Southwest for the Twin Cities Breezy and warmer with a high around 62 it's sunny around the region in Rochester is 56° Duluth reporting 51. It's 56 in st. Cloud and 57 in the Twin Cities. That's news from Minnesota Public Radio on Karen. Bartik. I'm Gary this week. We're presenting a series of reports from around the country on domestic abuse its causes and how it's being dealt with it's a major problem in Minnesota and indeed around the country. And today we're going to take a closer. Look at how the legal system deals with domestic abuse joining us here in the studio is Al Hara Susan Hennepin County prosecutor. He spent eight years Prosecuting domestic abuse cases. And in fact was the head of the County's domestic abuse prosecution team and also joining us today is Loretta Frederick's who is legal counsel for the national battered women's Justice project, which is based in Minneapolis.We also invite you to join our conversation today. If you've got some questions or comments about how the legal system handles are domestic abuse cases. Give us a call Twin City area number is 227-6002 276 thousand if you're calling from outside the Twin Cities, you can reach his toll free at 1-800 to +422-828-227-6000 or one 800-242-2828. Thanks for coming by I really appreciate it. Thank you. And we certainly have heard more about this issue in the last several years has the incidence of domestic abuse been increasing in Minnesota and around the country, or is it just that we're hearing more about it.I would say that it's probably more that we're hearing more about it. It's something that was often not reported to police which is at least in my line of work the way that I learn about it. I don't think it was reported as often in the past. And I think that sometimes when it was reported it maybe wasn't treated as something that was a criminal justice matter and it may have been categorized as simply a family dispute and not brought to the attention of prosecution at least. So I think the incentives is about the same keep hearing some shocking statistics. Can you give us an idea of how many people are victims of abuse every year?well, there is the problem of under-reporting and that kind of thing, but the studies have been done around the country for the last probably 20 years are come close to saying that the relationships marital and and other intimate relationships have roughly the same levels of violence across cultures and other other divisions in our culture and that the average is around a third to a half of all relationships have some kind of violence within them in a higher percentage of those than one might think are fairly serious forms of violence violence constitute a threat of a physical harm serious imminent threat of a physical harm, but more often that were talking about actual assault that is a physical contact at 7 harmful nature causes bodily injury of some kind or theirtime standards in Minnesota for dealing with a domestic abuse case the short answer is no we have participated in development of model prosecution plans, but those are not binding on prosecutors nor are they biting on Police Department's for the procedures that they would have to respond to domestic. So there aren't any real firm standards. Obviously, there are guidelines in criminal law at least which is my experience. So there are guidelines in the nature of the statutes which prohibit specific activity and they say that certain activity constitutes a specific type of crime. So we react within the framework of those statutes, but there's a lot of discretion for prosecutors police officers and everyone else who's in the system. Is that good or bad? Well, I suppose you can argue that point a little bit. I think that discretion is necessary. There are so many subjective factors in any case that we look at when we're considering criminal prosecution that you really have to use a certain amount of discretion. I think what may be is a little bit of a weakness in that sense is that it's probably appropriate to have a standard of sorts across the state sold it on both the criminal justice system is responding fairly and equally whether you live in Minneapolis or Mankato or Bemidji and at the same time, we can benefit from the experiences of people in other jurisdictions as to how they go about things. We drop on each other and trying to train and develop those sort of standard. So I think a standard approach is appropriate but I'm to have real specific standards would be really almost impossible in this kind of a a setting in a criminal setting. That is we keep hearing about these mandatory arrest. I was going to add that that law enforcement is another area in which there can be in our standards for Private Practice proper law enforcement response. And in Minnesota. There is a line has been in place for some years that requires every law enforcement agency in the state to have a policy a written policy of that lays out how they will respond to domestic violence cases. I'm some jurisdictions have a mandatory arrest policy Minnesota lot is not require that accept in protection order violation cases, but the mandatory arrest sort of vs. Pro arrest. Controversy can like in terms of which of the two after is a preferable approach is is a discussion that's held in in over and over again all over the country. The theory behind mandatory rest is that I wanted officer has probable cause to believe a crime's been committed the officer should lose his or her discretion about whether or not to arrest their being a public policy in favor of always arresting the proper rest camp on the other hand would would say that where there is probable cause to believe a crime has been committed an officer should seriously consider and wood and the preferable response would be to make an arrest but that is not mandated and that there is romaine some discretion on the part of the officer to leave the party in the home or to cite the party or whatever Elder options are my face. So it's still up up in the air around the country. In fact in terms of which is the better approach. crimes traditionally handed like I handled a robbery say I don't think you do have the same kind of debate the thing about domestic. That's so difficult is