Well, the Bosnian peace talks continue at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio a senior official with one of the Balkan delegation said earlier today that the talks conceivably could continue most of this day. The talks were supposed to been to this morning with or without an agreement but the state department extended the deadline and now it says a final announcement won't be made until sometime this afternoon Hamline University history Professor. Nick Hayes been several months in what used to be Yugoslavia and he has been keeping close tabs on the peace process is with us today to discuss the talks in Dayton and the u.s. Role in the pit. NATO peacekeeping force that's been proposed to help Implement any peace agreement neck. Thanks for coming by. Do you have any secret sources in Dayton right now to bring us up-to-date on what's going on? What's your best? Yes. No, I don't really my best guess is that they are probably reached an agreement on the Constitutional structure the overall legal structure of the entity that will be called.Bosnia in the in the future State and from the serve side in general usually serves are more skillful at the Diplomatic table. That's what all inside sources say and my hunches of Slobodan milosevic up the territorial Auntie over the last 3 days knowing that there be tremendous pressure put by the Americans in this case on the bosnians not the crow as there's no longer territorial division with them, but the territorial demands slightly into two key areas knowing that his odd were best at the last minute of probably getting some ground on that. But what a pair of stuff happened is that the Bosnian government absolutely refuses to compromise on these two pieces of territory, which are basically the status of Sarajevo and the northeastern portion of Bosnia, which is a small strip of territory. That would connect the Serbian the Bosnian Serb held territories which incidentallyWould be the location basically were American troops also would go in the final settlement. There was some talk that what they would end up with later today is an announcement that constitutional issues have been agreed to and they're going to put off the territorial issues. Is that kind of an agreement agreement at all know. It's an agreement to keep on trying to agree at least create some basic legal agreement for talking about the state of Bosnia itself. Not one of the think the issue it has not been for project in terms of a whole settlement. It's been to approach it piece by piece and in terms of the overall War Gary we have more or less facilitated.A diplomatic settlement of the two key Powers Croatia and Serbia itself each week bring brought a newer concession the last week the cross and serves reached an agreement on what called Eastern slavonia the last us herb held territory within Croatia and just over the weekend the croatians Apparently conceited a small sliver of land-grant the serves access to the Adriatic Sea. And is that process goes as the serbs and croats more or less reconcile their differences. It puts then increasing pressure on the bosnians who are increasingly isolated in this process to concede step one two, three steps more but the long-range future when we look at the political structure at the Constitutional structure calls for a collective presidency. This is really a model taken from the old Yugoslavia. That is each ethnic group is allowed that that's a collective present presidency by committee and the executive chair of the presidency. Whatever one might call it then rotates among the three groups will that in effect mean to have no Central executive power at all? And what were clearly seen is something of a constitutional fig Leaf over what is clearly the ethnic subdivision of the country long term of there have been suggestions that what's really at work here is the car lots and serves as carving up Bosnian for their own purposes, and that would be the end of it. I'm that's the fear and it might be what what seems to be going on is to make that process slower. So that occurs later rather than sooner and in the process, it gives the core Bosnian Muslim entity time to stabilize perhaps time to arm itself train itself so that it could in the long-term perhaps survived with some kind of lettuce a small Bosnian Muslims State around the center of Bosnia round Sarajevo what's happened now is so you have What's called the Bosnian croat Federation with in Bosnia itself. This is supposed to be a federation. But the truth is that the Muslim population is loyal to Sarajevo the croat population within Bosnia itself is loyal to Zagreb the capital of Croatia. In fact, they voted in the last election in Croatia. Now that those groups that the Muslims and the crow as have the right according to the current Constitution agreement. The better rate with Zagreb Croatia if they wish the agreement on the Bosnian serbs is not the same the Bosnian serbs demand that they have the right to Independence if they should wish and the right to eventual. I was Serbia itself if they should which and what seems will leak out of the last 3 days is that the Milankovitch said basically know you'll get a ton of me and independence with in Bosnia, but you will not get the right yet the Federated with Serbia and my guess is it's inevitable that you're going to see this process in which in three to five years a Bosnian Serb entity will Fed rate with Serbia proper and Montenegro, but the Diplomatic process is simply designed frankly to give the Muslim population some breathing time some stabilization time and a better chance at survival. There were reports of Dayton that the Bosnian government was not only demanding the u.s. Lead the effort to lift the Embargo the arms embargo so that they could rearm but that in fact the United States Train the Bosnian Army and Matt equipment with us arms and I'll does that is that likely to have been demanded and if so, is there any