of things can we do, as members of this community, all of us as members of this community, to remove that opportunity for a crime to occur?

Clearly, drugs have been influence in the society. And clearly when we start talking about the increase in violent crime, we have to look at the use of drugs, and the distribution of drugs, and the illegal distribution of drugs by gangs. Clearly, that's related to this violence. And that's a challenge for us in terms of preventing, first of all, users, because it's the user that's purchasing the drugs that's making it a lucrative business for a gangster.

And second of all, we have to look at all of the kinds of things that are going on in the distribution of those drugs that affect communities. The violence. When you have a crack house on your street-- By the way, it's often a good reason why a block club gets organized is to deal with a crack house that's just developed on their street-- when you have a crack house on your street, you have a myriad of issues.

You've got traffic coming, strangers in your neighborhood. You got groups harassing. Maybe you have use of alcohol and other kinds of things going on in the street. Plus, you've got the strange behavior that comes when someone is on crack cocaine, or methamphetamine, or whatever the drug might be.

So clearly, those are challenges again that we have been facing for some time and continue to face, as we look at the violent crime issues and preventing those violent crimes. But you have to take a broad approach. You can't take a singular-- one singular strategy, no matter which it is, is not going to work alone.

GARY EICHTEN: Let me ask you, in terms of people's response to crime, how does the media reporting on crime issues affect people's perception of crime? Does it make them feel less safe than they actually are?

TRAVIS CHRISTOPHER: Personally, I'm kind of mixed on that. I think number one is I think the media is a powerful social agent, especially in the Midwest.

What we found is that people take that and have them orchestrate their feelings towards crime. Many times, and I'm sure many crime prevention specialists around the state find that. They say, "Well, we've heard stories about what's happening in the media."

What's funny is we hear stats all the time. We hear from the FBI, UCR. You hear crime statistics from the Department of Justice, from our Department of Public Safety here in Minnesota.

The question to ask is to ask, well, how many people have not been a victim of crime? And I think we'd find a strong majority.

It has been proven, through the Police Executive Research Forum, that many of our crime victims, and also our crime offenders, are a small minority. However, what we're starting to do, and this is where the conflict comes in between the police and media, from the police point of view, we like to look at things objectively, and we like to do what the lieutenant said. Look at a broad approach to solve these problems.

We need to remain objective. We take a look at the crime, the offender. But now, we are beginning to look at the social agents, look at the background a little bit, which is helping us find these solutions. And the media has, like I say, has a social agent in this community, and they can assist with that.

The feelings are up to the individual, but it's interesting to see the effects of it, whether it be good or bad. And it can empower people, or it can put people a little bit lower into the strain theory of sociology, or they don't want to get involved.

GARY EICHTEN: Our caller also at least touched tangentially on the issue of guns. And there was an interesting study out, I think it was a week ago or two weeks ago, which seemed to indicate that those states where concealed weapons laws have been passed, crime has gone down. And that there is, in fact, a relationship between those two things. That if more people or if the bad guys at least had the sense that more of us were carrying concealed weapons, crime would go down.

Does that square with your experience, lieutenant?

RICHARD GARDELL: I think that's a very dangerous position to take. I think it's very dangerous to encourage the general citizenry to arm itself, especially to carry concealed weapons.

One thing we find in the police realm is that it still remains the number one way that a police officer gets assaulted by a firearm is by their own-- the police officer's own firearm. They brought the firearm to the fight, and somebody else took it away from them and used it against them. That is a dangerous thing.

When you have a trained police officer who's been trained how to keep that gun, how to use that gun. A citizen that's not trained, that's not practicing with it. Could very well be bringing a weapon to a situation that's going to escalate, and somebody's going to get killed. Probably the person that brought the gun there. So we have to be very careful, I think, with that.

I also think that that's not the answer. The answer is escalating the war, in terms of violence. The answer has to be in the prevention of that violence, in finding ways that we can give our young people, which, by the way, this is generally a young person issue, as I'm sure you've seen, the vast increase in violence is among our younger people. And we need to give those people better ways to resolve their issues.

We need to bring them out of the drug culture that is encouraging them to fight for turf and fight for drug and alcohol-- drug distribution centers, get them away from the gang influence, make that mentoring connection. Those are the kinds of things that are going to reduce the use of violent firearms.

The other thing is the drive-by shooting situation. I heard someone refer to it the other day as "urban terrorism," and it really is.