that by definition the party's know each other. They have a relationship of some sort. They often times are living in the same home and sew in the police respond to a domestic type of call and they have restored the peace if there was if you will a breach of the peace and they've got things call known. They can't just leave not really in good conscience in most cases because then they're leaving the people together knowing that it's been a volatile situation and their presence may have restored the piece but when they go out the door, there's always a very good chance that disturbance would arise again a lot of domestics arise in situations where there's been some sort of alcohol or substance abuse involved and people's inhibition certainly are lowered when they're under the influence of some sort of drug in the chances of more violence are very great. Robbery situation that people usually don't know each other they 10 more often at least to be strangers. Whether it's a convenience store robbery on the street that sort of thing if the police arrive in a robbery, they will generally arrest a person to if they believe they have probable cause to believe that a robbery was committed the same thing as little Loretta said is true in a domestic situation the problem that arises more domestic is the police have to try and sort out what happened people may have very different versions of the same event are they could very often arrive at a scene and see that both the man and the woman have bruising or some indication that they've been struck by the other party. It's hard for them to determine whether that was done in self-defense whether it was an aggressive act and so forth and the idea of mutual arrest is not one that's encouraged but you can certainly have situations where they arrived at the scene and then they consider arresting both parties that raises a lot of other implications. The critical piece about the response in Minnesota and an effect that sent the other states have done this to elsweyr the other critical pieces that taking of the onus for bringing criminal action off of the victim and placing it on the law enforcement prosecution system by which is then supposed to look at the facts and figure out if something should be done the problem that we had and everywhere prior to change and I'll on the late seventies was that unless because many of these crimes are considered misdemeanors low-level type of crime. The general rule is that for all other kinds of crimes an officer has to either witness the has missed me to take place or go get a warrant before arresting and of course that man said these misdemeanor domestic assault never ever resulted in a rest because we are a few whatever take place in front of an officer and there's no time to go get a warrant because his else and it's you know, it's too late by then. So I'm so the owner. Really shifted bye-bye policy in the state off of the victim to make something happen to enforce the laws that that say you can't beat up somebody live with and has been placed on Forest minutes of agencies take the position that if that only should be placed so squarely on law enforcement that they shouldn't even have discretion in deciding whether or not to rest once they find probable cause legal system handles domestic abuse cases part of our special Series this week on this issue, and if you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call or gas today, and I'll harisu is a Hennepin County prosecutor Loretta. Frederick's is with us. She's legal counsel for The Battered Women's Justice project number to call with your questions and comments to 276 thousand to 276 thousand. I'll try the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll-free at 1 802-422-8284 first college from Buffalo, March. Go ahead place. Personal abuse and we have had two cases in the screens County courts it we're not 518 vs. But we're being hurt under families some protection orders and we have the Supreme Court has given Advocates of special standing under that statute. These happened to be custody and dissolution cases, but we've had the court order that our client will be held in contempt of court and potentially jailed if they have any contact with any of our Advocate and the first case, I was sent a copy of the order stating that in the second case, we received an anonymous phone call on an answering machine and haven't been able to confirm anything more than that. We went to the Stearns County Court Administration and try to get copies of any orders that would address our interactions with this client and all they were willing to show us with a copy of a document that said the file had been sealed we Wrote the chief judge Burke because we felt it was important to file a motion to intervene trying to get him to let us know how we might do this when we can't even identify the file. We heard nothing from him or from the chief judge of the 7th District. I am wondering how Advocates can Find themselves in a position to file as an aggrieved party when cases are handled this way, and I'm wondering how the Supreme Court wants us to believe that they're actually educating these judges when we're finding cases. Where were actually shut out for my own clients almost in violation of their first amendment rights to free association. I'm just wondering how you think these kinds of things need to be handled a first of all could you folks explain what an advocate is? It is a person who this is the general term person who works for volunteers for an organization, which has the sole or primary purpose in providing help support and advocacy services to domestic violence victims and their children and Advocates functional a different ways and some Advocates special. Doing work with the judicial system either civil or criminal or family courts and some of them do everything most real programs. All The Advocates basically are able to function in any capacity that is trying to help someone find housing trying to help them apply for government benefits as well as helping them to apply for protection orders in the Civil Court as well as communicating with criminal court. So it's a pretty broad job and we know that the justice system works much better in the