Each year tens of thousands of Minnesota women the victims of domestic abuse look for help. Some need emergency shelter others need longer-term housing some need help with Child Care Transportation tens of thousands of women look for help each year some receive it many others apparently are turned away. This is a big problem. And of course, there are so many other women who never see any help at all. They were going to spend the hour taking a closer look at the issue of domestic abuse. And what's being done to counter Bonnie Campbell is with a she is a former Iowa Attorney General who is now the director of the US justice department violence against women office. She is charged with overseeing the Justice Department's efforts to enforce Federal Criminal domestic abuse laws and with assisting States and localities in their fight against violence against women. Also joining us today is Sheila wellstone Senator wellstone his wife who is one of the nation's leading advocates for reducing the incidence of domestic abuse and improving services for the victims of abuse and joining us by phone today from Hibbing.Judge, Donovan Frank the chief judge in Minnesota Statewide judicial committee on Family Violence. Folks thanks for joining us. Appreciate your being here. How many how many women are victims of domestic abuse each year have any statistics on that and specifically here in Minnesota? That is such a good question because we don't have very accurate data and I think the violence against women act which I'm implementing really speaks to that by mandating more research police reports across the country are not consistent. For example, someone might be murdered by a husband and it will show up as a murder but not a domestic and so we're not consistent. The one thing we know is that each year. We do gather crime reports and I'll come across the country that each year. We do a National Crime victimization survey and each year. There are many more self-reported victims then our ever reported to law enforcement official. It's that Gap that tells us that this is a vastly underreported problem. And often the victims never interface with the justice system, but they do show up in doctors offices and hospital emergency rooms. So even without an ability to give you actual numbers I can tell you that the problem is a very great one literally is a problem that paralyzes our law enforcement in our judicial process and one which finally were getting serious about addressing now you that there were Seventeen a little over 17,000 misdemeanor domestic assault child in Minnesota courts last year and there were thirteen thousand order for protection filed last year in the Minnesota. That's not to say consist. With some is Campbellton marks how much violence or was because it's generally regarded as a very unreported crime. We have heard more about it. And I think that's fair to say is that indicate that we have a bigger problem now than we once did or simply that we're hearing more about it. This is been going on since mankind womankind began. It's just that as we start talking more about it than we've had more education about it that the awareness there's been more awareness-raising about it that women are starting to report more to talk more about it. So it is just I don't I don't think that there has probably been a huge increase in the Bible is going on in the home. It's just that we have become as a society and its communities more open to talking about an encouraging women to tell what's happening to them. Pause when the OJ Simpson case surfaced now. There are reports that a lot of people have stopped seeking help for fear that they're not going to get any help given the outcome of the OJ Simpson is that just anecdotal information? Do we have any statistics any information as to what actually is going on relative to the Simpson trial? But my hunch is that it's correct. As Sheila was talkin. The one thing that entered my mind is each time the justice system in a community demonstrates that it's going to take domestic violence. Seriously, then reports of domestic violence go up and when I was Iowa Attorney General, I used to say to all the police Chiefs and sheriffs. But if you do all the things we think you're supposed to do to assure the safety and protection of victims and to punish the perpetrator the bad news. Is that your crime rate. At least for the short-term is going to go up. And so I think that has happened across the country. Similarly when something happens that suggests to victims that the justice system isn't going to take battering seriously, they Retreat again and they've been doing this battle for a long time and For Better or For Worse the verdict in the OJ Simpson trial resonated negatively among women who are battering victims because the jurors themselves at least a couple of them indicated. They didn't see the connection between battering and the possibility that a homicide might follow. In fact those of us in the justice system and see that connection every day in the largest single block as a cause of death, sides of women is battering And so it was very frustrating I think and disappointing to us that the drawer simply didn't see the connection. Well, first of all, I would certainly crashing people. What are you a victim or or a victim or or an indirect victim such as a child and a half or a defendant or an advocate or anyone in the system to system based upon the OJ Simpson case irrespective of its verdict. It's an anomaly in my view and and I don't think it should discourage anyone from participating Andre and Reporting. What is really the number one problem arcobaleno society and his domestic violence tonight. I would hope it is strictly anecdotal and it will not have a chilling effect on individuals are coming forward because we are much much better as a court system and has a society