And you talk about having an impact on the perception of how safe somebody is. When an innocent bystander is hit by a round fired by a passing car that has a psychological effect on everybody. Everybody wonders if they're going to be the next person on the street, and it being an innocent bystander when something happens, and that's why gun interdiction, getting the guns off the street, away from-- out of the hands of the criminals who have the propensity to use them in those situations, is really an important part of it.

It's not really crime prevention. Now, we've moved into the intervention phases. Both Saint Paul and Minneapolis have very effective gun intervention programs to get some of those guns off the street and away from those who have a propensity to use them.

But I think that you also have to look at that. That's why more than one strategy needs to be used. We need to intervene at the same time we're trying to prevent.

GARY EICHTEN: We're talking about crime prevention here. This is National Night Out day and night around the country. About 30 million people are expected to get involved this evening, so we thought it would be interesting to find out what's going on in Minnesota.

Joining us here is Saint Paul Police Lieutenant Richard Gardell. He is with the Force Unit in the Saint Paul Police Department.

Travis Christopher is with us. He is a Crime Prevention Specialist with the Brooklyn Park Police Department. He is the President of the Minnesota Crime Prevention Association.

And if you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call. Twin City area number is 227-6000-- 227-6000. Outside the Twin Cities, you can reach us toll-free at 1-800-242-2828.

Carolyn is calling from Saint Paul with a question or comment. Hi.

AUDIENCE: Hi. I'm calling because I'm looking at the prevention area of crime control.

In our neighborhood, it's a pretty close-knit neighborhood. But even in our neighborhood, there's still more of a reaction to crime rather than a motion for prevention.

We found that our block club meetings are not as well-attended as our block parties. And I guess-- Well, my first just comment, I think, is with Saint Paul Police Community Services is-- and block parties actually in terms of meetings are very effective ways just to get together and actually conduct pretty much the same kind of business that's done at a block club meeting.

But the community services has kind of established a remarkable number of red tape types of procedures that you have to fill out to organize a block club and get your streets blocked off. And it's not that cheap either, for people who don't have a lot of means to organize in the summertime or in the fall.

But basically, getting back to the three-pronged approach, I'm wondering, how effective preventing crimes is? Is there any kind of proof or any kind of documentation that would say that neighbors who can get together and report crime can actually prevent things from happening in their neighborhood, as things kind of filter in to the neighborhoods from the crime-ridden areas of town?

GARY EICHTEN: Mr. Christopher?

TRAVIS CHRISTOPHER: This brings up two very big issues. And number one is, is, I agree. Sometimes crime meetings are less attended than social events, these crime watch picnics and barbecues, et cetera.

What some cities have tried, and we've tried it in Brooklyn Park, is having these meetings in non-traditional means. Namely, one way, in the multi-housing areas, when you have 18 to 24 houses and homes right next to each other.

What we've seen is we've seen in these non-traditional methods, namely, having a crime watch meeting in a hallway of an apartment building, we've seen them more attended. The reason being is because people take more ownership in saying, hey, this is just for my apartment house building. This is just for us. This is how it gets involved.

What this can lead to, and we have seen evidence that crime has actually gone down when we've seen a stable population. My experience in the multi-housing areas has proven that when the residents stay in the neighborhood, when they stay in that community, we've seen that the neighbors feel more familiar with where they're living, and they are more willing to come out to crime watch events or block club events.

What that has done, again, has led to that stable population. People feel safer because they have a face behind that address number, they have a face on behind that driveway and garage door. And that makes it so that people will in turn use the education and the three-pronged approach, that the lieutenant talked about. They use that, and we've seen that the crime has indeed gone down.

We've seen a higher call rate in service or non-crime-type calls. Things such as, can the police come and check out this person who's been hanging out on my block for an hour and a half? When those calls go up, matched with the stable population, we have indeed seen crime calls decrease.

RICHARD GARDELL: A couple of other things too, just in terms of if you're looking for actual studies. There was a study out of Chicago by a researcher by the name of [? Gerbino, ?] I believe, who looked at the difference in a couple of neighborhoods who were demographically like, but had different levels of social cohesion. And they measured that by how many neighbors you knew on your block, how often you talked to them, et cetera. Other than that, the neighborhoods were relatively like.

The neighborhood that had less social cohesion had much higher crime rate, dramatically higher crime rates, than that neighborhood that had a higher level of social cohesion. So there's, I think, some evidence, reasonable evidence to show that the block club approach of getting to know your neighbor and changing that is definitely one to go-- is the way to go.

