Well yesterday the n-double-acp drop the other shoe after warning State officials for years that the state needed to do more to desegregate Minnesota schools the National Association for the advancement of colored people went to court to try to force the state to enforce its laws group says the state is ignoring its own desegregation Royal and not living up to its constitutional requirement to provide all students with an equitable education. This is a big ruling or a big lawsuit and it's certain to generate lots of discussion already has so we thought we would spend the hour today taking a closer look at the issue of school desegregation in Minnesota at we're going to be talking through the hour with Matthew little former president of the Minneapolis chapter of the NAACP about the lawsuit also joining us long-time board member Tom Lindquist with State Board of Education former chair of the board's desegregation committee here in the studios as well Kurt Johnson share the Metropolitan Council and Minneapolis state. Senator, Larry poggemoeller the chair of the State education.Immediately State Senate. Mr. Little I'd like to start with you. Why is it that the n-double-acp finally went to court on this issue? I know you've been concerned about this about to go to segregation for some while but why no, well, I think that first of all it is really more than just desegregation a part of this suit and I will hold concern is the concentration of poverty within a certain areas of the update the Twin Cities and we know we do not think in spite of the fact that consistently we have forgone to the Board of Education State Legislature and so forth that nothing concrete has been done about that and consistently as you indicatedHaving the rules bear having what we believe the state constitution support but yet it continues to fester and get worse and worse. And so we felt like this time we had no choice but to until such. And instead of allowing Minneapolis to reach the point where some of the larger other metropolitan areas had breached in that regard. We think that the Minnesota the nature of Minnesota the record of Minnesota and allHas the possibilities of Olivia coming to grips the reality of the situation before it reaches a point? Whereby we do have a total isolated division without with with people and it certainly is effects. Not only Chester African Americans but the whole Intercity structure educationally and and what-have-you. It is indeed a game problem and we can and not afford to continue to look the other way in somehow or another that is going to straighten itself out and we've been pleading to do something about this. What would what would you like to see? What what do you have in mind your what do you want the state to do at this point, but first of allWe are asking the state to come. We are asking the courts rather to find that the state had all of the fish you officials that are listed in the lawsuit that has been negligent and have violated the conditions of the stated in the Constitution. That's the first thing and then after that has been saucer and after that has been created then we can come to grips with some kind of realistic and solutions and and although we are not they are not at standstill as far as these two kind of solution to think the Moose can be worked out but one certainly is Metropolitan wider desegregation playing.Rather than this optical department of licensing. The metropolitan area is if somehow another educationally that there was that that was something instinctively different from one the district to the other the idea of having 30th of Summer more districts within a metropolitan area and somehow and never the twain shall meet. That kind of thing at the snot is unrealistic to start with, when questioned your been on the school board and State Board of Education. I should say for a long time now has a has the state.Basically, you're falling down on the job here or have you been working diligently trying to deal with the issue of school segregation, you know, we have tried to participate with all of the parties and their number of parties involved in this this issue to try to reach some sort of a consensus point if you and I and I think that you know, what needs to be recognized is very difficult process in the end. It's one that we've participated in work with the n-double-acp and others on but I think it's it's a matter of the complexity of the issue of looking at the issue of racial balance and educational programming as well as the social economic factors.Minecraft to a new desegregation roll with with multiple facets in it that have never been really incorporated into any kind of desegregation role in the past is is has caused us to go back to the drawing board so many times and moving forward to continuing to work on that that thrust of hoping that through a public policy process rather than through a legal process that we'll be able to reach an agreement with a number of segments is the board still committed to desegregation. We are still working to change the rule that's on the books now to have one as requested by the legislature that focuses education Improvement opportunities to students as well as dealing with the issue of racial balance. Yes. We are committed.Kurt Johnson share the Metropolitan Council Matthew little says that they that any any plan really has to involve the full metropolitan area. Not just a district-by-district. Is there any support their do you sense any support across the full metropolitan area for a for a Metro y desegregation find the right words the big worry I have about this lawsuit is that it frames the question in ways that maybe 20 or 25 years old his communicate to the public that this is somehow about Reese about dispersal about Distributing kids along some sort of formulaic kind of quota. I think the underlying issues here are more of what Matt tends to talk about when you were asking questions just worries about concentrations of poverty and what that does to rip up the fabric of stable