in responding and understanding the seriousness of his problem and Five or ten years ago and we're going to keep getting better and it and I would hope that wouldn't be used as an example of why not to report violence. I told her I really want to be clear that people know I totally agree on the Simpson case was unlike anything that's ever happened before or ever will happen again, and I travel this country. There are hundreds of thousands of people who are committed every day and then devote every minute of every day to helping the victims of battering and violence. So for any victim to conclude or infer from the Simpson verdict that they should report to their justice system or they shouldn't seek shelter. That would be just the wrong result. I said, it's anecdotal. I also believe it will be short-lived because there is right now and enormous Focus On a by Justice systems and by communities on how we can all do this job better and we're learning every day. We're making progress every day. And so I would urge victims. I don't read very much into that verdict from Virginia. Judge, Donovan Frank our subject today is domestic violence duties on the line from Minneapolis. Go ahead, please. I am a registered nurse and we of course have to treat as a profession women who suffer both a physical and the emotional effects of of continued to abuse in relationships. But we also know that one of the best ways to deal with something is to help to stop it recently through District nurses of the Minnesota Nurses Association supported the efforts of they Hennepin County Public Health Department to get a resolution passed to return some Focus to having men talking with other men about this culture this expectation that violence is all right, and whether it's in their social organizations Lori in organizations that work have men as large components that we communicate with him about this and begin to develop a movement towards changing this kind of perception as part of quote. What's macho or male and I was wondering if you are familiar Any other efforts or have been participating in of any other efforts to work at this end the prevention end of it of Judy? First of all, I want to say that this is Sheila again that you're absolutely right that we do need to have a man in the community speaking out on this issue. I'm very well aware and I've talked with Bonnie about this that some audiences I go in and talk to her because they are predominantly man there just because I'm a woman it's very hard. I try not to be threatening but it is very hard some time to to talk to men about this topic without a parent to be coming off accusatory. The other is a little weird to say that are all in the violence and we all hang around and and of course not an innuendo when you speak, what would I do when I go in to speak Eyrie is to try to be a piece of the education. I'm really going in talking to groups of men to try. Talk about the Dynamics of just domestic violence to explain, you know, the questions already asked will why doesn't she leave to try to explain how it is so difficult for a woman to explain that if the systems and if the community isn't there to support her that it's very very difficult. I try to go to be a piece of the education about domestic violence and I think with the education we really do we need to have men speak out but we need really need to start looking at working with talk about prevention it with children at a very young age to show and schools at there alternative ways to have conflict resolution, you know your counseling going on to school to try to identify young families at risk public health nurse is conserve a great role and going out into Community into these homes are really working with young parents, you know, parenting is the only job that we get that we don't get trained for it is probably the most important job any of us do to really invest in training people how to be good parents and to working with children to show them alternatives to buy. Balance and try and some way to break. This cycle is yes to hurt her question. A lot of really good things are going on that for example, we are in both the Twin Cities area and recently in the Duluth Northeast Minnesota area a group of community letter mail Community leaders got together and said if we are 90% of the defendants are why don't we have a 3-day Retreat and and why that's good men more involved in education and dealing with a spinal tissue. And so there was a retreat of 50 people from the private and public sector and Retreats are going on around the states and a half to believe will clear on the country. Secondly their Family Violence consoles are there are being started up through sponsors. Set by the Supreme Court and judicial districts all over the state. We are bringing in both victims and male and female and defendants male and female end of those groups most sentences in the state of Minnesota on domestic assault in order for civil order for protection cases hammer and education prevention of consequence component that require if it's man in the 95% man to go into a men's group and they dressed exactly what that nurse or purple identified as one of the issues. So those things are going on and on and I think we're learning or is that are we get more of those groups up and going on is that men beat up women? But let me change the question just a little bit what gets a man who beat up women to stop doing it. Is there anything that's been proven to work? Although it's impossible to answer might be easier to answer then the second one. First of all, I think it's important to realize that most men don't batter most men don't rape and as a consequence a lot of of our discussion of these issues doesn't resonate with many men, but it's always resonates with women because women live in fear of crime all the time most women adjust their