Also, there was a recent article in the Pioneer Press that looked at a grid in the Summit University area-- Our grids are 10 block areas-- in the Summit University area, and documented a significant decrease in crime over the course of the last couple of years at that area. And when they talked to the neighbors, one of the things that they credited that to was neighborhood organizing and neighborhood organizations.

As you know, in Saint Paul, we're very lucky. We have a district council system. We have 17 district councils that are very active. They do primary block club organizing in their neighborhoods. And as a result of that, we sort of have a system that's tailored to the neighborhood and also, addressing some citywide issues, which I think is a more effective way of getting that crime prevention to take effect in a particular neighborhood.

GARY EICHTEN: If the bad guys are chased out of one neighborhood because everybody's well organized, does that just increase problems in another neighborhood?

RICHARD GARDELL: I think it can. There certainly is that potential for the old-- the balloon thing-- If you push on one side, it's going to come out on another-- which is again a reason why it has to be a coordinated effect. It has to be one in which each of the neighborhoods have an opportunity to organize, have an opportunity for resources.

And then also, we have to look at what we're doing to solve, not just push the bad guy, but to solve the root problems. What are the issues that are causing the crime to occur in that particular neighborhood?

TRAVIS CHRISTOPHER: Gary, if I may, I just want to piggyback on what he said here.

On the basic level of that question, we're seeing it, namely in sister cities such as Moorhead, Minnesota, Fargo, North Dakota.

Moorhead tried a brand new initiative to try to solve the crime problems in their neighborhood. They have seen a little bit of that displacement, and what they're seeing is they're seeing calls from surrounding cities saying, how did you handle this? How can we do what you did? And that's what's starting to happen.

But lieutenant, again, makes a great point is when block clubs start, it's not just the one block club that has the results. When you start getting block clubs that are next to each other, whether it be adjacent to, whether it be the block over, whether it be even half a mile down the road, when you start seeing them form, we start seeing that social cohesion again. And that's when we start seeing the overall results. How many occurrences are happening in our city, and they're not moving. That's when we start getting all these people working together.

GARY EICHTEN: Shannon, your question, please.

AUDIENCE: Yeah. Actually, mine is sort of twofold question here.

As far as the National Night Out, I know this-- it appears to me that this will work well in like suburban cities. But as far as the inner cities, where there's a lot of social disparate-- social and economic despair, how-- I mean, is there any sort of effort being pushed forth to emphasize-- I mean, to really go after like inner city, since that's where most of the crime is being committed? Or--

And also, there's another question. See, I'm a U of M student over here, and I generally have friends out in Minnetonka and stuff that I visit.

And I know there's neighborhood watches and stuff like that, but there's also been times where I've been harassed and stuff like that by police, just because of I look suspicious out in that sort of neighborhood.

Well, how would you go around that where this neighborhood watch stuff doesn't have a harassing effect upon people who are just visiting different cities, visiting friends in other cities?

GARY EICHTEN: OK. Good questions. First of all, how active and how effective have these Night Out efforts been in the inner cities?

TRAVIS CHRISTOPHER: I guess, I just want to answer on the Minneapolis side of things. I know that the Minneapolis Safe Unit, who were part of the inventors of the Minnesota version of the National Night Out, along with Saint Paul, have tackled more issues than just crime. I think one of the definitions of crime prevention and crime watch has broadened out now.

We are starting to work with, namely Social Services. We've started working with other efforts and other programs we can bring in to address the other community issues, because 10, 15 years ago, there really is no start date on block clubs officially, but early '70s is when we're starting to see it-- see records.

Well, back then it was you tackle the property crimes, you tackle the burglaries and the thefts, and don't even bother with suspicious activity at this time. Now, it's come to the forefront. And what crime watch and block clubs have started to do is, again, try to come up with these other issues.

How can we solve the nuisance abatement? How can we solve the problem with that owner or manager down the street?

In regard to the actual calling of suspicious activity and this harassing effect, I know the one thing, Association-wide now-- putting on my state Association hat-- one of the things that we try to do is we say, you need to find out what doesn't belong, but you have to figure out why is the user of that property there?

One of the things we used to try to do is we used to go out and say, well, make sure you call in everything because everything needs to get tackled, and everything needs to be solved. That's not necessarily the case, and it does get frustrating.