communities where there is a strong advocacy program. I don't know about the case that was just mentioned here, but I can say that the sea reference the Supreme Court says statements heard of on the role of advocates in its true that the Supreme Court issued a ruling several years ago that that basically indicated that if ale Advocate non lawyer Advocate was assisting a victim of domestic violence in filing for an order for protection that they act did not constitute the unauthorized practice of law. So basically made acknowledge the necessity of Lawyers to get orders for protection for people because it's a it's still legal process, even though up a do-it-yourself one and that same rule also permits us to sit at the table in the courtroom with a person who is appearing it was a victim who is appearing in a criminal court case for example, so that's what we know about what the Supreme Court has said about whatever kids can do in practice to the Villa courts tend to to give the the alleged victim kind of the benefit of the doubt and some of these things get them some extra help in terms of Advocates and so on so forth. In Hennepin County, we have Advocates working in our office. So it really isn't so much a court-ordered process or supported process as it is one that the county attorney's office has taken on an addition to The Advocates who work in our office. We have three full-time Advocates to work just on domestic abuse cases. In addition to that. There are Community agencies who provide advocacy of some sort sometimes are Advocates work in conjunction with them a particular victim may have a good relationship with a community advocate and so are Oedipus will work in conjunction with them and the prosecutors then intern work with either Advocate or both whichever works best to some extent the focus of the advocates in our office is on complying with victim rights legislation, but what we really emphasized with all right, because this trying to help these folks get through the criminal process to understand what's going on to have a safety plan in place. Those are two things of these two kinds of a verb. Organs is an accurate one. And what's true outside Hennepin County is that taking most communities of the state where there is an advocacy program? It's it's the community-based Friday that he was describing. Most of the prosecutor's office has don't have a lot of In-House support for victim services and victim Witnesses and so on and this work there for is being done by the community-based programs are they don't work for the county or city attorney's office, but they work for a local nonprofit usually and they provide a lot of the same kinds of services but there was Services they provide a much broader in scope than those Services given by an internal prosecutor's office. Advocacy program because it may involve. I mean the work they may do it may include providing support groups and helping somebody find housing and that kind of thing is from Minneapolis to your question place about three years ago in 04 years ago 5th degree domestic assault. I was driving my old girlfriend. To detox who is out of control and she was going crazy in the car. And in order to keep her from jumping out of the car. I knocked her out and it was the worst thing. I took her to the hospital tonight in the police were there and it was the worst time of my life because because if I knew the tools I have now I could have done something about it. I think more men, you know should know how to protect themselves cuz a lot of situations they're not planning on this and they probably don't even have a violent background like me, but But they still didn't know how to deal with the situation and I take more people actually men because they have two guys punch each other. They didn't they don't even show each other in the skies. But if a man barely even punches a girl she really showed it because there's so much smaller and vulnerable and I just think that people should RX, you know, like men should have more should have people should teach him how to deal with these situations. I don't know if those some sort of every time you know in public service announcement or something but to get people aware that that there's other ways to protect themselves to get a third person in there to help them if they can't control the situation or deal with somebody who is out of control and then you end up getting out of control at the same time. What what what is what are men being told to do in in a circumstance somewhat similar to that where they're being attacked? Themselves or they find themselves in a situation where they're losing their temper and so on so forth and then are there any any rule of thumb any kind of education program for men? There is a two or three answer to this. One of them has to do with Once someone has become a violent individual in a relationship. There are a lot of programs available for men who batter education program isn't so on and they they are based on different models depending on which group you're talking about. But by and large most of the really effective ones do assist man in thinking about what their underlying beliefs are about their relationship with their partner do they think that they have the right to control their Partners thinking and talking and actions and so on and and that the right to control is so extreme that it can be underpinned with violence and necessary if they believe that kind of thing then they may very well get into a situation where they are violent so many educational programs among other things help people rethink their beliefs about their propriety of controlling another person in their family. But the other underlying answer to this question is basically that we all have bad relationships are bad times in relationships and times and we are Furious or times we're angry and disappointed or frustrated and even perhaps attacked and the basics of Zoloft and the theory in this field says that in the face of trouble what one does not do is respond with violence. What when does is absent himself from the room or leave the house or a call for assistance or something else to avoid engaging in a violent and criminal act? And so that's basically there's two