reason to believe that's going to come to pass as well as the man itself has been on the table for a long time and ending in point of fact, if you really like paid attention to Senator Jesse Helms remarks. It's not exactly unheard of in United States. A number of people get married in Congress has to makes more sense to arm and train the bosnians rather than send US troops and that report was was issued as a major position of the bosnians. In fact, there was a leak yesterday that apparently the United States was going to make some kind of military submit commitment to support the bosnians that we only got half the story over the last 3 days because the Belgrade government openly announced that it was giving support for the retraining of the Bosnian Serb Army logistical support infrastructure support to compensate for the losses. They suffered to Nato And so what's your ETA was basically saying no is you don't look we don't need a you enforce. We don't need NATO. We don't even need need United States troops. We just need to be trained in armed and let us militarily balance ourselves off with the Bosnian serbs. And the truth is the long-term that is their only hope of survival. So it may very well be if an agreement is reached it may not include the use of any kind of NATO peacekeeping force that we've heard so much about any kind of agreement will almost inevitably include in American peacekeeping Force. If it's there's not an American peacekeeping Force there will not be there will not be a peacekeeping force at all. I mean, but what I'm suggesting is that there may not be another there may be a solution other than an increase of foreign military presence there that is simply an agreement to arm and support the relative parties to create their own balance on the field. Is it your sense that the three sides here actually want peace or do they simply want a truce at Best Buy little time and then go out again. The two key players are Zagreb in Belgrade and respectively president rootsman, the croatians and president Belgrade and both now see their interest overwhelmingly at the Diplomatic Cable in peace. Churchman for example has gained everything he really could hold for on the military line. And the last part of Croatia was gained diplomatically last week in the agreement to reclaim Eastern Sylvania 220. What is more faces significant political opposition on the liberal and left within Croatia his last elections are Gillespie weeks did not go as well as he wanted even when he was in the flesh of his military victories that certainly send a political message to him that the Buddha Croatia is a mood towards more piece. If you meet him after his glorious military victories if he didn't win the plurality expected it showed that his political opposition is growing and it's growing on the left in the last of it also has based his political survival. Now, I'm becoming the man of peace. That is the man who can lift the economic sanctions Disturbia the man who can return normal life. I mean, it's ironic that most of it after all in 1989 90 91 Rose to put up. Power primarily is the voice of war and expansion and now he consolidates his position on the cries for peace in a diplomatic settlement. But there's a catch here. He also faces political opposition at home and his own position for the most part lies on the altar Nationals, right those who say he's sold out our brother and serbs in Bosnia and Croatia. That's where his problems are coming from plus who knows how many could be as high as a hundred and twenty thousand serve their being resettled in Serbia proper from his former area. These refugees coming in mobilize soldiers coming in he has a serious political problem there. It is better for him to be at peace time to deal with these political problems rather than for him to being an extended conflict, especially now with a fairly well-armed Croatia that he cannot simply dismiss and going to take out a cheap easy Victory as he did in 1991 or 1992 one last question before we get the collars the charges of war crimes in Bosnia. Are they like To be swept under the rug at the altar of a some kind of an agreement and this peace settlement coincides with the Hogs the workroom crime tribunal at the hog, trying to move ahead on the prosecution. And what was it a moment ago Gary the American approach has been piecemeal kind of separating. It's quite clear that the Diplomatic signals from Washington are that they do not want the war crimes to go all the way to the top of Belgrade. They don't want Milankovitch indicted. They're probably not too enthusiastic about seeing it going much further up the Croatian side and this is evident from purple to things. I mean, they've said number one that they would not share CIA intelligence information on the loss of its which is necessary for his indictment. They said for whatever reason this was an American National matter, so they're not apparently revealing Documents that they have that that we have used routinely another cases. We've used it against the to indicted Bosnian Serb leaders radovan karadzic and thought I'd come ladage the general the Bosnian Serb Army. and also the except forgot his name Richard Goldstone, I believe the Chief Justice of the war crimes tribunal has more or less said, I mean not explicitly but he's complained about the possibility of deal-making by the diplomats to Grant immunity or in affect plea bargain with the principles and he has said adamantly there should be no such deal-making but my guess is the likelihood that we would see A serious indictment of a loss of which is pretty remote now because he's become to essential to the Diplomatic process. I guess today is Nick Hays or teaches history at Hamline University. He spent two she was at least a year or a year from Summer to Summer over in the former Yugoslavia and has been following situation very closely course, he's been here several times. We thought today would