But that is something that we try to educate through the education that was talked about earlier is saying, know your neighbors. When you know them, you get to know what visiting cars belong. Things to that effect.

And it all goes back to those neighborhood anchors. Minnesota Monthly magazine just had an article in their latest edition on the anchors of neighborhoods, and it came down to sometimes, it's nice to recognize the vehicle. Sometimes it's nice to recognize a visitor or something to that effect. And that's where it all comes into play through education.

GARY EICHTEN: Lieutenant, what about this? I'm specifically interested in this idea of people being picked on because they look to be suspicious, and they're not suspicious at all. And I imagine it would particularly come in terms of racial issues.

RICHARD GARDELL: Clearly, that's a question, and it's something that we always have to be concerned about.

What we generally do with block clubs and our block club training is say we have to focus on behavior. It's not the appearance of an individual that makes that individual suspicious. It is what that individual is doing.

If that individual is someone that's a stranger to the neighborhood and is stopped in a yard, or is going up to a door, and then comes out, and then goes back into another yard, and comes out, they start to see a pattern of some sort of behavior that says to them, this isn't right. This doesn't fit a pattern of what we would consider normal behavior. It's not something-- It needs to be checked out.

Now, the other piece of that is-- So the first piece of that is you focus on behavior. You don't focus on the appearance of an individual. You focus on what the behavior is. That's really important, and we stress that very much.

The next piece of that is when the officer comes out, they're just coming out to check out suspicious behavior. It's a conversation with the individual. And we would hope that wouldn't be perceived as harassment, because an officer came up, and said, "Hey, how are you doing? We got a complaint. Can you just tell me why you're here, or what you're doing?" And that's the end of the conversation.

The officer has that responsibility based on the reported suspicious behavior. So we would hope that both through officer training and through the training of the citizens who are reporting this, that we focus on behavior, and we do that in a polite and responsible manner, so that it doesn't ever get to the harassment stage that we're talking-- that was mentioned here.

I also want to just say, in terms of inner city neighborhoods, certainly I represent the department that serves inner city neighborhoods. And the grid that I had mentioned earlier in the Summit University area is an inner city grid, and certainly shows that it can be very effective at reducing crime in inner city neighborhoods through neighborhood organizing and police community partnerships.

GARY EICHTEN: Dave, your question please.

AUDIENCE: Yeah. See, my question is, these guys that are talking here, I bet you they all live in the suburbs. I know 60% or 70%-- 70% to 80% of your Saint Paul, Minneapolis, policemen live in the suburbs, and they're discussing inner city crime, and they have no idea. They put in their eight hours, and they beat it out to the suburbs.

GARY EICHTEN: Well--

AUDIENCE: Including you. I bet you live in the suburbs.

GARY EICHTEN: Well, it doesn't matter where I live. Lieutenant--

AUDIENCE: Well, it sure does. You guys haven't got no African-Americans on there discussing-- discussing-- I live on-- I live right in the inner city on the Dayton's Bluff area.

You guys don't-- You're three white guys. These guys-- You're batting your gums, and what good does it do?

GARY EICHTEN: Well, we hope it does some good.

Lieutenant, you work in the city here. Do you live here?

RICHARD GARDELL: I do. I'm an East Side resident, also.

Was the caller's name Dave?

GARY EICHTEN: Yeah.

RICHARD GARDELL: Dave, I'm also an East Side resident, born and raised here in Saint Paul, and been on the police department for 20 years, so I know a little bit about the crime picture. And like I said, born and raised on the East Side.

GARY EICHTEN: OK. Nick, your question please.

AUDIENCE: Hi, there. I'd just like to start off by thanking you for having this conversation today.

In White Bear Lake, we have a group of about 20 of us who have been coordinating neighborhood groups and coordinating citywide for National Night Out. This whole conversation, I think, is great because in years past, we've only noticed that National Night Out has been mentioned the day after that, it's occurred.

There's a group of us that we've been working for the better part of a year, trying to get people aware of this, trying to get our neighbors aware, and these kind of conversations, I think, have been very good.

To address the previous caller's comments. In White Bear Lake, they have the city broken up into what are called quads. And in majority of these cases, the officers actually live in the neighborhood. We have an officer who is responsible for our quad, and it's integral to that officer to get to know every one of us, and for us to get to know that officer. And I think that whole turnabout, what we have going here in White Bear Lake, has been extremely beneficial.

GARY EICHTEN: Statewide, Mr. Christopher, does that generally work out better if the police officer lives right there in the community? Does that really seem to make much difference?