behavior during the course of a day to be sure. They're safe men rarely do that. We don't know it all the factors that cause men to batter. I have a hunch there is no magic bullet. There is no single answer demographically. We know however that it crosses all kinds of lines class lines racial lines religious lines, but it has I think historically to do with cultural sexism a real belief that man can control women and indeed have an obligation to do in afterwards won't do it. Well, then at the bottom line, they're bigger than most women and so it has its roots in cultural traditional sexism. It was even at one time sanctioned by our law permitted a man could beat his wife so long as he didn't use a stick bigger than the thickness of his thumb so strange that seems to Today, that's the problem and it's a long-term problem at the second question is such a frustrating one for most of us because we don't seem to know very much about what makes them. Stop many of them have substance abuse problems. But those are separate problems and stopping the substance abuse will not stop the battery. We are right now exploring what is going on around the country in terms of how we manage batterers Behavior. So that couples could get back together an awesome victims really want that they just want the violence to stop and so am I answer seems even to me wholly inadequate. I think it's the correct answer unless somebody either she or judge Frank can add to that the truth is we don't know. I'm a lot of it has to do with the frustration of living but that's something we all encounter. Next colors from Bemidji Nicollet. Thanks for taking my call. I like a farmer collar and a nurse and I'm an adult child of a battery and a survivor of one marriage and 1 relationship. That was abusive. I your point just raised about what makes them stop interesting self-imposed. I spoke with a group of court-ordered batterers. I am one other woman and I think it's this group. Will of course. It's court ordered to get them to stop. I was really amazed at this entire group of man and speak to having two complete stranger women speaking to them about what this did to their lives and as human being these men most of them were in tears. They like the victim seemed to feel they were it was a isolated thing. That was their spouse and that are there girlfriend. It wasn't I think they were shocked to find out through a lot of similarities and that might be something that in in the state might be further explored. But I have one point in a couple quick questions in our local area here a couple weeks within the last two weeks of front page news on Hunter's papers that County support for a local battered women shelter has been cut. It seems to me out State as we're finally referred to which is the majority of the geographic area of the state is usually passed over somehow. We're from being up here at things to me if it were looked at by population level. We probably may have a higher incidence by population of Allure. Ironia, that's one of my question. The other is what could be or might be in place on state and federal level monitor that kind of losing ground in this desperate gauge to keep these lack of support their souls important from happening and I'll hang up and listen to judge. Could you a talk about the out State Minnesota and what you see is if a problem since you work directly daily with women who live in in more rural areas about the about the question. Nicolette ask a question. The first question is there is there more of this at least in a per-capita basis in rural Minnesota. Then there would be seeing if there is there more per capita domestic violence generally speaking in rural vs Metropolitan America. My experience I would tell me know that there doesn't seem to be a dramatic difference just like your doesn't seem to be as dramatic difference with respect to the incidence of alcohol and drug abuse geographically except for maybe parking here and there and separate from the issue of the shelter which I suppose Sheila & Gamble address. What would I feel about Allstate in rural Minnesota or any state is that and it sounds like a cliche I suppose that was at that communities it all raised families and communities stop violence awareness and to make a system response at the victims and we have seriously is his what the approach has to be you have to have resources, which is what I think the caller was concerned about but I'm the victim on what you said. Is a victim she's absolutely right. We just started we meeting Northeastern Minnesota and Duluth specifically we started last month a Victim Impact Panel in these cases and just because of what she said and I believe that is a cost-effective energy and stuff in there in the right direction, but I don't believe there's more per capita being back to maybe if anything the other way when crying but I would defer to gamble in the shelter. Let me just that I've never seen any data that suggests much difference at all in the incidence of domestic violence and Rural or Urban America and I'm from a real estate. If anything people in rural America think it doesn't happen there and getting them to address. It is a difficult challenge because they're more isolated and with Who are victims rarely have the kinds of services that might be available in more urban areas of the violence against women act with which I work everyday. However next year fiscal year 96 will have funds especially for Rural America. It's not a lot of money probably 9 million 10 million dollars, but I think every bit helps and that again will be a 6-year program a five years. I guess the through the the year 1990 also even more generally not specific to Rural America. The violence against women act grant program goes to the states. Over the. Of 6 years. It's a 1.6 billion dollar program, which really is meant to provide