responses to that. One of them has to do with one's beliefs and the other is just being careful about not being a situation where you were you might respond with violence. I could just have to that briefly in and expand a little on what Loretta said again. Lee from kind of the criminal justice. Angel a person does have a duty to retreat when they were attacked by another person if at all possible under the circumstances if they can reasonably do so and that duty to retreat really translates into the notion that you don't get to retaliate if someone attacks you you can defend yourself if necessary, but before you actually take steps to respond to the other person with physical violence, the law does impose a duty to retreat that's a difficult thing to apply in every situation the facts can vary widely in a person's perception of their ability to retreat and so forth may vary widely to but if a person takes a swing at another person that doesn't entitle them to me or respond with a full-scale attack in and respond in the domestic setting. It's really important to remember that generally speaking the man is going to have a Physical advantage and any self defense that a person may use does have to be reasonable under the circumstances and where there is a disparity of physical power between the man and the woman or if it's two men to women whatever it might be. It's also important for the person to remember that I think people when they're contemplating what's an appropriate way to respond have to keep in mind that that disparity of physical power when it comes to a charging a crime. Does that play a role. I mean whoever wins gets charged. Well not to oversimplify me, but this came up in the in the moon trial for sample down in Houston. I mean, it wasn't at least from the testimony at the trial. It wasn't a question that they sound like they were both pounding on each other. The only thing was he's bigger and stronger and so he did a little more damage but That mean that was the argument the trial, you know, actually that that's a comment that will sometimes be made when a case comes in. And again, it doesn't matter whether it's domestic or otherwise that the case is presented on the person who won the fight. So what yeah, it does sometimes become an issue that we have to look at that in every case and try to make a judgment based on not only but the party is say but Witnesses say as well as to whether the conduct of the person who is now being looked at for prosecution was reasonable under the circumstances. We certainly we deal with many many cases where a person has been provoked in some fashion, but their response is so out of balance to the provocation. So excessive that we charge them, even though we recognize that there was some sort of provocation. It's really important. Remember the provocation be at physical verbal what-have-you does not permit the other person to retaliate. So a full-scale attack, it has to be reasonable under the circumstances into the the point of Criminal Justice System intervention in these cases is too full of the first is to ensure that the laws that I've been passing the State against you no criminal Behavior are enforced and that would certain mitigate in favor of charging anybody who had apparently committed a crime the second piece. However is the purpose of it is to protect victims of crime and to ensure that people who commit crime are less likely to do it in the future to discourage them. Essentially. If you take a case where for example two people are assaulting each other you have to figure out whether one was in self-defense or not in that sort of thing and the failure to look at whether self-defense was a motivation could result in a terrible result which would be that the people who are the most likely to be injured tomorrow are treated as the same kind of criminal as the person who Genuinely saw them in dangerous. So you don't have to look at sort of the comfortable assaultive motivations or lack thereof and that kind of thing and making these kinds of decisions. If we want we really want to do is to stop this phenomenon from a crane in this relationship in the future or Loretta Frederick's who is with The Battered Women's Justice Project based in Minneapolis. Al Harris is here as well. He's a Hennepin County prosecutor and was the head of the County's domestic abuse prosecution team. We're taking looking out the legal system handles domestic abuse part of a special week-long series of reports on this issue you like to join our conversation number to call in the Twin Cities to 276 thousand to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll-free at one 800-242-2828. Lydia is calling all the question for Minneapolis fed place. Thanks for doing the series of programs of I've been following a real closely. What's really important? Screw up the witnessing domestic violence in my family of origin and police were called and didn't do anything. None of the men in my family were ever arrested. I survived one domestic violence relationship, which likely the injuries were not serious and I got out in a couple years, but I see that changes coming really slow and I think the legal system has a real role to play in part. Only in terms of protection of victims, but in intervening in a strongway that acknowledges that the balance is wrong and you know may end up saving some of these relationships. I mean every one of the most common things is man who bad or either deny it or rationalize and justify it. They don't think they've done anything wrong. I'm really for mandatory arrest because I think it can be a reality check. I had a friend who A buddy of his was arrested and wanted to get bailed out and my friend said I won't bail you out for that. It was a first arrest. It wasn't a serious injury at that point. It was early on in the violence cycle in that relationship. But because he was arrested he was given probation and counseling and they were able to work that through. Maybe it's because it was fairly early in the relationship. It was like a three-year relationship at that point, but I feel like the legal system has a role to play one of their car when I went to make about the moon case. If a stranger not a woman in the head and