TRAVIS CHRISTOPHER: I think we're looking at one variable here on the officer's job, and that's dedication. And I think-- I'm sure in Saint Paul, everybody I've met has had the same amount of dedication, namely the last caller-- previous said eight hours and leave. It's not necessarily the case.

I think every officer, at least in the crime prevention realm, Force Unit realm, or community policing areas need to have this level of dedication. If living in the neighborhood boosts it, fantastic.

But what this level of dedication is seen by the residents, and this caller from white Bear Lake has seen this, and that is what we've seen. If the dedication goes into the output of the performance of the job, and that's what we've started to see statewide, at the very least.

GARY EICHTEN: We're talking about crime prevention efforts. This is the 13th Annual National Night Out Against Crime being observed-- Well, it's already underway. Activities are already underway. And of course, tonight people are being urged to get out of their homes and meet their neighbors and get involved. And so today, we're talking about crime prevention efforts.

Our guests today, Travis Christopher, President of the Minnesota Crime Prevention Association. He is with the Brooklyn Park Police Department.

Saint Paul Police Lieutenant Richard Gardell is here. He is the commander of the Force Unit in the Saint Paul Police Department.

If you'd like to join our conversation, 227-6000 is the Twin City area number. 227-6000. Outside the Twin Cities, the number is 1-800-242-2828.

Caller from Crystal. John, go ahead.

AUDIENCE: Good afternoon. I'm enjoying the conversation, but I do want to bring up a point, and maybe ask for some input on this.

It has to do with, what are called, consensual acts, and sometimes they're referred to as crimes. And my whole attitude toward it is that there is a premise of-- that an individual has a certain freedom and control over their own body.

And the key that I see with society and the media primarily has created something monstrous out of things that could be dealt with on a much more gentle manner. The consensual acts people do between themselves are self-responsible acts. I'm talking about adults, not children, and not where children are liable to be involved.

But if you do something to your own body, and you own your own body-- The government has no claim of ownership. We're not the slaves of the local government, federal government, or of any judges. We own ourselves.

And what a person-- If you decide to eat a pound of butter today, there's no law against it. If you want to drink a quart of vodka, there's no law against it. If you want to go and cohabit with somebody, and there's money that changes hands suddenly, you have a consensual act between two people, and now, it's suddenly illegal.

I think it's more a moral thing than it is even an ethical or a political one. And it's in the wrong venue when it falls into the domain where the police have to act in ways that, I think, many of them don't even want to. And I would just like some observations on it.

Number one, the primary thing is, I do own my body, and what many people call consensual crimes, I consider consensual acts, and not crimes at all. Thank you.

GARY EICHTEN: Prostitution, I guess, is what he's talking about.

RICHARD GARDELL: Well, I think that prostitution, and we can talk about whether it should be legal or illegal, that would be an interesting debate.

However, I think if you look at what kind of price people pay who are involved in the trade, in the prostitution situation, it's certainly a situation where government has a good reason to be involved in trying to help people get out of that realm.

I'm afraid, the idea-- the idea of consensual acts and you can do anything to your body opens up a lot of things. For instance, drug use. What about-- What about suicide? That's certainly doing something with your body.

There are lots of different crimes where the government says these are acts that certainly could be done by an adult, but because there's a higher good, the public good that needs to be protected, and they are not for the public good, we are going to make them against the law. And again, we could debate it all day long. But I think, the bottom line is they are against the law, and we're here to see if we can enforce those public standards.

GARY EICHTEN: Next caller is from Cambridge. Patricia.

AUDIENCE: I live in the country, and I don't even know my neighbors in the fact that I see them. I know who they are, and what they do, but they live off the roads.

And how would you have a block party or even be able to have a crime prevention when you can't even see their homes? I mean, I do know people in the community, but just not real close, because of the fact that we're so far away.

GARY EICHTEN: Mr. Christopher?

TRAVIS CHRISTOPHER: Sure. I have to say, from Cambridge, I was just a visitor to your fine city, so it's nice to hear from Cambridge.

Something again, I spoke of it earlier, is that tailor-made approach in each jurisdiction. And I know up in that area, just north of the Metropolitan area, what they have actually physically done is the person, again, who has the dedication to start a crime prevention program or even a crime watch program, has actually gone to each-- If we can use the word-- farmstead, and actually met everybody. And they actually have done it on a more wider scale.