those resources whether it is domestic violence teams with police department or Sheriff Department's or whether it's training for judges or prosecutors or more victim Services of those monies go really almost dollar-for-dollar right from the federal appropriation to state governments. And that the reason we did that is because communities for reasons. We don't understand always have not given a high priority to these crimes but even though is is Judge Frank so correctly said it could well be the most important criminal justice issue in our country. It still hasn't been taken serious until recent time and what other quickpoint the International Association of chiefs of police today murder Summit a while ago and out. That murder Summit studying. Why are homicide rate is so high. I came a report and a series of recommendations and their most important recommendation was that if we're serious about reducing the homicide rate, we have to have more battered women shelters and we have to take domestic violence seriously because so many homicides of women about 30% nationally are by their partners are former partners. That's a huge chunk that almost always I think the judge and Sheila will agree. We have ample opportunity to intervene before homicide happens. If we're taking it. Seriously, please do the police generally take her seriously and can they actually protect her? Yes, there is a pence a lot on where the woman lives how much how well that sheriff's department or police department has been trained. But from what I'm seeing there are more and more police officers. Yes that do understand that go in and Minnesota police many of the police forces have mandatory arrest pop policies many police officers will go and you know, what used to be that a woman would make the call the police officer would arrive and say what did you do to make you mad but I don't think that happens very often anymore. You have many more police who understand the Dynamics who make the arrest who right on the spot will connect that woman with services that she needs or will leave her the card for the number that she can call to get the help there in the community to really be sort of that first step with her to give her the option if she wants to go further to get Protection Services. Get connected with with a shelter or with an advocacy program that you know that she can do that. So I think we've made great inroads as far as the response of police. I was in southern Minnesota meeting with sheriffs and they said the sheriff of this at this particular County said that after listening to women talk about the horror stories of what would happen sometime went on an officer with a ride to her home that they totally revamped how they did those calls that they trained every officer instead of sending in the newest the newest person on the fourth day was started to sending their most seasoned officers out because they started taking these calls very very seriously funny can speak to this so can the judge but I do think that police forces and Sheriff's departments are really becoming educated and taking these calls very seriously. It is a crime. This is the other thing we have to understand beating your wife is a crime it's not That the takes place between a man and a woman this is a crime has been committed and we have solutely have to treat it like a crime. Sheila said Minnesota specifically Duluth has had their the first mandatory arrest. Policy in a in a couple of things happened that they weren't counting on the first day of sin addition to a mandatory arrest and basically that was just a statement that let's treat this crime like every other crime namely if there's a robbery or burglary you don't go up to the alleged victim and say would you like us to arrest a person will put let's let you decide they just took that burden off for the situation. They made the arrest the other thing that happened. All right is the incidence of Diana's aunt in a home is the leading cause of injury to police officers across the country when they were trying to be a peacemaker instead of make the arrest if they had probable cause and move out and I notarize situation every department has done that has reduced drastically the number of Officer related injuries and death over the last decade. I most dislike me to sort of had this policy since it's practically 1980 so immensely. We're talking about domestic violence today our guest today, Georgia. Donovan Frankel George's from Virginia. Minnesota. Sheila wellstone is here. And Bonnie Campbell is visiting Minnesota. She is the director of the US justice department violence against women office Laura your questions and comments. I really deeply thank everybody for their involvement what they're doing. I was a person that was involved in a terrible relationship not let me do almost every home here within the metropolitan area and the reason being for that was some A woman who helped Matt the my perpetrator and gave him a dresses and once I was moved from one location 20 of the other but that was just an incident and it was at the great personal, I'm I'm over it and I'm very thankful for everybody that has helped me out along the way and I used to be extremely ashamed about it is very hard to ask for help. So I want to thank everyone for for doing what they're doing another, as far as the Nicole Simpson thing. It's just coming out of my own experience. I know that only good comes out of that and it does seem discouraging but truly only good comes out of bad that we had a lot of great stuff that will come out of this and I have a firm belief and what will be done and what will he And a great changes in society and I want it really want to thank you for your part in that and when the facilitator had said, you know, why do women white men abuse women my would help me understand my whole situation was it's out