neighborhoods. It's worries about kids that aren't learning enough in school and won't be prepared to get decent jobs.I think that's what we're about here. And that's where we would find some basis of shared values. If that's the question. We're putting before the public in the metropolitan area. Are we worried about these things in are we willing to work on them? I think you'd get a lot of guesses a lot more yeses and no, but if we're just going to sue each other about whether we can count enough black and brown and white faces and different schools and file reports about that periodically only the lawyers win and I don't know that we make a lot of progress on this and you should have said the chair of the state senate education committee understand that there is a lot of concern on the Minneapolis school board that the school board feels like it's gotten the short end of the stick. It needs more money. What do you make of all of this our kids? First of all the kids in Minneapolis from your Viewpoint getting an equitable education.I think my first I need to say I wear two hats. I am an absolutist later, but I chair the Senate education committee or cultured and I think I would like to answer that your last question by saying that there are children all over the state who are in poverty who are not successfully accomplishing educational achievement that they need to and I think we need to take responsibility for that as policymakers in a citizens of the state and we have some of that is related to Poverty but there's a correlative is the race and there are pockets of both poverty and racial separation in the state where we are not being successful as we need to be and so I think the way they this lawsuit is framed and I need to be careful how I talk about it because I'm one of the public officials who is being sued here. I I think that the lawsuit is not framed.In a way that talks about the way it was 30 years ago in terms of just race. I think it is talking about results for children, but then also realistically says you cannot cannot ignore race in that discussion. And and I think that's I'm just lettering what I think Kurt was trying to say the focus is on the learning Gap. But it would be naive to say that there is no correlative effect or a relationship to race there certainly is the data is overwhelming. And so we need to as a state step up to the table and talk about this issue in a much more sophisticated way than the than the United States did 20 or 30 years ago, but the dad is pretty overwhelming and we we need to get to come to grips with this and carb solutions that provide education for children that will make their lives better and society that Gary isn't Isn't the question you posted. First of the one that is a most difficult first all the struggle with what can you imagine being done at the end of this process? What? Can you imagine a court order to be done by the state by school districts by the State Board of Education and that's the tough question. We've got to come to wake up kind of grips and acknowledge what the problem is that is what size of a male has some point it out. There has been an attempt to apparent attempt to evade dilates just scraped. And what did it the real the real problem as long as you're not going to acknowledge what the problem is? You can't even start thinking in terms of a realistic eye solution to that problem. And the problem is the combination to add a concentration of poverty within area. Which is driven to some extent by race itself. Let me just explain briefly. Why bring it up that way because it seems to me that among people who might share the value of working on the problem. There is a fundamental Choice here. We could either work on some Grand political structural solution, like abolishing the school districts of record creating a metropolitan wide School District getting the sorts of distribution that break up the concentrations we have now or we could work on the problem with those concentrations, which really is poverty and the loss of stability in those neighborhood. We can work on economically empowerment work on job creation work on making families more intact and neighborhoods more stable and believe then that the desegregation would take care of itself. I think that I don't think that either one of his mutually exclusive. I don't see why we can't do all of those at the same time somebody it's often broached about Well, why not to forget the segregation I think in terms of quality a better education, why not both because we think one play into the other why not do both simultaneously, I see no reason why not and furthermore you have your Constitution. You have your your state rule as far as the segregation is concerned which and why do we make these regulations and if we're not going to live up to it, you know, a zed and Addison African American and the only one who has been live who has been lived under apartheid America. I'm with the I'm kind of disgusted with the idea of having regulations that we'd have no intentions of living up to our supporting even from the beginning all men are created equal yet to head to the slaves in America and that kind of thing which is It bothers me. We have a rule and regulation that desegregated school or inherited Lee unequal of which the State Board house to be fat. The United States Constitution has indicated in the whole thing and yet we absolutely no attention whatsoever. Why hasn't the state either the some of the schools, I guess what 28 schools around the state of been found to be in violation of the desegregation roll. I haven't why hasn't something been done about that. Then the school districts are usually formed by the 15% of it over the district-wide average and my understanding in the end. I think that's a good question is did come up at the last board meeting for the payment was made that current rule was not being actively in forest. And I think what the board had a. At that point time is requested the commissioner of the Department of forward next