In block watch, you concentrate on the block or a couple of blocks. What they have actually done is they've actually done taken miles of road, and actually have said, we're going to get together and just talk about issues, whether it be crime or whatever.

This caller sounds like that she's actually ahead of the game. Knows who's around the area, knows who to call on in case there's something in the area that just doesn't look right or something they see in the distance. That is one step ahead of the game, and it requires a tailor-made approach again. And that goes down to getting things on a wider scale.

When you have, say, someone who's out there who owns 640 acres of square mile of land, obviously you're not going to have the logistics to have a block watch. But again, it comes down to contacting the local law enforcement agency and find out what tailor-made approaches are there.

It does work-- It does work, especially out in the country areas where we've seen different types of crime, namely things relating to livestock, even timber theft, we're starting to get reports of. Items such as that, it's a different form of education, and again, it goes back to that tailor-made approach.

GARY EICHTEN: Jerry is on the line from Minneapolis, with a question. Go ahead. Jerry?

Well, we lost Jerry. Let's go to our next caller. Go ahead. You're on the air.

AUDIENCE: Yes.

GARY EICHTEN: Go ahead.

AUDIENCE: I was interested in the conversation earlier on the private use of firearms and concealed carry. When you look at the statistics from some of the places, like Dade County in Florida, where the crime rate dropped dramatically after it became easier to obtain a concealed carry permit, I don't think anyone's in favor of every member of the populace being armed. But there is something to it when those statistics are that dramatic.

Is there some compromise? Is there some area, perhaps training for people? There's something to it because it works in some places. what's your-- I'd like to hear a bit more about that, your opinions on that.

GARY EICHTEN: Lieutenant.

RICHARD GARDELL: Well, first of all, I'm not sure that we're in a position to say that it works at this particular time. I don't think there's been enough time passed from between the time that the law went into effect, and what the crime rates are. We don't know what the other factors are in those communities that may well be reducing crime, in addition to the fact that they happened to pass a law that allowed for a more liberal obtaining of a permit to carry a concealed weapon. So I think it would be premature to jump to a conclusion that it works.

And then second of all, I can just tell you that in my experience, that if you want to reduce violence, you don't increase violence. You don't add guns and weapons to the pot, and then say, that's how we're going to reduce violence. That indeed is likely to increase violence, not reduce it. And we need to look at ways that we remove those weapons, not we add more weapons to the pot.

GARY EICHTEN: Let me ask you this. Are there many examples just in the city of Saint Paul, where you work, many examples of people successfully defending themselves from a criminal act by using a weapon?

RICHARD GARDELL: Well, as I think back, I'm sure that there are situations where people have effectively defended themselves from criminal acts, both in terms of fighting off offenders, and/or running from offenders, and/or locking themselves in places. We've all seen in situations where people have gotten to an inner room and locked themselves in and called the police. Lots of that kind of stuff.

I can't say that-- I mean, I know that there has been a couple of times where like in a bar robbery or something like that, where the owner has produced a weapon. But, I'm not coming up with a specific example at this particular time to talk about that.

GARY EICHTEN: OK. Travis?

TRAVIS CHRISTOPHER: I guess, you just have to look at the other side of the coin, as well. And I agree with what he's saying, is that in Homestead, Florida, in 1993, there can be cases of where someone does try to defend with a weapon, and doesn't have the training, what have you, and in turn, are the ones who get hurt. And I think those are other instances, we need to examine when we make that decision.

GARY EICHTEN: We're talking about crime prevention today. If you'd like to join our conversation, we've got a few minutes left, should be able to get you on the air. 227-6000 is our Twin City area number. 227-6000. Outside the Twin Cities, 1-800-242-2828.

Bob, go ahead.

AUDIENCE: Yes. My girlfriend's car just recently got stolen Thursday, and the Saint Paul Police recovered it Friday morning with someone in the car. My keys got stolen from my place of work about a week before the car theft. The person that they took downtown told them that they had traded crack cocaine for the use of this car. Well, my girlfriend and I do not do crack cocaine, and this and that.

Consequently, this person was let go. Now, my question is, what-- I'm not satisfied with that. I'm not-- As a matter of fact, it kind of angers me. It kind of gives me the, "What's the use?", deal.

I'd like to know if a person isn't satisfied with the action that police are taking on a particular situation, what can they do to repeal or to further the cause?

GARY EICHTEN: OK. Lieutenant.

RICHARD GARDELL: Sure. A couple of things.