of fear, and there's only two emotions. There's love and fear until I truly found out what love meant. I didn't know what love meant until I found out what that was about I could die. Remove myself from the situation and learn about love and reduce the fear of my life and understand how that person operated and let go because they are very fearful people. They're operating out of black and they see it through Power in order to gain that something outside of themselves and controlling someone else is easy access for them to know all the frustrations and such an I just really want to thank you again for what you're doing and those to me are real common denominator. See you either fear or lack and a lot of what they eat other woman has talked about was called triple ization. It's a perfect. Thank you for your call. Do most people who seek help get help like this woman. Ultimately Deadpool or are there a lot of people who are looking for help who? Aren't getting it. I think my my answer is most people who seek help get all kinds of help, but it's hard for many of us to understand what Laura just said and I would thank her for her courage just in calling women get in a dynamic with their batterers the chips away at their self-esteem and they ultimately feel like it's their fault and they don't seek help and lots of times if people would just ask along the way they would open up and talk about it. But most of us have been a culture rated not to a very quick example. I talk to my own minister in my church about what we could do for battered women and both The Minister's started saying a prayer and including the victims of battering and many women in my own church people. I know quite well and never would have thought would be victims of battering. I started going to those pastors and talk. About the hell in their personal lives, I think women who go to the doctor repeatedly and have signs that would surely suggest battering. We know now that 86% of the time battering victims tell us if only the doctor had asked I would rather have told the doctor or the nurse than anyone and what was happening to me and that would have been a point of intervention and I want to applaud I noticed we've had two nurses calling the nurses have gotten very involved in this issue. I constantly and I will say it to all those who are listening is a dear friend. If you really have any reason to think that a call colleague at work or friend or neighbor is in trouble at least open the door for them to talk to you if they're ready to do that. Two nurses call and then your question Gary one of the real focuses of many agencies around the state and country is on development implementation the response protocols and there's no better example in the healthcare field or Benny the I think the American Medical Association last year and many groups are revising in Minnesota and elsewhere in clinics and hospitals just not emergency rooms their questionnaire protocol for for screening for violence. Not just for the the adults in the home with the children in that home. And the the response is extraordinary in terms of the increased reporting and referral of domestic abuse by Healthcare professionals to the appropriate authorities. I mean all those things you're a step in the right direction. Yes, women are getting help but many shelters will tell you they turn away a vast number of the women who come So we really do need to have the money this going to come through violence against women to expand shelters work places are starting to train people within their workplace and they are really dealing with women who come to the workplace who have been battered but beyond that we need to really I think make a commitment to good transitional housing. The woman makes the step. She gets into the shelter. She start seeking safety, but what she can't be in the shelter any longer working she do then so we need to have a program a prepositional house and we need to have to figure out how to help this woman have child care if she wants to go back to finish your education, or she can get a job so that if we only do the immediate stopgap when she's in crisis, That's not going to necessarily be all the help. She needs we need to plan ahead to help her with these various steps to make sure that she can become safe and productive and set up her own life again. So we are doing good, but we still have a ways to go and making sure that we are finishing this this so safety effort for her. Hi good afternoon or abusive marriage and people quite close to me didn't even know that abuse was going on. So when I left I got the inevitable question. Why did you stay so long? And at first I felt like I was responsible for answering that question. I felt kind of guilty about staying with that marriage so long and then I just decided I wasn't going to answer that question for two reasons one could put the blame on me and I'm tired of being the victim and number two. That's a question. Is so complex. I oppose way back into how you were raised how you went into the marriage what you was what you thought your your expectations were for the marriage what you thought your role was what your own self-esteem was at the time. But not what I wanted you to address that I haven't heard so far is one aspect of domestic abuse. That is really I don't know what the phenomenon in my own case or if it's true another cases to when I left after 26 years. My husband was flabbergasted. He had no idea why I was leaving because in his mind he had never abused me and he said in so many words because he has he has never broken any bones and he had never put me in the hospital. He had just slapped me and shoved me and kicked me and destroyed things that were precious to me and that was not in his mind abuse. I don't believe that he was saying it's to protect himself. I think in his mind, he really