choked her to a Consciousness, we would all agree that was a salt my understanding of that trial was she threw a Candlestick at him or something and I just feel like so often what happens if your husband or boyfriend does it to you it's not real violence and I'm for mandatory arrest. I'm a social science student at the you and did some research last quarter around this issue. And basically they saw with mandatory arrest some indicators that there's less recidivism. There's less repeat Because there's a reality check there that says you have committed a crime. It doesn't matter. It was against the wife or girlfriend. So I'm really pro at night night. Once again, thanks in Minnesota Public Radio for doing this fine series of programs and thank you for your call list of whole business of kind of intervening. Is that of Empire Dove intervening using the criminal justice system and in some cases the Civil Justice System where people get protection orders in orders restraining the abuser from further violence is to do two things one is to hold the person accountable for their acts Lydia's right in that many men who better take no responsibility essentially for that act and always put the blame on someone else either the victim for having caused him to be upset or whatever this thing is and so that notion of accountability is a major major piece of stopping the future violence along with three Dilatation which many quarts order for men who batter to go into treatment programs or education programs as I mentioned before and it's really true that the likelihood that you can stop this kind of behavior in the long-run varies, depending on how far into it a person is there are men who better for 20 years who have upon being called up shirt that are for rehabilitation and so on have I change their lives and it's not a certainly guarantee at all associated with the system, but there is there is opportunity out there for change definitely restraining orders. Do they work do people do batterers paying attention to them? Well, that was a bit that I remember. This was a big perennial question a few years ago in when the woman was murdered on the steps of the Hennepin County Courthouse having had a protection order and that summer the Run number for women murdered. All of them had protection are to say thank of America. And what we do know is that for many abusers that civil court order is very effective that it does persuade them to stop at least the violent part of their battering behavior and perhaps not the other non-violent forms of it the urban Institute study a couple years ago in Boulder and Denver Colorado one year after the fact kind of thing and they ask people what in fact changed after you got your protection order what they found was at 60% of the people who'd been ordered to to be nonviolent in the future did comply during the course of that one year order. So if those numbers are at all, you know applicable here, that's a pretty good. No response rate it is appalling. However to think that 40% of the respondents are added to stop being abusive continue to do so despite the court order and a violation of protection order civil protection orders in Minnesota is a crime all by itself a separate misdemeanor with that. The person can be charged with if it is reasonably they violated the orc and so the kind of the teeth that are necessary to be put into a lot like that exists here in Minnesota. But we have to have is enforcement through through law enforcement agencies through prosecutors who are interested in pursuing these misdemeanors have to make sure that respondents understand that a civil court order is in fact something that they need to pay attention to her like that I would think that that would be if you if you've violated one of those orders you would think if you'd be taking on the court itself and and really meant they'd made Hammer you for that. It's really hard to say, I think that varies from Individual to individual one thing I'll just have to what Loretta said is that an order for protection really should just be viewed as one tool to try and protect a woman who has been threatened or actually harmed by some other party. It is not a Panacea. It's not going to prevent someone from attacking you if they are bound and determined to do it. So it shouldn't be looked at as the solution to these kind of things. But only as a tool as to why the courts don't do that. It's really hard to say just to in general terms. I would say that in Hennepin County of first of all is Loretta noted. It's a misdemeanor to violate an order for protection and depending on the nature of the violation. I mean technically it's a violation to call someone up on the phone and say I'm sorry that I have been bad to you and then I have a salted you or whatever it might be that's technically a violation. That's not likely to get the same kind of. Bands from the court as a person who is the subject of an order for protection going to that person's house and physically assaulting them again. I think that's just common sense. But the fact of the matter is I think that in the scheme of the types of cases, we see nonviolent violations of an order for protection are not looked upon like a lot of people as being very serious and I think on the surface that's probably accurate but I think what we all need to remember when we look at these kind of violations is that when a person has been ordered not to have contact with someone and they are willing to violate that order as you've been you call it a court order which to most of his songs like a serious thing that that should be a red flag for people that a person's level of obsession if you will with a woman or his willingness to totally disregard those kind of things should be a red flag that those barriers aren't slowing him down and in My opinion I think opinion of most people in the system. They should get a strong response. Unfortunately, when you look at the hundreds and thousands of cases that we have in the scheme of things these may fall a little bit by the wayside Todd. You're a question or comment Place how you doing today? My question revolves around the opposite end of the spectrum. What what's in place at this point when you're dealing