First of all, if it's the conduct of the police officer that you're talking about, the recommendation would be to first go to that officer's supervisor. And generally speaking, that's easily identifiable in the police department by calling and asking for the supervisor of the officer that you're dealing with, either through badge number, or name, or whatever identifier you have, and to get that immediate correction for whatever behavior that you want.

We also have a civilian review board and an internal affairs process that will look at serious complaints against police officers. But in your particular case, it sounds like also another person that might be involved in the mix here is the prosecutor.

Our role after making the arrest is to be the gatherer of facts. We gather the facts about the information, what they tell us, et cetera, and we present that case to a prosecutor, who screens it and decides whether or not, the person will be charged.

In the case of an auto theft, it would be a county attorney making the decision as to whether or not they would prosecute the individual. So it may well be that you need to talk also to the prosecutor in this case, if indeed your dissatisfaction is the fact that the person didn't get charged.

If you're unhappy with the facts, the way they were gathered, that would be the police officer. If you're unhappy with the decision not to charge the person, that'd be the prosecutors. And again, if you just call the police department number or talk to the officer that you've been dealing with, they could direct you both to the investigator and to the prosecutor who reviewed your case.

GARY EICHTEN: Next caller is from Winona. Jim.

AUDIENCE: Hello, sir. Our daughter lives in South Minneapolis, and we worry a lot about her safety.

In her apartment complex on South Aldrich, the people know one another and have banded together to report suspicious activities. And in the most recent case, involving a persistent peeper-- We think that's all that he was-- the police were informed, and they, after handling the first incident, said to the group that they should simply take care of it themselves, but not to let themselves get reported.

I would like to know how people who have banded together to try to protect their neighborhood can keep from getting discouraged, and can, perhaps, further cooperation with the police department so that there's more cooperation between the two groups?

GARY EICHTEN: Travis Christopher?

TRAVIS CHRISTOPHER: I just have one answer to that, working in multi-housing myself. And number one is, pretty much, is trying to find out, and I know it's easy to get discouraged in this case, this is one of those answers where you have to say many instances are the ones who dictate the answer.

With that, what I mean is that time can be the answer. It doesn't take one case to discourage a group, and it does, but those situations that we need to come back and celebrate small victories.

Something else, and it sounds as if again, with this caller, that his daughter is ahead of the game with her apartment building, is bring the management and the owner in, because with that, we have this feeling of having more power to solve these problems.

In the case of that statement, where solve it yourself, in those cases, it comes down to well, we need to get the information back to solve this problem in the future on a long-term basis. It is easy to get discouraged, but part of this has to be is finding out the small victories. Namely, trying to find out, well, look, we have someone new in the neighborhood. Let's try to introduce ourselves to this new neighbor.

When we start celebrating the small victories and start keeping the steam engine rolling on this crime prevention train, we're seeing that future instances such as this, which may seem minor to some, are kind of shoved in the back, and they aren't brought up very often, and the group continues.

GARY EICHTEN: Should the group get together and confront the suspect here?

RICHARD GARDELL: I don't think that it's necessary for the block club to confront the suspect. I think what we're talking about here is a real important part of this whole idea, and that's police community partnership. And it sounds like there's some frustration here, and I'm not sure why the advice was given, to handle it yourself.

But my sense would be that there ought to be a connection between that block club and the community. There must be-- excuse me-- and the police department. There must be a liaison person that you can reach out to. Someone either through the Safe Unit, the people that organize that block club, someone in the Minneapolis Police Department that you can reach out to and say, this is the information we're being given. Can you give us another avenue?

Maybe it's just a matter of gathering enough evidence to get the person charged, understanding it may well be a misdemeanor. But enough misdemeanors, as Travis said, if the person is charged enough times with misdemeanors, they may get the message and stop the behavior.

It sounds like you need to reach out to a liaison in the police department and say, we're frustrated with this. We're not happy with this advice. Can you give me another avenue? Can you give me something else to do? And I suspect that there are people in safe in the Safe Unit at Minneapolis Police Department that could give you other avenues.

GARY EICHTEN: Anne's is on the line from Edina, with a question. Go ahead, please.

AUDIENCE: Yes. I attended a block party. We were informed of various crimes that were happening in the area. I asked if we were ever advised when the person had been apprehended and the sentencing or retribution that may have been done. We're told, no, we're not advised of that. What's the logic?