and truly believe you never used me. Is that something that is I, nor do men truly in their minds often times not even believe what they're doing is abuse. I think it's very common and it speaks to the sexism the cultural sex. Isn't that I referenced earlier. There are men who believe they have a right to take whatever means necessary to quote control their families and I haven't been in public forums where men have stood up and said well if I can't beat my wife and my children, how am I going to keep order in my home it it's deep. Rooted in our culture and it is in our religious Doctrine as well. And in most religious doctrines around the world and that's what makes it so difficult to change. It's hard to talk candidly. It's hard to change somebody who doesn't realize what he's doing is wrong and more importantly I think more directly. He probably grew up in a home where he learned the battering is in fact normal his dad probably beat his mom and that was normal. I'd be curious to hear judge Frank's observations about the batter has two C's in his courtroom how many of them really think they're they're wrongly but I agree with what Miss Campbell said that many people and I think it goes down. I think I might have an explanation. Violence is a learned behavior. It's and there's also a high statistical correlation between are witnessing violence as a child even if you want to direct victim of violence, but you watch it happen because the studies would suggest that those young children will often times identify with the perpetrator not the victim of the young age can an infant with a heightened awareness in any type of violence to resolve any dispute. It is wrong it just highlights the education component at a young age with everything from young children to teenage mothers in highlights the education and prevention. That is so critical cuz as a community becomes left her and I have zero tolerance for it. It's more difficult for Generation to come to court and say I didn't know it was wrong and it's my right based upon cultural or religious. That's where I saw my dad or my mom do I think that's that's the icky and that's why the community can't stand silent. The community has an obligation as a group to to raise awareness for the benefit of all the people in it and I think it's getting last night. I honestly do and I think the education is the of the answer in part to that or the long-term terms of the children. What's the current thinking on the best thing to do with children who are raised in a home where there's a lot of abuse going on should they be taken out of the home? Well, they shouldn't be left in a violent environment is the snotty an issue as you'll ever find first of all, you should know that usually batterers who batter women better children as well. And that's a much easier decision to make this is a society that has as its Beginnings the concept of limited government and it's always been limited as to what you can do, but the government Visa V children and their parents I know from having been a state attorney general that we were criticized when we took kids from the home. and we were criticized when we didn't it's a very tough call to make but there I think the body of expertise would tell you that for children to remain in a home where violence is occurring is absolutely traumatizing and you have to remove hopefully the mother and the child if if the husband is the battery or the Mannis the batter that it's it's a very tough issue there then gives rise to issues about visitation and supervised visitation where the mother is often being put in a situation where she has to see her battery because he has a right to see her children as a practical matter judges. With whom I'm enormously sympathetic like judge Frank get to make these decisions every day and they make them on a case-by-case basis, but the the trauma for children who witness violence not to mention the likelihood that we're just transmitting this epidemic of violence across Generations tells us that those children absolutely are not to live in violence and it's often the point when a woman makes the decision to leave when the battery starts abusing the child. Minnesota and around the country and the toilet will take on or attempted Focus if funding is got for your education and in prevention, we are trying to spend more time screening of the presence of Brian runs for the impact on the children cuz we know that the children have been in most cases of Forgotten victims in yet. Be careful not to blame the direct and because of the Dynamics of the violence in the difficulty in stopping it and I think that's the challenge than our ways are the criminal justice system. But to everybody who is a citizen is too don't forget about what's going on because of long-term effect is the incidence of the likelihood of those children witnessing the violent sleep of doing the same thing themselves in the ending of criminals at a young age are doing And our responsibility rests with the children as well as from St. Paul Lewis attorney and as a law clerk at the University of Minnesota, I work for the City of Minneapolis attorney's office at the domestic abuse calendar. And one thing that I saw that hasn't been address for your family and I'd like some some comments is same-sex domestic abuse. I think it's difficult to acknowledge when men batter their male Partners or women beat up with their female Partners to get assistance in the in the shelters or just to Simply have the system acknowledge. The abuse was able to see police reports for they would go to a call or two men might live and you know the same sort of things we might have seen 10 years ago with the same assuming opposite sex abuse, you're saying the police now try to be in her. Diners or somehow Snicker or you don't not acknowledge the abuse that's going on. I just would