be a good time to have him back because today we're supposed to get an announcement out of Dayton Ohio is the weather there is in fact been an agreement worked out to end the war in Bosnia. And if so what that agreement might I might be about the state department had said that the announcement was going to be made one way or the other either that an agreement has been reached or the talks had collapsed and of course, we'll keep you posted through the afternoon as information becomes available out-of-date mean while we're talking about the peace process what it looks like or what might happen what might not happen and we invite you to join my conversation to 27. Steinhausen is the Twin City area number to 276 thousand. If you're calling from outside the Twin Cities, you can reach us toll-free in that number would be one 802-422-8284 Scholars from Saint Paul gym, go ahead. Please say you're in a half ago two years ago. And the other thing is it seems like the Republican Congress or the republicans in Congress have opposed everything that Clinton has done in foreign policy is just a matter of policy and one other thing on people often think of Vietnam and this doesn't seem like a Vietnam situation. It's like all the major Powers the world against people inside of state. Is there a similar conflict that happened like this in the past? I think comprable to this may well I mean for the living there is an analogy to Vietnam. It's not a military analogies a political analogy that an elegy is that what the Surfside knows is that the longer they prolong this the greater the tension between the executive and legislative branch in American government the greater the conflict with public opinion. And so, you know the longer they go the more they make a political football out of the issue of should American troops be committed or not. It Just naturally Works in their favor. So I mean the point is the analogy to be at 9 medical if not military the military situation would be quite different and they also it's not my role here. I'm going to International commentator to comment on American politics, but other Republicans are glossier had it both ways. I mean the year-ago senator Dole received a great deal of publicity in the ex-yugoslavia for calling for a more aggressive forceful Roll by America and NATO. And now in effect the Republicans have indicated that they will best be reluctant to support a more active American Military involvement in it and frankly that's just simply politics and all the other side knows over in the ex Yugoslavia. They know that just simply American politics which has the overall effect of Simply undermining America's credibility and either the Diplomatic and Military solution to the problem. Let me ask you this. If US troops were sent to Bosnia to maintain some kind of a peace agreement would they be special targets for anybody or would they be welcomed by all three sides and essentially? Allowed to do their job without getting shot at well. First of all national opinion about the Americans the Bosnian croat are basically favorably inclined would probably pretty sympathetic to their presents Tatum anti-American feeling for any American of pasta serve territories are Belgrade is running extremely extremely high so they cannot expect let us a welcome Tour of Duty even if they're not targeted in surveilled areas and it looks like if they do go they are going into one of the real nasty little areas Tuzla which lies north of Sarajevo towards the Croatian border. It's right on this near this Corridor area that connects the Serb held territories that we mentioned before it's quite vulnerable to artillery attack. There was this incident light Spring Mill Cafe mortar shelling ultimately weather 79 casualties killed in the attack on to Isla. It's very bold. I've been there a number of times it's quite a easily targeted place and I would guess that that's part of the whole Point America is deliberately being put in an exceptionally vulnerable position one that also requires its exposure directly to the serves as opposed to putting them away. I don't know somewhere you like getting along the Croatian areas are done by Dubrovnik her up north in the insulin and there's going to be a piece but won't let me be more clear about that all along what's been at issue here is not necessarily just the situation of Bosnia. It has to do with the nature of the NATO alliance the European community and America's diplomatic role in European affairs. And NATO are America's leadership of NATO and NATO's ability to act and post-communist Europe requires that America provide the initiative that NATO provide the muscle that brings the Balkan War to a settlement. That doesn't mean that that's the only solution to settle in that war. If this scenario does not occur. What you will see is a revert to a more traditional carving up and balance of power and it's quite possible given the military buildup of Croatia and secondary Bosnia with a little more time on Bosnian side that in point of fact, they will almost already there military stalemate. And that situation can continue on indefinitely but that is not the scenario that for the larger issues of Europe one would want to see because the model of a conflicts the model of these. This kind of ethnic violence National is claims over boundaries. I mean, you can see the similar problems breaking out and any number of places the Turks with in Bulgaria Romania Russian problems with former republics. We do not want to see a situation that basically creates all of these small spheres of military conflict that eventually allowed simply to be resolved by military means what we want to see is some form of European military and diplomatic leadership in a collective role that can basically create a model and I guess if you will please from above Bob your question, please. Expansion. I'm sure you spoken with a gentle Mackenzie and the colonel Ron last night their