month with a full explanation of what was the background of the context of of that statement or weather. In fact, that really was a a decision whether it was simply a matter of notification of districts that they are out of compliance and they need to work back toward that 15% ratio be under the 15% right now. We're we're in an early stage of ourselves before trying to understand. Denature that statement over there was some stayed in the right context what's Department's position as you will find that out next month when we have lots of questions here, but I'd like to get some listeners involved in this as well. A lot of people are cute up on our phone lines with the question to come in Saturday. I just want to add one thing back when the original legal action Minnesota in the early seventies took place. I think Minneapolis was at 14% children of color. We now have 25 years later mini Suburban communities that are actually higher. In that percent the Minneapolis was at the time and I think if you put that into that context you start to think about this issue differently. We are we need to re-examine how we've dealt with the issue is related to Minneapolis because we over the last 25 years there were some sex as successes and there were some failures but we have communities all over the state that are now we're Minneapolis was 25 years ago and we have to get our heads out of the sand and we have to focus on learning achievement for every single child and then we have to his also not ignore that there are some correlative effects here because of race and so I just want to put that context in and and it's state why we have real communities that now have those percentages. Also that many apples had a Wilmer for example, obviously the Indian reservations have these percentages. So this is a Statewide issue. We need to come to grips because our economic future depends on whether we can educate our children in a Diverse way so that they can deal with a diverse world and it's a big Challenge and we need to we need to face up to it to the phone calls here. But now this brings me brings me to another Point 20-25 years ago, if if you for example in the Gibbons school if there were two thirds of the kids were White and the other a third were children of color that would be I guess considered to be a desegregated school. If you flip flop that today and say two-thirds of the kids are children's of color and 1/3 are white kids. That would be considered a Segregated school now. Why is that because a little bit of a peculiar reaction, we worry a lot about having too many people of color in a school and yet we don't seem too worried if we have a school that's almost entirely white. Let me let me just let me know in there because we are still not including this other element of which I indicated start with the concentration of poverty as a result and a part of that of course is related to race but not totally there are we find white people are trapped and do those condition which breed crime and all those other things that we hear about constantly and your Detroit U of A East St. Louis and all of those kind of things with the gradually becoming a part of our system in the whole thing. So they are other elements just stood there and then some people have a tendency to narrow the whole thing down to race, but they are more Then that just race race is starting their part of it. That's a no question about it, but there are other elements that's involved. That's that's what I meant the difficulty with the language of this lawsuit because it tends to get talked about publicly as a matter of race when you're exactly right is about much more than that and you got the in many of these neighborhoods. You got folks were their primary worry is whether they can get anywhere on any given day without being shot. It mean fear provide these neighborhood other kids that have been either shot or killed and seems to me that that's where we are to be focusing. I would argue that the legislature took a step forward in 95 with the livable communities act really giving the Metro Council and local government many more tools than we had before to work on economic development in those neighborhoods to work on a better distribution of affordable housing in the edges in the suburbs were there has been explosive job growth We're working on it in ways that we were not working on it a year ago. Is it fast enough? Is it big enough? I don't know but we are working on it. Our Guest today what time about school desegregation in the state of Minnesota and student achievement to specifically focusing on a lawsuit that was for I filed yesterday against the state of Minnesota by the Minneapolis chapter the n-double-acp Matthew little the former president of Minneapolis chapter is with us today Tom Lindquist is joined us by phone he is a longtime member of the State Board of Education state senator Larry pull the Miller from Minneapolis who is the chair of the Senate education committee is here Kurt Johnson chair of the Metropolitan council is joint is first color is from Minneapolis to head all about monies and energies on having good schools regardless of where they are located and if you required that the teachers who work for the City of Minneapolis live in the city of Minneapolis that would increase your text face. What's a little mini? Stop cement again? I just don't think it's some mutually exclusive. I think we can do everything to him Kris the day improve the education and still do something about the D concentration of probity within the system and the system. So I'm I support her completely. I don't know. I have no opinion as far as the living in Minneapolis. I don't know how that would fit into that. But as far as the concentration of poverty, I think that's so I think we can work with that and still have better schools as a matter fact. I think it would help but she does have her finger on the right issue talking about the quality of the result. We could have a very interesting situation here is this