like some comments from your from your panel on what's the stomach changes, you know, we can make to increase the awareness of same-sex domestic abuse. My my own experience suggests that the shelter system across the country is probably more tuned into this problem in any other system. Let's just be honest and put it on the table there. So a fair amount of miserable homophobia in this country and to deny it just wouldn't be sincere or correct. I know is that attempt all ways to address it is perhaps new to some of us. We don't think in terms of women as battering other women and we don't think in terms of man has as being the victims of a power and control struggle but gender has very little to do with it. It's a dynamic that emerges between two people in an intimate relationship and I think it's it's the same old story. We're going to have to educate the police. Going to have to educate prosecutors have to educate judges and victim service providers and it's a process that is going to take some time. Hopefully it goes on in as we address the larger discussion of violence in our society. It's never appropriate to be violent toward anyone as an initiative and you may need to do it in self-defense and we have a long way to go in terms of just agreeing on that fundamental premise up and I just want to say I'm so glad that you called we all try I think as we talked about domestic violence, certainly, I tried to say that it doesn't matter your sexual orientation that if we are talkin about partnership relationship between two people Weatherby same sex or heterosexual that that same the same Dynamics are there and the very same things happening. These relationships and we have to talk about that and as we look at the legislative policy and we're talking about issues the violence that we always have to include in that the fact that some of the people we talk talking about our are gay or lesbian and I think that I'm so glad the collar called in and brought this up because again, another thing that we need to start telling the secret about to break the silence. It's happening out there to all people and we have to really be inclusive of all people and keep it keep it up and in front of people and talk about it, but we have time for at least one more call Ur dog. Go ahead place. yeah, my point was kind of diffuse by the person that just called but Good, we were discussing moral a panel discussion cultural sexism before there's plenty of heterosexual relationships were males are victims of emotional and physical abuse from females is no place to go. There's no battered men's shelter is out there. There's zero social or cultural support men don't even identified themselves as abuse at work and Social Services for a long time and I just don't do it. You have a panel on until the last call women the two female guess you had never acknowledges that man can be victims of domestic abuse was thing is titled don't mastic abuse. But all we talk about 90% of the hours wife battery percent of the hour with talk about wife battering is because 90% of the time it is the women being abused. Yes. There are men who are victims and I believe that the same resources the same help to get safety the same understanding should be there for the men. Call. It's not you know, there is no battered men's shelter. I can't go to the local battered women's shelter those same Services should be available for anyone who is a victim very briefly. If if a man finds himself in a circumstance where his his life partner keeps picking at him all the time and verbally abusing him and he's getting to the point where he's about to blow his cork. What should he do? He should leave it. Definitely it's much more difficult for a man to even seek counsel or seek assistance because there is this Cultural belief in our society that men certainly are able to take care of themselves. But if a man has properly been acculturated not to hit or not to respond to physical violence from a woman or even from another man. That's a very difficult position that he's put in women do better to have great Sympathy for the color of the violence against women act is titled violence against women. It is gender neutral. However, it is designed to protect men as well as women, but recognize that most of the time women are the victims of what I recommended when I was Iowa Attorney General was well. And there may not be shelter available to men some shelters. Do take male victims others. Don't they're probably our safe houses and services available. None-the-less last quick question for you. Judge, Frank are the laws in the state of enough to deal with domestic abuse considered an application and people following them in a consistent manner is the key get a kid, if you can parents to the other states, we are considered the lack of a better phrase out in front of the problem and have been for some time and that doesn't mean we don't have changes to make but there's been a lot of positive changes made of made for Gap when the criminal justice system wasn't responding as it should as quickly as it should that the order for protection wear with your a lot of effort by Advocates and other political leaders can End up being in the right. I think the laws are there. We can give the protection to the to the public and to the victims as in our children the the resources as the years go on now is a much greater concern to me Cracker resources. Thanks a lot for joining us. Thank you. All of you. Who is the director of the US justice department violence against women office. Sheila wellstone has been here through the hour. One of the nation's leading advocates for the victims of the abuse and trying to deal with this problem. Donovan. Frank is also been with us. He is the chief judge of Minnesota 6th judicial district and the chair of a Statewide judicial committee on Family Violence.