Viewpoint. Also, there's a direct descendant of control of Kansas. He leaves the start of the struggle by cancer behind testicle has the most of the humans they can find secretary Eagles Burgers assessment of the situation that mr. Muffin. It is really the same ball at all slime balls. It would be a total mockery you like dealing with Hitler trunk. I just wonder if you could well, you know, I'm trying to separate my personal Impressions, I guess from what I think goes on in the minds of the state department and let you referred to as a general McKenzie for dinners out of of Canada archon and eagleburger of her to let's talk about archon. Just remote How to explain you know, you will be entirely blunt. I guess I do agree with the color that is one case we can say we have a completely reprehensible character a man indicted for crimes including murder a bank robbery across Europe prior to the floor. He has a group called The Tigers. I forgot to other another adjective that comes with it, but the Serb Tigers it's a paramilitary by a band of thugs in the early stage of the war his group. A lot of them were criminals were hired their paid very well committed some of the most atrocious acts in 91 92. They were sent into Bosnian Serb territory against the crowd and Bosnian forces this summer again, they have been primarily present and Eastern slavonia occupying that last piece of Croatian territory and one of them by the way has with two of his men have been indicted in one of them is in fact in confinement in Austria. And when does it need to have a war crimes tribunal indict him? He's under investigation around the country. He really can't travel outside territories. I guess it are color would buy some I did not hear the interview with MacKenzie, but I assume he's distinguishing Mackenzie and eagleburger Mackenzie after his tour has the commander of the UN forces in the ex-yugoslavia. I'm has made more or less a mission to preach that all sides are equally guilty and reprehensible. There's a lot of controversy about Mackenzie and I have to confess I'm not wildly enthused. I'll stop being sarcastic. I'm rather opposed to McKenzie's point of view. I have certain reservations about his Integrity where he receives his income from and there's been a few investigative reports that he's profited fairly generously from some proserv organizations and so on and so forth and his Tour of Duty frankly was not the most distinguished chapter and you in The number of incidents of corruption that occurred in under his command and nothing effective was done. But MacKenzie's position is to try to make a message that all parties are reprehensible and we should support none of them. Eagle Burgers Broly, right. I mean if you're making personal self-assessment of Slobodan milosevic, the Belgrade leader, he is the primary political force that engendered the disintegration of Yugoslavia. That is as a political actor who took advantage of it. He is the one that mobilize the two key forces that made the war a nightmare Ultra nationalism among serbs and the Yugoslavia national Army. He is the one that said in 1991 at the cross want to secede while they can have their independence, but they can't take a portion of the serve Nation with them whatever that meant, you know that they would take historically sir populated areas with them and so on. And he is the one that in effect Concord 1/3 of Croatia utter destruction the first major piece of Destruction November 1991 of hookah bar in eastern slavonian. Absolutely reprehensible act by The Eagles love National Army. He's the same guy when the course of this summer gave up all of that territory without her even though you did nothing to protect the serbs and now he's even diplomatically negotiate away that city of hookah bar that supposedly was so important. Should we be negotiating with him? I don't know if asked me personally would I employee of the state department? Probably resign rather than negotiate with him. Does he appear to be essential to the peace if parent Lee it is what is more I'll guess the bottom line is the Zagreb government has indicated that they will proceed with diplomatic recognition as soon as the peace settlements in plays and of Zagreb can deal with them, I guess weekend as well. He's been the designated spokesman for all the serbs the Bosnian serbs included doesn't that an effect. Granted this whole recognizes his demand for a greater Serbia in effect. Even though they may still have a line there that says yes, you control a you're all going to be part of Bosnia. But if he's the guy the main guy me what difference does it make it puts the truth to the lie that he's playing for the last two years that'll give us love National Army Belgrade has nothing to do with the military campaign. And these are independently elected people alarm armed by themselves and all of this type of stuff which of course all along was complete nonsense. Everybody has always known that the military support and in fact the political support that come from Carthage to the Croatian serve leader am out of tissue by the way is now in Canada obviously were basically there only because they had a loss of a child support. And yeah, I think it is obviously if he represents all of them it kind of confirms the idea that we recognize that all of the serbs have some common political interest. But we also know that serve also have a history of political does heat disunity Division and it's even if we grant that there's internal obstacles that can well prevent the consolidation of these various groups. There were three now, there's only two left that is the Croatian served or no longer a factor that for internal political reasons would prevent their coming together in a cohesive State and just for the record. It's fairly obvious that a lot of uncut attach the head of the Bosnian serbs. I had to have been there as milosevic his stooge originally started making his own. Hey or