with women that abused the system or use the system to do not to gain their own ends as far as accusations of domestic abuse. Falsifying charges things like that, you know cuz I I know of situations where you know what I could be in my home and if my wife is mad about something she could literally you know, while I'm asleep scratch your face make a call and I go to jail or in a situation involving right now. I have a fifteen-year-old daughter and I'm and I'm trying to deal with custody issues with with for minor children and the daughter ran away from home and took off to you at the mother under court order. The mother was on recorder to have no contact with the children at that point. They went to a different County and the mother made all kinds of accusations about child abuse and and end in domestic assault against the kid and verbal abuse emotional abuse. And your pricing 11 years ago. I had been involved in a domestic abuse with the mother. I don't get too deep into that but it was dealt with that issue and I and I agree that you know, it's it's a bad thing. You know, it's a bad thing to hurt a person that you love and it's a bad thing to try to control and can't is it? All right. Thanks. Is this a fairly widespread problem? We're charges are bandied about to to make points in other areas, but it's something that we have a concern about. It's difficult sometimes to be sure how many times is that that claimed that charges are being thrown out there for some ulterior motive. How often is that valid and how often does it not it is really difficult to determine it is something that we hear a lot Todd mentioned child custody situations. And and that is something that we are wary of claims are often made in both Direction. And they don't necessarily rise to the level, even of assaultive behavior, but one parent may not allow the other parent to see the child in a divorce or separation situation claiming that the other parent is abusing the children some fashion. What we have to do a really nice cases is a prosecutor has to sit back and really try and make a judgment about the allegations that are being made and whether there is any evidence to support them. This is one of the difficulties in domestic abuse cases, they tend not to happen out on the street corner where there are lots of Witnesses are they tend to happen in the privacy of the home and she often times one person's word against the others and from the criminal point of view, at least that what that usually comes down to is that if one person is not particularly credible and their story doesn't seem to be corroborated in some fashion. We probably aren't going to file criminal charges in that kind of a case. So that's really I guess. Whether it's a man or a woman that really doesn't matter the Safeguard really is that before criminal charges are filed by prosecutor has to make some sort of judgment as to whether there's a reasonable prospect that they can prove Beyond a reasonable doubt that the person committed a crime and if you don't have some reasonable belief that you can do that then the person shouldn't be charged. There is no I met as L indicated there was this occasionally raised objections to the remedies that are now available for victims of domestic violence the objection being that it's so easy to get them because all you do is lie and make something up in the court will believe you not only do the proof problems for themselves at Al's already reference that is to say you can't get something from the court unless you convince the court that you deserve it. But the other thing is that there is no evidence that there is more lying going on and a People alleging domestic abuse or child abuse or whatever. Then there is lying in any other kind of Court proceeding where to get any other kind of relief. I mean, so as long as that we don't have any reason to to show that in fact that the level of falsehood in this field are bigger than they are anywhere else, you know, the notion of making the remedies more tight or her to get her something isn't warranted. I'm marrying your question. Please have this time and I think we have come a long way in 10 years 15 years, but we still have a far ways to go but I'm concerned about is the Greater Minnesota and the law enforcement. Do they have mandatory or is it locally decided whether the police have and educating or a training or a sensitizing to responding to a domestic abuse and does the judicial system have any of that in Greater Minnesota or is that kind of left up to the locals and it's kind of a local municipality by municipalities in it. Well certain parts of it are his training made available to police and prosecutors throughout the state police officers are no licensed by the state does part of that process. They have to participate in Continuing Education and Training and domestic abuse is one of the areas that is offered to police officers. I don't believe there's anything that mandates that they take their training in that particular area as opposed to send some other and so there is there is an opportunity for a police officer who chooses. How to take advantage of that training I think they can do that in the same is true of prosecutors. We have to participate in continuing legal education, but I don't necessarily have to take it in domestic abuse. I don't even have to take it in criminal law necessarily saw it there is a wide latitude on that area and somebody wants to avoid it can to the best of my knowledge we go ahead and with regard to the Judiciary the question 2 was raised and the Judiciary around the state has made some attempts in the last of five or six years to provide training to its members of the bench on these issues criminal and civil and that serve the wide range of these and kids with a lot of other areas that judges are supposed to learn about and so it's it's hard. It's hard to keep Professionals in this field up-to-date and trained and I think frankly that it is up to those professions to monitor themselves to ensure that they are providing just necessary updated training for the members on a very regular basis M. Some do it better than others and and it's so the Bureau of Criminal apprehension, for example, a does almost