GARY EICHTEN: OK. Why aren't people informed as to what actually happens, how these cases are disposed of?

TRAVIS CHRISTOPHER: In that situation, pretty much, I can't answer with that. I know in some cities, they actually have tried in cases where there was a major crime on the block-- let's say we have three or four burglaries on the block, with this liaison that lieutenant talked of or some contact who formulated the block club, who helped get neighbors together, or have these crime watch meetings, actually have come back and said thanks to your efforts, this is what happened in a more positive sense.

So there are efforts to do that. I know in the law through crime victim rights, and the Lieutenant can elaborate on this, through crime victim rights, the victim can be notified of violent crimes can be notified when the offender is released and items to that effect. But there are efforts out there statewide. If there is, say, a major crime on a block, that the block actually helped bring the closure, there are attempts to say this is the final result of your efforts.

RICHARD GARDELL: It's also been my experience-- I can't speak for the prosecuting attorneys in Saint Paul, Ramsey County-- it's been my experience that they've been very cooperative with the victims, in that if the victim lets them know that they want information as to what the final disposition is, that they will share that final disposition.

Some of the problem is that because the legal system, it may well be one to three months between the time the person is arrested and there's actually a final disposition on the case. And in that period of time, of course, there's a bunch of things that can happen, including the victim or maybe the neighbors moving on and not being as interested in what the final disposition is three months later or four months later.

So there's-- sometimes there's that just that time factor that takes place. But generally speaking, if the victim has indicated that they'd like to know what final disposition is, the prosecutors have been good at notifying them.

TRAVIS CHRISTOPHER: I just think one last point is that sometimes when the neighborhood does do what it's educated to do, is namely work with the police and work with other communities, we try to find a quick solution and a quick fix. And just use an example, drug cases, that they do take a while. This is one of our big dilemmas in the crime prevention world is that there is no quick fix, it does take time to do, and that's why I feel the frustration of people when they bring that issue up.

GARY EICHTEN: Just about out of time. Paul, a quick question from you, please.

AUDIENCE: I lived in the Chicago Lake area for about five years, and I personally had my place broken into twice and robbed. And I had, on two occasions, two people shot to death on our sidewalk. Obviously, that's a very violent part of the city.

However, what's happening in that part of the city is where the threat, and no one can say for sure, what gang members are from which gangs, and whether they are not-- whether or not they actually are gang members, but that seems to be the case. And it does seem to be that the gangs have taken over in those areas.

And the threat is so extreme. I mean, the payback for reporting on these gangs can be awfully severe. And I think, from what I noticed, is that people are very scared. They're very scared to report gang violence. They're very afraid to get involved in anything that has to do with gangs because it seems that they--

GARY EICHTEN: OK.

AUDIENCE: OK, sorry.

GARY EICHTEN: OK, we're just about out of time. How do people who are confronted with that real serious problem come to grips with this without getting hurt?

RICHARD GARDELL: There are many ways of reporting and staying anonymous. We have a system in Saint Paul, where you can report crimes, or you can deal with, for instance, my unit and stay anonymous, so that we can work on those issues.

The other part of it is it's a paradox. But as all of us, as community members, have to take some responsibility in saying we're going to get involved, and that's that police community partnership piece. We'll work to keep you anonymous as best we can and keep you protected and confidential.

On the other hand, you've got to understand that sometimes you've just got to stand up, and say, I need to tell the police what I saw, or I need to tell the police what I know in order for them to get a successful prosecution and have an impact.

GARY EICHTEN: Thanks so much for coming by. I really appreciate it.

Oh, a quick question here. Burglar alarms, are they effective? Crime prevention, yay or nay?

TRAVIS CHRISTOPHER: The alarm is only effective when it's used.

GARY EICHTEN: And those deals that you put on your car, do they help prevent car thefts?

RICHARD GARDELL: Oh, you're talking about the club or--

GARY EICHTEN: Yeah, any of those things.

RICHARD GARDELL: I always have heard a joke where the best thing to do to keep your bicycle is to park it next to a better one. I would say if you're a little safer than the next guy, you're a little safer.

GARY EICHTEN: Thanks a lot for coming by. Our guests today, Saint Paul Police Lieutenant Richard Gardell and Travis Christopher, who's president of the Minnesota Crime Prevention Association.

This is National Night Out Against Crime. 30 million people are expected to participate.

Thanks for tuning in today. A reminder that today's programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by listeners who volunteer their time for Minnesota Public Radio.