the last year was one of the Milankovitch became more pragmatic and engaged himself in the Diplomatic process step. Step of the last nine months or so. Well, that's at the same time. That's when I got up on keto did the Bosnian Serb leader began to try to steal for himself the image of the defender of serve glory and Define nato shooting down planes taking hostages and all of this and he played that card fairly effectively which may explain by the way why these are very shrewd opportunist to people why the last of its last summer basic had pulled the military plug on them that is gave him no military support and let him and basically undermine by military means the political gains you at the end of last year were expecting announcement out of Dayton Ohio this afternoon on whether there is a peace agreement in Bosnia or whether the talks have collapsed over there some kind of partial agreement has been reached and of course as soon as we get word that announcement is coming from Dayton, we will we will be providing coverage of that to information me while we're talking with the nikkei's who was been following this path. Just for some long while now and if you have a question or comment about the prospects for peace u.s. Role and implementing a peace agreement. If there is one give us a call to 276 thousand in the Twin Cities outside the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828 Allen your question, please some of the history of the the breakup of Yugoslavia and I dread the number of articles that he pointed to a two two two two factors. One is an internal economic crisis brought about his results. He was already had the large International loans and major economic problem that for the force the government to Institute in the state RT program, which brought down the standard of living in to some extent week in the central government and limited its ability to act as a mediator between what is sensed. You were the the Republic so when they were together and that is result of being Economic crisis each of the republics began to look for where it could do best in El given the economic crisis internally and with the collapse of the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe with the re-emergence of a of a of Germany with reunification of Germany. Tricoli, Slovenia and Croatia. Look towards Germany and that will make me in a better situation if we were to leave and that the Germany actitud seem to recognize their independence which basically a combination of an internal economic crisis and and what some kind of think of his kind of an adventurous policies by different big powers in the region help to send off the Tinder Box and it really the people of Yugoslavia. We're kind of left in a situation where they they weren't really able to be a part of that. It just was done over their heads to a large extent and I just like to ask about kind of the role of the economic crisis in Yugoslavia before say 1990 and also the role of some of the Powers in the region and how troops from you know, the US Germany Russian soldier can be viewed in a region that they're kind of historically has had weeks states that have tended to be allied with with whatever big Power you don't happen to either be in the region or or playing a role there and fragmentation and crisis of Yugoslavia was an economic crisis that began in 78 79 continue to disintegrate throughout the 1980s part of this also then was aggravated by the economic Decline and collapse and change of policy in the late eighties of what were the Warsaw Pact countries and eventually the end of Communism which was a major lucrative Market simply summarized the yoga slav economy had always been one of the models in jewels of the Socialist world in the sixties and seventies it began to suffer a series of economic problems in the 80s. And it simply lost its Niche on the market which was begun of an economic bridge between East and West because I was no longer viable. There's also quite a bit of controversy about the role of Germany in my own judgment as this is grossly exaggerated, but the role is just simply this in December of 1991. It was Germany that pushed the European Union aggressively very aggressively towards unanimously recognizing the independence of Slovenia and Croatia. Many diplomats have argued that this was a serious mistake that it should not have been done without special guarantees of the rights of minorities with in Croatia specifically serves and many diplomats blame the Germans for then the resort to force by the serbs because they feared this was kind of the extension of an Old World War II axis of German influence and power and if a listener has a point, but maybe it needs to be expanded about foreign rolls a historically since the 1870s Russia has been the Ally and protector of the serbs historically the austrians and then the Germans later are the friends and benefactors of the slovenians in Croatian is probably inevitable. By the way that that's that's going to be the case in the 21st century that North What Was northwestern Yugoslavia will be at least economically and culturally formerly part of the central European German Spear of influence and I would guess Serbia, Romania Bulgaria I probably will remain a kind of traditional friends of Russian power the question that was implied and I I don't know that I can really answer. I don't know that there is a serious public opinion research did public opinion in Yugoslavia is a whole favor the dissolution of Yugoslavia. The answer would probably be number one certainly in Slovenia and Croatia. It was a pump a strong strong public movement of spontaneous movement, either for secession and independent or virtual autonomy within some kind of loose South Slavic Federation, or I thought that was not something imposed from above that is not to say that in some areas. There is not a strong support. Certainly. One of the ironies is the Bosnian Bosnian Muslims