annually of a swing around the state and provides training in a cup of 3/4 places on domestic violence a full day law enforcement training and as well as local organizations battered women's organizations and stuff have brought in trainers and done local training around the state also. So there's a lot of ways in which officers can be trained and certainly Chiefs of police and Sheriff's departments should ensure that every single one of their officers get regular training in this matter because it's one of the most difficult things that handle and they need to be up to speed on it earlier today suggesting that the police officers a group or more. Going to be batterers. Is there any proof of that there is no proof of that to my knowledge. What is true? Is that the implications for a battering victim who's being beat up by a police officer are extremely serious because as you might imagine, where do you turn for help if the person that you call when you call nine-one-one is the buddy or co-worker of your assailant your chances are that you will even seek assistance are relatively minimal. I've talked to many battered women around the country who were involved with police officers who are battering them and it's just one of them are terrifying examples of how this can it can happen. And in fact as well as indicated in your earlier story, there are now a police department's law enforcement agencies around the country that are developing internal policies for how to deal themselves with their officers. Who do this kind of thing. I mean at what point do you suspend them when you get wind that they're engaging in this Behavior due immediately put them in a batteries to run program. And pull them off the kind of a Duty that would potentially put them into contact with batterers and the other women responding to calls because I mean it it if you have a law enforcement officer for example has a tendency to steal on a regular basis. We wouldn't think it was appropriate to give them a job ensuring that nothing else stolen from someplace, you know, so assuming a law enforcement officer who thinks it's okay to beat up his partner. I to respond to a domestic call is seemingly not as good as if it's increasingly noted by law enforcement into the thing need to figure out how to do this stuff internally with a battered women's Justice project, which is based in Minneapolis. Al Harris is with us. He is a Hennepin County prosecutor spell eight years working on domestic abuse cases. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call from City area number is 227-6000. If you're calling from outside the Twin Cities one eight hundred two for two. 2828 Noah is calling from New Ulm. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. I have a couple of comments. I don't know all of the circumstances that the lady called about but apparently yes. And so it was that she was informed anonymously Vin verbally about a court order that barred her from contact with the lady of the person she was assisting I have some real I think they have to be more to it than that guy some real problems with an order that they claim to be binding that isn't formalized and some fashion and the open to access. If not by the public at least to the person who is reportedly restrained. I really wonder why already who was being assisted hasn't sought relief question in my mind whether the advocate has any standing crazy. You should the other thing I wanted to say is the whole field in my own observation. There's a confusion about the notion of abuse decorated misuse and over broad application of the term battery in a practical matter. It's a variation on the old sticks and stones may break. My bones xcetera a really is an outsider and most people are willing to break up the relationship. How can you meeting fully and effectively and arguments between people that don't The level of an assault or actual physical contact I'll get off and let you come in with a caller who checked in earlier talking about a fairly specific case up in Stearns County short of people leaving these relationships. What is a practical matter canli legal system do to try to prevent further incidents of violence, especially verbal and emotional violence. If you from the criminal aspect as Loretta noted before we do in in the felony cases, which is what the County Attorney prosecute. It's probably in about 99% of the cases where a person is not being sent directly to prison. They are required to participate in some sort of domestic abuse counseling program. It may be called anger counseling or any number of names may be given it but what it's really design. Try and do is give a person the tools to deal with anger. We all get angry. That's a very natural thing. But how we respond to that anger and what tools were used to deal with that anger are the important thing in that maybe the thing that separates people who actually physically assault their Partners from people who get angry but know how to deal with it and walk away in his excuse me. Can you be charged for anything other than hitting a person and leverage if I started screaming and hollering day after day and and really pretty abusive verbally, but never hit anybody. Could I face charges of NE saare depends to some extent what your physical actions are accompanying those verbal things that threats if you will by themselves May trigger criminal charges and assault in Minnesota law can include the mere threat to immediately harm a person. There's also a felony statute called terroristic threats, which says that if you threaten to commit commit a crime of violence for the purpose of terrorizing a person that that's a felony and so the words may not break bones, but they can lead to criminal charges and then all of the things that flow from that in terms of treatment and and so forth are available and conditions of probation that's regularly required. There are situations on you. You will suggest us where words may not rise to the level that will support criminal charges in those kind of situations. If the police are called it would certainly be prudent of them to recommend people that they consider getting counseling of the type. We've described in this sort of counseling is available to