lawsuit proceed. Let's imagine that the next legislative session passes. The governor's voucher proposal. And in that also gets in court. Hi be one of the answers. You could put here is a Governor's answer. Let's let all these families choose wherever they want their kids to go. Let's quit ordering them around. Let's quit growing up the universe will these artificial lines of historic school districts, let families choose where their kids go to school. What kind of pattern we get there. Those are both lines again that we called districts that divides a Minneapolis from St.Paul because of Minneapolis from Richfield because I want Street the crossover 62nd Street you in Richfield and we got some kids over there that's closer to the schools in Richfield and they are too quiet not so if you're going to obliterate some of those District Lines, then you're coming toward the position of the NAACP about the Metropolitan. Why does what about your program? No not well, not for say I don't think if it depends what do you think about that? Two of the School District boundary lines. So obviously it's not something that we we can address within the current rules before rule structure that clearly needs legislative solution, but I think Kurt is touched on an issue which is fundamental and what we're trying to do in in the desegregation ruling that is to inject more Choice more Parent's Choice in this whole process whether it be through a system of magnet schools with refused to a system of improving schools within the district, but it's fun to sing District boundary lines, you know, clearly goes beyond our purview, but I think we were trying to do to a choice system is a quality programs in schools in in their communities or through Cooperative agreements between different districts to achieve the same at Marion's on the line. I from Saint Paul to the question. Go ahead State funding formula have an aspect where more money is paid to a school for child from a poor family compared to the money given per child for children from middle income or operating income families that way schools with the concentration of poor kids would have more money with which to reduce class size higher Social Service personnel and teachers aides and so on and also maybe some school districts would suddenly find the influx of children from poor families attractive because they would get less a 30% more funding from the state per-pupil Marion the that's an excellent question. And the answer is we do have a formula that does that is called the compensatory Aid formula. And there has been debate over the last several sessions about how we structure that and whether we should enhance at formula. So I think we are committed to that type of approach. I think there is a recognition that students with less family support or who are in poverty do cost more in terms of getting high achievement. But there is a question whether we've done enough Matthew little if if the state were do significantly increase the amount that it pays school districts who it's from for families with that go a long way in addressing your concern about this concentration of poverty in the in the extra problems those kids bring to the classroom with that. I think it would only add to the situation. I think they approve empirical evidence to prove that Matt Merit to a large extent that it does not The solution is to break up that concentration from the poverty. I think that's the only I think you add to it by just pouring pouring more money into it within itself almost everybody this look at this around the country shares the disillusionment with just pouring massive money into it Camila, Kansas City example is probably the best illustration with hundreds of millions of dollars spent over the last 10 years or so under court order with surprisingly few resulted anybody's proud of a difference here. I don't think policymakers should argue that you can buy your way out of this but I also am concerned about the notion that seems to be developing that equal a education means the same dollars for every child. I just think that's incorrect and I think that we're starting to see in the legislature some effort to try to define the issue that way and I just Spell butesin Astor and so I'm very concerned that yes, we we cannot buy our way out of this. You cannot overcome poverty with just cash or high achievement for children, but you we almost we also have to acknowledge that children who have special needs it cost more money and we have to face them. I agree with that completely. I think that to you. You've got to concentrate on the conditions which are responsible for that. And in the meantime, of course, it's going to require more and some of the economic lead. The best way to do is to concentrate on trying to alleviate the situation that trip that's responsible for that Maya pets are the whole concept is for ice. I would point out there. I do feel Governor Carlson. I had become more and more commonsensical on this issue. And and even with mr. Johnson, I believe the governor some time even though he's a close adviser is? I wanted to make was just a legal status of this case. It's mentioned in the papers now and then but doesn't seem to come through very clearly Federal ruling on on Detroit school system later in Oklahoma City make it clear make it very clear that Suburban communities that have not been cited for discrimination or a hundred no responsibility for any part of our Across The District busing plan anything they get through we'll go to State Court. The federal laws are clear on this we can just say no to this and I think what the people going to start in need to do in my Just to make sure that on the state level we passed the kind of legislation or make sure that we do not have to do cross District busing because this is something that is totally voluntary an optional people should not be deceived. All right. Well, I think that is when people picked up their newspapers or turn on the radio as yesterday picked up their newspapers today, that's