for the most part. We're the ones who were most loyal to the concept of Yugoslavia because they probably knew that they would be the odd persons out in the event of a disillusion even even in tonight. Even into the War in 1991 is Becca pitch was saying that the Yugoslav National Army will protect us that is there actually believe that by that's why in part. He didn't arm or prepare for a conflict E38 it would show it was loyal it was not following this croat model and so forth and you still find what over there they call you go in the stall chicks people that are nostalgic for the old Yugoslavia there certainly a minority in the Croatia and Slovenia that much I can say but it certainly is a point of opinion and you know, it's not to dismiss entirely that some people would have preferred that the Yugoslav State somehow survived is the Bosnian government and I guess more specifically the the population in Sarajevo still pushing the idea of a multi-ethnic state are they given up on that blue dress at the complex that occurred over the last week is the Bosnian government itself is fragmenting Muhammad Rodger Bay the Ambassador at Large. The Minneapolis-Saint Paul this summer certainly one of the most persuasive International figures in public opinion as it would you probably know that resigned this week is official reason was that it was necessary to put a Crobat in the government to Bosnian croat, and he was just being a nice guy to create a vacancy but everyone knows that he was basically opposed to several the territorial concessions that were being made it an effect was moving the state towards basically ethnic state that he strongly supported the idea of a molten national state. They prime minister Harish logic strongly Advocates. The territories must be maintained that are multi-ethnic and I guess the best way of representing. This is the city of Sarajevo Itself by one of the largest Croatian populations within Bosnia is in the city of Sarajevo are there is also historically I'm not even talking about the areas controlled by serves but within the Sarajevo city itself, there's a large Serbian population. And that's why the fight to maintain Bosnian control over the city of Sarajevo is so vital to the idea of a multi-ethnic state at the same time. There's evidence of increased conflict between that point of view and actually he's back of it all the presidents who seems increasingly to tend more towards a concept of a Muslim Army. I he doesn't say that it's it's officially forbidden to say that but much more or the idea of a Muslim nationalist movement. Ruth your question, please. Drop the World Kipozi majorities in many of the Gulf States. I never been able to figure out why they haven't done or do AIDS that they are Muslim Brothers rather than to wait for a date and whatever you have to do. Is there a reason why are they doing are they don't even help considerably. I don't think militarily Bosnia could have survived last year without the aid that came in but maybe you can help me carry the conference on Islamic states that the name of the organization you have certainly been finally made in directly. They indicated last winter that if the UN pulled out they would stay they would keep troops there present to stay in the primary source of arms while there's two primary source of arms to the area. They come from former Warsaw Pact countries their neighbors. But also you're on your on the ship's the arms of Edie Adriatic via Croatia and Bosnia. Next up the Carey. Like people who? Many mixed marriages are those who struggle not to validate the territorial division of the country by choosing a side seemed to me that they're the real heroes are victims of the war depending on how you look at it and I'm not sure anyone speaking for them. Well, it's a very good point and it's a tragic point, but for the most part of the war his first people to identify themselves, which is a real definitely which comes more naturally to cross and serves. I'm speaking to people than Bosnian. So even there there's many cases of it being somewhat reluctant that as they've been so intermarried it come to see themselves as in a multi-ethnic what I can give you an example from your own State the well, maybe they have Mike's R Us from Duluth Center. So Soros and sometime he is he says he's a perfect Bosnian eyes. He's been really craw. I forget that the parsley served at night when push comes to shove it gets let him speak for himself. But Mike I think identifies himself as if you'd like to say Bosnian, but he brought them but I would like to serve uncle but the people that are caught most in this have been the Bosnian Muslims. And by the way, they try to clarify this they now ask because bosniak over the last few months that term is come to identify people that identify themselves with the Bosnian Heritage and they say bye bugs me up in Bosnia Muslim but not Islamic meaning they're not necessarily practicing Islamic Believers. They're just referring to a whole way of life that characterize Bosnia most of the people though frequently interview today. Mentality would say 10 years ago. Did they ever think of themselves ethnically is Bosnian, ethnically the term Bosnian before World War II did not really exist in terms of the census of the ex-yugoslavia. Most people that today would identify themselves as Bosnian Muslims definitely probably would have identified themselves as serbo-croat, whatever their ethnic Origins were regardless of the religious persuasion or just Yugoslavia something else, but I was meeting with an anthropologist to a recently we've done some work on this question in Bosnian Villages over the last few years, and she had said that that wasn't the one for tragic outcomes. Is it people that just had a vague sense of all I'm from Bosnia, but I'm you just love now increasingly say welcome bosniak which means to identify cuddle with Bosnian a Muslim that multinational way of life back to the