people without being court order to go there maybe funding issues and how do we how do we pay for that issues? But the counseling is available to people without being directly court-ordered into those programs. Larry your question. Yeah, I have to, it's one. I I believe pretty strongly a mandatory arrest. I think that you know, someone were speeding and and and that person were arrested that I think they would think very seriously about whether they would never speak again. I don't I'm not saying that arrest out of be for every type of time but this is certainly a crime where you want to stop the repetition of it in a mandatory rest would have such a greater impression than Simply Having the visits in a police officer and saying don't do it in my other comment is that I think it would be really important. It's maybe it's been done already but staff police officers and law enforcement people going into schools to talk about violence and the criminal criminal ramifications of and it's one thing to to talk in school about not being violent us. Another thing to have Prosser police officer or judge or prosecutor in their think this is something you can put in jail for. Don't do it have any programs like that in the schools and Loretta there a lot of different kinds of school-related programming and I'm not familiar with whether there any of them include officers going out to schools. But there are several models in use in the state and around the country for teaching a kids of different ages about domestic violence about proper respectful relationships with people and that kind of thing and but I don't know whether or not they involve police officers, although it seems like a reasonable Notions to include police officers in that but I want to know about this mandatory rest Sinclair's talking about what we know is that a Minnesota we've rejected on a couple of occasions the proposal to to adapt to Statewide mandatory arrest statute that would require an officer to arrest if they had a softer had probable cause in the reason being that in the states that have adopted mandatory rest of the Statewide locked they've had an immediate spike in arrest of apparent victims of domestic violence and a lot of other Probably inappropriate arrest and so what we what we decided to Minnesota Legislature has consider this a few times at The Battered Women's Coalition wood Stakes positions on these kinds of matters in the state legislature has decided that we would prefer to stick with mandatory rest as a community by Community decision so that where there's an advocacy program in place that can help for help Monitor and watch for a sudden rise and inappropriate arrest under a mandatory wrestler that it's a safer and better way to go about that. So it's a bad. I think the reasonable Prospect and in a community where there is a strong Advocate available. When does the system press on pressing charges when the victim says well, no, forget it. I can only speak for Hennepin County really and there are some variations on the situation. You described it. When you mean press on I'm not sure where they mean, press all the way to trial going to trial where a victim has expressly stated. I don't want to go to trial is something that we do not do a lot of we have done it we tend to do it in situations where first of all we of course have to think that we can Prevail. I have some reasonable chance to Prevail a trial but we tend to do that more where the nature of the offense is a very serious one particularly if there are serious injuries involved weapons involved things of that character what we have traditionally done more of really is try to construct a resolution to a case of that sort where we can get the induced the defendant to plead guilty to some sort of charge put him on probation or maybe even put him in prison. For some. Of time but primarily these are probationary offenses with the idea being that the person will then enter into treatment perhaps some serve some. Of time in the workhouse a local jail type facility and that we would then have him on probation for a. Of time with the prospect of going to prison as a punishment for violating conditions of probation the conditions of probation can range very far and wide no contact with the victim or her residence. We may not even let them live within a certain distance of the residents going to treatment having alcohol treatment if that's appropriate your analysis would be done on a regular basis to make sure that they're not using drugs or alcohol a wide variety of things and generally our approach has been to try and reach an accommodation with the victim in those cases of the state and the country prosecutors are actually proceeding in some cases even The absence of victim cooperation to try to prove a case without victim testimony that is to say for example, using the police officer to testify to what the alleged victim sad at the at the scene of the crime through some exceptions to the general rule about not having here say come in so increasing the prosecutors are looking at proceeding but you are the victim wants to or not based on whether or not they have proof Beyond A Reasonable Doubt. Thanks so much for coming in today. I'm sorry. We're out of time that discussion Our Guest today Al Harris Hennepin County prosecutor. Loretta. Frederick's who is legal counsel for The Battered Women's Justice project. We'd like to thank all of you who been listening through the hour again, especially those of you who called in or tried to call in with your questions and comments are know. Sometimes you dilated to get that busy signal it gets awfully frustrating but we we we appreciate the effort we will be rebroadcasting this program at 9 tonight on the FM news station. And of course more stories throughout the rest of this week coming in from around the country on the issue of domestic abuse. We're going to turn our attention to infectious diseases State epidemiologist. Michael osterholm will be here. I'm John Raby on the next All Things Considered will continue our series on the state's treatment of the developmentally disabled. It's all things considered weekdays at 3 on the FM news station k n o w FM 91.1 you're listening to Minnesota Public Radio.