certainly something that crosses a lot of people's mind. Is that what we're really talking about here a plan which would require moving students around the Metro area's highest form of social engineering. We are engineering the hell out of all of these kids lives and it perpetuates A system. That really doesn't work all that. Well for anybody, I think the governor's is he says it is increasingly common sensible about this sink. Let's let these families choose and the truth is POL after Pol year after year among African-Americans the ability to choose a school and voucher plans of one kind of mother are wildly popular even more than they are among the white population. Why not? Try that? Okay. Well that mandatory cross District busting is that what we're ultimately ocean at the State Board is looking to it that's not part of the rule that we were discussing at this point. I'm like what the courts likely order that do. You think my words might or might not too I think the gentleman is correct though and is my understanding is it federal court rulings of the past that on a cross bussing issue of That's not part of the solution at work. We're working toward right now. I refuse to life refuse to see why we consider these so-called District Cypress set that they're nothing can be done about them next in stone. We have some. At least I know 30 perhaps you can give me the correct of a number of districts within the metropolitan area hear some of them had as little as three different school three or four different schools. You have superintendents assistant superintendents and so forth and so on and all of those District, it's simply does not make sense from ethernet economic forget all about the desegregation in the whole thing. It doesn't make that it doesn't make sense at all to have all of these districts and somehow or another it is sacrilegious to cross them regardless of the fact that they are some students that's lives even closer. If it happens to be in another's a district and we buy these bottles that we have put up with your totally artificial and somehow another know you can never cross those. I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense and I certainly hope that the court to which are developing now and will continue to develop in the future which are really based on offering quality programs for students are allowed and there are Choice problems right now with students are allowed to cross district lines to attend of the school or the colleges universities. If we build on that the choice element, we don't get embroiled in the other issue of trying to erase school district lines and try to look at other types of organizational structure we go right to the heart of the issue and that is It's students air quality programs that they can choose from at the at the end of the bus ride, wherever that bus is headed. And as you know, the thing isn't the issue we must 90 or 95% of the statue. The state boating is just a red herring it is not it is not the issue. We're talking about its quality programs for schools are going to attract students to those and and I think we we need to look at that terms of crafting of the rule which will encourage that type of solution tissue at 8 rather than a red herring aren't a lot of people concerned that they're their children are going to be sent to a school somewhere purely because of their the child's race. It's it's the the ultimate destination of where those students are going to attend schools. That's the issue. That's the point I'm making. And that's the concern of a people in the Metro we need to do is is is raised their bettas, and I was trying to do earlier in the broadcasting that is to say there is a Statewide issue here in and it is not just an issue that deals with the Seven Counties here. Gary it just seems to me that if you get back to fundamentals on this. The success that kids have is set so early in their lives and we don't concentrate enough on how critical those early and those Elementary School years are in people seem to be reaching agreement that the schools can't do it alone. The teachers can't do it by themselves. It takes families. It takes Community to surround these kids in the way that we did a couple of generations ago, and I don't know how you get very far into this debate without getting back to whether we should Have schools in neighborhoods again schools identified with neighborhood at the elementary level so that it's possible to get back some kind of sense of neighborhood responsibility for both of the kids show up or not or whether they are safe walking to and from the school or not. And the busing conversation kind of gets us into confessing how we let a lot of neighborhood schools just go away because we were busting them all over town anyway, and a lot of people are beginning to conclude. We can't rebuild these neighborhood. We can't make him safe and livable and attract even places where people will put businesses in new jobs until we get back stability and that having that neighborhood school is a key piece to getting that stability back one of these developments your neighborhoods. It's fine. There's no question about it, but we're talking about Integrated equal neighborhood and not neighborhoods that old comprised solely of hug of a concentrated poverty poverty, but I have got no jobs within the neighborhood and all of those kind of thing all the things that we are talkin about have nothing against neighborhoods per se but to a permit those neighborhoods to become more concentrated at it with poverty and end at Menards. He's only you end up talking about instead of neighborhoods. You're talkin about the hoods. How do we help the neighborhood by taking the kids out of them? We are we are that is not the the answer just to take them out and we're talking about others personal to the extent of the expanding and to the to expanding the neighborhoods to permit instead of having them confined in one party ribbon area that they would have had access to throughout the