phones are nice collars for Morehead wedding. Good afternoon gone too far about commitment of American troops. You're opposed plenty of men to send to the Balkan situation and I feel the Balkan situation is strictly a European problem. Not North America's And my question is since genocide has occurred there, which I didn't expect there will be continued in the continued V mistrust. The genocide is created the mistrust and when there is mistrust there, how can they possibly come to any agreement? And If there's mastrack like there is in the UN and they would live up to their agreement to the UN and they can live up to their agreement that the League of Nations and since it's genocide has a card with grated. How can I possibly trust one another thank you very much matter fact that David role of the monitor radio Christian Science monitor journalist who was held prisoner the other day was saying that he's he's absolutely convinced that if the people charged with war crimes aren't held accountable. There's just bound to be continued fighting revenge is inevitable and there's really no point in even going on with any kind of peace talks. Well, it certainly a revenge is inevitable simple Mei many many examples come to my mind. I have a friend. This family is American Crew living in Cleveland. And other son was abroad with me last year on a Fulbright Grant now their families from the city of book of are taken over by the serbs that I I couldn't help but laugh when I heard the settlement and book of our which is that they agree over two years. Of time, it'll be returned to Croatia. But also it's agreed that all current residents will be allowed to stay and some International 4th will police safety and maintain their rights. My friend's home family home is occupied by a Serb. So we moved in and agreement says that they have the right to go back and also that the people occupying it have the right to stay. I didn't know one has any idea how this will be solved and there is there are numerous incidents by the way that clashes that have started over the last two years as the Serb power has gotten weaker of draughts and bosnians returning and they know exactly almost everybody says, you know, they know exactly who did what what house they came What was who my neighbor this guy up here and there's been incidents of violence and fighting again. It's only natural. But I guess the final line and the tragedy is where ethnic cleansing was so pervasive it probably achieved its end in the point of ethnic cleansing was not just to clear the area for the present. It was to guarantee that there would be nothing for a group to return to end. So tragically many will just simply never returned and so as a mass problem will not be effective. It will not be a problem won't be like that have to be relocated back. Well, it doesn't it's not going to happen. Why couldn't deal with this? Well, we wouldn't let it be the simple answer. We kept saying, it's your problem. It's your deal with it. Then there's two reason two factors here. The military vehicle for Europe would have to be NATO NATO is an alliance that relies upon American leadership. Even logistically if you look at the air support necessary, it requires American participation in combat roles by are the second is so we table why doesn't the European Union military force what we proposed that it should go to Nato. There has been a European Union move. They've actually created a small Naval Force but we have systematically opposed that we have. Are you the NATO should be the instrument of collective security in Europe. So it's fine politically and of course it makes sense in America to say it's your problem. Let them solve it. There's no military vehicle other than NATO which requires America's participation to solve it and then they began to think other scenarios. I mean, so well who was individually I think of how we would react if Germany decided unilaterally to take action hungry for examples of major player in this Vision many Hungarian minorities have been victimized in this war hungry's borders are right there. It's been a major conflict within Hungarian politics. Now with the time we should do something in it does actually legally against its own policies. It has been training or allowing Croatian and Bosnian troops to train on its territory and is probably providing supplies or something for him. But you know how hungry I could easily intervene, but I guess to get back to the whole point of the whole point of what this thing about American troops nato in Europe. It all depends on what principle of security what should be the international structure in the post-communist world. If you want to maintain a tow if you believe United States still should be especially in the post communist-era the leader of kind of the new European American civilization, whatever we would call it. Then you the United States has to show it has both military credibility and diplomatic leadership. This isn't to say that there aren't other ways of solving the problem and that's been the point all along it consultant to help Europeans can solve itself but it also demonstrates that maybe Europeans don't need the United States at all. And I don't think that is the inference we want Europeans to draw from this war. Although I will say that probably is going to Prince they are drawing is expected later this afternoon on whether a peace agreement has been reached at those talks in Dayton, Ohio. We will be providing coverage when that becomes available in the meanwhile. We're talking during this hour with Nick Hayes history professor at Hamline University in st. Paul who spent the better part of a year in the former. Yugoslavia has been following the peace process very very closely and we might also note that I'm at 1 today on most of these stations those of you can hear a Talk of the Nation Ray Suarez will continue this conversation. And so we hope you'll be able to stay tuned through the afternoon. We don't have a lot of time left, but let me give you the phone numbers again and you Be able to get your question and yet before we we have to stop to 276 thousand in the Twin Cities to 276 thousand or one 800-242-2828. That's the number for those of you outside the Twin Cities Patrick your question, please good afternoon. I have a kind of a follow-up question that was brought up by previous caller and I didn't catch the whole thing. But I'll try to make my explanation quick here. And then ask a question of it has to do with an issue that hasn't been brought out of the table since this conflict began at least through the media and that does deal with with weapons supplies and the countries that are that have fueled this war. It doesn't seem to get a lot of press. I'm not sure if if if we're talking about Western Europe or China Russia United States, but no we get would you get news reports every every year about leading weapon suppliers. We don't hear about the people who are supplying the weapons to Various conflicts in this one being within Europe itself. I'm so I'm just wondering if if the professor could comment on that and and and explain that'll be better. If it if it's more of a political game that the media is not willing to discuss or whether it's it's just an element that's very obvious, but that just doesn't collect interest drink a very good observation and it if we look at the problems of the post-communist world with collapse of the Soviet Union in the collapse of the Warsaw Pact among the many issues that come up. I need to be like this word mean when the tragedy is that ultra-nationalism new territory and movement appear to be on the political rise. Not on the decline in that part of the world that the other problem has been that into the military danger coming out of the former Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact is not as a military power is such but it's an arms Merchant and in illegal arms emergent more often than that in this ranges from the possible to list of sale of negativity. To a whole host of weapons and I guess most of their visit the word considerate. So obvious that maybe they don't comment on it, but from from Moscow to Budapest the former Warsaw Pact countries have been the primary supplier of all alarms to the war all alarms and to all parties in the worn-out all alarms. I'm come from other areas and to use the the most ironic example of the Russians per are the primary suppliers of arms to their fraternal brother and Allied serves last met President Putin of Croatia probably flew in the air is in a russian-made MIG jets for Russian hate Attack Helicopters assembly put that a good tourist season the air before good enough to buy the Russian equipment in the Russian seldom ever Weber buys, basically, Nicholas your question, please. I want to come in at miraval to prosecute all war criminals. Whether it's Yugoslavia War II World War. My concern is whether it is Equitable. Now, we are talking about these people that want to be a liberated from Domination by croatians and Muslim and who prosecuted people that cost atrocities during Second World War many of these people are in this country is my principal concern is this being paneled equitably? Head of the same principle of the Nuremberg trials. Of course, it is. It's being handled with kind of a symbolic Equitable manner other a six-by-six crotts indicted last week to try to balance off the overwhelming number of indictments that have gone against the serbs will every criminal ever be prosecuted indicted what I mentioned before martich, the former of Croatian serve leader who is under investigation has not been indicted. I may be wrong in that maybe he wasn't there today. My memory slips me for a moment, but he's in Canada. Let me know. What is anybody will ever apprehended and it is important though. Simply put that some symbolic Justice be meted out and that if there have been crimes committed his crimes committed regardless decide if it falls over political line that some sort of criminal prosecution be carried out. Do I think General blockage the Croatian General who was indicted or radovan? Karadzic the Bosnian Serb? Everything to go to the hog and be tried and incarcerated or whatever know but remember there's a very powerful political weapon here kind of hitch and Jen Lada to Bosnian Serb forces can't travel they can travel in Bosnian Serb territory. They can probably go back to Belgrade but in effect, they're under local arrests in the same would be true of those relations who are indicted. So at least for those people who suffer there's some sounds that somewhere at least symbolically some sense of justice would be meted up. We do have to ramp up here. But what happens if these if later today we find out the talks of collapsed that there is there's not only not an overall agreement, but there's is no agreement on much of anything. Well if we take the worst scenario that the collapse of the toxic collapsed almost like it'll be that is bigger than a withdrawals indicator will not go on further. The next step is bilateral settlement negotiated primarily between Zagreb in Belgrade and I'm probably not to the favor of the bosnians. I'm afraid and the war we can assume will start up again or no the war for the most part has reached a stalemate unless there's really two types of problems. I could have her know that the situation Eastern slavonia explodes again that somehow the service do not honor the agreement and a major military conflict is possible there. I don't think likely but unfortunately in terms of the territorial settlements, there's several Muslim areas to the north of Sarajevo that the serbs want that have been defended rigorously they couldn't take him before because the cross our position very close to them now at the crotch choose to be passive. I'm afraid we might see a few more Villages tragically ethnically cleanse this winter.