metropolitan area. And there we go back again to these lines which prohibit people from moving and starting to agree with you. I just want to ask people what they want to do and then let him do it. We have got to call her on the line now from the northern suburbs Gary about my Visit that we were throwing around a lot of numbers in and I don't think that the vast majority of the people involved in this date in this debate realized it that in Minneapolis were 70% students of color in the district itself with the 15% rule. That means we can have an 85% students of color school and still be within the state guidelines. Now the n-double-acp gentleman is absolutely correct properties the issue here. It just turns out that most of our Poor Kids R Kids of color Minneapolis and I think we've been jumping around the issue here. I only heard the word apartheid used once but that's a really good if you hear it sounds like what we would some of the gentleman on the show want to do is keep the kids in the low-income areas and not move them out where they can Excel and put the whole time. I have kids in one things we can distribute that poverty and and I just guessed that people need to know that that Minneapolis itself has severe areas of And not just the suburbs and I challenge you Gary to go. Look at the numbers go look at the the ratio of students of color in the school districts around the city of Minneapolis and compare that to the school district in metropolitan school district Minneapolis itself, and you'll be shocked. Let's go onto another call her neck your question. Please are coming direct conversation a little bit to the stamp from the Vantage of local governments. I'm an elected official in a city council in western suburbs. The suit is I understand it is aimed at the State of the State as we are where has recently passed a little bull communities act. The livable communities act asks local governments to step up to the issue and voluntarily sign on to the act or not do so and I guess from the standpoint of elected person in particular somebody in a in a western suburb. I am wondering about the de politics of the issue in the context affordable housing and specifically it really seems to me that there's a bit of a Dodger game going on here between the state and local governments. I agree with the comments even from our standpoint. The western suburbs that we're dealing atkore with an issue actually say the Cat Cora the issue involves poverty as much as race and concentration, but I would suggest that there is a background to to this whole issue of politics. It goes back to the capital and I have a level of frustration as a local official that our choices are being somewhat manipulated here. I appreciate your response. I I believe the colors accurate. I think that the legislature. Has not done as good a job as it needs to in confronting some of these issues. It has been trying. But I do think that it has to some extent try to shove it back on others. Also, it's going to take a joint effort by local officials and state officials and communities throughout the state to work on this but I am not sure the legislature is done as well as it needs to and I would include the governor on that also and I and I don't mean I mean that in a constructive criticism way, I think there's been an effort, but I just don't think we've done as well as we need to I would say Gary that it's interesting to get his comment as a note as a local elected official because given the way we are organized in Minnesota, which I do not expect to change in our lifetime. It really does finally come down to what local communities are capable of doing and are willing to do and in some ways. We have a rather Grand experiment lunch during 95 and she points out where the legislature has issued an invitation for a local communities to step up and do something about their supply of housing for people who are willing to take the lowest paid jobs at that Community produces to do something about all these other issues that create the disparity and create this pattern of separatism, which may be poisonous over the long-term to having a sense of Regional Community. Is minnesotans in 10 minutes? We almost always agree about these fundamental things where we disagree is how to get there, you know what to do who's responsible and at the end of the day, I think rather than giving people orders we need to give him freedom and give him resources and see what they do. I would say though with all due respect that I think we need to be careful of kind of a chamber of commerce padding on a back of the boat minnesotans. There's ample evidence. That racism goes very very deep and and lack of sympathy to Poverty goes very very deep. And I think we need not we should not be too naive. I agree with the notion that we should allow people to step up the best they can through freedom of their will and hope they rise to a higher standard. But if you look at the history of our community just as around the country there take some nudging. I mean people don't file lawsuits because they're just want to have some fun people file lawsuits because they believe that as a group the community and Society has not stepped up to some issues and and I think the n-double-acp I'm going to have to be careful what I say cuz I'm a I'm the one being accused of not stepping up the table partially but I think the nwacp has a long history of calling us all to tasks for inability to rise above some of our own emotional. I agree with you completely and I think that if nothing else, I think that this lawsuit was served as the impetus to let us read look at this thing and realistic terms as far as the NAACP serving that place in the history of America. It has been because believe me if it had not been for the NAACP filing a suit Brown versus the Board of Education. We would still have an apartheid education system within this country for that matter legally. So so I am so I I agree with her and certainly people at that time. I'm sure you had good intentions to but sometime it requires a certain amount of prodding and a call to that conscience and to look at really what is happening. And I think it's time for us to look at that has happened about the concentration of poverty and minorities. What's in a metropolitan areas here and I think it's and I think that date that one of the intent of this lawsuit is to allow make us to look at it to take another look and see if we can not do something more constructive about a lady a ticket caller on the line from Rochester, Tom. Are there some the seems to be quite a bit of talk about rather abstract ideas like poverty Economic Development? At weather seems kind of confused me. Is that the separation we have between a society that pushes almost for apartheid type thinking it's almost gets hard and asking for Afro American Heritage being forwarded black children only adopted by black families and yet at the same time that sort of self-determination. I don't know how you can do anything but condone of a will to self-determination. What bothers me is solo discussion of the role modeling that takes place within communities are specifically I have hard time placing where children relate to people of a black race outside of sports, or maybe the movie industry. Where does that allow room for that child see hard work in the school room and hard work and home at home work as part of resolving this issue of upward Mobility. Mr. Little how how can I don't suppose a lawsuit can address this this particular part of the problem? Can you call her it's obvious that he has little concept of what happens in the black community talked about a lack of a like of Romans in the whole is whole scenario in that regard. It shows his lack of knowledge and if perhaps are some of the stereotypes that has been handed down from whatever Source are you certain if you had four letter you wrote lawyers even want legislative and that's not that's not that's that's certainly not a problem whatsoever. The basic problem again is that concentration of poverty and you will find whether the race is involved or not in any countries are any areas where there is a concentration of poverty you're going to fight a disproportionate amount of crying and all of the other things that we find that God that stays and the only solution that I can think of is the thing that we are dressing in the panda suit. I'm a means of death of dispersing in some way that concentration of positive things we need to keep in mind is that there is excellent education going on throughout the state for all kinds of kids kids of color kids in poverty kids well-to-do kid. There's a lot of that going on and going back to the comment by the previous caller. We're trying to do this in a commonsense way. We have data that The gates that although we're doing wonderfully for a lot of children for about a third of the kids in the state of all Races. We're not doing as well as we need to do and so that I think has to be in the context of what were what the end up like the issues NAACP is Raising and the issues of housing that are being raised by the Met console and mr. Johnson and I think we need to think about all of those things at the time. We're doing all this massive education reform. Yes, there are many successes. We are doing a lot of good things for a lot of kids of all Races and all income levels. We're just not doing a good enough because our task is to have every child achieved and we're not doing for about 30 of the children. We're just not getting the job done. We are just about out of time is still in question. I have to ask you to the Board of Education. I know you've been working on a desegregation ruling new rule. Do you continue to work on that now in light of this lawsuit or does everything going to get set aside while while this issue gets resolved in the courts implications of ramifications of this but in other situations where we've been party to assuage we continue to try to seek improvements in the system and it's so hot my assumption is just based on discussions of the month or two months ago with board members if we're going to continue to forge forward to Craft a new rule admittedly. It may not be able to address all of the issues that can destroy a little as pointed out some of these areas, you know just are beyond our our our domain or capacity to deal with but we're planning next month to continue to review assumptions that we use in the crafting and drafting of the of the new rule respectfully to be in front of legislative committees and in February talkin about the direction then then we're taking about the recommendations of the round table which was which was a very representative of but I'd only the metropolitan area but also outside of my phone are recommendations. What does the what does the board intend to do with that dude at 10 to scrap it altogether in spite of all the time that we utilize in developing that and bring it in. Outside people experts and everything else. What is the intentions their tank as we've discussed in the in the past that there are a number of individuals and groups that have provided us input and advice and counsel in terms of how to craft and develop a new desegregation rule search within that context to follow that inputs at the board has to wait all of those issues as we move forward so we can we are not setting one organization or one group the desegregation Roundtable up as the only group that we will listen to as we try to seek revision of rule. Thank you gentlemen, appreciate your coming by which we had a whole lot more time. We're going to be talking about this issue. I know a lot over the next several months probably years to come but to might as well get started now our guest today Matthew little former president of the Minneapolis chapter. The n-double-acp Tom Lindquist join us. He is a member of the State Board of Education state. Senator, Larry Pulga Miller chair of the state senate education committee has joined us as well as Kurt Johnson the chair or the Metropolitan Council.